The Host

Julie Rovner
KFF Health News

@jrovner

Read Julie's stories.

Julie Rovner is chief Washington correspondent and host of KFF Health News’ weekly health policy news podcast, “What the Health?” A noted expert on health policy issues, Julie is the author of the critically praised reference book “Health Care Politics and Policy A to Z,” now in its third edition.

The formal end May 11 of the national public health emergency for covid-19 will usher in lots of changes in the way Americans get vaccines, treatment, and testing for the coronavirus. It will also change the way some people get their health insurance, with millions likely to lose coverage altogether.

Meanwhile, two FDA advisory committees voted unanimously this week to allow the over-the-counter sale of a specific birth control pill. Advocates of making the pill easier to get say it could remove significant barriers to the use of effective contraception and prevent thousands of unplanned pregnancies every year. The FDA, however, must still formally approve the change, and some of its staff scientists have expressed concerns about whether teenagers and low-literacy adults will be able to follow the directions without the direct involvement of a medical professional.

This week’s panelists are Julie Rovner of KFF Health News, Joanne Kenen of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico, Tami Luhby of CNN, and Margot Sanger-Katz of The New York Times.

Panelists

Joanne Kenen
Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico

@JoanneKenen

Read Joanne's stories

Tami Luhby
CNN

@luhby

Read Tami's stories

Margot Sanger-Katz
The New York Times

@sangerkatz

Read Margot's stories

Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:

• The formal public health emergency may be over, but covid definitely is not. More than 1,000 people in the United States died of the virus between April 19 and April 26, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. While most Americans have put covid in their rearview mirrors, it remains a risk around the country.
• The Senate Finance Committee held a hearing on “ghost networks,” lists of health professionals distributed by insurance companies who are not taking new patients or are not actually in the insurance company’s network. Ghost networks are a particular problem in mental health care, where few providers take health insurance at all.
• Another trend in the business of health care is primary care practices being bought by hospitals, insurance companies, and even Amazon. This strategy was popular in the 1990s, as health systems sought to “vertically integrate.” But now the larger entities may have other reasons for having their own networks of doctors, including using their patients to create revenue streams.
• Court battles continue over the fate of the abortion pill mifepristone, as a federal appeals court in New Orleans prepares to hear arguments about a lower-court judge’s ruling that would effectively cancel the drug’s approval by the FDA. In West Virginia, the maker of the generic version of the drug is challenging the right of the state to ban medication approved by federal officials. At the same time, a group of independent abortion clinics from various states is suing the FDA to drop restrictions on how mifepristone can be prescribed, joining mostly Democratic-led states seeking to ensure access to the drug.

Plus for “extra credit” the panelists suggest health policy stories they read this week that they think you should read, too:

Julie Rovner: Slate’s “Not Every Man Will Be as Dumb as Marcus Silva,” by Moira Donegan and Mark Joseph Stern.

Joanne Kenen: The Baltimore Banner’s “Baltimore Isn’t Accessible for People With Disabilities. Fixing It Would Cost Over $650 Million,” by Hallie Miller and Adam Willis.

Tami Luhby: CNN’s “Because of Florida Abortion Laws, She Carried Her Baby to Term Knowing He Would Die,” by Elizabeth Cohen, Carma Hassan, and Amanda Musa.

Margot Sanger-Katz: The New Yorker’s “The Problem With Planned Parenthood,” by Eyal Press.

Also mentioned in this week’s episode:

• CNN’s “Here’s How the End of the Covid-19 Public Health Emergency Affects You,” by Tami Luhby and Alex Leeds Matthews.
• The New York Times’ “Corporate Giants Buy Up Primary Care Practices at Rapid Pace,” by Reed Abelson.
• Vox’s “Independents Back Abortion Rights. They’re Less Sure Democrats Do,” by Rachel M. Cohen.

Click to open the transcript

Transcript: The Crisis Is Officially Ending, but Covid Confusion Lives On

[Editor’s note: This transcript, generated using transcription software, has been edited for style and clarity.]

Julie Rovner: Hello and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Julie Rovner, chief Washington correspondent at KFF Health News. And I’m joined by some of the best and smartest health reporters in Washington. We are taping this week on Thursday, May 11, at 10:30 a.m. As always, news happens fast and things might have changed by the time you hear this. So here we go. We are joined today via video conference by Tami Luhby, of CNN.

Tami Luhby: Hello.

Rovner: Margot Sanger Katz, The New York Times.

Sanger-Katz: Good morning.

Rovner: And Joanne Kenen, of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico.

Joanne Kenen: Hi, everybody.

Rovner: So the news on the debt ceiling standoff, just so you know, is that there is no news. Congressional leaders and White House officials are meeting again on Friday, and we still expect to not see this settled until the last possible minute. But there was plenty of other health news. We will start with the official end of the U.S. public health emergency for covid. We have talked at some length about the Medicaid unwinding that’s now happening and a potential to end some telehealth service reimbursement. But there’s a lot more that’s going away after May 11. Tami, you’ve been working to compile everything that’s about to change. What are the high points here?

Luhby: Well, there are a lot of changes depending on what type of insurance you have and whether we’re talking about testing, treatment, or vaccines. So I can give you a quick rundown. We wrote a visual story on this today. If you go to CNN.com, you’ll find it on the homepage right now.

Rovner: I will link to it in the show notes for the podcast.

Luhby: Basically, many people will be paying more for treatments and for tests. However, vaccines will generally remain free for almost everyone. And basically, if you look at our story, you’ll see the color-coded guide as to how it may impact you. But basically, testing — at-home tests are no longer guaranteed to be free. So if you’ve been going to your CVS or somewhere else to pick up your eight tests a month, your insurer may opt to continue providing it for free, but I don’t think many will. And then for lab tests, again, it really depends. But if you have Medicaid, all tests will be free through 2024. However, if you have private insurance or Medicare, you will probably have to start paying out-of-pocket for tests that are ordered by your provider. Those deductibles, those pesky deductibles, and copays or coinsurance will start kicking in again. And for treatments, it’s a little bit different again. The cost will vary by treatment if you have Medicare or private insurance. However, Paxlovid and treatments that are purchased by the federal government, such as Paxlovid, will be free as long as supplies last. Now, also, if you’re uninsured, there is a whole different situation. It’ll be somewhat more difficult for them. But there are still options. And, you know, the White House has been working to provide free treatments and vaccines for them.

Rovner: So if you get covid, get it soon.

Luhby: Like today. Right, exactly. Yeah, but with vaccines, even though, again, they’re free as long as the federal supplies last — but because of the Affordable Care Act, the CARES Act, and the Inflation Reduction Act, people with private insurance, Medicare, and Medicaid will actually continue to be able to get free vaccines after the federal supplies run out.

Rovner: After May 11.

Luhby: It’s very confusing.

Rovner: It is very confusing. That’s why you did a whole graphic. Joanne, you wanted to add something.

Kenen: And the confusion is the problem. We have lots of problems, but, like, last week, we talked a little bit about this. You know, are we still in an emergency? We’re not in an emergency the way we were in 2020, 2021, but it’s not gone. We all know it’s much, much better, but it’s not gone. And it could get worse again, particularly if people are confused, if people don’t know how to test, if people don’t know that they can still get things. The four of us are professionals, and, like, Tami’s having to read this complicated color-coded chart — you know, you get this until September 2024, but this goes away in 2023. And, you know, if you have purple insurance, you get this. And if you have purple polka-dotted insurance, you get that. And the lack of clarity is dangerous, because if people don’t get what they’re eligible for because they hear “emergency over, everything — nothing’s free anymore” — we’re already having trouble with uptake. We don’t have enough people getting boosters. People don’t know that they can get Paxlovid and that it’s free and that it works. We are still in this very inadequate response. We’re not in the terrifying emergency of three years ago, but it’s not copacetic. You know, it’s not perfect. And this confusion is really part of what really worries me the most. And the people who are most likely to be hurt are the people who are always most likely to be hurt: the people who are poor, the people who are in underserved communities, the people who are less educated, and it’s disproportionately people in minority communities. We’ve seen this show before, and that’s part of what I worry about — that there’s a data issue that we’ll get to whenever Julie decides to get to it, right?

Rovner: Yeah, I mean, and that’s the thing. With so much of the emergency going away, we’re not really going to know as much as we have before.

Sanger-Katz: In some ways, how you feel about this transition really reflects how you feel about the way that our health care system works in general. You know, what happened for covid is —and I’m oversimplifying a little bit — is we sort of set up a single-payer system just for one disease. So everyone had access to all of the vaccines, everyone had access to all of the tests, everyone had access to all of the treatments basically for free. And we also created this huge expansion of Medicaid coverage by no longer allowing the states to kick people out if they no longer seem to be eligible. So we had the kind of system that I think a lot of people on the left would like to see, not just for one disease but for every disease, where you have kind of more universal coverage and where the cost of obtaining important treatments and prevention is zero to very low. And this is definitely going to be a bumpy transition, but it’s basically a transition to the way our health care system works for every other disease. So if you are someone who had some other kind of infectious disease or a chronic disease like cancer, rheumatoid arthritis, whatever, you’ve been sort of dealing with all of this stuff the whole time — that you have to pay for your drugs; that, you know, that testing is expensive; that it’s confusing where you get things; that, you know, there’s a lot of complexity and hoops you have to jump through; that a lot depends on what kind of insurance you have; that what kind of insurance you can get depends on your income and other demographic characteristics. And so I find this transition to be pretty interesting because it seems like it would be weird for the United States to just forever have one system for this disease and another system for every other disease. And of course, we do have this for people who are experiencing kidney disease: They get Medicare, they get the government system, regardless of whether they would otherwise be eligible for Medicare.

Rovner: We should point out that Congress did that in 1972. They haven’t really done it since.

Kenen: And when it was much more rare than it was today.

Rovner: And when people didn’t live very long with it mostly.

Kenen: We didn’t have as much diabetes either.

Sanger-Katz: But anyway, I just think this transition kind of just gives us a moment to reflect on, How does the system work in general? How do we feel about how the system works in general? Are these things good or bad? And I agree with everything that Joanne said, that the confusion around this is going to have public health impacts as relates to covid. But we have lots of other diseases where we just basically have the standard system, and now we’re going to have the standard system for covid, too.

Kenen: You could have gone to the hospital with the bad pneumonia and needed oxygen, needed a ventilator, and when they tested you, if you had covid, it was all free. And if you had, you know, regular old-fashioned pneumonia, you got a bill. I agree with everything Margot said, but it’s even that silly. You could have had the same symptoms in your same lungs and you had two different health care systems and financing systems. None of us have ever thought anything made sense.

Rovner: Yes, well, I actually —

Kenen: That’s why we have a podcast. Otherwise, you know —

Sanger-Katz: And also the way that the drugs and vaccines were developed was also totally different, right? With the government deeply involved in the technology and development, you know, funding the research, purchasing large quantities of these drugs in bulk in advance. I mean, this is just not the way that our system really works for other diseases. It’s been a very interesting sort of experiment, and I do wonder whether it will be replicated in the future.

Luhby: Right. But it was also clear that this is not the beginning of the pushback. I mean, Congress has not wanted to allocate more money, you know, and there’s been a lot of arguments and conflicts over the whole course of this so-called single-payer system, or this more flexible system. So the U.S.’ approach to health care has been pushing its way in for many months.

Rovner: I naively, at the beginning of the pandemic, when we first did this and when the Republicans all voted for it, it’s like, let’s have the federal government pay the hospitals for whatever care they’re providing and make everything free at point of service to the patient — and I thought, Wow, are we going to get used to this and maybe move on? And I think the answer is exactly the opposite. It’s like, let’s get rid of it as fast as we possibly can.

Kenen: There’s money that the government has put in. I believe it is $5 billion into the next generation of vaccines and treatments, because the vaccine we have has certainly saved many lives. But as we all know, it’s not perfect. You know, it’s preventing death, but not infection. It’s not ending circulation of the disease. So we need something better. This debt ceiling fight, if the people in the government could spend all $5 billion today — like we were joking, if you want to get covid, if you’re going to get covid, get it today — I mean, if they could, they would spend all $5 billion of it today, too, because that could be clawed back. I mean, that’s — it’s going to be part of the coming fight.

Luhby: But the question is, even if they develop it, will anyone take it, or will enough people take it? That’s another issue.

Rovner: Well, since we’re sort of on the subject, I’m going to skip ahead to what I was going to bring up towards the end, which I’m calling “This Week in Our Dysfunctional Health System.”

Kenen: We could call it that way every week.

Rovner: Yes, that’s true. But this is particularly about how our health system doesn’t work. First up is “ghost networks.” Those are where insurers provide lists of health care providers who are not, in fact, available to those patients. A quote “secret shopper survey” by the staff of the Senate Finance Committee found that more than 80% of mental health providers found in insurance directories in 12 plans from six states were unreachable, not accepting new patients, or not actually in network. This is not a new problem. We’ve been hearing about it for years and years. Why does it persist? One would think that you could clean up your provider directory. That would be possible, right?

Kenen: Didn’t they legislate that, though? Didn’t they say a few years ago you have to clean it up? I mean, there are going to be some mistakes because there’s, you know, many, many providers and people will make changes or leave practices or … [unintelligible] …  jobs or whatever. But I thought that they had supposedly, theoretically, taken care of this a couple years ago in one of the annual regulations for ACA or something.

Rovner: They supposedly, theoretically, took care of the hospitals reporting their prices in a way that consumers can understand, too. So we’ve discovered in our dysfunctional health care system that Congress passing legislation or HHS [the Department of Health and Human Services] putting out rules doesn’t necessarily make things so.

Kenen: Really?

Rovner: Yeah. I just — this was one that I had thought, Oh, boy, I have a whole file on that from like the 1990s.

Sanger-Katz: It’s a huge problem, though. I mean —

Rovner: Oh, it is.

Sanger-Katz: You know, we have a system where, for large groups of Americans, you are expected to shop for a health insurance plan. If you’re purchasing a marketplace plan for yourself, if you are purchasing a Medicare Advantage plan when you become eligible for Medicare, and in many cases, if you have a choice of employer plans, you know, you’re supposed to pick the plan that’s best for you. And we have a system that tells people that having those kinds of choices is good and maximizes the benefits to people, to be able to pick the best plan. But for a lot of people, being able to have the doctors and hospitals that they use or to have a choice of a wide range of doctors for various problems, including mental health services, is a huge selling point of one plan versus another. And again, you have these ghost networks, when you have this lack of transparency and accuracy of this information, it just causes people to be unable to make those good choices and it undermines the whole system of market competition that underpins all of this policy design. I think you can argue that there are not a million gazillion people who are actually shopping on the basis of this. But I do think that knowing whether your medical providers are covered when you’re choosing a new health care plan is actually something that a lot of people do look into when they are choosing a health insurance plan. And discovering that a doctor that you’ve been seeing for a long time and whose relationship you really value and whose care has been important to you is suddenly dishonestly represented as a part of an insurance plan that you’ve selected is just, you know, it’s a huge disappointment. It causes huge disruptions in people’s care. And I think the other thing that this study highlighted is that health insurance coverage for mental health services continues to be a very large problem. There has been quite a lot of legislation and regulation trying to expand coverage for mental health care. But there are these kind of lingering problems where a lot of mental health care providers simply don’t accept insurance or don’t accept very many patients who have insurance. And so I think that this report did a good job of highlighting that place where I think these problems are even worse than they are with the health care system at large. It’s just very hard to find mental health care providers who will take your insurance.

Rovner: And I would say, when you’re in mental health distress or you have a relative who’s in mental health distress, the last thing you need is to have to call 200 different providers to find one who can help you.

Kenen: A lot of the ones that are taking insurance are these online companies, and the good thing is that they’re taking insurance and that there may be convenience factors for people, although there’s also privacy and other factors on the downside. But there have been reports about, your data is not private, and I have no idea how you find out which company is a good actor in that department and which company is just selling identifiable data. I mean, I think it was The Washington Post that had a story about that a couple of weeks ago. You know, you click in on something — straight to the data broker. So, yeah, you get insurance coverage, but at a different price.

Rovner: Well, overlaid over all of this is consolidation, this time at the primary care level of health care. Margot, your colleague Reed Abelson had a big story this week on primary care practices being bought up by various larger players in the health care industry, including hospitals, insurance companies, pharmacy chains, and even Amazon. These larger entities say this can act as a move towards more coordinated, value-based care, which is what we say we all want. But there’s also the very real possibility that these giant, vertical, mega medical organizations can just start to name their own price. I mean, this is something that the FTC [Federal Trade Commission] in theory could go after but has been kind of loath to and that Congress could go after but has also been kind of loath to.

Sanger-Katz: Yeah, in some ways we’ve seen this movie before. There was a big wave of primary care acquisitions that happened, I think, in the 1990s by hospitals. And the hospitals learned pretty quickly that primary care doctors are kind of a money-losing proposition, and they divested a lot. But I think what Reed documented so nicely is that the entities that are buying primary care now are more diverse and they have different business strategies. So it’s not just hospitals who are sort of trying to get more patients referred to their higher-profit specialists, but it’s also Medicare Advantage insurers who benefit from being able to tell the primary care doctors to diagnose their patients with lots of diseases that generate profits for the plan, and it’s other kinds of groups that see primary care as kind of the front door to other services that can be revenue-generating. And it’s very — it will be very interesting to see what the effects of these will be and whether these will turn out to be good business decisions for these new entities and of course also whether it will turn out to be good for patient care.

Rovner: Yeah, I remember in the 1990s when hospitals were buying up doctor practices, the doctors ended up hating it because they were asked to work much harder, see patients for a shorter period of time, and some of them actually — because they were now on salary rather than being paid for each patient — were cutting back on, you know, in general, on the amount of care they were providing. And that was what I think ended up with a lot of these hospitals divesting. It didn’t work out the way the hospitals hoped it would. But as you point out, Margot, this is completely different, so we will — we will see how this moves on. All right. Let’s go back a little bit. We’re going to talk about abortion in a minute. But first, something that could prevent a lot of unintended pregnancies: On Wednesday, an advisory committee for the Food and Drug Administration — actually two advisory committees — unanimously recommended that the agency approve an over-the-counter birth control pill. This has been a long time coming here in the U.S., even though pills like these are available without prescription in much of Europe and have been for years. But while the FDA usually follows the recommendations of its advisory committees, we know that some FDA scientists have expressed concerns about over-the-counter availability. So what’s the problem with giving women easier access to something that so many depend on?

Kenen: There are trade-offs. And there are — some of the scientists at the FDA are more conservative than others about, What if the woman doesn’t understand how to take the pill properly? Things like that. I mean, obviously, if we go the over-the-counter route, as other countries are doing, there have to be very simple, easy-to-understand explanations in multiple languages. Pharmacists should be able to explain it like, you know, “You have to take it every day, and you have to take it at approximately the same time every day,” and things like that. So, you know, obviously not taking it right doesn’t protect you as much as taking it right. But there are a lot of people who will be able to get it. You know, getting a prescription is not always the easiest thing in the world. Or if you’re lucky, you just click on something and somebody calls your doctor and gets you a refill. But that doesn’t always work and not everybody has access to that, and you have to still see your doctor sometimes for renewals. So if you’re a working person who doesn’t have sick leave and you have to take time off from work every three months to get a refill or you have to hire child care or you have to take three buses — you know, it takes a whole day, and then you sit in a waiting room at a clinic. I mean, our health system is not patient-friendly.

Rovner: I was going to say, to go back to what Tami was talking about earlier — if pills are available over the counter, it’s going to depend on, you know, what your insurance is like, whether you would get it covered.

Kenen: The cost.

Rovner: That’s right. And it could end up being —

Kenen: But I don’t think the FDA is concerned about that.

Rovner: No, they’re not. That’s not their job.

Kenen: The pill is pretty safe, and these are lower-dose ones than the pills that were invented, you know, 50 years ago. These are lower-dose, safer drugs with fewer side effects. But I mean, there’s concern about the rare side effect, there’s concern about people not knowing how to take it, all that kind of stuff. But Julie just mentioned the cost of coverage is a separate issue because under the ACA it’s covered. And if it becomes over the counter, the mechanism for getting that covered is, at this point, unclear.

Sanger-Katz: But we do have a system now where, for a lot of women, obtaining birth control pills depends on being able to get a doctor’s appointment on a regular basis. I think, you know, this is not standard practice, but I do think that there are a lot of OB-GYNs who basically won’t write you for a birth control pill unless you come in on a regular basis to receive other kinds of health screenings. And I think many of them do that with good intentions because they want to make sure that people are getting Pap smears and other kinds of preventive health services. But on the other hand, it does mean that there are a lot of women who, if they don’t have time or they can’t afford to come in for regular doctor’s appointments, lose access to birth control. And I think over-the-counter pills is one way of counteracting that particular problem.

Rovner: And I think that’s exactly why so many of the medical groups are urging this. During the more than a decade-long fight over making the morning-after pill over the counter, the big hang-up was what to do about minors. Even President Obama, a major backer of women’s reproductive health rights, seemed unhappy at the idea of his then-barely teenage daughters being able to get birth control so easily and without notifying either parent. It seems unimaginable that we’re not going to have that same fight here. I mean, literally, we spent six years trying to figure out what age teens could be to safely buy morning-after pills, which are high doses of basically these birth control pills. I’m actually surprised that we haven’t really seen the minor fight yet.

Kenen: I think everyone’s waiting for somebody else to do it first. I mean, like Julie, I wasn’t expecting to hear more about age limitations, and that’ll probably come up when the FDA acts, because I think the advisory committee just wanted to — they were pretty strong saying, “Yeah, make this OTC.”

Sanger-Katz: I also think the politics around emergency contraception are a little bit different because I think that, while physicians understand that those pills are basically just high-dose birth control pills and that they work in just the same way as typical contraception, I think there’s a perception among many members of the public that because you can take them after unprotected sex, that they might be something closer to an abortion. Now, that is not true, but because I think that is a common misperception, it does lead to more discomfort around the availability of those pills, whereas birth control pills — while I think there are some people who object to their wide dissemination and certainly some who are concerned about them in the hands of children, I think they are more broadly accepted in our society.

Rovner: We obviously are going to see, and we’ll probably see fairly soon. We’re expecting, I guess, a decision from the FDA this summer, although with the morning-after pill we expected a decision from FDA that lingered on for many months, in some cases many years.

Kenen: And I think it’s at least hypothetically possible that states will not do what the FDA says. Say the FDA says they can be over the counter with no age limitations. I can see that becoming a fight in conservative states. I mean, I don’t know exactly the mechanism for how that would fall, but I could certainly think that somebody is going to dream up a mechanism so that a 12-year-old can’t get this over the counter.

Rovner: I want to move to abortion because first up is the continuing question over the fate of the abortion pill, which we get to say at this point: not the same as the emergency contraceptive pill, which, as Margot said, is just high-dosage regular birth control pills. Needless to say, that’s the one that we’re having the current court action over. And there was even more action this week, although not from that original case, which will be heard by the Court of Appeals later in this month. In West Virginia, a judge declined to throw out a case brought by GenBioPro. They are the maker of the generic version of mifepristone, the abortion pill. That generic, which accounts for more than half the market, would be rendered unapproved even under the compromise position of the Court of Appeals because it was approved after the 2016 cutoff period. Remember, the Court of Appeals said, We don’t want to cancel the approval, but we want to roll it back to the date when FDA started to loosen the restrictions on it. So, in theory, there would be no generic allowed, but that’s actually not even what the West Virginia lawsuit is about; it’s about challenging the state’s total abortion ban as violating the federal supremacy of the FDA over state laws. Joanne, that’s what sort of you were talking about now with contraceptives, too. And this is the big unanswered question: Can states basically overrule the FDA’s approval and the FDA’s approval for even an age limit?

Kenen: Well, I mean, I’m not saying they can, but I am saying that I don’t know where the question will come down. Go back to the regular birth control; I can certainly see conservative states trying to put age limits on it. And I don’t know how that’ll play out legally. But this is a different issue, and this is why the abortion pill lawsuits are not just about the abortion pill. They’re about drug safety and drug regulation in this country. The FDA is the agency we charge with deciding whether drugs are safe and good for human beings, and not the system of politicians and state legislators in 50 different states replacing their judgment. So obviously, it’s more complicated, because it’s abortion, but one of several bottom lines in this case is who gets to decide: the FDA or state legislature.

Rovner: And right: Do states get to overrule what the federal Food and Drug Administration says? Well, I —

Kenen: Remember, some states have had — you know, California’s had stricter regulations on several health things, you know, and that’s been allowed that you could have higher ceilings for various health — you know, carcinogenics and so forth. But they haven’t fundamentally challenged the authority of the FDA.

Rovner: Yet. Well, since confusion is our theme of the week, also this week a group of independent abortion clinics led by Whole Woman’s Health, which operates in several states, filed suit against the FDA, basically trying to add Virginia, Kansas, and Montana to the other 18 states that sued to force FDA to further reduce the agency’s current restrictions on mifepristone. A federal judge in Washington state ruled — the same day that Texas judge did that mifepristone should have its approval removed — judge in Washington said the drug should become even more easily available. In the real world, though, this is just sowing so much confusion that nobody knows what’s allowed and what isn’t, which I think is kind of the point for opponents, right? They just want to make everybody as confused as possible, if they can’t actually ban it.

Sanger-Katz: I think they actually want to ban it. I mean, I think that’s their primary goal. I’m sure there are some that will settle for confusion as a secondary outcome. I think just this whole mess of cases really highlights what a weird moment we are, where we’re having individual judges and individual jurisdictions making determinations about whether or not the FDA can or can’t approve the safety and efficacy of drugs. You know, as Joanne said, we’ve just had a system in this country since the foundation of the FDA where they are the scientific experts and they make determinations and those determinations affect drug availability and legal status around the country. And this is a very unusual situation where we’re seeing federal courts in different jurisdictions making their own judgments about what the FDA should do. And I think the Texas judge that struck down the approval of mifepristone, at least temporarily, has come in for a lot of criticism. But what the judge in Washington state did is sort of a flavor of the same thing. It’s telling the FDA, you know, how they should do their business. And it’s a weird thing.

Rovner: It is. Well, one last thing this week, since we’re talking about confusion, and the public is definitely confused, according to two different polls that are out this week — on the one hand, a Washington Post-ABC News poll found that a full two-thirds of respondents say mifepristone, the abortion pill, should stay on the market, and more than half say they disagree with the Supreme Court’s overturn of Roe v. Wade, including 70% of independents and more than a third of Republicans. Yet, in focus groups in April, more than a third of independents couldn’t differentiate Democrats’ position on abortion from Republicans’. As reported by Vox, one participant said, quote, “I really haven’t basically heard anything about which party is leaning toward it and which one isn’t.” When pressed, she said, “If I had to guess, I would say Democrat would probably be against it and Republican would probably be for it.” Another participant said she thought that Joe Biden helped get the Supreme Court judges who overturned Roe. We really do live in a bubble, don’t we? I think that was sort of the most mind-blowing thing I’ve read since — all the months since Roe got overturned, that there are people who care about this issue who have no idea where anybody stands.

Sanger-Katz: I think it’s just a truth about our political system that there are a lot of Americans who are what the political scientists call low-information voters. These are people who are just not following the news very closely and not following politics very closely. And they may have a certain set of opinions about issues of the day, but I think it is a big challenge to get those people aware of where candidates stand on issues of concern to them and to get them activated. And it doesn’t really surprise me that independent voters are the ones who seem to be confused about where the parties are, because they’re probably the least plugged into politics generally. And so, for Democrats, it does seem like this lack of information is potentially an opportunity for them, because it seems like when you ask voters what they want on abortion, they want things that are more aligned with Democratic politicians’ preferences than Republicans’. And so it strikes me that perhaps some of those people in the focus group who didn’t know who stood for what, maybe those are gettable voters for the Democratic Party. But I think — you know, we’re about to go into a very heated campaign season, you know, as we go into the presidential primaries and then the general election in which there are going to be a lot of ads, a lot of news coverage. And, you know, I think abortion is very likely to be a prominent issue during the campaigns. And I think it is almost certainly going to be a major goal of the Biden presidential reelection campaign to try to make sure that these people know where Biden stands relative to abortion, because it is an issue that so many voters agree with him on.

Rovner: And it makes you see, I mean, there’s a lot of Republicans who are trying to sort of finesse this issue now and say, you know, “Oh, well, we’re going to restrict it, but we’re not going to ban it,” or, “We have all these exceptions” that are, of course, in practice, you can’t use. Obviously, these are the kinds of voters who might be attracted to that. So we will obviously see this as it goes on.

Kenen: But Julie, do you remember whether they were actually voters? Because I had the same reaction to you: like, of all the things to not be sure of, that one was pretty surprising. But we also know that in places like Kansas where, you know, where there are not that many Democrats, these referenda won. Voters have supported abortion rights in the 2022 elections and in these state referenda. So independents must be voting with the —

Rovner: I was going to say, I think if you’re doing —

Kenen: Something isn’t totally — something is not totally adding up there.

Rovner: If you’re doing a focus group for politics, one presumes that you get voters. So, I mean, I think that was — that was the point of the focus group. But yeah, it’s —

Kenen: Or people who say they’re voters.

Rovner: Or people who say they’re voters. That is a different issue. All right. Well, something not that confusing: Now it’s time for our extra credit segment. That’s when we each recommend a story we read this week we think you should read too. As always, don’t worry if you miss it. We will post the links on the podcast page at kffhealthnews.org and in our show notes on your phone or other mobile device. Tami, why don’t you go first this week?

Luhby: OK. Well, I picked a story from CNN by my colleagues on the health team. It’s titled “Because of Florida Abortion Laws, She Carried Her Baby to Term Knowing He Would Die,” by Elizabeth Cohen, Carma Hassan, and Amanda Musa. And I have to say that when I first read this story, I couldn’t get through it, because it was so upsetting. And then when I selected it as an extra credit, I had to read it in full. But it’s about a family in Florida whose son was born without kidneys. They knew that he was going to die. And it’s about all of the effects from everything from, you know, the mother, Deborah Dorbert, on her physically and emotionally. But it also, you know, talked about the family and, you know, the effect on the marriage and the effect — which was just so upsetting — was on the 4-year-old son, who became very attached. I don’t think they even knew — well, it wasn’t a girl. It was actually a boy. But for some reason, this older son felt that it was a girl and just kept saying, like, “My sister is going to do X, Y, Z.” And, you know, how did the parents break it to him? Because he saw that his mother was, you know, pregnant and getting larger. And, you know, it was just figuring out how to break it to him that no baby was coming home. So the details are heart-wrenching. The quotes in the third paragraph: “‘He gasped for air a couple of times when I held him,’ said Dorbert. ‘I watched my child take his first breath, and I held him as he took his last one.’” So, you know, these are things that, you know — and we just talked about how the states are arguing over what exceptions there should be, if any, you know, and these are the stories that the legislators don’t think about when they pass these laws.

Rovner: I think I said this before because we’ve had a story like this almost every week. This one was particularly wrenching. But I think the one thing that all these stories are doing is helping people understand, particularly men, that there are complications in pregnancy, that they’re not that rare, that, you know, that they sort of throw off and say, “Oh, well, that’s, you know, one in a million,” — It’s not one in a million. It’s like one in a thousand. That’s a lot of people. So I mean, that’s why there are a lot of these stories, because there are a lot of pregnancies that don’t go as expected.

Luhby: Right. And it really shows the chilling effect on doctors because, you know, you would say, “Oh, it’s simple: life of the mother or, you know, life of the fetus” or something like that. That seems pretty straightforward, but it isn’t. And these doctors, in cases where, you know, other cases where it is the life of the mother, which seem, again, very straightforward, the doctors are not willing to do anything because they’re afraid.

Rovner: I know. Joanne.

Kenen: This is a story from The Baltimore Banner that has a very long title. It’s by Hallie Miller and Adam Willis, and it’s called “Baltimore Isn’t Accessible for People With Disabilities. Fixing It Would Cost Over $650 Million.” Baltimore is not that big a city. $650 million is a lot of curbs and barriers. And there’s also a lot of gun violence in Baltimore. If you drive around Baltimore, and I work there a few days a week, you see lots of people on walkers and scooters and wheelchairs because many of them are survivors of gun violence. And you see them struggling. And there were quotes from people saying they, you know, were afraid walking near the harbor that they would fall in because there wasn’t a path for them. It is not invisible, but we treat it like it’s invisible. And it’s been many years since the Americans with Disabilities Act was passed, and we still don’t have it right. It’s a — this one isn’t confusion like everything else we talked about today. I loved Margot’s phrase about confusion as a secondary outcome. I think you should write a novel with that title. But it’s — this isn’t confusion. This is just not doing the right thing for people who are — we’re just not protecting or valuing.

Rovner: And I’d say for whom there are laws that this should be happening. Margot.

Sanger-Katz: I had another story about abortion. This one was in The New Yorker, called “The Problem With Planned Parenthood,” by Eyal Press. The story sort of looked at Planned Parenthood, you know, which is kind of the largest abortion provider in the country. It’s — I mean, it’s really a network of providers. They have all these affiliates. They’re often seen as being more monolithic than perhaps they are. But this story argued that people who were operating independent abortion clinics, who do represent a lot of the abortion providers in the country as well, have felt that Planned Parenthood has been too cautious legally, too afraid of running afoul of state laws, and so that has led them to be very conservative and also too conservative from the perspective of business, and that there is a view that Planned Parenthood is not serving the role that it could be by expanding into areas where abortion is less available. I thought it was just interesting to hear these criticisms and hoped to understand that the community of abortion providers are, you know, they’re diverse and they have different perspectives on how abortion access should work and what kinds of services should be provided in different settings. And they also view each other as business competition in some cases. I mean, a lot of the complaints in this article had to do with Planned Parenthood opening clinics near to independent clinics and kind of taking away the business from them, making it harder for them to survive and operate. Anyway, I thought it was a very interesting window into these debates, and it did mesh with some of my reporting experience, particularly around the legal cautiousness. I did a story before the Dobbs decision came down from the Supreme Court where Planned Parenthood in several states had just stopped offering abortions even before the court had ruled, because they anticipated that the court would rule and they just didn’t want to make any mistake about running afoul of these laws such that, you know, women were denied care that was still legal in the days leading up to the Supreme Court decision.

Rovner: Yeah, it’s a really good story. Well, my story is kind of tangentially about abortion. It’s from Slate, and it’s called “Not Every Man Will Be as Dumb as Marcus Silva,” by Moira Donegan and Mark Joseph Stern. And it’s about a case from Texas, of course, that we talked about a couple of weeks ago, where an ex-husband is suing two friends of his ex-wife for wrongful death, for helping her get an abortion. Well, now the two friends have filed a countersuit claiming that the ex-husband knew his wife was going to have an abortion beforehand because he found the pill in her purse and he put it back so that he could use the threat of a lawsuit to force her to stay with him. It feels like a soap opera, except it is happening in real life. And my first thought when I read this is that it’s going to make some great episode of “Dateline” or “20/20.” That is our show, as always.

Kenen: Or, not “The Bachelor.”

Rovner: Yeah, but not “The Bachelor.” That is our show. As always, if you enjoy the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left us a review; that helps other people find us too. Special thanks, as always, to our ever-patient producer, Francis Ying. Also, as always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org. Or you can tweet me. I’m still there. I’m at @jrovner. Joanne?

Kenen: @JoanneKenen.

Rovner: Tami.

Luhby: @Luhby.

Rovner: Margot.

Sanger-Katz: @sangerkatz.

Rovner: We will be back in your feed next week, hopefully with a little less confusion. Until then, be healthy.

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Julie Rovner is chief Washington correspondent and host of KFF Health News’ weekly health policy news podcast, “What the Health?” A noted expert on health policy issues, Julie is the author of the critically praised reference book “Health Care Politics and Policy A to Z,” now in its third edition.

The partisan fight in Congress over how to raise the nation’s debt ceiling to prevent a default has accelerated, as the U.S. Treasury predicted the borrowing limit could be reached as soon as June 1. On the table, potentially, are large cuts to federal spending programs, including major health programs.

Meanwhile, legislators in two conservative states, South Carolina and Nebraska, narrowly declined to pass very strict abortion bans, as some Republicans are apparently getting cold feet about the impact on care for pregnant women in their states.

This week’s panelists are Julie Rovner of KFF Health News, Joanne Kenen of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico, Rachel Cohrs of Stat, and Alice Miranda Ollstein of Politico.

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Alice Miranda Ollstein
Politico

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Rachel Cohrs
Stat News

@rachelcohrs

Read Rachel's stories

Joanne Kenen
Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico

@JoanneKenen

Read Joanne's stories

Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:

• The United States is approaching its debt limit — much sooner than expected. And it is unclear how, or if, lawmakers can resolve their differences over the budget before the nation defaults on its debts. Details of the hastily constructed House Republican proposal are coming to light, including apparently inadvertent potential cuts to veterans’ benefits and a lack of exemptions protecting those who are disabled from losing Medicaid and nutrition benefits under proposed work requirements.
• A seemingly routine markup of a key Senate drug pricing package devolved this week as it became clear the committee’s leadership team, under Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.), had not completed its due diligence to ensure members were informed and on board with the legislation. The Senate Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee plans to revisit the package next week, hoping to send it to the full Senate for a vote.
• In more abortion news, Republican lawmakers in North Carolina have agreed on a new, 12-week ban, which would further cut already bare-bones access to the procedure in the South. And federal investigations into two hospitals that refused emergency care to a pregnant woman in distress are raising the prospect of yet another abortion-related showdown over states’ rights before the Supreme Court.
• The number of deaths from covid-19 continues to dwindle. The public health emergency expires next week, and mask mandates are being dropped by health care facilities. There continue to be issues tallying cases and guiding prevention efforts. What’s clear is the coronavirus is not now and may never be gone, but things are getting better from a public health standpoint.
• The surgeon general has issued recommendations to combat the growing public health crisis of loneliness. Structural problems that contribute, like the lack of paid leave and few communal gathering spaces, may be ripe for government intervention. But while health experts frame loneliness as a societal-level problem, the federal government’s advice largely targets individual behaviors.

Plus, for “extra credit,” the panelists suggest health policy stories they read this week they think you should read, too:

Julie Rovner: The Washington Post’s “Dog-Walking Injuries May Be More Common Than You Think,” by Lindsey Bever.

Joanne Kenen: The Atlantic’s “There Is No Stopping the Allergy Apocalypse,” by Yasmin Tayag.

Rachel Cohrs: ProPublica’s “This Pharmacist Said Prisoners Wouldn’t Feel Pain During Lethal Injection. Then Some Shook and Gasped for Air,” by Lauren Gill and Daniel Moritz-Rabson.

Alice Miranda Ollstein: The Wall Street Journal’s “Patients Lose Access to Free Medicines Amid Spat Between Drugmakers, Health Plans,” by Peter Loftus and Joseph Walker.

Also mentioned in this week’s episode:

• The New York Times’ “Surgeon General: We Have Become a Lonely Nation. It’s Time to Fix That,” by Vivek H. Murthy.
• “What the Health?” podcast, July 7, 2022: “A Chat With the Surgeon General on Health Worker Burnout.”
• KFF Health News’ “After Idaho’s Strict Abortion Ban, OB-GYNs Stage a Quick Exodus,” by Sarah Varney.
• Politico’s “‘You Can’t Hide Things’: Feinstein, Old Age and Removing Senators,” by Joanne Kenen.

Click to open the transcript

Transcript: Health Programs Are at Risk as Debt Ceiling Cave-In Looms

KFF Health News’ ‘What the Health?’

Episode Title: Health Programs Are at Risk as Debt Ceiling Cave-In Looms

Episode Number: 296

Published: May 4, 2023

[Editor’s note: This transcript, generated using transcription software, has been edited for style and clarity.]

Julie Rovner: Hello and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Julie Rovner, chief Washington correspondent at KFF Health News. And I’m joined by some of the best and smartest health reporters in Washington. We’re taping this week on Thursday, May 4, at 10 a.m. As always, news happens fast and things might have changed by the time you hear this. So here we go. We are joined today via video conference by Joanne Kenen of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico.

Joanne Kenen: Hey, everybody.

Rovner: Rachel Cohrs of Stat News.

Rachel Cohrs: Good morning.

Rovner: And Alice Miranda Ollstein of Politico.

Ollstein: Hello.

Rovner: So plenty of news this week. We’re going to dive right in. We’re going to start again this week with the nation’s debt limit, which Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen warned this week could be reached as soon as June 1. That’s a lot earlier than I think most people had been banking on. And if Congress doesn’t act to raise it by then, the U.S. could default on its debts for the first time in history. Do we have any feel yet for how this gets untangled now that we know — I think there are, what, eight days left where both the House and the Senate will be in session?

Ollstein: You said it caught all of us by surprise. It seems to have caught lawmakers by surprise as well. They seem to have thought they had a lot more time to fight and blow smoke at one another, and they really don’t. And there has not been a clear path forward. There are efforts to get Mitch McConnell more involved. He has sort of said, “Ah, you people figure this out. You know, whatever House Republicans and the White House can agree on, the Senate will pass.” And he’s been trying to stay out of it. But now both Republicans and Democrats want him to weigh in. He’s seen as maybe a little more reasonable than some of the House Republicans to some of the players, and so —

Rovner: He may be one of the few Republicans who understands that it would be very, very bad to default.

Ollstein: Right. You have a lot of House Republicans saying it wouldn’t be so bad — the tough medicine for Washington spending, etc. So, you know, if I were to bet money, which I wouldn’t, I would bet on some sort of short-term punt; I mean, we’re really coming up to the deadline, and that’s what Congress loves to do.

Rovner: Yeah, I do too.

Kenen: I agree with Alice. You know, I think if the deadline had been a couple of months from now — they really didn’t want to do a punt. I mean, I think they wanted to walk up to the cliff and cut some kind of deal at the last hour. But I think this caught everybody off guard, including possibly Janet Yellen. So I think it’s much more likely there’ll be a short-term postponement. I think the Democrats would like to tie it to the regular budget talks for the end of the fiscal year. I’m not sure the Republicans will consider September 30 short-term. It might be shorter than that. Of course, we could have another one. But I think Alice’s instincts are right here.

Rovner: Yeah, I do too. I mean, the best thing Congress does is kick the can down the road. They do it every year with all kinds of things. Sorry, Rachel, I interrupted you.

Cohrs: Oh, no, that’s all right. I was just going to flag that the date to watch next week is May 9, when I think they’re all supposed to kind of get in a room together and start this conversation. So I think we’ll hopefully have a readout. I don’t know that they’re going to solve everything in that meeting, but we’ll at least get a sense of where everyone’s coming from and just how acrimonious things really are. So, yeah, those will kick off in earnest.

Rovner: Yeah. Well, one thing the Democrats are talking about is a discharge petition in the House, which is a rarely successful but not all that little-used way to bring a bill to the floor over the objections of the party in charge. Is there any chance that this is going to work this time?

Kenen: That’s one reason the Republicans might not want an extension, because they probably couldn’t do it in the next two or three weeks. There’s a slight chance they could do it in early to mid-June. The Democrats need five Republicans to sign on to that. I would think that if any Republicans are willing to sign on to that, they’re not going to say it in public, so we won’t know who they are, but the chances of it working improve if there’s an extension; the chances of it working are still not great, but I don’t think it’s impossible. I do not think it’s impossible, because there are Republicans who understand that defaulting is not a good idea.

Rovner: This has been painted this week as, Oh, this is a secret idea. It’s like, it’s not, but the actual discharge petition, you get to sign it not anonymously, but no one knows who’s signing on. It’s not like co-sponsoring a regular bill.

Kenen: But stuff gets out. I mean, there’s no such thing as a secret on the Hill.

Rovner: But technically, when you sign it, it’s not an obvious public thing that you’re supporting it, so we will — we’ll have to see. Well, we know that Republicans are demanding deep, in some cases very deep, cuts to federal spending with their bill to raise the debt ceiling. We’re finding out just how deep some of the cuts would be. One possible piece of fallout I think Republicans didn’t bargain for: They say they intended to exempt veterans from the cuts, but apparently the bill doesn’t actually do that, which has already prompted cries of outrage from very powerful veterans groups. This is the danger of these really broadly written bills, right, is that you can sort of actually accidentally end up sweeping in things you didn’t mean to.

Cohrs: Right. Well, this bill came together very quickly, and Kevin McCarthy was dealing with a lot of competing factions and trying to make everyone happy on issues like energy credits, that kind of thing. And obviously this didn’t get attention before. And I think that that’s just kind of a symptom that isn’t infrequent in Washington, where things come together really quickly, and sometimes there are some unintended consequences, but I think that’s one of the functions of kind of the news cycle in Washington especially, is to bring attention to some of these things before they become law. So the rhetoric has been very fiery, but again, there’s a possibility that it could be worked out at a later date if for some reason the final deal ends up looking something like the Republican bill, which is not necessarily the case.

Rovner: Once upon a time — and we’ll talk about this next — we had something called regular order, where bills went through the committee process, there was a committee report, and people had time to look at them before they came to the floor. And now it’s sort of like a fish. If you leave it out too long, it’s going to start to smell. So you got to catch it and pass it right away. Well, before we get to that, another change that those people who wrote the Republican bill probably didn’t intend: The requirement for states to institute work requirements for those who get Medicaid and/or food stamps — something that states cannot opt out of, we are told — does not include exemptions for people with disabilities. In other words, they would be required to work if they are of the age. Even those who’ve been getting, you know, disability benefits for years would have to be recertified as quote “unfit to work” by a doctor, or else they would have their benefits terminated. I would imagine that states would be among those joining the uproar with this. They have enough to do with redeterminations right now from people who got on Medicaid during the pandemic. The last thing they need is to have to basically redetermine every single person who’s already been determined to have a disability.

Kenen: And it’s a burden for the disabled too, even if the states are willing to do it. Bureaucracies are hard to deal with, and people would get lost in the shuffle. There’s absolutely no question that disabled people would get lost in the shuffle given the system they’ve set up.

Ollstein: Yes, this is a perfect example of how people fall through the cracks, and especially because a lot of the mechanisms that states set up to do this, we’ve seen, are not fully accessible for people with disabilities. Some of them have audio-only options. Some of them have online-only options. It’s very hard for people to — even if they know about it, which they might not — to navigate this and become certified. And so there is a fair amount of data out there that the projected savings from policies like work requirements don’t come from more people working; they come from people getting kicked off the rolls who maybe shouldn’t be, should be fully eligible for benefits.

Kenen: And it’s not just physical disability. I mean, there’s all sorts of developmental disabilities — people who really aren’t going to be able to navigate the system. It’s just — it may not be what they intended, it may be what they intended, who knows. But it’s not a viable approach.

Rovner: Yeah. Meanwhile, even if the Democrats could sneak a bill out of the House with a little bit of moderate Republican support, there’s no guarantee it could get through the Senate, where West Virginia’s Joe Manchin says he supports at least some budget cuts and work requirements and where the absence of California’s Dianne Feinstein, who is 89 and has been away from Washington since February, trying to recover from a case of shingles, has loomed large in a body where the elected majority only has 51 votes. Joanne, you wrote about the sticky problem of senators of an advanced age. Feinstein is far from the first, but is there anything that can be done about this when, you know, one of our older senators is out for a long time?

Kenen: There is no institutional solution to an incapacitated senator. And in addition to the magazine piece I wrote about this yesterday for Politico Magazine, I also wrote about last night in Politico Nightly sort of going back to the history until the 1940s. I mean, there have been people, a handful, but people out for like three or four years. The only tool is an expulsion vote, and that is not used. You need two-thirds vote, and you can’t get that. It was used during the Civil War, where there were I think it was 14 senators from Confederate states who didn’t sort of get that they were supposed to leave once the Civil War started, so they got expelled. Other than that, there’s only been one case, and it was for treason, in the 1790s. So they’re not going to start expelling senators who have strokes or who have dementia or who have other ailments. That’s just not going to happen. But that means they’re stuck with them. And it’s not just Feinstein. I mean, there have been other impaired senators, and there will be more impaired senators in the future. There’s no equivalent to the 25th Amendment, for which the vice president and the cabinet can remove a president. The Senate has no mechanism other than behind-the-scenes cajoling. And, you know, we have seen Dianne Feinstein — she didn’t even announce she wasn’t running for reelection until other people announced they were running for her seat. But it’s like 50-50 Senate — if it’s 47-53 and one is sick, it doesn’t matter so much. If it’s 50-50 or 51-49, it matters a lot.

Rovner: Yeah, and that’s what I was going to say. I mean, you and I remember when Tim Johnson from South Dakota had, what was it, an aneurysm?

Kenen: I think he had a stroke, right?

Rovner: Yeah. It took him a year to come back, which he did eventually.

Kenen: Well, we both covered Strom Thurmond, who, you know, was clearly not —

Rovner: —he was not all there —

Kenen: — situational awareness for quite a few years. I mean, it was very clear, you know, as I mention in this story, that, you know, instead of the staff following his orders, he was following the staff’s orders and he was not cognizant of Senate proceedings or what was going on.

Rovner: Yeah, that’s for sure.

Kenen: But there also are some who are really fine. I mean, we know some who are 80, 88 — you know, in their 80s who are totally alert. And so an age cutoff is also problematic. That doesn’t work either.

Rovner: Right. Ted Kennedy was, you know, right there until he wasn’t. So I’m amazed at the at how some of these 80-something-year-old senators have more energy than I do. Well, elsewhere on Capitol Hill, we talked about the bipartisan drug price bill last week in the Senate that was supposed to be marked up and sent to the floor this week, which did not happen. Rachel, how did what should have been a fairly routine committee vote get so messed up?

Cohrs: Yeah, it was a — it was a meltdown. We haven’t seen something like this in quite a — a couple of years, I think, on the Hill, where Chairman Bernie Sanders’ first major, you know, health care markup. And I think it just became clear that they had not done due diligence down the dais and had buy-in on these bills, but also the amendment process, which sounds like a procedural complaint but it really — there were some substantive changes in these amendments, and it was obvious from the markup that senators were confused about who supported what and what could get the support of the caucus. And those conversations in the Lamar Alexander, you know, iteration of this committee happened before. So I think it, you know, was a lesson certainly for everyone that there does need to be — I don’t know, it’s hard to draw the line between kind of regular order, where every senator can offer an amendment, and what passes. And it’s just another symptom of that issue in Congress where even sometimes popular things that an individual senator might support — they could pass on their own — that throwing off the dynamics of packages that they’re trying to put together. So I think they are hoping to give it another shot next week after a hearing with executives from insulin manufacturers and pharmacy benefit managers. But it was pretty embarrassing this week.

Rovner: Yeah. I was going to say, I mean normally these things are negotiated out behind the scenes so by the time you actually — if you’re going to have a markup; sometimes markups get canceled at the last minute because they haven’t been able to work things out behind the scenes. Correct me if I’m wrong, but Bernie Sanders has not been chairman before of a major legislative committee, right? He was chairman of the Budget Committee, but they don’t do this kind of take up a bill and make amendments.

Kenen: I don’t remember, but he was a lead author of the bipartisan veterans bill. So he has — it’s probably his biggest legislative achievement in the Senate. And that was a major bipartisan bill. So he does know how these things work.

Rovner: Right. He knows how to negotiate.

Kenen: It just didn’t work.

Rovner: Yeah, I think this came as a surprise — a committee like this that’s really busy with legislation and that does legislation that frequently gets amended and changed before it goes to the floor. I am told he was indeed chairman of Veterans’ Affairs, but they don’t do as much legislation as the HELP Committee. I think this was perhaps his first outing. Maybe he learned some important lessons about how this committee actually works and how it should go on. All right. Rachel, you said that there’s going to be a hearing and then they’re going to try this markup again. So we’ll see if they get through this in the May work period, as they call it.

Kenen: Maybe they’ll come out holding hands.

Rovner: I want to turn to abortion. It seems that maybe, possibly, the tide in states is turning against passage of the broadest possible bans. In the same day last week we saw sweeping abortion restrictions turned back, though barely, by lawmakers in both South Carolina and Nebraska. And in North Carolina, where Republicans just got a supermajority big enough to override the state’s Democratic governor’s veto, lawmakers are now looking at a 12-week ban rather than the six-week or total ban that was expected. Alice, is this a trend or kind of an anomaly?

Ollstein: Every state is different, and you still have folks pushing for total or near-total bans in a lot of states. And I will say that in North Carolina specifically, a 12-week ban will have a big impact, because that is the state where a lot of people throughout the entire South are going right now, so they’re getting incoming folks from Texas, Oklahoma, Alabama, Louisiana. So it’s one of the sort of last havens in the entire southeast area, and so even a restriction to 12 weeks, you know, we know that the vast majority of abortions happen before that point, but with fewer and fewer places for people to go, wait times are longer, people are pushed later into pregnancy who want to terminate a pregnancy sooner. And so it could be a big deal. This has also been kind of a crazy saga in North Carolina, with a single lawmaker switching parties and that being what is likely to enable this to pass.

Rovner: Yeah, a Democrat turned Republican for reasons that I think have not been made totally clear yet, but giving the Republicans this veto-proof majority.

Kenen: They’ve got the veto-proof majority. I did read one report saying there was one vote in question. It might be this lawmaker who turned, whether she’s for 12-week or whether she’s for 15 or 20 or whatever else. So it’ll certainly pass. I don’t have firsthand knowledge of this, but I did read one story that said there’s some question about they might be one short of the veto-proof majority. So we’ll just have to wait and see.

Rovner: Yeah, North Carolina is obviously a state that’s continuing. So my colleague and sometime podcast panelist Sarah Varney has a story this week out of Idaho, where doctors who treat pregnant women are leaving the state and hospitals are closing maternity wards because they can no longer staff them. It’s a very good story, but what grabbed me most was a line from an Idaho state representative who voted for the ban, Republican Mark Sauter. He told Sarah, quote, “he hadn’t thought very much about the state abortion ban other than I’m a pro-life guy and I ran that way.” He said it wasn’t until he had dinner with the wife of a hospital emergency room doctor that he realized what the ban was doing to doctors and hospitals in the state and to pregnant women who were not trying to have abortions. Are we starting to see more of that, Alice? I’ve seen, you know, a few Republicans here and there saying that — now that they’re seeing what’s playing out — they’re not so sure these really dramatic bans are the way to go.

Ollstein: Yeah, I will say we are seeing more and more of that. I’ve done some reporting on Tennessee, where some of the Republicans who voted for the state’s near-total ban are expressing regret and saying that there have been unintended consequences for people in obstetric emergency situations. You know, they said they didn’t realize how this would be a chilling effect on doctors providing care in more than just so-called elective abortion situations. But it does seem that those Republicans who are speaking out in that way are still in the majority. The party overall is still pushing for these restrictions. They’re also accusing medical groups of misinterpreting them. So we are seeing this play out. For instance, you know, in Tennessee, there was a push to include more exceptions in the ban, alter enforcement so that doctors wouldn’t be afraid to perform care in emergency situations, and a lot of that was rejected. What they ended up passing didn’t go as far as what the medical groups say is needed to protect pregnant people.

Rovner: It’s important to point out that the groups on the other side, the anti-abortion groups, have not backed off. They are still — and these are the groups that have supported most of these pro-life Republicans who are in these state legislatures. So were they to, you know, even support more exemptions that would, you know, turn them against important supporters that they have, so I think it’s this —

Ollstein: —right—

Rovner: —sort of balancing act going on.

Ollstein: Plus, we’ve seen even in the states that have exemptions, people are not able to use them in a lot of circumstances. That’s why you have a lot of pro-abortion rights groups, including medical groups, saying exemptions may give the appearance of being more compassionate but are not really navigable in practice.

Rovner: Right. I mean, we’ve had all these stories every week of how near death does a pregnant woman have to be before doctors are not afraid to treat her because they will be dragged into court or put in jail?

Ollstein: Right.

Rovner: So this continues. Well, the other big story of the week has to do with exactly that. The federal Department of Health and Human Services has opened an investigation into two hospitals, one each in Missouri and Kansas, that federal officials say violated the federal emergency medical care law by refusing to perform an abortion on a woman in medical distress. If the hospitals don’t prove that they will comply with the law, they could face fines or worse, be banned from participation in Medicare and Medicaid. I can’t help but think this is the kind of fight that’s going to end up at the Supreme Court, right? I mean, this whole, if you have a state law that conflicts with federal law, what do you do?

Ollstein: Yeah, we’re seeing that both in the EMTALA space [Emergency Medical Treatment and Labor Act] and in the drug space. We’re seeing a lot of state-federal conflicts being tested in court, sort of for the first time in the abortion question. So we also, in addition to these new federal actions, you know, we still have cases playing out related to abortion and emergency care in a few other states. So I think this will continue, and I think that you’re really seeing that exactly the letter of the law is one thing, and the chilling effect is another thing. And how doctors point out if a lot of these state abortion bans are structured around what’s called an affirmative defense, which means that doctors have to cross their fingers and provide the care and know that if they get sued, they can mount a defense that, you know, this was necessary to save someone’s life. Now, doctors point out that a lot of people are not willing to do that and a lot of people are afraid to do that; they don’t have the resources to do it. Plus, in the medical space, when you apply for licenses or things in the future, it doesn’t just say, “Were you ever convicted of something?” It says, “Were you ever charged with something?” So even if the charges are dropped, it still remains on their record forever.

Rovner: Yeah, and they have malpractice premiums. I mean, there’s a whole lot of things that this will impact. Well, I want to talk about covid, because we haven’t talked about covid in a couple of weeks. It is still with us. Ask people who went to the big CDC conference last week; I think they’ve had, what, 35 cases out of that conference? Yet the public health emergency officially ends on May 11, which will trigger all manner of changes. We’re already seeing states disenrolling people for Medicaid now that they’re allowed to redetermine eligibility again, including some people who say they’re still eligible, as we talked about a little bit earlier. We’re also seeing vaccine mandates lifted. Does this mean that the pandemic is really over? It obviously is a major signal, right, even if covid is still around?

Kenen: It means it’s legally over. It doesn’t mean it’s biologically over. But it is clearly better. I mean, will we have more surges next winter or over some kind of holiday gathering? You know, it’s not gone and it’s probably never going to be gone. However, we also don’t know how many cases there really are because not everybody tests or they don’t realize that cold is covid or they test at home and don’t report it. So the caseload is murky, but we sure note that the death toll is the lowest it’s been in two years, and I think it’s under 200 a day — and I’d have to double check that — but it’s really dropped and it’s continuing to drop. So even though there’s concern about whether we still need some of these protections, and I personally think we do need some of them in some places, the bottom line is, are people dying the way they were dying? No. That is — you know, I’ve watched that death toll drop over the last couple of weeks; it’s consistent and it’s significant. And so we should all be grateful for that. But whether it stays low without some of these measures and access to testing and access to shots and — and people are confused, you know, like, Oh, the shots aren’t going to be free or they are going to be free or I don’t need one. I mean, that whole murkiness on the part of the public — I mean, I have friends who are quite well aware of things. I mean, I have friends who just got covid the other day and, you know, said, “Well, you know, I’m not going to — I’m not really, really sick, so I don’t need Paxlovid.” And I said, “You know, you really need to call your doctor and talk about that.” So her doctor gave her Paxlovid — so she actually had a risk factor, so, two risk factors. So it’s not over, but we also have to acknowledge that it’s better than many people thought it would be by May 2023.

Rovner: Yeah, I know. I mean, the big complaints I’m seeing are people with chronic illnesses who worry that masks are no longer required in health care facilities, and that that seems to upset them.

Kenen: I mean, I think if you were to ask a doctor, I would hope that you could ask your doctor to put on a mask in a certain situation. And that doesn’t work in a hospital where lots of people around, but the doctors I’ve been to recently have also worn masks and —

Rovner: Yeah, mine too.

Kenen: Luckily, we do know now that if you wear a good mask, an N95, properly, it is not perfect, but you still can protect yourself by wearing a mask. You know, I take public transport and I wear masks in public transport, and I still avoid certain settings, and I worry more about the people who are at risk and they don’t understand that the shots are still free; they don’t know how to get medication; they don’t — there’s just a lot of stuff out there that we have communicated so poorly. And the lack of a public health emergency, with both the resources and the messaging — I worry about that.

Rovner: And as we pointed out, people losing their health insurance, whether, you know —

Kenen: That’s a whole other —

Rovner: Yeah, rightly or not. I mean, you know, whether they’re no longer eligible.

Kenen: Most are, but they’re still, you know — falling through the cracks is a major theme in American health care.

Rovner: It is. Well, finally this week, the U.S. surgeon general, Vivek Murthy, wants us to be less lonely. Really. The health effects of loneliness have been a signature issue for Dr. Murthy. We talked about it at some length in a podcast last summer. I will be sure to add the link to that in the show notes. But now, instead of just describing how loneliness is bad for your health — and trust me, loneliness is bad for your health — the surgeon general’s office has issued a new bulletin with how Americans can make themselves less lonely. It’s not exactly rocket science. It recommends spending more time in person with friends and less time online. But does highlighting the issue make it easier to deal with? I mean, this is not one of the traditional public health issues that we’ve talked about over the years.

Ollstein: I’m very interested to see where this conversation goes, because it’s already sort of feeling like a lot of other public health conversations in the U.S. in that they describe this huge, existential, population-level problem, but the solutions pushed are very individual and very like, you have to change your lifestyle, you have to log off, you have to join more community groups. And it’s like, if this is a massive societal problem, shouldn’t there be bigger, broader policy responses?

Kenen: You can’t mandate someone going out for coffee —

Ollstein: —exactly—

Kenen: —three times a week. I mean, this one —

Ollstein: Exactly. You can’t boostrap loneliness.

Kenen: This one, I think — I think it validates people’s feelings. I mean, I think people who are feeling isolated —I mean, we had loneliness before the pandemic, but the pandemic has changed how we live and how we socialize. And if — I think it’s sort of telling people, you know, if you’re feeling this way, it is real and it’s common, and other people are feeling that way, too, so pick up the phone. And maybe those of us who are more extroverted will reach out to people we know who are more isolated. So, I mean, I’m not sure what HHS or the surgeon general can do to make people spend time with one another.

Ollstein: Well, there are structural factors in loneliness. There are economic factors. There is, you know, a lack of paid time off. There are a lack of public spaces where people can gather, you know, in a safe and pleasant way. You know, other countries do tons of things. You know, there are programs in other countries that encourage teens, that finance and support teens forming garage bands, in Scandinavian countries. I mean, there are there are policy responses, and maybe some of them are already being tried out at like the city level in a lot of places. But I’m not hearing a lot other than telling people to make individual life changes, which may not be possible.

Rovner: But although I was going to point out that one of the reasons that this is becoming a bigger issue is that the number of Americans living alone has gone up. You know, and again, Joanne, this was way before the pandemic, but it’s more likely — people are more in a position to be lonely, basically. I mean, it’s going to affect a larger part of the population, so —

Kenen: And some of the things that Alice suggested are policies that are being worked on because of, you know, social determinants and other things: recreation, housing. Those things are happening at both the state and federal level. So they would help loneliness, but I don’t think you’re going to see them branded as a loneliness — national loneliness program. But, you know, the demographics of this country — you know, families are scattered. Zoom is great, you know, but Zoom isn’t real life. And there are more people who are single, there are more people who are widowed, there are more people who never married, there are more people who are divorced, the elderly cohort. Many people live alone, and teens and kids have had a hard time in the last couple years. So I think on one level it’s easy for people to make fun of it because, you know, we’re coming out of this pandemic and the surgeon general’s talking about loneliness. On the other hand, there are millions or tens of millions of people who are lonely. And I think this does sort of help people understand that there are things to be done about it that — I don’t think individual action is always a bad thing. I mean, encouraging people to think about the people in their lives who might be lonely is probably a good thing. It’s social cohesion. I mean, Republicans can make that case, right, that we have to, you know, everybody needs to pick up a telephone or go for a walk and knock on a door.

Rovner: Yeah, they do. I mean, Republicans are big on doing things at the community level. That’s the idea, is let’s have government at the lowest level possible. Well, this will be an interesting issue to watch and see if it catches on more with the public health community. All right. That is this week’s news. Now it is time for our extra credit segment. That’s when we each recommend a story we read this week we think you should read too. As always, don’t worry if you miss it. We will post the links on the podcast page at KFF Health News and in our show notes on your phone or other mobile device. Rachel, why don’t you go first this week?

Cohrs: My story is in ProPublica and the headline is “This Pharmacist Said Prisoners Wouldn’t Feel Pain During Lethal Injection. Then Some Shook and Gasped for Air,” by Lauren Gill and Daniel Moritz-Rabson. And I think it’s just a story about this ongoing issue of expert testimony in criminal justice settings. And obviously these are really important questions about medications that, you know, are used for lethal injections and how they work and just how, you know, people are responding to them in the moment. And I mean, it’s just such an important issue that gets overlooked in the pharmaceutical space sometimes. And yeah, I think it’s just something that is very sobering, and it’s just a really important read.

Rovner: Yeah. I mean, there’s been a lot about doctors and the ethics of participating in these. This is the first time I’ve seen a story about pharmacists. Joanne?

Kenen: Well, I saw this one in The Atlantic. It’s by Yasmin Tayag, and I couldn’t resist the headline: “There Is No Stopping the Allergy Apocalypse.” Basically, because of climate change, allergies are getting worse. If you have allergies, you already know that. If you think you don’t have allergies, you’re probably wrong; you’re probably about to get them. They take a little while to show up. So it’s not in one region; it’s everywhere. So, you know, we’re all going to be wheezing, coughing, sneezing, sniffling a lot more than we’re used to, including if you were not previously a wheezer, cougher, or sniffler.

Rovner: Oh, I can’t wait. Alice.

Ollstein: So I have a piece from The Wall Street Journal called “Patients Lose Access to Free Medicines Amid Spat Between Drugmakers, Health Plans,” by Peter Loftus and Joseph Walker. And it is some really tragic stories about folks who are seeing their monthly costs for medications they depend on to live shoot up. In one instance in the story, what he has to pay per month shot up from 15 to more than 12,000. And so you have the drugmakers, the insurance companies, and the middlemen pointing fingers at each other and saying, you know, “This is your fault, this is your fault, this is your fault.” And meanwhile, patients are suffering. So, really interesting story, hope it leads to some action to help folks.

Rovner: I was going to say, maybe the HELP Committee will get its act together, because it’s trying to work on this.

Ollstein: Yeah.

Rovner: Well, my story is from The Washington Post, and it’s called “Dog-Walking Injuries May Be More Common Than You Think,” by Lindsey Bever. And it’s about a study from Johns Hopkins, including your colleagues, Joanne, that found that nearly half a million people were treated in U.S. emergency rooms for an injury sustained while walking a dog on a leash. Not surprisingly, most were women and older adults, who are most likely to be pulled down by a very strong dog. The three most diagnosed injuries were finger fractures, traumatic brain injuries, and shoulder injuries. As a part-time dog trainer in my other life, here are my two biggest tips, other than training your dog to walk politely on a leash: Don’t use retractable leashes; they can actually cut off a finger if it gets caught in one. And never wrap the leash around your hand or your wrist. So that is my medical advice for this week. And that is our show. As always, if you enjoy the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left us a review; that helps other people find us too. Special thanks, as always, to our ever-patient producer, Francis Ying. Also, as always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org. Or you can tweet me, as long as Twitter’s still there. I’m @jrovner. Joanne?

Kenen: @JoanneKenen.

Rovner: Alice.

Ollstein: @AliceOllstein.

Rovner: Rachel.

Cohrs: @rachelcohrs.

Rovner: We will be back in your feed next week. Until then, be healthy.

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Julie Rovner is chief Washington correspondent and host of KFF Health News’ weekly health policy news podcast, “What the Health?” A noted expert on health policy issues, Julie is the author of the critically praised reference book “Health Care Politics and Policy A to Z,” now in its third edition.

If Congress fails to raise the nation’s debt ceiling in the next few months, the U.S. could default on its debt for the first time in history. Republicans in Congress, however, say they won’t agree to pay the nation’s bills unless Democrats and President Joe Biden agree to deep cuts to health and other programs. Among the proposals in a bill House Republicans passed April 26 is the imposition of new work requirements for adults who receive Medicaid.

Meanwhile, many of the states passing restrictions on abortion are also passing bills to restrict the ability of trans people to get health care. The two movements — both largely aimed at conservative evangelicals, a key GOP constituency — have much in common.

This week’s panelists are Julie Rovner of KFF Health News, Jessie Hellmann of CQ Roll Call, Shefali Luthra of The 19th, and Sarah Karlin-Smith of the Pink Sheet.

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Jessie Hellmann
CQ Roll Call

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Shefali Luthra
The 19th

@Shefalil

Read Shefali's stories

Sarah Karlin-Smith
Pink Sheet

@SarahKarlin

Read Sarah's stories

Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:

• The Republican-controlled House’s proposal to raise the debt ceiling contains enough politically poisonous measures that the plan is a non-starter in the Senate. They include substantial funding cuts to major federal health programs, including the FDA and the National Institutes of Health — cuts that would force the federal government to cut back on grants and other funding.
• The proposal would also impose work requirements on adults enrolled in Medicaid — which covers low-income and disabled Americans, as well as pregnant women — and in the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, which helps needy families buy food. Under the plan, the government would save money by cutting the number of people helped. But most beneficiaries cannot work or already do so. Experience shows the change would mostly affect people who struggle to report their work hours through what can be complicated online portals.
• Multiple congressional committees have released plans to fight high drug costs, promoting efforts to explore how pharmacy benefit managers make decisions about cost and access, as well as to encourage access to cheaper, generic drugs on the market. And during congressional testimony this week, the administrator of the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services, Chiquita Brooks-LaSure, said the agency would no longer issue warnings to hospitals that fail to comply with a law that requires them to post their prices, but instead would move directly to fining the holdouts.
• Also in news about cost-cutting legislation, a plan to address an expensive glitch in Medicare payments to hospital outpatient centers and physician offices is gaining steam on Capitol Hill. Hospital consolidation has helped increase costs in the health care system, and lawmakers are eager to keep health spending under control. But the hospital industry is ramping up advertising to make sure lawmakers think twice before legislating.
• In abortion news, it will likely be at least a year before the Supreme Court rules on whether the abortion pill mifepristone should remain accessible. Some justices suggested in last summer’s Dobbs decision, which overturned abortion rights, that they would leave further abortion questions to the states, yet the nation is finding that overturning a half-century of legal precedent is messy, to say the least. Meanwhile, reporting and polling are revealing just how difficult it is for doctors in states with abortion bans to determine what constitutes a “medical emergency” worthy of intervention, with a grim consensus emerging that apparently means “when a woman is near death.”

Also this week, Rovner interviews Renuka Rayasam, who wrote the latest KFF Health News-NPR “Bill of the Month” feature, about a pregnant woman experiencing a dangerous complication who was asked to pay $15,000 upfront to see one of the few specialists who could help her. If you have an outrageous or exorbitant medical bill you want to share with us, you can do that here.

Plus, for “extra credit,” the panelists suggest health policy stories they read this week that they think you should read, too:

Julie Rovner: The Nation’s “The Poison Pill in the Mifepristone Lawsuit That Could Trigger a National Abortion Ban,” by Amy Littlefield.

Shefali Luthra: The Washington Post’s “The Conservative Campaign to Rewrite Child Labor Laws,” by Jacob Bogage and María Luisa Paúl.

Jessie Hellmann: Politico’s “Gun Violence Is Actually Worse in Red States. It’s Not Even Close,” by Colin Woodard.

Sarah Karlin-Smith: The Wall Street Journal’s “Weight-Loss Drugmakers Lobby for Medicare Coverage,” by Liz Essley Whyte.

Also mentioned in this week’s episode:

• In Oklahoma, a Woman Was Told to Wait Until She’s ‘Crashing’ for Abortion Care,” by Selena Simmons-Duffin.
• Anti-Trans Bills Have Doubled Since 2022. Our Map Shows Where States Stand,” by Annys Shin, N. Kirkpatrick, and Anne Branigin.

click to open the transcript

Transcript: Dancing Under the Debt Ceiling

KFF Health News’ ‘What the Health?’

Episode Title: Dancing Under the Debt Ceiling

Episode Number: 295

Published: April 27, 2023

[Editor’s note: This transcript, generated using transcription software, has been edited for style and clarity.]

Julie Rovner: Hello and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Julie Rovner, chief Washington correspondent at KFF Health News. And I’m joined by some of the best and smartest health reporters in Washington. We’re taping this week on Thursday, April 27, at 10 a.m. As always, news happens fast — really fast this week — and things might have changed by the time you hear this. So here we go. We are joined today via video conference by Jessie Hellmann of CQ Roll Call.

Jessie Hellmann: Good morning.

Rovner: Sarah Karlin-Smith, the Pink Sheet.

Sarah Karlin-Smith: Hi, everybody.

Rovner: And Shefali Luthra of The 19th.

Shefali Luthra: Hello.

Rovner: Later in this episode, we’ll have our KFF Health News-NPR “Bill of the Month” interview with Renuka Rayasam. This month’s patient had a happy ending medically, but a not-so-happy ending financially. But first, the news. We’re going to start this week with the budget and, to be specific, the nation’s debt ceiling, which will put the U.S. in default if it’s not raised sometime in the next several weeks, not to panic anyone. House Republicans, who have maintained all along that they won’t allow the debt ceiling to be raised unless they get spending cuts in return, managed to pass — barely — a bill that would raise the debt ceiling enough to get to roughly the middle of next year. It has no chance in the Senate, but it’s now the Republicans’ official negotiating position, so we should talk about what’s in it. It starts with a giant cut to discretionary spending programs. In health care that includes things like the National Institutes of Health, most public health programs, and the parts of the FDA that aren’t funded by user fees. I mean, these are big cuts, yes?

Hellmann: Yeah, it’s about a 14% cut to some of these programs. It’s kind of hard to know exactly what that would mean. But yeah, it’s a big cut and there would have to be, like, a lot of changes made, especially to a lot of health care programs, because that’s where a lot of spending happens.

Rovner: Yeah, I mean, sometimes they’ll agree on cuts and it’ll be like a 1% across the board, which itself can be a lot of money. But I mean, these are, these are sort of really deep cuts that would seriously hinder the ability of these programs to function, right?

Karlin-Smith: NIH for a number of years was operating on only getting budget increases that were not keeping up kind of with inflation and so forth. And they just finally, over the last few years, got back on track. Even though their budget seemed like it was going up, really, if you adjusted for inflation, it had been going down. And then when you have an agency like FDA, which, the line is always that they do an incredible amount of work on really a shoestring budget for the amount they regulate, so they never get — NIH sometimes gets, you know, that bipartisan popularity and does get those bigger increases back, and they never really get those big increases, so I think it would be harder for them also to get that back later on if they did get such big cuts.

Hellmann: There are like also a lot of health programs that just operate on flat funding from year to year, like Title X.

Rovner: Yeah, the family planning program.

Hellmann: And so obviously, like HHS said last year, We are only able to fund a certain number of providers, like, less than previously, because of inflation, and stuff like that. So obviously if you take a 14% cut to that, it would make it even harder.

Rovner: All right. Another major proposal in the package would institute or expand work requirements for people on food stamps and on Medicaid. Now, we’ve had work rules for people on welfare since the 1990s, but most people on Medicaid and food stamps, for that matter, either already work or can’t work for some reason. Why are the Republicans so excited about expanding or instituting work requirements?

Hellmann: I think there are a few reasons. No. 1, it’s a big money saver. The CBO [Congressional Budget Office] came out with their analysis this week showing that it would save the federal government about $109 billion. A lot of that would be shifted to the states because the way the bill is written, states would still be allowed to cover these individuals if they can’t prove that they’re working. But they’d have to pick up the costs themselves, which, I’ve seen experts questioning if that would really happen, even in states like, you know, New York and California, who probably wouldn’t want these people to lose coverage. But I think an argument that you hear a lot too, especially during the Trump administration when they were really pushing these, is they say that work is what provides fulfillment and dignity to people. Former CMS [Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services] administrator Seema Verma talked about this a lot. The argument I heard a lot on the Hill this week is that Medicaid and other — SNAP [Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program], TANF [Temporary Assistance for Needy Families], programs like that — trap people in poverty and that work requirements will kind of give them an incentive to get jobs. But as you said, like, it wouldn’t apply to most — you know, most people are already working. And most people who lost coverage under some of the previous iterations of this just didn’t know about it or they were unable to complete the reporting requirements.

Rovner: And to be clear, the CBO estimate is not so much because people would work and they wouldn’t need it anymore. It’s because people are likely to lose their coverage because they can’t meet the bureaucratic requirements to prove that they’re working. Shefali, you’re nodding. We’ve seen this before, right?

Luthra: I was just thinking, I mean, the savings, yes, they come from people losing their health insurance. That’s very obvious. Of course, you save money when you pay for fewer people’s coverage. And you’re absolutely right: “This will motivate people to work” argument has always been a little bit — complicated is a generous word. I think you could even say it’s a bit thin just because people do already work.

Rovner: And they — many of them work, they don’t earn enough money, really, to bring them out of poverty. And they don’t have jobs that offer health insurance. That’s the only way they’re going to get health insurance. All right. Well, where do we go from here with the debt ceiling? So now we’ve got this Republican plan that says work — everybody has to work and prove that they work and we’re going to cut all these programs — and the Democrats saying this is not a discussion for the debt ceiling, this is a separate discussion that should happen down the road on the budget. Is there any sign that either side is going to give here?

Hellmann: It doesn’t seem like it. Democrats have been saying, like, this is a non-starter. The president has been saying, like, we’re not going to negotiate on this; we want a clean increase in the debt ceiling, and we can talk about some of these other proposals that you want to pursue later. But right now, it seems like both sides are kind of at a standstill. And I think Republicans see, like, passing this bill yesterday as a way to kind of strengthen their hand and show that they can get all on the same page. But I just do not see the Senate entertaining a 14% cut or, like, Medicaid work requirements or any of this stuff that is just kind of extremely toxic, even to some, like, moderate Democrats over there.

Rovner: Yeah, I think this is going to go on for a while. Well, so at this high level, we’ve got this huge partisan fight going on. But interestingly, this week elsewhere on Capitol Hill things seem surprisingly almost bipartisan, dare I say. Starting in the Senate, the chairman and the ranking member of the Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee, Democrat Bernie Sanders and Republican Bill Cassidy, announced that they’ve reached agreement on a series of bills aimed at reining in prescription drug costs for consumers, including one to more closely regulate pharmacy benefit managers and others to further promote the availability of generic drugs. Sarah, we’ve talked about the target on the backs of PBMs this year. What would this bill do and what are the chances of it becoming law?

Karlin-Smith: So this bill does three things: One is transparency. They want to pull back the cover and get more data and information from PBMs so that they can better understand how they’re working. So I think the idea would then be to take future policy action, because one of the criticisms of this industry is it’s so opaque it’s hard to know if they’re really doing the right thing in terms of serving their customers and trying to save money and drug prices as they say they are. The other thing is it would basically require a lot of the fees and rebates PBMs get on drug prices to be given back directly to the health plan, which is sort of interesting because the drug industry has argued that money should be given more directly to patients who are paying for those drugs. And when that has scored by the CBO, that often costs money because that leads to PBMs using less money to lower people’s premiums, and premiums are subsidized from the government. So I’m curious if the reason why they designed the bill this way is to sort of get around that, although then I’m not sure exactly if you get the same individual … [unintelligible] … level benefit from it. And then the third thing they do is they want to eliminate spread pricing, which is where — this is really a pharmacy issue — where PBMs basically reimburse pharmacies less than they’re charging the health plans and, you know, their customers for the drug and kind of pocketing the difference. So I think, from what I’m seeing on the Hill, there’s a ton of momentum to tackle PBMs. And like you said, it’s bipartisan. Whether it’s this bill or which particular bills it’s hard to know, because Senate Finance Committee is sort of working on their own plan. A number of committees in the House are looking at it, other parts of the Senate. So to me, it seems like there’s reasonable odds that something gets done maybe this spring or summer on PBMs. But it’s hard to know, like, the exact shape of the final legislation. It’s pretty early at this point to figure out exactly how it all, you know, teases out.

Rovner: We have seen in the past things that are very bipartisan get stuck nonetheless. Well, across the Capitol, meanwhile, the House Energy and Commerce Committee is also looking at bipartisan issues in health care, including — as they are in the Senate — how to increase price transparency and competition, which also, I hasten to add, includes regulating PBMs. But, Jessie, there was some actual news out of the hearing at Energy and Commerce from Chiquita Brooks-LaSure, who runs the federal Medicare and Medicaid programs. What did she say?

Hellmann: So they’ve instituted two fines against hospitals that haven’t been complying with the price transparency requirements. So I think that brings the number of hospitals that they’ve fined to, like, less than five. Please fact-check that, but I’m pretty sure that I can count it on one hand.

Rovner: One hand. They have, they have actually fined a small number of hospitals under the requirement. Yeah. I mean, we’ve known — we’ve talked about this for a while, that these rules have been in effect since the beginning of 2022, right? And a lot of hospitals have just been not doing it or they’re supposed to be showing their prices in a consumer-understandable way. And a lot of them just haven’t been. And I assume CMS is not happy with this.

Hellmann: Yeah, so Brooks-LaSure said yesterday that CMS is no longer going to issue warnings for hospitals that aren’t making a good-faith effort to comply with these rules. Instead, they’ll move straight to what’s called the corrective action phase, where basically hospitals are supposed to, like, say what they’re going to do to comply with these. And after that, they could get penalized. So we’ll see if that actually encourages hospitals to comply. One of the fines that they issued is like $100,000. And so I think some hospitals are viewing this, you know, as a cost of doing business because they think it would cost them more to comply with the price transparency rules than it would to not comply with them.

Rovner: So transparency here is still a work in progress. There’s also a fight in the House over the very wonky-sounding site-neutral payment policy in Medicare, which, like the surprise bill legislation from a few years back, is not so much a partisan disagreement as a fight between various sectors in the health care system. Can you explain what this is and what the fight’s about?

Hellmann: So basically hospital outpatient departments or, like, physician offices owned by hospitals get paid more than, like, independent physician’s offices for providing things like X-rays or drug administration and stuff like that. And so this is —

Rovner: But the same care. I mean, if you get it in a hospital outpatient or a doctor’s office, the hospital outpatient clinic gets paid more.

Hellmann: Yeah. And there’s not much evidence that shows that the care is any different or the quality is better in a hospital. And so this has kind of been something that’s been getting a lot of attention this year as people are looking for ways to reduce Medicare spending. It would save billions of dollars over 10 years, I think one think tank estimated about 150 billion over 10 years. It’s getting a lot of bipartisan interest, especially as we talk more about consolidation in hospitals, you know, buying up these physician practices, kind of rebranding them and saying, OK, this is outpatient department now, we get paid more for this. There are fewer independent physician’s offices than there used to be, and members have taken a really big interest in how consolidation increases health care prices, especially from hospitals. So it does seem like something that could pass. I will say that there is a lot of heat coming from the hospital industry. They released an ad on Friday last week warning about Medicare cuts, so, they usually do whenever anyone talks about anything that could hurt their bottom lines. Very generalist ad and kind of those “Mediscare” ads that we’ve been talking about. So it’ll be interesting to see if members can withstand the heat from such a powerful lobbying force.

Rovner: As we like to say, there’s a hospital in every single district, and most of them give money to members of Congress, so anything that has the objection of the hospital industry has an uphill battle. So we’ll see how this one plays out. Let us turn to abortion. The fate of the abortion pill mifepristone is still unclear, although the Supreme Court did prevent even a temporary suspension of its approval, as a lower court would have done. Now the case is back at the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals, which has swiftly scheduled a hearing for May 17. But it still could be months or even years before we know how this is going to come out, right, Shefali?

Luthra: It absolutely could be. So the fastest that we could expect to see this case before the Supreme Court again, just — what from folks I’ve talked to is, I mean, we have this hearing May 17, depending on how quickly the 5th Circuit rules, depending on how they rule, there is a chance that we could see if we get, for instance, an unfriendly ruling toward mifepristone, the federal government could appeal to the Supreme Court this summer. We could see if the Supreme Court is willing to take the case. The earliest that means that they would hear it would be this fall, with a decision in the spring a year from now, but that would be quite fast. I think what’s striking about it is that we may all recall last year, when the Supreme Court issued its decision in the Dobbs case, they said this will put the issue of abortion back in the hands of the states, out of the judiciary, we will no longer be involved. And anyone at the time could have told you there’s no way that this would happen because it is too complicated of an issue, when you undo 50 years of precedent, to assume there will be no more legal questions. And here we are. Those critics have been proven right, because who could have seen that, once again, we’d have the courts being asked to step in and answer more questions about what it means when a 50-year right is suddenly gone?

Rovner: Indeed. And of course, we have the … [unintelligible] … This is going to be my next question, about whether this really is all going to be at the state level or it’s going to be at the state and the federal level. So as red states are rushing to pass as many restrictions as they can, some Republicans seem to be recognizing that their party is veering into dangerously unpopular territory, as others insist on pressing on. We saw a great example of this over the weekend. Former vice president and longtime anti-abortion activist Mike Pence formally split on the issue with former President Trump, with Pence calling for a federal ban and not just leaving the issue to the states. Nikki Haley, the former governor of South Carolina and the lone woman in the Republican field so far, managed to anger both sides with the speech she made at the headquarters of the hard-line anti-abortion group the Susan B. Anthony List. Haley’s staff had suggested ahead of time that she would try to lay out a middle ground, but she said almost nothing specific, which managed to irritate both full abortion abolitionists and those who support more restrained action. Is this going to be a full-fledged war in the Republican Party?

Luthra: I think it has to be. I mean, the anti-abortion group is still very powerful in the Republican Party. If you would like to win the nomination, you would like their support. That is why we know that Ron DeSantis pursued a six-week ban in Florida despite it being incredibly unpopular, despite it now alienating many people who would be his donors. This is just too important of a constituency to annoy. But unfortunately, you can’t really compromise on national abortion policy if you’re running for president. A national ban, no matter what week you pick, it’s not a good sound bite. We saw what happened last year when Sen. Lindsey Graham put forth his national 15-week ban: Virtually no other even Republicans wanted to endorse that, because it’s a toxic word to say, especially in this post-Dobbs environment, especially now that we have all of this polling, including NPR polling from yesterday, that showed us that abortion bans remain quite unpopular and that people don’t trust Republicans largely on this issue. I think this is going to be incredibly interesting because we are going to eventually have to see Nikki Haley take a stance. We will have to see Donald Trump, I think, frankly, be a bit more committal than he has been, because meanwhile, he has lately told people publicly that he would not issue any federal policy, would leave this up to the states, we also know that he has said different things in other conversations. And at some point those conflicts are going to come to a head. And what Republicans realize is that their party’s stance and the stance they need to take to maintain favor with this important group is just not a winning issue for most voters. People don’t want abortion banned.

Rovner: Yeah, it’s a real problem. And Republicans are seeing they have no idea how to sort of get out of this box canyon, if you will. Well, back in the states, things seem to be getting even more restrictive. In Oklahoma this week NPR has another of those wrenching stories about pregnant women unable to get emergency health care. This time, a woman, a mom of three kids already with a nonviable and cancerous pregnancy who was told literally to wait in the hospital parking lot until she was close enough to death to obtain needed care. And that case turned out not to be an outlier. A quote-unquote “secret shopper” survey of hospitals in Oklahoma found that a majority of the 34 hospitals contacted could not articulate what their policy was in case of pregnancy complications or how they would determine if the pregnant person’s life was actually in danger. I can’t imagine Oklahoma is the only state where this is the case. We have a lot of these bans and no idea where sort of the lines are, even if they have exceptions.

Luthra: We know that this is not isolated to Oklahoma. There is a lawsuit in Texas right now with a group of women suing the state because they could not access care that would save their lives. One of those plaintiffs testified in Congress about this yesterday. Doctors in virtually every state with an abortion ban have said that they do not know what the medical exceptions really are in practice other than that they have to wait until people are on death’s door because there isn’t — medical emergency isn’t really a technical term. These bills, now laws, were written without the expertise of actual physicians or clinicians because they were never really supposed to take effect. This really has been just another example of a way that the dog chased the car and now the dog has the car.

Rovner: And the dog has no idea what to do with the car. Well, meanwhile, in Iowa, the attorney general has paused the state’s policy of paying for abortions as well as emergency contraception for rape victims. This is where I get to rant briefly that emergency contraception and the abortion pill are totally different, that emergency contraception does not cause abortion — it only delays ovulation after unprotected sex and thus is endorsed for rape victims in Catholic health facilities across Europe. OK, end of rant. I expect we’re going to see more of this from officials in red states, though, right, with going — not just going after abortions, but going after things that are not abortion, like emergency contraception.

Luthra: And I mean, if we look at what many of the hard-line anti-abortion groups advocate, they don’t just want to get rid of abortion. They specifically name many forms of hormonal contraception, but specifically the emergency contraception Plan B, and they oppose IUDs [intrauterine devices]. It would just be so, so surprising if those were not next targets for Republican states.

Rovner: So abortion isn’t the only culture war issue being fought out in state legislatures. There’s also a parallel effort in lots of red states to curtail the ability of trans people, mostly but not solely teenagers, to get treatment or, in some cases, to merely live their lives. According to The Washington Post, as of the middle of this month, state legislators have introduced more than 400 anti-trans bills just since January. That’s more than the previous four years combined. Nearly 30 of them have become law. Now, I remember in the early aughts when anti-gay and particularly anti-gay marriage bills were the hot items in red states. Today, with some notable exceptions, gay marriage is as routine as any other marriage. Is it possible that all these attacks on trans people, by making them more visible, could have the same effect? In other words, could this have the opposite effect as the people who are pushing it intended? Or am I just looking for a silver lining here?

Luthra: I think it’s too soon to say. There isn’t incredible polling on this issue, but we do know that in general, like, this is not an issue that even Republicans pick their candidates for. It’s not like they are driven to the ballot box because they hate trans people this much. I wouldn’t at all be surprised if there is a backlash, just because what we are hearing is so, frankly, horrific. What I have been really struck by, in addition to the parallels to anti-gay marriage, have been the ways in which restrictions on access to health care for trans people really do parallel attacks to abortion in particular, thinking about, for instance, passing laws that restrict access to care for minors, passing laws that restrict Medicaid from paying for care, that restrict how insurance covers for care. It’s almost spooky how similar these are, because people often think minors are easier to access first. People often think health insurance is an easier, sort of almost niche issue to go for first. And what we don’t often see until afterward is that these state-by-state laws have made care largely inaccessible. The other thing that I think about all the time is that these are obviously, in both cases, forms of health care restriction that are largely opposed by the medical community, that are often crafted without the input of actual medical expertise, and that target health care that does feel incredibly difficult to extricate from the patient’s gender.

Rovner: Yeah. The other thing is that people are going from state to state, just like with abortion. In order to get health care, they’re having to cross state lines and in some cases move. I mean, we’re starting to see this.

Luthra: The high-profile example being Dwyane Wade, formerly of the Miami Heat, moving away from Florida because of his child.

Karlin-Smith: The other thing, Julie, you were saying in terms of how optimistic to be, in terms of maybe the other side of this issue sort of pushing back and overcoming it, is that Politico had this good story this week about doctors in states where this care is perfectly legal and permissible but they’re getting so many threats and essentially their health care facilities feel that they’re so much in danger that they are concerned about how to safely provide and help these people that they do want to help and give care, while also not putting their families and so forth in danger, which perhaps also has a parallel to some of how there’s tons of, like, constant protests outside abortion clinics. And people have volunteered for years just to kind of escort people so they can safely feel comfortable getting there, which of course is, you know, can be very traumatic to patients trying to get care.

Rovner: Yeah, the parallels are really striking. So we will watch that space too. All right. That is the news for this week. Now, we will play my “Bill of the Month” interview with Renuka Rayasam. Then we will come back and share our extra credit. We are pleased to welcome to the podcast Renuka Rayasam, who reported and wrote the latest KFF Health News-NPR “Bill of the Month” story. Renu, welcome to “What the Health?”

Renuka Rayasam: Thanks, Julie. Thanks for having me.

Rovner: So this month’s patient was pregnant with twins when she experienced a complication. Tell us who she is, where she’s from, and what happened.

Rayasam: Sure. Sara Walsh was 24 weeks pregnant with twins — it was Labor Day weekend in 2021 — and she started to feel something was off. She had spent a long time waiting to have a pregnancy that made it this far — eight years, she told me. But instead of feeling excited, she started to feel really nervous and she knew something was off. And so on Tuesday, she went to her regular doctor. And then on Wednesday, after that Labor Day, she went to her maternal fetal specialist, who diagnosed her with a pretty rare pregnancy complication that can occur when you have twins, when you have multiple fetuses that share blood unevenly through the same placenta. And it’s called twin-to-twin transfusion syndrome. And, you know — and this was Wednesday — she went into the office in the morning and she waited a long time for the doctor to kind of come back with the results, she and her husband, and just kind of spent the morning sort of back-and-forth between her maternal fetal specialist and her OB-GYN. And they told her she needed to get treatment immediately, that if she didn’t have treatment that she could lose one or both twins, she herself could even die. She needed to keep her fluid intake low. So they referred her to a specialist about four hours away from where she was. She was in Winter Haven, Florida, and they referred her to a specialist near Miami. And the specialist there apparently does not contract with any private insurance. And so that afternoon, hours after her diagnosis, she was packing her bags; she was getting ready to go, figuring out a place to stay, a hotel room and all that. And she gets a call from the billing office of this specialist in Coral Gables, Florida, near Miami. And they said, “Listen, we don’t contract with private insurance. You have to pay upfront for the pre surgical consultation for the surgery and then the post-surgical consult. And you need to have that money before you show up tomorrow in our office at 8 a.m.”

Rovner: And how much money was it?

Rayasam: About $15,000 in total for the consultations and the surgery itself. She told me she burst into tears. She didn’t want to lose these twins. She wasn’t given any option of shopping around for another provider. And she spent some time trying to figure out what to do. She couldn’t get a medical credit card because I guess there’s a 24-hour waiting period and she didn’t have that long. And so finally, her mother let her borrow her credit card. She checked into a hotel at midnight and at 8 a.m. the next morning she handed over her credit card and her mother’s credit card before she could have the procedure — before she could even see the doctor, I should say.

Rovner: And the outcome was medically good, right?

Rayasam: Yeah. The provider who did her surgery is a pioneer in this field. And that was why those doctors sent Sara to this provider, Dr. Ruben Quintero. He came up with this staging system that helps assess the symptom’s severity and even pioneered the treatment for it. But he sort of used all that to kind of say, OK, you have to pay me; I’m not even going to deal with insurance in this case. And so that afternoon, it was that Thursday, the day after she was diagnosed, she had a procedure, it went well, she had a couple of follow-ups in the following weeks. And then five weeks later, she delivered premature but otherwise healthy twin girls.

Rovner: So is that even legal for a doctor to say, “I’m not even going to look at you unless you pay me some five-figure amount”?

Rayasam: Generally, no. We have the federal No Surprises Act, as you know, and that’s meant to do away with surprise billing. But that was really designed for kind of inadvertent medical bills or surprises. Things get really complicated when there’s this appearance of choice where, you know, she had time to call the insurer, she had time to call the provider. It wasn’t as if she was unconscious and sort of rushed to the nearest doctor. Technically, she had a choice here. She could have chosen not to get the procedure. She could have gone to a different state. But obviously, those are not real choices in her situation when she needed the procedure so urgently. And so in those cases, you know, the billing experts I spoke with said this is a real loophole in federal billing legislation and state surprise billing legislation because the bill wasn’t a surprise. She knew how much to expect upfront. And that’s what makes this situation tricky.

Rovner: And she knew that the doctor wasn’t in network.

Rayasam: Absolutely. She knew the doctor wasn’t in network, and she knew how much she had to pay, and she willingly forked over the money, of course, as anyone would have in that situation or tried to in that situation.

Rovner: So after the fact, she went back to her insurance company to see if they could work something out, since it was pretty much the only place she could have gone at that point to get the treatment. But that didn’t go so well.

Rayasam: That didn’t go so well, and it’s one complication in this story that I myself don’t know what to make of, but the provider does not contract with any insurer, I should say. But he did take her insurance card and — or, the billing person did — and they say that they bill as a courtesy to the patient. So they file the paperwork for the patient. They say, “OK, your insurer will reimburse you. We’re going to provide all the paperwork.” In Sara’s case, it took a long time for this doctor and his practice to get Blue Cross Blue Shield the paperwork they needed to kind of pay for her claim. And in addition to that, they didn’t really send over the right paperwork right away. So it took a long time. And eventually she got only $1,200 back and she ended up paying far more than that out-of-pocket.

Rovner: And of course, the next obvious question is, doesn’t her insurance have an out-of-pocket maximum? How did she ever end up spending this much?

Rayasam: That’s a great question. We reached out to her insurer, and they didn’t really give us much of an explanation, but they, you know, on their billing statements and what they said to her was, “Hey, you went willingly out of network; this doesn’t qualify you for those out-of-pocket maximums.” They didn’t give us an explanation as to why. This seems to be a classic case of where those maximums should apply. But like I said, I think, you know, she had very little recourse. She tried to appeal the bills. She’s, you know, been on the phone with her insurer multiple times. The thing that makes this story more complicated is that it’s such a rare procedure and there aren’t that many providers in the country that even perform this procedure. So at first she was having to struggle with billing codes and all that with her insurance, so a lot of the people she was dealing with on the insurance side were really confused. It wasn’t something that they had a playbook for, knew what to do with, and that’s what made this a little bit more complicated.

Rovner: So what’s the takeaway here? I mean, obviously this was a rare complication, but if you multiply the number of rare complications of different things, you’re talking about a lot of people. Is there any way to get around this? I mean, it sounds like she did everything she could have in this case.

Rayasam: She did. In this case, it turns out there was another provider in Florida. There was no way for her to know that. Neither her OB-GYN nor the maternal fetal specialist told her about this other provider. I found out about it. I called around and did the reporter thing. And there are now four providers in Florida that will treat this. But of course, you know, if I was a patient, I wouldn’t shop around and risk my pregnancy either. So it’s unfortunate, in this case, there’s not much a person can do other than make sure that they’re keeping all the paperwork. And, you know, one thing that one of the billing experts I spoke with told me is that when you pay upfront, it makes things a lot harder. And in this case, like I said, she didn’t have a choice. But if there’s ever a way to get the bill on the back end, then there’s more of an incentive for the provider and the insurer to work together to get paid. But once the provider was paid, the insurer is not going to rush to reimburse the patient.

Rovner: And the provider is not going to rush to help the insurer figure out what to do. Ah well, another cautionary tale. Renu Rayasam, thank you so much.

Rayasam: Thank you.

Rovner: OK, we’re back and it’s time for our extra credit segment. That’s when we each recommend a story we read this week we think you should read too. As always, don’t worry if you miss it. We will post the links on the podcast page at kffhealthnews.org and in our show notes on your phone or other mobile device. Sarah, why don’t you go first this week?

Karlin-Smith: Sure. I took a look at a story in The Wall Street Journal, “Weight-Loss Drugmakers Lobby for Medicare Coverage. Adding Ozempic, Mounjaro to federal plans could stoke sales.” It really documents well sort of the range of lobbying organizations and groups and where they’re sort of putting money to try and get Medicare to shift its policies and cover treatments for obesity, which was something that in the early creations of Part D was banned. And I think largely at that time it was because weight loss was seen as more of a cosmetic treatment than something that impacted health in the same way we appreciate now.

Rovner: And also, there wasn’t anything that worked.

Karlin-Smith: Right. The things that prior to this, the things that were available at different times were not very effective and in some cases turned out to be fairly unsafe. And of course, now we have treatments that seem to work very well for a number of people, but there’s a fear of just how much money it would cost Medicare. So the other interesting thing in this story is they talk about some lawmakers in Congress thinking about ways to maybe narrowly start opening the floodgates to access by potentially maybe limiting it to people with certain BMIs [body mass indexes] or things like that to maybe not have the initial cost hit they might be concerned about with it.

Rovner: And of course, whether Medicare covers something is going to be a big factor in whether private insurance covers something. So it’s not just the Medicare population I think we’re talking about here.

Karlin-Smith: Right. There’s already I know lobbying going on around that. My colleague wrote a story a few weeks ago about Cigna sort of pushing back about having those drugs be included potentially in, like, the essential health benefits of the ACA [Affordable Care Act]. So it’s going to be, yeah, a broader issue than just Medicare.

Rovner: Yeah, it’s a lot. I mean, I remember when the hepatitis C drugs came out and we were all so, you know, “Oh my God, how much this is going to cost, but it cures hepatitis C.” But I mean, that’s not nearly as many people as we’re talking about here. Jessie, why don’t you go next?

Hellmann: My stories from Politico. It’s called “Gun Violence Is Actually Worse in Red States. It’s Not Even Close.” It takes a weird twist that I was not expecting. Basically, the premise is about how gun deaths are actually higher in areas like Texas and Florida. They have higher per capita firearm deaths, despite messaging from some Republican governors that it’s actually, like, you know, cities like Chicago and New York that are like war zones, I think it’s the former president said. The author kind of makes an interesting argument I didn’t see coming about how he thinks who colonized these areas plays into kind of like the culture. And he argues that Puritans like had more self-restraint for the common good. And so areas like that have less firearm deaths where, you know, the Deep South people were — had like a belief in defending their honor, the honor of their families. So they were kind of more likely to take up arms. Not sure how I feel about this argument, but I thought it was an interesting story and an interesting argument, so —

Rovner: It is. It’s a really good story. Shefali.

Luthra: My story is from The Washington Post. It is called “The Conservative Campaign to Rewrite Child Labor Laws.” It’s a really great look at this Florida-based group called the Foundation for Government Accountability, which, despite its innocuous-sounding name, is trying to help states make it easier to employ children. This is really striking because we have seen, in states like Arkansas, efforts to make it easier to employ people younger than 16 in some cases, which is just really interesting to watch in these states that talk about protecting children and protecting life to, to then make it easier to, to employ kids.

Rovner: And in dangerous profess — in dangerous jobs sometimes. I mean, we’re not talking about flipping burgers.

Luthra: No, no. We’re talking about working in, like, in meat plants, for instance. But I think what’s also interesting is that this same organization that has made it easier to employ children has also tried to fight things like anti-poverty and try to fight things like Medicaid expansion, which is just sort of, if you’re thinking about it from an access-to-health standpoint, like, anti-poverty programs and Medicaid are shown to make people healthier. It’s sort of a really interesting look into a worldview that in many ways uses one kind of language but then advance the policy agenda that takes us in a different direction.

Rovner: Maybe we should go back to to Jessie’s story and depend on who settled that part of the country. We shall see. Speaking of history, my story’s from The Nation, and it’s called “The Poison Pill in the Mifepristone Lawsuit That Could Trigger a National Abortion Ban,” by Amy Littlefield. And it’s about the Comstock Act, which is a law from the Victorian era — it was passed in 1873 — that banned the mailing of, quote, “lewd materials,” including articles about abortion or contraception. A lot has been written about the Comstock Act of late because it was used to justify part of the opinion in the original mifepristone case out of Amarillo. But what this article makes clear is that reviving the law is actually a carefully calculated strategy to make abortion illegal everywhere. So this is not something that just popped up in this case. It’s a really interesting read. OK, that is our show. As always. if you enjoyed the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left us a review; that helps other people find us too. Special thanks, as always, to our ever-patient producer, Francis Ying. As always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org. Or you can tweet me, at least for now. I’m @jrovner. Sarah?

Karlin-Smith: I’m @SarahKarlin.

Rovner: Jessie.

Hellmann: @jessiehellmann.

Rovner: Shefali.

Luthra: @Shefalil.

Rovner: We’ll be back in your feed next week. Until then, be healthy.

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Supreme Court justices could act at any moment on access to the abortion pill mifepristone. Beyond reproductive health, their ruling could carry significant implications for states’ rights and FDA independence and integrity. For now, though, observers are unsure what the court will do — or what exactly prompted justices to again delay their decision this week.

At the Capitol, lawmakers grumbled, scoffed, and bickered this week as House Speaker Kevin McCarthy revealed the Republican proposal to cut government spending. The package would be dead-on-arrival in the Democratic-controlled Senate. But of note is the pushback from within McCarthy’s own caucus, with some hard-right conservatives pressing to go further by demanding the repeal of the Inflation Reduction Act in exchange for raising the debt ceiling.

And President Joe Biden pursued new efforts to grant legal status to young immigrants living in the country illegally who were brought here as children, sometimes called “Dreamers,” as his administration announced a plan to grant them access to government-funded health coverage.

This week’s panelists are Mary Agnes Carey of KFF Health News, Rachel Cohrs of Stat, Sandhya Raman of CQ Roll Call, and Joanne Kenen of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico.

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Rachel Cohrs
Stat News

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Joanne Kenen
Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico

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Sandhya Raman
CQ Roll Call

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Read Sandhya's stories

Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:

• The Supreme Court extended its stay on the use of mifepristone through Friday, giving justices longer to act on a major, complicated case with nationwide implications for reproductive health. It is unclear what the court will do, though there are several actions it could take — including sending the case back to the lower courts or again extending the stay and buying justices even more time to come to agreement or pen dissents.
• GenBioPro, which produces the generic version of mifepristone, sued the FDA on Wednesday, attempting to preserve access to the drug. About two-thirds of the mifepristone currently used in the United States is generic.
• In congressional news, House Speaker McCarthy released what is effectively Republicans’ opening offer in the fight over raising the debt ceiling. The package includes GOP health priorities that would not garner needed support in the Senate, like work requirements for Medicaid and the clawback of unspent covid-19 pandemic funds.
• While health costs are high across government programs, Medicaid takes the big hit in the Republican proposal to cut federal spending. Republicans have embraced work requirements for government assistance since at least the 1980s, yet in Arkansas — a state that implemented work rules for Medicaid — it has proved challenging to verify that enrollees are meeting those requirements.
• The Senate Finance Committee, which has jurisdiction over much of federal health spending, revealed a package this week to tackle drug pricing. While the proposal is in the early stages, it seeks to incorporate bipartisan measures touching pharmacy benefit managers, insulin users, and more.
• And on the coverage front, the Biden administration announced that immigrant kids brought to the United States who remain here under the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals program will be able to apply for Medicaid and Affordable Care Act coverage. This eligibility expansion comes as states prepare to disenroll those who no longer qualify for Medicaid as the public health emergency’s coverage protections expire. Expect a fight from some states as they resist being forced to cover insurance for individuals living in the U.S. without legal permission.

Plus, for “extra credit,” the panelists suggest health policy stories they read this week that they think you should read, too:

Mary Agnes Carey: The New York Times’ “A Beauty Treatment Promised to Zap Fat. For Some, It Brought Disfigurement,” by Anna Kodé

Joanne Kenen: The New York Times’ “My Transplanted Heart and I Will Die Soon,” by Amy Silverstein

Sandhya Raman: ABC News’ “Puerto Rico’s Water Supply Is Being Depleted, Contaminated by Manufacturing Industry on the Island, Experts Say,” by Jessie DiMartino, Lilia Geho, and Julia Jacobo

Rachel Cohrs: The Wall Street Journal’s “‘I Hate You, Kathie Lee Gifford!’ Ozempic Users Report Bizarre Dreams,” by Peter Loftus

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Transcript: Will They or Won’t They (Block the Abortion Pill)?

KFF Health News’ ‘What the Health?’Episode Title: Will They or Won’t They (Block the Abortion Pill)?Episode Number: 294Published: April 20, 2023

[Editor’s note: This transcript, generated using transcription software, has been edited for style and clarity.]

Mary Agnes Carey: Hello and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Mary Agnes Carey, partnerships editor for KFF Health News. I’m filling in this week for Julie Rovner, and I’m joined by some of the best and smartest health reporters in Washington. We’re taping this week on Thursday, April 20, at 10 a.m. Eastern. As always, news happens fast and things might have changed by the time you hear this. So here we go. Joining us today by video conference are Joanne Kenen of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico.

Joanne Kenen: Hi, everybody.

Carey: Rachel Cohrs of Stat.

Cohrs: Morning, everyone.

Carey: And Sandhya Raman of CQ Roll Call.

Raman: Good morning.

Carey: Let’s start with the current court action on mifepristone. The Supreme Court was scheduled to rule yesterday on a decision from the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 5th Circuit that rolled back FDA action since 2016, allowing patients to get mifepristone through the mail, authorizing prescriptions by medical professionals other than doctors, and approving the drug’s use up to 10 weeks into a pregnancy instead of seven. Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito Jr, who’d previously set Wednesday as the deadline for the court to act, extended that stay until Friday, and the justices could certainly act before they choose to —hopefully not while we’re taping. But I wanted to get everyone’s thoughts on why do you think the court didn’t act yesterday? Joanne, can I start with you?

Kenen: I mean, presumably they’re still hashing it out. There’re probably two or three judges who are still thinking about it or discussing it with their colleagues, or colleagues who want to think they can persuade them to their side. I mean, there’s something internal. On the other hand, I mean, they didn’t originally give themselves a lot of time to consider a complicated and historic case. We know there’s an anti-abortion majority. We know they’re not crazy about medical abortions any more than they are about surgical abortions. But this has large implications about states’ rights and about the sort of integrity of the FDA. So they may just wanted to sleep on it. They’re human, but the two sides are battling for two or three in the middle.

Carey: So what does this signal about how they might rule? I mean, to your point about the split, the battle, what are the options? What do you — Sandhya, what do you think about what they might —

Kenen: Well, if it was slam dunk, we’d have had it.

Carey: That is true. That is true. It is not a slam dunk.

Raman: And everyone that I have talked to in the last few weeks on this is just that there are so many different options, different permutations, that it’s difficult even for people that are experts on FDA policy, like expert lawyers, experts on abortion policy, to just kind of like predict the nuances. You know, they could let the stay expire. They could send it back to the 5th Circuit. They could decide to hold arguments and let it expire or not expire. They could decide something different than the 5th Circuit. You know, there’s so many different ways that things could happen that I think it makes it difficult. And then yesterday, the other manufacturer of mifepristone, GenBioPro, also filed suit against the FDA. So now we have, since Dobbs, like five different lawsuits related to mifepristone and three of them, post-Dobbs, are related to the FDA in particular. And I think it just gets very, very complicated to make a decision, even if ideologically some people might align with one way versus the other, given all of these different permutations and that we still have that Washington case that is attacking another part of this. So it’s just complicated to get people to do something. And the fact that this case has been moving so, so quickly.

Carey: Could we be in the same place on Friday? Could we get another stay? Could the justices certainly ask for more time, and are there any thoughts about the probability of that actually happening? Rachel, what are your thoughts?

Cohrs: I think they can do what they want.

Carey: That’s true.

Cohrs: They gave themselves time once more, and I think obviously there’s a benefit to having some certainty and predictability for people, for providers, but certainly they could stay again.

Carey: So, Sandhya, you just mentioned the Washington state case. So while this Texas ruling is before the Supreme Court, a federal district judge in Washington state issued a ruling in a separate case that instructed the FDA to not alter the current availability of the drug in 17 states and the District of Columbia. And as you just mentioned, a manufacturer of the generic version of the drug — the company’s name is GenBioPro; they make the generic version of mifepristone — they’re arguing that if the FDA implements a court order suspending approval of the drug, the agency would deprive the company of its rights to market the drug without due process of law. And as I understand, this company is a major manufacturer of the generic version of the drug, right? So let’s talk a bit more about this confusion of these split rulings. I mean, what is the public to make of it? What’s the reaction with facilities that are providing this medication or doctors who want to prescribe it or just the general public? The person who might be interested in this situation is very confused. I mean, talk a little bit about how people sort through it and what this means for them.

Raman: So the suit that was filed yesterday about the generic, they make two-thirds of the mifepristone that is used in the U.S. So if they were unable to be manufacturing theirs based on a ruling that only allowed the name-brand version of the drug, that’s a huge percentage of the market that is gone, and more than half of abortions are done through medication abortion. So that’s one thorn in it. And I think that another is that we have all of these states that have been stockpiling the drugs — several that have been, you know, in case they don’t know what is happening with the ruling. Washington is one of them. And there’s still not clarity depending on what happens with these cases of, you know, will they be able to use what that they have stockpiled? And then we have other states like New York and I think California that have been stockpiling misoprostol as another way to — in case there’s a court ruling that doesn’t go in their favor — to just give patients in their states access to medication abortion. I think that there are so many different permutations that it’s very difficult for even folks that are confident that the rule may go a different way to know what to predict, just because we’re in such uncertain territory, from all of the different former FDA officials that have said, “You know, this is a very different situation. We don’t even know, after decades of experience at the FDA, like, how this would play out, what it would mean, whether we’d have to pull everything off the market.” How it would play out, it’s just a lot of unknown territory given all of the different things going on.

Kenen: Well, also, whatever they do now isn’t necessarily the end of the story, right? I mean, if the court issues a stay, it will still go through the courts and it presumably ends up at the Supreme Court again. If they issue a stay pending full hearing of the case, it’ll be going on for months more. But either they issue a stay saying the 5th Circuit ruling, which did not totally — the lower federal court banned the use of the pill; the appeals court limited it to seven weeks instead of the FDA has ruled it’s for 10 weeks. So if they uphold the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals, there would still be use, but it would be limited. If they put a stay saying, “Yes, it can stay legal in the states that allow it for now,” then it would still be legal in those states but we’d still be back discussing what is the Supreme Court going to do a couple of months from now.

Carey: And how — where is the drug industry on this? I mean, this would have sweeping ramifications.

Kenen: They’re horrified. One of you might know the number — was it like 250 companies signed the brief that you’re going to have a court decide what drug is safe and what drug is not safe, rather than the FDA? I mean, the pharmaceutical company fights with the FDA all the time, but they need the FDA and they know they need the FDA and they admit they need the FDA. You know, you have one voice in this country saying a drug is safe or a drug is not safe or a drug is safe under the following conditions.

Raman: There have been hundreds of the drug companies that have spoken out against it, and PhRMA [Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America] more recently also finally came out against it. It’s been pretty uniform in a way that I have not really seen in the past where there have been, you know, the drug companies, the various people that have been regulators, the folks that are in favor of abortion rights, then just advocates — and just very unified in this response.

Carey: Rachel, what is the impact of the drug industry’s weighing in in this manner? How could that shape the decision? Was there anything surprising in how they worked together on this? I know you’ve done some reporting on this area.

Cohrs: Yes. Yeah. So I think certainly them actually filing briefs with the court will kind of help drive home the ramifications of this, just on a much larger scale. I mean, we’re not just talking about abortion now. We’re talking about any medication that could be at all controversial. You know, we’re talking PrEP for HIV. You know, there are so many areas where companies genuinely are concerned about lawsuits and about judges who aren’t experts. So I think this uniform voice will drive home the larger impacts here beyond this one issue. And also, I think, the drug industry has significant resources to invest. And I think, it took a little while, but the trade groups PhRMA and BIO [Biotechnology Innovation Organization] have said that they are willing to invest, and they haven’t made any specific commitments, but certainly I think down the line there could be legal challenges. And now that they have put themselves out there, they certainly are a significant player in the space, with resources.

Raman: The drug industry is also a huge player in, you know, donating to various campaigns and lobbying on the Hill. And it’s definitely going to be — put increasingly different folks in a tight spot if they are receiving a lot of backing from the pharmaceutical industry and if they’ve spoken out in favor of restricting the drug. And it’ll be interesting to see kind of as it goes on what happens there with some of these folks.

Carey: Sure. Well that’s a perfect segue way because we have lawmakers on Capitol Hill are also weighing in on this. About 150 Republicans are urging the Supreme Court to uphold the 5th Circuit’s ruling, while more than 250 Democrats have urged the court to not prevent access to mifepristone. Are Republicans taking a political risk here speaking out? Because I know it’s been talked about on the podcast before, about the abortion rights opponents have some splits on how far to go on some of these restrictions on abortion. You know, Republicans didn’t really seem eager to engage when the decision came out, but now they are. What does that mean? What do you make of it?

Raman: We’ve had that delay first that, you know, a lot of Republicans did not even comment on the case, which was kind of interesting, given that, you know, after a lot of these decisions, we see a lot from both sides kind of weighing in. And I think when you look at some of these briefs, they say a lot of the similar talking points as before, which is something that you can kind of look to. But I mean, the conversation is still moving, even on the Hill. Yesterday, Robert Califf from the FDA was facing questions about mifepristone from different Republicans, from Cindy Hyde-Smith, who had agreed with the lower court decision, from Susan Collins, who was kind of against the decision as one of the Republicans who generally supports abortion rights. And I think it’ll be very interesting if this gets taken up by a committee that has jurisdiction over the FDA, which we have not really seen a commitment to. Energy and Commerce [Committee] Democrats have asked for something on this to come up. But, you know, under Republican leadership, I don’t know that that would necessarily happen. The only committee that is really committed to looking at this issue has been, like, Senate Judiciary, which with Democratic control is going to look a different way. And they don’t really have the jurisdiction over FDA in the same way as some of the other committees do. So I think that’ll be interesting to look at if that changes.

Kenen: There is a divide in the Republican Party about how far to go. I mean, some are for rape and incest exceptions, some are not. Some are for six weeks, some are for 15 weeks, some are for zero weeks. This is reflecting those divisions. It also depends on the individual lawmaker’s district. You know, if you come from an extremely conservative district and you are an anti-abortion absolutist, then you’re going to speak out on this. But we’ve noted they don’t really want to antagonize pharma either. So you’ve seen, I guess it’s 150ish — you haven’t seen all of them. It’s a complicated issue for some of them, given the competing interests, you know. Is abolishing all abortions in the United States of America your top goal? In which case you’re going to want to support the lower court. If you have a more nuanced view, where you’re worried about precedent for overriding the FDA, you have competing — I mean, there are very few abortion rights Republicans, but they don’t all want to draw the line in the same place.

Carey: So while we’re on the subject of Capitol Hill, let’s talk about the debt ceiling. We have a little bit of action there this week. Speaker of the House Kevin McCarthy unveiled his plan to raise the debt ceiling. McCarthy and many Republicans have said they don’t want to raise the debt ceiling without spending cuts. President Biden and many Democrats are pushing for a clean debt ceiling increase. So among its provisions, Speaker McCarthy’s plan would cut federal spending by roughly $130 billion, and that would take spending back to fiscal 2022 levels. Health-related provisions include new work requirements for Medicaid and food stamp recipients, and the package would also claw back unspent covid aid funds. And there’s a bit of a twist on the work requirement proposals of the past: States could opt to keep those that don’t comply with the work rules covered under Medicaid, keep them on the rolls. But if they do, the state would bear the full cost of that coverage and forgo the federal money for those enrollees, right? The proposal also requires states to make use of existing resources like payroll databases, state health and human service agencies, to verify compliance with a work rule when possible. There’s a lot to unpack here. It’s pretty clear that, I mean, House Democrats aren’t going to vote for this. Does the speaker even have enough votes in his own caucus to pass it? I think he can only lose like four.

Kenen: TBD. But I don’t think the conventional wisdom is that he has the votes. You know, it’s a starting offer, but they can change, you know, has to go Rules [Committee]. They’ll change — you know, they could change things.

Carey: It is a starting offer. But your vote is next week and it’s Thursday. OK. Rachel, what’s your take on this?

Cohrs: Yeah, I think it was a bit of a roller coaster this week, as some members of the Freedom Caucus were demanding wholesale repeal of the Inflation Reduction Act around midweek, and they certainly backed off from that, especially the health care portion. So I think that is worth noting, at least right now. Again, unclear if he has the votes, or if the speaker has the votes, and then obviously Senate Democrats aren’t going to go for it and President Biden isn’t going to go for this. So I think, like Joanne said, it is kind of an opening offer here. And again, there isn’t a lot on Medicare in here. So I think we just, you know, finally, after so much rhetoric and so much back-and-forth, have some sort of tangible starting point from Republicans here, which is significant.

Kenen: But, you know, as soon as they made that pledge that we’re not going to touch Medicare, meaning traditional Medicare actually, and we’re not going to touch Social Security, we all knew that, Oh, that means that it’s all going to go to Medicaid. So this is a big Medicaid hit. And work rules have been something the Republicans have embraced at least since the Reagan era, maybe even before, but certainly since the 1980s. A few states tried them or at least said they were going to impose them under the Obama administration. At that point, the administration didn’t approve them and the courts didn’t uphold them. But we have a different court now. So I think this court would uphold; that’s likely. But this is not acceptable for Democrats, nor is it meant to be.

Raman: And when we had the various states propose these and in some cases implement them during the Trump administration, every single one of them was struck down by the court once, sometimes twice. You know, we had Arkansas, we had New Hampshire, we had Kentucky, we had Michigan. Every single time the judge at hand was, you know, “This is going against the function of Medicaid,” which — historically we’ve had work requirements in some of the other programs, but the way the Medicaid statute is written, it has been difficult to find a way to keep those in place. So if they were able to get that past, I mean, even the House, which seems like is a, is a question mark, I mean — whatever could get through would absolutely face court battles from some of the same folks that challenged them during the Trump administration.

Kenen: But I think the only one that actually went into effect was Arkansas. And in addition to it being thrown out by a court, it also just didn’t work. The mechanism didn’t work. It became really hard for people. The verification that you’re working, which this proposal actually addresses, that Mary Agnes just alluded to that, the verification was extraordinarily cumbersome. I mean, you had like lots of poor people in Arkansas — and rural Arkansas don’t have access to Internet — and you only had a few hours a day where you could use the portal and you have to leave work to go to the local library to prove that you were working. I mean, it was just — forget the ideology of it — the mechanics didn’t work, and people were thrown off even though they were compliant. And but this [is] just like a deep philosophical divide between the two parties, and they have compromised, and back in the Clinton years they compromised on welfare, what’s now called TANF [Temporary Assistance for Needy Families]. There’s work requirements for SNAP, for what we used to call food stamps. But Medicaid has been a red line for Democrats, that this is an entitlement based on health; it’s not like you deserve — some people deserve it and some people don’t. It’s been a philosophical, ideological, you know, something that Democrats feel very strongly about.

Cohrs: Oh, I just want to jump in on the covid money as well — much smaller deal, fewer impacts on patients — but it has been kind of interesting and over the last couple of weeks that the Biden administration has rolled out some new programs that cost quite a bit of money, as there’s this horizon, this call for Congress to claw back unspent covid funds. I mean, they’re spending $5 billion now on developing vaccines and therapeutics, $1 billion on vaccine access, when they said they didn’t have any money. So it’s just kind of interesting that, you know, when these funds are committed to a program legally, then Congress can’t claw them back. So I’m curious to see what else we’ll see as these negotiations solidify.

Carey: All right. We’ll keep our eye on it. And I want to just check in briefly on the Senate side. I know we’ve discussed these issues on the podcast before. The Senate Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee has been working on legislation focused on drug prices and pharmacy benefit managers. This morning we have a framework introduced from the Senate Finance Committee. It’s with Sen. Wyden, the chair from Oregon, who’s a Democrat, and Sen. Mike Crapo, Republican from Idaho, that also seeks to address PBMs in the prescription drug supply chain. We also have the moving, or maybe not moving, but introduce legislation, anything new there on insulin prices with Sen. Warnock and Sen. Kennedy to cap the out-of-pocket price at $35. Any movements there in the Senate, any insight you could offer?

Cohrs: On the Senate Finance [Committee] side, that is a very significant development, that they’ve decided to get in on the fun this week of putting together a package, just because their committees do have jurisdiction over so much federal spending. And Sen. Wyden has been involved in this issue. He’s put out — I found a package of bills from 2019, and, you know, he’s been on this issue a long time. So I think his team has proven they can craft big-picture, very impactful policy with the Inflation Reduction Act. So I think that’s certainly something to watch with that much federal spending on the line. And on insulin, you know, Sen. Schumer this week has committed to have some sort of insulin pricing provision in whatever package might come together — it’s still pretty amorphous — but it’s unclear what that’s going to look like. There is another proposal from Sen. Collins and Sen. Shaheen, two much more senior members of the caucus, and that mechanism works differently. For patients, it would look pretty similar. But on the back end, for insurers, for drugmakers, both of those programs would work differently. So they haven’t sorted that out yet. HELP hasn’t even picked a date for their hearing and formally announced it yet. So we are in early stages, but there’s certainly a lot swirling around.

Carey: Absolutely. And we’ll keep our eye on all of that as well. So I’d like to also chat a little bit about some ACA developments that happened this week. President Biden recently announced that hundreds of thousands of immigrants brought to the United States illegally as children will be able to apply for Medicaid and the Affordable Care Act’s health insurance exchanges. This allows participants in the Obama-era Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals program, also known as DACA, to access government-funded health insurance programs. You can expect pushback from conservative leaders of states that have been reluctant to expand Medicaid, possibly also pushback from Republican members of the Hill on this provision. And then, in other ACA news, the administration has finalized new rules that are aimed at making it easier for consumers to sign up for ACA plans, in particular those who are losing their coverage through Medicaid or the Children’s Health Insurance Program. The Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services, also known as CMS, will also give state marketplaces the option to hold a special enrollment period for people who lose their Medicaid or CHIP coverage. What could this possibly mean for enrollment in the program, right, to making it easier for DACA participants to enroll in the ACA or people losing their coverage through CHIP or Medicaid? I think it’s about 16 million people now in the program. Does this build more support for it? Are Republicans going to engage against it? Do they think that’s simply a losing battle because they’ve never agreed on an alternative?

Raman: I mean, right now, we’ve had historic levels of people in Medicaid and CHIP just because states have been unable to unenroll them from coverage during the public health emergency for covid. And now that states are starting to recheck their rolls and see who’s still eligible, who’s not eligible, we’ve been expecting just, you know, a big drop in different people that would be either getting uninsured or maybe moving to a different type of plan with a private or the exchanges. And I think it’s been something that, you know, states and the federal government have been working on for the entire time of just, you know, different ways to make sure that that drop-off in the number of uninsured folks doesn’t skyrocket as states are going through this process. And so I think the timing is important in that, you know, you’re trying to counteract the drop. And HHS [the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services] has been touting, you know, the high levels of uptake in the ACA and just like the low uninsured rate and this has been something they’ve just kind of been pushing, you know, month after month. This has been something that has been like a big achievement for them. And so now really like push comes to shove to say that, you know, it doesn’t drop off dramatically if you want to continue touting some of these achievements and making sure that people don’t drop off just because the emergency is ending and that guaranteed coverage isn’t there.

Kenen: So there are multiple issues in the question that are exposed, the DACA, which —

Carey: Of course it can’t be just one question I have to ask four at once.

Kenen: The DACA, which is also known as the Dreamers, Biden is trying to cover them. Democrats have been trying to give them legal status and got nowhere. In fact, they’re probably further away from that than they were five or six years ago. But to get them health coverage is something the Democrats — it’s like the least they can do to this population. But I can’t imagine there’s not going to be a political and/or a legal fight from the states who are going to have to pay for their share of it, right? I mean, Medicaid is a state-federal joint expenditure, and the states that don’t want to cover these people will well resist or sue. Or, I mean, everything ends up in court; I would imagine this will, too, or baked into the debt ceiling — you know, one more thing to fight about with the debt ceiling. So that’s one issue. I mean, the other issue is this unwinding of this huge Medicaid population. Most of these people are going to be eligible for some kind of coverage. Some of them are still going to be eligible for Medicaid. Some of them are going to be eligible for very good deals for sort of low-income working people on the ACA. And some have jobs that they can get insured through — theirs or a partner or a family member. But really, the only ones who are ineligible for anything would be those in the remaining Medicaid gap states. But that’s like theoretically, if we did everything right, the only people that would be ineligible are the Medicaid gap population, which is now down to about 10 states, assuming North Carolina, you know, finalizes their approval or, you know, enacts their expansion. But like, that’s the perfect world, and we don’t live in a perfect world. I mean, some of these people are going to get lost in the shuffle. And in fact, maybe several million; their estimates are like maybe 6 million, you know, no one knows. But, you know, our health care system is complicated. You know, getting a letter in the mail saying, you know, “Sayonara, Medicaid,” is not all of them will know how to negotiate new coverage even when they’re eligible, and we’re going to have to do a really good job of helping them. And that has to be from the federal government, from the state governments, from the health system itself, from advocates, from Congress. You know, everyone’s going to have to pitch in to get these people what they’re eligible for. And I don’t see that as an overnight success story. I think that there are people who should be covered and can be covered who won’t be covered. Eventually we’ll probably catch up and most of them enrolled. But I think that some of them have periods of uninsurance.

Carey: It’s absolutely a major undertaking. I know we’ll all be watching closely. OK, that’s the news for this week. Now it’s time for our extra credit segment. That’s when we each recommend a story we read this week and think you should read it too. As always, don’t worry if you miss it. We’ll post the links on our podcast page at kffhealthnews.org and in our show notes on your phone or other mobile device.

Kenen: I actually want to read the first sentence of this piece. This is a guest essay in The New York Times by Amy Silverstein. She’s a heart transplant recipient. She’s, I guess, about 60 now, and she’s about to die, not because her heart, her transplanted heart is failing — she writes about how she kept that in pristine condition — but because she’s got cancer. And it’s called “My Transplanted Heart and I Will Die Soon,” and it begins, “Today, I will explain to my healthy transplanted heart why, in what may be a matter of days or weeks at best, she — well, we — will die.” And in addition to being just a heart-tugger, I did not know a lot of what she explores about transplant medicine, that we think of transplants as medical miracles — and they are; you know, she had like an extra 35 years of life — but they’re also, transplant medicine itself hasn’t really, according to what she writes, transplant medicine itself — the drugs, the care they get, these heavy-duty drugs haven’t improved in 40 years. While she has a healthy heart, she has metastatic lung cancer because of these drugs. The medical care around transplant can be quite dangerous. And I knew nothing about that, and I’ve covered health for a long time. So it’s a tragic story and it’s also a scientific failure or a medical system or a medical research failure story that I hope a lot of people who have the power to change it read.

Carey: Sandhya, what’s your extra credit?

Raman: So my extra credit is from ABC News. It’s called “Puerto Rico’s Water Supply Is Being Depleted, Contaminated by Manufacturing Industry on the Island, Experts Say.” It’s a triple byline from Jessie DiMartino, Lilia Geho, and Julia Jacobo. And I thought their story was really interesting because it looks at the effects of the manufacturing industry on the water supply in Puerto Rico. The manufacturing there is, in Puerto Rico, is really high because there used to be a tax incentive that’s now lapsed to create a huge boom in manufacturing in the ’60s and ’70s. And kind of looking at the impacts of that, and over time and to the environment, and pharma manufacturing in particular, is 65% of what has been the industrial groundwater withdrawals. So in areas that rely heavily on groundwater on an island, this is felt especially hard. And so they go through a lot of the implications of some of that and how the manufacturing affects it, especially in an island with a finite water supply.

Carey: Rachel.

Cohrs: Mine is, the headline is, “‘I Hate You, Kathie Lee Gifford!’ Ozempic Users Report Bizarre Dreams,” in The Wall Street Journal and by Peter Loftus. Our newsroom has been covering the weight loss drug explosion this year, and I think this story was just so colorful and just a great example of reporting on the side effects that emerge when so many people are interested or want to take a drug. And I think there is certainly a public service to people understanding what they’re getting into and just hearing from all sorts of people, because certainly there are agencies who are supposed to be doing that. But I think there’s also just a lot of buzz that’s fascinating. The writing was just so rich and bizarre. And yeah, it was a great read and a great illustration on it, too.

Carey: Well, speaking of weight loss and getting fat out of our bodies, my story is from The New York Times, called “A Beauty Treatment Promised to Zap Fat. For Some, It Brought Disfigurement,” by Anna Kodé, and I hope I’m pronouncing your name correctly. You might have heard or seen all these ads about the treatment called CoolSculpting. It uses a device on a targeted part of the body to freeze fat cells. Patients typically undergo multiple treatments in the same area, and in successful cases, the cells die and the body absorbs them. “But for some people,” Anna writes, “the procedure results in severe disfigurement. The fat can grow, harden and lodge in the body, sometimes even taking on the shape of the device’s applicator.” The manufacturer says this is a rare side effect, but a Times investigation that drew on internal documents, lawsuits, medical studies, and interviews indicates the risk to patients may be considerably higher. So that’s our show. As always, if you enjoyed the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left a review; that helps other people find us too. Special thanks, as always, to our ever-patient producer, Francis Ying. And as always, you can email us with your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org. Or you can tweet me @maryagnescarey. Rachel?

Cohrs: @rachelcohrs.

Carey: Joanne?

Kenen: @JoanneKenen.

Carey: Sandhya.

Raman: @SandhyaWrites.

Carey: We’ll be back in your feed next week. Until then, be healthy.

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In 2014, Lisa French had spinal surgery. Before the operation, she was told she would have to pay $1,337 in out-of-pocket costs and that her insurance would cover the rest. However, the hospital ended up sending French a bill for $229,000. When she didn’t pay, it sued her.

The case went all the way to the Colorado Supreme Court. In this episode of “An Arm and a Leg,” host Dan Weissmann finds out how the court ruled and how the decision is reshaping the fine print on hospital bills in ways that could cost patients a lot of money.

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Host and producer of "An Arm and a Leg." Previously, Dan was a staff reporter for Marketplace and Chicago's WBEZ. His work also appears on All Things Considered, Marketplace, the BBC, 99 Percent Invisible, and Reveal, from the Center for Investigative Reporting.

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Transcript: A $229,000 Medical Bill Goes to Court

Note: “An Arm and a Leg” uses speech-recognition software to generate transcripts, which may contain errors. Please use the transcript as a tool but check the corresponding audio before quoting the podcast.

Dan: Hey there–

Lisa French was a clerk for a trucking company in Denver. She’d been in a car crash, and her doctor told her that to keep her spine stable, she ought to get surgery.

She asked the folks at the hospital what it was gonna cost her, out of pocket. They ran her insurance and told her: Your end is going to be one thousand, three hundred thirty-six dollars, and ninety cents.

She said, thanks.

Then, she and her husband sat down at their kitchen table and talked it over: They had a rainy-day fund. A thousand dollars they’d socked away, they kept it at home, in cash. Were they ready to spend it all for this? 

They decided they were, and Lisa went to the hospital with a thousand dollars cash. 

She had the surgery, it went fine. The hospital had been expecting about 55 thousand dollars from Lisa’s insurance. They actually got more like 74 thousand.

But they decided that wasn’t enough. They decided they wanted their full sticker price: 303 thousand dollars. So they billed Lisa French for the rest: 229 thousand dollars.

And when they didn’t get it, they sued her.

Lisa French had her surgery in 2014. The court case finally got resolved last year, in 2022, by the Colorado Supreme Court.

If you’ve been listening to this show for a while, you probably remember: We have gotten VERY interested in understanding, when we get a wild medical bill, what legal rights do we have? How can we use those rights to fight back? Even on a small scale, like in small claims court? 

And even though Lisa French’s case is a LONG way from small claims court, it has a LOT to teach us about these questions.

This is An Arm and a Leg, a show about why health care costs so freaking much, and what we can maybe do about it. I’m Dan Weissmann. I’m a reporter, and I like a challenge. So our job on this show is to take one of the most enraging, terrifying, depressing parts of American life, and bring you something entertaining, empowering, and useful.

And I should say upfront: We won’t be hearing from Lisa French directly.

Her case made a lot of headlines– in 2018, when a jury heard it, in YEAR when an appeals court overturned the trial court, and last year when the state supreme court made its ruling.

Not in the kind of detail that we’re gonna go into, but come on: Who can resist the headline?

Male Anchor: Well, tonight we have a story of David versus Goliath. David being a woman who needed spinal surgery in 2014 Goliath, the hospital that charged her more than $200,000 to do it.

Dan: So over the years, a lot of reporters wanted a sound bite from Lisa French. Her attorney used to let her know when there was an inquiry, and she’d say yes or no.

Eventually, she told her lawyer: Don’t even tell me when they call anymore. I just want to live my life.

Fair enough.

So here’s who we’ve got.

Ted Lavender: I’m Ted Lavender. I’m an attorney in Atlanta, Georgia. I’ve been practicing law for 26 years,

Dan: And he spent several of those years representing Lisa French.

It’s probably worth answering one question up front: If Lisa French had to empty her family’s rainy-day fund to pay the hospital a thousand bucks, who’s paying the lawyer from Atlanta?

The insurance from her job. Which had played a role in starting the whole mess.

Ted Lavender: the company that she worked for had a health benefits plan that was slightly different than what you might call run of the mill health insurance.

Dan: It worked this way: They weren’t in-network with any hospitals. Instead, they’d just take whatever bill any hospital sent, make their own evaluation of what a fair price would be, and send the hospital a check.

It’s a somewhat unusual model– one survey says about 2 percent of employers use a plan like this– but Ted Lavender says it often works.

Ted Lavender: a very large percentage of the time , the hospital would accept the check and no one would hear anything more from the hospital, which in legal parlance would mean acceptance

Dan: And as a backstop, in case there was any trouble, the health plan would send a lawyer. That’s Ted.

And here’s what happened that led to all the trouble in Lisa French’s case: Whoever ran her insurance card at the hospital, they didn’t read it very carefully.

If they had, they would’ve seen a little logo under the insurance-company name that said, “provider only” — that is: This plan only has doctors and nurses and other PROVIDERS in network.

With hospitals, there’s no network, no “in-network rate.” We’ll just send a check for what we think is right.

The same health-benefits company has a different plan, one that does have a hospital network. You know how it is. Insurance companies, a million different plans, every one its own snowflake.

The hospital mistook Lisa French’s snowflake for another one, and that’s how they came up with that estimate.

Ted Lavender: based on their calculation, they expected to collect a total of

$56,000, the 1,336 from Ms. French and the remainder from her health plan.

Dan: And they presumably would’ve been happy with 56 thousand. But they got more. They got about 75 thousand dollars.

But once they got it, they wised up to the mistake they had made about Lisa French’s insurance. They had no agreement with the insurance plan to accept 56 thousand.

So, they decided: There’s no reason for us not to charge our full sticker price here.Three hundred and three thousand dollars.

So Lisa French had been expecting a bill for three hundred thirty-six dollars and ninety cents. That’s the difference between what she’d been quoted and the thousand dollars she’d paid in advance. But the bill she got wasn’t what she expected.

Ted Lavender: it turned out to be a whopper of a bill. We ended up with an itemized bill that showed every line item for every charge that totaled this

$303,000

And then at the bottom was, you know, subtracting the thousand she paid, subtracting the money the insurance paid, leaving a balance of 229,000 and change

Dan: Of course, Lisa French did not have 229 thousand dollars, or anything like it.

Ted Lavender: Eventually she got a visit from the sheriff who served her with a lawsuit and she was sued for that $229,000.

Dan: And that’s where Ted Lavender entered the scene.

The jury trial in 2018 took six days. As Ted Lavender says, it wasn’t exactly a splashy murder trial, in terms of drama.

Ted Lavender: this was a six day trial involving hospital billing. So, you know, there was no murder weapon. There was no aha, big, gotcha moment that was really exciting.

Dan: But Ted Lavender did his best. Like one time, when he got a hospital executive on the witness stand.

To stabilize Lisa French’s spine, surgeons had implanted 13 pieces of metal into her body. So Ted Lavender had the hospital executive walk the jury through the price for each of those bits of metal. Or actually, the prices..

Ted Lavender: And I first showed him the itemized bill and asked him to identify what they charged for these 13 pieces of hardware .

I had given him sort of an oversized calculator that was sitting there in front of him on the witness stand, admittedly, for some dramatic effect

And through adding these up on the itemized bill, he arrived at the number which was $197,000.

Dan: A hundred and ninety-seven thousand dollars. So that’s about two-thirds of the three hundred and three thousand dollars the hospital is trying to charge Lisa French.

And then the next thing I did was I handed in the 13 invoices that we had received from the hospital,

Dan: That is, Ted handed the guy the invoices the hospital had received — and paid — when it bought those bits of metal..

Ted Lavender: and I asked him to add up and tell this jury what did the hospital pay for these 13 pieces of hardware.

He’s adding, and he’s adding and he’s punching in numbers, and he’s turning pages and he’s adding, and he’s adding with each addition, with each plus the jury seemed to ease a little closer up to the front of their chair, and ultimately he arrived at the total, which was $31,000 and change.

Dan: So the hospital’s charging like six and a half times what they paid. And that’s two thirds of this 300 thousand dollar bill.

Ted Lavender: It just, you know, the jury seemingly did not like that.

Dan: So that was a good moment for Lisa French’s side. I mean getting the jury mad at the other side, that’s a win.

And the big calculator wasn’t Ted Lavender’s only visual: He also had a giant post-it note, where he wrote down, in magic marker, all the different prices the hospital accepted for the surgery, depending on who was paying.

Ted Lavender: and we got these numbers from the hospital, they would’ve accepted $146,000 from private insurance.

Dan: That’s less than half of what they were trying to charge Lisa French. And they accepted less than that — a LOT less — from government-funded insurance, like Medicare, Medicaid, or Tricare, which covers folks in the military.

Ted Lavender: The average of what they would’ve accepted for these. Procedures that Ms. French had were $63,199. Again, Ms. French and her insurance company combined paid almost $75,000.

Dan: You can hear that post-it rustling around. It was a good prop, he’s held onto it. So, he’d shown the jury that the hospital charged a HUGE markup, and that what they were suing Lisa French for was way, way more than they charged anybody else.

On the hospital’s side, they were like, Yeah, but this is our actual sticker price. And Lisa French signed a piece of paper that said she would pay “all charges of the hospital.”

So the hospital was like, yep, and these are our charges. That 303 thousand dollars, it comes from a list we keep. It’s called the chargemaster. That’s what Lisa French was signing up for.

And this became something the jury had to decide:

When Lisa French signed a piece of paper saying she’d pay “all charges of the hospital” — was she specifically agreeing to pay what was on the chargemaster?

And here’s one thing that might’ve made jurors a little skeptical on that score: The hospital never showed that chargemaster list to Lisa French. Not before her surgery, not after it. They said it was a trade secret.

Ted Lavender: they went all the way through trial. Never producing it though. We, we, we asked at the very beginning, once the lawsuit was filed, , basically you get to ask questions. Give me this information, give me information that supports your case or helps my case.

And we ask specifically for the charge master and they refuse to produce it on the basis that it was confidential and proprietary.

Dan: By withholding that list, the hospital may have helped Ted Lavender make his argument: How could Lisa French have known what she was signing up for, if she couldn’t see the prices?

Ted Lavender: if we can’t get it through our subpoena power, how in the world would Lisa Friendship been able to use it by, had she asked?

And admittedly she didn’t ask for it, but if she had, surely they wouldn’t have given it to her either.

Dan: In the end, the jury agreed: Lisa French had not specifically agreed to pay the hospital’s chargemaster prices.

And the only other alternative was: She agreed to pay something reasonable.

The jury decided she owed the hospital seven hundred seventy six dollars and 74 cents

Basically, that’s the three hundred and some left over from the original estimate, plus some extra — because she wound up staying in the hospital one night more than expected: She owed a fee for late check-out.

Of course the hospital did not take that lying down. They appealed the outcome– and won! Ted Lavender appealed that decision, which is how the case ended up in front of the Colorado Supreme Court.

We’ve actually got tape of those proceedings. They’re kinda juicy. Plus the outcome, and why it matters for the rest of us. That’s right after this.

This episode of An Arm and a Leg is produced in partnership with KFF Health News–formerly known as Kaiser Health News.

They’re a national newsroom producing in-depth journalism about health care in America. We’ll have more information about KFF Health News at the end of this episode.

OK, so Lisa French’s case was headed to the Colorado Supreme Court.

And here’s the big issue. Remember how the jury found that Lisa French hadn’t actually agreed to pay the hospital’s chargemaster price, the three hundred and three thousand dollars?

The hospital argued: The jury never should’ve been asked to consider that question.

The law — legal precedent — makes it open and shut: The appeals court had agreed. And it had cited other cases from courts around the country.

So when the hospital’s lawyer, Mike McConnell, got up to address the Supreme Court, he led with those citations.

Mike McConnell: All of the questions that you have raised have been addressed in more than a dozen cases around the country. carefully and thoroughly.

Justice Richard L. Gabriel: Well, let me push back on you. Good morning to you, Mr. McConnell.

Mike McConnell: Good morning.

Dan: This is Justice Richard L Gabriel, stepping right in. He notes that these dozen other decisions all rest on one original case, from 2008, where a court had said: We can’t intervene in health care pricing. Courts shouldn’t try. Health care is too complicated.

Justice Gabriel wasn’t convinced.

Justice Richard L. Gabriel: I guess the question I have is why, you know? I, you know, we may not be the smartest people in the world, but this is a contract and why should the hospital industry— different than any other industry on the planet —have different rules for contract principles?

Dan: The hospital lawyer argued that hospitals couldn’t predict everything that would happen in a patient’s care. In fact, the hospital can’t even control it: Only physicians can decide what treatment to order.

Mike McConnell: You can, uh, I guess imagine that hospitals ought to be able to predict in advance what a particular physician is going to order for a particular patient. Um, and, uh, perhaps, you know, obviously you feel that is the way it ought to be. It is not the way it is, but now

Justice Melissa Hart: Mr. Mr. McConnell, I’m sorry, to interrupt…

Dan: Here’s justice Melissa Hart breaking in

Justice Melissa Hart: …the hospital did provide an estimate in this case. They did calculate what they thought this was going to cost and tell her that. So it is, it seems false to me that they can’t do it. Of course, they can’t predict with absolute certainty. In this case, she had the extra night stay in the hospital and she paid for that. But they can predict in a case like this, and they do.

Dan: The justices didn’t seem super-persuaded by McConnell’s response to that. And that left one more big question in front of the justices.

When Lisa French signed a document promising to pay “all charges,” was she definitely agreeing to pay three hundred and three thousand dollars? Or 229 after insurance.

The appeals court found that the chargemaster rate — the 303 thousand — had been “incorporated by reference” to the document she’d signed, officially called the “hospital services agreement.”

The supreme court wasn’t convinced. Here’s Justice Richard Gabriel again.

Justice Richard L. Gabriel: There’s no reference to the charge master on the face of the hospital services agreement.

How could she have assented to something she never even knew existed?

Dan: And here’s how the hospital’s lawyer responded.

Mike McConnell: When she read the provision, all charges not otherwise paid by insurance. She understood that the hospital charges would, she was responsible for paying the hospital charges that her insurance company did it,

Justice Richard L. Gabriel: Whatever it was. They could have charged her a billion dollars and she’s your position to be she’s bound because she agreed. All charges means all charges.

Dan: Huh! There wasn’t a real comeback to that.

The Supreme Court ruled against the hospital, unanimously. Specifically, they ruled that the chargemaster– the 303 thousand dollars– had not been “incorporated by reference” to the piece of paper Lisa French had signed.

She didn’t know those chargemaster list prices even existed. How could she agree to pay them?

So that meant, the court ruled that, quote, “the hospital services agreements left the price term open.”

Which is language that may ring a bell, if you’ve been listening to this show. It’s a legal principle — a bedrock of contract law:

How the law treats an open-price contract — a contract that doesn’t specify a price term.

Here’s a refresher on that principle from Ted Lavender.

Ted Lavender: if you go to McDonald’s and order a, a quarter pounder with cheese and you know, value meal number three, they tell you the price and that is the price that you have to pay. And then they give you your meal.

You enter that contract with an actual price term

Dan: But you can also enter an open-price contract — a contract without a price term.

Ted Lavender: if you have a contract without a price term, without a specific price in it, then the law infer into that contract a reasonable price.

Dan: In other words, a contract with the price term OPEN is not a blank check. I don’t have to pay whatever number the other side makes up.

And that’s what the Colorado Supreme Court found here.

They ruled that, quote, “principles of contract law can certainly be applied to hospital-patient contracts.” They say, a court may have ruled otherwise in 2008, and other courts may have cited that opinion. We disagree.

The Colorado Supreme Court is saying, even in health care, when no price is specified– when the price term is open– you have the right to a reasonable price.

Yes!

And that’s why Lisa French’s case is so interesting to us, here on this show.

Because we’ve talked here about using this legal principle to fight back against outrageous bills.

We’ve heard from one guy, Jeffrey Fox, who actually took a hospital to small claims court to enforce his right to a reasonable price. And won.

We’ve heard from a listener who tried and failed, but said, more of us should try this.

And this Colorado decision seems like good news for anybody interested in doing something like that.

But honestly, it also raises a few concerns that I had not known about before. First:

Well, there ARE all those other cases out there, in other states, that follow the 2008 case, the one that says health care is too complicated for courts to get into.

And yeah, here’s Colorado saying, “No it isn’t.”

But courts in other states aren’t bound by Colorado’s decision. Hm. And second: there’s also something the Colorado court DIDN’T decide:

What if the paper Lisa French signed had specified, “I agree to pay the hospital’s CHARGEMASTER rates?” Could she be required to pay them then? Even if they were a billion dollars?

In their decision, The Colorado court wrote that the chargemaster rates are “increasingly arbitrary” and “inflated” and “have lost any direct connection to hospitals actual cost.”

So Ted Lavender thinks they might’ve said, No, we can’t be held to a billion dollars, just by adding the word “chargemaster.”

Ted Lavender: I think they would’ve answered that. No, but they did not come right out and actually answer that.

Dan: Because they didn’t HAVE to answer that question.

Ted Lavender: Courts routinely, in fact, it’s almost an objective of appeals courts. They answer as few a number of questions as possible to get to an answer. ,

Dan: So the Colorado court simpley ruled that in Lisa French’s case, the chargemaster rates weren’t “incorporated by reference” into papers she signed.

Those papers didn’t didn’t mention the chargemaster at all– and the hospital kept that chargemaster as a trade secret. Open, shut.

But… hospitals aren’t supposed to keep those rates secret anymore. For the last couple of years, thanks to an executive order from the Trump administration, federal rules have required them to post their chargemaster to the internet.

And so I had all that in mind when I heard from a listener in Atlanta.

Cindi Gatton: my name is Cindy Gatton and I’ve been an independent patient advocate for 11 years now.

Dan: Cindi’s job is helping people deal with medical bills, but she had actually written to me about her experience as a patient.

Before a medical appointment, she got the usual forms online, including one for “Patient Financial Agreement and Responsibilities”

Cindi Gatton: so I thought, you know what? I’m gonna print it and just see exactly what it says. And I’m reading through the thing it says, patient understands and agrees that he, she will be charge. The Piedmont Healthcare Standard charge master rates for all services not covered by a payer or that are self-pay.

I’ve never seen that before, and it shocked me that there was a reference to charge master rates in the financial disclosure.

Dan: And Cindi has been dealing with medical bills full-time for a decade. She’s seen a lot. So when she says it’s new, and that it’s shocking, that seems worth noting.

Cindi Gatton: it just feels wrong to me. It feels really wrong because it, it reminds me of, you know, you, you go to a website and they give you their terms and conditions. Nobody reads those. I don’t read them. You click yes so that you can move on with what it is you wanna do, which is to get care, to be seen by the doctor to, you know, have your procedure.

And I don’t know this, this feels, um, it feels manipulative to me

Dan: Yeah, and to me, it feels ominous. Like lawyers who work for hospitals have been paying attention to the Lisa French decision and thinking:

There’s a wedge here maybe we could exploit. Like, if we get you to sign a document that says “chargemaster” on it, we’re getting you to sign away your right to a reasonable price. After all, the court in Colorado didn’t come out and say that wouldn’t be kosher.

So, where I’m landing at the end of this story is: I’ve got a couple big homework assignments:

First, if I’m interested in seeing how we can use our legal rights to fight back against outrageous, unreasonable bills — and I am —

I need to learn more about which states recognize our rights to a reasonable price in health care, and which ones … maybe don’t. I’m on it, and if you’ve got any tips, please bring them.

That’s the first assignment, and for the second, I’d love your help: How many hospitals are using this “chargemaster” language these days in those financial responsbility documents they ask us to sign?

Do me a favor: See if you can get a copy of that document from any hospital system or doctor group where you get seen. And send me a copy of it?

Redact anything you need to. And also know: we’re not aiming to share this with anybody outside our reporting team.

Here’s what happened when I tried this.

A hospital where I get seen uses a portal called MyChart– a lot of hospitals use it. I just logged on to MyChart there, and I did a little digging around. I found a link to something called “My Documents.” And I found a form there called Universal Consent.”

It has stuff about financial responsibility.

It doesn’t mention chargemaster rates. But it’s a year old. It also says it’s expired.

And here’s an idea I got from Cindi, which I’m gonna try– and which seems worth passing around.

When Cindi found that chargemaster language in the document from her Hospital, here’s what she did. She printed it out and changed it:

Cindi Gatton: what I did is instead of the standard charge master rates, I drew a line through it and I wrote in two x Medicare rates.

Dan: In other words, instead of saying “I’ll pay the chargemaster rates,” it says, “I’ll pay two times the Medicare rate.”

We’ve heard about this strategy before, from former ProPublica reporter Marshall Allen, who wrote about it in his book, “Never Pay the First Bill.”

Here’s the rationale. Medicare pays less than most commercial insurance; hospitals say that at least sometimes they lose money on Medicare. Doubling it seems … generous enough. But it also sets a limit.

So that’s what Cindi wrote on her printout.

Cindi Gatton: I have been taking it with me when I go to be seen that if they ask me for the document that I can say, you know, here it is.

Dan: So far, she says, nobody’s asked for it.

And, I don’t think anybody will be confused, but just to make sure, I’ll say: This isn’t legal advice. I’m not a lawyer. Cindi’s not a lawyer.

She’s just a person going to the doctor, doing her best not to leave too many openings where she could get really screwed. And I’m gonna try following her example.

And I’ve got another request for you: If you try this trick of printing the thing out, exxing out the chargemaster language and writing 2 x medicare rates– LET ME KNOW WHAT HAPPENS, OK?

The place to do all this is on our website at arm and a leg show dot com, slash contact. That’s arm and a leg show dot com, slash, contact.

You are this show’s secret weapon. You’re our eyes and ears. Cindi Gatton’s a listener who got in touch.

How did I first learn about Lisa French’s case? Email from a listener. [Thank you, Terry N, for that note last year! Took us a minute, but we got to this.]

Thank you for listening. You absolutely rule. I’ll catch you soon.

Till then, take care of yourself.

This episode of An Arm and a Leg was produced by me, Dan Weissmann, with help from Emily Pisacreta, and edited by Afi Yellow-Duke.

Daisy Rosario is our consulting managing producer. Adam Raymonda is our audio wizard. Our music is by Dave Winer and Blue Dot Sessions.

Gabrielle Healy is our managing editor for audience. She edits the First Aid Kit Newsletter.

Bea Bosco is our consulting director of operations. Sarah Ballema is our operations manager.

An Arm and a Leg is produced in partnership with KFF Health News–formerly known as Kaiser Health News.

That’s a national newsroom producing in-depth journalism about health care in America, and a core program at KFF — an independent source of health policy research, polling, and journalism.

And yes, you did hear the name Kaiser in there, and no: KFF isn’t affiliated with the health care giant Kaiser Permanente. You can learn more about KFF Health News at arm and a leg show dot com, slash KFF.

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The Host

Julie Rovner
KFF Health News

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Julie Rovner is chief Washington correspondent and host of KFF Health News’ weekly health policy news podcast, “What the Health?” A noted expert on health policy issues, Julie is the author of the critically praised reference book “Health Care Politics and Policy A to Z,” now in its third edition.

The abortion pill mifepristone is now ground zero in the abortion debate. Late Wednesday night, the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals said the drug should remain on the market but under restrictions on distribution that were in effect before 2016, which ban prescribing by mail or by telemedicine. The restrictions would make it even more difficult for patients in states where abortion is illegal or widely unavailable.

The decision comes in response to a ruling last week out of Texas, where a federal judge, as was widely expected, found that the FDA should not have approved the drug more than 22 years ago and ordered it, effectively, unapproved.

Complicating matters further still, in a separate case filed by 18 attorneys general in states where abortion is largely legal, last week a federal district judge in Washington state ordered the FDA not to reinstate any of the old restrictions.

This week’s panelists are Julie Rovner of KFF Health News, Victoria Knight of Axios, Shefali Luthra of The 19th, and Sarah Karlin-Smith of the Pink Sheet.

Panelists

Sarah Karlin-Smith
Pink Sheet

@SarahKarlin

Read Sarah's stories

Victoria Knight
Axios

@victoriaregisk

Read Victoria's stories

Shefali Luthra
The 19th

@Shefalil

Read Shefali's stories

Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:

• A late-night decision by the appeals court preserves access to mifepristone while the legal battle continues. But it also resurrects outdated limitations on the drug, meaning mifepristone can be used only up to seven weeks into a pregnancy, among other restrictions.
• While it is expected that the U.S. Supreme Court will ultimately decide the drug’s fate, some providers and state officials are rushing to stockpile it. Cutting off access to the abortion pill puts extra pressure on clinics in states where abortion remains legal, which are also serving women from so-called prohibition states and could see an influx of patients as mifepristone becomes difficult — or impossible — to get.
• Republicans largely have remained quiet about the ruling overturning mifepristone’s FDA approval. While many in the party support banning the drug, they likely recognize the political risks of broadcasting that stance. Meanwhile, the Biden administration moved to strengthen privacy protections for patients and providers related to abortion, offering some reassurance to those who fear they could be prosecuted under their home state laws for seeking abortions elsewhere.
• As Southern states have whittled away at abortion access, Florida, with its 15-week abortion ban, had emerged as a hub for patients across the region. This week the state moved to restrict the procedure to six weeks, a change that could send many patients scrambling north to states like Virginia and New York for care. And in Idaho, a new law makes “abortion trafficking” — or transporting a minor to have an abortion without parental consent — a crime.
• Congress is exploring new drug pricing measures, particularly aimed at increasing transparency around pharmacy benefit managers and capping insulin costs. Lawmakers are also watching the approach of the debt ceiling threshold; in the mix of budgetary pressure valves are Medicaid and, potentially, work requirements to receive Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program benefits.
• Congress continues to show little appetite for addressing a different, intensifying public health crisis: gun violence. A new poll from KFF shows startlingly high numbers of Americans — especially people of color — have directly experienced gun violence and live with that threat every day.

Plus, for “extra credit,” the panelists suggest health policy stories they read this week they think you should read, too:

Julie Rovner: The Washington Post’s “To Comply With a New Sesame Allergy Law, Some Businesses Add — Sesame,” by Karen Weese.

Shefali Luthra: KFF Health News’ “For Uninsured People With Cancer, Securing Care Can Be Like Spinning a Roulette Wheel,” by Charlotte Huff.

Victoria Knight: The Washington Post’s “Research With Exotic Viruses Risks a Deadly Outbreak, Scientists Warn,” by David Willman and Joby Warrick.

Sarah Karlin-Smith: NBC News’ “Conspiracy Theorists Made Tiffany Dover Into an Anti-Vaccine Icon. She’s Finally Ready to Talk About It,” by Brandy Zadrozny.

Click to open the transcript

Transcript: The Confusing Fate of the Abortion Pill

KFF Health News’ ‘What the Health?’Episode Title: The Confusing Fate of the Abortion PillEpisode Number: 293Published: April 13, 2023

[Editor’s note: This transcript, generated using transcription software, has been edited for style and clarity.]

Julie Rovner: Hello and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Julie Rovner, chief Washington correspondent at KFF Health News. And I’m joined by some of the best and smartest health reporters in Washington. We are taping this week on Thursday, April 13, at 10 a.m. As always, news happens fast —really fast this week — and things might have changed by the time you hear this. So here we go. We are joined today by video conference by Victoria Knight of Axios.

Victoria Knight: Good morning.

Rovner: Sarah Karlin-Smith of the Pink Sheet.

Sarah Karlin-Smith: Hi, Julie.

Rovner: And Shefali Luthra of The 19th.

Shefali Luthra: Hello.

Rovner: Well, no interview this week, but spring is busting out all over with health news, so we will get right to it. We will begin in Texas with that court case that we’ve been saying for the last few weeks we hadn’t gotten a decision in. Well, we got a decision last Friday night around dinnertime and then very early this morning — that’s Thursday — we got an appeals court decision, too. But let’s take them one at a time. Last Friday night, in an opinion that was shocking but not surprising, as many people put it, Trump-appointed federal District Judge Matthew Kacsmaryk effectively rolled back the Food and Drug Administration’s 22-plus-year-old approval of mifepristone; that’s the first of two pills used for medication abortion early in pregnancy. Literally within the hour, federal District Judge Thomas Rice in Spokane, Washington, ruled in a separate case — brought by a group of about a dozen and a half state attorneys general — basically the opposite, ordering the FDA not to alter the current availability of the drug. Judge Kacsmaryk in Texas very kindly stayed his stay until this Friday to allow the Biden administration to appeal to the also very conservative 5th Circuit Court of Appeals. And in the wee hours of today, Thursday, an appeals court panel ruled that, while this lawsuit proceeds, mifepristone can continue to be sold, but only under the extremely onerous restrictions that were in effect until 2016. Shefali, where does that leave us? It’s kind of a mess, isn’t it?

Luthra: It is a huge mess, and the implications will be really significant. In particular, the 2016 restrictions on mifepristone don’t allow telemedicine. You have to go in person to a doctor to get the medication, and you can only use it up to seven weeks of pregnancy, when all of the evidence we have, including from the World Health Organization, says 10 weeks, sometimes maybe even 11. And I mean, we know realistically that people are taking mifepristone far later in pregnancy now because they can’t access legal abortion. And what this is going to do if it takes effect is it’s going to put a real strain on abortion clinics in states that have become destinations, right? The ones that are seeing so many out-of-state patients that largely do medication abortions because it’s easier, it’s faster, it pays a little bit better — all of these reasons that you do it —and that have really come to rely on telemedicine: Either they will have to take much longer to do this process and only do it for a handful of the patients they’re seeing, or they’ll switch to what we’ve talked about before, the misoprostol-only regimen, which is more painful, which is less effective. Still very good at terminating a pregnancy, but has a higher failure rate. And what clinics have told me is very often they expect that patients, when they hear that these are their options, will opt for a procedural abortion instead because that they know will absolutely work and they have to go home. They don’t worry about coming back to the clinic and worrying that they need an abortion again.

Karlin-Smith: I just want to put in the caveat that, you know, off-label use, which is where doctors prescribe a drug for use not approved for FDA, is something they do have sort of the discretion to do in practice of medicine once the product’s available. So the rollback is significant, but practically a lot of doctors will have the flexibility to still treat patients up to the longer timeframe. And people have pointed out this morning that, actually, many doctors were doing that prior to FDA formally expanding the approval.

Luthra: And to your point, many states have been stocking up on mifepristone in particular, and so have many abortion clinics, and they plan to use it as long as they can. The real challenge, I think, will be if there are supply issues at some point or other sorts of decisions from the Supreme Court, etc., or enforcement actions that essentially don’t allow telemedicine anymore.

Rovner: What it looks like the 5th Circuit has done is made it much harder for people in states where there are abortion bans to go to other states or to not go to another state but get the abortion pill, because they’ve banned it by mail; they’ve basically stopped in its tracks what we’ve been talking about for weeks — the ability of pharmacies to start to distribute it — because until 2016 you had to go — the doctor had to physically hand you the pill, which is what we are back to, and there have to be three visits in order to complete a medication abortion. These were all sort of the pre-2016 requirements. And the big question, though, is in Washington state, the requirement was that the FDA not change any of the relaxed restrictions. And now the 5th Circuit has said, yes, you will. So this still is on a fast track to the Supreme Court, right?

Luthra: It feels very like this is going to be decided by the Supreme Court. I mean, I wouldn’t be surprised if we hear about an appeal today. I wouldn’t be surprised if we hear about it tomorrow. It feels like really this could have changed between us taping and the podcast releasing.

Rovner: I think that’s entirely possible. So one of the things we thought Judge Kacsmaryk might do was order the FDA to basically restart its approval process for mifepristone, since his reasoning for rescinding essentially the drug’s approval is that the FDA violated its own procedures. Ironically, this decision came in a week when the FDA did withdraw the approval of a drug, a medication to prevent preterm birth called Makena. Sarah, what’s this drug and why is the FDA pulling it off the market? And this is how it’s supposed to work, right?

Karlin-Smith: Yes — supposed to work maybe is a stretch, depending on how some people felt about Makena; they felt it took way too long for FDA to withdraw it. So two sides of a coin, I suppose. But after a very long process, FDA finally pulled a drug that is given to women with the idea that it might help them deliver later, once their baby was full term, and prevent complications that come from having a premature birth. Unfortunately, over the years, as more clinical research was done on the drug, it appeared that it was not actually doing that. And as like all drugs, there are some side effects. And FDA basically ended up deciding, you know, absent any benefit, all you have is risk and this drug should not be pulled off the market. So it was finally pulled off the market after quite a lengthy process this week, right? It was still this week, or was it — no, it was last week.

Rovner: I think it was last week.

Karlin-Smith: Time. Time —

Rovner: Time is a very flat circle right now.

Karlin-Smith: Yeah, and so unfortunately it was really the only approved product that could possibly prevent preterm birth. And FDA really tried to recognize that and understand that people would be frustrated without options. But they tried to really emphasize the point that having an ineffective option is not the answer to that problem. The answer there is sort of push for more research on other products or even on this product to figure out if there’s a population of women it might benefit.

Rovner: So I wanted to mention that, because obviously the mifepristone ruling has the impact to affect much, much more than just abortion drugs. Individual drug companies are, to use the vernacular, freaking out about the idea that they could spend millions of dollars to shepherd a drug through clinical trials and the FDA approval process, only to see it banned because some small group of people object to it for some non-medical reason. Sarah, you cover the FDA. Is this freakout warranted right now?

Karlin-Smith: I do think most people think it is. And, you know, even in my preliminary look at what the 5th Circuit did this morning, I think that freakout is still going to continue because they seem to still give like this wide breadth that would allow many people to have the ability to challenge FDA approval decisions for any drug and then let judges weigh in who may not have the expertise and based on the science and all that other stuff that FDA has. So I think as this case has proceeded there’s still this underlying threat to the FDA’s authority and how they make decisions. Again, in the Texas case, he wasn’t trying to push it back to FDA and say, “OK, FDA, you go review this drug and decide again whether it needs to do it,” and then, you know, set them up for a Makena-like process where they would have to go through it. You know, they were trying to fast-track and overrule FDA’s authority. And if you read some of the details of the brief, you can really understand why it freaks out pharma and the FDA so much, because you can just tell how little the judge gets about how drugs are approved, the science, the regulatory process, and so forth.

Rovner: And basically that you have judges who are making medical and scientific decisions for which they are observably not qualified.

Karlin-Smith: Right, and I mean if nothing else industries likes stability, they like predictability, so there’s just this element of incredible unpredictability when you would have all these judges and potential legal cases throughout the country that would make it hard for them to deal with — and figuring out how to defend their products.

Rovner: So the FDA is obviously in an impossible situation here. They cannot satisfy both the Washington decision and the Court of Appeals decision because one says you can’t roll it back and one says you have to roll it back. Do we have any idea what the FDA is going to do here?

Luthra: I don’t know that we do. I mean, the Biden administration has said that they will follow the court orders, but the court orders are in conflict. So it seems like there should be some more clarity, perhaps, that we get. We, as of taping, haven’t gotten any statement from the president or the vice president or HHS, so we’ll keep an eye out and see if they have even just words of wisdom to offer about what this means or how they feel about the decision. But at this point, a lot is still quite confusing.

Rovner: So the Biden administration did take other action on abortion this week, in some separate steps. It announced Wednesday a series of new privacy protections for women and providers seeking or giving reproductive health care. How big a deal are these new rules, which sort of expand the HIPAA privacy rules? And why did it take them almost a year to do this? Hadn’t they been talking about this like right after the Dobbs ruling?

Luthra: They had been talking about this for a while. And what they said was that they believed that the guidance they had given to providers was sufficient to protect patient privacy. That has clearly not been the case, because we have continued to hear from people seeking abortions and from the health care providers giving them that they do not feel safe, right? They constantly have this fear that if I put something in someone’s medical record about an abortion, someone else might see it and it could get reported. So this should make that very clear beyond the guidance that was given out last summer — should make very clear that if you get an abortion, your doctor does not have to and should not tell any law enforcement about what happened. I think this has the potential to be really significant because one thing that we hear constantly from the people who are traveling out of state is they are terrified that they are breaking the law and that someone is going to find them, even though —

Rovner: That they’re breaking the law of their home state.

Luthra: Mm-hmm. Even though, of course, the home state laws do not criminalize the people who are seeking abortion.

Rovner: Yes. Well, I want to turn to the politics before we leave all of this. Democrats at all level of government were quick to decry this decision as wrong, anti-democratic, small d, and various other things. Republicans were a lot slower to react. How big a problem is abortion becoming for the Republican Party? They seem to be getting even more split on, “Gee, we thought that maybe overturning Roe was what we wanted and we were going to leave it at that.” And apparently anti-abortion activists are not leaving it at that.

Luthra: I mean, I think a great example of how Republicans are trying to navigate this problem is Congresswoman Nancy Mace, who, we may all recall, the day that Roe was overturned, put out a statement, like so many Republicans, saying that this was a great decision, very good for the country, the right step forward — and has since then tried very deliberately to walk away from that and to recalibrate her image on abortion and was one of the ones to come out this week and denounce the opinion from the District Court in Texas. Republicans who are willing to praise the decision in particular to take medication abortion off the market or to further restrict it, which is so unpopular, are finding themselves in a really tough spot. This is a winning issue for them and all they can really hope, and what we saw in the midterms, is to not talk about and to try and change the subject to something else.

Knight: I think important to note also that there were a good number of Republicans in Congress — think it was 69 — that signed on to an amicus brief both supporting the original lawsuit, this Texas lawsuit, and then also this decision when it came out.

Rovner: Right. This is an amicus brief to the Court of Appeals urging them to uphold the original decision.

Knight: Yeah. There were two amicus briefs , and a good number of congressional Republicans. — yeah, first for the original court case and then for the Appeals. But it was very noticeable that most of the Republican offices did not issue any kind of statement when this decision came out last week. So they’re fine supporting, putting documentation forward, supporting it, but they’re not broadcasting it, if that makes sense. And so I think that was very telling. It really was only Sen. Cindy Hyde-Smith, who is the Senate lead of the Pro-Life Caucus, that put something out. But it was very quiet among the rest of the Republicans, yeah.

Rovner: I noticed with that amicus brief, it’s like, OK, they’re going to say on the down-low to the anti-abortion activists, “We’re with you, but we really don’t want to publicize this because it’s not terribly popular with a lot of people.”

Luthra: To build on that, one example of someone who is really trying to walk that line and seems like is maybe facing challenges is Ron DeSantis, right? The person who did this compromise ban last year, the 15-week abortion ban, and now has clearly realized that if you want to be a nationally prominent Republican with support from the very powerful anti-abortion movement, you can’t do that; you need to be more overt in your disapproval of abortion and willingness to restrict access. But at the same time —

Rovner: Well, you’re anticipating my next question, which is that there is other abortion news this week. And in Florida, the legislature seems like it’s on the cusp of approving a six-week abortion ban to supplant the 15-week abortion ban it passed last year. And the aforementioned governor DeSantis says he will sign that if it comes to him. But Shefali, you’ve written about this. This could impact a lot more than just the people of Florida, right?

Luthra: I think it’s really important to note that Florida is the third-biggest state in the country and currently the biggest state in the eastern south part of the country where abortion is legal, even if it is only available up to 15 weeks. I have been to the clinics in Florida. It is stunning how crowded they are. There are people coming from all over the South. People are working until midnight to try and see every patient they can. And without Florida, the options are North Carolina and South Carolina. South Carolina clinics, there are very few of them, and they don’t go very far, not because of current state laws, but just because of the providers in the state. North Carolina is also looking likely to have some kind of abortion ban passed this year and again has way fewer clinics than Florida. If Florida is banning abortion after six weeks, a very, very large chunk of the country is going to be almost entirely displaced. The math just doesn’t really work. And we don’t know where people will be able to get abortions other than traveling, frankly, to Virginia, to D.C., to New York, and to all the places that so far, data shows, haven’t been as affected by out-of-state travelers.

Rovner: And of course, with the Court of Appeals decision basically saying that you can’t mail the abortion pills and that you can’t do it by telemedicine, I mean — which is not to say that people aren’t going to continue to get them by mail. It’s just that it won’t be FDA-sanctioned the way it was going to be. So Idaho is also making abortion news. This this feels like an afterthought, even though last week it seemed like a big deal. They have enacted a bill there creating the crime of abortion trafficking, which is the act of any adult transporting a minor for an abortion without her parent’s consent. Now, in the late 1990s and the early aughts, Republicans in the U.S. Congress tried unsuccessfully to pass something called the Child Custody Protection Act, which would have criminalized taking a minor across state lines for an abortion. But Idaho can’t do that. Only the federal government can regulate interstate travel. So this Idaho law just applies to the in-state portion of the trip. But it could still be a big deterrent, right? Unless you live right on the border. If you’re trying to take somebody out of state, you’re going to have to do part of it in state.

Luthra: I mean, of course. And I mean, Julie, I wanted to ask you about this because this is not actually a new kind of restriction. There are a bunch of states that have passed these, quote-unquote, “child trafficking laws” that restrict minors traveling out of state for abortion. Idaho is the first one to do it post-Dobbs. But for some reason, the anti-abortion movement has always had far more success in restricting access to minors. I think we’re all paying more attention now because we realize that this could in fact be the first step toward that thing that Justice Kavanaugh said would not happen, right? The larger-scale restriction of travel out of state for abortions.

Rovner: Yes. Restricting abortion for minors has been sort of the soft spot for the anti-abortion movement, really from the very beginning, because even people who consider themselves in favor of abortion rights, as we’ve seen this year with books — you know, parents are really like, “We want to be in charge of our daughters, and if my daughter needs my permission to get her ears pierced, she should need my permission to get an abortion or, God forbid, travel out of state or get contraception.” This is actually — it’s the minor issue that’s the reason that the Title X, the Family Planning Program, has not been reauthorized by Congress since 1984, which was before I started covering it. Oh, it’s my favorite piece of reproductive health trivia, because every time Congress tried to do it they got hung up over this question of should minors be able to get contraception without their parents’ approval. It is a continuing thing, but I think Idaho probably got more attention because they call this “abortion trafficking,” so we have a new law. All right. Well, there actually is other news this week that does not have to do with abortion. Congress next week will return from its two-week Easter/Passover break. And apparently at the top of the agenda in the Senate is a bill focusing on drug prices and particularly on pharmacy benefit managers. Even the Republican-led House is looking at PBM legislation. Sarah, remind us, what are PBMs and why are they so very unpopular among both Democrats and Republicans?

Karlin-Smith: So PBMs are companies contracted by your health insurance company or now, at this point, often owned by your health insurance company, that administer your pharmacy benefits, and they create the formularies that decide what drugs are covered and how much you are going to pay for them. And then they negotiate deals with pharmaceutical companies to try and lower the prices of drugs. And they also have to work with the pharmacies. So they’re called middlemen, often in a not very nice way. The drug industry has definitely tried to paint them as the key reason prices are too high, saying they give them discounts but they’re not passing them on to patients. It’s a bit more complicated than that. PBMs essentially say they do pass on that money to patients in the U.S. system but it ends up lowering everybody’s premiums, so not necessarily the person who’s paying for the high-cost drug. Of course, it’s a lot more complicated, because this is an industry, I think, surrounded by a lack of transparency. So it’s been hard for people, I think, to verify who’s getting that money and is it all really going to patients? And then, like I mentioned, this consolidation with health insurance companies, with parts of the pharmacy system as well, has started to raise a lot of kind of antitrust concerns and, again, that they may not be working in patients’ best interests.

Rovner: And a lot of this legislation is about transparency, right? It’s about sort of opening the black box of how PBMs set drug prices and negotiate with drug companies and pass these things along to insurers. I see you nodding, Victoria.

Knight: Yeah, and there’s a lot of different bills floating out there. There’s some that have passed out of committee in previous Congress that passed out of committee again, most notably a Senate Commerce bill — Chuck Grassley and Maria Cantwell — and that just passed out of committee, and that would implement some transparency measures, also ban the practice of spread pricing. There is some talk that Schumer may put a health package on the floor sometime soon, and so PBMs are going to potentially be a big part of that. There’s also supposed to be a markup sometime this month out of the Health, Education, Labor, Pensions Committee, where they also are talking about PBMs. So it’s interesting that there is a real movement on both sides of the aisle, also in the House, on PBMs. So they want to put some blame on high drug prices on someone. And right now it seems to be PBMs.

Rovner: And it looks like they’re going to go after insulin again, too, right? In the bill that passed last year they managed to cap insulin costs at $35 a month, but only for people on Medicare. So I guess this is the attempt to come back and require lower insulin prices for others. We will point out that many of the companies have voluntarily lowered some insulin prices, but looks like Congress not done with this yet, right?

Knight: No, it’s not done with it yet. Bernie Sanders is apparently going to haul some insulin execs in to have to testify, even though some of them have committed to lowering prices. And it’s also mentioned in the potential Schumer package, that $35 cap for everyone is supposed to be a part of it. And there’s also a lot of insulin $35-cap bills floating around. There is some Republican support in the Senate for that. There were some Republicans last year that voted for that. But I think the House will be the bigger issue, because there doesn’t seem to be as much Republican support in the House for a cap that extends to everyone.

Rovner: Yeah, but I mean, when we said sort of back in January that there might be some things that they could do on a bipartisan basis, it sounds like we’re starting to see some of them — now that it’s spring — blooming. So anything else that you are looking for this next session between, you know, Easter and Memorial Day?

Knight: I think also, I don’t know how much people are paying attention to this, but there is going to be one of those select subcommittee covid hearings next week and they’re bringing in some intelligence officials to talk about covid origins. So I think this is the first hearing with actual, like, intelligence officials. So I think it’ll be interesting to see what comes out of that. And obviously, there’s a lot of talk around, like, that practical policy implications are that Congress could kind of restrict NIH [National Institutes of Health] funding or how NIH gives out research funding because of all this talk around gain-of-function research in regards to covid origins. So I think that’s what we’re watching for rather than just the rhetoric around it, like what are the actual — how could it play out in regards to NIH funding? And then of course, can’t forget debt ceiling negotiations and work requirements are still very much being talked about.

Rovner: For Medicaid.

Knight: For Medicaid and also SNAP [Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program] potentially. So there was reporting this morning from Punchbowl saying that work requirements are very much still in the proposals that are being kicked around. So, another thing to watch.

Rovner: May is traditionally a very busy month on Capitol Hill, particularly May of the odd-numbered year, the first year of a Congress, so I imagine we’ll see a lot. One last thing I want to talk about this week, and we haven’t talked about it for a while, but the toll of gun injuries just continues to mount. In the past three weeks, we’ve had mass shootings with multiple fatalities in Tennessee, Kentucky, and Florida. In Louisville, in fact, the mayor, who himself survived a mass shooting last year, lost a close friend in the shooting this week. So it’s not all that surprising that a new poll from my colleagues over the editorial firewall at KFF found that gun violence is so common that more than one in five Americans say they have personally been threatened by a gun. Nearly as many say a family member has been killed by a gun; 17% say they have personally witnessed someone being shot. The numbers are even worse for people of color. Nearly a third of Black adults have witnessed someone being shot, and more than a third have lost a family member to gun violence. We seem to have acknowledged finally that gun violence is a public health problem. Yet that hasn’t brought us any closer as a society to solving it. I mean, we were just talking about the things that Congress might be looking at in terms of health care in the spring. But gun violence isn’t really one of them, is it?

Knight: Yeah. I think you’ve seen from the Biden administration and acknowledgment from both sides of the aisle in Congress that the bipartisan bill that passed last year, which gave a lot of money towards mental health funding and also allowed states the option to implement red flag laws and some other smaller gun safety things. They kind of acknowledged that’s as far as they’re going to be able to go in the current makeup of this Congress. So it seems like a stalemate and it’s kind of like now on a state level. And there was some talk from Tennessee’s governor about doing some small things, perhaps after the shooting in Nashville, but it doesn’t seem like there is much movement.

Rovner: And of course, in Tennessee, it was fighting about not doing anything about guns that erupted in that whole conflagration with people getting —

Knight: — expelled —

Rovner: —evicted from the Tennessee state legislature and then reappointed and yeah, I mean, that — people may not remember, that’s actually over a gun demonstration or a lack-of-gun-legislation demonstration. So who knows whether anyone will find something to do about it. All right. That is the news for this week. Now it’s time for our extra credit segment. That’s when we each recommend a story we read this week we think you should read too. As always, don’t worry if you miss it. We will post the links on the podcast page at khn.org and in our show notes on your phone or other mobile device. Sarah, why don’t you go first this week?

Karlin-Smith: Sure. I looked at an NBC News story called “Conspiracy Theorists Made Tiffany Dover Into an Anti-Vaccine Icon. She’s Finally Ready to Talk About It.” This was a nurse who was one of the first people to receive a covid vaccine when it first became available. And apparently, I guess, this is something that’s been a problem for her, she says, throughout her whole life. Sometimes with certain pain reactions she faints. And the story also talks about how she hadn’t really eaten lunch that day. But basically it was filmed and shared quite widely, including all over social media, and anti-vaccine activists basically took it and were using it sort of as proof of the harm caused by the vaccines. And the reaction to that from the hospital, and herself to some degree, was basically to just kind of keep quiet and not respond. There was very little pushback, yet — the idea was kind of if we ignore it, it will go away. But that just kept fueling everything. And basically people thought she might have even been dead and no one was telling. They thought the hospital was using her co-worker as sort of a body double to show proof of life. And a couple of years later, she’s finally trying to talk about what that experience was like and make clear again: She was fine, she was healthy, you know, she was more than happy to get the vaccine, you know, would do it again and stuff. But it’s a really interesting story because I think the journalists sort of go through again how we’ve been sort of grappling as a society with how to respond to this type of misinformation and how some of the normal kind of PR playbook strategies are actually hurting, not helping, public health. So we need to kind of shift to figure out how to handle that.

Rovner: And there are lots and lots and lots of these stories about people who, you know, quote-unquote, “died” when they got the vaccine, who are perfectly fine and walking around. It was — it was a really well done story. It’s just — it’s really kind of scary. Victoria.

Knight: Victoria, my extra credit this week is a story in The Washington Post by David Willman and Joby Warrick. It’s called “Research With Exotic Viruses Risks a Deadly Outbreak, Scientists Warn.” And so it’s basically kind of an in-depth look at how, over the years, the U.S. has funded virus research where — in other countries — where people go out into like forests and wildlife areas and collect bat samples, collect samples from different animals to try to kind of predict the next pandemic. And it profiles this one team in Thailand who has said, “We’re not accepting U.S. funds anymore.” They told the U.S. in 2021 after covid, “This feels too risky for us.” And we — they have been doing this research funded by the U.S. for four years, and they really felt like they hadn’t found much tangible benefit out of it either. So they’re kind of like, “It’s not worth the risk to our employees and potentially creating another pandemic on our own.”

Rovner: And and just to be clear, this isn’t gain-of-function research.

Knight: This is not even gain-of-function research.

Rovner: This is a different kind of potentially dangerous research.

Knight: Yeah, this is really just going out in the wild and collecting samples from animals that are out there already. But yeah, it’s not doing research in a lab that’s like altering a virus necessarily. So yeah, and so the story is kind of reckoning — like what is the balance between wanting to do scientific research and needing that knowledge for the future and the safety of employees and the general public. So, and it talked about how there is like — the U.S. does fund quite a bit of this kind of research around the world, and the pace of that has not always kept up with regulation and oversight. And so just kind of probing questions, especially as I talked about earlier — Congress does look into this issue of gain-of-function research and just the NIH funding research around the world in general.

Rovner: I feel like this whole week has been, where do government and science cross? Shefali.

Luthra: My story is from the well-named KFF Health News. It is called “For Uninsured People With Cancer, Securing Care Can Be Like Spinning A Roulette Wheel.” It’s by Charlotte Huff. It’s a really, really great look at what happens when you get cancer and in particular live in a state that didn’t expand Medicaid. Charlotte just does a really great job looking at the experiences that this woman has when she develops skin cancer and is recommended all these treatments that she can’t afford. She lives in South Carolina. She’s not eligible for Medicaid because they didn’t expand eligibility. And what it really gets into is the idea that there are a couple of cancers where you will get treatment, but for most of them, you will not get coverage; you have to pay thousands, sometimes tens of thousands out-of-pocket. And it’s a really well done, devastating look at what health care costs mean in our system and how much access really is for so much of health care based on where you happen to live.

Rovner: Yeah, it really is — really wonderful story. Well, my story, it’s also from The Washington Post, and it’s called “To Comply With a New Sesame Allergy Law, Some Businesses Add — Sesame,” by Karen Weese. So back in 2004, I covered the deliberation and passage of the Food Allergen Labeling and Consumer Protection Act, which for the first time required companies to put on the label in plain English if their products contained any of the eight major food allergens, which are milk, eggs, fish, shellfish, tree nuts, peanuts, wheat, and soybeans. It was an enormous relief, particularly to parents of young children with allergies and to anyone with a food allergy that could be fatal. So, the law also required food companies to label whether there was a chance that the product could have been cross-contaminated with one of those allergens. That’s why you sometimes see on a label, you know, quote, “This product was produced in a facility that also makes milk products or that uses nuts” or some such thing. The law has worked pretty well, say those who fought for it, and in 2021 Congress added sesame to the list of allergens that had to be labeled. Except that this time something weird happened. Many food companies, rather than carefully cleaning and monitoring their plants to ensure there would be no cross-contamination with sesame, instead are basically evading the law’s intent by adding small amounts of sesame flour to their products and then putting on the label that “This product contains sesame.” It’s dangerous for a lot of reasons but mainly because for people with sesame allergies who have eaten certain products without problems for years, they may not realize that, to them at least, a poison has been added to their favorite bread or roll or whatever kind of product. So this is something that I imagine Congress is going to want to go back and take a look at. All right. Before we go this week, you may have noticed that the introduction to the podcast has been tweaked. That’s because we have a new name. Kaiser Health News has been retired as of this week. We are KFF Health News to reflect that we are an editorially independent program of KFF, also a new name, and that neither of us is connected in any way to that big HMO [health maintenance organization] Kaiser Permanente. I hope you will bear with us as we all get used to the change. OK, that is our show. As always, if you enjoyed the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left us a review; that helps other people find us too. Special thanks, as always, to our ever-patient producer, Francis Ying. Also, as always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org. Or you can tweet me, at least for the moment. I am still @jrovner. Victoria?

Knight: @victoriaregisk.

Rovner: Sarah?

Karlin-Smith: @SarahKarlin.

Rovner: Shefali.

Luthra: @shefalil.

Rovner: We will be back in your feed next week. Until then, be healthy.

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Julie Rovner is chief Washington correspondent and host of KHN’s weekly health policy news podcast, “What the Health?” A noted expert on health policy issues, Julie is the author of the critically praised reference book “Health Care Politics and Policy A to Z,” now in its third edition.

Several states have begun the herculean task of redetermining how many of an estimated 85 million Americans currently receiving health coverage through the Medicaid program are still eligible. To receive federal covid-19 relief funds, states were required to keep enrollees covered during the pandemic. As many as 15 million people could be struck from the program’s rolls — many of whom are still eligible, or are eligible for other programs and need to be steered to them.

Meanwhile, the trustees of the Medicare program report that its Hospital Insurance Trust Fund should remain solvent until 2031, three years longer than it projected last year. That allows lawmakers to continue to put off what are likely to be politically unpleasant decisions, although they will eventually have to deal with Medicare’s underlying financial woes (and those of Social Security).

This week’s panelists are Julie Rovner of KHN, Alice Miranda Ollstein of Politico, Amy Goldstein of The Washington Post, and Rachel Roubein of The Washington Post.

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Alice Miranda Ollstein
Politico

@AliceOllstein

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Amy Goldstein
The Washington Post

@goldsteinamy

Read Amy's Stories

Rachel Roubein
The Washington Post

@rachel_roubein

Read Rachel's stories

Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:

• The Medicaid “unwinding” is likely to strip health coverage not just from millions of people who are no longer eligible for the program, but also from millions of people who still are. States are supposed to take their time reevaluating eligibility, but some are rushing to disenroll people.
• Another complication in an already complicated task is that many Medicaid workers hired during the pandemic have never actually redetermined Medicaid eligibility for anyone, because states had been required to keep people who qualified on the program.
• Grimly, some of the extra years of solvency gained in the Medicare Hospital Insurance Trust Fund are a result of pandemic deaths in the 65-and-older population.
• The Department of Health and Human Services has issued payment rules for Medicare Advantage Plans for 2024. The agency ended up conceding at least somewhat to private plans that for years have been receiving more than they should have from the U.S. Treasury. The new rules will work to shrink those overpayments going forward, but not try to recoup those from years past.
• The situation with “first-dollar coverage” of preventive services by commercial health plans is becoming a bit clearer following last week’s decision in Texas that part of the Affordable Care Act’s preventive services mandate is unconstitutional. Judge Reed O’Connor (who in 2018 ruled the entire health law unconstitutional) issued a nationwide stay on coverage requirements from the U.S. Preventive Services Task Force, saying it is a volunteer organization not subject to the oversight of the Health and Human Services secretary. The federal government is already appealing that ruling.
• But O’Connor’s decision is not quite as sweeping as first thought. He banned required coverage only of the task force’s recommendations made after March 23, 2010 — the day the ACA was signed into law. Earlier recommendations stand. O’Connor also did not strike preventive services recommended by the Health Resources and Services Administration and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices, since those agencies are overseen by an official appointed by the president and confirmed by the Senate.
• In abortion news, the liberal candidate for a Supreme Court seat in Wisconsin, Janet Protasiewicz, defeated her conservative opponent to switch the majority on the court from 4-3 conservative to 4-3 liberal. That ideological shift is likely to preserve abortion rights in the state, and possibly stem the ability of the GOP legislature to continue to draw maps that favor Republicans.
• Meanwhile, states in the South are continuing to pull back on abortion access. The Florida legislature is moving rapidly on a bill that would ban the procedure after six weeks of pregnancy, while in North Carolina, a single legislator’s switch from Democrat to Republican has given the latter a supermajority in the legislature large enough to override any veto of the Democratic governor, Roy Cooper.

Also this week, Rovner interviews Daniel Chang, who reported and wrote the latest KHN-NPR “Bill of the Month” feature about a child who had a medical bill sent to collections before he started to learn to read. If you have an outrageous or exorbitant medical bill you want to share with us, you can do that here.

Plus, for “extra credit,” the panelists suggest health policy stories they read this week that they think you should read, too:

Julie Rovner: New York Magazine’s “The Shared Anti-Trans and Anti-Abortion Playbook,” by Irin Carmon.

Alice Miranda Ollstein: The Los Angeles Times’ “Horrifying Stories of Women Chased Down by the LAPD Abortion Squad Before Roe vs. Wade,” by Brittny Mejia.

Rachel Roubein: KHN’s “‘Hard to Get Sober Young’: Inside One of the Country’s Few Recovery High Schools,” by Stephanie Daniel of KUNC.

Amy Goldstein: The Washington Post’s “After Decades Under a Virus’s Shadow, He Now Lives Free of HIV,” by Mark Johnson.

Also mentioned in this week’s podcast:

• Stat’s “Denied by AI: How Medicare Advantage Plans Use Algorithms to Cut Off Care for Seniors in Need,” by Casey Ross and Bob Herman.
• ProPublica’s “How Cigna Saves Millions by Having Its Doctors Reject Claims Without Reading Them,” by Patrick Rucker, Maya Miller, and David Armstrong.
• The Atlantic’s “There’s No Such Thing as a Casual Interaction With Your Doctor Anymore,” by Zoya Qureshi.
• Politico’s “Democrats Want to Restore Roe. They’re Divided on Whether to Go Even Further,” by Alice Miranda Ollstein and Megan Messerly.

Click to Open the Transcript

Transcript: The ‘Unwinding’ of Medicaid

KHN’s ‘What the Health?’Episode Title: The ‘Unwinding’ of MedicaidEpisode Number: 292Published: April 6, 2023

[Editor’s note: This transcript, generated using transcription software, has been edited for style and clarity.]

Julie Rovner: Hello and welcome back to KHN’s “What the Health?” I’m Julie Rovner, chief Washington correspondent at Kaiser Health News. And I’m joined by some of the best and smartest health reporters in Washington. We’re taping this week on Thursday, April 6, at 10 a.m. As always, news happens fast, and things might have changed by the time you hear this. So here we go. We are joined today via video conference by Alice Miranda Ollstein of Politico.

Alice Miranda Ollstein: Good morning.

Rovner: Rachel Roubein of The Washington Post.

Rachel Roubein: Good morning.

Rovner: And we welcome back to the podcast, after a bit of a break, Amy Goldstein, also of The Washington Post.

Amy Goldstein: Good to be back.

Rovner: Later in this episode, we will have the latest KHN-NPR “Bill of the Month” interview, with my colleague Daniel Chang. This month’s patient had a medical bill sent to collections before he was old enough to read. Impressive. But first, this week’s news. We’re going to start this week with Medicaid. During the pandemic, as most health policy nerds know, the federal government required states to keep anyone who qualified for the Medicaid program on the rolls, even if they became ineligible. But as of April 1, last week, states were free to start, quote, “unwinding” that Medicaid coverage. Now, states are facing the daunting task of determining who’s still eligible for the program and who can be removed and how those who are losing that Medicaid coverage can be steered to other programs, which they might be eligible. This is, to quote then-Vice President Biden when the ACA got passed, a BFD. So, what are some of the potential problems here? We’re talking about a lot of people, right, Amy? You wrote about this.

Goldstein: We are talking about a lot of people. It’s unclear how many people are going to lose Medicaid. But if you go by the Biden administration’s estimates, they’re thinking perhaps 15 million people out of 85 million people who are on Medicaid. So that’s a lot of low-income people who could end up without insurance or scrambling to see if they can find other insurance if they know to do that. And obviously, Medicaid is a joint federal-state enterprise, and states are the ones that carry it out. States set their eligibility rules to a large extent, and states have each had to write and submit to the federal government a plan for how they’re going to go about this unwinding. And the issue is that, with so many different plans, there are some things that CMS, Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services, want states to do — for instance, to try as much as possible to check whether people are eligible by trying to match up with other records, say, from food stamps or wage records that the states might have.

Rovner: So basically, don’t count on them responding to a letter that says you need to reestablish your eligibility for this program.

Goldstein: Exactly. But how assertively states are going to 1) do that, and secondly, how hard they’re going to try to reach people in how many different ways — time will tell.

Rovner: Yeah, I’ve noticed. I mean, some states are doing things like sending out special colored envelopes. It’s Easter week; we’ve got robin’s-egg blue envelopes. I think that was Massachusetts. Somebody’s sending out pink envelopes and magenta envelopes. But, you know, Alice, you covered when they were doing the Medicaid work requirements, and Arkansas discovered that the problem wasn’t so much that people weren’t working; it’s that people literally had trouble navigating the reporting system. And that’s kind of what we’re looking at writ large here, right?

Ollstein: Yeah. And the people who are most likely to be flagged for removal, they could be very low income. They could have unstable housing, move around a lot, stay with family. They might not receive mail at the address that was on file a few years ago. They might not have reliable phone or internet access to be reachable in those ways. So, as Amy said, it really makes a difference how much and what kind of an effort states make to let people know this is even happening. Because as we saw with work requirements and even just, like, the regular pre-pandemic periodic Medicaid eligibility checks, people fall through the cracks all of the time for reasons that are not their fault at all. And so, with this all happening at once, with so many more people than normal, the risk of that just grows.

Goldstein: And if I could just throw in one more complicating factor: If you think about what’s happened to workforces over the pandemic, a lot of the Medicaid agencies in the states have lost workers, and there are shortages in a lot of places. And people who’ve been hired in the last couple years have never had to do renewals or, as the lexicon goes, redeterminations before. So what’s going on inside the places where these decisions are going to have to get made for all these people is a bit of a problem in many, many states.

Roubein: I think how I’ve been sort of thinking about it in my mind is there’s 1) that issue of ensuring people who are still eligible don’t lose coverage. And then there’s the other issue of people who aren’t eligible for Medicaid anymore, but having states and navigators and groups help them find coverage elsewhere, whether that’s on the exchange, or some people might actually be now eligible for employer insurance. And some of that breakdown from that 15 million from that Department of Health and Human Services report — they had projected 6.8 million will lose Medicaid coverage despite being still eligible and that roughly 8.2 million people expected to leave the program because they’re no longer eligible for the program.

Rovner: And before somebody writes me and asks … [unintelligible] … I know states weren’t absolutely required to keep these people on the rolls, but they were required to keep these people on the rolls if they wanted the extra pandemic money. So every state did it. So every state basically has this task ahead of them to try to figure out how it works, and we shall keep tabs on this. I want to turn to Medicare. Last week, we got the annual report of Medicare’s trustees, which found, a little unexpectedly I think, that the program’s Hospital Insurance Trust Fund should continue to be able to pay all of its bills until 2031. That’s three years longer than it was projected to last year. Kind of grimly, apparently some of the improvement is due to many older people on Medicare dying during the covid pandemic. But this also does take some pressure off of lawmakers to fix what ails Medicare financially, right? They tend to only act when it’s within this four- or five-year window.

Ollstein: I would say yes and no. I haven’t seen a huge shift in the talk on Capitol Hill in response to this report. It’s only pushing back the deadline a few years. And it’s true, Congress only acts when there’s an imminent crisis and sometimes not even then. But I think the people really saying, “Hey, we need to do something,” are not going to stop saying that because of this.

Rovner: I’m going to put that on a T-shirt: Congress only acts when there’s an imminent crisis and sometimes not even then.

Roubein: Oh, yeah. I mean, I think that’s frustrated budget experts because Congress isn’t particularly doing anything in terms of financial solvency. And I mean, it’s really political, as we’ve seen — Biden during his State of the Union and how he got Republicans to talk about basically his ad-libbed Medicare conversation. But it’s kind of this tradition.

Rovner: “We’re not going to touch Medicare or Social Security.”

Roubein: Yeah. Off the table, this kind of tradition of “Mediscare.” No one wants to kind of be putting their foot out there with a proposal that would change Medicare.

Goldstein: This looming insolvency of Medicare is not at all a new problem. And ducking the problem is not a new phenomenon. Julie, you may remember, along with me, in the late 1990s, as a result of the big Balanced Budget Act of 1997 — this goes back a way — Congress created a bipartisan commission on the future of Medicare, and it was led by members of Congress. It was a big deal, it got a lot of attention, and it tried for many, many, many months to map out the future of Medicaid. And in the final analysis, it just dissolved in disagreements.

Rovner: Yeah, Medicare, not Medicaid,

Goldstein: Yes, Medicare.

Rovner: They did recommend a drug benefit that did eventually come to pass, but —

Goldstein: That’s right. But that was not the solvency solution.

Rovner: No, it was not. And I will say, my bookcase here at home is littered with reports of these various commissions that Congress punted to. It’s like, well, you guys solve it. And of course, no one ever has. We are still at this. But obviously this year, Rachel — you kind of hinted at this — some of this is going to come to a head because it’s part of the debt ceiling debate, that Congress is going to have to do something about the debt ceiling, lest the U.S. actually default on its debt. Republicans want to have spending cuts as part of this. They had said they wanted to do something about Medicare as part of this. Is there any update on that debate? We still seem to be in the “after you, Alphonse” portion of this, with both Biden saying he’s ready to talk to the Republicans and Republicans saying they’re ready to talk to Biden and nobody really talking to each other yet.

Roubein: Yeah, I mean, I think both sides are pretty dug in here at the moment. McCarthy a month or two ago had said no cuts to Medicare and Social Security. And Kevin McCarthy, I think it was the end of last month, had demanded a meeting with Biden. And then, you know, kind of the Biden team came back and said, “OK, well, we put out a budget. So, you know, Republicans need to produce their budget document.” And, you know, that’s kind of the political argument that we’ve been hearing for a little while here.

Rovner: Well, to paraphrase Alice, this crisis is about to get imminent, but not quite.

Goldstein: Before we leave Medicare, let me just make a couple more points. One is that this affects hospital care. So it’s not all parts of Medicare. And when the insolvency date comes — as you say, now projected to be 2031 — it’s not as if the program is going to be unable to pay any of its bills. This year its trustees said that it’s going to be able to pay 89% of the hospital benefits to which Medicare are entitled. The other point is, I mean, there’s a long-standing reason why politicians have been reluctant to fix something despite the many, many, many years of cries of, “We better fix it soon because it’s going to be harder to fix the longer we wait.” And that is that, older Americans — I mean, to state the obvious — are a very active voting bloc and they do not like the prospect of federal benefits being eroded. So there is politics behind why both parties have been reticent.

Rovner: Yes, there’s four ways to make Medicare solvent. You can pay providers less, which is what they usually end up doing, and they fight back. You can make the benefits less, either by having people wait longer to get on them or having to pay more for them. Or you can require the taxpayers to pay more money. So everything is kind of unpleasant here. And I think that’s why Congress would just as soon not do this. But while we still have Medicare teed up, we talked at some length a few weeks ago about Medicare Advantage plans, the private alternative to the government fee-for-service Medicare, and how those plans are technically being overpaid, which has prompted quite the TV advertising campaign from the plans, which I suspect very few people understand. There’s just all these sort of old people saying, “They’re going to cut our Medicare.” So the Department of Health and Human Services finally issued its Medicare Advantage payment rule for next year, and it appears to split the difference, stopping plans from continuing to overstate how sick their patients are, which is what’s responsible for a lot of the overpayments. But it limits the ability of the government to look back to recoup some of those overpayments that have been made. Is that basically a one-sentence explanation of what they’ve done here?

Roubein: The industry waged a pretty fierce battle here, but they phased in their plan. So essentially the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services had proposed switching to a more updated coding system, which included eliminating approximately 2,000 codes. And insurers claimed that this could lead to substantial pay cuts. The administration fiercely disputed that. But they did, as you say, kind of split the difference, in terms of saying, “OK, well, we’re going to phase in these changes over three years,” which CMS officials and other experts have said is something that they kind of tend to do when there is controversial policy.

Rovner: Right. When they don’t want to irritate anybody too much, although I did notice that there’s also some rules about deceptive advertising for Medicare Advantage plans. So maybe it’ll make me stop screaming at the TV when these ads come on. Moving along, last week we were able to bring you the breaking news about the preventive care ruling out of Texas from federal District Judge Reed O’Connor. What else have we learned since those first breaking hours? I know the decision doesn’t cover preventive care recommended by groups that report directly to someone in the federal government who is appointed by the president and confirmed by the Senate — at least it doesn’t at the moment. But it only limits preventive care that’s recommended by the U.S. Preventive Services Task Force. But it could still be expanded at the appeals level, right?

Goldstein: That’s right. This affects a lot of people: everybody with private health insurance, which is estimated by federal health officials to be about 150 million people. It’s not killing all free preventive services. It’s ending the mandate that they’re provided at no cost to consumers for those preventive services that the U.S. Preventive Services Task Force has either defined or updated since the Affordable Care Act was passed in 2010. So that leaves intact a few important categories of things: 1) earlier preventive services, like mammograms, which were required to be covered for free before, are still intact. It also leaves intact services that are required by two different parts of HHS. Within HRSA [Health Resources and Services Administration], they have jurisdiction over women’s health services, so that’s why things like contraception are not touched by — at the moment, as you say — by this court ruling. And similarly, an advisory body to the CDC, which has jurisdiction over vaccinations, whether it’s childhood vaccinations, covid vaccinations — so those aren’t touched. But what’s happened in the past week is, predictably, the day after Judge O’Connor — who, as I’m sure you discussed last week, was the same judge who a few years ago held that the entire ACA was unconstitutional and was ultimately overruled by the Supreme Court — anyhow, O’Connor last week said this applies nationwide, not just to places where the plaintiffs are. And the next day, the Biden administration, the Justice Department, very quickly filed a notice of appeal. It was one paragraph. It wasn’t laying out the appeal, but it was getting on the record that the administration is going to appeal to the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals, which is a conservative circuit based in New Orleans that hasn’t been entirely friendly to the ACA in the past. What the administration did not yet do is say that it wants to stay the judge’s ruling, but it’s very likely that that’s going to be requested as well.

Rovner: Even if the judge’s ruling doesn’t get stayed, it’s likely to have very little immediate impact, right? Because insurance contracts are already kind of set for the year. If insurers wanted to stop covering this — and they’re probably not going to stop covering it — but if they wanted to make it — institute copays or say this is part of your deductible — they’re likely not to do that until the next plan year, right? Alice, I see you nodding.

Ollstein: Yeah, but that isn’t uniform. So the folks I talked to said that, while most plans are baked in for the year and what we really should be looking for is when the new 2024 things start coming out in the summer into the fall, that’s what we should be watching in terms of, you know, what could change there. But that isn’t uniform. It’s possible that some plans could change earlier. There are all different kinds of possibilities, but I was kind of surprised to see the Biden administration not rush to file an appeal right away. They filed a notice of appeal, but they haven’t actually filed the appeal yet or asked for the stay, but I think that is stemming from this not being seen as an imminent threat to people’s health coverage. The piece of it I’ve really been interested in is the impact on HIV and STDs, because, like Amy said, a lot of the basic cancer screenings and other things will continue to be protected in some form because they were recommended prior to 2010. But a lot of the STD and HIV stuff is a lot more recent, so it’s a lot more vulnerable to being rolled back, and plans and employers — for a lot of these things — covering preventive services for free with no out-of-pocket costs is good; it’s really cheap to cover and it prevents a lot of expensive care down the road. But that’s sort of less true with some of these things. PrEP, the HIV prevention drug, is really expensive. A lot of the lab costs for STD testing are still expensive. And so you could see folks’ plans and employers wanting to save money by shifting some of those costs to patients. And public health experts are worried about that.

Rovner: I think another quirk of this that we didn’t realize right away is what the decision says is that it only affects USPSTF rulings that were made after the date that the Affordable Care Act was signed, March 23, 2010. But what that ends up doing is leaving in effect prior recommendations that are not necessarily up to date. So you could end up rolling back to things that medical experts no longer think is the appropriate interval or type of preventive service being required. And then, of course, you have the insurers who are going to be required to put out their bids for next year in the coming months. Now, this is not the first time insurers have had to stab in the dark at what they think the rules are going to be and how much they’re going to want to charge for that. So we’re having yet another round of insurers kind of having to throw their hands out and throw darts against the wall, right?

Goldstein: Yes. And this — Alice mentioned employers are a big constituency in this. There is some survey evidence, I mean not terribly systematic survey evidence, but a little bit of survey evidence that was done last fall with this case pending, that showed that most insurers, a high, high proportion of insurers, wanted to keep these benefits. So that may influence, as you’re saying, Julie, what the bids come in looking like while this is all still kind of murky.

Rovner: Yeah, we know it’s popular and we know in most cases it’s relatively cheap. So one would assume that this decision might not have too much impact, although as I sort of alluded to, and I haven’t heard whether this is happening yet, the plaintiffs could also appeal because they didn’t get everything they wanted. They also wanted to have the women’s health stuff out of HRSA and the immunization stuff out of CDC stayed as, you know — or the requirements gotten rid of, and the judge did not do that. So one presumes they could also appeal and we would see what happens at the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals. But I think everybody assumes at this point that it’s going to end up at the Supreme Court, yes? I see nods all around. Oh, boy. I can’t wait. All right. Well, let’s turn to abortion. The big abortion news this week comes from Wisconsin in a race for state Supreme Court, of all things, which was supposed to be nonpartisan or technically was nonpartisan. Still, the strong showing by the judge who was associated with the liberal side of the ledger could have some major impact, right? This was expected to be a very close race, and it really wasn’t.

Ollstein: No, it wasn’t close at all. The progressive candidate really took it away, and the campaign really heavily focused on abortion. This is because the state’s ban, which has been in place, you know, since long before Roe was enacted, is likely to come before the court. But the implications go way beyond that. This could change how the legislature makeup is in the future because of challenges to the gerrymandered state maps. That could, you know, open the door to Medicaid expansion and all kinds of other things, you know, related to abortion, related to all kinds of things. Because right now, you know, you have a Democratic governor who is on his second term who can’t really do very much because of the state legislature. So this could have tons and tons of repercussions going forward in Wisconsin.

Rovner: And we should point out, because I meant to say, this election flipped the state Supreme Court from 4-3 conservative to 4-3 liberal.

Roubein: It was really interesting because you saw the liberal candidate, Janet Protasiewicz, really leaning into abortion rights. And, you know, obviously she’s a judge, but in multiple ads from her campaign it said, you know, women should have the freedom to make their own decisions on abortion. That was a quote from the ads. And now, you know, kind of, she was … [unintelligible] … from the other side, like, can she be impartial when she rules? And, you know, she said like, “No, I have not promised any of these major groups, Emily’s List, etc., that are backing me, how I will rule.” But, you know, we did see the judge, as she called it, her personal beliefs and be really open about that.

Rovner: And her opponent was also pretty open about it, too. He was a very conservative guy who was pretty much promising to go down the line with what the conservatives wanted. Alice, you were about to say something.

Ollstein: Yeah, well, it’s been fascinating now that we’re a day out from the election results. There is sort of a freakout going on on the right about it and about what it means for abortion specifically. And you’re seeing a lot of very prominent people on the right publicly saying, “We have a message on abortion that voters don’t like and we need to change it right now.” People are saying that the right needs to moderate and stop pushing for near-total bans with no exceptions, which is going on in a lot of states right now. That debate was already happening on the right, but I think this just pours fuel on it. I think with the Florida governor about to be confronted with whether or not to sign a six-week ban, this really is going to squeeze a lot of people.

Rovner: Yes, I feel very smug about my extra credit story from last week, which was the Rebecca Traister long read in New York Magazine about how Democrats have underestimated how winning an issue abortion may be. And I saw her sort of also smugly tweeting late Tuesday night. It’s like, “See, I’m telling you this.” While the Upper Midwest may be getting more supportive of abortion rights, also this week Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer formally signed the repeal of the state’s nearly hundred-year-old pre-Roe ban. But in the South, the trend is going the other way, as you mentioned, Alice. Florida’s legislature is moving quickly on a six-week abortion ban, while in North Carolina a Democratic state legislator who ran on abortion rights is switching parties, giving the Republicans there a supermajority that will let them override the Democratic governor’s vetoes. Are we looking at, fairly imminent, abortion being unavailable throughout the South?

Roubein: I think Florida, North Carolina, Nebraska is also considering a similar limit — were all states that in the two months after Roe v. Wade was overturned — were states that saw an increase in abortions. I think North Carolina is particularly interesting because in early February all the Democrats had signed on to a bill to codify Roe v. Wade. But I was reporting at the time with my colleague Caroline Kitchener on this, and she talked to one of the Democrats there, who said, well — after he signed on to it — like, “Well, that doesn’t preclude me from voting for abortion restrictions.” He had said this is, quote, “This is still the first quarter.” So I think even before we saw the state Democrat switch to Republican, you know, what happened in North Carolina where there is a Democratic governor was an open question even beforehand.

Rovner: Yeah, this reminds me of Virginia trying to expand Medicaid, and there’s constantly this sort of one member, another member. I mean, it literally didn’t happen until the last vote allowed it to happen, I think.

Ollstein: Yeah. I mean, this also really puts a spotlight on the tactic of doing a ballot referendum on abortion, because —

Rovner: That was my next question, Alice.

Ollstein: Ta-da.

Rovner: Tell us about your story about that.

Ollstein: The relation to this is, yes, you have a lot of Republican lawmakers and some Democrats, or some former Democrats, as we’ve seen, who are moving very aggressively to continue to pass abortion restrictions, whether it’s total bans or something short of that. But the referendums often show that that doesn’t necessarily reflect all of the Republican electorate, which is not always aligned with their representatives on this issue. And based on the results of the six referendums last year in which the pro-abortion-rights side won all six out of six, folks are hoping to get that going in more states this year, and it’s already underway — not as much in the South, and not every state can do a referendum legally. It varies state to state what the rules are, but where it’s possible, people are trying to do it. My story this week reported on an internal fight on the left about how to go about it. So most of the referendums that are moving forward in these red and purple states right now, trying to get on the ballot in the next few years, say that basically they would only restore the protections of Roe v. Wade, so only protect abortion up to the point of fetal viability. And you have a lot of folks — you know, medical groups, activists — saying, Why are we doing that? Why are we sort of pre-compromising? We keep seeing over and over at the ballot box this is a winning issue; why aren’t we being bold? Like the right is going for total bans. Why aren’t we going for total legalization? But the folks who want the viability limit in there are saying, Look, we want to put something forward that we know is going to pass. We’ve done research and focus groups and polling. You know, this is the way we think is smartest to go. Plus, you know, the vast majority of abortions take place prior to viability anyways. And right now we have no abortion at all. So isn’t legalizing most better than nothing? And so it’s a really interesting debate.

Rovner: It’s literally the mirror image of the debate that’s going on on the right, which has been happening over the years. It’s just that it’s all kind of, you know — now that we’re in this sort of odd place — it’s all magnified. So, you know, the right is trying to decide between do we restrict abortion a little or do we just allow, you know, the end of Roe v. Wade and states to make up their mind? Or do we go for a national ban? Where the left is saying, do we just want to bring things back to where they were when we had Roe, or do we want to go further and allow and basically have public funding and sort of other things to assure what they call reproductive justice? So obviously, this fight is going to continue on both sides.

Goldstein: Let me just say that this tension between the electorate and lawmakers in fairly conservative states is a real echo of what has happened over the years with Medicaid expansion, when there have been several states in which legislators were really dug in that they weren’t going to expand Medicaid under the ACA, and public ballot initiative and it expanded. So it’s sort of turning to the exact same tactic.

Rovner: That’s right. And again, in a lot of these Republican states, the voters were very happy to expand Medicaid. So that, yes, we’ve seen this particular book before. Well, before we go, there were a couple of stories that got kicked over from last week when we had our breaking news. But I really wanted to mention about artificial intelligence in health care or at least in health insurance. One story from ProPublica details how the health insurance giant Cigna is using an algorithm to reject thousands of claims for care that’s kind of between cheap and very expensive, and then letting medical director physicians basically batch-approve those rejections on the theory, likely correct, that even if most of the care is medically appropriate, most people won’t bother to appeal a bill of just a couple of hundred dollars and will just pay it. The other story, from Stat News, is kind of strikingly similar. It’s about a Medicare Advantage plan that’s using AI to pinpoint the exact moment it can stop paying for some care, particularly expensive care, in a hospital or nursing home. Now, it would appear that the Medicare Advantage case is more egregious because it seeks to actually cut off care, where Cigna is just denying payment after the fact. But it seemed to make it pretty clear that while a) it might improve care and save money, sometimes it’s just saving money for people other than the patients, right? That’s what it certainly looks like in these cases.

Ollstein: I mean, as we’ve seen with other uses of algorithms, algorithms reflect the values of the people creating the algorithms. And you say, “Oh, it’s a robot, it’s completely impartial.” Why are there racial discrimination implications then? But we do keep seeing this and it’s like, it was created by humans, it’s going to have human failings and require oversight and accountability mechanisms.

Rovner: Yeah. And finally, one more story from the “be careful what you wish for.” There’s a story in The Atlantic this month about the downside of telehealth that at least some of us saw coming. Now that doctors can charge for and be reimbursed for virtual care by video, more and more doctors are starting to charge for other forms of communication that used to be free, like telephone calls and emails. Now, lawyers have long charged for phone calls advising clients. I always kind of wondered why doctors didn’t. I guess I have my answer now. Is this another case of anything — that any technology that’s good is probably also going to have its downsides?

Goldstein: Well, it’s also a reflection that fewer and fewer doctors work on their own. They’re working for health systems that have the bottom line in mind, which is not to say they only have the bottom line in mind, but they’re less autonomous in terms of their pricing policies.

Rovner: And yeah, are being asked to see more patients, so it takes more time to actually, you know — one of the interesting things in this in the story was that a phone call may only be five minutes for you, but it’s probably 20 minutes for your doctor who has to go make a notation in your chart and maybe call in a prescription. And it’s more than just the quick phone call for the doctor. I think this is something that used to be a courtesy and now it’s just a charge. All right, well, that is this week’s news. Now we will play my “Bill of the Month” interview with Daniel Chang and then we’ll come back with our extra credit. We are pleased to welcome to the podcast Daniel Chang, who reported and wrote the latest KHN-NPR “Bill of the Month.” Daniel, welcome to “What the Health?”

Daniel Chang: Hi, Julie. I’m glad to be here.

Rovner: So this month’s patient wasn’t even old enough for kindergarten when he got a medical bill sent to collection for care he didn’t even receive. Who is this kid? Why did he need medical care? And this is very impressive, I’ve got to say.

Chang: So, at the time — this happened last Memorial Day weekend — Keeling McLin was his name, and he was 4 years old. And according to his mom, Sara McLin, who’s a dentist in central Florida, she had just finished cooking something on the stove and Keeling had gotten up to get something. And on his way down he put his hand on the hot stove. That was pretty painful, from what she described. And so she took him to the emergency room for care.

Rovner: First she took him to urgent care, right?

Chang: Well, it was a stand-alone emergency room, so it’s one of those hybrid ones, I guess you might call it. No inpatient, of course.

Rovner: And therein is about to be our problem. So Mom did everything right here, right? She made sure that she went to a facility in her network, and then they sent her off to another hospital. But the problem is, where is the first visit, right?

Chang: Correct. The first visit was a problem. It was part of the HCA system. And they didn’t have, I guess, the resources there to treat Keeling’s burn. So they referred him to a HCA hospital with a burn center, which was about a 90-minute drive away from the stand-alone ER.

Rovner: And they managed to deal with the burn, right? The kid’s OK.

Chang: They did. He’s OK. It turned out to be not as bad as suspected. And Sara McLin told me that they drained his blisters, wrapped his hand, and sent her home with instructions on how to care for it. And she didn’t think about it again.

Rovner: Until she got the bill.

Chang: Exactly.

Rovner: This gets pretty Kafkaesque, doesn’t it? What were the bills here?

Chang: So, the first bill that she received was from the physician provider group; Envision Healthcare employed the physician in the stand-alone emergency room. That bill was for about $72. She called her insurer, which was UnitedHealthcare, and they told her that — essentially not to worry about it. And the bill itself is labeled as a surprise out-of-network bill, although when I reached out to Envision Healthcare, they said that it was not, it was part of her cost sharing. In any case, that bill didn’t cause her any problems. Shortly after that, she got a bill from the stand-alone emergency room, and this bill was considerably higher, although her share was about $129. But the reason that she was a little confused about this is because she said that the physician at the stand-alone emergency room told her, “You know what, this won’t even count as a visit because we can’t do anything for him.” So she left with that thought. And later on she said she wished she had gotten that in writing, but that was the problem bill.

Rovner: Yes. So what eventually happened?

Chang: So what eventually happened is that the bill was in Keeling’s name and it did not include his mom or his dad on there. It was just simply to Keeling. And for reasons that HCA didn’t explain, and we can’t explain, Envision got his insurance information correct, but HCA had him as an uninsured person responsible for his own bills. And it’s odd because his date of birth is on that bill. And you would think that somewhere along the line someone would catch that. But they didn’t. And so what happened is that Sara fell into this sort of twilight zone where she couldn’t speak to anyone about the bill because it wasn’t in her name. And so, according to her conversations with folks at HCA and later at Medicredit, they couldn’t talk to her because her name wasn’t on the bill. So this was the one thing that she was trying to get resolved. And she tried for months and got nowhere, which is when she reached out to us.

Rovner: And as you point out, that Medicredit is the collections agency, right? This 5-year-old’s bill got sent to collections.

Chang: That’s correct. That just kind of compounded the frustration because Sara had worked for a couple of months to get HCA to add her name onto the bill. And she had even written them a letter, she says, and they told her they were going to do it and she was waiting for the bill. But then the next letter she got was from the collection agency, for the same amount and with the same problem. Her name wasn’t on the bill. So when she called the collection agency to try to dispute the bill, they told her, “Sorry, we can’t talk to you. You’re not the authorized representative on this bill.”

Rovner: It feels like the biggest problem here is not so much that mistakes happen. They do. Obviously, they’ve happened a lot in our “Bill of the Month” series. But they are so very hard to fix — I mean, even when you say, “Look, this is a 5-year-old.”

Chang: I agree. It sounded so frustrating. And I think, ultimately, of course, that’s why she reached out to us. But she tried repeatedly and not only did she tell me this, but the bills that she provided to us had a lot of her handwritten notes in the margins and the dates that she had spoken to individuals. And it just — it’s really hard. None of the experts that we spoke with could understand why HCA couldn’t just simply fix this before they sent it to collections. And HCA acknowledged the error, and they apologized to her. And they ultimately canceled the debt. But the system clearly doesn’t seem to work in favor of patients when you have these sort of odd complications that really they didn’t have anything to do with what she owed or what they said she owed; it was all a matter of identification.

Rovner: So is there anything she could have done differently? I’m not saying, you know — she obviously couldn’t prevent the mistake from being made. But was there some better way for her to try to navigate this?

Chang: You know, neither the insurer or the providers gave us an explanation of what she could have done differently or what individuals who find themselves in a similar position could do. And so I think she did everything that she reasonably could, short of perhaps hiring an attorney? I’m not sure; maybe that would have worked, but you shouldn’t have to go to that length and that cost just to get your name on your minor child’s bill so that you can take care of it and speak to the people who say you owe them the money. It’s just — it’s crazy.

Rovner: And she’s a dentist, so she’s a health care professional. She obviously had some, you know, knowledge of the system and how it works. And even she had trouble —

Chang: That’s correct.

Rovner: — getting it done. So I guess basically the lesson is, watch your bills closely and be ready to take action.

Chang: And potentially, when I think about this situation, ensuring perhaps that the stand-alone ER had all of the information, but I can also see where she was told that, “Look, this doesn’t even count as a visit. We couldn’t treat him here. You’ve got to take him to the burn center. We won’t count this as a visit.” I think she left comfortable in that knowledge, only to realize later that, oops, it wasn’t that way. Yeah.

Rovner: Get it all in writing.

Chang: Yes.

Rovner: Daniel Chang, thank you so much.

Chang: You’re very welcome. Thanks for having me on.

Rovner: OK, we’re back. And it’s time for our extra credit segment. That’s when we each recommend a story we read this week we think you should read too. As always, don’t worry if you miss it. We will post the links on the podcast page at khn.org and in our show notes on your phone or other mobile device. Alice, why don’t you go first this week?

Ollstein: Sure. So I picked a really fascinating history piece from the LA Times by Brittny Mejia, and it’s about what law enforcement’s role was pre-Roe v. Wade in cracking down on illegal abortions. All abortions were illegal. And it just really vividly describes how cops would conduct raids on doctors who were operating clandestinely and performing abortions, you know, the tactics they would use. It was just really fascinating. And so I think it’s worth resurfacing this history, thinking, OK, so abortion is illegal again; what does enforcement look like? What could enforcement look like? And this is a very disturbing picture of what it used to look like.

Rovner: Amy, you have a story that’s kind of related to Alice’s story, also looking at history, but updated.

Goldstein: That’s right. I chose a story by my colleague at the Post, Marc Johnson, with the headline, “After Decades Under a Virus’s Shadow, He Now Lives Free of HIV.” And it’s an interview with one of only five people in the world who’ve had stem cell transplants that have cured them of cancer but also gotten rid of any evidence of HIV in their bodies. And it’s not a hugely long story, but it’s just a beautiful trajectory reminding us of what the early bad world of AIDS was, with this individual’s friends dying all around him in San Francisco, to the decades when he was on a lot of AIDS drugs, and suddenly being unexpectedly liberated from all that. It’s a good read.

Rovner: Yeah, it is. Rachel.

Roubein: My extra credit is titled “‘Hard to Get Sober Young’: Inside One of the Country’s Few Recovery High Schools,” by Stephanie Daniel of KUNC. And basically it takes the reader inside a Denver recovery high school, which mixes high school education with treatment for drug and alcohol addiction. And so this high school in Colorado — it’s one of 43 nationwide, and she kind of details the history of recovery high schools, which, the first one opened up in Silver Spring, Maryland, in 1979. And she also kind of goes through what I thought was interesting, which was kind of, the challenges of recovery high schools, most being publicly funded charter or alternative schools, and they have a higher ratio of mental health and recovery personnel, so there’s really not a ton of them nationwide.

Rovner: I had never heard of them until I saw this story. It was really interesting. Well, for the second week in a row, my story is from New York Magazine. It’s by Irin Carmon, and it’s called “The Shared Anti-Trans and Anti-Abortion Playbook.” And she points out that not only are there many of the same people fighting abortion who are also fighting trans health care, but there’s also a similarly long-term strategy, as Irin wrote. They’re focusing on youth first, because they understand that it’s much harder to convince the public to restrict the lives of adults. As someone who’s spent years covering the fight over whether or not teen girls should be able to access sex education, birth control, or abortion, it does feel familiar. OK, that is our show for this week. As always, if you enjoy the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left us a review. That helps other people find us too. Special thanks, as always, to our ever-patient producer, Francis Ying. Also, as always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org. Or you can tweet me. I’m @jrovner. Rachel?

Roubein: @rachel_roubein.

Rovner: Alice?

Ollstein: @AliceOllstein.

Rovner: Amy?

Goldstein: @goldsteinamy.

Rovner: We will be back in your feed next week. Until then, be healthy.

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Nuila’s new book, The People’s Hospital: Hope and Peril in American Medicine, uses the innovative model of the Ben Taub Hospital in Houston, where he practices, to argue for a publicly funded health system in the U.S. that’s available to everybody, with or without insurance. 

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Transcript: A Doctor’s Love Letter to ‘The People’s Hospital’

Note: “An Arm and a Leg” uses speech-recognition software to generate transcripts, which may contain errors. Please use the transcript as a tool but check the corresponding audio before quoting the podcast.

Dan: Ben Taub Hospital is a publicly funded safety net hospital in Houston, Texas. The majority of patients don’t have insurance of any kind. 

Dr. Ricardo Nuila has been working at Ben Taub since he was an intern, a medical student. He took me on a tour.

Ricardo Nuila: I started here and, you know, literally I just did not want to leave here cuz I just, just really enjoyed my job here

Dan: He’s just published a book called “The People’s Hospital” that’s not just a love letter to the place, it’s a pitch: 

Not only is this place way, way cheaper than what we’re used to, in many ways it’s better. And it’s a model, a real alternative to what-we’re-used-to.

So, I ask him to pick ONE patient’s story from the book to tell, he picks a patient he calls Stephen. A restaurant manager, a Republican. A guy who did not expect to end up here.

But he had a giant lump on the side of his throat, and his insurance didn’t cover much. He paid cash, upfront, to get seen in a local ER. 

Ricardo Nuila: finally there was a doctor who had seen a CAT scan and said, you have tonsillar cancer, cancer, however, you don’t have, uh, insurance 

Dan: Tonsillar cancer. Cancer of the tonsils. That landed hard. So did the “however.” 

Ricardo Nuila: He felt shitty you know, that somebody could tell you cancer, but there’s nothing that we are gonna do about it because of, of how much and…

Dan: It’s like it’s too painful — or too obvious — to finish the sentence: Because of your insurance. Somebody tells Steven to try the public hospital, Ben Taub. He expects the worst. But that’s not what he finds.

Ricardo Nuila: He comes to love this place. He gives, this is like so Steven, but he, he gives gift cards to the people greeting at the door because they’re nice and they do their job well cuz they make his day,

Dan: And it’s not just that he likes the people at the door.

Ricardo Nuila: He feels like he got really good healthcare and that he also, um, thought that the price was extremely reason.

Dan: Stephen lost his insurance when he got too sick to work, and he doesn’t qualify for Medicaid. He owns a house, he’s got savings, Texas has really stringent Medicaid restrictions– so he’s paying out of pocket.

Ricardo Nuila: But his final bill is pennies of what he thought he would pay.

Dan: Stephen’s dad had gotten radiation treatment for cancer, and the sticker price was 700 thousand dollars. Stephen had gotten radiation AND chemo AND surgery — and had been hospitalized for a good while. 

His bill was 32 thousand, three hundred and seventy-eight bucks. Real money for sure, but he can pay it. And it’s less than five percent of his dad’s bill for much less extensive treatment. 

Ricardo Nuila: And the healthcare is really good. And so he’s almost proud that he’s had this experience

Dan: Steven’s become a convert. And as Ricardo Nuila walks me into a conference room, it’s clear: He hopes his book will create more converts. 

Ricardo Nuila: you start to see this model and it makes you think, can things be different in healthcare? I think that that’s an option. But we as a country haven’t thought about that. Seriously. You know?

Dan: And if it seems politically unimaginable that we could have anything like this around the country– an effective, efficient, CHEAP, publicly-funded health system– 

Well, the idea that Houston could have one, that was pretty unlikely too.

In fact, the story of how Ben Taub got here may be the most surprising story in Ricardo Nuila’s whole book. 

This is An Arm and a Leg, a show about why health care costs so freaking much, and what we can maybe do about it. I’m Dan Weissmann. I’m a reporter, and I like a challenge. So our job on this show is to take one of the most enraging, terrifying, depressing parts of American life and to bring you a show that’s entertaining, empowering and useful.

Ben Taub Hospital sits at the edge of the Texas Medical Center– that’s a giant neighborhood full of hospitals and medical schools, including some of the best in the country, like the M.D. Anderson cancer center. 

In his book, Ricardo Nuila writes about how some patients at Ben Taub can see from their rooms the gleaming buildings of Ben Taub’s neighbors. 

So when I visit, I make him show me the view. We look out from a stairwell at a glass tower, M.D. Anderson’s Sheikh Zayed building.

Ricardo Nuila: that’s glamorous. Right? you get a glimpse into the rest of the medical center here. Ben Taub sticks out, I feel like, because it’s, it’s brick versus glass. 

Dan: But as Ricardo Nuila makes clear in his book: This unglamorous brick building gets the job done. 

In addition to Steven, there’s Ebonie, whose complicated pregnancy — there’s a lot of vaginal bleeding– gets tracked more precisely than it would elsewhere: 

At other hospitals, nurses eyeball the pads that absorb that blood and note heavy, medium or light bleeding. At Ben Taub, they’ve adopted an innovative approach: weighing each pad to get an exact measurement. 

Another patient, Christian, has bounced around other systems without anybody accurately diagnosing the dire kidney problems that have kept him in pain for years. Because he didn’t have good insurance, it wasn’t worth anybody’s time. 

At Ben Taub, insurance isn’t an obstacle, 

Ricardo Nuila: We organize things, which is basically, okay, we need to focus on your kidneys right now and we need to get you to see a geneticist. And both of those things happened.

Dan: they not only diagnose him, they get him on a form of dialysis that he can manage himself at home.

It’s cheaper, and delivers better quality of life for him.

Everything at Ben Taub is cheaper. The system spends about a third as much per patient as the national average. In part, that may be because nobody earns million-dollar salaries here. 

But Ricardo Nuila makes the case over and over again that they take the time– because they have it– to make wise use of resources. 

They don’t have as many MRI machines as other hospitals. But guess what? A lot of patients don’t need MRIs. 

But Ben Taub can’t meet every need: One patient, Geronimo, needs a liver transplant, and that requires resources the hospital just doesn’t have. 

But Ricardo Nuila and his colleagues put a lot of time into wrenching him back onto Medicaid, so he can get the transplant somewhere else. They rope in a Congressman to get it done. 

Geronimo tells his mom:”I feel so important. Everyone treats me like I’m rich.” 

Ricardo Nuila: That’s what I think a lot of people really want is just the sense that the person who’s responsible for your care is thinking through the problem with you and aware that you are not having a great day and wants to deal with that situation with you. And I just felt like this environment allowed me to like, have those moments.

Dan: So who pays for this environment? It may be cheaper, but it isn’t free. 

Some patients are on Medicaid. Some are on Medicare. Some have private insurance. But the majority don’t have any insurance at all. 

Some, like Stephen, pay cash. And a lot of the rest — about a third of Ben Taub’s patients — are treated for free.

The bulk of Ben Taub’s funding comes from a special property tax in Harris County, where Houston is located. It funds a whole system called Harris Health– Ben Taub, a second hospital, and a bunch of clinics. 

And of course, none of this has always existed. 

In fact, it’s only here, like this, because of a really wild story, with two big characters. One of whom wasn’t even from Houston. He was a writer I’d never heard of, a Dutch guy named Jan de Hartog.

Ricardo Nuila: de Hartog was one of the most amazing people that you could read about. He was a Nazi resistance fighter, Dutch ship captain. 

Dan: And while he was hiding out in Denmark during the war– in between saving a few Jewish babies and running war missions in his tugboat–  

he wrote a romantic dramedy that — later became a broadway hit. And then got adapted into a Broadway musical called I Do, I Do– which, Broadway-musical nerds in the house– starred Mary Martin and Robert Preston– you know, The Music Man– and had a song that your mom might still remember. 

 (musical sounds) 

Dan: Yeah. So, interesting guy. And in the early 1960s he came to Houston to teach playwriting at a local University.  It was a big time for him. He’d just gotten married — for the third time, but this one was for keeps- and become a Quaker. 

Ricardo Nuila: And when he and his wife Marjorie come to Houston, they find that there’s all these whisperings about this charity hospital in town in Houston about how, how awful the conditions are. That the children in the maternity ward would cry all night for the, for a lack of milk, and so as part of his faith, he decides that he needs to volunteer there

Dan: When de Hartog writes about the hospital later, he describes the experience of walking in for the first time as literally mind-boggling. 

He’s like: I know what a hospital smells like. Disinfectant, maybe some fresh laundry. And I know what a slaughterhouse smells like: Blood, and shit. And the smell here is slaughterhouse. 

As he looks around, the sights are something else.

Ricardo Nuila: He sees a cockroach crawling into the tracheostomy of like a patient. He sees like people sitting in their own filth. 

Dan: He and Marjorie do not up and quit. They stick around. And then they recruit a dozen Quakers and a few society ladies to come volunteer with them, and get the Red Cross to train them.

And it’s nuts. This is a rich city. The ZOO is air conditioned. But not this hospital. 

And he starts to catch on: Why it’s so horrible.

Number one is racism. 

The hospital serves mostly Black and Brown patients. When Jan and Marjorie start volunteering, the other volunteers are all society ladies, and the whole program is set up so they don’t touch patients. DeHartog later says he asked why, and the volunteer coordinator says, Southern ladies can’t have physical contact with black people.

But she doesn’t say black people. She uses the n-word. 

 When he asks staff why public officials don’t do something about the rotten conditions, they say: What politician is going to stick up for black people? The n-word comes up again. 

And– de Hartog doesn’t make this connection, but it seems pretty on the nose: The hospital itself is named after Jefferson Davis, who led the Confederacy in the Civil War. 

But there’s also a political mechanism for institutionalizing this neglect, without ever having to acknowledge the role of racism: 

No one particular political entity — no one particular political leader– is responsible for the public hospital, financially. The city of Houston and Harris County are each supposed to kick in HALF. So it doesn’t belong to either of them. Here’s de Hartog describing the city-county dynamic in a lecture he gave many years later. 

Jan de Hartog: And they were continuously at each other’s throats. The one said, you don’t pay enough. The other said, but you don’t. And they went back and forth

Dan: The top official for Harris County actually has the title County Judge. At that time, this was a guy named Bill Elliott. 

And you’ll hear in this clip from a local newscast, he wasn’t exactly reaching for the bill. Here he is, explaining why the some problem with the hospital is actually the CITY’s fault. 

Judge Bill Elliott: it’s absolutely ridiculous, uh, to say that, uh, this is a responsibility and this is the fault of Harris County.

Dan: And the city? At least one.council member is calling for a budget cut. 

Which really pisses de Hartog off. 

And de Hartog actually loves the city. It’s an exciting place. It’s booming– growing super-fast. And it’s not just an oil town. 

Ricardo Nuila: Houston at that time was the home of NASA.

NASA narrator: Future manned space flight missions to the moon and perhaps the planets will be commanded from this control room of the Mission Control Center at NASA’s Manned Spacecraft Center,

Ricardo Nuila: It had built this Astrodome, it was the city of the future. 

Dan: The Astrodome– you know, a sports stadium WITH AIR CONDITIONING. . 

Astrodome Narrator: A fully enclosed building, large enough for any sport convention show or conclave with constant temperature and humidity independent of outside weather,

Dan: CBS News does a report about the booming city: NASA, the oil wealth, the Astrodome. And de Hartog is a main character– talking about how much he loves the town.

Jan de Hartog:  it is a city of, a city of unlimited opportunities. It’s an immensely exciting town, and you feel that anything is possible, 

Dan: It wraps up with Walter Cronkite talking about how everybody in town is absolutely nuts about football.

Walter Cronkite: Their brand of football is like their brand of city and brand of life. Play wide open. Take a chance, try anything. Above all, do it with zest and do it big. 

Dan: Oh, and there’s this OTHER thing Houston is really becoming known for. 

Cutting edge medicine. For twenty years, the city’s been building the Texas Medical Center — that giant campus where more than a dozen hospitals and med schools now operate right on top of each other. Baylor College of Medicine actually moved from Dallas to Houston to be part of it. 

Ricardo Nuila: Houston is a really deeply medical city. And at that time they’re all working on extraordinary things

Dan: Yeah, in 1964, while Jan de Hartog is witnessing the suffering at the charity hospital, Dr. Michael deBakey is performing the world’s first coronary artery bypass at a private hospital in town. 

But the medical establishment were not allies. Jefferson Davis hospital, on the outskirts of town, was about to be replaced by a new building in the Texas Medical Center. 

But the Medical Society– the local doctors’ association — hadn’t wanted the charity hospital as a neighbor. They’d actually put up a ballot initiative to keep the new building at the old site. 

Medical Society Voice-Over: you the taxpayer, will pay the extra cost That’s why your doctor recommends you vote for the new hospital to remain at its present site. 

Dan: It hadn’t worked, but along with the budget cuts, officials were now talking about DELAYING the charity hospital’s move to the new building, which had just been completed. De Hartog and his friends, smell a rat. 

They think the powers that be are actually going to sell the new building in the Medical Center to some other hospital that wants in. This has been a public conversation.

Jan de Hartog: There had been offers to buy it and they wanted to wait for the highest bidder

Ricardo Nuila: He writes a series of op-eds for the Houston Chronicle that start to get press, not just in Houston, but around the country and in fact around the world. 

Dan: He describes the awful things he’s seen. And he appeals to Houstonians’ sense of pride in their bustling, futuristic city. A city he loves, too. Here’s how his first op-ed ends…

Jan de Hartog: I cannot believe that it is the will of the citizens of Houston, that our growing medical center rightly becoming famous all over the. Shall be allowed to harbor the cancerous sore of man’s inhumanity to man. It would turn the entire center planned as Houston’s glory into Houston’s shame. 

Dan: Even just that first op ed made a lot of noise.

Jan de Hartog: the bomb exploded and the national magazines and newspapers and TV zeroed in on the hospital to find out what was going on, 

Dan: … and immediately, the hospital DOES move into its new home in the Medical Center. But the funding issue isn’t solved. 

So de Hartog keeps pushing. 

Ricardo Nuila: He writes a book called “The Hospital” 

Dan: He goes to churches around town, synagogues, everywhere he can, recruiting hundreds of volunteers. 

But there’s no political progress — and conditions at the hospital actually get worse. Key nurses get burned out and quit. Things go to hell.

In a harrowing diary entry, he writes about full bedpans left on tables next to trays of food. About a patient crying out for help, and hearing back “Shut up!” 

Jan de Hartog: Never before had I realized to this extent, the depth of our damnation, and at that deepest moment of desperation, when we knew nothing could be done, nothing would change for the simple reason that

Jan de Hartog: those who had the fate of the hospital in their hands were not there. Mayor Welsh didn’t work there. Uh, commissioner Bill Elliot Judge, the county judge did not work there. 

Dan: But THEN, there’s a turn. Somebody shows up. That’s right after this.

This episode of An Arm and a Leg is produced in partnership with Kaiser Health News. That’s a non-profit newsroom about health care in America. KHN is not affiliated with the giant health care player Kaiser Permanente. We’ll have more information about KHN at the end of this episode.

So, Jan de Hartog keeps slogging away. 

He gives a talk at a Baptist church– he reads that diary entry, the one with the bedpans, and the absence of Judge Elliott and other leaders.

And at first he thinks he didn’t go over so big. Nobody even raises their hand to volunteer. 

But then it happens. 

Jan de Hartog: When, uh, we were about to leave, a man turned up with a baby on his hip who said, uh, do you train people at night?

Dan: And the guy seems to be looking around, trying to make sure nobody’s listening. De Hartog tells the guy, yeah, we could do that…

Jan de Hartog: He said, I mean, a dead of night without anybody seeing. 

Dan: De Hartog’s like, “um, sure, I guess. Why, though?” 

Jan de Hartog: He said, well, I am Judge Elliot, 

Dan: Judge Elliott. The county judge. Probably the most powerful politician in town. That’s who wants to volunteer. In secret. Without anybody seeing. He says to de Hartog

Jan de Hartog: I cannot do it as a judge, but I must do it as a man. And that was the moment that the whole damn thing changed.. 

Dan: Because Judge Bill Elliott followed through.

Ricardo Nuila: He trains himself in a clandestine manner to be an orderly, at night, and he verifies everything that de Hartog has said. 

Dan: de Hartog actually oversees the judge’s final practical exam, where Bill Elliott tends to an African-American man named Willie Small. 

Jan de Hartog: the judge with his thermometer went and put his hand on Willie’s shoulder and said, Mr. Small, sir, I’d like to take your temperature to hear that, to hear a southern judge, , say “Mr. Small, sir” 

Dan: It was a symbolic moment. The judge had to touch, had to defer to, a Black man. So not only had the judge now seen everything, he took responsibility for what he had seen. 

There’s a proposal for a county-wide property tax, to fund what’s called a Hospital District. Now there’s a referendum, and Elliott backs it all the way.

Jan de Hartog: and we all waited with baited breaths for the outcome. And it was no

Dan: Yeah. The referendum fails. And as de Hartog tells it, once it does, a real backlash starts to build. It gets personal.

Jan de Hartog: those who had resented our presence from the very beginning became vocal. Margie and I, were called communists

Ricardo Nuila: De Hartog just would not flinch. I mean, he and his wife’s lives were threatened. 

Dan: Also, somebody threw a bag of excrement at their door. 

Eventually, de Hartog says the Red Cross, which was training and supervising volunteers at the hospital, came to him and Marjorie and said, “It might be better for us if you left town for a while.” 

They did — went on to all kinds of adventures. 

Meanwhile, Bill Elliott kept pushing, and keeps pulling in allies– including, eventually, the Medical Society. 

Ricardo Nuila: he rallies them to get behind it.

Dan: He gets the question on the ballot AGAIN later that same year. And it passes in November 1965. 

It’s a big moment. 

Ricardo Nuila:  What’s also interesting is that it’s forgotten. Something that I’ve gleaned from all this is that you know, people will forget and you have to remind them. 

Dan:  And while we’re remembering: In 1965, the whole country is making some big commitments to health care for a lot of people. President Lyndon Johnson signs Medicare and Medicaid into law in July of that year.

It’s probably also worth noting that Medicare and Medicaid help make Ben Taub possible: About a third of the hospital’s patients are on one or the other. It’s a minority of patients, but it’s many millions of dollars of funding. 

The 1960s were a notoriously divisive time. And so is this. 

Ricardo Nuila doesn’t ignore today’s political polarization — or how that polarization makes it hard to imagine a national conversation about creating a different health care system. 

Or the role that doctors have historically played in resisting that conversation.

It’s part of his story. His family story. And in a book about a place where a lot of sad things do happen, this may be the toughest one.

Ricardo Nuila: I was born into a family of doctors and my dad in many ways was a hero to me. I saw how much pride he took in his work of being a doctor 

Dan: But over time– as insurance companies got tougher to deal with– the business side of running a medical practice looked a lot less apealing. 

Ricardo Nuila: . He had to hire more and more staff. He hired his mother, my grandmother, who is, uh, the type of person not to back down from Chicago, you know, . And so, her job was to be on the insurance companies to make sure that they wouldn’t, screw him out of money.

Dan: His dad turned away patients who didn’t have insurance. His dad growled and grumbled– about insurance companies, and about patients who didn’t have money to pay. 

When Ricardo finished college and got into medical school, he put off starting for two years. What he sees as his dad’s life in the business of health care is not appealing.

Ricardo Nuila: the grind wears on him, you know? The fighting with the insurance companies

Dan: I mean in the book, your dad is a bit of a stand-in for . For doctors as a doctoring, as profession and the, and the way in which doctors get alienated from medicine. 

Ricardo Nuila: yeah, he is a stand in a bit for doctors. And it’s gonna be, I think the doctors have a lot to say about how healthcare goes in America,

Ricardo Nuila: And unfortunately, the history shows that they haven’t been a great piece of that, at least as far as universal healthcare is concerned. 

Dan: This becomes part of Ricardo’s story with his dad. Dad invites him to form a family practice. Ricardo chooses Ben Taub. And over the years, it becomes clear: They’re on opposite sides of a political divide. There are painful conversations, and then they go months without speaking. 

Ricardo Nuila: that’s how deep politics run, you know, it’s really, it’s really difficult when you overlay like politics onto like a family dynamic,

Ricardo Nuila: It just felt like he was like totally on board with this idea that, you know, healthcare is something that is earned and healthcare is something that people, if you can’t afford it, you don’t deserve it. Is what I heard from what he was saying. 

Dan: is your dad an ideal reader of the book? Is your dad kind of who the person you wanna make that case to? 

Ricardo Nuila: That’s really interesting.

Ricardo Nuila: I would say this, that, I did not write this to preach to the choir for sure.

Dan: But he’s not sure his dad would actually pick up a book like this.

Ricardo Nuila: It’s just because I know my dad, he, my dad’s the type of person who reads John Grisham on a beach, you know? So I’m not a hundred percent sure if he would pick up this book, you know?

Dan: Unless, say, his son wrote it. Ricardo does expect his dad to read The People’s Hospital. And even if he doesn’t agree with everything his son has written, Ricardo thinks his dad will be proud.

Ricardo Nuila: I can tell you now as a, as a father, , it’s not clear that your kids are gonna come out Okay. . You know what I mean? I’m just saying that like he has reason to be proud just because I’m a, a living and breathing person right now, you know?

Ricardo Nuila: And I’m, I’m working in as a doctor. So I, I feel, I feel good for him. 

Ricardo Nuila: And I think that he’s probably very happy that I wrote about medicine cuz he loves medicine.

Dan: The last chapter of “The People’s Hospital” is called “faith” And in it, Ricardo Nuila describes a daily ritual that he says keeps him grounded. It starts with passing a plaque on his way in. Of course I have him show it to me. 

Ricardo Nuila: I park like right over there, .

Ricardo Nuila: I come in here and I just look at, look at this every time. 

Dan: So, and describe what we’re seeing here.

Ricardo Nuila: Well, we’re seeing, a plaque that, talks about when this hospital was founded, and the people who constructed the building. And there’s also the, I forgot this is, this is bad of me, but I forgot the name.

Dan: the snake around the stick?  

Ricardo Nuila: I’m in big trouble now because I’m on the Caduceus Caduceus. I, it’s the Cadus. Yeah. 

Ricardo Nuila: And it’s just a reminder, you know, that we have this structure in place to help care for people who don’t have, uh, the means and that, and 

Dan: that people decided to put this building here. Yeah. 

Ricardo Nuila: Exactly. It’s a community effort.

Dan: Ricardo Nuila writes that he sees that community as he walks from that plaque to his desk– all the co-workers, in every kind of job, doing their best. 

And this is the faith that he says gets affirmed— reading from the book here: 

If someone is suffering and there is the capacity within the community to help, in a way that doesn’t harm anyone else, then we not only owe it to that person, we owe it to ourselves to help. 

Whatever your politics are, I think that’s pretty great. 

Dr. Ricardo Nuila practices at Ben Taub Hospital. He’s associate professor of Medicine, Medical Ethics and Health Policy at Baylor College of Medicine. His book is called “The People’s Hospital.”

Honestly there’s a lot in this book, — more patient stories, more family stories, a very deft summary of a hundred years of health care economics and politics.

I’ll tell you: reading this book, I was reminded of an idea I’ve had before.  That it might be cool someday to convene a kind of “Arm and a Leg” book club. Because I’d like to have someone to talk with about a book like this– like maybe you. 

Right now, that’s just an idea. The how would take a LOT of figuring out.  

But I’m curious how that idea sounds to you. You can let me know at Arm and a Leg show dot com, slash contact.

I mean, that’s always a good place to send ideas and stories and questions— so many of our best episodes come from you.

And I’m curious what you think about this virtual book club idea. If you’ve taken part in something like this, or helped to organize it, I’d love to hear how it went.

That’s arm and a leg show dot com, slash contact.

Next time on An Arm and a Leg: A woman named Lisa French asked her hospital what her surgery would cost her. They said, with your insurance, about thirteen hundred bucks.

They expected about 55 thousand more from insurance. 

They got 75 thousand. But then they wanted more. 229 thousand more. They wanted it from Lisa French, and they sued her for it.

After eight years, the case finally got resolved last June. Lisa French won!

The case has a LOT to teach us about our legal rights. 

That’s next time on An Arm and a Leg.

Till then, take care of yourself.

This episode of An Arm and a Leg was produced by me, Dan Weissmann, with help from Emily Pisacreta, and edited by Afi Yellow-Duke.

The recording of Jan de Hartog’s lecture is courtesy of the Baylor College of Medicine Archives. 

The audio of Bill Elliott is from a KHOU-TV newscast, thanks to the Texas Archive of the Moving Image.

Big thanks to the archivists who helped us find some of the tape for this episode! 

That includes Emily Vinson at the University of Houston library 

Matt Richardson and Sandra Yates at the Texas Medical Center Archives

And David Olmos at the Baylor College of Medicine archives. 

Daisy Rosario is our consulting managing producer. Adam Raymonda is our audio wizard.  Our music is by Dave Winer and Blue Dot Sessions. 

Gabrielle Healy is our managing editor for audience. She edits the First Aid Kit Newsletter. 

Bea Bosco is our consulting director of operations. Sarah Ballema is our operations manager. 

This season of an arm and a leg is a co production with Kaiser health news. That’s a nonprofit news service about healthcare in America, an editorially-independent program of the Kaiser family foundation. 

KHN is not affiliated with Kaiser Permanente, the big healthcare outfit. They share an ancestor: The 20th century industrialist Henry J Kaiser. When he died, he left half his money to the foundation that later created Kaiser health news.

You can learn more about him and Kaiser health news at arm and a leg show dot com slash Kaiser. 

Zach Dyer is senior audio producer at KHN. He is editorial liaison to this show. 

Thanks to Public Narrative — That’s a Chicago-based group that helps journalists and non-profits tell better stories– for serving as our fiscal sponsor, allowing us to accept tax-exempt donations. You can learn more about Public Narrative at www dot public narrative dot org. 

And thanks to everybody who supports this show financially. 

If you haven’t yet, we’d love for you to join us. The place for that is arm and a leg show dot com, slash support.

Thank you!

“An Arm and a Leg” is a co-production of KHN and Public Road Productions.

To keep in touch with “An Arm and a Leg,” subscribe to the newsletter. You can also follow the show on Facebook and Twitter. And if you’ve got stories to tell about the health care system, the producers would love to hear from you.

To hear all KHN podcasts, click here.

And subscribe to “An Arm and a Leg” on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, Pocket Casts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

KHN (Kaiser Health News) is a national newsroom that produces in-depth journalism about health issues. Together with Policy Analysis and Polling, KHN is one of the three major operating programs at KFF (Kaiser Family Foundation). KFF is an endowed nonprofit organization providing information on health issues to the nation.

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“It was a time of a lot of learning, turnaround, and pivoting for me, because we weren’t necessarily expecting that kind of life change,” she said.

Ferrell Ortiz would have liked a little more guidance to navigate the application process for Medicaid. She was inundated with forms. She spent days on end on the phone trying to figure out what was covered and where she could go to get care.

“Sometimes the representative that I would speak to wouldn’t know the answer,” she said. “I would have to wait for a follow-up and hope that they actually did follow up with me. More than 476,000 pregnant Texans are currently navigating that fragmented, bureaucratic system to find care. Medicaid provides coverage for about half of all births in the state — but many people lose eligibility not long after giving birth.

Many pregnant people rely on Medicaid coverage to get access to anything from prenatal appointments to prenatal vitamins, and then postpartum follow-up. Pregnancy-related Medicaid in Texas is available to individuals who make under $2,243 a month. But that coverage ends two months after childbirth — and advocates and researchers say that strict cutoff contributes to rates of maternal mortality and morbidity in the state that are higher than the national average.

They support a bill moving through the Texas legislature that would extend pregnancy Medicaid coverage for a full 12 months postpartum.

Texas is one of 11 states that has chosen not to expand Medicaid to its population of uninsured adults — a benefit offered under the Affordable Care Act, with 90% of the cost paid for by the federal government. That leaves more than 770,000 Texans in a coverage gap — they don’t have job-based insurance nor do they qualify for subsidized coverage on healthcare.gov, the federal insurance marketplace. In 2021, 23% of women ages 19-64 were uninsured in Texas.

Pregnancy Medicaid helps fill the gap, temporarily. Of the nearly half a million Texans currently enrolled in the program, the majority are Hispanic women ages 19-29.

Texans living in the state without legal permission and lawfully present immigrants are not eligible, though they can get different coverage that ends immediately when a pregnancy does. In states where the Medicaid expansion has been adopted, coverage is available to all adults with incomes below 138% of the federal poverty level. For a family of three, that means an income of about $34,300 a year.

In Texas, childless adults don’t qualify for Medicaid at all. Parents can be eligible for Medicaid if they’re taking care of a child who receives Medicaid, but the income limits are low. To qualify, a three-person household with two parents can’t make more than $251 a month.

For Ferrell Ortiz, the hospitals and clinics that accepted Medicaid near her Dallas neighborhood felt “uncomfortable, uninviting,” she said. “A space that wasn’t meant for me” is how she described those facilities.

Later she learned that Medicaid would pay for her to give birth at an enrolled birthing center.

“I went to Lovers Lane Birth Center in Richardson,” she said. “I’m so grateful that I found them because they were able to connect me to other resources that the Medicaid office wasn’t.”

Ferrell Ortiz found a welcoming and supportive birth team, but the Medicaid coverage ended two months after her daughter arrived. She said losing insurance when her baby was so young was stressful. “The two-months window just puts more pressure on women to wrap up things in a messy and not necessarily beneficial way,” she said.

In the 2021 legislative session, Republican Gov. Greg Abbott signed a bill extending pregnancy Medicaid coverage from two months to six months postpartum, pending federal approval.

Last August, The Texas Tribune reported that extension request had initially failed to get federal approval, but that the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services had followed up the next day with a statement saying the request was still under review. The Tribune reported at the time that some state legislators believed the initial application was not approved “because of language that could be construed to exclude pregnant women who have abortions, including medically necessary abortions.”The state’s application to extend postpartum coverage to a total of six months is still under review.

The state’s Maternal Mortality and Morbidity Review Committee is tasked with producing statewide data reports on causes of maternal deaths and intervention strategies. Members of that committee, along with advocates and legislators, are hoping this year’s legislative session extends pregnancy Medicaid to 12 months postpartum.

Kari White, an associate professor at the University of Texas-Austin, said the bureaucratic challenges Ferrell Ortiz experienced are common for pregnant Texans on Medicaid.

“People are either having to wait until their condition gets worse, they forgo care, or they may have to pay out-of-pocket,” White said. “There are people who are dying following their pregnancy for reasons that are related to having been pregnant, and almost all of them are preventable.”

In Texas, maternal health care and Pregnancy Medicaid coverage “is a big patchwork with some big missing holes in the quilt,” White said. She is also lead investigator with the Texas Policy Evaluation Project (TxPEP), a group that evaluates the effects of reproductive health policies in the state. A March 2022 TxPEP study surveyed close to 1,500 pregnant Texans on public insurance. It found that “insurance churn” — when people lose health insurance in the months after giving birth — led to worse health outcomes and problems accessing postpartum care.

Chronic disease accounted for almost 20% of pregnancy-related deaths in Texas in 2019, according to a partial cohort review from the Texas Maternal Mortality and Morbidity Review Committee’s report. Chronic disease includes conditions such as high blood pressure and diabetes. The report determined at least 52 deaths were related to pregnancy in Texas during 2019. Serious bleeding (obstetric hemorrhage) and mental health issues were leading causes of death.

“This is one of the more extreme consequences of the lack of health care,” White said.

Black Texans, who make up close to 20% of pregnancy Medicaid recipients, are also more than twice as likely to die from a pregnancy-related cause than their white counterparts, a statistic that has held true for close to 10 years with little change, according to the MMMRC report.

Stark disparities such as that can be traced to systemic issues, including the lack of diversity in medical providers; socioeconomic barriers for Black women such as cost, transportation, lack of child care and poor communication with providers; and shortcomings in medical education and providers’ implicit biases — which can “impact clinicians’ ability to listen to Black people’s experiences and treat them as equal partners in decision-making about their own care and treatment options,” according to a recent survey.

Diana Forester, director of health policy for the statewide organization Texans Care for Children, said Medicaid coverage for pregnant people is a “golden window” to get care.

“It’s the chance to have access to health care to address issues that maybe have been building for a while, those kinds of things that left unaddressed build into something that would need surgery or more intensive intervention later on,” she said. “It just feels like that should be something that’s accessible to everyone when they need it.”

Extending health coverage for pregnant people, she said, is “the difference between having a chance at a healthy pregnancy versus not.”

As of February, 30 states have adopted a 12-month postpartum coverage extension so far, according to a KFF report, with eight states planning to implement an extension.

“We’re behind,” Forester said of Texas. “We’re so behind at this point.”

Many versions of bills that would extend pregnancy Medicaid coverage to 12 months have been filed in the legislature this year, including House Bill 12 and Senate Bill 73. Forester said she feels “cautiously optimistic.”

“I think there’s still going to be a few little legislative issues or land mines that we have to navigate,” she said. “But I feel like the momentum is there.”

Ferrell Ortiz’s daughter turns 5 this year. Amelie is artistic, bright, and vocal in her beliefs. When Ferrell Ortiz thinks back on being pregnant, she remembers how hard a year it was, but also how much she learned about herself.

“Giving birth was the hardest experience that my body has physically ever been through,” she said. “It was a really profound moment in my health history — just knowing that I was able to make it through that time, and that it could even be enjoyable — and so special, obviously, because look what the world has for it.”

She just wishes people, especially people of color giving birth, could get the health support they need during a vulnerable time.

“If I was able to talk to people in the legislature about extending Medicaid coverage, I would say to do that,” she said. “It’s an investment in the people who are raising our future and completely worth it.”

This story is part of a partnership that includes KERA, NPR, and KHN.

KHN (Kaiser Health News) is a national newsroom that produces in-depth journalism about health issues. Together with Policy Analysis and Polling, KHN is one of the three major operating programs at KFF (Kaiser Family Foundation). KFF is an endowed nonprofit organization providing information on health issues to the nation.

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Julie Rovner is chief Washington correspondent and host of KHN’s weekly health policy news podcast, “What the Health?” A noted expert on health policy issues, Julie is the author of the critically praised reference book “Health Care Politics and Policy A to Z,” now in its third edition.

Opponents of the Affordable Care Act may have stopped trying to overturn the entire law in court, but they have not stopped challenging pieces of it — and they have found an ally in Fort Worth, Texas: U.S. District Judge Reed O’Connor. In 2018, O’Connor held that the entire ACA was unconstitutional — a ruling eventually overturned by the Supreme Court. Now the judge has found that part of the law’s requirement for insurers to cover preventive care without copays violates a federal religious freedom law.

In a boost for the health law, though, North Carolina has become the 40th state to expand the Medicaid program to lower-income people who were previously ineligible. Even though the federal government will pay 90% of the cost of expansion, a broad swath of states — mostly in the South — have resisted widening eligibility for the program.

This week’s panelists are Julie Rovner of KHN, Alice Miranda Ollstein of Politico, Rachel Cohrs of Stat, and Sandhya Raman of CQ Roll Call.

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Alice Miranda Ollstein
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Sandhya Raman
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Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:

• Thursday’s decision out of Texas affects health plans nationwide and is expected to disrupt the health insurance market, which for years has provided preventive care without cost sharing under the ACA. Even if the decision survives a likely appeal, insurers could continue offering the popular, generally not-so-costly benefits, but they would no longer be required to do so.
• The decision, which found that the U.S. Preventive Services Task Force cannot mandate coverage requirements, hinges on religious freedom objections to plans covering PrEP, the HIV medication, alongside other preventive care.
• Speaking of the ACA, this week North Carolina became the latest state to expand Medicaid coverage under the health law, which will render an estimated 600,000 residents newly eligible for the program. The development comes amid reports about hospitals struggling to cover uncompensated care, particularly in the 10 states that have resisted expanding Medicaid.
• Pushback against Medicaid expansion has contributed over the years to a yawning coverage divide between politically “blue” and “red” states, with liberal-leaning states pushing to cover more services and people, while conservative-leaning states home in on policies that limit coverage, like work requirements.
• On the abortion front, state attorneys general are challenging the FDA’s authority on the abortion pill — not only in Texas, but also in Washington state, where Democratic state officials are fighting the FDA’s existing restrictions on prescribing and dispensing the drug. The Biden administration has adopted a similar argument as it has in the Texas case challenging the agency’s original approval of the abortion pill: Let the FDA do its job and impose restrictions it deems appropriate, the administration says.
• The FDA is poised to make a long-awaited decision on an over-the-counter birth control pill, an option already available in other countries. One key unknown, though, is whether the agency would impose age restrictions on access to it.
• And as of this week, 160 Defense Department promotions have stalled over one Republican senator’s objections to a Pentagon policy regarding federal payments to service members traveling to obtain abortions.

Plus, for “extra credit,” the panelists suggest health policy stories they read this week that they think you should read, too:

Julie Rovner: New York Magazine/The Cut’s “Abortion Wins Elections: The Fight to Make Reproductive Rights the Centerpiece of the Democratic Party’s 2024 Agenda,” by Rebecca Traister.

Alice Miranda Ollstein: Stat’s “How the Drug Industry Uses Fear of Fentanyl to Extract More Profit From Naloxone,” by Lev Facher.

Rachel Cohrs: The Washington Post’s “These Women Survived Combat. Then They Had to Fight for Health Care,” by Hope Hodge Seck.

Sandhya Raman: Capital B’s “What the Covid-19 Pandemic and Mpox Outbreak Taught Us About Reducing Health Disparities,” by Margo Snipe and Kenya Hunter.

Also mentioned in this week’s podcast:

• The New York Times’ “‘We’re Going Away’: A State’s Choice to Forgo Medicaid Funds Is Killing Hospitals,” by Sharon LaFraniere.
• KHN’s “Fresh Produce Is an Increasingly Popular Prescription for Chronically Ill Patients,” by Carly Graf.
• California Healthline’s “Prescription for Housing? California Wants Medicaid to Cover 6 Months of Rent,” by Angela Hart.

click to open the transcript

Transcript: A Judicial Body Blow to the ACA

KHN’s ‘What the Health?’Episode Title: A Judicial Body Blow to the ACAEpisode Number: 291Published: March 30, 2023

[Editor’s note: This transcript, generated using transcription software, has been edited for style and clarity.]

Julie Rovner: Hello and welcome back to KHN’s “What the Health?” I’m Julie Rovner, chief Washington correspondent at Kaiser Health News. And I’m joined by some of the best and smartest health reporters in Washington. We’re taping this week on Thursday, March 30, at 11 a.m. As always, news happens fast, and things might have changed by the time you hear this. So here we go. Today we are joined via video conference by Alice Miranda Ollstein of Politico.

Alice Miranda Ollstein: Good morning.

Rovner: Sandhya Raman of CQ Roll Call.

Sandhya Raman: Good morning.

Rovner: And happy birthday to you.

Raman: Thank you.

Rovner: And Rachel Cohrs of Stat News.

Rachel Cohrs: Hi, everybody.

Rovner: We’ve got breaking news, so we will get right to it. In Texas, we’ve got a major decision from a federal judge with national implications. No, not the abortion pill case — that is still out there. This time, Judge Reed O’Connor has ruled that the Affordable Care Act can’t require coverage of preventive services recommended by the [U.S.] Preventive Services Task Force because the PSTF, as an independent advisory board, can’t legally mandate anything. This case was specifically — although it was about a lot of things — but it was mostly about employers who didn’t want to cover preexposure prophylaxis [PrEP] for people at high risk of HIV because it violated their religious beliefs. And if the name Reed O’Connor sounds familiar, that’s because he’s the same judge who ruled in 2018 that the entire Affordable Care Act was unconstitutional, a finding that wasn’t formally overturned until it got to the Supreme Court. Alice, you’ve been following this case. What happens now?

Ollstein: I’m expecting the Biden administration to appeal at lightning speed, although that appeal will go to the 5th Circuit, which is very right-leaning. It’s ruled to chip away at the Affordable Care Act in the past. So who really knows what will happen there? But yeah, this is really huge. This is saying that this board that has decided what services insurance companies have to cover for free, with no cost sharing, going all the way back to 2010 is not constitutional, and thus what they say can’t be enforced. And so this throws the insurance market into a bit of chaos.

Rovner: Yeah, although one would think that it wouldn’t affect this year’s policies — I mean, for people who are going to be worried that all of a sudden, you know, oh my God, I scheduled my mammogram and now my insurer might not pay for it. It’s not going to be that immediate, right?

Ollstein: We’re not expecting that. I mean, we’re expecting the Biden administration to ask for courts to stay the impact of the ruling until further arguments and appeals can be made. But we really don’t know at this point. And I will say, you know, I’ve seen some misinformation out there about how the ruling deals with contraception. They do not block the contraception mandate. That is related to this case, but the court did not accept that part of the challengers’ claims.

Rovner: Yeah, we should say there are a bunch of different claims and the judge only accepted a couple of them. It could have been even broader. But, you know, unlike the previous Affordable Care Act cases, this one doesn’t threaten the entire law, but it does threaten one of the law’s most popular pieces, those requirements that plans cover preventive care that’s been shown to be cost-effective. This could be an uncomfortable case for the Supreme Court, assuming it gets there, couldn’t it?

Cohrs: It could be an uncomfortable case for the Supreme Court, but it’s also uncomfortable for insurers, too, who’ve promised this. People have come to expect it. And if it is cost-effective, I mean, certainly there may be plans that, you know, make choices to restrict coverage or impose some cost sharing. If this stands, if this is applied nationwide — again, very big ifs at this point — but if these really are cost-effective, then it’s kind of an open question what insurers will choose to do, because obviously they want people to enroll in their plans as well.

Rovner: Yeah, I was going to say, I could see insurers sort of deciding as a group that we’re going to keep providing this stuff, as you say, Rachel, because they want, you know, they want to attract customers, because for the most part it’s not that expensive. I mean, obviously, you know, things like colonoscopies can run into the thousands of dollars, but a lot of these things are, if not de minimis, then just not very expensive. And, as I mentioned, they’re very popular. So it’s possible that, even though they may strike down the mandate, there won’t be as much of an impact from this as some people are saying. But, as Alice points out, we don’t really know anything at this point.

Ollstein: And I think some of the concern is the kind of risk-pool sorting we used to see, you know. So the challengers said that their right to purchase insurance that doesn’t cover certain things was being infringed upon. And so if insurers start to create separate plans, some of which cover all kinds of preventive care, including sexual health care, and separate ones that don’t, and people who don’t think they need a lot of stuff, you know, sort themselves into some plans and not others, you can see that reflected in premiums that could lead to some of the major pre-ACA problems we used to see.

Rovner: If the idea that somebody doesn’t like something and therefore can’t buy something without it, you can see that leading to all kinds of problems down the line about people saying, well, “I don’t like that drugstores sell condoms, so therefore I should be able to go to a drugstore that doesn’t sell condoms,” although that’s not a mandate. But you can see that this could stretch very far with people’s religious beliefs. And indeed, the basis of this claim is that this violated the Religious Freedom Restoration Act. That’s one of the things that Judge O’Connor found, and that could be taken to quite the extreme, I imagine.

Ollstein: Right. I mean, they weren’t required to actually purchase PrEP. They weren’t required to use it. They weren’t required to prescribe it. Just the insurance company was required to cover it along with everything else they cover. And the folks said even purchasing insurance that had that as one of the things it could conceivably cover violated their religious rights.

Rovner: Yes. And this goes back to the contraceptive cases, where the religious organization said that, you know, by having birth control in their plans, it made them complicit in something that they thought was a sin. And that’s exactly what’s being stressed here, even among the individual plaintiffs: that having to buy insurance that has these benefits, even if they don’t use them, makes them complicit in, basically, sex outside of marriage. I mean, that’s what’s in the decision. It’s quite a reach. I’ll be interested to see, as this goes up, what people think of it. So, before we got Judge O’Connor’s opinion, what I thought would be the biggest news of the week comes from North Carolina, which on Monday became the 40th state to expand Medicaid under the Affordable Care Act, to cover people with incomes up to 138% of poverty. That’s about $20,000 in 2023. Well, it’s almost there. The newly eligible 600,000 people won’t be able to sign up until the legislature approves a budget, which is likely later this spring. North Carolina expanding the program leaves only a swath of states across the South, including Florida, Georgia, and Texas, and a couple in the Great Plains as still holding out on a 90% federal match. Is anyone else on the horizon or is this going to be it for a while?

Raman: I think one thing to note about how this is happening is that North Carolina was able to do this finally through the legislature after like a yearslong process. And it has been increasingly rare for this to happen through the legislature. The last time was Virginia, in 2018, but every other state that has done it in recent years has all been through ballot initiative and going that route. And the 10 holdouts that we have, you know, we have Republican-controlled legislatures who’ve been pretty against doing this. So I think if any of those states were to be able to do that at this point that haven’t been tempted by, you know, any of the incentives … [unintelligible] … get a higher match rate or anything like that, it would have to be through the ballot, which is already a difficult process, can take years. There have been various roadblocks to push back and even some of the states in the past that have been able to get it through ballot initiative — some of the legislatures afterwards have tried to like push back on it — when we saw with Utah a few years ago, where even if the voters had voted that they wanted to expand, they wanted to kind of pull it back.

Rovner: We thought in Maine, where the governor blocked it until basically he was out of office.

Raman: Yeah.

Ollstein: And in Missouri, where they just refused to fund it.

Raman: Yeah, so I think that’ll be definitely something to watch with how the budget goes in the next few months. But I guess, at least with North Carolina, this was something that was bipartisan. It was spearheaded in the legislature by Republicans, so I think they might not have the same issues there than Missouri, but it’s a tough haul to get the remaining 10 at this point after this many years.

Rovner: Yeah, I feel like North Carolina is much more like Virginia, which is that, finally, after a lot of wearing down, the Republican legislature and the Democratic governor were able to come to some kind of agreement. That’s what happened in Virginia. And that seems to be what’s happened here in North Carolina. Meanwhile, in those 10 states, hospitals which end up providing free care to people who can’t pay aren’t doing so well. In Florida, the state’s hospital association has been all but begging the state government to expand Medicaid pretty much since it was available to them, which is now going on 13 years. According to the American Hospital Association, 74% of rural hospital closures around the country took place in states that have not expanded Medicaid or where expansion had been in place for less than a year. And the New York Times has a story this week about the toll that that lack of insurance is taking — I’m sorry — and the New York Times has a story this week about the toll that lack of insurance for the working poor is taking there, not just on the state’s hospitals, but on the health of the state’s population. Lawmakers in these states are very happy to take federal money for all manner of things. What is it about this Medicaid expansion that’s making them say, “No, no, no”?

Raman: This was something that came up this week in the House. Appropriations’ Labor, HHS, Education Subcommittee had a hearing this week specifically on rural communities and some of the issues they face. And Medicaid expansion obviously did come up with some of the witnesses and some of the lawmakers as something that would be helpful given the number of hospital closures they’ve seen, and there might only be one health care facility for miles or in a county, and just how it would be helping them to kind of relieve paying for the uncompensated care that they’re already dealing with, you know, highlighted a number of the issues there. So it’s something that comes up, but I think one of the pushbacks that we saw was, you know, again, that it is a) tied to the Affordable Care Act, which has been such a partisan back-and-forth since its inception, and then b) just the messaging has always been about the cost. I mean, even if the general consensus is that it does save money over time for taking care of that care, something that came up was why states get more of a reimbursement for expansion than they do for traditional Medicaid. That was brought up a couple times, things like that. And so I think it’s hard to get some of those folks on board just because of how partisan it has become.

Rovner: Yeah, I remember I watched the hearing in Wyoming on this last year. They didn’t want to do it, it seemed, more for ideology. I mean, a lot of states that are doing this, you know, you can levy a tax on hospitals and nursing homes, who are happy to pay the tax because they’re now getting paid for these patients who couldn’t pay. And the state’s really not out-of-pocket, as it were, at all. But and yet, as we point out, these last 10 states, including some of the really big ones, have yet to actually succumb to this. Well, while we are talking about Medicaid, there have been a couple of interesting stories from my KHN colleagues in the past few weeks about so-called social determinants of health, those not strictly medical interventions that have a big impact on how sick or healthy people are. In California, Democratic Gov. Gavin Newsom wants to use Medicaid to pay for six months of rent or temporary housing for homeless people. And in Montana, health professionals can now prescribe vouchers for fruit and vegetables for patients with little access to fresh food. Is this the wave of the future, or will those who want to shrink rather than expand the welfare state and government in general roll programs like these back?

Cohrs: I think there certainly is a trend, a lot of momentum behind the idea of food as medicine and, you know, moving away and exploring some of these non-medication treatments or some of these underlying reasons why people do have health issues. I think certainly support for the Medicaid program is going to be a hot-button issue in D.C. over the next few months, but there is a lot that states can do on their own as well. And I know states have, you know, programs to kind of cover people that fall between the cracks of traditional insurance programs. California has a robust program for that, the local levels as well. So I think there may be ways to get around that, even if we do see some more restrictions. And again, the administration is Democratic at this point, so I think they may be friendlier to some of these innovations than prior ones, and that could change at any time. But this certainly isn’t something that’s going to go away.

Rovner: I wonder if we’re going to end up with blue states having all of these more robust pro — I mean, we already have blue states with more robust programs, but blue states having these more inclusive programs and red states not. Alice, you’re nodding.

Ollstein: Absolutely. And that’s been the trend for a while, but it could even accelerate now, I think, and you’re seeing that on both sides, with blue states looking to cover more and more things; also looking to cover more and more people, including undocumented people. That’s another trend in Medicaid. At the same time, you have red states that have long explored how to cover fewer and fewer, you know, trying to change the income eligibility threshold for expanded Medicaid, trying to do work requirements, trying to do, like, other restrictions. And so I think the patchwork and the divide is only going to continue.

Rovner: Well, moving on to abortion this week, we are still waiting, as I said, for that other decision out of Texas that could impact the future of the abortion pill mifepristone. But Alice, there’s another case at the other end of the country that could have something to say about the Texas case. What’s going on in Washington state?

Ollstein: This one has really flown under the radar. So this is an interesting situation where the same — a lot of the same Democratic attorneys general who were siding with the Biden administration in the Texas case are challenging the Biden administration in a different case in Washington state, basically saying that the remaining federal restrictions on abortion pills — mainly that providers have to get certified in order to prescribe the drugs or dispense them — saying that that should be tossed out, that it’s not supported by medicine and science. And so it’s interesting because you have the Biden administration fighting back against an effort to make the pills more accessible, which is not what a lot of people expect. It goes sort of against their rhetoric in recent months; they’ve talked about wanting to make the pills more accessible and they’re opposing an effort that would do that. But it is somewhat consistent with their position in the Texas case, which is, they’re saying, “Look, this is the FDA’s job. Let the FDA do its job. The FDA has a process, came up with these rules, got rid of some, kept others, and you outside folks don’t have the right to challenge and overturn it.”

Rovner: So what happens if the judges in both of these cases find for the plaintiffs, which would be kind of, but not completely, conflicting?

Ollstein: Yeah, so the Washington state case could just apply to the dozen states that are part of the challenge. And so you could have, again, more of a patchwork in which the abortion pills become even more accessible in those blue states and even less accessible in other states. You could also have these competing rulings that ultimately trigger Supreme Court review.

Rovner: Yeah, it’s not exactly a circuit split because it wouldn’t be opposite decisions on the same case; they’re different cases here. But as you point out, it’s really a case challenging the authority of the FDA to do what the FDA does. So it’s going to be really interesting to watch how this all plays out. While the future of mifepristone remains in doubt, the FDA is going to consider making at least one birth control pill over the counter. We know that morning-after pills, which are high doses of regular birth control pills, are already available without a prescription. So why hasn’t there been an over-the-counter birth control pill until now?

Ollstein: Everything concerning birth control, emergency contraception, abortion, it just — these fights drag on for years and years and years. So finally, we seem to be on the cusp of having a decision on this. It’s expected, from most people I’ve talked to, that they will approve this over-the-counter birth control. There’s a lot of data from around the world. A lot of other countries already have this. And one key unknown is whether the FDA will maintain an age restriction on it. A lot of progressive advocates do not want an age restriction because they think that this is important to help teens prevent unwanted pregnancies. And I think that’s going to be a big piece of the fight that I’m watching.

Rovner: And oh, my goodness, it was that age restriction that held up the over-the-counter morning-after pill for years. That was like a 13-year process to get that over the counter. It went on and on and on, and I covered it. All right. Well, there is abortion-related action on Capitol Hill too this week. We’ve got a potential abortion standoff brewing in the Senate over reproductive health policy at the Department of Defense. Who wants to talk about that one?

Raman: This one has been, I think, really interesting, since we’re all health reporters. And it’s been really something that I think my defense colleagues have been following so closely. But we have Senator Tuberville, who’s been holding up military nominations because the Pentagon has a policy that allows, you know, service members leave for reproductive care and it covers travel to seek an abortion. And so —

Rovner: Although it still doesn’t pay for the abortion.

Raman: It does not pay for the abortions. It’s for the travel. And so I know that my colleagues have looked at this and how this point, like, both sides have been getting a little frustrated, you know, with even some senators saying, “Hey, I agree that I don’t like this policy, but you need to find another way,” because as of earlier this week 160 promotions have been stalled. And so it’s just been kind of ramping up and holding up a lot of folks for kind of an unusual method.

Rovner: Yeah, and the defense secretary saying, I mean, this threatens national security because these are promotions — are important promotions. Flag officers, these are not, you know, just sort of — they’re routine, but they’re, you know, but if they don’t happen, if they get stalled, it’s a problem. In all of my years of seeing anti-abortion senators hold up things, this is not one I have seen before. It’s at least — it’s sort of new and imaginative, and I guess we will see how that plays out. Back in the states, though, it seems that the efforts to restrict reproductive rights are getting very extreme, very fast. Yes, the Oklahoma Supreme Court ruled earlier this month that a pregnant woman does have a right to an abortion when continuing the pregnancy threatens her life. But four of the nine justices there didn’t even want to go that far, suggesting that the legislature has the right to basically require saving the fetus even at the cost of the pregnant person’s life. In Texas, a lawsuit in which the ex-husband is suing the friend of his ex-wife for the wrongful death of his child for helping her get abortion medication is setting the stage for the so-called personhood debate: the idea that a new person with full legal right is created upon fertilization of an egg by sperm. Over the past few decades, several states have rejected personhood ballot measures as a bridge too far. But it feels like all bets are off now. I mean, it’s sort of like a race to see who can be the most extreme state.

Ollstein: I think the trends are revealing some interesting things. I mean, one, anti-abortion folks are well aware that people are still getting abortions, mainly in one of two ways: either traveling out of state or ordering pills online and taking them at home, both of which are very difficult to enforce and stop. And so there’s just a lot of, like, throwing spaghetti against the wall and seeing what sticks, in terms of, can we actually criminalize either of those things? If so, how is it enforced, or does it even need to be enforced? Or is just the fear and the chilling effect enough? I mean, we definitely see that. We definitely see medical providers holding off on doing even perfectly legal things because of fear and the chilling effect. And so there’s just a lot of experimentation at the state level right now.

Rovner: Yeah, I forgot to mention Idaho, where the legislature introduced a bill that would make it a crime — that creates abortion trafficking as a crime — for someone to take a minor, it’s not really across state lines, because the state can’t do that, so it’s like taking the minor to the border in an effort to cross state lines to get an abortion. There was, for many years in the late 1990s and early 2000s, something called the Child Custody Protection Act in Congress, because they needed that for the interstate part of it, that would make it a crime to take a minor across state lines in violation of the home state’s parental involvement laws. It passed both the House and the Senate at various times. It never became law. It’s been introduced recently, but nobody’s tried to take it up recently. I wouldn’t be surprised to see that come back up, too. But it really does seem that every day there’s another bill in another state legislature that says — after all the claims of the anti-abortion movement for decades, that we don’t want to punish the women, we only want to punish the providers — that’s gone out the window, right?

Raman: I guess I would add that, you know, we’re seeing a lot of this activity now. But something that I keep in mind is that a) it’s gotten a lot harder to know what’s going to, you know, using the spaghetti metaphor that Alice did, like what will stick. So there’s just a lot more flurry of action. And then I feel like I see increasingly, you know, people, since they don’t know that, just like fixating a lot on various things, just because you don’t know. I think, you know, even a few years ago, there were a lot of things that would have one sponsor or two sponsors and have no chance of going anywhere, as most bills introduced anywhere do. But now, a) a lot of these things are moving very, very quickly in the legislature, and b) since we don’t know, it’s hard to know where to kind of focus, even to some of the experts that I’ve talked to, where it’s just, “We’re not sure.” So just be aware of all of these things in various places because of kind of that uncertainty.

Rovner: Yeah, I know I’m generally loath to talk about bills that got introduced either in Congress or in state legislatures, because I think it unnecessarily creates expectations that for the most part don’t happen. But as both of you say, some of these things are happening so fast that, if you mention them one week, they’re law by the next week. So we will see as this continues to move quickly. All right. That’s the news for this week. Now it is time for our extra credit segment. That’s when we each recommend a story we read this week we think you should read too. As always, don’t worry if you miss it. We will post the links on the podcast page at khn.org and in our show notes on your phone or other mobile device. Rachel, why don’t you go first this week?

Cohrs: All right. So my story is from the Washington Post, and the headline is “These Women Survived Combat. Then They Had to Fight for Health Care,” by Hope Hodge Seck. And I thought it was just a really great feature on this very niche issue. And I think veterans’ kind of health care overall just doesn’t get as much coverage as it should, and —

Rovner: Particularly women’s veteran’s health care.

Cohrs: Exactly. Yes. And so these women were essentially going into combat situations to help relations with women in very conservative cultures, and they were exposed to the grenade blasts and a lot of these combat situations. But then their health care coverage upon returning wasn’t covered. And there is kind of a new bill with some momentum behind it that is trying to plug that loophole. So, yeah, I thought it was a very great feature on an issue that’s undercovered.

Rovner: Yeah, this was something I knew nothing about until I read this story. Alice?

Ollstein: I chose a piece by Rachel’s colleague at Stat, Lev Facher, called “How the Drug Industry Uses Fear of Fentanyl to Extract More Profit From Naloxone.” And this is really timely, with the approval this week of over-the-counter opioid-overdose-reverse medication. And basically it’s about how these drug companies are coming up with new forms of the drug, really huge doses, new delivery forms, injectables, and nasal sprays, and stuff that are not really justified by science and are sort of just an opportunity for more profit because the basic form of the drug that works extremely well and is very affordable, they are basically hyping the fear of fentanyl to try to push these stronger products they’re coming up with. And the fear is that municipal governments that have limited resources are going to spend their money on those not really justified new forms and get fewer medication for everyone than just using the basic stuff that we know works.

Rovner: Indeed. Sandhya?

Raman: My extra credit is from Margo Snipe and Kenya Hunter at Capital B, and it’s called “What the Covid-19 Pandemic and Mpox Outbreak Taught Us About Reducing Health Disparities.” And I thought this was an interesting look that they did, highlighting how, you know, there’s been a lot more talk about the various health inequities among, you know, racial and ethnic and sexual minority communities after these two pandemics have started. And they look at how some of the targeted efforts have narrowed some of the gaps in things like vaccines, but just how some of these lessons can be used to address other health disparities, you know, things like community outreach and expanding types of screenings and how many languages public health information is translated into and things like that. So, it’s a good read.

Rovner: Well, my extra credit this week is a long read, a very long read, by Rebecca Traister in New York Magazine, called “Abortion Wins Elections: The Fight to Make Reproductive Rights the Centerpiece of the Democratic Party’s 2024 Agenda.” And while I’m not sure I’m buying everything that she’s selling here, this is an incredibly thorough and interesting look at the past, present, and possibly future of the abortion rights movement at the national, state, and local levels. If you are truly interested in this subject, it’s well worth the half hour or so of your time that it takes to get through the entire thing. It’s a really, really good piece. OK, that is our show for this week. As always, if you enjoyed the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left us a review; that helps other people find us too. Special thanks, as always, to our ever-patient producer, Francis Ying. Also, as always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org. Or you can tweet me still. I’m @jrovner. Alice?

Ollstein: @AliceOllstein.

Rovner: Rachel?

Cohrs: @rachelcohrs.

Rovner: Sandhya?

Raman: @SandhyaWrites.

Rovner: We will be back in your feed next week. Until then, be healthy.

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