The Host

Julie Rovner
KFF Health News

@jrovner

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Julie Rovner is chief Washington correspondent and host of KFF Health News’ weekly health policy news podcast, “What the Health?” A noted expert on health policy issues, Julie is the author of the critically praised reference book “Health Care Politics and Policy A to Z,” now in its third edition.

As House Republicans struggle — again — to decide who will lead them, the clock is ticking on a short-term spending bill that keeps the federal government running only until mid-November. The turn of the fiscal year has also left key health programs in limbo, including the one that provides international aid to combat HIV and AIDS.

Meanwhile, a major investigation by The Washington Post into why U.S. life expectancy is declining found that the reasons, while many and varied, tend to point to a lesser emphasis on public health here than in many peer nations.

This week’s panelists are Julie Rovner of KFF Health News, Sarah Karlin-Smith of the Pink Sheet, Victoria Knight of Axios, and Lauren Weber of The Washington Post.

Panelists

Sarah Karlin-Smith
Pink Sheet

@SarahKarlin

Read Sarah's stories

Victoria Knight
Axios

@victoriaregisk

Read Victoria's stories

Lauren Weber
The Washington Post

@LaurenWeberHP

Read Lauren's stories

Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:

• House Republicans are choosing a new speaker with government funding still uncertain beyond Nov. 17. But some programs are already experiencing a lapse in their congressional authorizations, notably the global HIV/AIDS program known as PEPFAR — and the problems in renewing it are sending a troubling signal to the world about the United States’ commitment to a program credited with saving millions of lives.
• Drug companies have entered into agreements with federal health officials for new Medicare price negotiations even as many of them challenge the process in court. Early signals from one conservative federal judge indicate the courts may not be sympathetic to the notion that drug companies are being compelled to participate in the negotiations.
• Kaiser Permanente health system employees and pharmacists with major chains are among the American health care workers on strike. What do the labor strikes have in common? The outcry from workers over how staffing shortages are endangering patients, leaving overwhelmed medical personnel to manage seemingly impossible workloads.
• Elsewhere in the nation, new covid-19 vaccines are proving difficult to come by, particularly for young kids. Officials point to this being the first time the vaccines are being distributed and paid for by the private sector, rather than the federal government.
• Reporting shows those getting kicked off Medicaid are struggling to transition to coverage through the Affordable Care Act exchanges, even though many are eligible.

Also this week, Rovner interviews physician-author-novelist Samuel Shem, whose landmark satirical novel, “The House of God,” shook up medical training in the late 1970s. Shem’s new book, “Our Hospital,” paints a grim picture of the state of the American health care workforce in the age of covid.

Plus, for “extra credit,” the panelists suggest health policy stories they read this week that they think you should read, too: 

Julie Rovner: The Atlantic’s “Virginia Could Decide the Future of the GOP’s Abortion Policy,” by Ronald Brownstein.

Sarah Karlin-Smith: The Wall Street Journal’s “Children Are Dying in Ill-Prepared Emergency Rooms Across America,” by Liz Essley Whyte and Melanie Evans.

Lauren Weber: ProPublica’s “Philips Kept Complaints About Dangerous Breathing Machines Secret While Company Profits Soared,” by Debbie Cenziper, ProPublica; Michael D. Sallah, Michael Korsh, and Evan Robinson-Johnson, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette; and Monica Sager, Northwestern University.

Victoria Knight: KFF Health News’ “Feds Rein In Use of Predictive Software That Limits Care for Medicare Advantage Patients,” by Susan Jaffe.

Also mentioned in this week’s episode:

• The Washington Post’s “Medicaid Rolls Are Being Cut. Few Are Finding Refuge in ACA Plans,” by Amy Goldstein.
• The Washington Post’s “An Epidemic of Chronic Illness Is Killing Us Too Soon,” by Joel Achenbach, Dan Keating, Laurie McGinley, Akilah Johnson, and Jahi Chikwendiu.
• The Washington Post’s “How Red-State Politics Are Shaving Years Off American Lives,” by Lauren Weber, Dan Diamond, and Dan Keating.
• The Washington Post’s “England Considers Raising Smoking Age Until Cigarettes Are Banned Entirely,” by Andrew Jeong.

click to open the transcript

Transcript: Health Funding in Question in a Speaker-Less Congress

KFF Health News’ ‘What the Health?’Episode Title: Health Funding in Question in a Speaker-Less CongressEpisode Number: 318Published: Oct. 12, 2023

[Editor’s note: This transcript was generated using both transcription software and a human’s light touch. It has been edited for style and clarity.]

Julie Rovner: Hello, and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Julie Rovner, chief Washington correspondent for KFF Health News, and I’m joined by some of the best and smartest health reporters in Washington. We’re taping this week on Thursday, Oct. 12, at 10 a.m. As always, news happens fast, and things might’ve changed by the time you hear this, so here we go.

We are joined today via video conference by Victoria Knight of Axios.

Victoria Knight: Good morning.

Rovner: Sarah Karlin-Smith of the Pink Sheet.

Sarah Karlin-Smith: Hi, everybody.

Rovner: And Lauren Weber of The Washington Post.

Lauren Weber: Hello, hello.

Rovner: Later in this episode, we’ll have my interview with doctor-author Samuel Shem, who wrote “House of God,” the seminal novel about medical training, back in the 1970s, and who has a new take on what ails our health care system. But first, the news. So, we’ve been off for a week so KFF could have an all-staff retreat in California, which was lovely, by the way. And against all odds, it’s Oct. 12 and the federal government is not shut down, although the continuing resolution that squeaked through Congress at the very last minute on Sept. 30 expires Nov. 17, so we could be going through all of this again next month.

Meanwhile, conservative Republicans, who were angry that House Speaker Kevin McCarthy agreed to keep the government open, ousted him from his job, the first time ever a speaker has been kicked out mid-Congress, and things are, to put it mildly, in disarray. But I want to go back to that six-week continuing resolution. It does just continue appropriations, but it also had some important, if temporary, authorizing provisions, like for community health centers, right, Victoria?

Knight: Yeah, that’s right. There were a few provisions that just kind of kept it going as it was, funded at the same level. That was community health centers, and there were a few for the Pandemic and All-Hazards Preparedness Act. Then there were also some things that were not renewed in PAHPA, and then also the PEPFAR program [the U.S. President’s Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief], which I figured we might talk about a little bit, which is the program that funds programs in other countries to help with HIV/AIDS treatment and research, and it’s been a long-standing bipartisan program, and it has come up against some obstacles this Congress.

Rovner: Just to remind people who don’t follow this as closely as we do, the appropriations are what actually keep the lights on. Those are the spending bills that Congress has to pass, either in permanent or temporary fashion, at the beginning of the fiscal year, Oct. 1, or things shut down. Things like PEPFAR and community health centers continue to get funded, but their official authorizations expired at the end of the fiscal year. While the community health centers were kept going, PEPFAR has not. Of course, the House, which is, as we speak, still leaderless, can’t really do anything. Are there, at least, negotiations going on? I know PEPFAR really is a bipartisan program, as you say, and there is some effort to keep it going, because some people frankly say it’s embarrassing for the United States to look like it is reneging on this, even though it’s technically not.

Knight: Well, I know it was originally started under a Republican president, George W. Bush, and has always been reauthorized for five-year intervals. That’s never not happened. I’ve talked to members of Congress about this. In the House, they only want to reauthorize it for one year, and they’ve been very open about that’s because they want a new Republican president to come in and further restrict where funding is going, to really, in their mind, ensure it’s not going to abortion funding, even though there’s really no evidence that funding from PEPFAR goes to NGOs [nongovernmental organizations] that fund abortions or anything like that.

Then, in the Senate, it’s a different story. Another little factor is that Sen. Bob Menendez was the lead on this, and then he had to step —

Rovner: Oops.

Knight: He had to step down from his chair of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, and that’s just a matter of Senate rules, since he’s under indictment.

Rovner: Again.

Knight: Again, yes, and so Sen. Ben Cardin just took that chairmanship. I’m not sure how much PEPFAR is on his radar. I tried to ask him about it recently, and he was like, “I’ve got to go to a meeting.” I know for Menendez, it was a really big thing that he cared about and was like, “I want to reauthorize it for five years.” So, as far as I can tell, it’s kind of a standstill between the House and the Senate and, to be determined, but maybe at the end of the year, if we get a big bill, something will be put in there. Maybe they’ll negotiate it to three years. I’ve heard something about that, but again, this will be the first time it hasn’t been reauthorized for five years, and that would send a signal to other countries that maybe the U.S. is not as devoted to treating HIV/AIDS and helping programs in other countries.

Rovner: Yeah, obviously, with everything else going on in the world, it’s not the biggest deal, but there are still a lot of people who are very concerned about it. The other at least somewhat surprising thing that happened on Oct. 1, the beginning of the fiscal year, is that all of the drugmakers responsible for the 10 drugs that Medicare has selected for the first round of price negotiation have agreed to negotiate, at least for now. That’s likely because the first round of the first of several lawsuits in federal court seeking to block the program found in favor of the government. In other words, the program did not get blocked by the courts. But Sarah, this fight is a long way from over, right?

Karlin-Smith: Yeah, there’s a number of lawsuits. I think we might be up to eight now, but don’t hold me to that exact figure.

Rovner: Excel spreadsheets.

Karlin-Smith: Yeah. Even this lawsuit, the initial blow I think was pretty big for the drug industry here, because we have a Trump-appointed judge who made a pretty clear preliminary decision that he doesn’t think the drug industry can make its constitutionality challenges that this law is not constitutional, which I think is a pretty big deal, because most of the initial lawsuits revolved around constitutional challenges. Then, there are other issues, in the first particular case, around whether even the people who are suing have standing or it’s ripe for a lawsuit now, whether because anybody’s actually been harmed at this point. Yet, everybody, all the companies, have entered into agreements with Medicare to negotiate now. A lot of them have said, “Well, we’re doing this, but basically because we have no other choice. We have to. We’re doing it in protest. We’re still continuing our lawsuits.”

So, you can expect two parallel tracks to be going on right now, mostly behind the scenes. This is pretty much going to take a whole year for Medicare and the companies to get to the place where we’ll then see a public negotiated price next fall, next September. And these lawsuits to proceed, again, just I think the constitutionality issue got a really big blow. There are some other lawsuits that I think could be more interesting that are arguing more about decisions Medicare made, so more about APA, Procedures Act, cases, which are a little bit different and I think might have a little bit more chance of getting the drug industry some wins.

Rovner: The APA is the Administrative Procedures Act —

Karlin-Smith: Procedures Act, thank you.

Rovner: — and basically saying that Medicare didn’t follow all of the appropriate rules in how it devised and rolled out the program.

Karlin-Smith: Right, and I think —

Rovner: As opposed to the big lawsuits that said, “You can’t force us to do this,” which, not a lawyer, but every other health provider goes under the if you want to play in Medicare, you have to take our price, so it’s hard to see where the drug companies are going to have something completely different, but that’s just me. You never know.

Karlin-Smith: Right, and this Trump-appointed judge — I keep emphasizing that because they picked the 5th Circuit, they looked for a friendly judge, and they couldn’t get the win there. He said, “Medicare is a voluntary program. The government has stopped forcing you to participate in Medicare. If you don’t like this, you can leave.” I think this is a pretty symbolic loss for the industry and some of these arguments they’re going to make.

That said, these APA cases, you can maybe see them getting more tweaks around the edges to shift the program in ways that favor it, but we know the way litigation works in this country; it’s going to be this long slog to figure out how that shakes out as the program is potentially, again, on the other side, getting worked out and maybe implemented.

Rovner: We will see. All right. Well, elsewhere in disarray, if this was the summer of strikes in Hollywood, it’s shaping up as the autumn of strikes by health workers. Last week, 75,000 workers at Kaiser Permanente — no relation, just for my listeners — in several states walked out for three days. Workers at several other hospitals in and around Los Angeles walked out, and we’re seeing pharmacists taking work actions at both of the big chains, CVS and Walgreens. All of these walkouts have basically the same thing in common. Striking workers say that the shortage of personnel is endangering patients, as those who are left at work face impossible workloads.

These employers are not in a great situation to fix this. Covid accelerated the departure of a lot of healthcare workers, and there simply aren’t the bodies to fill all of these vacant positions. Is there any settlement in sight? Any way to fix any of this that anybody’s proposed?

Weber: I think if any of us sitting at this table have family, friends that work as nurses or pharmacists, they’ve been hearing about these problems for years. I mean, all it takes is talking to somebody that works in this industry to realize that they have been short-staffed and underfunded for a very long time. A lot of them really worry about the actual errors that can result from that. I mean, I think what’s really important to consider is to get to a strike, you have to have a lot of bad things going on. I mean, I think some of the reports say that some of these hospitals have filed countless complaints with the local county health in California that had not gotten listened to about their staffing shortages.

When you have short staffing for nurses, that means that you feel like patients are not getting seen. Something could be happening. They feel like they’re putting these people in jeopardy. I don’t really think there’s going to be a lot of end to this in sight. I think, once you kick off these strikes like this, it’s a bit of a chain effect. I mean, we saw CVS pharmacy employees had a strike, and then Walgreens employees have started doing that.

Frankly, the CVS one was pretty successful. The CVS CEO went out there and said, “Look, we hear your conditions. We’ll work on cutting down hours, and we’ll try and accommodate you.” I think we’re going to be in for a lot more of these in the months to come.

Rovner: Yeah, I mean, it’s one thing if workers — there aren’t enough checkers at the grocery store and you have to stand in line for longer, but it’s quite another thing when you have a nurse in an intensive care unit trying to keep track of six patients instead of three or a pharmacist trying to keep track of basically everything that’s going on with no help. That’s what we’re seeing around the country with these shortages of trained health care workers.

In California, there’s another complication, because they actually have laws about patient-nurse ratios in hospitals, and some of them are not being actually obeyed, so I imagine that this is going to go on. We hear a lot about health care worker shortages. I think this is the worst one that I’ve seen in my career, where there just really aren’t the bodies to meet the demand here.

Well, speaking of things that also aren’t going swimmingly — that seems to be our theme this week — there’s a lot of early demand for the new covid vaccine that was approved in September, and apparently not a lot of supply. Also, as we just discussed, a lot of the responsibility for the vaccine is being pushed to pharmacies, whose already overstretched staff simply don’t have the bandwidth to deliver vaccines in addition to all the drugs that they’re asked to be counting out and prescribing. Sarah, shouldn’t the system have been more ready for this? It’s not like we didn’t know pretty much exactly when this vaccine was going to become available. They’ve been saying mid-September for the last five months.

Karlin-Smith: Right, yeah. I mean, there’s definitely been a lot of criticism, particularly on the health insurance side with the codes and things not being set up to put it in. It’s less clear exactly what has gone wrong in the supply chain issue, where there are reports of wholesalers not being able to get supply to the pharmacies. Do you even have enough shots? Lots of people are reporting they have appointments. They get there. They show up. The pharmacist is out.

One thing I’ve been wondering is just there’s been low uptake of boosters in the U.S., and so if it’s been harder for them to predict how much supply they want to have, it’s a bit different when the government is no longer funding those shots. Pharmacies, doctor’s offices have been concerned. What if they buy more than they end up using? Are they out money? I know, in some cases, some of the companies have made some concessions and said, “We will take back unused product,” and so forth, because there’s just different financial considerations that I think are impacting how much supply is on hand at different times right now.

Rovner: And, of course, it’s even worse for kids, right? Because kids can’t go, generally, to the pharmacies to get their vaccines.

Karlin-Smith: Right. Most of the country, to get a vaccine by a pharmacist, you have to be at least 3. It varies a little bit by state and so forth. A lot of pediatricians’ offices don’t have these shots. One of the reasons it seems to be is that, again, these wholesalers who ship the supply around the country have prioritized adult vaccinations. I know, personally, my pediatrician’s office still does not have a shot, as well.

Rovner: And you have two little ones, right?

Karlin-Smith: Right. Again, I have one under 3, and I looked into vaccines.gov the other day to see what would they tell me if I put in for an under-3-year-old. There was one pharmacy in all of D.C. that claimed they would vaccinate someone under 3 for covid, which, I haven’t done the legwork yet to see if that’s actually correct, but, you know, you’re hearing these reports of people traveling really far to get pediatric shots. Again, just to emphasize that there are babies being born all the time who, when they turn 6 months, they are getting their first covid shot, right? They have not, hopefully they haven’t, had covid. You want them protected before they get exposed, so that’s a really crucial gap in the health system that I think people don’t appreciate, because a lot of people are just thinking now, well, oh everybody’s had covid or had two or three shots, and this is a particularly vulnerable population that’s having trouble finding vaccines right now.

Rovner: Yet, I mean, considering it’s very early in the respiratory disease season, there seems to be a lot of covid going around right now, which I suspect is why there’s such a demand, at least among the people who are most concerned about getting the vaccine, for getting the vaccine. It feels like it did at the beginning, when it’s like suddenly there’s this big rush of people at the beginning who want it. Eventually, there’ll probably be more vaccine than is needed, but for right now, I mean, I’m seeing lots and lots and lots of stories and anecdotes and everything about people, as you say, making appointments, showing up, and having the pharmacy saying, “Oops, we didn’t get our supply.”

Karlin-Smith: I mean, there’s been this sort of hope and narrative that covid, is it going to become seasonal in the way we think of flu, where there’s generally a more clear, defined season? You can kind of make a good guess that the best time to get your flu shot is in October and know you’ll be protected all flu season. As much as we hope that’s the case with covid and eventually becomes the case, that’s really not true now. We’ve still had — again, they’re relative maybe compared to some other surges, but we’ve had surges pretty much every summer, so it’s been really difficult. A lot of parents, I think, wanted to get their kids vaccinated before they went back into school and classrooms. If you have little kids, you just know, it becomes a big germ bath, and everybody gets sick.

Rovner: And parents wanted to get themselves vaccinated before their kids went back to school and brought home those germs.

Karlin-Smith: Right, so the timing of it, again, hasn’t been great, for that regard, but I think it is just this difficulty with covid, in that we haven’t had that same predictability of when you might get it during the year, so it is a lot harder to protect yourself.

Rovner: We’ll see how that sorts itself out. Well, keeping with our continuing theme of things that are not going great, let’s talk about the Medicaid unwinding. Our podcast colleague, Amy Goldstein, has a troubling story in The Washington Post about how people whose Medicaid coverage is being canceled but who are eligible for subsidized plans under the Affordable Care Act are in fact having trouble making that transition. Sometimes people are falling through the cracks because states don’t have enough information to know what they’re eligible for or they don’t have the staff to process the transitions.

Sometimes in states like California, people fail to follow up, even when they are given all the information they need. Is this just the inevitable fallout of trying to redetermine the complicated eligibility rules for more than 90 million Americans in a single year, or could something more have been done? I mean, how many times did I hear them say, “It’s OK if you get dropped from Medicaid. We’re going to get you onto your Affordable Care Act plan that’s fully subsidized.” That doesn’t seem to be happening in every state.

Karlin-Smith: I mean, it seemed like, from Amy’s reporting, that there are some states that have connected their Medicaid systems and their exchange sign-ups really closely, and those are going better, but —

Rovner: California, yeah.

Karlin-Smith: Right. Yeah, she mentioned the Medi-Cal system, but then even these states that she calls out as the success stories still have fairly low transition rates. It’s just one of the many examples of our country of having such separate systems and very different bureaucratic processes for sign-up that really hurt people. As we’ve seen with this Medicaid process, a lot of it is just about these paperwork, if you will, call them burdens, that really get people to lose their health insurance and not be covered, so that’s really —

Rovner: I taped a podcast earlier this week aimed at young adults, teaching them how to quote-unquote “adult,” talking about health insurance and open enrollment and how to get signed up. After the Affordable Care Act, there are so many more protections than there were before, and yet it is still unbelievably complicated to try to explain to somebody who’s facing this for the first time. There are just so many possibilities and so many ways. There’s lots of ways to get health insurance, and there’s even more ways to fall through the cracks and not get health insurance. It seems that the more we try to put band-aids on the system, the more confusing it gets to everybody. Maybe I’ve been doing this for too long.

All right, well, finally this week, also in not great news, The Washington Post has published a giant project on declining life expectancy in the United States. It turns out the problem is a lot more complicated than just covid and drug overdoses. Those are the things we’ve been hearing about for a while, although those are indeed a piece of it. Lauren, you were part of the team that put this project together. Tell us the real reasons why Americans aren’t living as long as they used to and aren’t living as long as people in other countries.

Weber: Our team found that income had a big, big part to do with that. The poorest counties in the U.S., compared to the richest counties of the U.S., are doing 6 times worse than they were 40-some years ago, when it comes to life expectancy. The income gap has increased, obviously, but not nearly as much as the life expectancy gap has increased. I think that says something about the U.S.

In general, I mean, as you mentioned, a lot of people consider opioids, deaths of despair, to be what’s killing Americans across the country, but they’re really overlooking chronic illness. Our reporting, my reporting with Dan Diamond and Dan Keating and I, we looked at how the politics also play into life expectancy. What we found is that public health initiatives and public health laws, like tobacco laws for tobacco taxes, seat belt laws, and investing in public health, does have a direct correlation to longevity of life.

State politics and state policies and lawmaker decisions can shave years off of Americans’ lives. What we found in our reporting and in our analysis is that that was happening in red states, particularly those in the South and the Midwest. What we did is we compared three counties that ring Lake Erie: Ashtabula, Ohio; Erie County, Pennsylvania; and Chautauqua, New York. These three counties, they’re all pretty down on their luck. Industrially, the jobs have gone. None of these counties is a success story in health, but they’re all across state lines. It’s just very vivid to see how the different tobacco taxes, seat belt laws have resulted in totally different outcomes when it comes to life expectancy. And you could see, even reflected in these counties, the covid death rates tracked the state investments in public health and the state infrastructure in public health.

So, you know, something that our series looks to do is explain why a state like Ohio has the same life expectancy as Slovakia. One in 5 Ohioans won’t make it to 65. That’s a pretty wild stat. I think a lot of people in this country don’t realize that life expectancy, some of these preventable diseases are preventable.

Rovner: Yeah, I mean, I was really taken by the comparison of tobacco taxes. Where the tobacco taxes were the lowest, which I guess was Ohio, the rate of smoking and, surprise, smoking-related diseases was much higher, and therefore life expectancy was much lower. I noticed The Washington Post had yet another story this week, not quite the same, but how Great Britain and some other countries in Europe are trying to effectively ban smoking, not by banning it outright, which will just make it a black market, but by doing it year by year so that the current cohort of people who smoke will be able to continue but as younger people get older, it will become illegal, until eventually, when everybody dies off, smoking will be basically banned in Great Britain. Somehow, I can’t see that ever happening here, but it’s certainly a public health initiative that’s pretty bold.

Weber: It’s pretty bold. It would not happen here. I mean, look, one of the legislators that we talked to in Ohio, who had stopped a lot of the tobacco taxes — Bill Seitz, House floor majority leader for Ohio — he smoked for 50 years before he quit this summer, actually, because he got kidney cancer and lost a kidney, so he stopped smoking. But what he said to us, when we asked him how he felt about having blocked all these tobacco taxes and if he planned to keep doing that, he said, “Well, just because I quit smoking doesn’t mean I’m going to become a smoke Nazi now. People have the liberty and the right to smoke.”

I mean, a lot of what our reporting came down to is this concept of personal freedom and liberty versus public health, looking at the community as a whole. It was really fascinating to dig into some of the interesting dynamics in Ohio, especially because Gov. DeWine, who is a Republican, has been more bold on public health and has tried to push the legislature to consider more of these initiatives, in part because he has a personal story. His daughter died over 30 years ago in a car accident, and so he’s been very aggressive in especially car safety, but really in a lot of public health initiatives because, as he told us, that kind of death clarifies things for you when it comes to tipping the scales for people’s loved ones. We’ll see that dynamic play out across the U.S., but it is fascinating to examine how tobacco is very much with us. I mean, 20% of Ohioans smoke. I mean, this is not — I think a lot of people consider opioids and these things to still be the new thing to focus on, but tobacco cessation is still very much a fight happening across the country.

Rovner: It’s interesting to me that it’s not just — I mean, the shorthand is red versus blue, but it’s not really just red versus blue because, as you point out, Gov. DeWine’s a Republican, fairly conservative Republican. Before him, Gov. Kasich, also fairly conservative, or used to be considered a fairly conservative Republican. I mean, it’s really about being pro-public health or anti-public health. It gets us back to PEPFAR, right? Victoria, in the early 2000s, Republicans were very pro-public health. Newt Gingrich led the charge to double the funding at the National Institutes of Health. And these days, what you have are very conservative Republicans who apparently don’t believe in public health or in science.

Knight: I was going to say, I think what this series does so well is it emphasizes that so much of our challenges in the U.S. with health is not about the medical system of health; it is the things that we sometimes don’t even think about as health care, not even just public health, but the economic practices, our labor practices, our housing, our food system, that actually these are some of the main things that end up impacting who is living longer and healthier, and so forth. I actually did an interview with an outgoing pharma lobbyist this week, and she was saying — she mentioned chronic diseases, which was a big part of Lauren’s story, and saying, “We actually have more problems with chronic disease now than we did when I started, even though now we have all these cheap, generic medicines for, you know, we have statins and blood thinners and a lot of diabetes medicines that are generic and all these things.” Yes, we have problems with people accessing this medical system and affording it in the U.S., and that’s a big thing, but a lot of this is starting way before you get to the hospital and the doctor’s office, and the U.S. has all these amazing technologies, but we’re failing on these much more basic solutions to keeping people healthy and alive.

Rovner: It’s also not just physical access to health care. I mean, Ohio’s the home of the Cleveland Clinic, for heaven’s sakes, one of the major health care providers in the country. Many parts of Ohio are pretty rural, but it’s not like people have to drive hundreds of miles to get health care. I mean, this whole public health issue is not simply a matter of people can’t get to the doctor, the way we have concerns about that in places like Texas and the Far West. I mean, it really is just these everyday things, whether you wear your seat belt, whether you start smoking. I think it kind of shined a light on actual public health and the importance of public health to life expectancy.

Knight: I think, also, just going back to the politics of it for one second, I mean, I think the result of some of this is just the increased polarization between the two parties, and Republicans also, I think, were really mad about some decisions made during covid, and so we’re also seeing that where they’re, at the state and local level, wanting to strip money from public health departments, as Lauren has reported on at KFF Health News and the Post, and then that’s also, you’re seeing that in Congress as well, now, where they’re not wanting — they’re angry at some of these decisions made, and they want to strip funding from the CDC. They want to strip it from the NIH. We don’t know how the appropriations bills are going to end up, but it’s definitely something that they’re talking about in the House, at least, which is in Republican control.

Karlin-Smith: Everybody I talk to about anti-vaccine sentiment, they say once these sort of sentiments become aligned with your political identity, it makes it so much harder to shift course, so again, this idea that there’s political alignment around how we think about public health is just seen as so problematic because of how people see their identities. It becomes much harder to change people’s opinions when it’s tied into your politics like that.

Weber: Yeah, and I just wanted to highlight, so one of the folks I met in Ashtabula, Ohio, was Mike Czup, who was a funeral home owner, who was 52 years old. What he told me is that a quarter of the people he buries are younger than him. I mean, that’s just a wild statistic; a quarter of the people he buries are younger than him. Honestly, he wasn’t even surprised. I mean, that was just the norm. That was the way of life. I think that’s what this series shines a light on is that people across the U.S. just assume that lung cancer, heart attack, stroke — that’s just what happens. But that’s not the case across the world. It doesn’t have to be the case, and in certain states it’s not the case. California has much better life expectancy than Ohio does, despite them both being on a very similar trajectory in the ’90s. It’s pretty stark findings.

Rovner: Yeah, it’s a really, really, really good series. We will link to it on the podcast page. All right, well, that is this week’s news. Now we will play my interview with Sam Shem, physician, author, and playwright, and then we will come back and do our extra credits for this week.

I am honored to welcome to the podcast Samuel Shem — not his real name, by the way. Dr. Shem shook up the world of medical training back in 1978, when he wrote a groundbreaking novel about his first year as a medical resident, called “House of God.” It was funny and sad and painted an altogether not very pretty picture of medical training in Boston at some of the nation’s most esteemed hospitals and medical schools.

He has spent most of the past five decades crusading, if I can use that verb, to “put the human back in health care.” Fun fact: My mom interviewed him for The Washington Post in 1985. Now Shem has a new novel called “Our Hospital.” It paints a funny and sad picture of the state of medical practice and the state of the American patient in the era of covid. It’s actually the fourth and final volume of his irreverent evaluation of the U.S. health care system. I spoke to Dr. Shem from his home office in upstate New York and started by asking him why he wanted to write a novel about covid.

Samuel Shem: I don’t know how much longer I’m going to be able to write. Nobody does, really. What I did is I said, “Someone has to write about what’s going on in a hospital, and we have to now talk about nurses.” I haven’t put them at the forefront until now, because they have done so incredibly much. I’m taking all the other books, the “House of God” books and others, and I’m bringing them all together like a family. I don’t have a big family, so I’m absolutely doing this with care and vehemence and also a lot of skill in shifting gears, so go read it.

Rovner: I sort of approached this with trepidation, because who wants to read a novel about covid? But, in the end, it’s a pretty optimistic book about what the future of medicine can be, which, forgive me, feels odd for a novel about covid and the possible end of democracy. Are you really that optimistic about America’s ability to cure what ails our health care system, or did you just get tired of writing depressing literature about the health care system?

Shem: Well, I am a crazy optimist, because I grew up in a time, like your mother, when things changed. They changed because we got out there and we were in the streets, and it changed. I was partly in the USA and partly on a Rhodes in Oxford. I think we just have to get together and try to stay together. What this book does: The doctors and the nurses come together, and that is an immense force. We can do this. That’s what I think. The best person in the book, that I have ever written, in some ways, were the women nurses.

Rovner: The heroes of this book are all women, doctors and nurses. You’ve obviously been roundly criticized for your portrayal of women in the original “House of God.” Is it just that you wanted to make it up, or do you really think that women are the future of fixing health care?

Shem: The future of anything. My wife, Janet Surrey, and I, we worked a lot a long time ago on male-female relationships. Women are a beacon of what men could do in medicine. You’ve got to have some kind of group that can get what we need.

Rovner: You’ve watched the evolution of medical practice in America for half a century now, the amazing advances and depressing depersonalization and corporatization. Which one is winning, at this point?

Shem: Well, both. The money — it’s hard to take money from people with so much money. It’s crazy. It’s insane. There are other models, in Australia and all that stuff. What’s happening, unfortunately, is that doctors are running. They’re saying, “I don’t want to do this anymore.” Sooner or later, with some giant people talking about it — doctors and nurses — it can’t go on. It really can’t go on.

Some of the things that I’m hearing: Doctors, they’re saying, “Well, in two years, I’m gone. I can’t do this anymore.” But we can’t do it alone. I can’t say it so more and more. I mean, I know a lot about this in various different jobs I’ve had. It’s got to be with doctors and nurses.

Rovner: What ties a lot of your writing together is the notion of burnout for medical professionals, which may be, as you mentioned, one of the biggest problems right now in U.S. health care. If you could wave a magic wand, what’s one thing that you could do that could help medical professionals, both doctors and nurses and everybody else who works in medicine, love their work again?

Shem: It’s terrible. Young doctors, they don’t know what to do, you know?

Rovner: I mean, do you worry that people won’t want to go into medicine because it’s now viewed as doctors particularly don’t have the community esteem that they used to? Health workers are in danger sometimes in their own workplaces. It’s not a great situation.

Shem: Yes, I think we became horrified when we went on our first medical school times that we were in the hospital. Right when the kids go into the hospital, it’s obvious. It’s really obvious. They’re seeing the house staff spending 80% in front of a computer to bill, so they can’t help but do it.

The problem is you’ve spent so much money and so much time. What the hell should I do? But there are people who are really paying attention to this. I don’t really do it in person too much, but in everything I say these kinds of things, so I think it might help.

Rovner: You’ve now influenced several generations of medical practitioners. Is there a single lesson that you hope you have imparted on all of them?

Shem: Yes. This is what I start my addresses with. I call it staying human in medicine, the danger of isolation and the healing power of good connection. It’s not I-you; it’s the connection that goes after each of them. What’s good connection? Mutual connection. If it’s not mutual, it’s not that good. If you let me, maybe I could read the very end. Is that all right?

Rovner: Yes, please.

Shem: “I’m with you totally. Almost everyone in medicine is hurting, doctors, nurses, and all the others, working in the money-driven hell realms of American care. We’re all suffering terribly. Covid has lit it all up for all to see. The resists to our bodies, minds, and spirits are profound, killing ourselves, acting normal, the poor and people of color dying in droves.”

He paused, scanning the trees for the fat man. Nothing. He went on, “We do miracles every day, we doctors, but we haven’t been able to get a place to work in body and spirit. One in 5 health care workers have quit. Many of us died. At the start of covid, we did the most important thing for us and our patients. We stuck together.” We did. It’s a model, right? But not lasting into the daytime. Hatred and money killed it. I have confidence. We’re no dopes, we docs.

I just think people like you, and people who pay attention, it’s inevitable. I do think it’s inevitable that we’re going to get better stuff. It really will.

Rovner: And get some of the greed out of medicine?

Shem: Yes, because it’s going to crash. You can’t go on like this. Nobody can go on like this. I think so. I really do. You know what? It doesn’t take much. How did we get rid of the presidents in the ’60s? Basically, people who are into power are scared about losing the power, you know, all of the people who protect them and all that stuff.

Rovner: Well, thank you very much, Dr. Samuel Shem. Thank you for joining us.

Shem: OK.

Rovner: We are back, and it’s time for our extra credit segment. That’s when we each recommend a story we read this week we think you should read, too. As always, don’t worry if you miss it. We will post the links on the podcast page at kffhealthnews.org and in our show notes on your phone or other mobile device. Victoria, why don’t you go first this week?

Knight: Sure thing. My extra credit is from KFF Health News, and it is called “Feds Rein In Use of Predictive Software That Limits Care for Medicare Advantage Patients,” by Susan Jaffe. This basically was looking at how Medicare Advantage plans, which are plans that private health insurers run for people that are of Medicare age — they’re basically running their health insurance programs — it’s talking about how these MA plans are using predictive software systems to make coverage decisions for patients, and so they’re looking at other patients that may have similar illnesses and what their treatments were and how long it took to treat them and then, based on that, deciding when they should cut off coverage for patients.

Rovner: That doesn’t always work very well, does it?

Knight: No, it does not. This story chronicles how this has happened to several patients, who were not ready to finish having whatever their treatment, illness — the person profiled in the story still couldn’t walk well. She had a colostomy bag, and they were going to cut off her coverage, and so she had to keep paying for it, almost $10,000, just because this software said, “Oh, you should be done by now, based on other people’s cases.”

But there is some good news, in that there is a Biden administration regulation that will be put into effect in January, and that’s going to do a better job of making sure these plans take the individual patient’s circumstances into account when making these coverage decisions, but we’ll see how that actually plays out. It takes effect in January.

Rovner: Really good story.

Knight: Yes, it’s a very good story, yes.

Rovner: Sarah.

Karlin-Smith: I looked at a Wall Street Journal story, “Children Are Dying in Ill-Prepared Emergency Rooms Across America,” by Liz Essley Whyte and Melanie Evans. It’s a piece that talks about how so many hospitals are not properly equipped to treat pediatric patients when they go to the ER. It’s a failure of regulations, standards, and so forth. They really document how this has been a long-known problem, going back 20-plus years, and things have not changed. This may mean that you might not — even if you have a hospital near you — you might not have a hospital that really can successfully save your child’s life. That is because children are not little adults. There’s different — you really have to be trained to know how to deal with them in emergencies and also even just have the equipment, the specialized sized equipment and so forth, to deal with them in emergencies.

It’s a really sad story. It gets into some of the economic reasons why these hospitals are not prepared. But again, it gives you a sense of a connection to Lauren’s piece, and the Post’s big piece, which is that we have a lot of tools and technology we’ve developed in this country, but if it’s not available to the people when and where they need it, lives don’t get saved.

Rovner: This piece really shook me, because I assume that — I mean, kids are the ones who seem to end up in the emergency room most often. They’re the ones who have accidents and fall off their bikes and get sick in the middle of the night and all those other things, and yet so many emergency rooms are not prepared for them. Anyway, Lauren.

Weber: I picked a piece that is particularly alarming if you know anyone that has a CPAP [continuous positive airway pressure] machine, but it’s titled “Philips Kept Complaints About Dangerous Breathing Machines Secret While Company Profits Soared.” It’s a collaboration between ProPublica, the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, and Northwestern, and I believe a Netherlands paper, as well. It’s a very disturbing investigation about how Philips knew, had been getting a ton of complaints, that when they rejiggered some of their breathing machines, the foam was disintegrating and chunks of the black material was then getting into people who were using the breathing machine’s lungs and, from the court cases, it appears, causing them potential cancers and adverse health effects.

The FDA, I guess, from reading the piece, requires that companies report complaints, but according to this, Philips did not tell the FDA about all these complaints. It’s a really alarming story, because you’re like, how many other companies are not telling anyone about the complaints they’re receiving? Just really well-done investigation. It appears to be based on court documents, so hats off to them, but very disturbing, again, if you have anyone that has a CPAP or breathing machine they need to sleep, which is vital for everyone. If you have an understanding about how those work, you are hooked up to it, so you are forced to breathe through it, so it really disturbed me that that could be causing you adverse health effects down the road.

Rovner: Yeah, I mean, this is obviously not the first story we’ve seen on this, but it’s certainly one of the most detailed stories that we have seen about this. Well, my story this week is from The Atlantic, by Ron Brownstein. It’s called “Virginia Could Determine the Future of the GOP’s Abortion Policy.” I think he’s right. Virginia votes in odd-numbered years, remember. While Republican Gov. Glenn Youngkin isn’t on the ballot next month, the entire state legislature, which has teetered between Republican and Democratic control over the past several elections, is facing the voters.

Democrats in Virginia, as elsewhere, are charging that if Republicans take back the majority in the State House and Senate, they will restrict abortion, which is likely true, but Republicans say they won’t, quote, “ban abortion,” per se, but would rather set a limit of 15 weeks, with exceptions for rape, incest, and the life of the pregnant person. If voters in a purple state like Virginia see that as a compromise position, rather than a ban, it could set the stage for Republicans elsewhere to fight the current Democratic advantage on the abortion issue. We will see, in about a month, how that all shakes out.

OK, that is our show for this week. As always, if you enjoy the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left us a review. That helps other people find us, too. Special thanks, as always, to our amazing engineer, Francis Ying. Also, as always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org, or you can still find me at X @jrovner or @julierovner at Bluesky and Threads. Sarah?

Karlin-Smith: I’m @SarahKarlin or @sarahkarlin-smith.

Rovner: Lauren.

Weber: I’m @LaurenWeberHP, for health policy.

Rovner: Victoria.

Knight: I’m @victoriaregisk [on X and Threads].

Rovner: We will be back in your feed next week. Until then, be healthy.

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Julie Rovner is chief Washington correspondent and host of KFF Health News’ weekly health policy news podcast, “What the Health?” A noted expert on health policy issues, Julie is the author of the critically praised reference book “Health Care Politics and Policy A to Z,” now in its third edition.

This week, while KFF Health News’ “What the Health?” takes a break, here’s an encore of a favorite episode this year: Host and chief Washington correspondent Julie Rovner leads a rare conversation with the current and two former secretaries of Health and Human Services. Taped in June before a live audience at Aspen Ideas: Health, part of the Aspen Ideas Festival, in Aspen, Colorado, Secretary Xavier Becerra and two of his predecessors, Kathleen Sebelius and Alex Azar, talk candidly about what it takes to run a department with more than 80,000 employees and a budget larger than those of many countries.

Among the takeaways from this week’s episode, originally aired in June:

• The Department of Health and Human Services is much more than a domestic agency. It also plays a key role in national security, the three HHS secretaries explained, describing the importance of the “soft diplomacy” of building and supporting health systems abroad.
• Each HHS secretary — Sebelius, who served under former President Barack Obama; Azar, who served under former President Donald Trump; and Becerra, the current secretary, under President Joe Biden — offered frank, sobering, and even funny stories about interacting with the White House. “Anything you thought you were going to do during the day often got blown up by the White House,” Sebelius said. Asked what he was unprepared for when he started the job, Azar quipped: “The Trump administration.”
• Identifying their proudest accomplishments as the nation’s top health official, Azar and Becerra both cited their work responding to the covid-19 pandemic, specifically Operation Warp Speed, the interagency effort to develop and disseminate vaccines, and H-CORE, which Becerra described as a quiet successor to Warp Speed. They also each touted their respective administrations’ efforts to regulate tobacco.
• Having weathered recent debates over the separation of public policy and politics at the top health agency, the panel discussed how they’ve approached balancing the two in decision-making. For Becerra, the answer was unequivocal: “We use the facts and the science. We don’t do politics.”

Click to open the transcript

Transcript: An Encore: 3 HHS Secretaries on What the Job Is Really Like

[Editor’s note: This transcript, generated using transcription software, has been edited for style and clarity.]

Julie Rovner: Hello “What the Health?” listeners. We’re taking this week off from the news while KFF holds an all-staff retreat. We’ll be back next week, but in the meantime, here’s an encore of one of our favorite episodes of the year — a chat with three Health and Human Services Secretaries. We’ll be back next week with our regular news roundup.

Hello and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Julie Rovner, coming to you this week from the Aspen Ideas: Health conference in Aspen, Colorado. We have a cool special for you this week. For the first time, the current secretary of Health and Human Services sat down for a joint interview with two of his predecessors. This was taped before a live audience on Wednesday evening, June 21, in Aspen. So, as we like to say, here we go.

Hello. Good evening. Welcome to Aspen Ideas: Health. I’m Julie Rovner. I’m the chief Washington correspondent for KFF Health News and also host of KFF Health News’ health policy podcast, “What the Health?,” which you are now all the audience for, so thank you very much. I’m sure these people with me need no introduction, but I’m going to introduce them anyway because I think that’s required.

Immediately to my left, we are honored to welcome the current U.S. secretary of Health and Human Services, Xavier Becerra. Secretary Becerra is the first Latino to serve in this post. He was previously attorney general of the state of California. And before that, he served in the U.S. House of Representatives for nearly 25 years, where, as a member of the powerful Ways and Means Committee, he helped draft and pass what’s now the Affordable Care Act. Thank you for joining us.

Next to him, we have Kathleen Sebelius, who served as secretary during the Obama administration from 2009 to 2014, where she also helped pass and implement the Affordable Care Act. I first met Secretary Sebelius when she was Kansas’ state insurance commissioner, a post she was elected to twice. She went on to be elected twice as governor of the state, which is no small feat in a very red state for a Democrat. Today, she also consults on health policy and serves on several boards, including — full disclosure — that of my organization, KFF. Thank you so much for being here.

And on the end we have Alex Azar, who served as HHS secretary from 2018 to 2021 and had the decidedly mixed privilege of leading the department through the first two years of the covid pandemic, which I’m sure was not on his to-do list when he took the job. At least Secretary Azar came to the job with plenty of relevant experience. He’d served in the department previously as HHS deputy secretary and as general counsel during the George W. Bush administration and later as a top executive at U.S. drugmaker Eli Lilly. Today, he advises a health investment firm, teaches at the University of Miami Herbert Business School, and sits on several boards, including the Aspen Institute’s. So, thank you.

Former Secretary of Health and Human Services Alex Azar: Thank you.

Rovner: So I know you’re not here to listen to me, so we’re going to jump in with our first question. As I’m sure we will talk about in more detail, HHS is a vast agency that includes, just on the health side, agencies including the Food and Drug Administration, the National Institutes of Health, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, and the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services. The department has more than 80,000 employees around the country and throughout the world and oversees more than one and a half trillion dollars of federal funding each year. I want to ask each of you — I guess we’ll start with you — what is the one thing you wish the public understood about the department that you think they don’t really now?

Secretary of Health and Human Services Xavier Becerra: Given everything you just said, I wish people would understand that the Constitution left health care to the states. And so, as big as we are and as much as we do — Medicare, Medicaid, CHIP [Children’s Health Insurance Program], Obamacare — we still don’t control or drive health care. The only way we get in the game is when we put money into it. And that’s why people do Medicare, because we put money into it. States do Medicaid because we put money into it. And it became very obvious with covid that the federal government doesn’t manage health care. We don’t have a national system of health or public health. We have a nationwide system of public health where 50 different states determine what happens, and so one state may do better than another, and we’re out there trying to make it work evenhandedly for everyone in America. But it’s very tough because we don’t have a national system of public health.

Rovner: Secretary, what’s the thing that you wish people understood about HHS?

Former Secretary of Health and Human Services Kathleen Sebelius: Well, I agree with what Secretary Becerra has said, but it always made me unhappy that people don’t understand fully, I don’t think, the international role that HHS plays, and it is so essential to the safety and security and resilience of the United States. So we have employees across the world. CDC has employees in about 40 other countries, and helping to build health systems in various parts of the world, sharing information about how you stand up a health system, what a great hospital looks like. NIH does experiments and clinical trials all over the globe and is regarded as the gold standard. And we actually, I think, at HHS were able to do what they call soft diplomacy. And a lot of countries aren’t eager to have the State Department involved. They’re certainly not eager to see soldiers. Our trade policies make some people uncomfortable. But they welcome health professionals. They welcome the opportunity to learn from the United States. So it’s really a way often to get into countries and make friendships. And we need to monitor across the globe, as covid showed so well. When an outbreak happens someplace else in the world, we can’t wait for it to arrive on the border of the United States. Safety and security of American citizens really depends on global information exchange, a global surveillance exchange. The CDC has also trained epidemiologists in regions around the world so that they can be faster and share information. And I think too often in Congress, those line items for foreign trips, for offices elsewhere, people say, “Well, we don’t really need that. We should focus all our attention on America.” But I’ve always thought, if folks really understood how integral it is not just to our health security, but really national security, that we have these partnerships — and it’s, as I say, I think the best soft diplomacy and the cheapest soft diplomacy underway is to send health professionals all over the globe and to make those friendships.

Rovner: Do you think people understand that better since covid?

Sebelius: Maybe. You know, but some people reacted, unfortunately, to covid, saying, “Well, we put up bigger walls, and we” — I mean, no disease needs a passport, no wall stops things from coming across our borders. And I’m not sure that still is something that people take to heart.

Rovner: Secretary Azar, you actually have the most — in terms of years — experience at the department. What is it that people don’t know that they should?

Azar: So I probably would have led with what Secretary Becerra said about just how highly decentralized the public health infrastructure and leadership and decision-making is in the United States. I mean, it really — all those calls are made, and it’s not even just the 50 states. It’s actually 62 public health jurisdictions, because we separately fund a whole series of cities. I’ll concur in that. I’d say the other thing that people probably don’t understand, and maybe this is too inside baseball, is the secretary of HHS is, on the one hand, probably the most powerful secretary in the Cabinet and, on the other hand, also quite weak. So literally every authority, almost every authority, in the thousands and thousands of pages of U.S. statute that empower programs at HHS, say, “The secretary shall …” So the FDA, the CDC, CMS, all of these programs really operate purely by delegation of the secretary, because Secretary Becerra allows them to make decisions or to run programs. They are his authorities. And so the media, then, when the secretary acts, will … [unintelligible] … “How dare you,” you know, “how dare you be involved in this issue or that issue?” Well, it is legally and constitutionally Secretary Becerra’s job. And, on the other hand, you are supervising — it’s like a university, because you’re also supervising operating divisions that are global household brands. It is really like being a university president, for all that’s good and evil of that. You have to lead by consensus. You have to lead by bringing people along. You are not a dictator, in spite of what the U.S. statutes say. It’s very, very similar to that — that you, the secretary, is both powerful, but also has to really lead a highly matrixed, consensus-based organization to get things done.

Rovner: You’re actually leading perfectly into my next question, which is, how do you juggle all the moving pieces of this department? Just putting the agency heads in one room could fill a room this size. So tell us what sort of an average day for each of you would look like as secretary, if there’s such a thing as an average day.

Azar: Well, first, not an average administration, so take with a grain of salt my average day. So, interspersed among the two to five phone calls with the president of the United States between 7 a.m. and midnight, you know, other than that, um — I started every day meeting with my — you know, as secretary, you’ve got to have a team around you that’s not just your operating divisions, but I would start every morning — we would have just a huddle with chief of staff, deputy chief of staff, my head of public affairs. Often my general counsel would join that, my legislative leader. Just what’s going to hit us in the face today? Like, what are we trying to do, and what’s going to hit us in the face today? Just a situational awareness, every morning at about 8 a.m., quick huddle on that, and then diving into really the rhythm of the day of — I tried to drive — I use a book that I helped actually do some of the work on called “The 4 Disciplines of Execution,” just a tool of how do you focus and drive change in very complex organizations? So I tried to focus on four key initiatives that I spent as much of my time as secretary on leading and pushing on, and so I tried to make sure as much of my time was doing that. But then it’s reactive. You’re having to go to White House meetings constantly. You have to sign off on every regulation at the department. And so you’re in meetings just getting briefed and deciding approve or disapprove, so that rhythm constantly, and then add travel in, add evening commitments, add speeches. I’d say the biggest challenge you have as a leader in HHS is that first point of, focus, because you could be like a bobber on the water, just going with whatever’s happening, if you don’t have a maniacally focused agenda of, “I’ve got a limited amount of time. I’m going to drive change here. And if I don’t spend time every day pushing the department on this issue, being basically a burr in the saddle to make it happen, it won’t.” And you’ve just got to constantly be on that.

Rovner: Secretary Sebelius, what did your average day look like?

Sebelius: Well, I’m not going to repeat what Alex has just said. A lot of that goes on in the daily routine. First of all, I think all of us would be sent home the night before with a binder of materials — briefings for what you’re going to do the next day. So you may have 10 meetings, but each of those has a 20-page brief behind it. And then what the issues are, what the questions might be. So that’s your homework often that you’re leaving with at 7 or 8 at night. I like to run in the morning, and I would get up, read my schedule, and then go out and run on the [National] Mall because it sort of cleared my head. I’m proud of having — some of the folks may still be here — none of the detail ran before I started running, and my deal with them was, “I’m much older than you are, you know. We’re all going to run.”

Azar: They still —

Sebelius: Oh, here we go.

Azar: They still talk about it.

Sebelius: Well, one of them got to be a great marathon runner, you know. Can’t hurt. One guy started riding a bike, and I was like, “What are you doing?” I mean, if I fall, what are you going to do with the bike? I mean, am I going to carry it, are you going to carry it? I mean, who — anyway, so I started that way. You’d go then into the office. And one of the things that was not mentioned is HHS has an amazing, camera-ready studio, TV studio, that lots of other Cabinet agencies used. It has a setting that looks like “The View.” It has a stool that you can look in cameras, but two or three days a week we would do what they call “Around the Country.” So you would sit in a stool, and I’d be doing updates on the ACA or a pitch to enrollment or something about a disease, and you would literally have a cue card up that would say “Minneapolis, Andrea.” And I would say, “Good morning, Andrea.” And we would do a two-second spot in Minneapolis and they’d have numbers for me and then the camera would switch and it would be Bob in St. Louis. “Hello, Bob. How are you?” So that was a morning start that’s a little bit different. Anything you thought you were going to do during the day often got blown up by the White House: somebody calling, saying, you know, “The president wants this meeting,” “the vice president’s calling this.” So then the day gets kind of rearranged. And I think the description of who the key staff are around, but 12 operating agencies — any one of them could be a much more than full-time job. So just getting to know the NIH or, you know, seeing what CDC in Atlanta does every day, but trying to keep the leadership in touch, in tune, and make sure that — one of the things that, having been a governor and working with Cabinet agencies, that I thought was really important, is everybody has some input on everything. These are the stars, the agency heads. They know much more about health and their agencies than I would ever know. But making sure that I have their input and their lens on every decision that was made. So we had regular meetings where the flatter the organization, the better, as far as I’m concerned. They were all there and they gave input into policy decisions. But it is not a boring job and it’s never done. You just had to say at the end of the day, with this giant book, “OK, that’s enough for today. I’ll start again tomorrow, and there’ll be another giant book and here we go.”

Rovner: And your day, since you’re doing it now?

Becerra: I don’t know if it’s the pleasure or the bane of starting off virtually. Almost everything we did was via Zoom. I didn’t meet many of my team until months into the term because we were in the midst of covid. So we would start the days usually pretty early in the morning with Zooms and it would go one Zoom after the other. Of course, once we started doing more in-person activities, schedulers still thought they could schedule you pretty much one right after the other, and so they pack in as much as they can. I think all of us would say we’re just blessed to have some of the most talented people. I see Commissioner Califf from the FDA over there in the room. I will tell you, it’s just a yes … [applause] … . It’s a blessing to get to serve with these folks. They are the best in their fields. And you’re talking about some pretty critical agencies, FDA, NIH, CDC, CMS. I mean, the breadth, the jurisdiction, of CMS is immense. They do fabulous work. They are so committed. And so it makes it a lot easier. And then, of course, we all — we each have had — I have my group of counselors who are essentially my captains of the different agencies, and they help manage, because without that it would be near-impossible. And these are people who are younger, but my God, they’re the folks that every CEO looks for to sort of help manage an agency, and they’re so committed to the task. And so I feel like a kid in a candy store because I’m doing some of the things that I worked on so long when I was a member of Congress and could never get over the finish line. Now I get to sort of nudge everything over the finish line, and it really is helpful, as Alex said, to remind people that the statute does say, “The secretary shall … ,” not someone else, “the secretary shall … .” And so, at the end of the day, you get to sort of weigh it. And so it’s a pleasure to work with very talented, committed people.

Sebelius: Julie, I want to throw in one more thing, because I think this is back to what people don’t know, but it’s also about our days. There’s an assumption, when administrations change, the whole agency changes, right? Washington all changes. In a department like HHS, 90,000 employees scattered in the country and around the world, there are about 900 total political appointees, and they are split among all the agencies and the secretary’s office there. So you’re really talking about this incredibly talented team of professionals who are running those agencies and have all the health expertise, with the few people across the top that may try to change directions and put — but I think there’s an assumption that sort of the whole group sweeps out and somebody else sweeps in, and that really is not the case.

Rovner: So, as I mentioned, all three of you had relevant government experience before you came to HHS. Secretary Sebelius, you were a governor, so you knew about running a large organization. I want to ask all three of you, did you really understand what you were getting into when you became secretary? And is there some way to grow up to become HHS secretary?

Azar: I mean, yeah, I — yeah, I have no excuse. My first day, right after getting sworn in — the secretary has a private elevator that goes directly up to the sixth floor where the suite is, the deputy secretary’s office to the right, secretary to the left — my first day, I’m up, headed up with my security detail, and I get off and I walk off to the right. “Mr. Secretary, no, no, no. It’s this way.” Literally, it was like — it had been 11 years, but it was like coming home to me. I was literally about to walk into my old office as deputy secretary, and they show me to the secretary’s office. And I think for the first three months, I kept thinking Tommy Thompson or Mike Leavitt was going to walk in and say, “Get the hell out of my office.” And no, so it, and it was the same people, as Secretary Sebelius said. I knew all the top career people. I’d worked with them over the course of — in and out of government — 20 years. So it was very much a “coming home” for me. And it was many of the same issues were still the same issues. Sustainable growth rate — I mean, whatever else, it was all the same things going on again, except the ACA was new. That was a new nice one you gave me to deal with also. So, yeah, thank you.

Sebelius: You’re welcome. We had to have something new.

Rovner: What were you unprepared for when you took on this job?

Azar: Well, for me, the Trump administration.

Rovner: Yeah, that’s fair.

Azar: I, you know, had come out of the Bush administration. You’re at Eli Lilly. I mean, you know, you’re used to certain processes and ways people interact. And, you know, it’s just — it was different.

Sebelius: I had a pretty different experience. The rhythm of being a governor and being a Cabinet secretary is pretty similar. Cabinet agencies, working with the legislative process, the budget. So I kind of had that sense. I had no [Capitol] Hill experience. I had not worked on the Hill or served on the Hill, so that was a whole new entity. You’re not by protocol even allowed in the department until you’re confirmed. So I had never even seen the inside of the office. I mean, Alex talked about being confused about which way to turn. I mean, I had no idea [about] anything on the sixth floor. I hadn’t ever been there. My way of entering the department — I was President [Barack] Obama’s second choice. [Former South Dakota Democratic Senator] Tom Daschle had been nominated to be HHS secretary. And that was fine with me. And I said, “I’m a governor. I’ve got two more years in my term. I’ll join you sometime.” And then when Sen. Daschle withdrew, the president came back to me and said, “OK, how about, would you take this job if you’re able to get it?” And I said, “Yes, that’s an agency that’s interesting and challenging.” So I still was a governor, so I was serving as governor, flying in and out of D.C. to get briefings so I could go through hearings on this department that I didn’t know a lot about and had never really worked with, and then would go back and do my day job in Kansas. And the day that the Senate confirmation hearing began, a call came to our office from the White House. And this staffer said, “This governor? “Yes.” “President Obama has a plane in the air. It’s going to land at Forbes Air Force Base at noon. We want you on the plane.” And I said, you know, “That’s really interesting, but I don’t have a job yet. And I actually have a job here in Kansas. And here’s my plan. You know, my plan is I’m going to wait until I get confirmed and then I’ll resign and then I’ll get on the plane and then I’ll come to D.C.” And they said, “The president has a plane in the air, and it will land. He wants you on the plane.” First boss I’d had in 20 years. And I thought, “Oh, oh, OK. That’s a new thing.” So I literally left. Secretary Azar has heard this story earlier, but I left an index card on my desk in Kansas that said, “In the event I am confirmed, I hereby resign as governor.” And it was notarized and left there because I thought, I’m not giving up this job, not knowing if I will have another job. But halfway across the country I was confirmed and they came back and said — so I land and I said, “Where am I going?” I, literally, where — I mean, I’m all by myself, you know, it’s like, where am I going? “You’re going to the White House. The president’s going to swear you in.” “Great.” Except he couldn’t swear me in. He didn’t have the statutory authority, it turns out, so he could hold the Bible and the Cabinet secretary could swear me in. And then I was taken to the Situation Room, with somebody leading the way because I’d never been to the Situation Room. And the head of the World Health Organization was on the phone, the health minister from Canada, the health minister from Mexico, luckily my friend Janet Napolitano, who was Department of Homeland Security secretary — because we were in the middle of the H1N1 outbreak, swine flu, nobody knew what was going on. It was, you know, an initial pandemic. And everybody met and talked for a couple of hours. And then they all got up and left the room and I thought, woo-hoo, I’m the Cabinet secretary, you know, and they left? And somebody said to me later, well, “Does the White House find you a place to live?” I said, “Absolutely not. Nobody even asked if I had a place to stay.” I mean, it was 11 o’clock at night. They were all like, “Good night,” “goodbye,” “see ya.” So I luckily had friends in D.C. who I called and said, “Are you up? Can I come over? I’d like somebody to say, ‘Yay,’ you know, ‘we’re here.’” So that’s how I began.

Rovner: So you are kind of between these two. You have at least a little more idea of what it entailed. But what were you unprepared for in taking on this job?

Becerra: Probably the magnitude. Having served in Congress, I knew most of the agencies within HHS. I had worked very closely with most of the bigger agencies at HHS. As AG — Alex, I apologize — I sued HHS quite a —

Azar: He sued me a lot.

Becerra: Quite a few times.

Azar: Becerra v. Azar, all over the place.

Becerra: But the magnitude. I thought running the largest department of justice in the land other than the U.S. Department of Justice was a pretty big deal. But then you land and you have this agency that just stretches everywhere. And I agree with everything that Kathleen said earlier about the role that we play internationally. We are some of the best ambassadors for this country in the world because everyone wants you to help them save lives. And so it really helps. So the magnitude — it just struck me. When President Biden came in, we lost the equivalent of about — what, 13 9/11 twin tower deaths one day. Every day we were losing 11 twin tower deaths. And it hits you: You’ve got to come up with the answer yesterday. And so the White House is not a patient place, and they want answers quickly. And so you’re just, you’re on task. And it really is — it’s on you. You really — it smothers you, because you can’t let it go. And whether it was covid at the beginning or monkeypox last year, all of a sudden we see monkeypox, mpox, starting to pop up across the country. And it was, could this become the next covid? And so right away you’ve got to smother it. And the intensity is immediate. Probably the thing that I wasn’t prepared for as well, along with the magnitude, was, as I said, the breadth. Came in doing all these Zooms virtually to try to deal with the pandemic. But probably the thing that I had to really zero in on even more, that the president was expecting us to zero in on more, was migrant kids at the border and how you deal with not having a child sleep on a cement floor with an aluminum blanket and just trying to deal with that. It won’t overwhelm you necessarily, but — and again, thank God you’ve got just people who are so committed to this, because at any hour of the day and night, you’re working on these things — but the immensity of the task, because it’s real. And other departments also have very important responsibilities — clearly, Department of Defense, Department of State. But really it truly is life-and-death at HHS. So the gravity, it hits you, and it’s nonstop.

Rovner: All three of you were secretary at a time when health was actually at the top of the national agenda — which is not true. I’ve been covering HHS since 1986, and there have been plenty of secretaries who sort of were in the back of the administration, if you will, but you all really were front and center in all of these things. I want to go to sort of down the line. What was the hardest decision you had to make as secretary?

Becerra: Um …

Rovner: You’re not finished yet. I should say so far.

Becerra: I mean, there have been a lot of tough decisions, but, you know, when your team essentially prepares them up and you have all this discussion, but by the time it gets to me, it really has been baked really, really well. And now it’s sort of, White House is looking at this, we are seeing some of this, we’ve got to make a call. And again, Dr. Califf could speak to this as well. At the end of the day, the decisions aren’t so much difficult. It’s that they’re just very consequential. Do you prepare for a large surge in omicron and therefore spend a lot of money right now getting ready? Or do you sort of wait and see a little bit longer, preserve some of your money so you can use some of that money to do the longer-term work that needs to be done to prepare for the next generation of the viruses that are coming? Because once you spend the dollar, you don’t have it anymore. So you got to make that call. Those are the things that you’re constantly dealing with. But again, it just really helps to have a great team.

Sebelius: So I would say I was totally fortunate that the pandemic we dealt with was relatively short-lived and luckily far, far milder than what consumed both the secretaries to my left and right, and that was fortunate. A lot of our big decision areas were under the rubric of the Affordable Care Act and both trying to get it passed and threading that needle but then implementation. And I — you know, thinking about that question, Julie, I would say one of the toughest decisions — just because it provided a real clash between me and some of the people in the White House; luckily, at the end of the day, not the president, but — was really about the contraception coverage. Reproductive health had been something I’d worked on as a legislator, as governor. I felt very strongly about it. We’d fought a lot of battles in Kansas around it, and part of the Affordable Care Act was a preventive services benefit around contraceptive care. And that was going to be life-changing for a lot of women. And how broad it should be, how many battles we were willing to take on, how that could be implemented became a clash. And I think there were people in the administration who were hopeful that you could avoid clashes. So just make a compromise, you know, eliminate this group or that group, who may get unhappy about it. And at the end of the day, I was helped not just by people in the department, but mobilized some of my women Cabinet friends and senior White House women friends. And we sort of had a little bit of a facedown. And as I say, the president ended up saying, “OK, we’ll go big. We’ll go as big as we possibly can.” But I look back on that as a — I mean, it was a consequential decision, and it was implementation — not passing the rag in the first place, but implementing it. And it had a big impact. A big impact. It’s not one I regret, but it got a little a little tense inside, but what would be friendly meetings.

Azar: I’d use the divide Secretary Becerra talked about, which is that consequential versus hard decisions, that a lot — I think one could have a Hamlet-like character. I don’t. And so making the call when it comes to you wasn’t a terribly difficult thing, even. These are life-and-death decisions, but still yourself, you know your thought processes, you think it through, it’s been baked very well, you’ve heard all sides. You just have to make that call. So I’d maybe pivot to probably it’s more of a process thing. The hardest aspect for me was just deciding when do you fight and when do you not fight with, say, the White House? What hills do you die on? And where do you say, “Yeah, not what I would do, but I just have to live to fight another day.” Those were probably the toughest ones to really wrestle with.

Rovner: Was there one where you really were ready to die on the hill?

Azar: There were a lot. There were a lot. I mean, I’ll give you one example. I mean, I left a lot of blood on the field of battle just to try to outlaw pharmaceutical rebates, to try to push those through to the point of sale. I probably stayed to the end just to get that dag — because I, the opponents had left the administration and I finally got that daggone rule across the finish line right at the end. And that was something that I felt incredibly strongly that you could never actually change. I’ve lived inside that world. You could never change the dynamic of pharmaceutical drug pricing without passing through rebates to the point of sale. And I had so many opponents to get that done. It was a three-year constant daily battle that felt vindicated then to get it done. But that was a fight.

Rovner: And of course, I can’t help but notice that all of the things that you all are talking about are things that are still being debated today. None of them are completely resolved. Let’s turn this around a little bit. I wanted to ask you what you’re most proud of actually getting accomplished. Was it the rebate rule? That was a big deal.

Azar: For me, it has to be Operation Warp Speed. …[applause] … Yeah. Thank you. That was just — I mean, and I don’t want to take the credit. I mean, it was public-private. Mark Esper, this could not have happened without the partnership of the Defense Department, and it could not have happened without Mark Esper as secretary, because — I guarantee you, I’ve dealt with a lot of SecDefs in my career — and when the secretary of defense says to you, “Alex, you have the complete power and support of the Department of Defense. You just tell me what you need.” I haven’t heard those words before. And he was a partner and his whole team a partner throughout. And when you have the muscle of the U.S. military behind you to get something done, it is miraculous what happens. I mean, we were making hundreds of millions of doses of commercial-scale vaccine in June of 2020, when we were still in phase 2 clinical trials. We were just making it at risk. So we’re pumping this stuff out. And in one of the factories, a pump goes down. The pump is on the other side of the country on a train. The U.S. military shoots out a fighter jet, it gets out there, stops the train, pulls the train over, puts it on a helicopter, gets it on the jet, zips it off to the factory. We have colonels at every single manufacturing facility, and they get this installed. We’re up and running within 24 hours. It would have taken six to nine months under normal process. But the U.S. military got that done. So that for me was like just — the other two quick, one was banning flavored e-cigarettes. We got 25% reduction in youth use of tobacco in 12 months as a result of that. And then one of the great public health victories that this country had and the world had got ignored because it got concluded in June of 2020: We had the 11th Ebola outbreak. It was in the war zone in the eastern Democratic Republic of the Congo. This was the pandemic I was really, really worried about. One-hundred seventy-four warring groups in the war zone in the eastern Congo. Got [WHO Director-General] Tedros [Adhanom Ghebreyesus] and [then-Director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases Anthony] Fauci and [then-CDC Director Robert] Redfield, and we went over and we went on the ground and we got that. And by June of 2020, that one got out, which was a miracle of global public health. I’m with Kathleen on that one; I think global public health is a key instrument of American power projection humanity around the world. Sorry to go so long.

Rovner: It’s OK. Your turn.

Sebelius: I think proudest is the ability to participate in the Affordable Care Act and push that over the finish line. And for me, it was a really personal journey. My father was in Congress and was one of the votes for Medicare and Medicaid to be passed, so that chunk of the puzzle. I was the insurance commissioner in Kansas when the Republican governor asked me to do the implementation of the Children’s Health Insurance Program. So I helped with that piece. I was on President [Bill] Clinton’s patient protection commission and ended up with a lot of that package in the Affordable Care Act. And then finally to work for and support and watch a president who basically said when he announced for president, “This is my priority in my first term: I want to pass a major health care bill.” And a lot of people had made that pledge. But 15 months later, there was a bill on his desk and he signed it, and we got to implement it. So that was thrilling. Yeah. And, I should tell you, then-Congressman Becerra was one of the wingmen in the House who I worked with carefully, who — there was no better vote counter than Nancy Pelosi, but by her side was this guy, part of her delegation, named Xavier Becerra, who was whipping the votes into place. So he played a key role in making sure that crossed the finish line.

Becerra: So I’m still here, so you’re going to have to —

Rovner: You can change your answer later.

Becerra: I need a bit of grace here, because I’m going to start with Warp Speed, because I bet no one here knows there’s no longer a Operation Warp Speed. It’s now called H-CORE. And the reason I’m very proud of that is because you don’t know that it’s now H-CORE. And what makes it such a good thing is that the Department of Defense no longer has any role in the protection of the American people from covid. It’s all done in-house at HHS. Everything used to be done essentially under the auspices of the Department of Defense, because they are just the folks that can get things done in 24 hours. We do that now, and it’s the operations that were begun a while back. Kathleen had them, Alex had them. Our ASPR, that’s our Preparedness and Response team, they’re doing phenomenal work, but you don’t know it, and you don’t know that H-CORE took to flight in the first year of the Biden administration. By December of 2021, Department of Defense had transferred over all those responsibilities to us, and we’ve been doing it since. But if you ask me what am I most proud of, it’s, I mean, there are more Americans today than ever in the history of this country who have the ability to pay for their own health care because they have health insurance, more than 300 million. Part of that is Obamacare; a record number, 16 and a half million Americans, get their insurance through the marketplaces, and we haven’t stopped yet. There are close to 700 million shots of covid vaccine that have gone into the arms of Americans. That’s never been done in the history of this country. Some of you are probably familiar with three digits, 988, at a time when Americans are … [applause] … 9 in 10 Americans would tell you that America is experiencing a mental health crisis, especially with our youth. And Congress got wise and said, instead of having in different parts of the country, based on region, you could call a phone number for a suicide lifeline, if you didn’t know the 10-digit number or what part of the country you were in, you were out of luck — today, all you have to do is dial 988. But as I said before, federal government doesn’t run mental health. It’s all done by the states. But President Biden is very committed to mental health. His budgets have surpassed any type of investments that have been called for by any president in history for mental health. And he was very committed to 988 to make sure it launched right. And so we have, by exponential numbers, put money into 988 to make sure every state was ready to have it launch. And so by July of 2022, we launched 988, and it is working so well that people are actually calling — actually, not just calling. We now have a text feature and a chat feature because surprise, surprise, young people prefer not to call; they actually prefer to text. And we have increased the number of Americans who are reaching out by over 2 million, which is great, but it’s also not great because it shows you how much Americans are hurting. So there’s so many things I can tell you that I feel very good about that we’re doing. We’re not done. We’re moving beyond on tobacco where Alex left. We’re now moving to ban menthol in cigarettes. Menthol cigarettes are the most popular brand of cigarettes in America. They hook you because of the menthol, and we’re moving to extract menthol. We’re moving to ban flavored cigars and cigarillos. And we may be on course to try to see if we can move to extract as much nicotine out of tobacco as possible before it becomes a product on the market for folks to smoke. So we’re doing a whole lot of things there. And obviously on vaping, e-cigarettes as well — and Dr. Califf could mention that. But I’ll say the thing I’m probably most proud of is that, out of all the government agencies in America, federal government agencies, HHS ranks No. 2 as the best place to work. And I will tell you we’re No. 2, because if we had the capacity to tell our workforce, we will fly you to the moon and back the way NASA does, we’d be No. 1. So that’s what I think I’m most proud of, is that people, as hard as we work them, still say, “Come work at HHS.”

Rovner: So all of you have mentioned these things that were really hard to do because of politics. And you’ve all talked about how some of these decisions, when they get to you, have been baked by your staff and, you know, they vetted it with every side. But I think the public feels like politics determine everything. And I think you all would like to think that policy is what helps determine most things. So, what’s the balance? How much does politics determine what gets done, and how much is it just the idea that this would be the right policy for the American public?

Azar: Mike Leavitt, who was the secretary when I was deputy secretary, he had a phrase, and I’ll probably mangle it, but it was essentially, “Facts for science, and politics for policy.” And it’s important to remember this distinction. So, facts are facts. You gather data. We are especially a data-generating agency. But on top of that are policy overlays. And there are choices that are made about how do you use those facts? What do those facts mean? What are the implications? The United States Constitution vests under Article 2 in the president of the United States to make those choices and, as his delegee, the secretary and the other appointed leaders of the department. So there’s often this notion of politicizing science, but it’s, are there facts? Facts are facts. You generate facts. But what are the implications for policymaking? And I don’t think there’s anything illegitimate — I think is completely appropriate, whether a Democratic or Republican president — that you look and you consider all kinds of factors. Because for instance, for me, I’m going to look at things very much from a public health lens as I assess things. The secretary of the treasury, the secretary of commerce, may bring a completely and important different perspective to the table that I don’t bring. And it’s completely legitimate that that gets factored on top of whatever I or other agencies bring in as fact. So I think it takes some nuance and that we often, frankly, in public discourse don’t catch nuance. Interesting. We don’t do nuance well.

Rovner: We don’t do nuance.

Sebelius: Well, I would agree with the description of the facts versus the policy. And policy does often have political flavors. I was fortunate to work for a president who said, meant, and said it over and over and over again that he would follow the science. And he did. And I had interesting political debates with people around him, on his team, about what should be done, “rewrite the guidance on this,” “do that,” “this is going to upset this group of people.” And he was very resilient and very consistent, saying, “What does the science say? What do the scientists say? That’s where we’re going,” on those areas which were really defined as giving advice to the American public on health issues, doing a variety of things. I mean, he was totally focused on listening to the science. The politics came in, as I think Secretary Azar said well, in some decisions that were brought to him, which really involved often battles between Cabinet agencies, and both were very legitimate. Again, we had pretty ferocious battles on food labeling and calorie counts and how much sodium would, should manufacturers be allowed to put in all of our manufactured goods. I’m sure many of you are aware, but, you know, American sodium levels are just skyrocketing. And it doesn’t matter what kind of salt you use at your table; it’s already baked into every loaf of bread, every pat of butter, every can of soup. And a lot of European countries have done a great job just lowering that. So the goods that are manufactured that you pick up in an EU country — Kellogg’s Corn Flakes has a third of the sodium that the Kellogg’s Corn Flakes that you get in Aspen does, just because that was a choice that those governments made. That’s a way to keep people healthy. But we would come at that through a public health perspective and argue strenuously for various kinds of limits. The Department of Agriculture, promoting farm products, supporting goods it exports, you know, not wanting to rile people up, would come in very strongly opposing a lot of those public health measures. And the president would make that call. Now, is that politics? Is it policy? Is it, you know, listening to a different lens? But he made the call and some of those battles we would win and some we would lose. But again, it’s a very legitimate role for the president to make. He’s getting input from leaders who see things through a different lens, and then he’s the ultimate decider and he would make the decision.

Becerra: So um, I’ve done politics and policy much longer than I’ve done the secretary role. And I will tell you that there is a big difference. We do do some policy, but for the most part we execute. The policy has been given to us by Congress, and to some degree the White House will help shape that policy. We have some role in policymaking because we put out guidances, and the guidance may look like it’s political or policy-driven, or we decide how much sodium might be allowed in a particular product and so forth. But for the most part, we’re executing on a policy that’s been dictated to the agencies by Congress. And I love that, because when I became AG in California, it really hit you how important it is to be able to marshal facts. And in HHS, it’s not just facts; it’s scientific facts. It is such a treat, as an attorney, to get to rely on scientific facts to push things like masking policy in the face of some hostility that went throughout the country to the point that our CDC director had to have security detail because she was getting death threats for having policies that would urge society to have masking policies for adults, for children. We do rely principally on science and the facts at HHS. Maybe folks don’t believe it, but I can put those on the table for you to take a look at. And perhaps the best example I can give you, and I don’t know if I’ll have time to connect the dots for you, because it’s a little esoteric: Title 42, which many of you got to hear about all the time in the news. Title 42 was a policy that was put in place under the Trump administration when we were in the height of the covid pandemic. We didn’t know what was causing covid, so we were trying to make sure that we protected ourselves and our borders. And so therefore, for public health reasons, we sort of closed our borders to the degree that we could, except for those who proved that they had gone through steps and so forth to be able to come in. Title 42 was used under the Trump administration, under the Biden administration to stop people from coming through our southern border. And there reached a point where, as things got better, our team said Title 42, which is health-based — it’s to stop the spread of contagion — was no longer the appropriate tool to use at the border, because we were letting people in the northern border, by plane, and all the rest. You just had to go through protocols. And so they were saying for health care reasons you go through protocols. But Title 42 is probably not the blanket way to deal with this issue, because it’s no longer simply a health care issue. We pushed really hard on that within the administration to the point where, finally, the administration said, “We’re pulling down Title 42.” Then the politics and the policy came in, from Congress saying, “Oh, how dare you take down Title 42? How dare you do that and let the flood of people come into this country?” Well, look, if you want to deal with people coming into the country, whatever way, then deal with our country’s borders through our immigration laws, not through our health care laws. Don’t try to make health care experts be the reason why you’re stopping someone from coming into this country. Stop hiding behind their skirt. And that’s where we went. And the administration took that policy as well. They took the policy. We then got sued and a court said, “No, you will not take down Title 42.” Ultimately, we think we were going to prevail in court, but ultimately, because we pulled down the public health emergency, things got better under covid, we no longer needed Title 42. But just again, to be clear, the women and men at HHS, we execute; we use the facts and the science. We don’t do politics.

Rovner: So we’ve been very serious.

Becerra: Not everybody believed me on that one.

Rovner: I know, I know. We’ve been very serious here for 50-some minutes. I want to go down the line. What’s the most fun thing you got to do as secretary or the coolest thing that you got to do as secretary?

Azar: Probably for me, it was the trip to the Congo, you know, being in the DRC, going to Uganda, going to Rwanda, flying on MONUSCO [United Nations Organization Stabilization Mission in the Democratic Republic of the Congo] U.N. peacekeeping forces; there was a Russian gunboat taking Tedros and Fauci and Redfield and me there into this war zone. I mean, it’s a once-in-a-lifetime — it’s sort of crazy — but once-in-a-lifetime thing that had impact.

Rovner: I don’t know that most people would call that fun.

Azar: I mean, it’ll be one of those great memories for life. Yeah. Yeah.

Sebelius: There were certainly some great trips and memorable experiences around health results in various parts of the world. Some martinis on the presidential balcony and looking at the Washington Monument — that’s pretty cool at night. But my, I think, personally kind of fun thing. I raised my children on “Sesame Street,” and they loved “Sesame Street” and the characters, and that was sort of part of the family routine. And so I got to go to “Sesame Street” and make a public service commercial with Elmo. I got to see Oscar’s garbage can. I met Snuffleupagus. But the Elmo commercial was to teach kids how to sneeze because, again, we were trying to spread good health habits. And so the script said — I mean, Elmo is right here and I’m here — and the script said, “OK, Elmo, we need to practice how to sneeze. So put your arm up and bend your elbow and sneeze into your arm.” And the puppet answered, “Elmo has no elbow.” That wasn’t part of the script. It was like, really? “And if Elmo does that, it will go like this: Achoo!” OK, so we flipped the script and Elmo taught me to sneeze. But that was a very memorable day to finally be on “Sesame Street.” It was very cool.

Rovner: OK, beat that.

Becerra: My team has not yet scheduled me to go on “Sesame Street,” so it’s going to be tough.

Sebelius: But just remember, Elmo has no elbows, if you get to go.

Becerra: I think probably what I will think of most is that I had had a chance to be in the White House and meet with the president in the Oval Office and the rest as a of member of Congress and so forth. When I went in, and it was because things were kind of dire with the kids at the border, and I knew I was going to get a whiplash after the meeting — it wasn’t fun at the time, but walking out, you know, it’s the kind of thing you think of, you know, “West Wing” kind of thing. You actually got the — president sat at the table, I was the guy that sat across from him. Everybody else was to the sides. You know, for a kid who was the first in his family to go to college, Dad didn’t get past the sixth grade, Mom didn’t come here till she was 18, when she came from Guadalajara, Jalisco, Mexico. It was pretty cool.

Rovner: So I could go on all night, but I think we’re not supposed to. So I want to ask you all one last question, which is, regardless of party affiliation, what is one piece of advice you would give to a successor as HHS secretary? Why don’t you start?

Becerra: Gosh, don’t start with me because I’m still there, so —

Rovner: All right.

Azar: I’m going to plagiarize and I’m going to give you the advice I wish Donna Shalala had given me before I took the job. But I would give it to any successor, which: She told me, “Do not take the job unless you have authority over personnel. Refuse to take the job unless you have control over who’s working, because people is policy and you have to be able to control the ethics, the tone, the culture of the organization. And people are that, and you need to have that authority.” And ever really since the Reagan administration, the Office of Presidential Personnel has just been this vortex of power that controls all political appointees at Cabinet departments. And I think if the president really wants you, you need to strike a deal that says, at a minimum, I’ve got veto or firing rights.

Sebelius: I think my advice would be the advice you give to a lot of employees who work in the private sector or public sector is, Make sure you’re aligned with the mission of the CEO, so in this case the president. I mean, don’t take the job because it’s cool and you’ll be a Cabinet member, because then it will be miserable. And with HHS, recognize the incredible assets across this agency. It is the most dazzling workforce I’ve ever had an opportunity to be with — the brightest people of all shapes, sizes, backgrounds, who taught me so much every day — and just cherish and relish your opportunity to be there, even for a short period of time. It’s miraculous.

Becerra: So I’d agree with Alex: Assemble your team. And it really is, because Kathleen mentioned it, it’s a very small group that actually you get to bring in, or even the administration gets to bring in, because most of the folks are civil service, so it’s only a fraction of the people that are going to be new. But your inner circle, the team that’s going to sort of be there and guide you and tell you what’s truth, they’ve got to be your team, because someone’s got to have your back. But I’d also say, know your reach, because as Kathleen said, this is not the Azar administration or the Sebelius administration, the Becerra administration. It’s the administration of the guy who got elected. And at the end of the day, the president gets to make the call. So as much as you may want to do something, you’ve got to know your reach.

Rovner: Well, I want to thank you all. I hope the audience had half as much fun as I did doing this. Let’s do it again next year. Thank you, all. OK, that’s our show for this week. As always, if you enjoy the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left a review; that helps other people find us, too. Special thanks, as always, and particularly this week, to our producer, Francis Ying. Also as always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org. Or you can tweet me. I’m @jrovner. We’ll be back in your feed from Washington next week. Until then, be healthy.

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Julie Rovner is chief Washington correspondent and host of KFF Health News’ weekly health policy news podcast, “What the Health?” A noted expert on health policy issues, Julie is the author of the critically praised reference book “Health Care Politics and Policy A to Z,” now in its third edition.

Federal officials have instructed at least 30 states to reinstate Medicaid and Children’s Health Insurance Program coverage for half a million people, including children, after an errant computer program wrongly determined they were no longer eligible. It’s just the latest hiccup in the yearlong effort to redetermine the eligibility of beneficiaries now that the program’s pandemic-era expansion has expired.

Meanwhile, the federal government is on the verge of a shutdown, as a small band of House Republicans resists even a short-term spending measure to keep the lights on starting Oct. 1. Most of the largest federal health programs, including Medicare, have other sources of funding and would not be dramatically impacted — at least at first. But nearly half of all employees at the Department of Health and Human Services would be furloughed, compromising how just about everything runs there.

This week’s panelists are Julie Rovner of KFF Health News, Rachel Roubein of The Washington Post, Sandhya Raman of CQ Roll Call, and Sarah Karlin-Smith of Pink Sheet.

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Sandhya Raman
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Rachel Roubein
The Washington Post

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Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:

• Officials in North Carolina announced the state will expand its Medicaid program starting on Dec. 1, granting thousands of low-income residents access to health coverage. With North Carolina’s change, just 10 states remain that have not expanded the program — yet, considering those states have resisted even as the federal government has offered pandemic-era and other incentives, it is unlikely more will follow for the foreseeable future.
• The federal government revealed that nearly half a million individuals — including children — in at least 30 states were wrongly stripped of their health coverage under the Medicaid unwinding. The announcement emphasizes the tight-lipped approach state and federal officials have taken to discussing the in-progress effort, though some Democrats in Congress have not been so hesitant to criticize.
• The White House is pointing to the possible effects of a government shutdown on health programs, including problems enrolling new patients in clinical trials at the National Institutes of Health and conducting food safety inspections at the FDA.
• Americans are grappling with an uptick in covid cases, as the Biden administration announced a new round of free test kits available by mail. But trouble accessing the updated vaccine and questions about masking are illuminating the challenges of responding in the absence of a more organized government effort.
• And the Biden administration is angling to address health costs at the executive level. The White House took its first step last week toward banning medical debt from credit scores, as the Federal Trade Commission filed a lawsuit to target private equity’s involvement in health care.
• Plus, the White House announced the creation of its first Office of Gun Violence Prevention, headed by Vice President Kamala Harris.

Also this week, Rovner interviews KFF Health News’ Samantha Liss, who reported and wrote the latest KFF Health News-NPR “Bill of the Month,” about a hospital bill that followed a deceased patient’s family for more than a year. If you have an outrageous or infuriating medical bill you’d like to send us, you can do that here.

Plus, for “extra credit,” the panelists suggest health policy stories they read this week they think you should read, too:

Julie Rovner: JAMA Internal Medicine’s “Comparison of Hospital Online Price and Telephone Price for Shoppable Services,” by Merina Thomas, James Flaherty, Jiefei Wang, et al.

Sarah Karlin-Smith: The Los Angeles Times’ “California Workers Who Cut Countertops Are Dying of an Incurable Disease,” by Emily Alpert Reyes and Cindy Carcamo.

Rachel Roubein: KFF Health News’ “A Decades-Long Drop in Teen Births Is Slowing, and Advocates Worry a Reversal Is Coming,” by Catherine Sweeney.

Sandhya Raman: NPR’s “1 in 4 Inmate Deaths Happen in the Same Federal Prison. Why?” by Meg Anderson.

Also mentioned in this week’s episode:

• KFF Health News’ “Diagnosis: Debt,” by Noam N. Levey and KFF Health News, NPR, and CBS staff.
• The New York Times’ “In Hospitals, Viruses Are Everywhere. Masks Are Not,” by Apoorva Mandavilli.

click to open the transcript

Transcript: More Medicaid Messiness

KFF Health News’ ‘What the Health?’Episode Title: More Medicaid MessinessEpisode Number: 316Published: Sept. 27, 2023

[Editor’s note: This transcript was generated using both transcription software and a human’s light touch. It has been edited for style and clarity.]

Julie Rovner: Hello and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Julie Rovner, chief Washington correspondent for KFF Health News. And I’m joined by some of the best and smartest health reporters in Washington. We’re taping early this week, on Wednesday, Sept. 27, at 10 a.m. As always, news happens fast and things might’ve changed by the time you hear this, so here we go.

We are joined today via video conference by Rachel Roubein of The Washington Post.

Rachel Roubein: Good morning. Thanks for having me.

Rovner: Sandhya Raman of CQ Roll Call.

Sandhya Raman: Good morning.

Rovner: And Sarah Karlin-Smith of the Pink Sheet.

Sarah Karlin-Smith: Hi, everybody.

Rovner: Later in this episode we’ll have my KFF Health News-NPR “Bill of the Month” interview with Samantha Liss. This month’s bill is literally one that followed a patient to his family after his death. But first, the news. I want to start with Medicaid this week. North Carolina, which approved but didn’t fund its Medicaid expansion earlier this year, approved a budget this week that will launch the expansion starting Dec. 1. That leaves just 10 states that have still not expanded the program to, mostly, low-income adults, since the Affordable Care Act made it possible in, checks notes, 2014. Any other holdout states on the horizon? Florida is a possibility, right, Rachel?

Roubein: Yes. There’s only technically three states that can do ballot measures. Now North Carolina, I believe, was the first state to actually pass through the legislature since Virginia in 2018. A lot of the most recent states, seven conservative-leaning states, instead pursued the ballot measure path. In Florida, advocates have been eyeing a 2026 ballot measure. But the one issue in Florida is that they need a 60% threshold to pass any constitutional amendment, so that is pretty, pretty high and would take a lot of voter support.

Rovner: And they would need a constitutional amendment to expand Medicaid?

Roubein: A lot of the states have been going the constitutional amendment route in terms of Medicaid in recent years. Because what they found was some legislatures would come back and try and change it, but if it’s a constitutional amendment, they weren’t able to do that. But a lot of the holdout states don’t have ballot measure processes, where they could do this — like Alabama, Georgia, etc.

Raman: Kind of just echoing Rachel that this one has been interesting just because it had come through the legislature. And even with North Carolina, it’s been something that we’ve been eyeing for a few years, and that they’d gone a little bit of the way, a little bit of the way a few times. And it was kind of the kind of gettable one within the ones that hadn’t expanded. And the ones we have left, there’s just really not been much progress at all.

Rovner: I would say North Carolina, like Virginia, had a Democratic governor that ran on this and a Republican legislature, or a largely Republican legislature, hence the continuing standoff. It took both states a long time to get to where they had been trying to go. And you’re saying the rest of the states are not split like that?

Raman: Yeah, I think it’ll be a much more difficult hill to climb, especially when, in the past, we had more incentives to expand with some of the previous covid relief laws, and they still didn’t bite. So it’s going to be more difficult to get those.

Rovner: No one’s holding their breath for Texas to expand. Anyway, while North Carolina will soon start adding people to its Medicaid rolls, the rest of the states are shedding enrollees who gained coverage during the pandemic but may no longer be eligible. And that unwinding has been bumpy to say the least. The latest bump came last week when the Department of Health and Human Services revealed that more than half a million people, mostly children, had their coverage wrongly terminated by as many as 30 states. It seems a computer program failed to note that even if a parent’s income was now too high to qualify, that same income could still leave their children eligible. Yet the entire family was being kicked off because of the way the structure of the program worked. I think the big question here is not that this happened, but that it wasn’t noticed sooner. It should have been obvious — children’s eligibility for Medicaid has been higher than adults since at least the 1980s. This unwinding has been going on since this spring. How is this only being discovered now? It’s September. It’s the end of September.

Roubein: Yeah. I mean, this was something advocates who have been closely watching this have been ringing the alarm bells for a while, and then it took time. CMS [the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services] had put something out, I believe it was roughly two weeks before they actually then had the roughly half a million children regain coverage — they had put out a, “OK, well, we’re exploring which states.” And lots of reporters were like, “OK, well which state is this an issue?” So yeah, the process seemed like it took some time here.

Rovner: I know CMS has been super careful. I mean, I think they’re trying not to politicize this, because they’ve been very careful not to name states, and in many cases who they know have been wrongly dropping people. I guess they’re trying to keep it as apolitical as possible, but I think there are now some advocates who worry that maybe CMS is being a little too cautious.

Karlin-Smith: Yeah, I think from the other side too, if you’ve talked to state officials, they’re also trying to be really cautious and not criticize CMS. So it seems like both sides are not wanting to go there. But I mean some Democrats in Congress have been critical of how the effort has gone.

Rovner: Yeah. And of course, if the government shuts down, as seems likely at the end of this week, that’s not going to make this whole process any easier, right? The states will still get to do what the states are doing. Their shutdown efforts, or their re-qualification efforts, are not federally funded, but the people at CMS are.

Karlin-Smith: Yeah, that’ll just throw another thorn in this as we’re getting very, very likely headed towards a shutdown at this point on the 27th. So I think that’ll be another barrier for them regardless. And I mean, most CMS money isn’t even affected by the yearly budget anyways because it’s mandatory funding, but that’ll be a barrier for sure.

Rovner: So, speaking of the government shutdown, it still seems more likely than not that Congress will fail to pass either any of the 12 regular spending bills or a temporary measure to keep the lights on when the fiscal year ends at midnight Sunday. That would lead to the biggest federal shutdown since 2013 when, fun fact, the shutdown was an attempt to delay the rollout of the Affordable Care Act. What happens to health programs if the government closes? It’s kind of a big confusing mess, isn’t it?

Roubein: Yeah, well, what we know that would definitely continue and in the short term is Medicare and Medicaid, Obamacare’s federal insurance marketplace. Medicaid has funding for at least the next three months, and there’s research developing vaccines and therapeutics that HHS, they put out their kind of contingency “What happens if there’s a shutdown?” plan. But there’s some things that the White House and others are kind of trying to point to that would be impacted, like the National Institutes of Health may not be able to enroll new patients in clinical trials, the FDA may need to delay some food safety inspections, etc.

Rovner: Sarah, I actually forgot because, also fun fact, the FDA is not funded through the rest of the spending bill that includes the Department of Health and Human Services. It’s funded through the agriculture bill. So even though HHS wasn’t part of the last shutdown in 2018 and 2019, because the HHS funding bill had already gone through, the FDA was sort of involved, right?

Karlin-Smith: Right. So FDA is lumped with the USDA, the Agriculture Department, for the purposes of congressional funding, which is always fun for a health reporter who has to follow both of those bills. But FDA is always kind of a unique one with shutdown, because so much of their funding now is user fees, particularly for specific sections. So the tobacco part of FDA is almost 100% funded by user fees, so they’re not really impacted by a shutdown. Similarly, a lot of drug, medical device applications, and so forth also are totally funded by user fees, so their reviews keep going. That said, the way user fees are, they’re really designated to specific activities.

So, where there isn’t user fees and it’s not considered a critical kind of public health threat, things do shut down, like Rachel mentioned: a lot of food work and inspections, and even on the drug and medical device side, some activities that are related that you might think would continue don’t get funded.

Rovner: Sandhya, is there any possibility that this won’t happen? And that if it does happen, that it will get resolved anytime soon?

Raman: At this point, I don’t think that we can navigate it. So last night, the Senate put out their bipartisan proposal for a continuing resolution that you would attach as an amendment to the FAA, the Federal Aviation [Administration] reauthorization. And so that would temporarily extend a lot of the health programs through Nov. 17. The issue is that it’s not something that if they are able to pass that this week, they’d still have to go to the House. And the House has been pretty adamant that they want their own plan and that the CR that they were interested in had a lot more immigration measures, and things there.

And the House right now has been busy attempting to pass this week four of the 12 appropriations bills. And even if they finished the four that they did, that they have on their plate, that would still mean going to the Senate. And Biden has said he would veto those, and it’s still not the 12. So at this point, it is almost impossible for us to not at least see something short-term. But whether or not that’s long-term is I think a question mark in all the folks that I have been talking to about this right now.

Rovner: Yeah, we will know soon enough what’s going to happen. Well, meanwhile, because there’s not enough already going on, covid is back. Well, that depends how you define back. But there’s a lot more covid going around than there was, enough so that the federal government has announced a new round of free tests by mail. And there’s an updated covid vaccine — I think we’re not supposed to call it a booster — but its rollout has been bumpy. And this time it’s not the government’s fault. That’s because this year the vaccine is being distributed and paid for by mostly private insurance. And while lots of people probably won’t bother to get vaccinated this fall, the people who do want the vaccine are having trouble getting it. What’s happening? And how were insurers and providers not ready for this? We’d been hearing the updated vaccines would be available in mid-September for months, Sarah. I mean they really literally weren’t ready.

Karlin-Smith: Yeah. I mean, it’s not really clear why they weren’t ready, other than perhaps they felt they didn’t need to be, to some degree. I mean, normally, I know I was reading actually because we’ve also recently gotten RSV [respiratory syncytial virus] vaccine approvals — normally they actually have almost like a year, I think, to kind of add vaccines to plans and schedules and so forth, and pandemic covid-related laws really shortened the time for covid. So they should have been prepared and ready. They knew this was coming. And people are going to pharmacies, or going to a doctor’s appointment, and they’re being told, “Well, we can give you the vaccine, but your insurance plan isn’t set up to cover it yet, even though technically you should be.” There seems like there’s also been lots of distribution issues where again, people are going to sites where they booked appointments, and they’re saying, “Oh, actually we ran out.” They’re trying another site. They’ve run out.

So, it’s sort of giving people a sense of the difference of what happens when sort of the government shepherds an effort and everybody — things are a bit simplified, because you don’t have to think about which site does your insurance cover. There is a program for people who don’t have insurance now who can get the vaccine for free, but again, you’re more limited in where you can go. There’s not these big free clinics; that’s really impacting childhood vaccinations, because, again, a lot of children can’t get vaccinated at the pharmacy. So I think people are being reminded of what normal looked like pre-covid, and they’re realizing maybe we didn’t like this so much after all.

Rovner: Yeah, it’s not so efficient either. All the people who said, “Oh, the private sector could do this so much more efficiently than the government.” And it’s like, we’re ending up with pretty much the same issues, which is the people who really want the vaccine are chasing around and not finding it. And I know HHS Secretary Becerra went and had this event at a D.C. pharmacy where he was going to get his vaccine. And I think the event was intended to encourage people to go get vaccinated, but it happened right at the time when the big front surge of people who wanted to get vaccinated couldn’t find the vaccine.

Karlin-Smith: I think that’s a big concern because we’ve had such low uptake of booster or additional covid shots over the past couple of years. So the people who are sort of the most go-getters, the ones who really want the shots, are having trouble and feeling a bit defeated. What does that mean for the people that are less motivated to get it, who may not make a second or third attempt if it’s not easy? We sort of know, and I think public health folks kind of beat the drum, that sort of just meeting people where they are, making it easy, easy, easy, is really how you get these things done. So it’s hard to see how we can improve uptake this year when it’s become more complicated, which I think is going to be a big problem moving forward.

Rovner: Yeah. Right. And clearly these are issues that will be ironed out probably in the next couple of weeks. But I think what people are going to remember, who are less motivated to go get their vaccines, is, “Oh my God, these people I know tried to get it and it took them weeks. And they showed up for their appointment and they couldn’t get it.” And it’s like, “It was just too much trouble and I can’t deal with it.” And there’s also, I think you mentioned that there’s an issue with kids who are too young to get the vaccine too, right?

Karlin-Smith: Right. Still, I think people forget that you have to be 6 months to get the vaccine. If you’re under 3, you basically cannot get it in a pharmacy, so you have to get it in a doctor’s office. But a lot of people are reporting online their doctor’s office sort of stopped providing covid vaccines. So they’re having trouble just finding where to go. It seems like the distribution of shots for younger children has also been a bit slower as well. And again, this is a population where just even primary series uptake has been a problem. And people are in this weird gap now where, if you can’t get access to the new covid vaccine but your kid is eligible, the old vaccine isn’t available.

So you’re sort of in this gap where your kid might not have had any opportunity yet to get a covid vaccine, and there’s nothing for them. I think we forget sometimes that there are lots of groups of people that are still very vulnerable to this virus — including newborn babies who haven’t been exposed at all, and haven’t gotten a chance to get vaccinated.

Rovner: Yeah. So this is obviously still something that we need to continue to look at. Well, meanwhile, mask mandates are making a comeback, albeit a very small one. And they are not going over well. I’ve personally been wearing a mask lately because I’m traveling later this week and next, and don’t want to get sick, at least not in advance. But masks are, if anything, even more controversial and political than they were during the height of the pandemic. Does public health have any ideas that could help reverse that trend? Or are there any other things we could do? I’ve seen some plaintiff complaints that we’ve not done enough about ventilation. That could be something where it could help, even if people won’t or don’t want to wear masks. I mean, I’m surprised that vaccination is still pretty much our only defense.

Karlin-Smith: I think with masks, one thing that’s made it hard for different parts of the health system and lower-level kind of state public health departments to deal with masks is that the CDC [Centers for Disease Control and Prevention] recommendations around masking are pretty loose at this point. So The New York Times had a good article about hospitals and masking, and the kind of guidance around triggers they’ve given them are so vague. They kind of are left to make their own decisions. The CDC actually still really hasn’t emphasized the value of KN95 and N95 respirators over surgical masks. So I think it becomes really hard for those lower-level institutions to sort of push for something that is kind of controversial politically. And a lot of people are just tired of it when they don’t have the support of those bigger institutions saying it. And some of just even figuring out levels of the virus and when that should trigger masking.

It’s much harder to track nowadays because so much of our systems and data reporting is off. So, we have this sense we’re in somewhat of a surge now. Hospitalizations are up and so forth. But again, it’s a lot easier for people to make these decisions and figure out when to pull triggers when you have clear data that says, “This is what’s going on now.” And to some extent we’re … again, there’s a lot of evidence that points to a lot of covid going around now, but we don’t have that sort of hard data that makes it a lot easier for people to justify policy choices.

Raman: You just brought up ventilation and it took time, one, for some scientists to realize that covid is also spread through ultra-tiny particles. But it also took, after that, a while for the White House to pivot its strategy to stress ventilation measures in addition to masks, and face covering. So a lot of places are still kind of behind on having better ventilation in an office, or kind of wherever you’re going.

Rovner: Yeah, I mean, one would think that improving ventilation in schools would improve, not only not spreading covid, but not spreading all of the respiratory viruses that keep kids out of school and that make everybody sick during the winter, during the school year.

Roubein: I was going to piggyback on something Sarah said, which was about how the CDC doesn’t have clear benchmarks on when there should be a guideline for what is high transmission in the hospital for them to reinstate a mask mandate or whatever. But there’s also nuance to consider there. Within that there’s, is there a partial masking rule? Which is like: Does the health care staff have to wear them versus the patients? And does that have enough benefit on its own if it’s only required to one versus the other? I mean, I know that a lot of folks have called for more strict rules with that, but then there’s also the folks that are worried about the backlashes. This has gotten so politicized, how many different medical providers have talked about angst at them, attacks at them, over the polarization of covid? So there’s so many things that are intertwined there that it’s tough to institute something.

Karlin-Smith: I think the other thing is we keep forgetting this is not all about covid. We’ve learned a lot of lessons about public health that could be applicable, like you mentioned in schools, beyond covid. So if you’re in the emergency room, because you have cancer and you need to see a doctor right away. And you’re sitting next to somebody with RSV or the flu, it would also be beneficial to have that patient wearing a mask because if you have cancer, you do not need to add one of these infectious diseases on top of it. So it’s just been interesting, I think, for me to watch because it seemed like at different points in this crisis, we were sort of learning things beyond covid for how it could improve our health care system and public health. But for the most part, it seems like we’ve just kind of gone back to the old ways without really thinking about what we could incorporate from this crisis that would be beneficial in the future.

Rovner: I feel like we’ve lost the “public” in public health. That everybody is sort of, it’s every individual for him or herself and the heck with everybody else. Which is exactly the opposite of how public health is supposed to work. But perhaps we will bounce back. Well, moving on. The Biden administration, via the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, the CFPB, took the first steps last week to ban medical debt from credit scores, which would be a huge step for potentially tens of millions of Americans whose credit scores are currently affected by medical debt. Last year, the three major credit bureaus, Equifax, Experian, and TransUnion, agreed not to include medical debt that had been paid off, or was under $500 on their credit reports. But that still leaves lots and lots of people with depressed scores that make it more expensive for them to buy houses, or rent an apartment, or even in some cases to get a job. This is a really big deal if medical debt is going to be removed from people’s credit reports, isn’t it?

Roubein: Yeah. I think that was an interesting move when they announced that this week. Because the CFPB had mentioned that in a report they did last year, 20% of Americans have said that they had medical debt. And it doesn’t necessarily appear on all credit reports, but like you said, it can. And having that financial stress while going through a health crisis, or someone in your family going through a health crisis, is layers upon layers of difficulty. And they had also said in their report that medical billing data is not an accurate indicator of whether or not you’ll repay that debt compared to other types of credit. And it also has the layers of insurance disputes, and medical billing errors, and all that sort of thing. So this proposal that they have ends up being finalized as a rule, it could be a big deal. Because some states have been trying to do this on a state-by-state level, but still in pretty early stages in terms of a lot of states being on board. So this can be a big thing for a fifth of people.

Rovner: Yeah, many people. I’m going to give a shout-out here to my KFF Health News colleague Noam Levey, who’s done an amazing project on all of this, and I think helped sort of push this along. Well, while we are on the subject of the Biden administration and money in health care, the Federal Trade Commission is suing a private equity-backed doctors group, U.S. Anesthesia Partners, charging anti-competitive behavior, that it’s driving up the price of anesthesia services by consolidating all the big anesthesiology practices in Texas, among other things. FTC Chair Lina Khan said the agency “will continue to scrutinize and challenge serial acquisitions roll-ups and other stealth consolidation schemes that unlawfully undermine fair competition and harm the American public.” This case is also significant because the FTC is suing not just the anesthesia company, but the private equity firm that backs it, Welsh, Carson, Anderson & Stowe, which is one of the big private equity firms in health care. Is this the shot across the bow for private equity and health care that a lot of people have been waiting for? I mean, we’ve been talking about private equity and health care for three or four years now.

Karlin-Smith: I think that’s what the FTC is hoping for. They’re saying not just that we’re going after anti-competitive practices in health care, that, I think, they’re making a clear statement that they’re going after this particular type of funder, which we’ve seen has proliferated around the system. And I think this week there was a report from the government showing that CMS can’t even track all of the private equity ownership of nursing homes. So we know this isn’t the only place where doctors’ practices being bought up by private equity has been seen as potentially problematic. So this has been a very sort of activist, I think, aggressive FTC in health care in general, and in a number of different sectors. So I think they’re ready to deliberate, with their actions and warnings.

Rovner: Yeah, it’s interesting. I mean, we mostly think, those of us who have followed the FTC in healthcare, which gets pretty nerdy right there, usually think of big hospital groups trying to consolidate, or insurers trying to consolidate these huge mega-mergers. But what’s been happening a lot is these private equity companies have come in and bought up physician practices. And therefore they become the only providers of anesthesia, or the only providers of emergency care, or the only providers of kidney dialysis, or the only providers of nursing homes, and therefore they can set the prices. And those are not the level of deals that tend to come before the FTC. So I feel like this is the FTC saying, “See you little people that are doing big things, we’re coming for you too.” Do we think this might dampen private equity’s enthusiasm? Or is this just going to be a long-drawn-out struggle?

Roubein: I could see it being more of a long-drawn-out struggle because even if they’re showing it as an example, there’s just so many ways that this has been done in so many kind of sectors as you’ve seen. So I think it remains to be seen further down the line as this might happen in a few different ways to a few different folks, and how that kind of plays out there. But it might take some time to get to that stage.

Karlin-Smith: I was going to say it’s always worth also thinking about just the size and budget of the FTC in comparison to the amount of private actors like this throughout the health system. So I mean, I think that’s one reason sometimes why they do try and kind of use that grandstanding symbolic messaging, because they can’t go after every bad actor through that formal process. So they have to do the signaling in different ways.

Raman: I think probably as we’ve all learned as health reporters, it takes a really long time for there to be change in the health care system.

Rovner: And I was just going to say, one thing we know about people who are in health care to make money is that they are very creative in finding ways to do it. So whatever the rules are, they’re going to find ways around them and we will just sort of keep playing this cat and mouse for a while. All right, well finally this week, a story that probably should have gotten more attention. The White House last week announced creation of the first-ever Office of Gun Violence Prevention to be headed by Vice President Kamala Harris. Its role will be to help implement the very limited gun regulation passed by Congress in 2022, and to coordinate other administration efforts to curb gun violence. I know that this is mostly for show, but sometimes don’t you really have to elevate an issue like this to get people to pay attention, to point out that maybe you’re trying to do something? Talk about things that have been hard for the government to do over the last couple of decades.

Raman: It took Congress a long time to then pass a new gun package, which the shooting in Uvalde last year ended up catalyzing. And Congress actually got something done, which was more limited than some gun safety advocates wanted. But it does take a lot to get gun safety reform across the finish line.

Rovner: I know. I mean, it’s one of those issues that the public really, really seems to care about, and that the government really, really, really has trouble doing. I’ve been covering this so long, I remember when they first banned gun violence research at HHS back in the mid-1990s. That’s how far back I go, that they were actually doing it. And the gun lobby said, “No, no, no, no, no. We don’t really want these studies that say that if you have a gun in the house, it’s more likely to injure somebody, and not necessarily the bad guy.” They were very unhappy, and it took until three or four years ago for that to be allowed to be funded. So maybe the idea that they’re elevating this somewhat, to at least wave to the public and say, “We’re trying. We’re fighting hard. We’re not getting very far, but we’re definitely trying.” So I guess we will see how that comes out.

All right, well that is this week’s news. Now, we will play my “Bill of the Month” interview with Sam Liss, and then we’ll come back with our extra credits. I am pleased to welcome to the podcast my KFF Health News colleague Samantha Liss, who reported and wrote the latest KFF Health News-NPR “Bill of the Month” installment. Welcome.

Liss: Hi.

Rovner: This month’s bill involves a patient who died in the hospital, right? Tell them who he was, what he was sick with, and about his family.

Liss: Yeah. So Kent Reynolds died after a lengthy hospital stay in February of 2022. He was actually discharged after complications from colon cancer, and died in his home. And his widow, Eloise Reynolds, was left with a series of complicated hospital bills, and she reached out to us seeking help after she couldn’t figure them out. And her and Kent were married for just shy of 34 years. They lived outside of St. Louis and they have two adult kids.

Rovner: So Eloise Reynolds received what she assumed was the final hospital bill after her husband died, which she paid, right?

Liss: Yeah, she did. She paid what she thought was the final bill for $823, but a year later she received another bill for $1,100. And she was confused as to why she owed it. And no one could really give her a sufficient answer when she reached out to the hospital system, or the insurance company.

Rovner: Can a hospital even send you a bill a year after you’ve already paid them?

Liss: You know what, after looking into this, we learned that yeah, they actually can. There’s not much in the way that stops them from coming after you, demanding more money, months, or even years later.

Rovner: So this was obviously part of a dispute between the insurance company and the hospital. What became of the second bill, the year-later bill?

Liss: Yeah. After Eloise Reynolds took out a yardstick and went line by line through each charge and she couldn’t find a discrepancy or anything that had changed, she reached out to KFF Health News for help. And she was still skeptical about the bill and didn’t want to pay it. And so when we reached out to the health system, they said, “Actually, you know what? This is a clerical error. She does not owe this money.” And it sort of left her even more frustrated, because as she explained to us, she says, “I think a lot of people would’ve ended up paying this additional amount.”

Rovner: So what’s the takeaway here? What do you do if you suddenly get a bill that comes, what seems, out of nowhere?

Liss: The experts we talked to said Eloise did everything right. She was skeptical. She compared, most importantly, the bills that she was getting from the hospital system against the EOBs that she was getting from her insurance company.

Rovner: The explanation of benefits form.

Liss: That’s right. The explanation of benefits. And she was comparing those two against one another, to help guide her on what she should be doing. And because those were different between the two of them, she was left even more confused. I think folks that we spoke to said, “Yeah, she did the right thing by pushing back and demanding some explanations.”

Rovner: So I guess the ultimate lesson here is, if you can’t get satisfaction, you can always write to us.

Liss: Yeah, I hate to say that in a way, because that’s a hard solution to scale for most folks. But yeah, I mean, I think it points to just how confusing our health care system is. Eloise seemed to be a pretty savvy health care consumer, and she even couldn’t figure it out. And she was pretty tenacious in her pursuit of making phone calls to both the insurance company and the hospital system. And I think when she couldn’t figure that out, and she finally turned to us asking for help.

Rovner: So well, another lesson learned. Samantha Liss, thank you very much for joining us.

Liss: Thanks.

Rovner: Hey, “What the Health?” listeners, you already know that few things in health care are ever simple. So, if you like our show, I recommend you also listen to “Tradeoffs,” a podcast that goes even deeper into our costly, complicated, and often counterintuitive health care system. Hosted by longtime health care journalist and friend Dan Gorenstein, “Tradeoffs” digs into the evidence and research data behind health care policies and tells the stories of real people impacted by decisions made in C-suites, doctors’ offices, and even Congress. Subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts.

OK, we’re back. It’s time for our extra-credit segment. That’s when we each recommend a story we read this week we think you should read too. As always, don’t worry if you miss it. We will post the links on the podcast page at kffhealthnews.org, and in our show notes on your phone or other mobile device. Sarah, you were the first to choose this week, so you get to go first.

Karlin-Smith: Sure. I looked at a story in the Los Angeles Times, “California Workers Who Cut Countertops Are Dying of an Incurable Disease,” by Emily Alpert Reyes and Cindy Carcamo. Hopefully I didn’t mispronounce her name. They wrote a really fascinating but sad story about people working in an industry where they’re cutting engineered stone countertops for people’s kitchens and so forth. And because of the materials in this engineered product, they’re inhaling particles that is basically giving people at a very young age incurable and deadly lung disease. And it’s an interesting public health story about sort of the lack of protection in place for some of the most vulnerable workers. It seems like this industry is often comprised of immigrant workers. Some who kind of essentially go to … outside a Home Depot, the story suggests, or something like that and kind of get hired for day labor.

So they just don’t have the kind of power to sort of advocate for protections for themselves. And it’s just also an interesting story to think about, as consumers I think people are not always aware of the costs of the products they’re choosing. And how that then translates back into labor, and the health of the people producing it. So, really fascinating, sad piece.

Rovner: Another product that you have to sort of … I remember when they first were having the stories about the dust in microwave popcorn injuring people. Sandhya, why don’t you go next?

Raman: So my extra credit this week is from NPR and it’s by Meg Anderson. And it’s called “1 in 4 Inmate Deaths Happen in the Same Federal Prison. Why?” This is really interesting. It’s an investigation that looks at the deaths of individuals who died either while serving in federal prison or right after. And they looked at some of the Bureau of Prisons data, and it showed that 4,950 people had died in custody over the past decade. But more than a quarter of them were all in one correctional facility in Butner, North Carolina. And the investigation found out that the patients here and nationwide are dying at a higher rate, and the incarcerated folks are not getting care for serious illnesses — or very delayed care, until it’s too late. And the Butner facility has a medical center, but a lot of times the inmates are being transferred there when it was already too late. And then it’s really sad the number of deaths is just increasing. And just, what can be done to alleviate them?

Rovner: It was a really interesting story. Rachel.

Roubein: My extra credit, the headline is “A Decades-Long Drop in Teen Births Is Slowing, and Advocates Worry a Reversal Is Coming,” by Catherine Sweeney from WPLN, in partnership with KFF Health News. And she writes about the national teen birth rate and how it’s declined dramatically over the past three decades. And that, essentially, it’s still dropping, but preliminary data released in June from the CDC shows that that descent may be slowing. And Catherine had talked to doctors and other service providers and advocates, who essentially expressed concern that the full CDC dataset release later this year can show a rise in teen births, particularly in Southern states. And she talked to experts who pointed to several factors here, including the Supreme Court’s decision to overturn Roe v. Wade, intensifying political pushback against sex education programs, and the impact of the pandemic on youth mental health.

Rovner: Yeah. There’ve been so many stories about the decline in teen birth, which seemed mostly attributable to them being able to get contraception. To get teens not to have sex was less successful than getting teens to have safer sex. So we’ll see if that tide is turning. Well, I’m still on the subject of health costs this week. My story is a study from JAMA Internal Medicine that was conducted in part by Shark Tank panelist Mark Cuban, for whom health price transparency has become something of a crusade. This study is of a representative sample of 60 hospitals of different types conducted by researchers from the University of Texas. And it assessed whether the online prices posted for two common procedures, vaginal childbirth and a brain MRI, were the same as the prices given when a consumer called to ask what the price would be. And surprise. Mostly they were not. And often the differences were very large. In fact, to quote from the study, “For vaginal childbirth, there were five hospitals with online prices that were greater than $20,000, but telephone prices of less than $10,000. The survey was done in the summer of 2022, which was a year and a half after hospitals were required to post their prices online.” At some point, you have to wonder if anything is going to work to help patients sort out the prices that they are being charged for their health care. Really eye-opening study.

All right, that is our show for this week. As always, if you enjoy the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left us a review; that helps other people find us, too. Special thanks as always to our amazing engineer, Francis Ying. Also, as always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org. Or you can still find me at X, @jrovner. Sarah.

Karlin-Smith: I’m @SarahKarlin, or @sarahkarlin-smith.

Rovner: Sandhya.

Raman: @SandhyaWrites

Rovner: Rachel.

Roubein: @rachel_roubein

Rovner: We will be back in your feed next week. Until then, be healthy.

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A puppy recently tested positive for rabies and was euthanized in New Mexico, according to a news release from the state’s health department.

The animal, located in Bernalillo County, had shown signs that included tremors, lack of coordination and agitation. 

Health officials said the pup might have contracted the virus while in Texas, the news release stated.

Six people exposed to the puppy were treated with post-exposure rabies shots as a precautionary measure. This was New Mexico’s first canine rabies case in 10 years, according to the release.

ARIZONA DOG WHO REUNITED WITH HIS FAMILY AFTER GOING MISSING FOR 12 YEARS HAS DIED

"Young puppies are especially vulnerable to various infectious diseases, including rabies, parvovirus and distemper, until they've completed their full vaccine series," said Erin Phipps, the state public health veterinarian, in the release. 

"It's worth noting that rabies has a prolonged incubation period, often lasting weeks or months from infection to symptom onset, and animals become contagious only after symptoms appear," she added.

The puppy had not yet received its rabies vaccine due to its young age, the release stated.

Several other rabies cases have recently been reported throughout the United States. 

NEW YORK DOG WHO LOVES TO PLAY FETCH AND GO TO THE BEACH IS UP FOR ADOPTION: MEET BO 

On Sept. 6, Caldwell County Animal Care Enforcement in North Carolina reported the county’s third case of rabies this year, after a bat that encountered dogs was sent to be tested by the North Carolina State Laboratory. 

On Sept. 11 in Wisconsin, the Racine County Public Health Division reported its second rabies case of this year after a bat tested positive for rabies.

In New York, the Dutchess County Department of Behavioral & Community Health warned residents about a rabid raccoon that was captured in Hopewell Junction in August.

Each year, nearly 60,000 people die from rabies around the world.

Approximately a quarter of those deaths reported in the U.S. resulted from dog bites that the victims sustained during international travel, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) stated on its website. 

RABIES PATIENT BECOMES FIRST FATAL CASE IN US AFTER POST-EXPOSURE TREATMENT, REPORT SAYS

Rabies is a "100% preventable disease" through the vaccination of pets, the CDC said.

"The best way to prevent an outbreak of rabies is to vaccinate," noted Dr. Jeffrey Krasnoff, a veterinarian at Brookville Animal Clinic on Long Island, New York.

Rabies is a highly contagious virus that is transmitted through the saliva of infected animals through a bite, Krasnoff told Fox News Digital.

"The most obvious signs that an animal has rabies are aggressive behavior and excessive salivation," he said. "In wild animals, signs can include being out and about during the day, as well as exhibiting abnormal behavior, aggressive behavior and excessive salivation."

Rabies poses a threat not only to pets, but can also prove deadly in humans if not treated in a timely manner, health experts told Fox News Digital.

The virus can be transmitted to a human through a bite, or by the infected animal’s saliva getting into a person's eyes, nose, mouth or a break in the skin. 

WHAT TO DO IF A RABIES-INFECTED ANIMAL BITES YOU?

"Symptoms of rabies infection include fever, headaches, excessive salivation, muscle spasms, confusion and even paralysis," Dr. Fred Davis, associate chair of emergency medicine at Northwell Health on Long Island, New York, told Fox News Digital.

"The key is to seek treatment before such signs develop, as there is no specific treatment to stop the infection, and only vaccination can help prevent the infection from occurring," he added.

Typical treatment includes a series of rabies shots.

Anyone who has been in contact with the saliva of such animals as dogs, bats, coyotes, foxes, skunks or raccoons — especially if the encounter occurred during the day, when most of these animals are nocturnal, or if the animal in question is acting erratic — should seek immediate emergency treatment, Davis said.

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Krasnoff explained that when an animal bites a human, it is recommended that the veterinarian call the state’s Department of Health for instructions, which may include a 10-day quarantine and testing of the animal. 

It is also important for pet owners to check with their vet to ensure that the animal is up-to-date with rabies vaccinations.

Health agencies said that if an animal tests positive for rabies, it is usually euthanized.

"Due to rabies being so contagious to animals and humans, the course of action is euthanasia of a suspected rabid animal," Krasnoff told Fox News Digital.

Currently, the World Health Organization (WHO) is working on a collaborative global effort called Zero by 30, with the goal of eliminating dog-mediated human rabies deaths by 2030. 

The agency designated Sept. 28 as World Rabies Day to help raise awareness of how to prevent rabies and to help ensure that post-exposure prophylaxis (preventive medical treatment) is available to everyone.

"The world has the vaccines, medicines, tools and technologies to break the cycle of one of the oldest diseases," WHO says on its website. 

"Together in unity, we can eliminate rabies, leaving no one behind."

For more Health articles, visit www.foxnews.com/health.

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Emmarie Huetteman
KFF Health News

Emmarie Huetteman, associate Washington editor, previously spent more than a decade reporting on the federal government, most recently covering surprise medical bills, drug pricing reform, and other health policy debates in Washington and on the campaign trail.

The annual U.S. Census Bureau report this week revealed a drop in the uninsured rate last year as more working-age people obtained employer coverage. However, this year’s end of pandemic-era protections — which allowed many people to stay on Medicaid — is likely to have changed that picture quite a bit since. Meanwhile, reports show even many of those with insurance continue to struggle to afford their health care costs, and some providers are encouraging patients to take out loans that tack interest onto their medical debt.

Also, a mystery is unfolding in the federal budget: Why has recent Medicare spending per beneficiary leveled off? And the CDC recommends anyone who isat least 6 months old get the new covid booster.

This week’s panelists are Emmarie Huetteman of KFF Health News, Margot Sanger-Katz of The New York Times, Sarah Karlin-Smith of the Pink Sheet, and Joanne Kenen of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico.

Panelists

Sarah Karlin-Smith
Pink Sheet

@SarahKarlin

Read Sarah's stories

Joanne Kenen
Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico

@JoanneKenen

Read Joanne's stories

Margot Sanger-Katz
The New York Times

@sangerkatz

Read Margot's stories

Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:

• The Census Bureau reported this week that the uninsured rate dropped to 10.8% in 2022, down from 11.6% in 2021, driven largely by a rise in employer-sponsored coverage. Since then, pandemic-era coverage protections have lapsed, though it remains to be seen exactly how many people could lose Medicaid coverage and stay uninsured.
• A concerning number of people who have insurance nonetheless struggle to afford their out-of-pocket costs. Medical debt is a common, escalating problem, exacerbated now as hospitals and other providers direct patients toward bank loans, credit cards, and other options that also saddle them with interest.
• Some state officials are worried that people who lose their Medicaid coverage could choose short-term health insurance plans with limited benefits — so-called junk plans — and find themselves owing more than they’d expect for future care.
• Meanwhile, a mystery is unfolding in the federal budget: After decades of warnings about runaway government spending, why has spending per Medicare beneficiary defied predictions and leveled off? At the same time, private insurance costs are increasing, with employer-sponsored plans expecting their largest increase in more than a decade.
• And the push for people to get the new covid booster is seeking to enshrine it in Americans’ annual preventive care regimen.

Plus, for “extra credit,” the panelists suggest health policy stories they read this week that they think you should read, too:

Emmarie Huetteman: KFF Health News’ “The Shrinking Number of Primary Care Physicians Is Reaching a Tipping Point,” by Elisabeth Rosenthal.

Sarah Karlin-Smith: MedPage Today’s “Rural Hospital Turns to GoFundMe to Stay Afloat,” by Kristina Fiore.

Joanne Kenen: ProPublica’s “How Columbia Ignored Women, Undermined Prosecutors and Protected a Predator for More Than 20 Years,” by Bianca Fortis and Laura Beil.

Margot Sanger-Katz: Congressional Budget Office’s “Raising the Excise Tax on Cigarettes: Effects on Health and the Federal Budget.”

Also mentioned in this week’s episode:

• U.S. Census Bureau’s “Health Insurance Coverage of U.S. Workers Increased in 2022,” by Rachel Lindstrom, Katherine Keisler-Starkey, and Lisa Bunch.
• The Commonwealth Fund’s “Can Older Adults with Employer Coverage Afford Their Health Care?” by Lauren A. Haynes and Sara R. Collins.
• KFF Health News’ “What One Lending Company’s Hospital Contracts Reveal About Financing Patient Debt,” by Noam N. Levey.
• The New York Times’ “A Huge Threat to the U.S. Budget Has Receded. And No One Is Sure Why,” by Margot Sanger-Katz, Alicia Parlapiano, and Josh Katz.
• The Wall Street Journal’s “Health-Insurance Costs Are Taking Biggest Jumps in Years,” by Anna Wilde Mathews.
• The New York Times’ “The N.Y.C. Neighborhood That’s Getting Even Thinner on Ozempic,” by Joseph Goldstein.

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Transcript: Underinsured Is the New Uninsured

KFF Health News’ ‘What the Health?’

Episode Title: Underinsured Is the New Uninsured

Episode Number: 314

Published: Sept. 14, 2023

[Editor’s note: This transcript, generated using transcription software, has been edited for style and clarity.]

Emmarie Huetteman: Hello and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Emmarie Huetteman, a Washington editor for KFF Health News. I’m filling in for Julie [Rovner] this week, who’s on vacation. And I’m joined by some of the best and smartest health reporters in Washington. We’re taping this week on Thursday, Sept. 14, at 11 a.m. As always, news happens fast, and things might have changed by the time you hear this. So, here we go. We’re joined today by video conference by Margot Sanger-Katz of The New York Times.

Margot Sanger-Katz: Good morning, everybody.

Huetteman: Sarah Karlin-Smith of the Pink Sheet.

Sarah Karlin-Smith: Hi there.

Huetteman: And Joanne Kenen of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico.

Joanne Kenen: Hi, everybody.

Huetteman: No interview this week, so let’s get right to the news. The percentage of working-age adults with health insurance went up last year, according to the annual Census report out this week. As a result, the uninsured rate dropped to 10.8% in 2022. But lower uninsured rates may be obscuring another problem: the number of people who are underinsured and facing high out-of-pocket costs. The Commonwealth Fund released a report last month on how difficult it is for many older adults with employer coverage to afford care. And recent reporting here at KFF Health News has probed how medical providers are steering patients toward bank loans and credit cards that saddled them with interest on top of their medical debt. So, the number of people without insurance is dropping. But that doesn’t mean that health care is becoming more affordable. So what does it mean to be underinsured? Are the policy conversations that focus on the uninsured rate missing the mark?

Sanger-Katz: So, two things I would say. One is that I even think that the Census report on what’s happening with the uninsured is obscuring a different issue, which is that there’s been this artificial increase in the number of people who are enrolled in Medicaid as a result of this pandemic policy. So the Congress said to the states, if you want to get extra money for your Medicaid program through the public health emergency, then you can’t kick anyone out of Medicaid regardless of whether they are no longer eligible for the program. And that provision expired this spring. And so this is one of the big stories in health policy that’s happening this year. States are trying to figure out how to reevaluate all of these people who have been in their Medicaid program for all these years and determine who’s eligible and who’s not eligible. And there’s been quite a lot of very good reporting on what’s going on. And I think there’s a combination of people who are losing their Medicaid coverage because they really genuinely are no longer eligible for Medicaid. And there also appears to be quite a large number of people who are losing their Medicaid coverage for administrative hiccup reasons — because there’s some paperwork error, or because they moved and they didn’t get a letter, or some other glitch in the system. And so when I looked at these numbers on the uninsured rate, in some ways what it told us is we gave a whole bunch of people insurance through these public programs during the pandemic and that depressed the uninsured rate. But we know right now that millions of people have lost insurance, even in the last few months, with more to come later this year. And so I’m very interested in the next installment of the Census report when we get back to more or less a normal Medicaid system, how many people will be without insurance. So that’s just one thing. And then just to get to your question, I think having insurance does not always mean that you can actually afford to pay for the health care that you need. We’ve seen over the last few decades a shift towards higher-deductible health care plans where people have to pay more money out-of-pocket before their insurance kicks in. We’ve also seen other kinds of cost sharing increase, where people have to pay higher copayments or a percentage of the cost of their care. And we’ve also seen, particularly in the Obamacare exchanges, but also in the employer market, that there’s a lot of insurance that doesn’t include any kind of out-of-network benefit. So it means, you know, if you can go to a provider who is covered by your insurance, your insurance will pay for it. But if you can’t find someone who’s covered by your insurance, you could still get hit with a big bill. The sort of surprise bills of old are banned. But, you know, the doctor can tell you in advance, and you can go and get all these medical services and then end up with some big bills. So whether or not just having an insurance card is really enough to ensure that people have access to health care remains an open question. And I think we have seen a lot of evidence over recent years that even people with insurance encounter a lot of financial difficulties when they get sick and often incur quite a lot of debt despite having insurance that protects them from the unlimited costs that they might face if they were uninsured.

Huetteman: Joanne.

Kenen: I would say two big things. The uninsurance rate, which we all think is going to go up because of this Medicaid unwinding, it’s worth stopping and thinking about. It’s what? 7.9[%]? Was that the number?

Huetteman: It was 10.8, was the uninsured rate last year.

Sanger-Katz: It depends if you look at any time of the year or all of the year.

Kenen: Back when the ACA [Affordable Care Act] was passed, it was closer to something like 18. So in terms of really changing the magnitude of the uninsurance problem in America, the work isn’t done. But this is a really significant change. Secondly, some aspects of care are better — or within reach because the ACA made so many preventive and primary care services free. That, too, is a gain. Obviously, through the medical debt, which KFF [Health News] now has done a great job — oh, and believe me, and other reporters, you’ve done an amazing job, story after story. You know, the “Bill of the Month” series that you edited, it’s … but they’re not isolated cases. It’s not like, oh, this person ran into this, you know, cost buzz saw. There’s insane pricing issues! And out-of-pocket and, you know, deductibles and extras, and incredibly hard to sort out even if you are a sophisticated, insured consumer of health care. Pricing is a mess. There have been changes to the health care market, in terms of consolidation of ownership, more private equity, bigger entities that just have created … added a new dimension to this problem. So have we made gains? We’ve made really important gains. Under the original ACA passed under the Obama administration and the changes, the access and generosity of subsidy changes that the Biden administration has made, even though they’re time-limited, they have to be renewed. But, you know, are people still being completely hit over the head and every other body part by really expensive costs? Yes. That is still a heartbreaking and really serious problem. I mean, I can just give one tiny incident where somebody … I needed a routine imaging thing in network. The doctor in that hospital wasn’t reachable. I had my primary care person send in the order because she’s not part of that health care system. She’s in network. The imaging center is in network. The doctor who told me I needed this test is in network. But because the actual order came from somebody not in their hospital and in … on the Maryland side of the line, instead of the D.C. side of the line, the hospital imaging center decided it was going to be out of network. And because she’s not ours and wanted to charge me an insane amount of money. I sorted it out. But it took me an insane amount of time and I shouldn’t have needed to do that.

Huetteman: Yeah, that’s absolutely true.

Kenen: I could have paid it, if I had to.

Huetteman: Absolutely. And as you noted, I do edit the “Bill of the Month” series. And we see that with all kinds of patients, even the most enterprising patients can’t get an answer to simple questions like, is this in network or out of network? Why did I get this bill? And it’s asking way too much of most people to try and fit that into the rest of the things that they do every day. You know, Margot brought up the Medicaid unwinding. Well, let’s speaking of insurance, let’s catch up there for a moment because there was a little news this week. We’re keeping an eye on those efforts to strip ineligible beneficiaries from state Medicaid rolls since the covid-19 public health emergency ended. Now, some state officials are worried that people who lose coverage could opt to replace it with short-term insurance plans. You might know them as “junk plans.” They often come with lower price tags, but these short-term plans do not have to follow the Affordable Care Act’s rules about what to cover. And people in the plans have found themselves owing for care they thought would be covered. The Trump administration expanded these plans, but this summer the Biden administration proposed limiting them once more. Remind us: What changes has Biden proposed for so-called junk plans and for people who lose their coverage during the Medicaid unwinding? What other options are available to them?

Sanger-Katz: So the Biden administration’s proposal was to basically return these short-term plans to actual short-term coverage, which is what they were designed to do. Part of what the Trump administration did is they kept this category of short-term plans. But then they said basically, well, you can just keep them for several years. And so they really became a more affordable but less comprehensive substitute for ACA-compliant insurance. So the Biden administration just wants to kind of squish ’em back down and say, OK, you can have them for like a couple of months, but you can’t keep them forever. I will say that a lot of people who are losing their Medicaid coverage as a result of the unwinding are probably pretty low on the income scale, just as a result of them having qualified for Medicaid in the first place. And so a very large share of them are eligible for free or close-to-free health plans on the Obamacare exchanges. Those enhanced subsidies that Joanne mentioned, they’re temporary, but they’re there for a few years. They really make a big difference for exactly this population that’s losing Medicaid coverage. If you’re just over the poverty line, you can often get a free plan that’s a — this is very technical, but — it’s a silver plan with these cost-sharing wraparound benefits. And so you end up with a plan where you really don’t have to pay very much at the point of care. You don’t have to pay anything in a premium. So I think, in general, that is the most obvious answer for most of these people who are losing their Medicaid. But I think it is a challenge to navigate that system, for states to help steer people towards these other options, and for them to get enrolled in a timely way. Because, of course, Obamacare markets are not open all the time. They’re open during an open enrollment period or for a short period after you lose another type of coverage.

Huetteman: Absolutely. And a lot of these states actually have efforts that are normally focused on open enrollment right now. And some officials say that they are redirecting those efforts toward helping these folks who are losing their Medicaid coverage to find the options, like those exchange plans that are available for zero-dollar premiums or low premiums under the subsidies available.

Kenen: I have seen some online ads from HHS [the Department of Health and Human Services], saying, you know, “Did you lose your Medicaid?” and it’s state-specific — “Did you lose your Medicaid in Virginia?” I don’t live in Virginia, so I’m not sure why I’m getting it. My phone is telling me the Virginia one. But there is an HHS [ad], and it is saying if you lost your Medicaid, go to healthcare.gov, we can help. You know, we may be able to help you. So they are outreaching, although I’m afraid that somebody who actually lost it in Virginia might be getting an ad about Nebraska or whatever. I live close to Virginia. It’s close enough. But there is some effort to reach people in a plain English, accessible pop-up on your phone, or your web browser, kind of way. So I have seen that over the last few weeks because the special enrollment period, I mean, most people who are no longer eligible for Medicaid are eligible for something, and something other than a junk plan. Some of them have insurance at work now because the job market is better than it was in 2020, obviously. Many people will be eligible for these highly subsidized plans that Margot just talked about. Very few people should be left out in the cold, but there’s a lot of work to be done to make those connections.

Huetteman: Absolutely. Absolutely. And going back to the Census report for a second, it had noted that a big part of the increase in coverage came from employer-sponsored coverage among working-age adults, although we have, of course, seen those reports that say … and then they try to afford their health care costs. And it’s really difficult for a lot of them, even when they have that insurance, as we talked about. All right. So let’s move on. The New York Times is reporting a mystery unfolding in the federal budget. And I’d like to call it “The Case of Flat Medicare Spending.” After decades of warnings about runaway government spending, a recent Times analysis shows that spending per Medicare beneficiary has actually leveled off over more than a decade. Meanwhile, The Wall Street Journal reports that private health insurance costs are climbing. Next year, employer-sponsored plans could see their biggest cost increase in more than a decade, and that trend could continue. So what’s going on with insurance costs? Let’s start with Medicare. Margot, you were the lead reporter on the Times analysis. What explains this Medicare spending slowdown?

Sanger-Katz: So part of the reason why I have found it to be a somewhat enjoyable story is that I think there is a bit of a mystery. I talked to lots of people who have studied and written about this phenomenon over the years, and I think there was no one I talked to who said “I 100% understand what is going on here. And I can tell you, here’s the thing.” But there are a bunch of factors that I think a lot of people think are contributing, and I’ll just run through them quickly. One of them is Medicare is getting a little younger. The baby boomers are retiring generally, like, 65-year-olds are a little cheaper to take care of than 85-year-olds. So as the age mix gets younger, we’ve seen the average cost of taking care of someone in Medicare get a little smaller. That’s like the easiest one. I think another one is that Obamacare and other legislative changes that Congress has passed during this period have just mechanically reduced the amount of money that Medicare is spending. So the two most obvious ways are, in the Affordable Care Act, Congress took money away from Medicare Advantage plans, paid them a smaller premium for taking care of patients, and they also reduced the amount that hospitals get every year, as what’s called a productivity adjustment. So hospitals get a little raise on their pay rates every year. And the legislation tamped that down. There was also, some listeners may remember, the budget sequester that happened in 2011, 2012, where there was kind of a haircut that Medicare had to take across the board. So there have been these kind of legislative changes. They explain like a little bit of what is going on. And now I think the rest of it really has to do with the health care system itself. And part of that seems to be that this has been a period of relatively limited technological improvement. So, you know, for years medicine just kept getting better and better. We had these miracle cures, we had these amazing surgeries. We, you know, especially like in the area of cardiovascular disease, just enormous advances in recent decades where, you know, first bypass surgery and then stents and then, you know, drugs that could prevent heart attacks. And so I think, you know, health care spending kept climbing and climbing in part because there was better stuff to spend it on. It was expensive, but it really improved people’s health. And in recent years, there’s just been a little less of that. There have clearly been medical advances, particularly in the pharmaceutical space. You know, we have better treatments for cancer, for certain types of cancers, than we had before and for other important diseases. But these expensive innovations tend to affect smaller percentages of people. We haven’t had a lot of really big blockbusters that everyone in Medicare is taking. And so that seems to explain some of the slowdown. And then I think the last piece is, like, kind of the piece that’s the hardest to really explain or pin down, but it seems like there’s just something different that doctors and hospitals are doing. They’re getting more efficient. They’re not always buying the latest and greatest thing, if there’s not evidence to support it. They’re reducing their medical errors. And, you know, I think Obamacare probably gets a share of the credit here. It really created a lot of changes in the way we pay for medical care and in the Medicare program itself. And it created this innovation center that’s supposed to test out all of these different things. But I think also over the same period, we’ve seen the private sector make many of the same moves. You know, private insurers have gotten a little bit more stingy about covering new technologies without evidence. They’ve tended to pay physicians and hospitals in bundles, or paying them incentives for quality, not paying them for certain types of care that involve errors. And so a lot of people I talked to said that they think the medical system is reacting to all of the payers crunching down on them. And so they’re just not being quite as aggressive and they’re trying to think more about value, which I feel like is like kind of a lame buzzword that often doesn’t mean anything. But I think, you know, it’s a way of thinking about this change. And, you know, that’s the kind of thing, if culturally that endures, you know, could continue into the future. Whereas some of these other factors, like the demographics, the lack of technological development, those — the Obamacare, which was kind of a one-time legislative change, you know — those things may not continue into the future, which is why the fact that we’ve had 15 years of flat Medicare spending is no guarantee that Medicare spending won’t spike again in the future. And I think you were right to point to what’s happening in the private sector, because private sector insurance premiums also have been like a little bit on the flat side through this period. And I think there is potential for them to take off again.

Huetteman: Absolutely. And that’s what The Wall Street Journal’s reporting had just said, that the health care costs for coming into next year are climbing. Let’s talk about that for a minute. Why are private insurance costs rising as Medicare spending levels off? One of the things that I noticed is we talked about technological innovation. Pharmaceutical innovation seems to be one of the things that’s contributing to rising private health insurance costs and elsewhere, in particular, those weight-loss drugs I know.

Kenen: And the Alzheimer’s drugs.

Huetteman: And the Alzheimer’s drugs.

Kenen: Eventually they’ll become more widely available. Sarah knows way more than the rest of us.

Karlin-Smith: The Alzheimer’s drugs will probably be less of an issue for the private health insurance population. But certainly weight-loss drugs are something that private insurers are worried about what percentage of the population they will cover with these drugs. And I think insurance companies, they have to balance that … difficult balance between what percentage of the drug cost rate you put on patients and what do you build into premiums. And sometimes there’s only so much flexibility they can have there. So I think that’s a big reason for what you’re seeing here.

Huetteman: Yeah, absolutely.

Sanger-Katz: I think the weight-loss drugs are interesting because they kind of are, potentially, an example of the kind of technology that is both expensive and good for public health, right? So, you know, when we have all these improvements in cardiac disease, like, that was great. People didn’t have heart attacks. They didn’t have disability in old age. They lived longer lives. That was great. But it cost a ton of money. And I think because we have been going through this period in which costs have been kind of level, and there hasn’t been a lot of expensive breakthrough technology, we haven’t had to weigh those things against each other in the way that we might now, where we might have to say, OK, well, like, this is really expensive, but also, like, it has a lot of benefits. and how do we decide what the right cost benefit is as a society, as an employer, as a public insurance program? And I think we’re going to see a lot of payers and economists and other analysts really thinking hard about these trade-offs in a way that they, I think, haven’t really been forced to do very much in the last few years with … I mean, maybe with the possible exception of those breakthrough therapies for hepatitis C —also expensive, huge public health benefit. And it was a struggle for our system to figure out what to do with them.

Kenen: But, like the statins, which, you know, revolutionized heart health, these drugs that are useful for both diabetes and … weight loss, the demand of people who just want them because they want to lose those 20 pounds, insurers are not — Medicare at least is not — covering it. Insurers have some rules about “Are you pre-diabetic?” and etc., etc., but they cost a lot of money and a lot of people want to take them. So I think they’re clearly great for diabetes. They clearly are a whole new class of drugs that are going to do good things. We still don’t. … There’s still questions about who should be using them for the rest of their lives, for weight control, etc., etc. Yes, there are going to be benefits, but this era of … what is the typical cost per month, Sarah?

Karlin-Smith: The list price of these drugs are thousands of dollars per month. But I think to your point, Joanne, though, the trouble for insurance companies who are figuring out how to cover this is they’re starting to get more research that there are these actual health benefits outside of just weight loss. And once you start to say, you know, that these drugs help prevent heart attacks and have hard evidence of that, it becomes harder for them to deny coverage. I think to Margot’s point of the long-term benefits, you might see to health because of it, we get back to another issue in the U.S. health system is, which is these private health insurance companies might essentially basically be footing the bill for benefits that Medicare is going to reap, not necessarily the insurance companies, right? So if somebody, you know, doesn’t have a heart attack at 50 because they’re on these drugs, that’s great. But if the savings is actually going to Medicare down the line, you know, the private health insurer doesn’t see the benefit of that. And that’s where some of the tensions you get into it in terms of, like, how we cover these products and who we give them to.

Kenen: Because that trade-off: quality of life and longevity of life. That’s what health is about, right? I mean, is having people live healthy, good lives, and it costs money. But there’s this issue of the drug prices have gotten very high, and hepatitis C is a perfect example. I mean, now it’s like we were freaked out about $84,000 in, you know, 2013, 2015, whenever that came out. You know, now that looks quaint. But that price was still so high that we didn’t get it to people. We could have wiped out hepatitis C or come damn close to wiping out hepatitis C, but the price the drug was an obstacle. So we’re still, I mean, there’s a big White House initiative now, you know, there’s creative … the Louisiana model of, you know, what they call the Netflix model where, you know, you have a contract to buy a whole ton of it for less per unit. I mean, these are still questions. Yes. I mean, we all know that certain drugs make a big difference. But if they’re priced at a point where people who need them the most can’t get them, then you’re not seeing what they’re really invented for.

Sanger-Katz: Oh, I was just going to say, I think that part of what interests me about this particular class of drugs and the debates that we are likely to have about them, and there are, you know, the way that they’re going to be adopted into our health care system is that setting aside the diabetes indication for a moment, the idea of drugs that effectively treat obesity, I think obesity is a very stigmatized disease in our country. And in fact, Medicare has statutory language that says that Medicare cannot cover drugs for weight loss. So it would actually require an act of Congress for these drugs to be approved for that purpose in Medicare. And in Medicaid, in general, states are required to cover FDA-approved drugs. You know, they can put some limitations, but they’re supposed to cover them. Again, there is a special statutory exclusion for weight-loss drugs where the states really have discretion they don’t have for a cancer drug, for a drug for diabetes, a drug for other common diseases. And so I do think that, you know, a lot of this debate is colored by people’s prejudices against people who have obesity, and the way that our medical care system has thought about them and the treatment for their disease over time. And I’m curious about that aspect of it as well. I mean, of course, I think that Joanne is absolutely right that we do not know long term how these drugs are going to help people with obesity, whether it’s really going to reduce the burden of disease down the road for them, whether it’s going to have other health consequences in an enduring way. You know, I think there are unknowns, but I think if you take the most optimistic possible look at these drugs, that there’s quite a lot of evidence that they really do improve people’s health. And if we treat these drugs differently than we would an expensive drug for an infectious disease like hepatitis C or different from an expensive drug for cancer diseases that are less stigmatized, I think that would maybe be a little bit sad.

Karlin-Smith: I mean certainly the reason why the initial restrictions in Medicare and other programs are baked in goes back to stigma to some degree. But also, I mean … because they were thinking of these as weight-loss drugs and sort of vanity treatments people would only be using for vanity. And at that time, the drugs that were available did not work quite as well and had a lot of dangers and certainly did not show any of these other health benefits that we’re starting to see with this new class of medicine. So I think that would be the hope that, you know, as the science and the products shift, as well as our medical understanding around what causes obesity, what doesn’t cause obesity, how much of it is … right, again, just as medical as any other condition and not all about a person’s behavior. And I think we will see that the benefits of some of these drugs for certain people, in particular, are probably a lot bigger than maybe the benefits of certain cancer treatments that we pay a lot more money for. The challenge is going to be the amount of people and the amount of time they are going to be on these drugs, right? You know, if you’re talking about these hepatitis C drugs, I think one reason they didn’t shock the budgets in the way people were expecting, besides the fact that, unfortunately, we didn’t get them to everybody, is they’re actually really short-term cures, right? I think it’s like 10 weeks or something.

Kenen: Some are like eight.

Karlin-Smith: Right. Ballpark. And with the obesity drugs, what we know … these new drugs so far is that you seem like you have to consistently take them. Once you get off them, the weight comes back. And then the assumption would be you lose all those health benefits. So we’re talking about a high-cost drug on a chronic basis that our system can’t afford.

Kenen: Margot, do you know? I mean, my guess is that the ban on covering weight-loss drugs was written into MMA [the Medicare Modernization Act] in 2003. That’s my guess. I don’t know if anyone …

Sanger-Katz: That’s right. Yeah. It was part of the creation of the drug benefit program.

Kenen: So I think that you’re totally right that it’s what both of you said. You know, we tended to say it was someone’s fault, like they didn’t have enough willpower. Or they, you know, didn’t do what they were supposed to do. And there was stigma and we thought about it diffrently. I also think the science, you know, Sarah alluded to this, I think the science of obesity has really changed, that we didn’t talk about it — even though obesity experts — really didn’t talk about it as a disease a generation ago. We thought of it as maybe as a risk factor, but we didn’t think of it as a disease in and of itself. And we now do know that. So I think that the coverage issues are going to change. But what are the criteria? How fast do they change, for who do they change? Do you really want to put somebody on a drug because they want to lose 10 or 15 punds, which is … versus someone who really has struggled with weight and has physical risk factors because of it, including, you know, heart disease, diabetes, all these other things we know about. I mean, I just think we don’t know. I mean, there was a piece in the Times about the Upper East Side of Manhattan is like this beehive of people taking these weight loss drugs because they can afford it, but they’re also thinner than the rest of the population. So it becomes, you know, a luxury good or another disparity.

Sanger-Katz: If insurance won’t cover these drugs ,of course, rich people are going to take them more than people of limited means. Right? Like, I think you can only really test the hypothesis of, like, who are these drugs meant to reach once … if you have coverage for them, right? I thought that story was very good, and it did reveal something that’s happening. But I also thought … it felt like it was focusing on the idea that that rich people were taking these drugs just for vanity. And I think …

Kenen: Some of them, not all clearly some of them.

Sanger-Katz: Some of them are, of course. But I thought the thing that was less explored in that story is all of the people in poor neighborhoods of New York who were not accessing those drugs. Was it because they couldn’t find any way to get them?

Kenen: Right, and some of them were pre-diabetic. Some of them. I mean, the other thing is people who are overweight are often pre-diabetic. And that is an indication. I mean, you can … it’s in flux. It’s going to change over the coming months, you know, but what a cost and how those benefits paid off and who’s going to end up paying and where the cost shifting is going to come, because there is always cost shifting. We just don’t know yet. But these drugs are here to stay. And there are questions. There are a lot of questions. The mounting evidence is that they are going to be a benefit. It’s just, you know, what do we pay for them? Who gets them? How long do the people stay on them, etc., etc., etc.

Sanger-Katz: And just to come back to Emmarie’s first question, like, what is this going to mean for our insurance premiums, right? With something like 40% of adults in the United States have obesity. If we start to see more and more people taking these drugs to treat this disease, all of us are going to have to pay for that in some way. And, you know, that affects overall health care.

Huetteman: Absolutely. Well, let’s move to the week’s big covid news now. This week, the FDA approved a new booster, which comes amid an uptick in cases and concerns about a surge this fall and winter. Before the CDC made its recommendations, though, there was debate over whether the booster should be recommended only for a couple of higher-risk groups. So who does the CDC say should get the shot? And what’s the response been like from the health care community so far?

Karlin-Smith: So the CDC decided their advisers and the CDC themselves to recommend the shot for everybody. That really didn’t surprise me because I think that was the direction FDA wanted to go as well. I think the majority came down to the fact that a broad recommendation would be the best for health equity and actually ensuring the people we really want to get the shots get them. If you start siphoning off the population and so forth, it actually might prevent people that really should get the shots from getting it. I think the booster debate has actually been really similar since we started approving covid boosters, which is that the companies that provided for the boosters is not the same as the original data they presented to get the vaccines approved. So we don’t have as much understanding with the type of rigorous research some people would like to know: OK, what is the added benefit you’re getting from these boosters? We know they provide some added benefit of protection for infection, but that’s very short-lived. And then I think there’s … people have differences of opinions of how much added protection it’s giving you from severe disease and death. And so there are factions who argue, and I think Paul Offit has become one of the most known and vocal cheerleaders of this mindset, which is that, well, actually, if you’ve already had, you know, two, three, four shots, you’ve already had covid, you’re probably really well protected against the worst outcomes. And these shots are not really going to do that much to protect you from an infection. “So why take them anymore?” — essentially, is sort of his mindset. And there are people that disagree. I think the thing that probably might help change mindsets is, at least in this country, probably not going to happen, which is, you know, more rigorous outcomes research here. But I think the sentiment of the CDC and its advice has been, well, these shots are extremely low risk and there’s at least some added benefit. So for most people, the risk-benefit balance is: Get it. And if you make it kind of simple, if you say, OK, you know, everybody, it’s time to get your next covid booster, the feeling is that will get the most people in the U.S. to go out and do it. Unfortunately, most covid booster recommendations have been fairly broad — the last, at least, and that hasn’t translated. But we’ll see. This is actually the first time that everyone, except for babies under 6 months — because you can’t start your covid vaccination until then —everybody is really included in the booster recommendation at the same time. In previous rounds, particularly for younger kids, it was more staggered. So this will be the simplest recommendation we have yet.

Kenen: And that’s part of the public health strategy, is to not talk about it so much as boosters, just as an annual shot. The way you get an annual flu shot. I mean, most people don’t get them. But the idea is that to normalize this, you know, you get an annual flu shot, you get an annual covid shot, for certain age groups you get annual RSV now that’ll be available. But that’s not for everybody. I mean, I think they really want to make this simple. OK, it’s fall, get your covid shot. We don’t think uptake is going to be real high. It hasn’t been for boosters. But in terms of trying to change, this is just, you know, this is one of those things to add to your to-do list this year and to, sort of, less “pandemicize” it. I don’t think that’s a word. But, you know, everyone will forgive me. And more just, you know, OK, you know, this is one of the things you got to do in the fall. Maybe “pandemicize” is a word or maybe it should be.

Sanger-Katz: I like it. Maybe we should use it.

Huetteman: Pandemicize your care.

Kenen: Right. You know, it’s part of your preventive care and just … I mean, good luck trying to de-politicize it. But that’s part of it. I mean, the CDC director, Mandy Cohen, she wrote an op-ed this week and it was all about, you know, I’m a doctor, I’m the CDC director, and I’m a mom. And, you know, my family is going to get it. You know, Ashish Jha was tweeting about how he’s going to get it, his elderly parents are going to get theirs as soon as possible, etc., etc. So it’s not going to be … the hard-core people who really don’t want these shots and haven’t taken the shots and believe the shots cause more harm than good, etc. It won’t change a lot of their minds. But there are a lot of people who are uncertain in the middle and their minds can be changed. And they have … they were changed in the initial round of shots. So that’s who the messaging is … it’s sort of a reminder to people who take the shots and an invitation to those who … haven’t been getting boosted that just start doing this every year.

Karlin-Smith: And it is important to emphasize when the boosters have been tweaked and, you know, updated to try to match as close as they possibly can the current version of the virus. The virus has evolved and shifted a lot over time to the point where even these boosters, you know, they can’t quite keep up with the virus. But the idea is that we’re helping broaden everybody’s protection by keeping it as up to date with the science. So I think that’s an important element of that, that people don’t appreciate. They’re not just giving you the exact same shot over and over again. They’re trying to, like we do with the flu vaccine every year, be as close to what is circulating as possible.

Kenen: And there’s a new, new, new, new variant that looked very — do I have enough “news” in there? — that looked, and I don’t remember the initials; I can’t keep track — that is really quite different than the other ones. And there was a lot of initial concern that this vaccine would not work or that we wouldn’t … that our protection would not work against that. The follow-up research is much more reassuring that the fall shot will work against that. But that one really is different, and it’s got a lot of mutations. And, you know, we don’t know yet how … some of these things come and go pretty quickly. I mean, who remembers Mu? That one people were very worried about and it seemed quite dangerous and luckily it didn’t take root. You know, people don’t even know there was a Greek letter called Mu. M-u, not m-o-o, in case anyone’s wondering. If relatives ask me if they should take it, the two things that struck me in reading about it are, yes, it works against this new variant, and we’re not really sure what are the new, new, new, new, new, new, new, new ones. And also, I mean, there’s some research that it does protect against long covid. And I think that’s a big selling point for people. I think there are people who still, with reason, worry about long covid, and that vaccination does provide some protection against that as well.

Huetteman: That’s a great point. I mean, anecdotally, you talk to your friends who’ve had covid, there’s going to be at least a few of them who say they haven’t quite felt like themselves ever since they had covid. And I think that is one of the things that really motivates people who aren’t in those higher-risk categories, to think about whether they need the booster or not.

Kenen: Yeah, and also the myocarditis … Sarah, correct …  you follow this more closely than I do, so correct me if I’m wrong here, but I believe that they’re finding that the myocarditis risk in the newer formulations of the vaccine has dropped, that it is not as much of a concern for young men. And covid itself can cause myocarditis in some individuals. Did I get that right?

Karlin-Smith: Yeah, I think that that’s right. The general sense has been that the risk was more with the initial shots, and it seems to have gone down. I think that there are people that still worry about particular age groups of, like, young men in certain age groups, that maybe for them the benefit-risk balance with the myocarditis risk is, you know, might be a little bit different. And that’s where a lot of the pushback comes through. But right, like you said, there is a fairly high … there’s myocarditis risk from covid itself that needs to be balanced.

Huetteman: Well, OK. That’s this week’s news. Now we’ll take a quick break and then we’ll come back with extra credits.

Julie Rovner: Hey, “What the Health?” listeners, you already know that few things in health care are ever simple. So, if you like our show, I recommend you also listen to “Tradeoffs,” a podcast that goes even deeper into our costly, complicated, and often counterintuitive health care system. Hosted by longtime health care journalist and friend Dan Gorenstein, “Tradeoffs” digs into the evidence and research data behind health care policies and tells the stories of real people impacted by decisions made in C-suites, doctors’ offices, and even Congress. Subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts.

Huetteman: OK, we’re back. And it’s time for our extra-credit segment. That’s when we each recommend a story we read this week that we think you should read, too. As always, don’t worry if you miss it; we’ll post the links on the podcast page at kffhealthnews.org and in our show notes on your phone or other mobile device. Sarah, why don’t you go first?

Karlin-Smith: Sure. So I looked at a MedPage Today page by Kristina Fiore that talks about a GoFundMe campaign that was started by a small rural hospital in Pennsylvania. They’re trying to raise $1.5 million to basically keep the hospital open. It’s the only hospital in the county. It’s a small critical-access hospital. And I think people who follow health care and health policy in the U.S. are probably used to seeing GoFundMe campaigns for individual health care, as we talked about earlier in the episode, right? The unaffordability that can happen even for people with good insurance if you … depending on your medical situation. But this situation, I thought, was really unique, a whole hospital, which is, I guess, community-owned, and they’re essentially turning to the internet to try and stay open. And it touches on some of the payment differences in how rural hospitals make their money, or the payment rates they get reimbursed versus more urban hospitals. Other issues it brings up is just, you know, how do you keep an institution open that’s serving a relatively small population of people? So, you don’t necessarily want to have people going to the hospital, but they’re basically arguing that if we don’t get this amount of people in our ER per day, we can’t stay open. But then that means you don’t have an ER for anybody. And I think it’s just worth looking at, looking at the facts they put on their GoFundMe page, just thinking about, you know, what this says about various policies in the U.S. health system. And, unfortunately for them right now, they’re well short of their $1.5 billion goal.

Huetteman: Yeah, it’s amazing to see this get translated into an institution-saving effort as opposed to an individual-saving effort. Joanne, you want to go next?

Kenen: Sure. This is a story that it was by Bianca Fortis from ProPublica, Laura Biel, who wrote this for ProPublica and New York Magazine, and also Laura, who’s a friend of mine, also has a fabulous podcast called “Exposed.” And in this case, I want to mention the photographer, too, because if you click on this, it’s quite extraordinary visuals. Hannah Whitaker from New York Magazine. And the title is “How Columbia …” — and this is the university, not the country — “How Columbia Ignored Women, Undermined Prosecutors and Protected a Predator for More Than 20 Years.” This is an OB-GYN who was abusing his patients, and it’s hundreds, hundreds that have been identified and known. We knew about him because some of the patients had come forward, including Evelyn Wang, who was Andrew Wang — is Andrew Wang’s wife, the presidential candidate last cycle. But we didn’t know this. You know, first of all, it’s even bigger than we knew three years ago, and he has been prosecuted — finally. But it took 20 years. And this is really more of a story about how the medical system, the health care system, had warning after warning after warning after warning, and they didn’t do anything. And also, many of the people who tried to give the warnings, some of the employees, including the medical assistants, and the nurses, and the receptionists, knew what was going on. And they thought that they, as lower-level women going up against a white male doctor, wouldn’t be believed. And they didn’t even try. They just felt like he’s the guy, he’s the doctor. I’m the, you know, I’m the nurse. They won’t listen to me. So that was another subtheme that came out to me. I had known vaguely about this. It’s really long, and I read every word. It’s a really horrifying saga of an abdication of responsibility to women who were really harmed. Vulnerable women who were really harmed.

Huetteman: Yeah, it’s a really troubling story, but it’s an important piece of journalism. And I advise that people give it a little time. Margot, would you like to go next?

Sanger-Katz: Yeah. So this is a very nerdy, deep cut. I wanted to talk about a CBO [Congressional Budget Office] report from 2012 called “Raising the Excise Tax on Cigarettes: Effects on Health and the Federal Budget.” So when I published this article about how Medicare spending has sort of flattened out, we got so many reader comments and emails and tweets and several people asked, “Could it be that the decline in smoking has led to lower costs for Medicare?” And that caused me to do some reporting and to read this paper. And I think the finding, the sort of counterintuitive finding that I will tell you about in a minute, from the CBO really speaks to some of the discussion that we were having earlier about these obesity drugs, which is that there are many beneficial preventive therapies in health care that are great for people’s health. They make them healthier, they have happier lives, they live longer, they have less burden of disease, but they are not cost-effective in the sense that they reduce our total spending on health care. And the simplest way to think about this is that if everyone in America just died at age 65, Medicare’s budget would look amazing. You know, it would be great. We would save so much money if we could just kill everyone at age 65. But that’s not what the goal of Medicare is. It’s not to save the maximum amount of money. It’s to get a good value, to improve people’s life and health as much as possible for a good value. And so this report was looking at what would happen if we had a really effective policy to reduce smoking in the United States. They looked at a tax that they estimated would reduce the smoking rate by a further 5 percentage points. And what they found is that it would cost the government more money, that people would be healthier, they would live longer lives, more of them would spend more years in Medicare, and they would end up having some other health problem that was expensive that they weren’t going to have before. And also they would collect a lot of Social Security payments because they would live a lot longer. And so I found it so stunning because the economics of it, I think, make a lot of sense. And when you think about it, it’s true. But it does go to show how, I think, that sometimes when we, and when politicians, talk about preventive health care, they always talk about it like it’s a win-win. You know, this is going to be great for people and it’s going to save money. And I think that in health care, many times things that are good and beneficial improve health and they cost money and we have to decide if it’s worth it.

Huetteman: Absolutely. That’s great. Thank you. My extra credit this week comes from KFF Health News. Dr. Elisabeth Rosenthal, our senior contributing editor, writes: “The Shrinking Number of Primary Care Physicians Is Reaching a Tipping Point.” And we’ve seen some great coverage lately on the disappearance of the primary care doctor in this country. And Dr. Rosenthal also offers some solutions to this yawning gap in our health care system. She reports that the percent of U.S. doctors that have moved into primary care is now at about 25%, which is much lower than in previous decades. And one point she makes, in particular, about a problem that’s leading to this is the payment structure that we have in our country favors surgeries and procedures, of course, not diagnostic tests, preventative care, when it comes to reimbursing doctors. And of course, this lack of primary care doctors has implications for our overall health, both individually and as a country. So I recommend that you give that article a little bit of your time this week.

All right. That’s our show for this week. As always, if you enjoy the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left a review; that helps other people find us, too. Special thanks, as always, to our amazing engineer, Francis Ying. And as always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org. Or you can tweet me. I’m @emmarieDC. Sarah?

Karlin-Smith: I’m @SarahKarlin.

Huetteman: Joanne?

Kenen: @JoanneKenen on Twitter, @joannekenen1 on Threads.

Huetteman: And Margot.

Sanger-Katz: @sangerkatz in all the places.

Huetteman: We’ll be back in your feed next week. Until then, be healthy.

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This story can be republished for free (details).

Every person who agreed to get the smallpox vaccination was a potential outbreak averted, so the team was determined to vaccinate as many people as possible. 

The duo leaned on each other, sometimes literally, as they traversed the country’s rugged and watery geography. Khan, whom Miner sometimes referred to as “little brother,” used his local knowledge to help the team navigate both the cultural and physical landscape. When crossing rickety bamboo bridges, he would hold Miner’s hand and help him across. “We didn’t let him fall,” chuckled Khan. 

Episode 4 of “Eradicating Smallpox” explores what it took to bring care directly to people where they were. 

To conclude the episode, host Céline Gounder speaks with public health advocate Joe Osmundson about his work to help coordinate a culturally appropriate response to mpox in New York City during the summer of 2022. “The model that we’re trying to build is a mobile unit that delivers all sorts of sexual and primary health care opportunities. They’re opportunities!” exclaimed Osmundson.

The Host:

Céline Gounder
Senior fellow & editor-at-large for public health, KFF Health News

@celinegounder

Read Céline's stories

Céline is senior fellow and editor-at-large for public health with KFF Health News. She is an infectious diseases physician and epidemiologist. She was an assistant commissioner of health in New York City. Between 1998 and 2012, she studied tuberculosis and HIV in South Africa, Lesotho, Malawi, Ethiopia, and Brazil. Gounder also served on the Biden-Harris Transition COVID-19 Advisory Board. 

In Conversation with Céline Gounder:

Joe Osmundson 
Public health advocate and clinical assistant professor of biology at New York University

@reluctantlyjoe

Voices from the Episode:

Tim Miner
Former World Health Organization smallpox eradication program worker in Bangladesh

Shahidul Haq Khan
Former World Health Organization smallpox eradication program worker in Bangladesh

Click to open the transcript

Transcript: Speedboat Epidemiology

Podcast Transcript 

Epidemic: “Eradicating Smallpox” 

Season 2, Episode 4: Speedboat Epidemiology 

Air date: Aug. 29, 2023 

Editor’s note: If you are able, we encourage you to listen to the audio of “Epidemic,” which includes emotion and emphasis not found in the transcript. This transcript, generated using transcription software, has been edited for style and clarity. Please use the transcript as a tool but check the corresponding audio before quoting the podcast. 

TRANSCRIPT 

Céline Gounder: In the early 1970s, smallpox was still stalking parts of South Asia. India had launched its eradication program more than a decade before, but public health workers couldn’t keep up with the virus. 

Enter … the bifurcated needle. 

[Metallic ding sound] 

[Light instrumental music begins playing] 

Tim Miner: It was a marvelous invention in its simplicity. It looks like a little cocktail fork. 

Céline Gounder: You dip the prongs into a bit of vaccine … 

Tim Miner: And you would just prick the skin about 12 or 15 times until there was a little trace of blood and then you’d take another one. 

Céline Gounder: It barely took 30 seconds to vaccinate someone. 

And it didn’t hurt. 

Yogesh Parashar: No. 

Céline Gounder: Well … it didn’t hurt too much. 

Yogesh Parashar: It was just like a pinprick, rapidly done on your forearm. You had a huge supply with you and you just went about and — dot, dot, dot — vaccinated people, carry hundreds with you at one go. 

Tim Miner: And you could train somebody in a matter of minutes to do it. 

Céline Gounder: Easy to use. Easy to clean. And a big improvement over the twisting teeth of the vaccine instrument health workers had to use before. 

The bifurcated needle was maybe 2 and a half, 3 inches long. 

Small, but sturdy enough for rough-and-tumble fieldwork. 

Yogesh Parashar: It was made of steel. And it used to come in something that looked like a brick. It was just like one of those gold bricks that you see in the movies. 

Céline Gounder: And maybe worth its weight in gold. 

[Light instrumental music fades to silence] 

Céline Gounder: That “cocktail fork” was among the pioneering innovations that helped public health workers wipe out a centuries-old virus. 

Tim Miner: You had the bifurcated needle, you had the sterile water, and you had the freeze-dried vaccine, and you could mix them up and off you’d go. 

Céline Gounder: Ah, but getting there wasn’t always that easy. 

I’m Dr. Céline Gounder, and this is “Epidemic.” 

[Epidemic theme music plays] 

Céline Gounder: On this episode, we’re exploring what it took to deliver the smallpox vaccine to the people — and all the remaining places — that needed it most. 

In South Asia, Bangladesh was a major battleground in the campaign to stop smallpox. 

We spoke with a man who helped lead an eradication team there. 

Shahidul Haq Khan: My name is MD Shahidul Haq Khan. 

Céline Gounder: For our interview, Shahidul Haq Khan invited me to his home in Barishal. That’s in south-central Bangladesh. We sat at a table in the courtyard, and his granddaughter, Kashfia, who looked like she was around 10 years old, stood close by … 

Céline Gounder: Kashfia. So nice to meet you, Kashfia. I’m Céline. 

Kashfia: Hello. 

Céline Gounder: Hello. [Céline chuckles.] Are you going to listen to us? 

Céline Gounder: Kashfia wanted to hear her granddad’s stories, and I got the impression that was also important to Shahidul. 

As the two of us did our best to communicate through a translator — with neighbors, chickens, and street noise all around — Shahidul wanted me to understand why he was speaking with me and the significance of the smallpox campaign. 

Shahidul Haq Khan: [Shahidul speaking in Bengali] 

English translation: The purpose of saying these things is that we needed all this effort. We put a lot of hard work and effort behind smallpox eradication. 

Céline Gounder: Very hard work. You must be very proud of what you helped accomplish. 

Shahidul Haq Khan: [Shahidul speaking in Bengali] 

English translation: Yes, of course. Of course, I can say that we’re proud to say that we’ve eliminated smallpox from this country. 

Céline Gounder: The job was to hunt down smallpox — and stop it — in a country packed with people, crisscrossed by rivers, edged with mangrove forests, and dotted with remote lowland river islands. 

[Rain sounds fade in] 

Céline Gounder: And there were the monsoons. It rained A LOT. 

[Bouncy, upbeat music begins playing softly in the background] 

[Rain sounds fades out] 

Tim Miner: Uh, well, we got wet. [Tim chuckles.] To state the obvious. 

Céline Gounder: That’s Tim Miner. He was an officer with the World Health Organization in Bangladesh. 

Tim Miner: My legal name is Howard Miner, but I was the third Howard, so I got nicknamed Tim. 

Céline Gounder: Shahidul and Tim worked together for several months in 1974. 

The public health strategy was called “search and containment,” and a big part of that meant figuring out how to get the vaccine from one community to the next. 

Tim Miner: And occasionally you have to park your motorcycle, take your shoes and socks off, and walk across a leech-infested paddy field to get to the next case. 

Céline Gounder: The work depended on local knowledge, and Shahidul was the local knowledge. 

He was the lead Bangladeshi member on the eradication team, and when they arrived at a village that had a suspected case of smallpox, often Shahidul went in first, with Tim a few steps behind …  

Tim Miner: Someone would bring out some chairs. And sometimes we would have tea and biscuits. Or, if they didn’t have tea and biscuits, then somebody would climb up and get a coconut and chop off the top and watch me drink it and dribble the coconut milk all over myself, and everybody had a good time.  

Shahidul Haq Khan: [Shahidul speaking in Bengali] 

English translation: Dr. Miner called me “little brother.” I was younger then. How old was I? 21 or 22 years old. 

Tim Miner: He referred to me as “Dr. Miner,” even though I’m not a … a physician. That’s how he referred to me. 

Céline Gounder: Shahidul had been working in public health before he joined the smallpox effort. He offered guidance on culture — and occasionally gave Tim a hand on rickety bamboo bridges. 

Shahidul Haq Khan: [Shahidul speaking in Bengali] 

English translation: Most of the time, I escorted him across the bamboo bridge. I took his bag and held his hand and helped him across. 

Tim Miner: You learn to walk and not look down and just, uh, you know, hang onto the poles. And, fortunately, I never fell in. 

Shahidul Haq Khan: [Shahidul speaking in Bengali] 

English translation: We didn’t let him fall. 

[Bouncy, upbeat music fades out] 

Céline Gounder: The team was based on a hospital ship, called the Niramoy. It had all the basics: a couple of cabins, a space to perform surgery, plus a few comforts, like a generator they’d turn on in the morning for showers, a cook who picked up fresh fish at the market every day. 

Tim Miner: I would have a doodh cha, a tea with milk, and a kacha morich pyaz — scrambled eggs with, uh, chiles. 

Céline Gounder: The hospital ship hauled supplies from port to port. And everywhere they went, they towed a speedboat along with them. 

Tim Miner: We would receive reports of cases and we would get down from the ship in our speedboat, and the speedboat driver would take us as far as the boat could go. And we would walk, do the investigation, and find out who the contacts were and vaccinate the village and surrounding areas. 

Céline Gounder: Tim calls it “speedboat epidemiology.” The work required a willingness to go wherever and everywhere the virus took up residence. By and large, people welcomed them and were glad to get the vaccine. 

Tim Miner: They know about smallpox. They’ve been dealing with it, you know, all of their lives. And they have lost family members to the disease. 

Céline Gounder: Still, the task was huge: to find and vaccinate every person with smallpox — and all the people that person had come in contact with. 

[Subtle music begins playing] 

Céline Gounder: In modern-day public health, the work gets done with cellphones and spreadsheets, maybe social media. In Bangladesh in 1974, they had none of that. 

Shahidul and Tim had the speedboat, motorbikes, and their feet to cover a territory that took them all the way down to the coast. 

Tim Miner: First there’s Barishal … 

Shahidul Haq Khan: Latachapli … 

Tim Miner: … then there’s Faridpur … 

Shahidul Haq Khan: … Dankupara … 

Tim Miner: … then there’s Patuakhali. 

Shahidul Haq Khan: … and Kuakata. 

Céline Gounder: People were constantly on the move — maybe for seasonal work or better opportunities. That made contact tracing tricky. During one investigation, Tim identified a man who’d been exposed to the virus, but he’d left the region for Dhaka. 

The capital was densely populated — a city of 2 million in 1974. And smallpox was highly contagious. So Tim called a colleague — on the shortwave radio — to see if he could track down the man in Dhaka. 

[Ambient Dhaka street noises play in the background] 

Tim Miner: Well, it’s not just a street address or a ZIP code or anything like that, as you can well imagine. He lived in a basti, or a slum. And I described it as best I could. You know, ‘You enter by the big tree and turn left at the tea stall and walk the path and then start calling out for the family name.’ 

Céline Gounder: They found the guy! And vaccinated him. Tim says the man had smallpox, but the virus hadn’t quite erupted yet, so it was a pretty mild case. 

Tim Miner: Because of his immunization. It is somewhat miraculous, the needle in the haystack. 

[Music fades out] 

Céline Gounder: In Bangladesh, people weren’t likely to just show up to a local clinic to get the vaccine, so the team took the vaccine to the people. 

At its best, public health follows and bends to the rhythm of the culture. For example, after Ramadan, as Muslims began to break the fast for Eid … 

Tim Miner: Where people go back to their villages and visit and bring presents and gifts and food. 

[Ambient sounds of the water from a port in Bangladesh play] 

Céline Gounder: The team went to ports where steamer ships departed, asking in Bengali if travelers had come in contact with anyone with the disease’s distinctive pustules. 

Tim Miner: Guṭibasanta, uh, basanta rōgī. 

Céline Gounder: Which means “smallpox patient.” 

Tim Miner: Have you seen any guṭibasanta and basanta rōgī? 

Céline Gounder: Tim says he relied on his team to figure out how best to make the person in front of them comfortable. 

Tim Miner: ‘What would you do? What do you think should be done in this case?’ And I don’t think this is done often enough. It was a real partnership. It was real working together. 

Céline Gounder: Well, a partnership, yes. But Shahidul Haq Khan says the search-and-containment program was pretty strict. His work was meticulously checked and checked again. 

Remember, he was maybe 21 or 22 years old, with a big responsibility on his shoulders, and Tim Miner was a tough boss. 

Shahidul Haq Khan: [Shahidul speaking in Bengali] 

English translation: At any cost, we had to vaccinate all. There was no other way. 

Céline Gounder: Sometimes Shahidul had to return to the same home over and over — or hang out, if the man of the house was still in the fields working. 

Shahidul Haq Khan: [Shahidul speaking in Bengali] 

English translation: We had to wait until they returned. 

Shahidul Haq Khan: [Shahidul speaking in Bengali] 

English translation: Otherwise, Dr. Miner would again take us back there, no matter how late. [Shahidul laughs] 

Céline Gounder: One evening, Shahidul returned to the hospital ship after a day of door-to-door canvassing, and had to give a not-so-great report to Tim. 

[Tense music begins playing] 

Shahidul Haq Khan: [Shahidul speaking in Bengali] … a pregnant, uh, … 

English translation: I couldn’t vaccinate a pregnant woman in Dankupara. This was the first time that I couldn’t vaccinate someone. 

Shahidul Haq Khan: [Shahidul speaking in Bengali] 

English translation: I couldn’t convince her at all. He immediately told us to pack up. He stopped the work and said, “Let’s go.” 

Shahidul Haq Khan: [Shahidul speaking in Bengali] 

English translation: Immediately. At that very moment. 

Tim Miner: We were working basically 24/7, if need be. 

Céline Gounder: The team headed to the speedboat. It was late. And it was freezing. Shahidul remembers the bite of the cold air as they blasted across the water toward the woman’s village. 

Tim Miner: I fully understand, understood why this woman hesitated to be vaccinated. She was expecting a child and she didn’t want to do anything to jeopardize her life or the life of the unborn child. So, we were very gentle in talking with her and answering her questions. It was time well spent. 

Céline Gounder: The woman agreed to take the vaccine. 

Shahidul Haq Khan: [Shahidul speaking in Bengali] 

English translation: That day was one of the most memorable of my life. 

[Music fades to silence] 

Céline Gounder: Many on the team considered their outreach to women fundamental to success in South Asia, because … women talk. 

What they say, what they believe, echoes. 

Tim Miner: They get together, they do the laundry, they do the cooking, they share good times and bad times. This woman who was vaccinated probably showed her vaccination either in her family or in the village. And that’s the importance of getting one person, especially a pregnant woman who will tell others about immunization. 

Céline Gounder: Public health workers trying to end smallpox across South Asia mostly had the same tools — the vaccine, that bifurcated needle, and a strategy — on paper. But squashing the virus required tactics specific to each community: its needs, its culture, its worries … and its terrain. 

[Staccato music begins playing] 

Céline Gounder: Smallpox eradication workers went to great lengths to meet people where they were. 

But Joe Osmundson, who’s a public health advocate in New York City, told me that’s not an approach we see nearly enough in public health today. 

Joe Osmundson: Céline, it’s not your first time at the rodeo. [Celine laughs] Um, it’s like, we’ve all been through this again and again and again. 

We know what the problems are and yet we seem reluctant to actually do the right thing, which is to build processes that meet people where they’re at. 

Céline Gounder: After the break, more on what it looks like to bring public health directly to those who need it most. 

[Music fades to silence] 

Céline Gounder: Mpox, formerly known as monkeypox, is a highly contagious virus. Last summer, mpox cases spiked around the world, spreading quickly, predominantly among men who have sex with men. Mpox spreads through physical contact. It causes a painful blistering rash and, in extreme cases, it can be deadly. 

My colleague Joe Osmundson acted as a community liaison for the New York City Department of Health to help coordinate a culturally appropriate response to mpox. 

Joe Osmundson: I’m a microbiologist by training, but I also just do tons of advocacy and activism as a queer person who believes in equal access to the best biomedicine available. 

Céline Gounder: As mpox cases were increasing, we knew we needed to vaccinate those at highest risk as quickly as possible. Joe’s plan? Mobile vans to quickly bring mpox vaccines to places where high-risk people already were. 

Joe Osmundson: Our idea was to go to commercial sex venues, because commercial sex venues self-select for people with a large number of sexual partners. And if you give them the best possible immunity, that protects not just the people at the party but all the other people in the larger sexual network that they connect with. 

Céline Gounder: What is a commercial sex venue? 

Joe Osmundson: It’s basically a nonhousehold space where people gather for sex. 

When you have public venues where people gather, you have the opportunity to meet them where they’re at, to provide education, to provide condoms, to provide access to HIV testing and access to health care. 

So many queer people don’t have affirming doctors, don’t feel comfortable asking about sexual health with their physicians. So, you can put a van outside with affirming physicians and actually provide that preventative care that actually stops the infection. 

Céline Gounder: Did you run into any obstacles in doing this outreach? Setting up the mobile vans …? 

Joe Osmundson: So, there is a huge amount of mistrust in this community for city officials, for good reason. For many decades there was a group inside the New York City Department of Health that had undercover people who would go to these parties and find violations and close them down. So really it was only me and a couple other people doing outreach on-site. 

Céline Gounder: How did it work, what was the scene like, and what was your role in that? 

Joe Osmundson: Yeah, so, when I was there, I would go inside the club and, you know, there’s a little line, an area where people get dressed or undressed, and I would just hang out there and people would have a lot of questions. 

So, because, again, they perceived me as being, like, a part of their community, it was very easy to talk to people and just ask, you know, “Hey, have you had your vaccine yet? Have you had both doses?” If not, you know, it’ll take 15 minutes. I can walk you down to the van and get you that dose tonight. 

Céline Gounder: Were these mobile vaccination vans successful? 

Joe Osmundson: We find them to be massively successful. Once the city was able to get the vans there, people were so grateful to be able to get a shot on-site. 

We were giving 60, 80 doses per event — when the event might only have 140 people — so we were vaccinating 60% of these parties. 

That’s the other magic of the mobile units, was that you had people queer people talking to queer people, and even queer people of color talking to queer people of color and offering the care in terms that that community knows how to respond to and also just has more inherent trust with. 

Céline Gounder: But, at the same time, in New York City, mpox vaccination rates have been disproportionately low in Black communities. 

Joe Osmundson: Mm-hmm. 

Céline Gounder: As well as Hispanic communities. 

What could public health leaders have done from the start to ensure more equitable vaccine distribution, and what should they be doing now? 

Joe Osmundson: Yeah. It was a remarkable sort of mistake that, not just New York, but many cities made where they said we’ll build the foundation and then worry about equity later, because this is an emergency. 

So we’ll open up a brick-and-mortar in Chelsea, and then we’ll get the vaccine vans up at, you know, Brooklyn Pride, a Bronx health clinic. You know, we’ll do that later. 

We know that if you don’t do equity as the foundation, you will be chasing disparities. 

Céline Gounder: What can we say about who’s been vaccinated and who remains unvaccinated? 

Joe Osmundson: Black people are undervaccinated. They also have a higher rate of advanced HIV infection, and mpox plus advanced HIV means really severe disease and even death. Ninety percent of mpox deaths have been in Black people, Black queer people with advanced HIV. 

And we need something brand-new because we’ve been failing these folks for years. They have so many horrific experiences with their health care providers, or they don’t have insurance, or they’re underemployed, or they live super far from the nearest health care clinic. 

When people have difficulties accessing care, it spreads to every disease state, from HIV to mpox to primary care, etc. 

Céline Gounder: How can we apply this model of health outreach beyond mpox? 

Joe Osmundson: The model that we’re trying to build is a mobile unit that delivers all sorts of sexual and primary health care opportunities. They are opportunities! You know? If someone’s getting a covid vaccine, give them a flu vaccine at the same time. The literature shows that these interventions work. 

Céline Gounder: What else is there beyond vans? Are there other strategies when it comes to reaching people where they are that we haven’t employed that we should be thinking about? 

Joe Osmundson: We have affirming clinicians, affirming Black queer clinicians all over this city. Their expertise should be fostered. 

For years there’s been this model of health officials talking to community. And that’s outreach. And we aren’t done with that. 

We have experts, we have clinicians, we have epidemiologists, we have scientists who are in the community who know the science just as well as health officials. And communication needs to go two ways. 

Céline Gounder: That was Joe Osmundson, a microbiologist at New York University and the author of the book “Virology.” 

Joe Osmundson: The sexiest public health outreach worker of all time! [Laughter] A face made for radio. [Laughter] 

[“Epidemic” theme music begins playing] 

Céline Gounder: Next time on “Epidemic” … 

Larry Brilliant: Your company is sending death all over the world. You’re the greatest exporter of smallpox in history … You’ve got to stop this. 

Céline Gounder: “Eradicating Smallpox,” our latest season of “Epidemic,” is a co-production of KFF Health News and Just Human Productions. 

Additional support provided by the Sloan Foundation. 

This episode was produced by Taylor Cook, Zach Dyer, and me. 

Redwan Ahmed was our translator and local reporting partner in Bangladesh. 

Managing editor Taunya English was scriptwriter for the episode — with help from Stephanie O’Neill. 

Oona Tempest is our graphics and photo editor. 

The show was engineered by Justin Gerrish. 

Voice acting by Pinaki Kar. 

We had extra editing help from Simone Popperl. 

Music in this episode is from the Blue Dot Sessions and Soundstripe. 

We’re powered and distributed by Simplecast. 

If you enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. And leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps more people find the show. 

Follow KFF Health News on Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok. 

And find me on Twitter @celinegounder. On our socials, there’s more about the ideas we’re exploring on the podcasts. And subscribe to our newsletters at kffhealthnews.org so you’ll never miss what’s new and important in American health care, health policy, and public health news. 

I’m Dr. Céline Gounder. Thanks for listening to “Epidemic.” 

[“Epidemic” theme fades out] 

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Taunya English
Managing editor

@TaunyaEnglish

Taunya is senior editor for broadcast innovation with KFF Health News, where she leads enterprise audio projects.

Zach Dyer
Senior producer

@zkdyer

Zach is senior producer for audio with KFF Health News, where he supervises all levels of podcast production.

Taylor Cook
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@taylormcook7

Taylor is associate audio producer for Season 2 of Epidemic. She researches, writes, and fact-checks scripts for the podcast.

Oona Tempest
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Oona is a digital producer and illustrator with KFF Health News. She researched, sourced, and curated the images for the season.

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The Host

Julie Rovner
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Julie Rovner is chief Washington correspondent and host of KFF Health News’ weekly health policy news podcast, “What the Health?” A noted expert on health policy issues, Julie is the author of the critically praised reference book “Health Care Politics and Policy A to Z,” now in its third edition.

The Biden administration continued a bipartisan, decades-long effort to ensure that health insurance treats mental illnesses the same as other ailments, with a new set of regulations aimed at ensuring that services are actually available without years-long waits or excessive out-of-pocket costs.

Meanwhile, two more committees in Congress approved bills this week aimed at reining in the power of pharmacy benefit managers, who are accused of keeping prescription drug prices high to increase their bottom lines.

This week’s panelists are Julie Rovner of KFF Health News, Anna Edney of Bloomberg, Joanne Kenen of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico, and Sarah Karlin-Smith of the Pink Sheet.

Panelists

Anna Edney
Bloomberg

@annaedney

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Joanne Kenen
Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico

@JoanneKenen

Read Joanne's stories

Sarah Karlin-Smith
Pink Sheet

@SarahKarlin

Read Sarah's stories

Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:

• The Biden administration’s new rules to enforce federal mental health parity requirements include no threat of sanctions when health plans do not comply; noncompliance with even the most minimal federal rules has been a problem dating to the 1990s. Improving access to mental health care is not a new policy priority, nor a partisan one, yet it remains difficult to achieve.
• With the anniversary of the 988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline, more people are becoming aware of how to access help and get it. Challenges remain, however, such as the hotline service’s inability to connect callers with local care. But the program seizes on the power of an initial connection for someone in a moment of crisis and offers a lifeline for a nation experiencing high rates of depression, anxiety, and suicide.
• In news about the so-called Medicaid unwinding, 12 states have paused disenrollment efforts amid concerns they are not following renewal requirements. A major consideration is that most people who are disenrolled would qualify to obtain inexpensive or even free coverage through the Affordable Care Act. But reenrollment can be challenging, particularly for those with language barriers or housing insecurity, for instance.
• With a flurry of committee activity, Congress is revving up to pass legislation by year’s end targeting the role of pharmacy benefit managers — and, based on the advertisements blanketing Washington, PBMs are nervous. It appears legislation would increase transparency and inform policymakers as they contemplate further, more substantive changes. That could be a tough sell to a public crying out for relief from high health care costs.
• Also on Capitol Hill, far-right lawmakers are pushing to insert abortion restrictions into annual government spending bills, threatening yet another government shutdown on Oct. 1. The issue is causing heartburn for less conservative Republicans who do not want more abortion votes ahead of their reelection campaigns.
• And the damage to a Pfizer storage facility by a tornado is amplifying concerns about drug shortages. After troubling problems with a factory in India caused shortages of critical cancer drugs, decision-makers in Washington have been keeping an eye on the growing issues, and a response may be brewing.

Also this week, Rovner interviews KFF Health News’ Céline Gounder about the new season of her “Epidemic” podcast. This season chronicles the successful public health effort to eradicate smallpox.

Plus, for “extra credit,” the panelists suggest health policy stories they read this week that they think you should read, too:

Julie Rovner: The Nation’s “The Anti-Abortion Movement Gets a Dose of Post-Roe Reality,” by Amy Littlefield.

Joanne Kenen: Food & Environment Reporting Network’s “Can Biden’s Climate-Smart Agriculture Program Live Up to the Hype?” by Gabriel Popkin.

Anna Edney: Bloomberg’s “Mineral Sunscreens Have Potential Hidden Dangers, Too,” by Anna Edney.

Sarah Karlin-Smith: CNN’s “They Took Blockbuster Drugs for Weight Loss and Diabetes. Now Their Stomachs Are Paralyzed,” by Brenda Goodman.

Also mentioned in this week’s episode:

• CNN’s “Medicaid Disenrollments Paused in a Dozen States After Failure to Comply With Federal Rules,” by Tami Luhby.
• Abortion, Every Day’s “Why Are OBGYNs Being Forced to Go to Texas?” by Jessica Valenti.
• Politico’s “GOP Looks to Spending Fights for Wins on Abortion, Trans Care, Contraception,” by Alice Miranda Ollstein.
• KFF Health News’ “A Year With 988: What Worked? What Challenges Lie Ahead,” by Colleen DeGuzman.

click to open the transcript

Transcript: Another Try for Mental Health ‘Parity’

KFF Health News’ ‘What the Health?’Episode Title: Another Try for Mental Health ‘Parity’Episode Number: 307Published: July 27, 2023

[Editor’s note: This transcript, generated using transcription software, has been edited for style and clarity.]

Julie Rovner: Hello and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Julie Rovner, chief Washington correspondent for KFF Health News, and I’m joined by some of the best and smartest health reporters in Washington. We’re taping this week on Thursday, July 27, at 10 a.m. As always, news happens fast and things might have changed by the time you hear this. So, here we go. We are joined today via video conference by Joanne Kenen of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico.

Joanne Kenen: Hi, everybody.

Rovner: Sarah Karlin-Smith, the Pink Sheet.

Sarah Karlin-Smith: Hi, Julie.

Rovner: And Anna Edney of Bloomberg News.

Edney: Hello.

Rovner: Later in this episode, we’ll have my interview with my KFF colleague Céline Gounder about the new season of her podcast “Epidemic,” which tracks one of the last great public health success stories, the eradication of smallpox. But first, this week’s news. I want to start this week with mental health, which we haven’t talked about in a while — specifically, mental health parity, which is both a law and a concept, that mental ailments should be covered and reimbursed by health insurance the same way as a broken bone or case of pneumonia or any other — air quotes — “physical ailment.” Policymakers, Republican and Democrat, and the mental health community have been fighting pretty much nonstop since the mid-1990s to require parity. And despite at least five separate acts of Congress over that time — I looked it up this week — we are still not there yet. To this day, patients with psychiatric illnesses find their care denied reimbursement, made difficult to access, or otherwise treated as lesser. This week, the Biden administration is taking another whack at the issue, putting out proposed rules it hopes will start to close the remaining parity gap, among other things by requiring health plans to analyze their networks and prior authorization rules and other potential barriers to care to ensure that members actually can get the care they need. What I didn’t see in the rules, though, was any new threat to sanction plans that don’t comply — because plans have been not complying for a couple of decades now. How much might these new rules help in the absence of a couple of multimillion-dollar fines?

Edney: I had that same question when I was considering this because I didn’t see like, OK, like, great, they’re going to do their self-policing, and then what? But I do think that there’s the possibility, and this has been used in health care before, of public shaming. If the administration gets to look over this data and in some way compile it and say, here’s the good guys, here’s the bad guys, maybe that gets us somewhere.

Rovner: You know, it strikes me, this has been going on for so very long. I mean, at first it was the employer community actually that did most of the negotiating, not the insurers. Now that it’s required, it’s the insurers who are in charge of it. But it has been just this incredible mountain to scale, and nobody has been able to do it yet.

Kenen: And it’s always been bipartisan.

Rovner: That’s right.

Kenen: And it really goes back to mostly, you know, the late Sen. [Paul] Wellstone [(D-Minn.)] and [Sen. Pete] Domenici [(R-N.M.)], both of whom had close relatives with serious mental illness. You know, Domenici was fairly conservative and traditional conservative, and Wellstone was extremely liberal. And they just said, I mean, this — the parity move began — the original parity legislation, at least the first one I’m aware of. And it was like, I think it was before I came to Washington. I think it was in the ’80s, certainly the early — by the ’90s.

Rovner: It was 1996 when when the first one actually passed. Yeah.

Kenen: I mean, they started talking about it before that because it took them seven or eight years. So this is not a new idea, and it’s not a partisan idea, and it’s still not done. It’s still not there.

Edney: I think there’s some societal shift too, possibly. I mean, we’re seeing it, and maybe we’re getting closer. I’ve seen a lot of billboards lately. I’ve done some work travel. When I’m on the road, I feel like I’m always seeing these billboards that are saying mental health care is health care. And trying to hammer that through has really taken a long time.

Rovner: So while we are on the subject of mental health, one of the good things I think the government has done in the last year is start the 988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline, which turned 1 this month. Early data from shifting the hotline from a 10-digit number to a three-digit one that’s a lot easier to remember does suggest that more people are becoming aware of immediate help and more people are getting it. At the same time, it’s been able to keep up with the demand, even improving call answering times — I know that was a big concern — but there is still a long way to go, and this is hardly a panacea for what we know is an ongoing mental health crisis, right?

Karlin-Smith: This is a good first step to get people in crisis help without some of the risks that we’ve seen. If you go towards the 911 route, sometimes police are not well trained to handle these calls and they end in worse outcomes than necessary. But then you have to have that second part, which is what we were talking about before, which is the access to the longer-term mental health support to actually receive the treatment you need. There’s also some issues with this hotline going forward in terms of long-term funding and, you know, other tweaks they need to work out to make sure, again, that people who are not expecting to interact with law enforcement actually don’t end up indirectly getting there and things like that as well.

Kenen: Do any of you know whether there’s discussion of sort of making people who don’t remember it’s 988 and they call 911 — instead of dispatching cops, are the dispatchers being trained to just transfer it over to 988?

Rovner: That I don’t know.

Kenen: I’m not aware of that. But it just sort of seems common sense.

Rovner: One thing I know they’re working on is, right now I think there’s no geolocation. So when you call 988, you don’t necessarily get automatically referred to resources that are in your community because they don’t necessarily know where you’re calling from. And I know that’s an effort. But yeah, I’m sure there either is or is going to be some effort to interact between 988 and 911.

Kenen: It’s common sense to us. It doesn’t mean it’s actually happening. I mean, this is health care.

Rovner: As we point out, this is mental health care, too.

Kenen: Yeah, right.

Rovner: It’s a step.

Kenen: But I think that, you know, sort of the power of that initial connection is something that’s easy for people to underestimate. I mean, my son in college was doing a helpline during 2020-2021. You know, he was trained, and he was also trained, like, if you think this is beyond what a college-aged volunteer, that if you’re uncertain, you just switched immediately to a mental health professional. But sometimes it’s just, people feel really bad and just having a voice gets them through a crisis moment. And as we all know, there are a lot of people having a lot of crisis moments. I doubt any of us don’t know of a suicide in the last year, and maybe not in our immediate circle, but a friend of a friend, I mean, or, you know — I know several. You know, we are really at a moment of extreme crisis. And if a phone call can help some percentage of those people, then, you know, it needs to be publicized even more and improved so it can be more than a friendly voice, plus a connection to what, ending this repetition of crisis.

Rovner: I feel like the people who worked hard to get this implemented are pretty happy a year later at how, you know — obviously there’s further to go — but they’re happy with how far they’ve come. Well, so, probably the only thing worse than not getting care covered that should be is losing your health coverage altogether, which brings us to the Medicaid unwinding, as states redetermine who’s still eligible for Medicaid for the first time since the start of the pandemic. Our podcast colleague Tami Luhby over at CNN had a story Friday that I still haven’t seen anywhere else. Apparently 12 states have put their disenrollments on pause, says Tami. But we don’t know which 12, according to the KFF disenrollment tracker. As of Wednesday, July 26, at least 3.7 million people have been disenrolled from the 37 states that are reporting publicly, nearly three-quarters of those people for, quote, “procedural reasons,” meaning those people might still be eligible but for some reason didn’t complete the renewal process. The dozen states on pause are apparently ones that HHS [the Department of Health and Human Services] thinks are not following the renewal requirements and presumably ones whose disenrollments are out of line. The Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services, which is overseeing this, is not naming those states, but this points up exactly what a lot of people predicted would happen when states started looking at eligibility again, that a lot of people who were quite likely still eligible were simply going to lose their insurance altogether, right?

Edney: Yeah, it seemed like there was a lot of preparation in some ways to anticipating this. And then, yeah, obviously you had the states that were just raring to go and try to get people off the rolls. And yeah, it would be very interesting to know what those 12 are. I think Tami’s reporting was stellar and she did a really good job. But that’s, like, one piece of the puzzle we’re missing. And I know CMS said that they’re not naming them because they are working well with them to try to fix it.

Rovner: The one thing we obviously do know is that there are several states that are doing this faster than is required — in fact, faster than is recommended. And what we know is that the faster they do it, the more likely they are going to have people sort of fall between the cracks. The people who are determined to be no longer eligible for Medicaid are supposed to be guided to programs for which they are eligible. And presumably most of them, unless they have, you know, gotten a really great job or hit the lottery, will still be eligible at least for subsidies under the Affordable Care Act. And they’re supposed to be guided to those programs. And it’s not clear yet whether that’s happening, although I know there are an awful lot of people who are watching this pretty closely. There were over 90 million people on Medicaid by the end of the pandemic, by the point at which states no longer had to keep people on. That’s a lot more people than Medicaid normally has. It’s usually more around 70 or even 80 million. So there’s excess people. And the question is what’s going to happen to those people and whether they’re going to have some sort of health insurance. And I guess it’s going to be more than a couple of months before we know that. Yes, Joanne.

Kenen: I think that it’s important to remember that there’s no open enrollment season for Medicaid the way there is for the ACA, so that if you’re disenrolled and you get sick and you go to a doctor or a hospital, they can requalify you and you can get it again. The problem is people who think that they’re disenrolled or are told that they’re disenrolled may not realize. They may not go to the doctor because they think they can’t afford it. They may not understand there’s a public education campaign there, too, that I haven’t seen. You know, if you get community health clinics, hospitals, they can do Medicare, Medicaid certification. But it’s dangerous, right? If you think, oh, I’m going to get a bill I can’t afford and I’m just going to see if I can tough this out, that’s not the way to take care of your health. So there’s that additional conundrum. And then, you know, I think that HHS can be flexible on special enrollment periods for those who are not Medicaid-eligible and are ACA-eligible, but most of them are still Medicaid-eligible.

Rovner: If you get kicked off of Medicaid, you get an automatic special enrollment for the ACA anyway.

Kenen: But not forever. If the issue is it’s in a language you don’t speak or at an address you don’t live in, or you just threw it out because you didn’t understand what it was — there is institutional failures in the health care system, and then there’s people have different addresses in three years, particularly poor people; they move around. There’s a communication gap. You know, I talked to a health care system a while ago in Indiana, a safety net, that was going through electronic health records and contacting people. And yet that’s Indiana and they, you know, I think it was Tami who pointed out a few weeks ago on the podcast, Indiana is not doing great, in spite of, you know, really more of a concerted effort than other states or at least other health systems, not that I talk to every single health system in the country. I was really impressed with how proactive they were being. And still people are falling, not just through the cracks. I mean, there’s just tons of cracks. It’s like, you know, this whole landscape of cracks.

Rovner: I think everybody knew this was going to be a big undertaking. And obviously the states that are trying to do it with some care are having problems because it’s a big undertaking. And the states that are doing it with a little bit less care are throwing a lot more people off of their health insurance. And we will continue to follow this. So it is the end of July. I’m still not sure how that happened.

Kenen: ’Cause after June, Julie.

Rovner: Yes. Thank you. July is often when committees in Congress rush to mark up bills that they hope to get to the floor and possibly to the president in that brief period when lawmakers return from the August recess before they go out for the year, usually around Thanksgiving. This year is obviously no exception. While Sen. Bernie Sanders [(I-Vt.)] at the Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee has delayed consideration of that primary care-community health center bill that we talked about last week until September, after Republicans rebelled against what was supposed to have been a bipartisan bill, committee action on pharmacy benefit managers and other Medicare issues did take place yesterday in the Senate Finance Committee and the House Ways and Means Committee. Sarah, you’re following this, right? What’s happening? And I mean, so we’ve now had basically all four of the committees that have some kind of jurisdiction over this who’ve acted. Is something going to happen on PBM regulation this year?

Karlin-Smith: Actually, five committees have acted because the House Ed[ucation] and Workforce Committee has also acted on the topic. So there’s a lot of committees with a stake in this. I think there’s certainly set up for something for the fall, end of the year, to happen in the pharmacy benefit manager space. And there’s a decent amount of bipartisanship around the issue, depending on exactly which committee you’re looking at. But even if the policies that haven’t gotten through haven’t been bipartisan, I think there’s general bipartisan interest among all the committees of tackling the issue. The question is how meaningful, I guess, the policies that we get done are. Right now it looks like what we’re going to end up with is some kind of transparency measure. It reminded me a little bit of our discussion of the mental health stuff [President Joe] Biden is doing going forward. Essentially what it’s going to end up doing is get the government a lot of detailed data about how PBMs operate, how this vertical integration of PBMs — so there’s a lot of common ownership between PBMs, health insurance plans, pharmacies and so forth — may be impacting the cost of our health care and perhaps in a negative way. And then from that point, the idea would be that later Congress could go back and actually do the sort of policy reforms that might be needed. So I know there are some people that are super excited about this transparency because it is such an opaque industry. But at the same point, you can’t kind of go to your constituents and say, “We’ve changed something,” right away or, you know, “We’re going to save you a ton of money with this kind of legislation.”

Rovner: You could tell how worried the PBMs are by how much advertising you see, if you still watch TV that has advertising, which I do, because I watch cable news. I mean, the PBMs are clearly anxious about what Congress might do. And given the fact that, as you point out and as we’ve been saying for years, drug prices are a very bipartisan issue — and it is kind of surprising, like mental health, it’s bipartisan, and they still haven’t been able to push this as far as I think both Democrats and Republicans would like for it to go. Is there anything in these bills that surprised you, that goes further than you expected or less far than expected?

Karlin-Smith: There’s been efforts to sort of delink PBM compensation from rebates. And in the past, when Congress has tried to look into doing this, it’s ended up being extremely costly to the government. And they figured out in this set of policies sort of how to do this without those costs, which is basically, they’re making sure that the PBMs don’t have this perverse incentive to make money off of higher-priced drugs. However, the health plans are still going to be able to do that. So it’s not clear how much of a benefit this will really be, because at this point, the health plans and the PBMs are essentially one and the same. They have the same ownership. But, you know, I do think there has been some kind of creativity and thoughtfulness on Congress’ part of, OK, how do we tackle this without also actually increasing how much the government spends? Because the government helps support a lot of the premiums in these health insurance programs.

Rovner: Yeah. So the government has quite a quite a financial stake in how this all turns out. All right. Well, we will definitely watch that space closely. Let us move on to abortion. In addition to it being markup season for bills like PBMs, it’s also appropriations season on Capitol Hill, with the Sept. 30 deadline looming for a completion of the 12 annual spending bills. Otherwise, large parts of the government shut down, which we have seen before in recent years. And even though Democrats and Republicans thought they had a spending detente with the approval earlier this spring of legislation to lift the nation’s debt ceiling, Republicans in the House have other ideas; they not only want to cut spending even further than the levels agreed to in the debt ceiling bill, but they want to add abortion and other social policy riders to a long list of spending bills, including not just the one for the Department of Health and Human Services but the one for the Food and Drug Administration, which is in the agriculture appropriations, for reasons I’ve never quite determined; the financial services bill, which includes funding for abortion in the federal health insurance plan for government workers; and the spending bill for Washington, D.C., which wants to use its own taxpayer money for abortion, and Congress has been making that illegal pretty much for decades. In addition to abortion bans, conservatives want riders to ban gender-affirming care and even bar the FDA from banning menthol cigarettes. So it’s not just abortion. It’s literally a long list of social issues. Now, this is nothing new. A half a dozen spending bills have carried a Hyde [Amendment] type of abortion ban language for decades, as neither Republicans nor Democrats have had the votes to either expand or take away the existing restrictions. On the other hand, these conservatives pushing all these new riders don’t seem to care if the government shuts down if these bills pass. And that’s something new, right?

Kenen: Over abortion it’s something new, but they haven’t cared. I mean, they’ve shut down the government before.

Rovner: That’s true. The last time was over Obamacare.

Kenen: Right. And, which, the great irony is the one thing they — when they shut down the government because Obamacare was mandatory, not just discretionary funding, Obamacare went ahead anyway. So, I mean, minor details, but I think this is probably going to be an annual battle from now on. It depends how hard they fight for how long. And with some of these very conservative, ultra-conservative lawmakers, we’ve seen them dig in on abortion, on other issues like the defense appointees. So I think it’s going to be a messy October.

Rovner: Yeah, I went back and pulled some of my old clips. In the early 1990s I used to literally keep a spreadsheet, and I think that’s before we had Excel, of which bill, which of the appropriations bills had abortion language and what the status was of the fights, because they were the same fights year after year after year. And as I said, they kind of reached a rapprochement at one point, or not even a rapprochement — neither side could move what was already there. At some point, they kind of stopped trying, although we have seen liberals the last few years try to make a run at the actual, the original Hyde Amendment that bans federal funding for most abortions — that’s in the HHS bill — and unsuccessfully. They have not had the votes to do that. Presumably, Republicans don’t have the votes now to get any of these — at least certainly not in the Senate — to get any of these new riders in. But as we point out, they could definitely keep the government closed for a while over it. I mean, in the Clinton administration, President [Bill] Clinton actually had to swallow a bunch of new riders because either it was that or keep the government closed. So that’s kind of how they’ve gotten in there, is that one side has sort of pushed the other to the brink. You know, everybody seems to assume at this point that we are cruising towards a shutdown on Oct. 1. Does anybody think that we’re not?

Kenen: I mean, I’m not on the Hill anymore, but I certainly expect a shutdown. I don’t know how long it lasts or how you resolve it. And I — even more certain we’ll have one next year, which, the same issues will be hot buttons five weeks before the elections. So whatever happens this year is likely to be even more intense next year, although, you know, next year’s far away and the news cycle’s about seven seconds. So, you know, I think this could be an annual fight and for some time to come, and some years will be more intense than others. And you can create a deal about something else. And, you know, the House moderates are — there are not many moderates — but they’re sort of more traditional conservatives. And there’s a split in the Republican Party in the House, and we don’t know who’s going to fold when, and we don’t — we haven’t had this kind of a showdown. So we don’t really know how long the House will hold out, because some of the more moderate lawmakers who are — they’re all up for reelection next year. I mean, some of them don’t agree. Some of are not as all or nothing on abortion as the —

Rovner: Well, there are what, a dozen and a half Republicans who are in districts that President Biden won who do not want to vote on any of these things and have made it fairly clear to their leadership that they do not want to vote on any of these things. But obviously the conservatives do.

Kenen: And they’ve been public about that. They’ve said it. I mean, we’re not guessing. Some of them spoke up and said, you know, leave it to the states. And that’s what the court decided. And they don’t want to nationalize this even further than it’s nationalized. And I think, you know, when you have the Freedom Caucus taking out Marjorie Taylor Greene, I mean, I have no idea what’s next.

Rovner: Yeah, things are odd. Well, I want to mention one more abortion story this week that I read in the newsletter “Abortion, Every Day,” by Jessica Valenti. And shoutout here: If you’re interested in this issue and you don’t subscribe, you’re missing out. I will include the link in the show notes. The story’s about Texas and the exam to become a board-certified obstetrician-gynecologist. The board that conducts the exam is based in Dallas and has been for decades, and Texas is traditionally where this test has been administered. During the pandemic, the exam was given virtually because nothing was really in person. But this year, if a doctor wants to become board-certified, he or she will have to travel to Texas this fall. And a lot of OB-GYNs don’t want to do that, for fairly obvious reasons, like they are afraid of getting arrested and sent to prison because of Texas’ extreme anti-abortion laws. And yikes, really, this does not seem to be an insignificant legal risk here for doctors who have been performing abortions in other states. This is quite the dilemma, isn’t it?

Karlin-Smith: Well, the other thing I thought was interesting about — read part of that piece — is just, she was pointing out that you might not just want to advertise in a state where a lot of people are anti-abortion that all of these people who perform abortions are all going to be at the same place at the same time. So it’s not just that they’re going to be in Texas. Like, if anybody wants to go after them, they know exactly where they are. So it can create, if nothing else, just like an opportunity for big demonstrations or interactions that might disrupt kind of the normal flow of the exam-taking.

Kenen: Or violence. Most people who are anti-abortion are obviously not violent, but we have seen political violence in this country before. And you just need one person, which, you know, we seem to have plenty of people who are willing to shoot at other people. I thought it was an excellent piece. I mean, I had not come across that before until you sent it around, and there’s a solution — you know, like, if you did it virtually before — and I wasn’t clear, or maybe I just didn’t pay attention: Was this certification or also recertification?

Rovner: No, this was just certification. Recertification’s separate. So these are these are young doctors who want to become board-certified for the first time.

Kenen: But the recertification issues will be similar. And this is a yearly — I mean, I don’t see why they just don’t give people the option of doing it virtual.

Rovner: But we’ll see if they back down. But you know, I had the same thought that Sarah did. It’s like, great, let’s advertise that everybody’s going to be in one place at one time, you know, taking this exam. Well, we’ll see how that one plays out. Well, finally this week, building on last week’s discussion on health and climate change and on drug shortages, a tornado in Rocky Mount, North Carolina, seriously damaged a giant Pfizer drug storage facility, potentially worsening several different drug shortages. Sarah, I remember when the hurricane in Puerto Rico seemed to light a fire under the FDA and the drug industry about the dangers of manufacturing being too centralized in one place. Now we have to worry about storage, too? Are we going to end up, like, burying everything underground in Fort Knox?

Karlin-Smith: I think there’s been a focus even since before [Hurricane] Maria, but that certainly brought up that there’s a lack of redundancy in U.S. medical supply chains and, really, global supply chains. It’s not so much that they need to be buried, you know, that we need bunkers. It’s just that — Pfizer had to revise the numbers, but I think the correct number was that that facility produces about 8% of the sterile kind of injectables used in the U.S. health system, 25% of all Pfizer’s — it’s more like each company or the different plants that produce these drugs, it needs to be done in more places so that if you have these severe weather events in one part of the country, there’s another facility that’s also producing these drugs or has storage. So I don’t know that these solutions need to be as extreme as you brought up. But I think the problem has been that when solutions to drug shortages have come up in Congress, they tend to focus on FDA authorities or things that kind of nibble around the edges of this issue, and no one’s ever really been able to address some of the underlying economic tensions here and the incentives that these companies have to invest in redundancy, invest in better manufacturing quality, and so forth. Because at the end of the day these are often some of the oldest and cheapest drugs we have, but they’re not necessarily actually the easiest to produce. While oftentimes we’re talking about very expensive, high-cost drugs here, this may be a case where we have to think about whether we’ve let the prices drop too low and that’s sort of keeping a market that works if everything’s going perfectly well but then leads to these shortages and other problems in health care.

Rovner: Yeah, the whole just-in-time supply chain. Well, before we leave this, Anna, since you’re our expert on this, particularly international manufacturing, I mean, has sort of what’s been happening domestically lit a fire under anybody who’s also worried about some of these, you know, overseas plants not living up to their safety requirements?

Edney: Well, I think there are these scary things happen like a tornado or hurricane and everybody is kind of suddenly paying attention. But I think that the decision-makers in the White House or on Capitol Hill have been paying attention a little bit longer. We’ve seen these cancer — I mean, for a long time not getting anything done, as Sarah mentioned — but recently, it’s sort of I think the initial spark there was these cancer drug shortages that, you know, people not being able to get their chemo. And that was from an overseas factory; that was from a factory in India that had a lot of issues, including shredding all of their quality testing documents and throwing them in a truck, trying to get it out of there before the FDA inspectors could even see it.

Kenen: That’s always very reassuring.

Edney: It is. Yeah. It makes you feel really good. And one bag did not make it out of the plant in time, so they just threw acid on it instead of letting FDA inspectors look at it. So it’s definitely building in this tornado. And what might come out of it if there are a lot of shortages, I haven’t seen huge concern yet from the FDA on that front. But I think that it’s something that just keeps happening. It’s not letting up. And, you know, my colleagues did a really good story yesterday. There’s a shortage of a certain type of penicillin you give to pregnant people who have syphilis. If you pass syphilis on to your baby, the baby can die or be born with a lot of issues — it’s not like if an adult gets syphilis — and they’re having to ration it, and adults aren’t getting treated fully for syphilis because the babies need it more so, and so this is like a steady march that just keeps going on. And there’s so many issues with the industry, sort of how it’s set up, what Sarah was talking about, that we haven’t seen anybody really be able to touch yet.

Rovner: We will continue to stay on top of it, even if nobody else does. Well, that is this week’s news. Now we will play my interview with KFF’s Céline Gounder, and then we will come back and do our extra credit. I am pleased to welcome back to the podcast Dr. Céline Gounder, KFF senior fellow and editor-at-large for public health, as well as an infectious disease specialist and epidemiologist in New York and elsewhere. Céline is here today to tell us about the second season of her podcast, “Epidemic,” which tells the story of the successful effort to eradicate smallpox and explores whether public health can accomplish such big things ever again. Céline, thank you for joining us.

Céline Gounder: It’s great to be here, Julie.

Rovner: So how did you learn about the last steps in the journey to end smallpox, and why did you think this was a story worth telling broadly now?

Gounder: Well, this is something I actually studied back when I was in college in the ’90s, and I did my senior thesis in college on polio eradication, and this was in the late ’90s, and we have yet to eradicate polio, which goes to show you how difficult it is to eradicate an infectious disease. And in the course of doing that research, I was an intern at the World Health Organization for a summer and then continued to do research on it during my senior year. I also learned a lot about smallpox eradication. I got to meet a lot of the old leaders of that effort, folks like D.A. Henderson and Ciro de Quadros. And fast-forward to the present day: I think coming out of covid we’re unfortunately not learning what at least I think are the lessons of that pandemic. And I think sometimes it’s easier to go back in time in history, and that helps to depoliticize things, when people’s emotions are not running as high about a particular topic. And my thought was to go back and look at smallpox: What are the lessons from that effort, a successful effort, and also to make sure to get that history while we still have some of those leaders with us today.

Rovner: Yes, you’re singing my song here. I noticed the first episode is called “The Goddess of Smallpox.” Is there really a goddess of smallpox?

Gounder: There is: Shitala Mata. And the point of this episode was really twofold. One was to communicate the importance of understanding local culture and beliefs, not to dismiss these as superstitions, but really as ways of adapting to what was, in this case, a very centuries-long reality of living with smallpox. And the way people thought about it was that in some ways it was a curse, but in some ways it was also a blessing. And understanding that dichotomy is also important, whether it’s with smallpox or other infectious diseases. It’s important to understand that when you’re trying to communicate about social and public health interventions.

Rovner: Yeah, because I think people don’t understand that public health is so unique to each place. I feel like in the last 50 years, even through HIV and other infectious diseases, the industrialized world still hasn’t learned very well how to deal with developing countries in terms of cultural sensitivity and the need for local trust. Why is this a lesson that governments keep having to relearn?

Gounder: Well, I would argue we don’t even do it well in our own country. And I think it’s because we think of health in terms of health care, not public health, in the United States. And that also implies a very biomedical approach to health issues. And I think the mindset here is very much, oh, well, once you have the biomedical tools — the vaccines, the diagnostics, the drugs — problem solved. And that’s not really solving the problem in a pandemic, where much of your challenge is really social and political and economic and cultural. And so if you don’t think about it in those terms, you’re really going to have a flat-footed response.

Rovner: So what should we have learned from the smallpox eradication effort that might have helped us deal with covid or might help us in the future deal with the next pandemic?

Gounder: Well, I think one side of this is really understanding what the local culture was, spending time with people in community to build trust. I think we came around to understanding it in part, in some ways, in some populations, in some geographies, but unfortunately, I think it was very much in the crisis and not necessarily a long-term concerted effort to do this. And that I think is concerning because we will face other epidemics and pandemics in the future. So, you know, how do you lose trust? How do you build trust? I think that’s a really key piece. Another big one is dreaming big. And Dr. Bill Foege — he was one of the leaders of smallpox eradication, went on to be the director of the CDC [Centers for Disease Control and Prevention] under President [Jimmy] Carter — one of the pieces of advice he’s given to me as a mentor over the years is you’ve got to be almost foolishly optimistic about getting things done, and don’t listen to the cynics and pessimists. Of course, you want to be pragmatic and understand what will or won’t work, but to take on such huge endeavors as eradicating smallpox, you do have to be very optimistic and remind yourself every day that this is something you can do if you put your mind to it.

Rovner: I noticed, at least in the first couple of episodes that I’ve listened to, the media doesn’t come out of this looking particularly good. You’re both a journalist and a medical expert. What advice do you have for journalists trying to cover big public health stories like this, like covid, like things that are really important in how you communicate this to the public?

Gounder: Well, I think one is try to be hyperlocal in at least some of your reporting. I think one mistake during the pandemic was having this very top-down perspective of “here is what the CDC says” or “here is what the FDA says” or whomever in D.C. is saying, and that doesn’t really resonate with people. They want to see their own experiences reflected in the reporting and they want to see people from their community, people they trust. And so I think that is something that we should do better at. And unfortunately, we’re also somewhat hampered in doing so because there’s been a real collapse of local journalism in most of the country. So it really does fall to places like KFF Health News, for example, to try to do some of that important reporting.

Rovner: We will all keep at it. Céline Gounder, thank you so much for joining us. You can find Season 2 of “Epidemic,” called “Eradicating Smallpox,” wherever you get your podcasts.

Gounder: Thanks, Julie.

Rovner: OK, we’re back. It’s time for our extra credit segment. That’s when we each recommend a story we read this week we think you should read too. As always, don’t worry if you miss it. We will post the links on the podcast page at kffhealthnews.org and in our show notes on your phone or other mobile device. Sarah, why don’t you go first this week?

Karlin-Smith: Sure. I took a look at a piece from Brenda Goodman at CNN called “They Took Blockbuster Drugs for Weight Loss and Diabetes. Now Their Stomachs Are Paralyzed,” and it’s a really good deep dive into — people probably have heard of Ozempic, Wegovy — these what are called GLP-1 drugs that have been used for diabetes. And we’ve realized in higher doses even for people without diabetes, they often are very helpful at losing weight, that that’s partially because they slow the passage of food through your stomach. And there are questions about whether for some people that is leading to stomach paralysis or other extreme side effects. And I think it’s a really interesting deep dive into the complicated world of figuring out, Is this caused by the drug? Is it caused by other conditions that people have? And then how should you counsel people about whether they should receive the drugs and the benefits outweighing the risks? So I think it’s like just a good thing for people to read when you sort of hear all this hype about a product and how great they must be, that it’s always a little bit more complicated than that. And it also brought up another aspect of it, which is how these drugs may impact people who are going to get surgery and anesthesia and just the importance of communicating this to your doctor so they know how to appropriately handle the drugs. Because if you still have food content in your stomach during a surgery, that can be extremely dangerous. And I thought just that aspect alone of this story is really interesting, because they talk about people maybe not wanting to even let their doctors know they’re on these drugs because of stigma surrounding weight loss. And just again, once you get a new medicine that might end up being taken by a lot of people, the complications or, you know, there’s the dynamics of how it impacts other parts of medicine, and we need to adjust.

Rovner: Yeah. And I think the other thing is, you know, we know these drugs are safe because people with diabetes have been taking them for, what, six or seven years. But inevitably, anytime you get a drug that lots more people take, then you start to see the outlier side effects, which, if it’s a lot of people, can affect a lot of people. Joanne.

Kenen: I have a piece from FERN, which is the Food & Environment Reporting Network and in partnership with Yale Environ 360, and it’s by Gabriel Popkin. And it’s called “Can Biden’s Climate-Smart Agriculture Program Live Up to the Hype?” And I knew nothing about smart agriculture, which is why I found this so interesting. So, this is an intersection of climate change and food, which is obviously also a factor in climate change. And there’s a lot of money from the Biden administration for farmers to use new techniques that are more green-friendly because as we all know, you know, beef and dairy, things that we thought were just good for us — maybe not beef so much — but, like, they’re really not so good for the planet we live on. So can you do things like, instead of using fertilizer, plant cover crops in the offseason? I mean, there’s a whole list of things that — none of us are farmers, but there’s also questions about are they going to work? Is it greenwashing? Is it stuff that will work but not in the time frame that this program is funding? How much of it’s going to go to big agribusiness, and how much of it is going to go to small farmers? So it’s one hand, it’s another. You know, there’s a lot of low-tech practices. We’re going to have to do absolutely everything we can on climate. We’re going to have to use a variety of — you know, very large toolkit. So it was interesting to me reading about these things that you can do that make agriculture, you know, still grow our food without hurting the planet, but also a lot of questions about, you know, is this really a solution or not? But, you know, I didn’t know anything about it. So it was a very interesting read.

Rovner: And boy, you think the drug companies are influential on Capitol Hill. Try going with big agriculture. Anna.

Edney: I’m going to toot my own horn for a second here —

Rovner: Please.

Edney: — and do one of my mini-investigations that I did, “Mineral Sunscreens Have Potential Hidden Dangers, Too.” So there’s been a lot of talk: Use mineral sunscreen to save the environment or, you know, for your own health potentially. But they’re white, they’re very thick. And, you know, people don’t want to look quite that ghostly. So what’s been happening lately is they’ve been getting better. But what I found out is a lot of that is due to a chemical — that is what people are trying to move away from, is chemical sunscreens — but the sunscreen-makers are using this chemical called butyloctyl salicylate. And you can read the article for kind of the issues with it. I guess the main one I would point out is, you know, I talked to the Environmental Working Group because they do these verifications of sunscreens based on their look at how good are they for your health, and a couple of their mineral ones had this ingredient in it. So when I asked them about it, they said, Oh, whoops; like, we do actually need to revisit this because it is a chemical that is not recommended for children under 4 to be using on their bodies. So there’s other issues with it, too — just the question of whether you’re really being reef-safe if it’s in there, and other things as well.

Rovner: It is hard to be safe and be good to the planet. My story this week is by Amy Littlefield of The Nation magazine, and it’s called “The Anti-Abortion Movement Gets a Dose of Post-Roe Reality.” It’s about her visit to the annual conference of the National Right to Life Committee, which for decades was the nation’s leading anti-abortion organization, although it’s been eclipsed by some others more recently. The story includes a couple of eye-opening observations, including that the anti-abortion movement is surprised that all those bans didn’t actually reduce the number of abortions by very much. As we know, women who are looking for abortions normally will find a way to get them, either in state or out of state or underground or whatever. And we also learned in this story that some in the movement are willing to allow rape and incest exceptions in abortion bills, which they have traditionally opposed, because they want to use those as sweeteners for bills that would make it easier to enforce bans, stronger bans, things like the idea in Texas of allowing individual citizens to use civil lawsuits and forbidding local prosecutors from declining to prosecute abortion cases. We’re seeing that in some sort of blue cities in red states. It’s a really interesting read and I really recommend it. OK. That is our show for this week. As always, if you enjoyed the podcast, you can subscribe where ever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left us a review; that helps other people find us, too. Special thanks, as always, to our producer, Francis Ying. Also as always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org. Or you can tweet me. I’m @jrovner, and I’m on Bluesky and Threads. Joanne.

Kenen: @joannekenen1 at Threads.

Rovner: Sarah.

Karlin-Smith: I’m @SarahKarlin or @sarah.karlinsmith, depending on which of these many social media platforms you’re looking at, though.

Rovner: Anna.

Edney: @annaedney on Twitter and @anna_edneyreports on Threads.

Rovner: You can always find us here next week where we will always be in your podcast feed. Until then, be healthy.

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Julie Rovner is chief Washington correspondent and host of KFF Health News’ weekly health policy news podcast, “What the Health?” A noted expert on health policy issues, Julie is the author of the critically praised reference book “Health Care Politics and Policy A to Z,” now in its third edition.

In this special episode of KFF Health News’ “What the Health?” host and chief Washington correspondent Julie Rovner leads a rare conversation with the current and two former secretaries of Health and Human Services. Taped before a live audience at Aspen Ideas: Health, part of the Aspen Ideas Festival, in Aspen, Colorado, Secretary Xavier Becerra and two of his predecessors, Kathleen Sebelius and Alex Azar, talk candidly about what it takes to run a department with more than 80,000 employees and a budget larger than those of many countries.

Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:

• The Department of Health and Human Services is much more than a domestic agency. It also plays a key role in national security, the three HHS secretaries explained, describing the importance of the “soft diplomacy” of building and supporting health systems abroad.
• Each HHS secretary — Sebelius, who served under former President Barack Obama; Azar, who served under former President Donald Trump; and Becerra, the current secretary, under President Joe Biden — offered frank, sobering, and even funny stories about interacting with the White House. “Anything you thought you were going to do during the day often got blown up by the White House,” Sebelius said. Asked what he was unprepared for when he started the job, Azar quipped: “The Trump administration.”
• Identifying their proudest accomplishment as the nation’s top health official, Azar and Becerra both cited their work responding to the covid-19 pandemic, specifically Operation Warp Speed, the interagency effort to develop and disseminate vaccines, and H-CORE, which Becerra described as a quiet successor to Warp Speed. They also each touted their respective administrations’ efforts to regulate tobacco.
• Having weathered recent debates over the separation of public policy and politics at the top health agency, the panel discussed how they’ve approached balancing the two in decision-making. For Becerra, the answer was unequivocal: “We use the facts and the science. We don’t do politics.”

Click to open the transcript

Transcript: Live From Aspen: Three HHS Secretaries on What the Job Is Really Like

KFF Health News’ ‘What the Health?’

Episode Title: Live From Aspen: Three HHS Secretaries on What the Job Is Really Like

Episode Number: 303

Published: June 22, 2023

[Editor’s note: This transcript, generated using transcription software, has been edited for style and clarity.]

Julie Rovner: Hello and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Julie Rovner, coming to you this week from the Aspen Ideas: Health conference in Aspen, Colorado. We have a cool special for you this week. For the first time, the current secretary of Health and Human Services sat down for a joint interview with two of his predecessors. This was taped before a live audience on Wednesday evening, June 21, in Aspen. So, as we like to say, here we go.

Hello. Good evening. Welcome to Aspen Ideas: Health. I’m Julie Rovner. I’m the chief Washington correspondent for KFF Health News and also host of KFF Health News’ health policy podcast, “What the Health?,” which you are now all the audience for, so thank you very much. I’m sure these people with me need no introduction, but I’m going to introduce them anyway because I think that’s required.

Immediately to my left, we are honored to welcome the current U.S. secretary of Health and Human Services, Xavier Becerra. Secretary Becerra is the first Latino to serve in this post. He was previously attorney general of the state of California. And before that, he served in the U.S. House of Representatives for nearly 25 years, where, as a member of the powerful Ways and Means Committee, he helped draft and pass what’s now the Affordable Care Act. Thank you for joining us.

Next to him, we have Kathleen Sebelius, who served as secretary during the Obama administration from 2009 to 2014, where she also helped pass and implement the Affordable Care Act. I first met Secretary Sebelius when she was Kansas’ state insurance commissioner, a post she was elected to twice. She went on to be elected twice as governor of the state, which is no small feat in a very red state for a Democrat. Today, she also consults on health policy and serves on several boards, including — full disclosure — that of my organization, KFF. Thank you so much for being here.

And on the end we have Alex Azar, who served as HHS secretary from 2018 to 2021 and had the decidedly mixed privilege of leading the department through the first two years of the covid pandemic, which I’m sure was not on his to-do list when he took the job. At least Secretary Azar came to the job with plenty of relevant experience. He’d served in the department previously as HHS deputy secretary and as general counsel during the George W. Bush administration and later as a top executive at U.S. drugmaker Eli Lilly. Today, he advises a health investment firm, teaches at the University of Miami Herbert Business School, and sits on several boards, including the Aspen Institute’s. So, thank you.

Former Secretary of Health and Human Services Alex Azar: Thank you.

Rovner: So I know you’re not here to listen to me, so we’re going to jump in with our first question. As I’m sure we will talk about in more detail, HHS is a vast agency that includes, just on the health side, agencies including the Food and Drug Administration, the National Institutes of Health, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, and the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services. The department has more than 80,000 employees around the country and throughout the world and oversees more than one and a half trillion dollars of federal funding each year. I want to ask each of you — I guess we’ll start with you — what is the one thing you wish the public understood about the department that you think they don’t really now?

Secretary of Health and Human Services Xavier Becerra: Given everything you just said, I wish people would understand that the Constitution left health care to the states. And so, as big as we are and as much as we do — Medicare, Medicaid, CHIP [Children’s Health Insurance Program], Obamacare — we still don’t control or drive health care. The only way we get in the game is when we put money into it. And that’s why people do Medicare, because we put money into it. States do Medicaid because we put money into it. And it became very obvious with covid that the federal government doesn’t manage health care. We don’t have a national system of health or public health. We have a nationwide system of public health where 50 different states determine what happens, and so one state may do better than another, and we’re out there trying to make it work evenhandedly for everyone in America. But it’s very tough because we don’t have a national system of public health.

Rovner: Secretary, what’s the thing that you wish people understood about HHS?

Former Secretary of Health and Human Services Kathleen Sebelius: Well, I agree with what Secretary Becerra has said, but it always made me unhappy that people don’t understand fully, I don’t think, the international role that HHS plays, and it is so essential to the safety and security and resilience of the United States. So we have employees across the world. CDC has employees in about 40 other countries, and helping to build health systems in various parts of the world, sharing information about how you stand up a health system, what a great hospital looks like. NIH does experiments and clinical trials all over the globe and is regarded as the gold standard. And we actually, I think, at HHS were able to do what they call soft diplomacy. And a lot of countries aren’t eager to have the State Department involved. They’re certainly not eager to see soldiers. Our trade policies make some people uncomfortable. But they welcome health professionals. They welcome the opportunity to learn from the United States. So it’s really a way often to get into countries and make friendships. And we need to monitor across the globe, as covid showed so well. When an outbreak happens someplace else in the world, we can’t wait for it to arrive on the border of the United States. Safety and security of American citizens really depends on global information exchange, a global surveillance exchange. The CDC has also trained epidemiologists in regions around the world so that they can be faster and share information. And I think too often in Congress, those line items for foreign trips, for offices elsewhere, people say, “Well, we don’t really need that. We should focus all our attention on America.” But I’ve always thought, if folks really understood how integral it is not just to our health security, but really national security, that we have these partnerships — and it’s, as I say, I think the best soft diplomacy and the cheapest soft diplomacy underway is to send health professionals all over the globe and to make those friendships.

Rovner: Do you think people understand that better since covid?

Sebelius: Maybe. You know, but some people reacted, unfortunately, to covid, saying, “Well, we put up bigger walls, and we” — I mean, no disease needs a passport, no wall stops things from coming across our borders. And I’m not sure that still is something that people take to heart.

Rovner: Secretary Azar, you actually have the most — in terms of years — experience at the department. What is it that people don’t know that they should?

Azar: So I probably would have led with what Secretary Becerra said about just how highly decentralized the public health infrastructure and leadership and decision-making is in the United States. I mean, it really — all those calls are made, and it’s not even just the 50 states. It’s actually 62 public health jurisdictions, because we separately fund a whole series of cities. I’ll concur in that. I’d say the other thing that people probably don’t understand, and maybe this is too inside baseball, is the secretary of HHS is, on the one hand, probably the most powerful secretary in the Cabinet and, on the other hand, also quite weak. So literally every authority, almost every authority, in the thousands and thousands of pages of U.S. statute that empower programs at HHS, say, “The secretary shall …” So the FDA, the CDC, CMS, all of these programs really operate purely by delegation of the secretary, because Secretary Becerra allows them to make decisions or to run programs. They are his authorities. And so the media, then, when the secretary acts, will … [unintelligible] … “How dare you,” you know, “how dare you be involved in this issue or that issue?” Well, it is legally and constitutionally Secretary Becerra’s job. And, on the other hand, you are supervising — it’s like a university, because you’re also supervising operating divisions that are global household brands. It is really like being a university president, for all that’s good and evil of that. You have to lead by consensus. You have to lead by bringing people along. You are not a dictator, in spite of what the U.S. statutes say. It’s very, very similar to that — that you, the secretary, is both powerful, but also has to really lead a highly matrixed, consensus-based organization to get things done.

Rovner: You’re actually leading perfectly into my next question, which is, how do you juggle all the moving pieces of this department? Just putting the agency heads in one room could fill a room this size. So tell us what sort of an average day for each of you would look like as secretary, if there’s such a thing as an average day.

Azar: Well, first, not an average administration, so take with a grain of salt my average day. So, interspersed among the two to five phone calls with the president of the United States between 7 a.m. and midnight, you know, other than that, um — I started every day meeting with my — you know, as secretary, you’ve got to have a team around you that’s not just your operating divisions, but I would start every morning — we would have just a huddle with chief of staff, deputy chief of staff, my head of public affairs. Often my general counsel would join that, my legislative leader. Just what’s going to hit us in the face today? Like, what are we trying to do, and what’s going to hit us in the face today? Just a situational awareness, every morning at about 8 a.m., quick huddle on that, and then diving into really the rhythm of the day of — I tried to drive — I use a book that I helped actually do some of the work on called “The 4 Disciplines of Execution,” just a tool of how do you focus and drive change in very complex organizations? So I tried to focus on four key initiatives that I spent as much of my time as secretary on leading and pushing on, and so I tried to make sure as much of my time was doing that. But then it’s reactive. You’re having to go to White House meetings constantly. You have to sign off on every regulation at the department. And so you’re in meetings just getting briefed and deciding approve or disapprove, so that rhythm constantly, and then add travel in, add evening commitments, add speeches. I’d say the biggest challenge you have as a leader in HHS is that first point of, focus, because you could be like a bobber on the water, just going with whatever’s happening, if you don’t have a maniacally focused agenda of, “I’ve got a limited amount of time. I’m going to drive change here. And if I don’t spend time every day pushing the department on this issue, being basically a burr in the saddle to make it happen, it won’t.” And you’ve just got to constantly be on that.

Rovner: Secretary Sebelius, what did your average day look like?

Sebelius: Well, I’m not going to repeat what Alex has just said. A lot of that goes on in the daily routine. First of all, I think all of us would be sent home the night before with a binder of materials — briefings for what you’re going to do the next day. So you may have 10 meetings, but each of those has a 20-page brief behind it. And then what the issues are, what the questions might be. So that’s your homework often that you’re leaving with at 7 or 8 at night. I like to run in the morning, and I would get up, read my schedule, and then go out and run on the [National] Mall because it sort of cleared my head. I’m proud of having — some of the folks may still be here — none of the detail ran before I started running, and my deal with them was, “I’m much older than you are, you know. We’re all going to run.”

Azar: They still —

Sebelius: Oh, here we go.

Azar: They still talk about it.

Sebelius: Well, one of them got to be a great marathon runner, you know. Can’t hurt. One guy started riding a bike, and I was like, “What are you doing?” I mean, if I fall, what are you going to do with the bike? I mean, am I going to carry it, are you going to carry it? I mean, who — anyway, so I started that way. You’d go then into the office. And one of the things that was not mentioned is HHS has an amazing, camera-ready studio, TV studio, that lots of other Cabinet agencies used. It has a setting that looks like “The View.” It has a stool that you can look in cameras, but two or three days a week we would do what they call “Around the Country.” So you would sit in a stool, and I’d be doing updates on the ACA or a pitch to enrollment or something about a disease, and you would literally have a cue card up that would say “Minneapolis, Andrea.” And I would say, “Good morning, Andrea.” And we would do a two-second spot in Minneapolis and they’d have numbers for me and then the camera would switch and it would be Bob in St. Louis. “Hello, Bob. How are you?” So that was a morning start that’s a little bit different. Anything you thought you were going to do during the day often got blown up by the White House: somebody calling, saying, you know, “The president wants this meeting,” “the vice president’s calling this.” So then the day gets kind of rearranged. And I think the description of who the key staff are around, but 12 operating agencies — any one of them could be a much more than full-time job. So just getting to know the NIH or, you know, seeing what CDC in Atlanta does every day, but trying to keep the leadership in touch, in tune, and make sure that — one of the things that, having been a governor and working with Cabinet agencies, that I thought was really important, is everybody has some input on everything. These are the stars, the agency heads. They know much more about health and their agencies than I would ever know. But making sure that I have their input and their lens on every decision that was made. So we had regular meetings where the flatter the organization, the better, as far as I’m concerned. They were all there and they gave input into policy decisions. But it is not a boring job and it’s never done. You just had to say at the end of the day, with this giant book, “OK, that’s enough for today. I’ll start again tomorrow, and there’ll be another giant book and here we go.”

Rovner: And your day, since you’re doing it now?

Becerra: I don’t know if it’s the pleasure or the bane of starting off virtually. Almost everything we did was via Zoom. I didn’t meet many of my team until months into the term because we were in the midst of covid. So we would start the days usually pretty early in the morning with Zooms and it would go one Zoom after the other. Of course, once we started doing more in-person activities, schedulers still thought they could schedule you pretty much one right after the other, and so they pack in as much as they can. I think all of us would say we’re just blessed to have some of the most talented people. I see Commissioner Califf from the FDA over there in the room. I will tell you, it’s just a yes … [applause] … . It’s a blessing to get to serve with these folks. They are the best in their fields. And you’re talking about some pretty critical agencies, FDA, NIH, CDC, CMS. I mean, the breadth, the jurisdiction, of CMS is immense. They do fabulous work. They are so committed. And so it makes it a lot easier. And then, of course, we all — we each have had — I have my group of counselors who are essentially my captains of the different agencies, and they help manage, because without that it would be near-impossible. And these are people who are younger, but my God, they’re the folks that every CEO looks for to sort of help manage an agency, and they’re so committed to the task. And so I feel like a kid in a candy store because I’m doing some of the things that I worked on so long when I was a member of Congress and could never get over the finish line. Now I get to sort of nudge everything over the finish line, and it really is helpful, as Alex said, to remind people that the statute does say, “The secretary shall … ,” not someone else, “the secretary shall … .” And so, at the end of the day, you get to sort of weigh it. And so it’s a pleasure to work with very talented, committed people.

Sebelius: Julie, I want to throw in one more thing, because I think this is back to what people don’t know, but it’s also about our days. There’s an assumption, when administrations change, the whole agency changes, right? Washington all changes. In a department like HHS, 90,000 employees scattered in the country and around the world, there are about 900 total political appointees, and they are split among all the agencies and the secretary’s office there. So you’re really talking about this incredibly talented team of professionals who are running those agencies and have all the health expertise, with the few people across the top that may try to change directions and put — but I think there’s an assumption that sort of the whole group sweeps out and somebody else sweeps in, and that really is not the case.

Rovner: So, as I mentioned, all three of you had relevant government experience before you came to HHS. Secretary Sebelius, you were a governor, so you knew about running a large organization. I want to ask all three of you, did you really understand what you were getting into when you became secretary? And is there some way to grow up to become HHS secretary?

Azar: I mean, yeah, I — yeah, I have no excuse. My first day, right after getting sworn in — the secretary has a private elevator that goes directly up to the sixth floor where the suite is, the deputy secretary’s office to the right, secretary to the left — my first day, I’m up, headed up with my security detail, and I get off and I walk off to the right. “Mr. Secretary, no, no, no. It’s this way.” Literally, it was like — it had been 11 years, but it was like coming home to me. I was literally about to walk into my old office as deputy secretary, and they show me to the secretary’s office. And I think for the first three months, I kept thinking Tommy Thompson or Mike Leavitt was going to walk in and say, “Get the hell out of my office.” And no, so it, and it was the same people, as Secretary Sebelius said. I knew all the top career people. I’d worked with them over the course of — in and out of government — 20 years. So it was very much a “coming home” for me. And it was many of the same issues were still the same issues. Sustainable growth rate — I mean, whatever else, it was all the same things going on again, except the ACA was new. That was a new nice one you gave me to deal with also. So, yeah, thank you.

Sebelius: You’re welcome. We had to have something new.

Rovner: What were you unprepared for when you took on this job?

Azar: Well, for me, the Trump administration.

Rovner: Yeah, that’s fair.

Azar: I, you know, had come out of the Bush administration. You’re at Eli Lilly. I mean, you know, you’re used to certain processes and ways people interact. And, you know, it’s just — it was different.

Sebelius: I had a pretty different experience. The rhythm of being a governor and being a Cabinet secretary is pretty similar. Cabinet agencies, working with the legislative process, the budget. So I kind of had that sense. I had no [Capitol] Hill experience. I had not worked on the Hill or served on the Hill, so that was a whole new entity. You’re not by protocol even allowed in the department until you’re confirmed. So I had never even seen the inside of the office. I mean, Alex talked about being confused about which way to turn. I mean, I had no idea [about] anything on the sixth floor. I hadn’t ever been there. My way of entering the department — I was President [Barack] Obama’s second choice. [Former South Dakota Democratic Senator] Tom Daschle had been nominated to be HHS secretary. And that was fine with me. And I said, “I’m a governor. I’ve got two more years in my term. I’ll join you sometime.” And then when Sen. Daschle withdrew, the president came back to me and said, “OK, how about, would you take this job if you’re able to get it?” And I said, “Yes, that’s an agency that’s interesting and challenging.” So I still was a governor, so I was serving as governor, flying in and out of D.C. to get briefings so I could go through hearings on this department that I didn’t know a lot about and had never really worked with, and then would go back and do my day job in Kansas. And the day that the Senate confirmation hearing began, a call came to our office from the White House. And this staffer said, “This governor? “Yes.” “President Obama has a plane in the air. It’s going to land at Forbes Air Force Base at noon. We want you on the plane.” And I said, you know, “That’s really interesting, but I don’t have a job yet. And I actually have a job here in Kansas. And here’s my plan. You know, my plan is I’m going to wait until I get confirmed and then I’ll resign and then I’ll get on the plane and then I’ll come to D.C.” And they said, “The president has a plane in the air, and it will land. He wants you on the plane.” First boss I’d had in 20 years. And I thought, “Oh, oh, OK. That’s a new thing.” So I literally left. Secretary Azar has heard this story earlier, but I left an index card on my desk in Kansas that said, “In the event I am confirmed, I hereby resign as governor.” And it was notarized and left there because I thought, I’m not giving up this job, not knowing if I will have another job. But halfway across the country I was confirmed and they came back and said — so I land and I said, “Where am I going?” I, literally, where — I mean, I’m all by myself, you know, it’s like, where am I going? “You’re going to the White House. The president’s going to swear you in.” “Great.” Except he couldn’t swear me in. He didn’t have the statutory authority, it turns out, so he could hold the Bible and the Cabinet secretary could swear me in. And then I was taken to the Situation Room, with somebody leading the way because I’d never been to the Situation Room. And the head of the World Health Organization was on the phone, the health minister from Canada, the health minister from Mexico, luckily my friend Janet Napolitano, who was Department of Homeland Security secretary — because we were in the middle of the H1N1 outbreak, swine flu, nobody knew what was going on. It was, you know, an initial pandemic. And everybody met and talked for a couple of hours. And then they all got up and left the room and I thought, woo-hoo, I’m the Cabinet secretary, you know, and they left? And somebody said to me later, well, “Does the White House find you a place to live?” I said, “Absolutely not. Nobody even asked if I had a place to stay.” I mean, it was 11 o’clock at night. They were all like, “Good night,” “goodbye,” “see ya.” So I luckily had friends in D.C. who I called and said, “Are you up? Can I come over? I’d like somebody to say, ‘Yay,’ you know, ‘we’re here.’” So that’s how I began.

Rovner: So you are kind of between these two. You have at least a little more idea of what it entailed. But what were you unprepared for in taking on this job?

Becerra: Probably the magnitude. Having served in Congress, I knew most of the agencies within HHS. I had worked very closely with most of the bigger agencies at HHS. As AG — Alex, I apologize — I sued HHS quite a —

Azar: He sued me a lot.

Becerra: Quite a few times.

Azar: Becerra v. Azar, all over the place.

Becerra: But the magnitude. I thought running the largest department of justice in the land other than the U.S. Department of Justice was a pretty big deal. But then you land and you have this agency that just stretches everywhere. And I agree with everything that Kathleen said earlier about the role that we play internationally. We are some of the best ambassadors for this country in the world because everyone wants you to help them save lives. And so it really helps. So the magnitude — it just struck me. When President Biden came in, we lost the equivalent of about — what, 13 9/11 twin tower deaths one day. Every day we were losing 11 twin tower deaths. And it hits you: You’ve got to come up with the answer yesterday. And so the White House is not a patient place, and they want answers quickly. And so you’re just, you’re on task. And it really is — it’s on you. You really — it smothers you, because you can’t let it go. And whether it was covid at the beginning or monkeypox last year, all of a sudden we see monkeypox, mpox, starting to pop up across the country. And it was, could this become the next covid? And so right away you’ve got to smother it. And the intensity is immediate. Probably the thing that I wasn’t prepared for as well, along with the magnitude, was, as I said, the breadth. Came in doing all these Zooms virtually to try to deal with the pandemic. But probably the thing that I had to really zero in on even more, that the president was expecting us to zero in on more, was migrant kids at the border and how you deal with not having a child sleep on a cement floor with an aluminum blanket and just trying to deal with that. It won’t overwhelm you necessarily, but — and again, thank God you’ve got just people who are so committed to this, because at any hour of the day and night, you’re working on these things — but the immensity of the task, because it’s real. And other departments also have very important responsibilities — clearly, Department of Defense, Department of State. But really it truly is life-and-death at HHS. So the gravity, it hits you, and it’s nonstop.

Rovner: All three of you were secretary at a time when health was actually at the top of the national agenda — which is not true. I’ve been covering HHS since 1986, and there have been plenty of secretaries who sort of were in the back of the administration, if you will, but you all really were front and center in all of these things. I want to go to sort of down the line. What was the hardest decision you had to make as secretary?

Becerra: Um …

Rovner: You’re not finished yet. I should say so far.

Becerra: I mean, there have been a lot of tough decisions, but, you know, when your team essentially prepares them up and you have all this discussion, but by the time it gets to me, it really has been baked really, really well. And now it’s sort of, White House is looking at this, we are seeing some of this, we’ve got to make a call. And again, Dr. Califf could speak to this as well. At the end of the day, the decisions aren’t so much difficult. It’s that they’re just very consequential. Do you prepare for a large surge in omicron and therefore spend a lot of money right now getting ready? Or do you sort of wait and see a little bit longer, preserve some of your money so you can use some of that money to do the longer-term work that needs to be done to prepare for the next generation of the viruses that are coming? Because once you spend the dollar, you don’t have it anymore. So you got to make that call. Those are the things that you’re constantly dealing with. But again, it just really helps to have a great team.

Sebelius: So I would say I was totally fortunate that the pandemic we dealt with was relatively short-lived and luckily far, far milder than what consumed both the secretaries to my left and right, and that was fortunate. A lot of our big decision areas were under the rubric of the Affordable Care Act and both trying to get it passed and threading that needle but then implementation. And I — you know, thinking about that question, Julie, I would say one of the toughest decisions — just because it provided a real clash between me and some of the people in the White House; luckily, at the end of the day, not the president, but — was really about the contraception coverage. Reproductive health had been something I’d worked on as a legislator, as governor. I felt very strongly about it. We’d fought a lot of battles in Kansas around it, and part of the Affordable Care Act was a preventive services benefit around contraceptive care. And that was going to be life-changing for a lot of women. And how broad it should be, how many battles we were willing to take on, how that could be implemented became a clash. And I think there were people in the administration who were hopeful that you could avoid clashes. So just make a compromise, you know, eliminate this group or that group, who may get unhappy about it. And at the end of the day, I was helped not just by people in the department, but mobilized some of my women Cabinet friends and senior White House women friends. And we sort of had a little bit of a facedown. And as I say, the president ended up saying, “OK, we’ll go big. We’ll go as big as we possibly can.” But I look back on that as a — I mean, it was a consequential decision, and it was implementation — not passing the rag in the first place, but implementing it. And it had a big impact. A big impact. It’s not one I regret, but it got a little a little tense inside, but what would be friendly meetings.

Azar: I’d use the divide Secretary Becerra talked about, which is that consequential versus hard decisions, that a lot — I think one could have a Hamlet-like character. I don’t. And so making the call when it comes to you wasn’t a terribly difficult thing, even. These are life-and-death decisions, but still yourself, you know your thought processes, you think it through, it’s been baked very well, you’ve heard all sides. You just have to make that call. So I’d maybe pivot to probably it’s more of a process thing. The hardest aspect for me was just deciding when do you fight and when do you not fight with, say, the White House? What hills do you die on? And where do you say, “Yeah, not what I would do, but I just have to live to fight another day.” Those were probably the toughest ones to really wrestle with.

Rovner: Was there one where you really were ready to die on the hill?

Azar: There were a lot. There were a lot. I mean, I’ll give you one example. I mean, I left a lot of blood on the field of battle just to try to outlaw pharmaceutical rebates, to try to push those through to the point of sale. I probably stayed to the end just to get that dag — because I, the opponents had left the administration and I finally got that daggone rule across the finish line right at the end. And that was something that I felt incredibly strongly that you could never actually change. I’ve lived inside that world. You could never change the dynamic of pharmaceutical drug pricing without passing through rebates to the point of sale. And I had so many opponents to get that done. It was a three-year constant daily battle that felt vindicated then to get it done. But that was a fight.

Rovner: And of course, I can’t help but notice that all of the things that you all are talking about are things that are still being debated today. None of them are completely resolved. Let’s turn this around a little bit. I wanted to ask you what you’re most proud of actually getting accomplished. Was it the rebate rule? That was a big deal.

Azar: For me, it has to be Operation Warp Speed. …[applause] … Yeah. Thank you. That was just — I mean, and I don’t want to take the credit. I mean, it was public-private. Mark Esper, this could not have happened without the partnership of the Defense Department, and it could not have happened without Mark Esper as secretary, because — I guarantee you, I’ve dealt with a lot of SecDefs in my career — and when the secretary of defense says to you, “Alex, you have the complete power and support of the Department of Defense. You just tell me what you need.” I haven’t heard those words before. And he was a partner and his whole team a partner throughout. And when you have the muscle of the U.S. military behind you to get something done, it is miraculous what happens. I mean, we were making hundreds of millions of doses of commercial-scale vaccine in June of 2020, when we were still in phase 2 clinical trials. We were just making it at risk. So we’re pumping this stuff out. And in one of the factories, a pump goes down. The pump is on the other side of the country on a train. The U.S. military shoots out a fighter jet, it gets out there, stops the train, pulls the train over, puts it on a helicopter, gets it on the jet, zips it off to the factory. We have colonels at every single manufacturing facility, and they get this installed. We’re up and running within 24 hours. It would have taken six to nine months under normal process. But the U.S. military got that done. So that for me was like just — the other two quick, one was banning flavored e-cigarettes. We got 25% reduction in youth use of tobacco in 12 months as a result of that. And then one of the great public health victories that this country had and the world had got ignored because it got concluded in June of 2020: We had the 11th Ebola outbreak. It was in the war zone in the eastern Democratic Republic of the Congo. This was the pandemic I was really, really worried about. One-hundred seventy-four warring groups in the war zone in the eastern Congo. Got [WHO Director-General] Tedros [Adhanom Ghebreyesus] and [then-Director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases Anthony] Fauci and [then-CDC Director Robert] Redfield, and we went over and we went on the ground and we got that. And by June of 2020, that one got out, which was a miracle of global public health. I’m with Kathleen on that one; I think global public health is a key instrument of American power projection humanity around the world. Sorry to go so long.

Rovner: It’s OK. Your turn.

Sebelius: I think proudest is the ability to participate in the Affordable Care Act and push that over the finish line. And for me, it was a really personal journey. My father was in Congress and was one of the votes for Medicare and Medicaid to be passed, so that chunk of the puzzle. I was the insurance commissioner in Kansas when the Republican governor asked me to do the implementation of the Children’s Health Insurance Program. So I helped with that piece. I was on President [Bill] Clinton’s patient protection commission and ended up with a lot of that package in the Affordable Care Act. And then finally to work for and support and watch a president who basically said when he announced for president, “This is my priority in my first term: I want to pass a major health care bill.” And a lot of people had made that pledge. But 15 months later, there was a bill on his desk and he signed it, and we got to implement it. So that was thrilling. Yeah. And, I should tell you, then-Congressman Becerra was one of the wingmen in the House who I worked with carefully, who — there was no better vote counter than Nancy Pelosi, but by her side was this guy, part of her delegation, named Xavier Becerra, who was whipping the votes into place. So he played a key role in making sure that crossed the finish line.

Becerra: So I’m still here, so you’re going to have to —

Rovner: You can change your answer later.

Becerra: I need a bit of grace here, because I’m going to start with Warp Speed, because I bet no one here knows there’s no longer a Operation Warp Speed. It’s now called H-CORE. And the reason I’m very proud of that is because you don’t know that it’s now H-CORE. And what makes it such a good thing is that the Department of Defense no longer has any role in the protection of the American people from covid. It’s all done in-house at HHS. Everything used to be done essentially under the auspices of the Department of Defense, because they are just the folks that can get things done in 24 hours. We do that now, and it’s the operations that were begun a while back. Kathleen had them, Alex had them. Our ASPR, that’s our Preparedness and Response team, they’re doing phenomenal work, but you don’t know it, and you don’t know that H-CORE took to flight in the first year of the Biden administration. By December of 2021, Department of Defense had transferred over all those responsibilities to us, and we’ve been doing it since. But if you ask me what am I most proud of, it’s, I mean, there are more Americans today than ever in the history of this country who have the ability to pay for their own health care because they have health insurance, more than 300 million. Part of that is Obamacare; a record number, 16 and a half million Americans, get their insurance through the marketplaces, and we haven’t stopped yet. There are close to 700 million shots of covid vaccine that have gone into the arms of Americans. That’s never been done in the history of this country. Some of you are probably familiar with three digits, 988, at a time when Americans are … [applause] … 9 in 10 Americans would tell you that America is experiencing a mental health crisis, especially with our youth. And Congress got wise and said, instead of having in different parts of the country, based on region, you could call a phone number for a suicide lifeline, if you didn’t know the 10-digit number or what part of the country you were in, you were out of luck — today, all you have to do is dial 988. But as I said before, federal government doesn’t run mental health. It’s all done by the states. But President Biden is very committed to mental health. His budgets have surpassed any type of investments that have been called for by any president in history for mental health. And he was very committed to 988 to make sure it launched right. And so we have, by exponential numbers, put money into 988 to make sure every state was ready to have it launch. And so by July of 2022, we launched 988, and it is working so well that people are actually calling — actually, not just calling. We now have a text feature and a chat feature because surprise, surprise, young people prefer not to call; they actually prefer to text. And we have increased the number of Americans who are reaching out by over 2 million, which is great, but it’s also not great because it shows you how much Americans are hurting. So there’s so many things I can tell you that I feel very good about that we’re doing. We’re not done. We’re moving beyond on tobacco where Alex left. We’re now moving to ban menthol in cigarettes. Menthol cigarettes are the most popular brand of cigarettes in America. They hook you because of the menthol, and we’re moving to extract menthol. We’re moving to ban flavored cigars and cigarillos. And we may be on course to try to see if we can move to extract as much nicotine out of tobacco as possible before it becomes a product on the market for folks to smoke. So we’re doing a whole lot of things there. And obviously on vaping, e-cigarettes as well — and Dr. Califf could mention that. But I’ll say the thing I’m probably most proud of is that, out of all the government agencies in America, federal government agencies, HHS ranks No. 2 as the best place to work. And I will tell you we’re No. 2, because if we had the capacity to tell our workforce, we will fly you to the moon and back the way NASA does, we’d be No. 1. So that’s what I think I’m most proud of, is that people, as hard as we work them, still say, “Come work at HHS.”

Rovner: So all of you have mentioned these things that were really hard to do because of politics. And you’ve all talked about how some of these decisions, when they get to you, have been baked by your staff and, you know, they vetted it with every side. But I think the public feels like politics determine everything. And I think you all would like to think that policy is what helps determine most things. So, what’s the balance? How much does politics determine what gets done, and how much is it just the idea that this would be the right policy for the American public?

Azar: Mike Leavitt, who was the secretary when I was deputy secretary, he had a phrase, and I’ll probably mangle it, but it was essentially, “Facts for science, and politics for policy.” And it’s important to remember this distinction. So, facts are facts. You gather data. We are especially a data-generating agency. But on top of that are policy overlays. And there are choices that are made about how do you use those facts? What do those facts mean? What are the implications? The United States Constitution vests under Article 2 in the president of the United States to make those choices and, as his delegee, the secretary and the other appointed leaders of the department. So there’s often this notion of politicizing science, but it’s, are there facts? Facts are facts. You generate facts. But what are the implications for policymaking? And I don’t think there’s anything illegitimate — I think is completely appropriate, whether a Democratic or Republican president — that you look and you consider all kinds of factors. Because for instance, for me, I’m going to look at things very much from a public health lens as I assess things. The secretary of the treasury, the secretary of commerce, may bring a completely and important different perspective to the table that I don’t bring. And it’s completely legitimate that that gets factored on top of whatever I or other agencies bring in as fact. So I think it takes some nuance and that we often, frankly, in public discourse don’t catch nuance. Interesting. We don’t do nuance well.

Rovner: We don’t do nuance.

Sebelius: Well, I would agree with the description of the facts versus the policy. And policy does often have political flavors. I was fortunate to work for a president who said, meant, and said it over and over and over again that he would follow the science. And he did. And I had interesting political debates with people around him, on his team, about what should be done, “rewrite the guidance on this,” “do that,” “this is going to upset this group of people.” And he was very resilient and very consistent, saying, “What does the science say? What do the scientists say? That’s where we’re going,” on those areas which were really defined as giving advice to the American public on health issues, doing a variety of things. I mean, he was totally focused on listening to the science. The politics came in, as I think Secretary Azar said well, in some decisions that were brought to him, which really involved often battles between Cabinet agencies, and both were very legitimate. Again, we had pretty ferocious battles on food labeling and calorie counts and how much sodium would, should manufacturers be allowed to put in all of our manufactured goods. I’m sure many of you are aware, but, you know, American sodium levels are just skyrocketing. And it doesn’t matter what kind of salt you use at your table; it’s already baked into every loaf of bread, every pat of butter, every can of soup. And a lot of European countries have done a great job just lowering that. So the goods that are manufactured that you pick up in an EU country — Kellogg’s Corn Flakes has a third of the sodium that the Kellogg’s Corn Flakes that you get in Aspen does, just because that was a choice that those governments made. That’s a way to keep people healthy. But we would come at that through a public health perspective and argue strenuously for various kinds of limits. The Department of Agriculture, promoting farm products, supporting goods it exports, you know, not wanting to rile people up, would come in very strongly opposing a lot of those public health measures. And the president would make that call. Now, is that politics? Is it policy? Is it, you know, listening to a different lens? But he made the call and some of those battles we would win and some we would lose. But again, it’s a very legitimate role for the president to make. He’s getting input from leaders who see things through a different lens, and then he’s the ultimate decider and he would make the decision.

Becerra: So um, I’ve done politics and policy much longer than I’ve done the secretary role. And I will tell you that there is a big difference. We do do some policy, but for the most part we execute. The policy has been given to us by Congress, and to some degree the White House will help shape that policy. We have some role in policymaking because we put out guidances, and the guidance may look like it’s political or policy-driven, or we decide how much sodium might be allowed in a particular product and so forth. But for the most part, we’re executing on a policy that’s been dictated to the agencies by Congress. And I love that, because when I became AG in California, it really hit you how important it is to be able to marshal facts. And in HHS, it’s not just facts; it’s scientific facts. It is such a treat, as an attorney, to get to rely on scientific facts to push things like masking policy in the face of some hostility that went throughout the country to the point that our CDC director had to have security detail because she was getting death threats for having policies that would urge society to have masking policies for adults, for children. We do rely principally on science and the facts at HHS. Maybe folks don’t believe it, but I can put those on the table for you to take a look at. And perhaps the best example I can give you, and I don’t know if I’ll have time to connect the dots for you, because it’s a little esoteric: Title 42, which many of you got to hear about all the time in the news. Title 42 was a policy that was put in place under the Trump administration when we were in the height of the covid pandemic. We didn’t know what was causing covid, so we were trying to make sure that we protected ourselves and our borders. And so therefore, for public health reasons, we sort of closed our borders to the degree that we could, except for those who proved that they had gone through steps and so forth to be able to come in. Title 42 was used under the Trump administration, under the Biden administration to stop people from coming through our southern border. And there reached a point where, as things got better, our team said Title 42, which is health-based — it’s to stop the spread of contagion — was no longer the appropriate tool to use at the border, because we were letting people in the northern border, by plane, and all the rest. You just had to go through protocols. And so they were saying for health care reasons you go through protocols. But Title 42 is probably not the blanket way to deal with this issue, because it’s no longer simply a health care issue. We pushed really hard on that within the administration to the point where, finally, the administration said, “We’re pulling down Title 42.” Then the politics and the policy came in, from Congress saying, “Oh, how dare you take down Title 42? How dare you do that and let the flood of people come into this country?” Well, look, if you want to deal with people coming into the country, whatever way, then deal with our country’s borders through our immigration laws, not through our health care laws. Don’t try to make health care experts be the reason why you’re stopping someone from coming into this country. Stop hiding behind their skirt. And that’s where we went. And the administration took that policy as well. They took the policy. We then got sued and a court said, “No, you will not take down Title 42.” Ultimately, we think we were going to prevail in court, but ultimately, because we pulled down the public health emergency, things got better under covid, we no longer needed Title 42. But just again, to be clear, the women and men at HHS, we execute; we use the facts and the science. We don’t do politics.

Rovner: So we’ve been very serious.

Becerra: Not everybody believed me on that one.

Rovner: I know, I know. We’ve been very serious here for 50-some minutes. I want to go down the line. What’s the most fun thing you got to do as secretary or the coolest thing that you got to do as secretary?

Azar: Probably for me, it was the trip to the Congo, you know, being in the DRC, going to Uganda, going to Rwanda, flying on MONUSCO [United Nations Organization Stabilization Mission in the Democratic Republic of the Congo] U.N. peacekeeping forces; there was a Russian gunboat taking Tedros and Fauci and Redfield and me there into this war zone. I mean, it’s a once-in-a-lifetime — it’s sort of crazy — but once-in-a-lifetime thing that had impact.

Rovner: I don’t know that most people would call that fun.

Azar: I mean, it’ll be one of those great memories for life. Yeah. Yeah.

Sebelius: There were certainly some great trips and memorable experiences around health results in various parts of the world. Some martinis on the presidential balcony and looking at the Washington Monument — that’s pretty cool at night. But my, I think, personally kind of fun thing. I raised my children on “Sesame Street,” and they loved “Sesame Street” and the characters, and that was sort of part of the family routine. And so I got to go to “Sesame Street” and make a public service commercial with Elmo. I got to see Oscar’s garbage can. I met Snuffleupagus. But the Elmo commercial was to teach kids how to sneeze because, again, we were trying to spread good health habits. And so the script said — I mean, Elmo is right here and I’m here — and the script said, “OK, Elmo, we need to practice how to sneeze. So put your arm up and bend your elbow and sneeze into your arm.” And the puppet answered, “Elmo has no elbow.” That wasn’t part of the script. It was like, really? “And if Elmo does that, it will go like this: Achoo!” OK, so we flipped the script and Elmo taught me to sneeze. But that was a very memorable day to finally be on “Sesame Street.” It was very cool.

Rovner: OK, beat that.

Becerra: My team has not yet scheduled me to go on “Sesame Street,” so it’s going to be tough.

Sebelius: But just remember, Elmo has no elbows, if you get to go.

Becerra: I think probably what I will think of most is that I had had a chance to be in the White House and meet with the president in the Oval Office and the rest as a of member of Congress and so forth. When I went in, and it was because things were kind of dire with the kids at the border, and I knew I was going to get a whiplash after the meeting — it wasn’t fun at the time, but walking out, you know, it’s the kind of thing you think of, you know, “West Wing” kind of thing. You actually got the — president sat at the table, I was the guy that sat across from him. Everybody else was to the sides. You know, for a kid who was the first in his family to go to college, Dad didn’t get past the sixth grade, Mom didn’t come here till she was 18, when she came from Guadalajara, Jalisco, Mexico. It was pretty cool.

Rovner: So I could go on all night, but I think we’re not supposed to. So I want to ask you all one last question, which is, regardless of party affiliation, what is one piece of advice you would give to a successor as HHS secretary? Why don’t you start?

Becerra: Gosh, don’t start with me because I’m still there, so —

Rovner: All right.

Azar: I’m going to plagiarize and I’m going to give you the advice I wish Donna Shalala had given me before I took the job. But I would give it to any successor, which: She told me, “Do not take the job unless you have authority over personnel. Refuse to take the job unless you have control over who’s working, because people is policy and you have to be able to control the ethics, the tone, the culture of the organization. And people are that, and you need to have that authority.” And ever really since the Reagan administration, the Office of Presidential Personnel has just been this vortex of power that controls all political appointees at Cabinet departments. And I think if the president really wants you, you need to strike a deal that says, at a minimum, I’ve got veto or firing rights.

Sebelius: I think my advice would be the advice you give to a lot of employees who work in the private sector or public sector is, Make sure you’re aligned with the mission of the CEO, so in this case the president. I mean, don’t take the job because it’s cool and you’ll be a Cabinet member, because then it will be miserable. And with HHS, recognize the incredible assets across this agency. It is the most dazzling workforce I’ve ever had an opportunity to be with — the brightest people of all shapes, sizes, backgrounds, who taught me so much every day — and just cherish and relish your opportunity to be there, even for a short period of time. It’s miraculous.

Becerra: So I’d agree with Alex: Assemble your team. And it really is, because Kathleen mentioned it, it’s a very small group that actually you get to bring in, or even the administration gets to bring in, because most of the folks are civil service, so it’s only a fraction of the people that are going to be new. But your inner circle, the team that’s going to sort of be there and guide you and tell you what’s truth, they’ve got to be your team, because someone’s got to have your back. But I’d also say, know your reach, because as Kathleen said, this is not the Azar administration or the Sebelius administration, the Becerra administration. It’s the administration of the guy who got elected. And at the end of the day, the president gets to make the call. So as much as you may want to do something, you’ve got to know your reach.

Rovner: Well, I want to thank you all. I hope the audience had half as much fun as I did doing this. Let’s do it again next year. Thank you, all. OK, that’s our show for this week. As always, if you enjoy the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left a review; that helps other people find us, too. Special thanks, as always, and particularly this week, to our producer, Francis Ying. Also as always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org. Or you can tweet me. I’m @jrovner. We’ll be back in your feed from Washington next week. Until then, be healthy.

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Julie Rovner is chief Washington correspondent and host of KFF Health News’ weekly health policy news podcast, “What the Health?” A noted expert on health policy issues, Julie is the author of the critically praised reference book “Health Care Politics and Policy A to Z,” now in its third edition.

How should journalists cover political candidates who make false claims about the safety and effectiveness of vaccines? That question will need to be answered now that noted anti-vaccine activist Robert F. Kennedy Jr. has officially entered the 2024 presidential race.

Meanwhile, South Carolina has become one of the last states in the South to pass an abortion ban, making the procedure all but impossible to obtain for women across a broad swath of the country.

This week’s panelists are Julie Rovner of KFF Health News, Alice Miranda Ollstein of Politico, Rachel Cohrs of Stat, and Sarah Karlin-Smith of the Pink Sheet.

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Rachel Cohrs
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Sarah Karlin-Smith
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Alice Miranda Ollstein
Politico

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Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:

• Republican lawmakers and President Joe Biden continue to bargain over a deal to avert a debt ceiling collapse. Unspent pandemic funding is on the negotiating table, as the White House pushes to protect money for vaccine development — though the administration has drawn criticism for a lack of transparency over what would be included in a clawback of unspent dollars.
• In abortion news, South Carolina is the latest state to vote to restrict access to abortion, passing legislation this week that would ban abortion after six weeks of pregnancy — shortly after pregnant people miss their first period. And Texas is seeing more legal challenges to the state law’s exceptions to protect a mother’s life, as cases increasingly show that many doctors are erring on the side of not providing care to avoid criminal and professional liability.
• Congress is scrutinizing the role of group purchasing organizations in drug pricing as more is revealed about how pharmacy benefit managers negotiate discounts. So-called GPOs offer health care organizations, like hospitals, the ability to work together to leverage market power and negotiate better deals from suppliers.
• Lawmakers are also exploring changes to the way Medicare pays for the same care performed in a doctor’s office versus a hospital setting. Currently, providers can charge more in a hospital setting, but some members of Congress want to end that discrepancy — and potentially save the government billions.
• And our panel of health journalists discusses an important question after a prominent anti-vaccine activist entered the presidential race last month: How do you responsibly cover a candidate who promotes conspiracy theories? The answer may be found in a “truth sandwich.”

Also this week, Rovner interviews KFF Health News senior correspondent Aneri Pattani about her project to track the money from the national opioid settlement.

Plus, for “extra credit,” the panelists suggest health policy stories they read this week that they think you should read, too:

Julie Rovner: KFF Health News’ “Remote Work: An Underestimated Benefit for Family Caregivers,” by Joanne Kenen

Alice Miranda Ollstein: Reuters’ “How Doctors Buy Their Way out of Trouble,” by Michael Berens

Rachel Cohrs: ProPublica’s “In the ‘Wild West’ of Outpatient Vascular Care, Doctors Can Reap Huge Payments as Patients Risk Life and Limb,” by Annie Waldman

Sarah Karlin-Smith: The New York Times’ “Heat Wave and Blackout Would Send Half of Phoenix to E.R., Study Says,” by Michael Levenson

Also mentioned in this week’s episode:

• KFF Health News’ “Abortion Bans Are Driving Off Doctors and Closing Clinics, Putting Basic Health Care at Risk,” by Julie Rovner.
• Stat’s “House Panel Takes First Steps Toward Reining In Hospitals With ‘Site-Neutral’ Changes,” by Rachel Cohrs.
• Vice’s “ABC News and CNN Manage to Demonstrate Exactly What Not to Do With Robert F. Kennedy Jr.,” by Anna Merlan.

click to open the transcript

Transcript: When an Anti-Vaccine Activist Runs for President

KFF Health News’ ‘What the Health?’

Episode Title: When an Anti-Vaccine Activist Runs for President

Episode Number: 299

Published: May 25, 2023

[Editor’s note: This transcript, generated using transcription software, has been edited for style and clarity.]

Julie Rovner: Hello and welcome back to “What the Health?”. I’m Julie Rovner, chief Washington correspondent at KFF Health News. And I’m joined by some of the best and smartest health reporters in Washington. We’re taping this week on Thursday, May 25, at 10 a.m. As always, news happens fast and things might have changed by the time you hear this. So here we go. Today we are joined via video conference by Rachel Cohrs of Stat News.

Rachel Cohrs: Hi, everybody.

Rovner: Sarah Karlin-Smith of the Pink Sheet.

Sarah Karlin-Smith: Hi, Julie.

Rovner: And Alice Miranda Ollstein of Politico.

Alice Miranda Ollstein: Hello.

Rovner: Later in this episode we’ll have my interview with KFF Health News’ Aneri Pattani about her project tracking where all of that opioid settlement money is going. But first, this week’s news. I suppose we have to start with the debt ceiling again, because how this all eventually plays out will likely impact everything else that happens in Washington for the rest of the year. First of all, as of this taping, at 10 o’clock on Thursday morning, there’s still no settlement here, right?

Ollstein: There is not. And depending who you listen to, we are either close or not close at all, on the brink of disaster or on the brink of being all saved from disaster. There’s a lot of competing narratives going around. But yes, as of this taping, no solution.

Rovner: I want to do a spreadsheet of how often the principals come out and say, “It was productive,” “It’s falling apart,” “It was productive,” “It’s falling apart.” I mean, it seems like literally every other time, particularly when Speaker [Kevin] McCarthy comes out, it was either “very productive” or “we’re nowhere near.” That seems to have been the gist for the past two weeks or so. Meanwhile, it seems like one thing Republicans and Democrats have at least tentatively agreed to do is claw back something like $30 billion in unspent covid funds. But, not so fast. The New York Times reports that the Biden administration wants to preserve $5 billion of that to fund the next generation of covid vaccines and treatment and another $1 billion to continue giving free covid vaccines to people without insurance. I feel like this is the perfect microcosm of why these talks are almost impossible to finish. They’re trying to negotiate a budget resolution, an omnibus spending bill, and a reconciliation bill all at the same time, with the sword of Damocles hanging over their head and a long holiday weekend in between. Somebody please tell me that I’m wrong about this.

Ollstein: Well, Congress never does anything unless there’s a sword of Damocles hanging over them and a vacation coming up that they really want to go on. I mean, do they ever make it happen otherwise? Not — not in our experience. But I do want to note that it is interesting that the Biden administration is trying to fight for some of that covid funding. Meanwhile, what they’re not reportedly fighting for is some of the other public health funding that’s at risk in that clawback, and I reported last week that some of Biden’s own health officials are warning that losing those tens of billions of dollars could undermine other public health efforts, including the fight against HIV and STDs [sexually transmitted diseases]. We have syphilis at record rates right now, and public health departments all around the country are counting on that money to preserve their workforces and do contact tracing, etc. And so that is another piece of this that isn’t getting as much attention.

Cohrs: There has been this ongoing fight between the White House and Republicans over covid money and how it’s being spent, for years at this point. And the White House has never really been fully transparent about exactly what was going to get clawed back. The Appropriations Committee was the one who actually put out some real information about this. And I think that trust has just been broken that the money is used where it’s supposed to be. I mean, even for the next-generation research project [Project NextGen] — I mean, they launched that like a couple of months ago, after Republicans had already threatened to take the money back. So I think there are some questions about the timing of the funding. [White House COVID-19 Response Coordinator] Ashish Jha said they didn’t know they had leftovers until recently, but I think this has just really turned into a mess for the White House, and I think the fact that they’re willing to offer some of this money up is just kind of a symbol and just a “ending with a whimper” of this whole fight that’s been going on for two years where they’ve been unsuccessful in extracting any more money.

Rovner: And yeah, I was just going to say, the White House keeps asking for more money and then they keep, quote-unquote, “finding money” to do things that are really important. Sarah, I wanted to ask you, how freaked out is the research establishment and the drug industry at whether, you know, will they or won’t they actually pony up money here?

Karlin-Smith: I think this could be pretty problematic because some of the type of companies that get this funding — some of them might be in a position to do this on their own, but others would essentially — you know, there isn’t necessarily a market for this without the government support, and that’s why they do it. That’s why the U.S. created this BARDA [Biomedical Advanced Research and Development Authority], which kind of funds this type of pandemic and other threats research. And so I think there are companies that definitely wouldn’t be able to continue without this money, because some of it is for things that we think we might need but don’t know if we definitely will. And so you don’t necessarily want to make the investment in the same way you know you need cancer drugs or something like that.

Rovner: We will see how this plays out. Perhaps it will be played out by next week or perhaps they will find some sort of short-term patch, which is another tried-and-true favorite for Congress. All right. Let’s turn to abortion. Last week, the North Carolina Legislature overrode the Democratic governor’s veto to pass a 12-week ban. This week was the South Carolina Legislature’s chance to say, “Hold my beer.” Alice, what happened in South Carolina, and what does it mean for availability of abortion in the whole rest of the South?

Ollstein: The governor is expected to sign this new restriction into law. Like many other GOP-led states. South Carolina was expected to quickly pass restrictions last year as soon as Roe v. Wade was overturned, but they got into fights within the Republican Party over how far to go, whether to have exceptions, what kind of exceptions, etc. It was the classic story we’ve seen play out over and over and over where, while Roe v. Wade was still in place, it was very easy for people to say, “I’m pro-life, I’m against abortion,” and not have to make those difficult, detailed decisions. So, yes, this could have a big impact, you know, especially with Florida moving for a much stricter ban. You know, the whole region is becoming more and more unavailable, and people are going to have to travel further and further.

Rovner: And South Carolina ended up with one of these six-week, quote-unquote, “heartbeat bills,” right?

Ollstein: That’s right.

Rovner: So it’s sort of shutting off yet another state where abortion is or really could be available. There’s more abortion-related court action, too. This week, in Texas, eight more women who experienced dangerous pregnancy complications joined a lawsuit seeking to force just a clarification of that state’s abortion ban that they say threatened their lives. One of them, Kiersten Hogan, had her water break prematurely, putting her at risk of infection and death, but says she was told by the hospital that if she tried to leave to seek care elsewhere, she could be arrested for trying to kill her baby. Four days later, the baby was born stillborn. Yet sponsors of the state’s abortion bill say it was never intended to bar, quote, “medically necessary abortions.” Why is there such a disconnect? And Texas is hardly the only place this is happening, right?

Ollstein: Yeah. Situations like this are why people are arguing that the whole debate over exceptions is sort of a fig leaf. It’s papering over how these work in practice. You can have exceptions on the book that say “life-threatening situations, medical emergencies,” etc. But because doctors are so afraid of being charged with a crime or losing their license or other professional repercussions, that’s just creating a huge chilling effect and making them afraid to provide care in these situations. A lot of times the state law also contradicts with federal law when it comes to medical emergencies, and so doctors feel caught in the middle and unsure what they’re supposed to do. And as we’re seeing, a lot of them are erring on the side of not providing care rather than providing care. So this is playing out in a lot of places. So I’m interested to see if this informs the debate in other states about whether to have these exceptions or not.

Rovner: And I get to promote my own story here, which is that we’re seeing in a lot of states either doctors leaving or doctors deciding not to train in states with abortion bans because they’re afraid of exactly those restrictions that could land them, you know, either in court or, even worse, in jail. We’ve long had abortion care deserts. Now we could see entire women’s health care deserts in a lot of these states, which would, you know, hurt not just the people who want to have abortions, but the people who want to get pregnant and have babies. We will continue to watch that space. Well, meanwhile, in West Virginia, another court case, filed by the maker of the generic version of the abortion pill mifepristone, could turn on a recent Supreme Court decision about pork products in California. Can somebody explain what one has to do with the other?

Karlin-Smith: There is basically a ruling that the Supreme Court issued the other week in a California case where the state was regulating how pigs were treated on farms in California. And the court basically allowed the law to stand, saying, you know, it didn’t interfere with interstate commerce. And the people who are protesting GenBioPro’s suit in West Virginia are basically saying that this, again, is an example where West Virginia’s regulation of the abortion drug, again, doesn’t really impact the distribution of the drug outside of the state or the availability of the drug outside of the state, and so this should be allowable. Of course, GenBioPro and the folks who are protesting how West Virginia is curtailing access to the suit are trying to argue the same ruling helps their cause. To me, what I read — and it seems like the comparison works better against the drug company, but it always is interesting to see this overlapping — you know, the cases you don’t expect. But I also, I think, when this ruling came out, saw somebody else making another argument that this should help GenBioPro. So it’s very hard to know.

Rovner: If it’s not confusing enough, I’m going to add another layer here: While we’re talking about the abortion pill, a group of House Democrats are reaching out to drug distribution company AmerisourceBergen, following reports that it would decline to deliver the pill to pharmacies in as many as 31 states, apparently fearing that they would be drawn into litigation between states and the federal government, the litigation we’ve talked about now a lot. So far, the company has only said that it will distribute the drug in states, quote, “where it is consistent with the law.” In the end, this could end up being more important than who wins these lawsuits, right? If — I think they’re the sole distributor — is not going to distribute it, then it’s not going to be available.

Ollstein: It also depends on the — at the 5th Circuit, and that will go back to the Supreme Court, because if it’s not an FDA-approved drug, then nobody can distribute it. That’s the ultimate controlling factor. But yes, since they are the sole distributor, they will have a lot of power over where this goes. And when I was reporting on Walgreens’ decision, they were pointing to this and saying that their decisions, you know, depend on other factors as well.

Karlin-Smith: And there’s a lot of nuance to this because my understanding is AmerisourceBergen, they’re particularly talking about distributing it to pharmacies where you could — under this new FDA permission to let pharmacies distribute the drug, which in the past they hadn’t.

Rovner: And which hasn’t happened yet.

Karlin-Smith: Right. They haven’t actually gone through the process of certifying the pharmacies. So it’s like a little bit premature, which is why I think Walgreens realized they probably jumped the gun on making any decision because it couldn’t happen yet anyway. But AmerisourceBergen is still saying, “Oh, we’re giving it to providers and other places that can distribute the drug in some of these states.” So it’s not necessarily like the drug is completely unavailable. It’s just about ease of access, I think, at this point.

Rovner: Yeah, we’re not just in “watch that space”; now we’ve progressed to “watch all those spaces,” which we will continue to do. Well, while we were on the discussion of drug middlepeople, there’s a story in Stat about the Federal Trade Commission widening its investigation of pharmacy benefit managers to include group purchasing organizations. Sarah, what are group purchasing organizations and how do they impact the price of prescription drugs?

Karlin-Smith: So group purchasing organizations are basically where you sort of pool your purchasing power to try and get better deals or discounts. So like, in this case, one of the GPOs FTC is looking at negotiates drug rebates on behalf of a number of different PBMs, not just one PBM. And so, again, you know, the idea is the more people you have, the more marketing you have, the better discount you should be able to get, which is — I think some people have been a little shocked by this because they’re like, “Wait, we thought the PBMs were the ones that did the negotiation. Why are they outsourcing this? Isn’t that the whole purpose of why they exist?” Yeah, so FTC has sort of a broader investigation into PBMs, so this is kind of the next step in it to kind of figure out, OK, what is the role of these companies? How are they potentially creating bad incentives, contributing to increased drug pricing, making it harder for people to perhaps, like, get their drug at particular pharmacies or more expensive at particular pharmacies? Again, because there’s been a lot of integration of ownership of these companies. So like the PBMs, the health insurance, some of these pharmacy systems are sort of all connected, and there’s a lot of concern that that’s led to incentives that are harming consumers and the prices we’re paying for our health care.

Rovner: Yeah, there’s all that money sloshing around that doesn’t seem to be getting either to the drug companies or to the consumers. Rachel, you wanted to add something?

Cohrs: Sure. I think GPOs are more used with hospitals when they buy drugs, because I think PBMs — you think of, like, going to pick up your drug at the pharmacy counter. But obviously hospitals are buying so many drugs, too. And their, you know, market power is pretty dispersed across the country. And so they also are a big customer of GPOs. So I think they’re also trying to get at this, like, different part of the drug market where, you know, a lot of these really expensive medications are administered in hospitals. So it will be interesting. They’re certainly not very transparent either. So, yeah, interesting development as to how they relate to PBMs, but also the rest of — you know, encompassing a larger part of the health care system.

Karlin-Smith: Yeah, I have seen complaints from hospital systems that the GPOs require them to enter into contracts that make it very difficult for the hospital to pivot if, say, the GPO can’t supply them with a particular product or maybe it’s … [unintelligible] … and then they end up stuck in a situation where they should, in theory, be able to get a product from another supplier and they can’t. So there’s lots of different levels of, again, concern about potential bad behavior.

Rovner: Well, while we are on the topic of nerdy practice-of-medicine stuff, Rachel, you had a story on the latest on the, quote, “site-neutral” Medicare payment policy. Remind us what that is and who’s on which side, and wasn’t that one of the bills — or I guess that wasn’t one of the bills that was approved by the House Energy and Commerce Committee yesterday, right?

Cohrs: No, so “site neutral” is basically hospitals’ worst nightmare. It essentially makes sure that Medicare is paying the same amount for a service that a doctor provides, whether it’s on a hospital campus or provided in a doctor’s office. And I think hospitals argue that they need to charge more because they have to be open 24/7. You know, they don’t have predictable hours. They have to serve anyone, you know, regardless of willingness to pay. It costs more overhead. That kind of thing. But I think lawmakers are kind of losing patience with that argument to some degree, that the government should be paying more for the same service at one location versus another. And it’s true that House Republicans had really wanted an aggressive form of this policy, and it could save like tens of billions of dollars. I mean, this is a really big offset we’re talking about here, if they go really aggressively toward this path, but instead they weren’t able to get Democrats on board with that plan yet. I think the chair, Cathy McMorris Rodgers, and the ranking member, Frank Pallone, have said they want to keep working on this. But what they did do this week is took a tiny little part out of that and advanced it through the committee. And it would equalize payment for, like, drug administration in physician’s offices versus a physician doing it in the hospital, and the savings to the federal government on that policy was roughly $3 billion. So, again, not a huge hit to industry, but it’s, you know, significant savings, certainly, and a first step in this direction as they think about how they want to do this, if they want to go bigger.

Rovner: So while we’re talking about the Energy and Commerce Committee, those members, in a fairly bipartisan fashion, are moving a bunch of other bills aimed at price transparency, value-based care, and a lot of other popular health buzzwords. Sarah, I know you watched, if not all, then most of yesterday’s markup. Anything in particular that we should be watching as it perhaps moves through the House and maybe the Senate?

Karlin-Smith: Yeah. So there was — probably the most contentious health bill that cleared yesterday was a provision that basically would codify a Trump-era rule in Medicaid that the Biden administration has sort of tweaked a bit but generally supported that basically tweaks Medicaid’s “best price” rule. So Medicaid is kind of guaranteed the best price that the private sector gets for drugs. But drugmakers have argued this prevents them from doing these unique value-based arrangements where we say, “OK, if the patient doesn’t perform well or the drug doesn’t work well for the patient, we’ll kind of give you maybe even all your money back.” Well, they don’t want the Medicaid best price to be zero. So they came up with a kind of a very confusing way to tweak that and also as part of that to, you know, hopefully allow Medicaid to maybe even take advantage of these programs. And Rep. [Brett] Guthrie [(R-Ky.)], Rep. [Anna] Eshoo [(D-Calif.)] on the Democratic side, want to codify that. But a number of the Democrats pushed back and over worries this might actually raise prices Medicaid pays for drugs and be a bit more problematic. And the argument from the Democrats, the majority of Democrats on the committee who oppose it, were not completely against this idea but let it play out in rulemaking, because if it stays in rulemaking, it’s a lot easier to —er, sorry — as a rule, it’s already made.

Rovner: To fix it if they need to.

Karlin-Smith: Right. It’s a lot easier to fix it, which, as anybody who follows health policy knows, it’s not actually as easy as you would think to fix a rule, but it’s definitely a lot easier to fix a rule than it is to fix something codified in law. So that’s sort of a very wonky but meaningful thing, I think, to how much drugs cost in Medicaid.

Rovner: Last nerdy thing, I promise, for this week: The Biden administration says it plans to conduct an annual audit of the cost of the most expensive drugs covered by Medicaid and make those prices public in what one of your colleagues, Alice, described as a “name and shame” operation? I mean, could this actually work, or could it end up like other HHS [Department of Health and Human Services] transparency rules, either not very followed or tied up in court?

Karlin-Smith: Experts that my colleague Cathy Kelly talked to to write about this basically were not particularly optimistic it would lead to big changes in savings to Medicaid, basically. One of the reasons is because Medicaid actually gets pretty good deals on drugs to begin with. But that said, even, again, like I said, they’re guaranteed these really large rebates are the best price. But in exchange for that, they have to cover all drugs. So that’s where you start to lose some of your leverage. So the hope with some of this extra transparency is they’ll get more information to have, like, a little bit of additional leverage to say, “Oh, well your manufacturing costs are only this, so you should be able to give us an additional rebate,” which they can negotiate that. Again, I think people think there’ll be sort of maybe some moderate, if any, benefits to that. But some states have actually tried similar things in kind of similar “name, shame” affordability boards. And the drugmakers have basically just said, “No, we’re not going to give you any more discounts.” And they’re kind of stuck.

Rovner: “And we’re not ashamed of the price that we’re charging.”

Karlin-Smith: Right.

Rovner: “Or we wouldn’t be charging it.”

Karlin-Smith: So it’s a tough one, but there’s, like, an argument to be made that drugmakers just don’t want to be on this list. So maybe some of them will more proactively figure out like how to get their price point and everything discounts to a point where they at least won’t get on the list. So maybe, again, it might tweak things around the edges, but it’s not a big price savings move.

Rovner: And we shall see. All right. Well, this is — finally this week, it’s something I’ve wanted to talk about for a couple of weeks. I’m calling it the “How do you solve a problem like RFK Jr.?” For those of you who don’t already know, the son of the former senator and liberal icon Robert Kennedy has declared his candidacy for president. He’s an environmental lawyer, but at the same time, he’s one of the most noted anti-vaxxers, not just in the country but in the world. Vice has a provocative story — this actually goes back a couple of weeks — about how the media should cover this candidacy or, more specifically, how it shouldn’t. According to the story, ABC did an interview with RFK Jr. and then simply cut out what they deemed the false vaccine claims that he made. CNN, on the other hand, did an interview and simply didn’t mention his anti-vaccine activism. I am honestly torn here about how should you cover someone running for president who traffics in conspiracy theories that you know are not true? I realize here I am now speaking of a wider — wider universe than just RFK Jr. But as a journalist, I mean, how do you handle things that — when they get repeated and you know them to be untrue, at least in the health care realm?

Karlin-Smith: I mean, I really like the thing that Vice mentioned, and I think maybe Jay Rosen, who’s a journalism professor at NYU [New York University], he might be the person that sort of coined this, I’m not sure — this, like, “truth sandwich” idea, where you make sure you sort of start with what is true, in the middle you put the sort of — this is what the false claim of X person — and then you go back to the truth. Because I think that really helps people grasp onto what’s true, versus a lot of times you see the coverage starts with the lie or the falsehood. And I think sometimes people might even just see that headline or just see the little bit of what’s correct and never make it to the truth. And I understand some of the decisions by the news outlets that decided not to air these segments and just didn’t want to deal with the topic. But then I guess I thought they did make a good point that then you let somebody like Kennedy say, “Oh, they’re suppressing me, they’re deliberately hiding this information.” So the Vice argument was that this truth sandwich idea kind of gets you in a better … [unintelligible]. And again, as journalists, our job is not to suppress what politicians are saying. People should know what these people claim, because that is what the positions they stand for. But it’s figuring out how to add the context and be able to, you know, in real time if you need to, fact-check it.

Rovner: I confess, over the years I have been guilty of the CNN thing of just not bringing it up and hoping it doesn’t come up. But then, I mean, it’s true, the worst-case scenario — probably not going to happen with somebody running for president — but I think we’ve discovered all these people running for lower offices, that they get elected, you don’t talk about the controversial things and then you discover that you have a legislator in office who literally believes that the Earth is flat. There are — can Google that. So if these things aren’t aired, then there’s no way for voters to know. Anybody else have a personal or organizational rule for how to handle this sort of stuff?

Ollstein: I think there can be smart decisions about when to let someone say in their own voice what they believe versus saying as the news organization, “In the speech, he spent X minutes advancing the discredited assertion of blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,” and not just handing over the platform for them to share the misinformation.

Rovner: Yeah, I just want the audience to know that we do think seriously about this stuff. We are not just as sort of blithe as some may believe. All right. Well, that is this week’s news. Now, we will play my interview with Aneri Pattani, and then we will come back with our extra credits. I am pleased to welcome back to the podcast my colleague Aneri Pattani, who is here to talk about her investigation into where those billions of dollars states are getting in pharmaceutical industry settlements for the opioid crisis are actually going. Aneri, I am so glad to have you back.

Aneri Pattani: Thanks so much for having me.

Rovner: So let’s start at the beginning. How much money are we talking about? Where’s it coming from, and where is it supposed to be going?

Pattani: So the money comes from companies that made, distributed, or sold opioid painkillers. So these are places like Purdue Pharma, AmerisourceBergen, Walgreens, and a bunch of others. They were all accused of aggressively marketing the pills and falsely claiming that they weren’t addictive. So thousands of states and cities sued those companies. And rather than go through with all the lawsuits, most of the companies settled. And as a result, they’ve agreed to pay out more than $50 billion over the next 15 or so years. And the money is meant to be used on opioid remediation, which is a term that means basically anything that addresses or fixes the current addiction crisis and helps to prevent future ones.

Rovner: So the fact is that many or most states — we don’t actually know where this money is going or will go in the future because that information isn’t being made public. How is that even legal, or, I guess it’s not public funds, but it’s funds that are being obtained by public entities, i.e., the attorneys general.

Pattani: Yeah, a lot of people feel this way. But the thing is, the national settlement agreements have very few requirements for states to publicly report how they use the money. In fact, the only thing that’s in there that they’re required to report is when they use money for non-opioid purposes. And that can be at most 15% of the total funds they’re getting. And that reporting, too, is on an honor system. So if a state doesn’t report anything, then the settlement administrators are supposed to assume that the state used all of its money on things related to the opioid crisis. Now, states and localities can enact stricter requirements. For example, North Carolina and Colorado are two places that have created these public dashboards that are supposed to show where the money goes, how much each county gets, how the county spends it. But honestly, the vast majority of states are not taking steps like that.

Rovner: So for people of a certain age, this all feels kind of familiar. In the late 1990s, a group of state attorneys general banded together and sued the tobacco companies for the harm their products had done to the public. They eventually reached a settlement that sent more than $200 billion to states over 25 years, so that money is only just now running out. But it didn’t all get used for tobacco cessation or even public health, did it?

Pattani: No. In fact, most of it didn’t get used for that. The Campaign for Tobacco-Free Kids, which has been tracking that tobacco settlement money for years, found that about only 3% of the money goes to anti-smoking programs a year. The rest of it has gone towards plugging state budget gaps, infrastructure projects like paving roads, or, in the case of North Carolina and South Carolina, the money even went to subsidizing tobacco farmers.

Rovner: Great. Given the lessons of the tobacco settlement, how do the attorneys general in this case try to make sure that wasn’t going to happen? I mean, was it just by requiring that that non-opioid-related money be made public?

Pattani: So they have added some specific language to the settlements that they point to as trying to avoid, you know, the, quote, “tobacco nightmare.” Essentially, the opioid settlements say that at least 85% of the money must be spent on opioid remediation. Again, that term — that’s like things that stop and prevent addiction. And there’s also a list included at the end of the settlement, called Exhibit E, with potential expenses that fall under opioid remediation. That’s things like paying for addiction treatment for people who don’t have insurance or building recovery housing or funding prevention programs in schools. But the thing is, that list is pretty broad and it’s nonexhaustive, so governments can choose to do things that aren’t on that list, too. So there are guidelines, but there’s not a lot of hard enforcement to make sure that the money is spent on these uses.

Rovner: So, as you’ve pointed out in your reporting, it’s not always simple to determine what is an appropriate or an inappropriate use of these settlement funds, particularly in places that have been so hard-hit by the opioid crisis and that it affects the entire economy of that state or county or city. So tell us what you found in Greene County, Tennessee. That was a good example, right?

Pattani: Yeah, Greene County is an interesting place. And what I learned is happening there is actually, you know, repeating in a lot of places across the country. So Greene County, it’s an Appalachian county, it’s been hard-hit. It has a higher rate of overdose deaths than the state of Tennessee overall or even the country. But when the county got several million dollars in opioid settlement funds, it first put that money towards paying off the county’s debt. And that included putting some money into their capital projects fund, which was then used to buy a pickup truck for the sheriff’s office. So a lot of folks are looking at that, saying, “That’s not really opioid-related.” But county officials said to me, you know, this use of the money makes sense, because the opioid epidemic has hurt their economy for decades; it’s taken people out of the workforce, it’s led to increased costs for their sheriff’s office and their jail with people committing addiction-related crimes, it’s hurt the tax base when people move out of the county. So now they need that money to pay themselves back. Of course, on the other hand, you have advocates and people affected by the crisis saying, “If we’re using all the money now to pay back old debts, then who’s addressing the current crisis? People are still dying of overdoses, and we need to be putting the opioid settlement money towards the current problem.”

Rovner: So I suppose ideally they could be doing both.

Pattani: I think that’s the hard thing. Although $54 billion sounds like a lot of money, it’s coming over a long period of time. And so at the end of the day, it’s not enough to fund every single thing people want, and there is a need for prioritization.

Rovner: So I know part of your project is helping urge local reporters to look into where money is being used in their communities. How is that going?

Pattani: It’s going well. I think it’s important because the money is not only going to state governments, but to counties and cities too. So local reporters can play a really big role in tracking that money and holding local officials accountable for how they use it. So I’m trying to help by sharing some of the national data sets we’re pulling together that can be used by local reporters. And I’ve also hopped on the phone with local reporters to talk about where they can go to talk to folks about this or finding story ideas. Some of the reporters I’ve spoken with have already published stories. There was one just a week ago in the Worcester Telegram from a student journalist, actually, in that area —

Rovner: Cool.

Pattani: — so there’s a lot of good coverage coming.

Rovner: I’m curious: What got you interested in pursuing this topic? I know you cover addiction, but this is the kind of reporting that can get really frustrating.

Pattani: It definitely can. But I think it’s what you said: As someone who’s been covering addiction and mental health issues for a while, kind of focusing on some of the problems and the systemic gaps, when I learned that this money was coming in, it was exciting to me too, like, maybe this money will be used to address the issues that I’m often reporting on, and so I want to follow that and I want to see if it delivers on that promise.

Rovner: So what else is coming up in this project? I assume it’s going to continue for a while.

Pattani: Yes. So this will be a yearlong project, maybe even more, because, as I said, the funds are coming for a long time. But essentially the next few things I’m looking at, I have a big data project looking at who sits on opioid settlement councils. These are groups that advise or direct the money in different states and, you know, may represent different interests. And then we’re going to be looking at some common themes in the ways different states are using this money. So a lot of them are putting it towards law enforcement agencies, a lot of them are putting them toward in-school prevention programs, and taking a look at what the research tells us about how effective these strategies are or aren’t.

Rovner: Well, Aneri Pattani, thank you so much, and we will post links to some of Aneri’s work on the podcast homepage at kffhealthnews.org and in this week’s show notes. Thanks again.

Pattani: Thank you so much.

Rovner: OK, we’re back and it’s time for our extra credit segment. That’s when we each recommend a story we read this week we think you should read too. As always, don’t worry if you miss it. We will post the links on the podcast page at kffhealthnews.org and in our show notes on your phone or other mobile device. Sarah, why don’t you go first this week?

Karlin-Smith: Sure. I looked at a piece in The New York Times called “Heat Wave and Blackout Would Send Half of Phoenix to E.R., Study Says,” by Michael Levenson. And it’s just really sort of a horrifying piece where researchers were sort of able to model the impact of the growing frequency of heat waves due to climate change, and obviously, the U.S. had some electric grid stability issues, and just the disconnect between the amount of hospital beds and people that would be able to care for people in a very hot city due to, you know, heat waves without being able to access air conditioning and other cooling methods. And the amount of people that would be hospitalized or die or just wouldn’t have a hospital bed. The one thing I did think was sort of positive is the piece does have some suggestions, and some of them are fairly simple that could really change the degrees in cities in relevant ways, like planting more trees in particular areas, and often this affects sort of — the poorest areas of cities tend to be the ones with less trees — or, you know, changing colors or the material on roofing. So as much as sometimes I think climate change becomes sort of such an overwhelming topic where you feel like you can’t solve it, I think the one nice thing here is it does sort of show, like, we have power to make the situation better.

Rovner: We can perhaps adapt. Alice.

Ollstein: I picked a upsetting piece but really good investigation from Reuters by Michael Berens. It’s called “How Doctors Buy Their Way out of Trouble.” It’s about doctors who are charged federally with all kinds of wrongdoing, including operating on patients who don’t need to be operated on for profit and having a pattern of doing so. And it’s about how often these cases settle with federal prosecutors and the settlement allows them to keep practicing, and the settlement money goes to the government, not to the victims. And often the victims aren’t even aware that the settlement took place at all. And new patients are not aware that the doctor they may be going to has been charged. And so it’s a really messed up system and I hope this shines a light on it.

Rovner: Rachel.

Cohrs: All right. So mine is from ProPublica, and the headline is, “In the ‘Wild West’ of Outpatient Vascular Care, Doctors Can Reap Huge Payments as Patients Risk Life and Limb,” by Annie Waldman. And I think I found this story timed really well kind of as lawmakers do start to talk a little bit more about incentives for patients to be seen in a hospital versus in more physician offices. And certainly there are cost reasons that that makes sense for some procedures. But I think this story does a really good job of kind of following one doctor, who I think, similar to kind of the story Alice was talking about, you know, was taking advantage of these inflated payments that were supposed to incentivize outpatient treatment to perform way more of these procedures than patients needed. And so I think it’s just important, a cautionary tale about the safeguards that could be necessary, you know, if more of this care is provided elsewhere.

Rovner: Yeah, I think these two stories are very good to be read together. My story this week is from our fellow podcast panelist Joanne Kenen for KFF Health News. It’s called “Remote Work: An Underestimated Benefit for Family Caregivers,” and it’s about how the U.S., still one of the few countries without any formal program for long-term care, that most of us will need at some point, has accidentally fallen into a way to make family caregiving just a little bit easier by letting caregivers do their regular jobs from home, either all the time or sometimes. While many, if not most, employers have policies around childbirth and child care, relatively few have benefits that make it easier for workers to care for other sick family members, even though a fifth of all U.S. workers are family caregivers. More flexible schedules can at least make that a little easier and possibly prevent workers from quitting so that they can provide care that’s needed. It’s no substitute for an actual national policy on long-term care, but it’s a start, even if an accidental one. OK, that is our show for this week. As always, if you enjoy the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left us a review; that helps other people find us, too. Special thanks, as always, to our ever-patient producer, Francis Ying. And next week is our 300th episode. If all goes as planned, we’ll have something special, so be sure to tune in. As always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org. Or you can tweet me. I’m still there. I’m @jrovner. Sarah?

Karlin-Smith: I’m @SarahKarlin.

Rovner: Alice.

Ollstein: @AliceOllstein.

Rovner: Rachel.

Cohrs: @rachelcohrs.

Rovner: We will be back in your feed next week. Until then, be healthy.

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Dr. Anthony Fauci acknowledged Friday that there is a "fatigue" about COVID-19 mandates as respiratory viruses surge across the U.S. 

In an interview with Fox 5 New York, the nation’s top infectious-disease expert said that while he believes future decisions about implementing restrictions should be left up to the discretion of local health authorities, he knows that people "don't like being told what to do." 

"I mean, obviously, you would like people to use good judgment to protect themselves and their family in that community without necessarily having to mandate anything, because, you know, there is a fatigue about being mandated. People don't like to be told what to do," he told "Good Day New York."

"But you really want to very strongly encourage people that when you're having a rather strong uptick in infections, which is followed by an uptick in hospitalizations, you want to make sure you do something to mitigate against that," Fauci noted.

NEW YORK CITY 'STRONGLY' URGES MASKS AMID 'HIGH LEVELS' OF COVID, FLU, RSV

The National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases director also told the station that he was concerned about what he called "not a very vigorous uptake" of the omicron-specific booster.

"We're doing much, much lower from a percentage point that we shouldn't be doing you know, in some respects, that may be understandable, because people want to be done with COVID," he said. "We've all been exhausted over the last three years. But there still is a lot to do to protect yourself and your family and, ultimately, your community."

Health officials in cities nationwide are encouraging residents to embrace mitigation measures – strongly recommending masking in New York and Los Angeles. 

Phoenix authorities are encouraging vaccinations as reports of illnesses in Maricopa County are on the rise, including influenza and the respiratory syncytial virus (RSV). 

LOS ANGELES COVID CASES SURGE, BUT COUNTY HOLDS OFF ON MASK MANDATE

"At this level of transmission, the CDC recommends wearing a mask indoors in public, which includes during travel and in other public settings. RSV cases are more than two times higher than during the average peak," the Maricopa County Department of Public Health said in a news release.

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said last week that the U.S. is seeing elevated levels of the viruses – especially for RSV and flu. 

"Levels of flu-like illness, which includes people going to the doctor with a fever and a cough or sore throat are at either high or very high levels in 47 jurisdictions, and that is up from 36 jurisdictions just last week. CDC estimates that since Oct. 1, there have already been at least 8.7 million illnesses, 78,000 hospitalizations and 4,500 deaths from flu," Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky said in a Monday telebriefing. "Flu hospital admissions reported through HHS’s hospital surveillance system, which were already high for this time of year, have nearly doubled during the last reporting period. Compared to the week prior, hospitalizations for flu continue to be the highest we have seen at this time of year in a decade, demonstrating the significantly earlier flu season we are experiencing."

She encouraged people to get vaccinated for COVID-19 and influenza and to take preventative actions, like wearing a high-quality, well-fitting mask to prevent the spread of illness.