His claims decrying vaccines have roiled scientists and medical experts and stoked anger over whether his work harms children. He has made suggestions about the cause of covid-19 that he acknowledges sound racist and antisemitic.

Bolstered by his famous name and family’s legacy, his campaign of conspiracy theories has gained an electoral and financial foothold. He is running as an independent — having abandoned his pursuit of the Democratic Party nomination — and raised more than $15 million. A political action committee pledged to spend between $10 million and $15 million to get his name on the ballot in 10 states.

Even though he spent the past two decades as a prominent leader of the anti-vaccine movement, Kennedy rejects a blanket “anti-vax” label that he told Fox News in July makes him “look crazy, like a conspiracy theorist.”

But Kennedy draws bogus conclusions from scientific work. He employs “circumstantial evidence” as if it is proof. In TV, podcast, and political appearances for his campaign in 2023, Kennedy steadfastly maintained:

• Vaccines cause autism.
• No childhood vaccines “have ever been tested in a safety study pre-licensing.”
• There is “tremendous circumstantial evidence” that psychiatric drugs cause mass shootings, and the National Institutes of Health refuses to research the link out of deference to pharmaceutical companies.
• Ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine were discredited as covid-19 treatments so covid vaccines could be granted emergency use authorization, a win for Big Pharma.
• Exposure to the pesticide atrazine contributes to gender dysphoria in children.
• Covid-19 is “targeted to attack Caucasians and Black people. The people who are most immune are Ashkenazi Jews and Chinese.”

For Kennedy, the conspiracies aren’t limited to public health. He claims “members of the CIA” were involved in the assassination of his uncle, John F. Kennedy. He doesn’t “believe that (Sirhan) Sirhan’s bullets ever hit my father,” former Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy. He insists the 2004 presidential election was stolen from Democratic candidate John Kerry.

News organizations, including PolitiFact, have documented why those claims, and many others, are false, speculative, or conspiracy-minded.

Kennedy has sat for numerous interviews and dismissed the critics, not with the grievance and bluster of former President Donald Trump, but with a calm demeanor. He amplifies the alleged plot and repeats dubious scientific evidence and historical detail.

Will his approach translate to votes? In polls since November of a three-way matchup between President Joe Biden, Trump, and Kennedy, Kennedy pulled 16% to 22% of respondents.

Kennedy’s movement exemplifies the resonance of conspiratorial views. Misinformers with organized efforts are rewarded with money and loyalty. But that doesn’t make the claims true.

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.’s campaign based on false theories is PolitiFact’s 2023 Lie of the Year.

How an Environmental Fighter Took Up Vaccines

Kennedy, the third of 11 children, was 9 when he was picked up on Nov. 22, 1963, from Sidwell Friends School in Washington, D.C., because Lee Harvey Oswald had shot and killed Uncle Jack. He was 14 when he learned that his father had been shot by Sirhan Sirhan following a victory speech after the California Democratic presidential primary.

RFK Jr., who turns 70 in January, wouldn’t begin to publicly doubt the government’s findings about the assassinations until later in his adulthood.

As a teenager, he used drugs. He was expelled from two boarding schools and arrested at 16 for marijuana possession. None of that slowed an elite path through higher education, including Harvard University for his bachelor’s degree and the University of Virginia for his law degree.

He was hired as an assistant district attorney in Manhattan in 1982 but failed the bar exam and resigned the next year. Two months later, he was arrested for heroin possession after falling ill on a flight. His guilty plea involved a drug treatment program, a year of probation, and volunteer work with a local anglers’ association that patrolled the Hudson River for evidence of pollution that could lead to lawsuits.

Kennedy’s involvement with Hudson Riverkeeper and the Natural Resources Defense Council ushered in a long chapter of environmental litigation and advocacy.

An outdoorsman and falconer, Kennedy sued companies and government agencies over pollution in the Hudson River and its watershed. (He joined the New York bar in 1985.) He earned a master’s degree in environmental law at Pace University, where he started a law clinic to primarily assist Riverkeeper’s legal work. He helped negotiate a 1997 agreement that protected upstate New York reservoirs supplying New York City’s drinking water.

In 1999, Kennedy founded the Waterkeeper Alliance, an international group of local river and bay-keeper organizations that act as their “community’s coast guard,” he told Vanity Fair in 2016. He stayed with the group until 2020, when he left “to devote himself, full-time, to other issues.”

On Joe Rogan’s podcast in June, Kennedy said that virtually all of his litigation involved “some scientific controversy. And so, I’m comfortable with reading science and I know how to read it critically.”

PolitiFact did not receive a response from Kennedy’s campaign for this story.

He became concerned about mercury pollution from coal-burning power plants; methylmercury can build up in fish, posing a risk to humans and wildlife. As he traveled around the country, he said, women started appearing in the front rows of his mercury lectures.

“They would say to me in kind of a respectful but vaguely scolding way, ‘If you’re really interested in mercury contamination exposure to children, you need to look at the vaccines,’” Kennedy told Rogan, whose show averages 11 million listeners an episode.

Kennedy said the women sounded “rational” as they explained a link between their children’s autism and vaccines. “They weren’t excitable,” he said. “And they had done their research, and I was like, ‘I should be listening to these people, even if they’re wrong.’”

He did more than listen. In June 2005, Rolling Stone and Salon co-published Kennedy’s article “Deadly Immunity.” Kennedy told an alarming story about a study that revealed a mercury-based additive once used in vaccines, thimerosal, “may have caused autism in thousands of kids.” Kennedy alleged that preeminent health agencies — the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the Food and Drug Administration, the World Health Organization — had colluded with vaccine manufacturers “to conceal the data.”

Kennedy’s premise was decried as inaccurate and missing context. He left out the ultimate conclusion of the 2003 study, by Thomas Verstraeten, which said “no consistent significant associations were found between [thimerosal-containing vaccines] and neurodevelopmental outcomes.”

Kennedy didn’t clearly state that, as a precaution, thimerosal was not being used in childhood vaccines when his article was published. He also misrepresented the comments of health agency leaders at a June 2000 meeting, pulling certain portions of a 286-page transcript that appeared to support Kennedy’s collusion narrative.

Scientists who have studied thimerosal have found no evidence that the additive, used to prevent germ growth, causes harm, according to a CDC FAQ about thimerosal. Unlike the mercury in some fish, the CDC says, thimerosal “doesn’t stay in the body, and is unlikely to make us sick.” Continued research has not established a link between thimerosal and autism.

By the end of July 2005, Kennedy’s Salon article had been appended with five correction notes. In 2011, Salon retracted the article. It disappeared from Rolling Stone.

Salon’s retraction was part of a broader conspiracy of caving “under pressure from the pharmaceutical industry,” Kennedy told Rogan. The then-Salon editor rejected this, saying they “caved to pressure from the incontrovertible truth and our journalistic consciences.”

Kennedy has not wavered in his belief: “Well, I do believe that autism does come from vaccines,” he told Fox News’ Jesse Watters in July.

David Remnick, editor of The New Yorker, interviewed Kennedy for a July story. Noting that Kennedy was focusing more on vaccine testing rather than outright opposition, Remnick asked him whether he was having second thoughts.

“I’ve read the science on autism and I can tell you, if you want to know,” Kennedy said. “David, you’ve got to answer this question: If it didn’t come from the vaccines, then where is it coming from?”

How Covid-19 Helped RFK Jr.’s Vaccine-Skeptical Crusade

In 2016, Kennedy launched the World Mercury Project to address mercury in fish, medicines, and vaccines. In 2018, he created Children’s Health Defense, a legal advocacy group that works “aggressively to eliminate harmful exposures,” its website says.

Since at least 2019, Children’s Health Defense has supported and filed lawsuits challenging vaccination requirements, mask mandates, and social media companies’ misinformation policies (including a related lawsuit against Facebook and The Poynter Institute, which owns PolitiFact).

From the beginning, the group has solicited stories about children “injured” by environmental toxins or vaccines. This year, it launched a national bus tour to collect testimonials. The organization also produces documentary-style films and books, including Kennedy’s “The Wuhan Cover-Up and the Terrifying Bioweapons Arms Race” and “The Real Anthony Fauci: Bill Gates, Big Pharma, and the Global War on Democracy and Public Health.”

In 2020, Children’s Health Defense and the anti-vaccine movement turned attention to the emerging public health crisis.

Kolina Koltai, a senior researcher at Bellingcat, an investigative journalism group, had seen anti-vaccine groups try to seize on Zika and Ebola outbreaks, with little success. But the covid-19 pandemic provided “the exact scenario” needed to create mass dissent: widespread fear and an information vacuum.

Children’s Health Defense published articles in March and April 2020 claiming the “viral terror” was an attempt to enact the “global immunization agenda” and a “dream come true” for dictators. The group echoed these points in ads and social media posts and grew its audience, including in Europe.

On X, then known as Twitter, Children’s Health Defense outperformed news outlets that met NewsGuard’s criteria for trustworthiness from the third quarter of 2020 to the fourth quarter of 2021, according to a report by the German Marshall Fund think tank, even as Children’s Health Defense published debunked information about covid-19 and vaccines.

In 2019, Children’s Health Defense reported it had $2.94 million in revenue, and paid Kennedy a $255,000 salary. Its revenue grew 440% through 2021, according to IRS filings, hitting $15.99 million. Kennedy’s salary increased to $497,013. (Its 2022 form 990 for tax disclosure is not yet public. Kennedy has been on leave from the organization since he entered the presidential race in April.)

On social media, the message had limits. Meta removed Kennedy’s personal Instagram account in February 2021 for spreading false claims about covid-19 and vaccines, the company said, but left his Facebook account active. A year and a half later, Meta banned Children’s Health Defense’s main Facebook and Instagram accounts for “repeatedly” violating its medical misinformation policies. Several state chapters still have accounts.

As the group’s face, Kennedy became a leader of a movement opposed to masks and stay-at-home orders, said David H. Gorski, managing editor of Science-Based Medicine and a professor of surgery and oncology at the Wayne State University School of Medicine.

“The pandemic produced a new generation of anti-vaxxers who had either not been prominent before or who were not really anti-vax before,” Gorski said. “But none of them had the same cultural cachet that comes with being a Kennedy that RFK Jr. has.”

Rallying a crowd before the Lincoln Memorial on Jan. 23, 2022, Kennedy protested covid-19 countermeasures alongside commentator Lara Logan and anti-vaccine activist Robert Malone. The crowd held signs reading “Nuremberg Trials 2.0” and “free choice, no masks, no tests, no vax.” When Kennedy took the stage, mention of his role with Children’s Health Defense prompted an exuberant cheer.

In his speech, Kennedy invoked the Holocaust to denounce the “turnkey totalitarianism” of a society that requires vaccinations to travel, uses digital currency and 5G, and is monitored by Microsoft Corp. co-founder Bill Gates’ satellites: “Even in Hitler’s Germany, you could cross the Alps into Switzerland. You could hide in an attic like Anne Frank did.”

Days later, facing criticism from his wife, the actor Cheryl Hines, Jewish advocacy groups, and Holocaust memorial organizations, Kennedy issued a rare apology for his comments.

Asked about his wife’s comment on Dec. 15 on CNN, he said his remarks were taken out of context but that he had to apologize because of his family.

Recycle. Repeat. Repeat.

When he’s asked about his views, Kennedy calmly searches his rhetorical laboratory for recycled talking points, selective research findings, the impression of voluminous valid studies, speculation, and inarguable authority from his experience. He refers to institutions, researchers, and reports, by name, in quick succession, shifting points before interviewers can note what was misleading or cherry-picked.

There is power in repetition. Take his persistent claim that vaccines are not safety-tested.

• In July, he told “Fox & Friends,” “Vaccines are the only medical product that is not safety-tested prior to licensure.”
• On Nov. 7 on PBS NewsHour, Kennedy said vaccines are “the only medical product or medical device that is allowed to get a license without engaging in safety tests.”
• On Dec. 15, he told CNN’s Kasie Hunt that no childhood vaccines have “ever been tested in a safety study pre-licensing.”

This is false. Vaccines, including the covid-19 vaccines, are tested for safety and effectiveness before they are licensed. Researchers gather initial safety data and information about side effects during phase 1 clinical trials on groups of 20 to 100 people. If no safety concerns are identified, subsequent phases rely on studies of larger numbers of volunteers to evaluate a vaccine’s effectiveness and monitor side effects.

Kennedy sometimes says that some vaccines weren’t tested against inactive injections or placebos. That has an element of truth: If using a placebo would disadvantage or potentially endanger a patient, researchers might test new vaccines against older versions with known side effects.

But vaccines are among “the most tested and vetted” pharmaceutical products given to children, said Patricia Stinchfield, a pediatric nurse practitioner and the president of the National Foundation for Infectious Diseases.

Kennedy encourages parents to research questions on their own, saying doctors and other experts are invariably compromised.

“They are taking as gospel what the CDC tells them,” Kennedy said on Bari Weiss’ “Honestly” podcast in June.

Public health agencies have been “serving the mercantile interests of the pharmaceutical companies, and you cannot believe anything that they say,” Kennedy said.

Experts fret that the Kennedy name carries weight.

“When he steps forward and he says the government’s lying to you, the FDA is lying to you, the CDC is lying to you, he has credence, because he’s seen as someone who is a product of the government,” said Paul Offit, a pediatrics professor in the Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia’s infectious diseases division and the director of the hospital’s Vaccine Education Center. “He’s like a whistleblower in that sense. He’s been behind the scenes, so he knows what it looks like, and he’s telling you that you’re being lied to.”

Kennedy name-drops studies that don’t support his commentary. When speaking with Rogan, Kennedy encouraged the podcaster’s staff to show a particular 2010 study that found that exposure to the herbicide atrazine caused some male frogs to develop female sex organs and become infertile.

Kennedy has repeatedly invoked that frog study to support his position that “we should all be looking at” atrazine and its impact on human beings. The researcher behind the study told PolitiFact in June that Kennedy’s atrazine claims were “speculation” given the vast differences between humans and amphibians. No scientific studies in humans link atrazine exposure to gender dysphoria.

In July, Kennedy floated the idea that covid-19 could have been “ethnically targeted” to “attack Caucasians and Black people. The people who are most immune are Ashkenazi Jews and Chinese.” The claim was ridiculously wrong, but Kennedy insisted that it was backed by a July 2020 study by Chinese researchers. That study didn’t find that Chinese people were less affected by the virus. It said one of the virus’s receptors seemed to be absent in the Amish and in Ashkenazi Jews and theorized that genetic factors might increase covid-19 severity.

Five months later, Kennedy invoked the study and insisted he was right: “I can understand why people were disturbed by those remarks. They certainly weren’t antisemitic. … I was talking about a true study, an NIH-funded study.”

“I wish I hadn’t said them, but, you know, what I said was true.”

Kennedy answered using scientific terms (“furin cleave,” “ACE2 receptor”), but he ignored explanations found in the study. He didn’t account for how the original virus has evolved since 2020, or how the study emphasized these potential mutations were rare and would have little to no public health impact.

Public health experts say that racial disparities in covid-19 infection and mortality — in the U.S., Black and Hispanic people often faced more severe covid-19 outcomes — resulted from social and economic inequities, not genetics.

Kennedy says “circumstantial evidence” is enough.

Antidepressants are linked to school shootings, he told listeners on a livestream hosted by Elon Musk. The government should have begun studying the issue years ago, he said, because “there’s tremendous circumstantial evidence that those, like SSRIs and benzos and other drugs, are doing this.”

Experts in psychiatry have told PolitiFact and other fact-checkers that there is no causal relationship between antidepressants and shootings. With 13% of the adult population using antidepressants, experts say that if the link were true they would expect higher rates of violence. Also, the available data on U.S. school shootings shows most shooters were not using psychiatric medicines, which have an anti-violence effect.

Conspiracy Theories, Consequences, and a Presidential Campaign

The anti-censorship candidate frames his first bid for public office as a response to “18 years” of being shunned for his views — partly by the government, but also by private companies.

“You’re protected so much from censorship if you’re running for president,” Kennedy told conservative Canadian podcaster and psychologist Jordan Peterson in June.

In June, Kennedy’s Instagram account was reinstated — with a verified badge noting he is a public figure. Meta’s rules on misinformation do not apply to active political candidates. (PolitiFact is a partner of Meta’s Third Party Fact-Checking Program, which seeks to reduce false content on the platform.)

In July, he was invited to testify before the Republican-led House Select Subcommittee on the Weaponization of the Federal Government. He repeated that he had “never been anti-vax,” and railed against the Biden White House for asking Twitter to remove his January 2021 tweet that said Baseball Hall of Famer Hank Aaron’s death was “part of a wave of suspicious deaths among elderly,” weeks after Aaron, 86, received a covid-19 vaccine. The medical examiner’s office said Aaron died from unrelated natural causes.

Throughout 2023, alternative media has embraced Kennedy. He has regularly appeared on podcasts such as Peterson’s, and has also participated in profiles by mainstream TV, online, and print sources.

“You’re like, ‘But you’re talking right now. I’m listening to you. I hear your words. You’re not being censored,’” said Whitney Phillips, an assistant professor in the School of Journalism and Communication at the University of Oregon who researches how news media covers conspiracy theories and their proponents. “But a person can believe they’re being censored because they’ve internalized that they’re going to be,” or they know making the claim will land with their audience.

Time will tell whether his message resonates with voters.

Kyle Kondik, managing editor of Sabato’s Crystal Ball at the University of Virginia Center for Politics, said Kennedy may be a “placeholder” for voters who are dissatisfied with Trump and Biden and will take a third option when offered by pollsters.

The only 2024 candidate whose favorability ratings are more positive than negative? It’s Kennedy, according to FiveThirtyEight. However, a much higher percentage of voters are unfamiliar with him than they are with Trump or Biden — about a quarter — and Kennedy’s favorability edge has decreased as his campaign has gone on.

Nevertheless, third-party candidates historically finish with a fraction of their polling, Kondik said, and voters will likely have more names and parties on their fall ballots, including philosopher Cornel West, physician Jill Stein, and a potential slate from the No Labels movement.

Kennedy was popular with conservative commentators before he became an independent, and he has avoided pointedly criticizing Trump, except on covid-19 lockdowns. When NBC News asked Kennedy in August what he thought of Trump’s 2020 election lies, Kennedy said he believed Trump lost, but that, in general, people who believe elections were stolen “should be listened to.” Kennedy is one of them. He still says that the 2004 presidential election was “stolen” from Kerry in favor of Republican George W. Bush, though it wasn’t.

American Values 2024 will spend up to $15 million to get Kennedy’s name on the ballot in 10 states including Arizona, California, Indiana, New York, and Texas. Those are five of the toughest states for ballot access, said Richard Winger, co-editor of Ballot Access News.

Four of Kennedy’s siblings called Kennedy’s decision to run as an independent “dangerous” and “perilous” to the nation. “Bobby might share the same name as our father, but he does not share the same values, vision or judgment,” the group wrote in a joint statement.

Kennedy brushes it off when asked, saying he has a large family and some members support him.

On her podcast, Weiss asked whether Kennedy worried his position on autism and vaccines would cloud his other positions and cost him votes. His answer ignored his history.

“Show me where I got it wrong,” he said, “and I’ll change.”

In a campaign constructed by lies, that might be the biggest one.

PolitiFact researcher Caryn Baird contributed to this report.​

PolitiFact’s source list can be found here.

KFF Health News is a national newsroom that produces in-depth journalism about health issues and is one of the core operating programs at KFF—an independent source of health policy research, polling, and journalism. Learn more about KFF.

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Julie Rovner is chief Washington correspondent and host of KFF Health News’ weekly health policy news podcast, “What the Health?” A noted expert on health policy issues, Julie is the author of the critically praised reference book “Health Care Politics and Policy A to Z,” now in its third edition.

With other GOP presidential candidates following Donald Trump’s lead in calling for an end to the Affordable Care Act, Democrats are jumping on an issue they think will favor them in the 2024 elections. The Biden administration almost immediately rolled out a controversial proposal that could dramatically decrease the price of drugs developed with federally funded research dollars. The drug industry and the business community at large are vehemently opposed to the proposal, but it is likely to be popular with voters.

Meanwhile, the Supreme Court hears arguments in a case to decide whether the Sackler family should be able to shield billions of dollars taken from its bankrupt drug company, Purdue Pharma, from further lawsuits regarding the company’s highly addictive drug OxyContin.

This week’s panelists are Julie Rovner of KFF Health News, Anna Edney of Bloomberg News, Alice Miranda Ollstein of Politico, and Rachana Pradhan of KFF Health News.

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Anna Edney
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Alice Miranda Ollstein
Politico

@AliceOllstein

Read Alice's stories

Rachana Pradhan
KFF Health News

@rachanadpradhan

Read Rachana's stories

Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:

• The ACA may end up back on the proverbial chopping block if Trump is reelected. But as many in both parties know, it is unlikely to be a winning political strategy for Republicans. ACA enrollment numbers are high, as is the law’s popularity, and years after a failed effort during Trump’s presidency, Republicans still have not unified around a proposal to replace it.
• Democrats are eager to capitalize on the revival of “repeal and replace.” This week, the Biden administration announced plans to exercise so-called “march-in rights,” which it argues allow the government to seize certain patent-protected drugs whose prices have gotten too high and open them to price competition. The plan, once largely embraced by progressives, could give President Joe Biden another opportunity to claim his administration has proven more effective than Trump’s heading into the 2024 election.
• The Senate voted to approve more than 400 military promotions this week, effectively ending the 10-month blockade by Republican Sen. Tommy Tuberville of Alabama over a Pentagon policy that helps service members travel to obtain abortions. At the state level, the Texas courts are considering cases over its exceptions to the state’s abortion ban, while in Ohio, a woman who miscarried after being sent home from the hospital is facing criminal charges.
• Meanwhile, the Supreme Court soon could rule on whether EMTALA, or the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act, requires doctors to perform abortions in emergencies. And justices are also considering whether to allow a settlement deal to move forward that does not hold the Sacker family accountable for the harm caused by opioids.
• “This Week in Medical Misinformation” highlights a lawsuit filed by Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton accusing Pfizer of failing to end the covid-19 pandemic with its vaccine.

Also this week, Rovner interviews Dan Weissmann, host of KFF Health News’ sister podcast, “An Arm and a Leg,” about his investigation into hospitals suing their patients for unpaid medical bills.

Plus, for “extra credit,” the panelists suggest health policy stories they read this week that they think you should read, too:

Julie Rovner: The Wisconsin State Journal’s “Dane, Milwaukee Counties Stop Making Unwed Fathers Pay for Medicaid Birth Costs,” by David Wahlberg.  

Anna Edney: Bloomberg News’ “Tallying the Best Stats on US Gun Violence Is Trauma of Its Own,” by Madison Muller.  

Alice Miranda Ollstein: Stat’s “New Abortion Restrictions Pose a Serious Threat to Fetal Surgery,” by Francois I. Luks, Tippi Mackenzie, and Thomas F. Tracy Jr. 

Rachana Pradhan: KFF Health News’ “Patients Expected Profemur Artificial Hips to Last. Then They Snapped in Half,” by Brett Kelman and Anna Werner, CBS News.

Also mentioned in this week’s episode:

• Bloomberg News’ “The Pentagon Wants to Root Out Shoddy Drugs. The FDA Is in Its Way,” by Anna Edney and Riley Griffin.
• Ars Technica’s “Texas Sues Pfizer With COVID Anti-Fax Argument That Is Pure Stupid,” by Beth Mole.

Click to open the transcript

Transcript: Democrats See Opportunity in GOP Threats to Repeal Health Law 

KFF Health News’ ‘What the Health?’Episode Title: Democrats See Opportunity in GOP Threats to Repeal Health LawEpisode Number: 325Published: Dec. 7, 2023

[Editor’s note: This transcript was generated using both transcription software and a human’s light touch. It has been edited for style and clarity.]

Julie Rovner: Hello, and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Julie Rovner, chief Washington correspondent for KFF Health News, and I’m joined by some of the best and smartest reporters in Washington. We’re taping this week on Thursday, Dec. 7, at 10 a.m. As always, news happens fast, and things might’ve changed by the time you hear this. So here we go. Today, we are joined via video conference by Alice Miranda Ollstein of Politico.

Alice Miranda Ollstein: Good morning.

Rovner: Anna Edney of Bloomberg News.

Anna Edney: Hello.

Rovner: And my KFF Health News colleague Rachana Pradhan.

Rachana Pradhan: Good morning, Julie.

Rovner: Later in this episode we’ll have my interview with Dan Weissmann, host of our sister podcast, “An Arm and a Leg.” Dan’s been working on a very cool two-part episode about hospitals suing their patients that he will explain. But first, this week’s news. So now that former President [Donald] Trump has raised the possibility of revisiting a repeal of the Affordable Care Act, all of the other Republican presidential wannabes are adding their two cents.

Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis says that rather than repeal and replace the health law, he would “repeal and supersede,” whatever that means. Nikki Haley has been talking up her anti-ACA bona fides in New Hampshire, and the leading Republican candidate for Senate in Montana is calling for a return to full health care privatization, which would mean getting rid of not only the Affordable Care Act, but also Medicare and Medicaid.

But the Affordable Care Act is more popular than ever, at least judging from this year’s still very brisk open enrollment signups. Alice, you wrote an entire story about how the ACA of 2023 is not the ACA of 2017, the last time Republicans took a serious run at it. How much harder would it be to repeal now?

Ollstein: It would be a lot harder. So, not only have a bunch of red and purple states expanded Medicaid since Republicans took their last swing at the law — meaning that a bunch more constituents in those states are getting coverage they weren’t getting before and might be upset if it was threatened by a repeal — but also just non-Medicaid enrollment is up as well, fueled in large part by all the new subsidies that were implemented over the last few years. And that’s true even in states that resisted expansions.

DeSantis’ Florida, for instance, has the highest exchange enrollment in the country. There’s just a lot more people with a lot more invested in maintaining the program. You have that higher enrollment, you have the higher popularity, and we still haven’t seen a real replacement or “supersede” plan, or whatever they want to call it. And folks I talk to on Capitol Hill, Republican lawmakers, even those that were pretty involved last time, do not think such a plan is coming.

Rovner: It did get asked about at the “last” Republican presidential primary debate last night, and there was an awful lot of hemming and hawing about greedy drug companies and greedy insurance companies, and I heard exactly nothing about any kind of plan. Has anybody else seen any sign of something that Republicans would actually do if they got rid of the Affordable Care Act?

Pradhan: No. There was a time, immediately after the ACA’s passage, that health care was a winning political issue for Republicans, right? It was multiple election cycles that they capitalized on Obamacare and used it to regain House majorities, Senate majorities, and the presidency eventually. But that has not been true for multiple years now. And I think they know that. I think establishment Republicans know that health care is not a winning issue for the party, which is why Democrats are so eager to capitalize on this reopening of ACA repeal, if you will.

Rovner: What a perfect segue, because I was going to say the Biden administration is wasting no time jumping back into health care with both feet, trying to capitalize on what it sees as a gigantic Republican misstep. Just this morning, they are rolling out new proposals aimed at further lowering prescription drug prices, and to highlight the fact that they’ve actually gotten somewhere in some lowering of prescription drug prices.

Now they would like to make it easier to use government “march-in rights,” which would let the government basically tell prescription drug companies, “You’re going to lower your price because we’re going to let other people compete against you, despite your patent.” They’re also doing, and I will use their words, a cross-government public inquiry into corporate greed in health care. Now, some of these things are super controversial. I mean, the march-in rights even before this was unveiled, we saw the drug industry complaining against. But they could also have a real impact if they did some of this, right? Anna, you’ve watched the drug price issue.

Edney: Yeah, I think they definitely could have an impact. This is one of those situations with the march-in rights where we don’t have any clue on where or how exactly, because we haven’t been told that this drug or this class of drugs are kind of what we’re aiming at at this point. It sounds like maybe there’s a little bit more of the plan to be baked, but I am sure there are a lot of progressives, particularly, who had pushed for this that, over the years, who are very excited to even see it mentioned and moving in some sort of way, which hasn’t really happened before.

And, clearly, the Biden administration wants to, like you said, capitalize on health care being part of the campaign. And they’ve done a lot on drug prices, at least a lot in the sense of what can be done. There’s negotiation in Medicare now for some drugs. They kept insulin for Medicare as well. So this is just another step they can say, “We’re doing something else,” and we’d have to see down the line exactly where they’d even plan to use it.

And, of course, as pharma always does, they said that this will hurt innovation and we won’t get any drugs. Not that things have been in place that long, but, clearly, we haven’t seen that so far.

Rovner: Yes, that is always their excuse. I feel like this is one of those times where it doesn’t even matter if any of these things get done, they’re putting them out there just to keep the debate going. This is obviously ground that the Biden campaign would love to campaign on — rather than talking about the economy that makes people mostly unhappy. I assume we’ll be seeing more of this.

Edney: Yeah. Your food prices and other things are very high right now. But if they can talk about getting drug prices lower, that’s a totally different thing that they can point to.

Ollstein: And it’s an easy way to draw the contrast. For people who might be apathetic and think, “Oh, it doesn’t matter who wins the presidential election,” this is an area where the Biden administration can credibly claim, based on what Trump recently said, “This is what’s at stake. This is the difference between my opponent and me. The health care of millions is on the line,” which has been a winning message in past elections.

And what’s been really striking to me is that even talking to a bunch of conservatives now, even though they don’t like the Affordable Care Act, they even are starting to argue that full-scale repeal and replace — now that it’s the status quo — that’s not even a conservative proposal.

They’re saying that it’s more conservative to propose smaller changes that chip around the edges and create some alternatives, but mainly leave it in place, which I think is really interesting, because for so long the litmus test was: Are you for full repeal, root and branch? And we’re just not really hearing that much anymore — except from Trump!

Rovner: The difficulty from the beginning is that the basis of the ACA was a Republican proposal. I mean, they were defanged from the start. It’s been very hard for them to come up with a replacement. What it already is is what Mitt Romney did in Massachusetts. Well, let us turn to the other big issue that Democrats hope will be this coming election year, and that’s abortion, where there was lots of news this week.

We will start with the fact that the 10-month blockade of military promotions by Alabama Republican Sen. Tommy Tuberville is over. Well, mostly over. On Tuesday, the Senate approved by voice vote more than 400 promotions that Tuberville had held up, with only a few four-star nominees still in question. Tuberville’s protests had angered not just Senate Democrats and the Biden administration, who said it was threatening national security, but increasingly his own Senate Republican colleagues.

Tuberville said he was holding up the nominations to protest the Biden administration’s policy of allowing active-duty military members and their dependents to travel out of state for an abortion if they’re stationed where it’s illegal, like in, you know, Alabama. So Alice, what did Tuberville get in exchange for dropping his 10-month blockade?

Ollstein: So, not much. I mean, his aim was to force the Biden administration to change the policy, and that didn’t happen — the policy supporting folks in the military traveling if they’re based in a state where abortion is banned and they need an abortion, supporting the travel to another state, still not paying for the abortion itself, which is still banned. And so that was the policy Tuberville was trying to get overturned, and he did not get that. So he’s claiming that what he got was drawing attention to it, basically. So we’ll see if he tries to use this little bit of remaining leverage to do anything. It does not seem like much was accomplished through this means, although there is a lot of anxiety that this sets a precedent for the future, not just on abortion issues, but, really, could inspire any senator to try to do this and hold a bunch of nominees hostage for whatever policy purpose they want.

Rovner: I know. I mean, senators traditionally sit on nominees for Cabinet posts. And the FDA and the CMS [Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services] didn’t have a director for, like, three administrations because members were angry at the administration for something about Medicare and Medicaid. But I had never seen anybody hold up military promotions before. This was definitely something new. Rachana, you were going to add something?

Pradhan: Oh, I mean, I was just thinking on Alabama specifically. I mean, I don’t claim to know, even though there was rising anger in Sen. Tuberville’s own party about this move. I mean, I’m not saying I know that this is a factor or not, but in Alabama, regardless of what he tried to do, I think that the attorney general in Alabama has made it clear that he might try to prosecute organizations that help people travel out of state to get abortions.

And so, it’s not like this is only the last word when you’re even talking about military officers or people in the military. Even in his home state, you might see some greater activity on that anyway, which might make it easier for him to honestly, in a way, give it up because it’s not the only way that you could presumably prosecute organizations or people who tried to help others go out of state to access abortion.

Rovner: Yeah, it’s important to say that while he irritated a lot of people in Washington, he probably had a lot of support from people back home in Alabama, which he kept pointing out.

Ollstein: Right. And I saw national anti-abortion groups really cheering him on and urging their members to send him thank-you letters and such. And so definitely not just in his home state. There are conservatives who were backing this.

Rovner: Well, moving on to Texas, because there is always abortion news out of Texas, we have talked quite a bit about the lawsuit filed by women who experienced pregnancy complications and couldn’t get abortions. Well, now we have a separate emergency lawsuit from a woman named Kate Cox, who is currently seeking an abortion because of the threat to her health and life.

Both of these lawsuits aren’t trying to strike the Texas ban, just to clarify when a doctor can perform a medically needed abortion without possibly facing jail time or loss of their medical license. Alice, I know the hearing for Kate Cox is happening even now as we are taping. What’s the status of the other case? We’re waiting to hear from the Texas Supreme Court. Is that where it is?

Ollstein: Yeah. So oral arguments were the other day and a bunch of new plaintiffs have joined the lawsuit. So it’s expanded to a few dozen people now, mostly patients, but some doctors as well who are directly impacted by the law. There was some interesting back and forth in the oral arguments over standing.

And one of the things the state was hammering was that they don’t have standing to sue because they aren’t in this situation that this other woman is in today, where they’re actively pregnant, actively in crisis, and being actively prevented from accessing the health care that they need that their doctor recommends, which in some circumstances is an abortion. And so I think this is an interesting test of the state’s argument on that front.

Rovner: Also, the idea, I mean, that a woman who literally is in the throes of this crisis would step forward and have her name in public and it’s going to court in an emergency hearing today.

Ollstein: Right, as opposed to the other women who were harmed previously. By the time they are seeking relief in court, their pregnancy is already over and the damage has already been done, but they’re saying it’s a threat of a future pregnancy. It’s impacting their willingness to become pregnant again, knowing what could happen, what already happened. But the state was saying like, “Oh, but because you’re not actively in the moment, you shouldn’t have the right to sue.” And so now we’ll see what they say when someone is really in the throes of it.

Rovner: In the moment. Well, another troubling story this week comes from Warren, Ohio, where a woman who experienced a miscarriage is being charged with “abuse of a corpse” because she was sent home from the hospital after her water broke early and miscarried into her toilet, which is gross, but that’s how most miscarriages happen.

The medical examiner has since determined that the fetus was, in fact, born dead and was too premature to survive anyway. Yet the case seems to be going forward. Is this what we can expect to see in places like Ohio where abortion remains legal, but prosecutors want to find other ways to punish women?

Ollstein: I mean, I also think it’s an important reminder that people were criminalized for pregnancy loss while Roe [v. Wade] was still in place. I mean, it was rare, but it did happen. And there are groups tracking it. And so I think that it’s not a huge surprise that it could happen even more now, in this post-Roe era, even in states like Ohio that just voted overwhelmingly to maintain access to abortion.

Pradhan: Julie, do we know what hospital? Because when I was looking at the story, do we know what kind of hospital it was that sent this person away?

Rovner: No. The information is still pretty sketchy about this case, although we do know the prosecutor is sending it to a grand jury. We know that much. I mean, the case is going forward. And we do know that her water broke early and that she did visit, I believe, it was two hospitals, although I have not seen them named. I mean, there’s clearly more information to come about this case.

But yeah, Alice is right. I mean, I wrote about a case in Indiana that was in 2012 or 2013, it was a long time ago, about a woman who tried to kill herself and ended up only killing her fetus and ended up in jail for a year. I mean, was eventually released, but … it’s unusual but not unprecedented for women to be prosecuted, basically, for pregnancy loss.

Ollstein: Yeah, especially people who are struggling with substance abuse. That’s been a major area where that’s happened.

Pradhan: I would personally be very interested in knowing the hospitals that are a part of this and whether they are religiously affiliated, because there’s a standard of care in medicine for what happens if you have your water break before the fetus is viable and what’s supposed to happen versus what can happen.

Rovner: There was a case in Michigan a few years ago where it was a Catholic hospital. The woman, her water broke early. She was in a Catholic hospital, and they also sent her home. I’m trying to remember where she finally got care. But yeah, that has been an issue also over the years. Well, meanwhile, back here in Washington, the Supreme Court is likely to tell us shortly, I believe, whether the 1986 Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act, known as EMTALA, requires doctors to perform abortions in life-threatening situations, as the Biden administration maintains.

Alice, this case is on what’s known as the “shadow docket” of the Supreme Court, meaning it has not been fully briefed and argued. It’s only asking if the court will overturn a lower court’s ruling that the federal law trumps the state’s ban. When are we expecting to hear something?

Ollstein: It could be after justices meet on Friday. Really, it could be whenever after that. As we’ve seen in the last few years, the shadow docket can be very unpredictable, and we could just get, at very odd times, major decisions that impact the whole country or just one state. And so, yes, I mean, this issue of abortion care and emergency circumstances is playing out in court in a couple different states, and the federal government is getting involved in some of those states.

And so I think this could be a big test. Unlike a lot of lawsuits going on right now, this is not seeking to strike down the state’s abortion ban entirely. It’s just trying to expand and clarify that people who are in the middle of a medical emergency shouldn’t be subject to the ban.

Rovner: It’s similar to what they’re fighting about in Texas, actually.

Ollstein: Yeah, exactly. And this is still playing out at the 9th Circuit, but they’re trying to leapfrog that and get the Supreme Court to weigh in the meantime.

Rovner: Yeah, and we shall see. All right, well, while we’re on the subject of “This Week in Court,” let us move on to the case that was argued in public at the Supreme Court this week about whether the Sackler family can keep much of its wealth while declaring bankruptcy for its drug company, Purdue Pharma, that’s been found liable for exacerbating, if not causing much of the nation’s opioid epidemic.

The case involves basically two bad choices: Let the Sacklers manipulate the federal bankruptcy code to shield billions of dollars from future lawsuits or further delay justice for millions of people injured by the company’s behavior. And the justices themselves seem pretty divided over which way to go. Anna, what’s at stake here? This is a lot, isn’t it?

Edney: Yeah. I mean, it’s interesting how it doesn’t exactly break down on ideological lines. The justices were — I don’t want to say all over the place, because that sounds disrespectful — but they had concerns on many different levels. And one is that the victims and their lawyers negotiated the settlement because for them it was the best way they felt that they could get compensation, and they didn’t feel that they could get it without letting the Sacklers off the hook, that the Sacklers basically would not sign the settlement agreement, and they were willing to go that route.

And the government is worried about using that and letting the Sacklers off the hook in this way and using this bankruptcy deal to be able to shield a lot of their money that they took out of the company, essentially, and have in their personal wealth now. And so that’s something that a lot of companies are, not a lot, but companies are looking to hope to use the sign of bankruptcy protection when it comes to big class-action lawsuits and harm to consumers.

And so I think that what the worry is is that that then becomes the precedent, that the ones at the very top will always get off because it’s easier to negotiate the settlement that way.

Rovner: We’ll obviously have to wait until — as this goes a few months — to see the decisions in this case, but it’s going to be interesting. I think everybody, including the justices, are unhappy with the set of facts here, but that’s why it was in front of the Supreme Court. So our final entry in “This Week in Court” is a twofer. It is also “This Week in Health Misinformation.”

Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton has filed suit against Pfizer for allegedly violating Texas’ Deceptive Trade Practices Act because its covid vaccine did not, in fact, end the covid epidemic. Quoting from the attorney general’s press release, “We are pursuing justice for the people of Texas, many of whom were coerced by tyrannical vaccine mandates to take a defective product sold by lies.” It’s hard to even know where to start with this, except that, I guess, anyone can sue anyone for anything in Texas, right?

Edney: Yeah, that’s a very good point. The entire concept of it feels so weird. I mean, a vaccine doesn’t cure anything, right? That’s not the point of a vaccine. It’s not a drug. It is a vaccine that is supposed to prevent you from getting something, and not everybody took it. So that feels like the end of the story, but, clearly, the attorney general would prefer attention, I think, on this, and to continue to sow doubt in vaccines and the government and the Food and Drug Administration seems to be maybe more of the point here.

Rovner: I noticed he’s only suing for, I think, it’s $10 million, which is frankly not a ton of money to a company as big as Pfizer. So one would assume that he’s doing this more for the publicity than for the actual possibility of getting something.

Pradhan: Yeah, I think Pfizer’s CEO’s annual salary is more than the damages that are being sought in this case. So it’s really not very much money at all. I mean, more broadly speaking, I mean, Texas, Florida, I think you see especially post-public-health-emergency-covid times, the medical freedom movement has really taken root in a lot of these places.

And I think that it just seems like this is adding onto that, where doctors say they should be able to give ivermectin to covid patients and it helped them and not be at risk of losing their license. And that’s really kind of an anti-vaccine sentiment. Obviously, it’s very alive and well.

Rovner: We are post-belief-in-scientific-expertise.

Edney: Well, I was going to say, I appreciated The Texas Tribune’s story on this because they called out every time in this lawsuit that he was twisting the truth or just completely not telling the truth at all in the sense that he said that more people who took the vaccine died, and that’s clearly not the case. And so I appreciated that they were trying to call him out every time that he said something that wasn’t true, but was just completely willing to put that out in the public sphere as if it was.

Rovner: There was also a great story on Ars Technica, which is a scientific website, about how the lawsuit completely misrepresents the use of statistics, just got it completely backwards. We’ll post a link to that one too. Well, while we are talking about drug companies, let’s talk about some drugs that really may not be what companies say they are.

Anna, you have a new story up this week about the Pentagon’s effort to ensure that generic drugs are actually copies of the drugs they’re supposed to be. That effort’s running into a roadblock. Tell us a little about that.

Edney: Yeah, thanks for letting me talk about this one. It’s “The Pentagon Wants to Root Out Shoddy Drugs. The FDA Is in Its Way.” So the FDA is the roadblock to trying to figure out whether the drugs, particularly that the military and their family members are taking, work well and don’t have side effects that could be extremely harmful. So what’s going on here is that the Defense Department and others, the White House even, has grown skeptical of the FDA’s ability to police generic drugs, largely that are made overseas.

We did some analysis and we found that it was actually 2019 was the first time that generic drug-making facilities in India surpassed the number of those in the U.S. So we are making more, not just active ingredients, but finished products over in India. And the FDA just doesn’t have a good line into India. They don’t do many unannounced inspections. They usually have to tell the company they’re coming weeks in advance. And what we found is when the Defense Department started looking into this, they partnered with a lab to test some of these drugs.

They got some early results. Those results were concerning, as far as the drug might not work, and also could cause kidney failure, seizures. And even despite this, they’ve been facing the FDA around every corner trying to stop them and trying to get them not to test drugs. They say it’s a waste of money, when, in fact, Kaiser Permanente has been doing this for its 12.7 million members for several years.

And it just seems like something is going on at the FDA and that they don’t want people to have any questions about generic drugs. They really just want everyone to accept that they’re always exactly the same, and they even derail the White House effort to try to look into this more as well. But the Pentagon said, “Thank you very much, FDA, but we’re going forward with this.”

Rovner: Yeah. I mean, I could see that the FDA would be concerned about … they’re supposed to be the last word on these things. But, as you point out and as much of your reporting has pointed out over the last couple of years, the FDA has not been able to keep up with really making sure that these drugs are what they say they are.

Edney: One thing I learned that was interesting, and this is that in Europe, actually, there’s a network of 70 labs that do this kind of testing before drugs reach patients and after they reach patients. So it’s not a totally unusual thing. And for some reason, the FDA does not want that to happen.

Rovner: Well, finally on the drug beat this week, CVS announced earlier that it would overhaul its drug pricing to better reflect how much it pays for the drugs, all of which sounds great, but the fact is that how much CVS pays for the drugs doesn’t have all that much effect on how much we end up paying CVS for those same drugs, right? They’re just changing how they get the drugs from the manufacturers, not necessarily how they price it for the customers.

Pradhan: I think my main question would be, what does that mean for a patient’s out-of-pocket cost for prescriptions? I don’t know how much of this has to do with … for CVS as the pharmacy, but we have CVS Caremark, which is a major PBM, and how this affects the pricing models there. And PBMs, of course, have been under scrutiny in Congress. And there’s outside pressure too, right? The story that you highlighted, Julie, talks about Mark Cuban’s affordable-drug effort. And so, yeah, I don’t know. I mean, I think it sounds good until maybe we see some more details, right?

Rovner: I saw one story that said, “This could really help lower drug prices for consumers,” and one that said, “This could actually raise drug prices for consumers.” So I’m assuming that this is another one where we’re going to have to wait and see the details of. All right, well, that is this week’s news.

Now we will play my interview with Dan Weissmann of the “Arm and a Leg” podcast, and then we will come back with our extra credits. I am pleased to welcome back to the podcast Dan Weissmann, host of KFF Health News’s sister podcast, “An Arm and a Leg.” Dan has a cool two-part story on hospitals suing patients for overdue bills that he’s here to tell us about. Dan, welcome back.

Dan Weissmann: Julie, thanks so much for having me.

Rovner: So over the past few years, there have been a lot of stories about hospitals suing former patients, including a big investigation by KFF Health News. But you came at this from kind of a different perspective. Tell us what you were trying to find out.

Weissmann: We were trying to figure out why hospitals file lawsuits in bulk. Investigative reporters like Jay Hancock at KFF [Health News] have documented this practice, and one of the things that they note frequently is how little money hospitals get from these lawsuits. Jay Hancock compared the amount that VCU [Health] was seeking from patients and compared it to that hospital system’s annual surplus, their profit margin, and it looked tiny. And other studies document essentially the same thing. So why do they do it?

And we got a clue from a big report done by National Nurses United in Maryland, which, in addition to documenting how little money hospitals were getting compared to the million-dollar salaries they were paying executives in this case, also noted that a relatively small number of attorneys were filing most of these lawsuits. Just five attorneys filed two-thirds of the 145,000 lawsuits they documented across 10 years, and just one attorney filed more than 40,000 cases. So we were like, huh, maybe that’s a clue. Maybe we found somebody who is getting something out of this. We should find out more.

Rovner: So you keep saying “we” — you had some help working on this. Tell us about your partners.

Weissmann: Oh my God, we were so, so lucky. We work with The Baltimore Banner, which is a new daily news outlet in Baltimore, new nonprofit news outlet in Baltimore, that specializes in data reporting. Their data editor, Ryan Little, pulled untold numbers of cases, hundreds of thousands of cases, from the Maryland courts’ website and analyzed them to an inch of their life and taught us more than I could ever have imagined.

And Scripps News also came in as a partner and one of their data journalists, Rosie Cima, pulled untold numbers of records from the Wisconsin court system and worked to analyze data that we also got from a commercial firm that has a cache of data that has more detail than what we could pull off the website. It was a heroic effort by those folks.

Rovner: So what did you find? Not what you were expecting, right?

Weissmann: No. While Rosie and Ryan were especially gathering all this data and figuring out what to do with it, I was out talking to a lot of people. And what I found out is that in the main, it appears that frequently when these lawsuits happen and when hospitals file lawsuits in general, they’re not being approached by attorneys. They’re working with collection agencies. And most hospitals do work with a collection agency, and it’s essentially like, I put it like, you get a menu, oh, I’m having a hamburger, I’m going to pursue people for bills.

Like, OK, do you want onions? Do you want mustard? Do you want relish? What do you want on it? And in this case, it’s like, how hard do you want us to go after people? Do you want us to hit their credit reports — if you still can do that, because the CFPB [Consumer Financial Protection Bureau] has been making regulations about that — but do you want us to do that? How often can we call them? And do you want us to file lawsuits if we don’t get results? And so that is essentially in consultation with the hospital’s revenue department and the collection agency, and it’s a strategic decision between them.

That was what we found out through talking to people. What Rosie and Ryan turned up, and the data we had from the folks in New York backed up, is that, surprisingly, in the three states that we looked at, there’s just so much less of this activity than we had expected to find. In Maryland, Ryan sent me a series of emails, the first saying, like, “I’m not actually seeing any this year. That’s got to be wrong. They must be hiding them somewhere. I’m going to go investigate.” And a week later he was like, “I think I found them, and then we’ll go run some more numbers.”

And then a week later, after going to the courthouse and looking at everything you could find, he was like, “No, actually Maryland hospitals just do not seem to be suing anybody this year.” And we had expected there to be fewer lawsuits, but zero was a surprise to everybody. In New York, we appear to have found that two of those three law firms handling all those cases are no longer handling medical bill cases. And in Wisconsin, final numbers are still being crunched. Our second part will have all those numbers.

The Banner is coming out with their numbers this week. But Scripps News and us are still crunching numbers in Wisconsin. But what was the biggest shocker was, I can just tell you, there were so many fewer lawsuits than we had expected, and many of the most active plaintiffs had either cut the practice entirely, like filing zero lawsuits or filing hardly any. One of the things that a lot of these reports that look at across a state, like in New York and the Maryland report, note, and that we found in Wisconsin too, is that most hospitals don’t do this.

Noam Levey at KFF [Health News] found that many hospitals have policies that say, “We might file a lawsuit,” and some larger number of hospitals file some lawsuits. But in all these cases where you’re seeing tons of lawsuits filed, the phenomenon of suing people in bulk is actually not business as usual for most hospitals. That is driven by a relatively small group of players. There was a study in North Carolina by the state treasurers, obviously and Duke University, that found 95% of all the lawsuits were filed by just a few institutions.

The New York people found this. We’ve seen it in Wisconsin. So I mean, it’s another very interesting question when you’re looking at why does this happen. It’s like it’s not something that most institutions do. And again, in Wisconsin, we found that most of the players that had been the most active had basically stopped.

Rovner: Do we know why? Is it just all of the attention that we’ve seen to this issue?

Weissmann: Probably the answer is we don’t know why. Our colleagues at The Banner called every hospital in Maryland and were not told very much. We emailed all the hospitals in Wisconsin that we could that we had seen dramatically decrease, and nobody came to the phone. So we don’t really know.

But it does seem like, certainly in Maryland and New York, there were these huge campaigns that got tons of publicity and got laws changed, got laws passed. And there has been attention. The reports that Bobby Peterson put out in Wisconsin got attention locally. Sarah Kliff of The New York Times, who’s been writing about these kinds of lawsuits, has written multiple times about hospitals in Wisconsin. So it seems like a good first guess, but it’s a guess. Yeah.

Rovner: Well, one thing that I was interested that you did turn up, as you pointed out at the top, hospitals don’t get very much money from doing this. You’re basically suing people for money that they don’t have. So you did find other ways that hospitals could get reimbursed. I mean, they are losing a lot of money from people who can’t pay, even people with insurance, who can’t pay their multi-thousand-dollar deductible. So what could they be doing instead?

Weissmann: They could be doing a better job of evaluating people’s ability to pay upfront. The majority of hospitals in the United States are obligated by the Affordable Care Act to have charity care policies, financial assistance policies, in which they spell out, if you make less than a certain amount of money, it’s a multiple of the federal poverty level that they choose, we’ll forgive some or all of your bill. And, frequently, that number is as much as four times the federal poverty level. They might knock 75% off your bill, which is a huge help.

And as a guy that I met noted, using data from KFF, 58% of Americans make less than 75% of the federal poverty level. That is a lot of people. And so if you’re chasing someone for a medical bill, they might very well have been someone you could have extended financial assistance to. This guy, his name is Nick McLaughlin, he worked for 10 years for a medical bill collections agency. Someone in his family had a medical bill they were having a hard time paying, and he figured out that they qualified for charity care, but the application process, he noted, was really cumbersome, and even just figuring out how to apply was a big process. And so he thought, I know that chasing people for money they don’t have isn’t really the best business model and that we’re often chasing people for money they don’t have. What if we encourage hospitals to be more proactive about figuring out if someone should be getting charity care from them in the first place?

Because, as he said, every time you send someone a bill, you’re spending two bucks. And you’re not just sending one bill, you’re sending like three bills and a final notice. That all adds up, and you’re manning a call center. You’re spending money and you’re missing opportunities by not evaluating people. Because while you’re asking about their income, you might find out they’re eligible for Medicaid, and you can get paid by Medicaid rather than chasing them for money they don’t have.

And two, they might update their insurance information from you and you can get money from their insurance. You can extend financial assistance to somebody, as you said, who has a deductible they can’t pay, and they might actually come to you for care that you can unlock money from their insurance if they’re going to come to you because they’re not afraid of the bill.

I should absolutely say, while Nick McLaughlin is selling hospitals on the idea of adopting new software, which is a great idea, they should do that, they should be more proactive, an entity called Dollar For, a nonprofit organization out of the Pacific Northwest that’s been doing work all over the country, has been beating the drum about this and has a tool that anybody can use.

Essentially, go to their website, dollarfor.org, and type in where you were seen and an estimate of your income, and they will tell you, you’re likely to qualify for charity care at this hospital, because they have a database of every hospital’s policy. And if you need help applying, because some of these applications are burdensome, we’ll help you. So this exists, and everybody should know about it and everybody should tell everybody they know about it. I think the work they’re doing is absolutely heroic.

Rovner: Well, Dan Weissmann, thank you so much for joining us. We will post a link to Dan’s story in our show notes and on our podcast page.

Weissmann: Julie, thanks so much for having me.

Rovner: OK, we are back. And it’s time for our extra-credit segment. That’s when we each recommend a story we read this week we think you should read, too. As always, don’t worry if you miss it. We will post the links on the podcast page at kffhealthnews.org and in our show notes on your phone or other mobile device. Anna, why don’t you go first this week?

Edney: Sure. This is from my colleague Madison Muller, “Tallying the Best Stats on US Gun Violence Is Trauma of Its Own.” And I thought she just did such an amazing job with this story, talking to Mark Bryant, who helped start an organization, Gun Violence Archive, which is essentially the only place that is trying to tally every instance of gun violence.

And because of a lot of the restrictions that the NRA has helped get into government regulations and things, some of them which are more recently loosening, but because of those in the past, this is really the only way you could try to look up these statistics. And he’s just given the last decade of his life, with no breaks, trying to do this and his health is failing. And I thought it was just a really poignant look at somebody who has no skin in the game, but just wanted the right information out there.

Rovner: Yeah, obviously this is a big deal. Alice.

Ollstein: I did an op-ed that was published in Stat by a group of fetal medicine specialists who are writing about how their work is being compromised by state abortion bans right now. They were saying these are very risky, high-stakes procedures where they perform operations in utero, latent pregnancy usually, and it’s an attempt to save the pregnancy where there is a big risk. But with all of these, there are risks that it could end the pregnancy, and now they’re afraid of being prosecuted for that.

And they describe a bunch of challenging situations that, even without these bans are challenging, things where there’s twins and something to help one could harm the other twin, and this could all affect the health and life of the parent as well. And so they’re saying that they’re really in this whole new era and have to think about the legal risks, as well as the medical and bioethical ones that they already have to deal with.

Rovner: I’ve reported about this over the years, and I can tell you that these are always really wrenching family decisions about trying to desperately save a pregnancy by doing this extraordinarily difficult and delicate kind of procedure. Rachana.

Pradhan: My extra credit is a story from our colleague Brett Kelman, who worked on this investigation with CBS News. It is about a type of artificial hip known as Profemur that literally were snapping in half in patients’ bodies. I told Brett earlier this week that I was cringing at every line that I read. So if folks want to get a really, frankly, pretty gruesome, awful story about how people around the country have received these artificial hips, and the fact that they broke inside their bodies has really caused a lot of damage.

And, frankly, I know we talked about the FDA, but also this story really sheds light on how the FDA has dropped the ball in not acting with more urgency. And had they done that, many of these injuries likely would’ve been avoided. So, I urge everyone to read it. It’s a great story.

Rovner: It is. I also flinched when I was reading a lot of it. Well, my story is from the Wisconsin State Journal by David Wahlberg, and it’s called “Dane, Milwaukee Counties Stop Making Unwed Fathers Pay for Medicaid Birth Costs.” And while I have been covering Medicaid since the 1980s, and I never knew this even existed, it seems that a handful of states, Wisconsin among them, allows counties to go after the fathers of babies born on Medicaid, which is about half of all births — Medicaid’s about half of all births.

Not surprisingly, making moms choose between disclosing the father to whom she is not married to the state or losing Medicaid for her infant is not a great choice. And there’s lots of research to suggest that it can lead to bad birth outcomes, particularly in African American and Native American communities. I have long known that states can come after the estates of seniors who died after receiving Medicaid-paid nursing home or home care, but this one, at the other end of life, was a new one to me.

Now, I want to know how many other states are still doing this. And when I find out, I’ll report back.

OK, that is our show. As always, if you enjoy the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcast. We’d appreciate it if you left us a review. That helps other people find us too. Thanks, as always, to our tireless tech guru, Francis Ying, who’s back from vacation. Also, as always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org, or you can still find me at X, @jrovner, or @julierovner at Bluesky and Threads. Anna?

Edney: @anna_edneyreports on Threads and @annaedney on X.

Rovner: Rachana.

Pradhan: I’m @rachanadpradhan on X.

Rovner: Alice.

Ollstein: I’m @AliceOllstein on X, and @AliceMiranda on Bluesky.

Rovner: We will be back in your feed next week. Until then, be healthy.

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Julie Rovner is chief Washington correspondent and host of KFF Health News’ weekly health policy news podcast, “What the Health?” A noted expert on health policy issues, Julie is the author of the critically praised reference book “Health Care Politics and Policy A to Z,” now in its third edition.

Former president and current 2024 Republican front-runner Donald Trump is aiming to put a repeal of the Affordable Care Act back on the political agenda, much to the delight of Democrats, who point to the health law’s growing popularity.

Meanwhile, in Texas, the all-Republican state Supreme Court this week took up a lawsuit filed by more than two dozen women who said their lives were endangered when they experienced pregnancy complications due to the vague wording of the state’s near-total abortion ban.

This week’s panelists are Julie Rovner of KFF Health News, Joanne Kenen of Johns Hopkins University and Politico Magazine, Victoria Knight of Axios, and Sarah Karlin-Smith of the Pink Sheet.

Panelists

Joanne Kenen
Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico

@JoanneKenen

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Victoria Knight
Axios

@victoriaregisk

Read Victoria's stories

Sarah Karlin-Smith
Pink Sheet

@SarahKarlin

Read Sarah's stories

Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:

• The FDA recently approved another promising weight loss drug, offering another option to meet the huge demand for such drugs that promise notable health benefits. But Medicare and private insurers remain wary of paying the tab for these very expensive drugs.
• Speaking of expensive drugs, the courts are weighing in on the use of so-called copay accumulators offered by drug companies and others to reduce the cost of pricey pharmaceuticals for patients. The latest ruling called the federal government’s rules on the subject inconsistent and tied the use of copay accumulators to the availability of cheaper, generic alternatives.
• Congress will revisit government spending in January, but that isn’t soon enough to address the end-of-the-year policy changes for some health programs, such as pending cuts to Medicare payments for doctors.
• “This Week in Medical Misinformation” highlights a guide by the staff of Stat to help lay people decipher whether clinical study results truly represent a “breakthrough” or not.

Also this week, Rovner interviews KFF Health News’ Rachana Pradhan, who reported and wrote the latest “Bill of the Month” feature, about a woman who visited a hospital lab for basic prenatal tests and ended up owing almost $2,400. If you have an outrageous or baffling medical bill you’d like to share with us, you can do that here.

Plus, for “extra credit,” the panelists suggest health policy stories they read this week that they think you should read, too:

Julie Rovner: KFF Health News’ “Medicaid ‘Unwinding’ Makes Other Public Assistance Harder to Get,” by Katheryn Houghton, Rachana Pradhan, and Samantha Liss.

Joanne Kenen: KFF Health News’ “She Once Advised the President on Aging Issues. Now, She’s Battling Serious Disability and Depression,” by Judith Graham.  

Victoria Knight: Business Insider’s “Washington’s Secret Weapon Is a Beloved Gen Z Energy Drink With More Caffeine Than God,” by Lauren Vespoli.

Sarah Karlin-Smith: ProPublica’s “Insurance Executives Refused to Pay for the Cancer Treatment That Could Have Saved Him. This Is How They Did It,” by Maya Miller and Robin Fields.

Also mentioned in this week’s episode:

• KFF Health News’ “Progressive and Anti-Abortion? New Group Plays Fast and Loose to Make Points,” by Darius Tahir.
• ProPublica’s “Some Republicans Were Willing to Compromise on Abortion Ban Exceptions. Activists Made Sure They Didn’t,” by Kavitha Surana.

click to open the transcript

Transcript: Trump Puts Obamacare Repeal Back on Agenda

KFF Health News’ ‘What the Health?’Episode Title: Trump Puts Obamacare Repeal Back on AgendaEpisode Number: 324Published: Nov. 30, 2023

[Editor’s note: This transcript was generated using both transcription software and a human’s light touch. It has been edited for style and clarity.]

Julie Rovner: Hello, and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Julie Rovner, chief Washington correspondent for KFF Health News, and I’m joined by some of the best and smartest health reporters in Washington. We’re taping this week on Thursday, Nov. 30, at 10 a.m. As always, news happens fast, and things might’ve changed by the time you hear this. So, here we go.

We are joined today via video conference by Sarah Karlin-Smith of the Pink Sheet.

Sarah Karlin-Smith: Hi, Julie.

Rovner: Victoria Knight of Axios News.

Victoria Knight: Hello, everyone.

Rovner: And Joanne Kenen of the Johns Hopkins University and Politico Magazine.

Joanne Kenen: Hi, everybody.

Rovner: Later in this episode we’ll have my interview with my colleague Rachana Pradhan about the latest KFF Health News-NPR “Bill of the Month.” This month’s patient fell into an all-too-common trap of using a lab suggested by her doctor’s office for routine bloodwork without realizing she might be left on the hook for thousands of dollars. But first, this week’s news — and last week’s, too, because we were off.

Because nothing is ever gone for good, the effort to repeal and replace Obamacare is back in the news, and it’s coming primarily from the likely Republican presidential nominee, Donald Trump. Just to remind you, in case you’ve forgotten, Trump, during his presidency, even in the two years that Republicans controlled the House and the Senate, was unable to engineer a repeal of the Affordable Care Act, nor did his administration even manage to unveil an alternative. So what possible reason could he have for thinking that this is going to help him politically now?

Knight: My takeaway is that I think it’s a personal grudge that former President Trump still has, that he failed at this. And I think, when you talk to people, he’s still mad that Sen. John McCain did his famous thumbs-down when the rest of the Republican Party was on board. So I’m not sure that there is much political strategy besides wanting to just make it happen finally, because upset it didn’t happen.

Rovner: Is this part of his revenge tour?

Knight: I mean, I think somewhat. Because if you ask House Freedom Caucus people, they will say, “Yeah, we should repeal it.” But if you ask some more moderate Republican members, they’re like, “We’ve already been through that. We don’t want to do it again.” So I don’t think the Republican Party on the Hill has an appetite to do that, even if Congress goes to Republicans in both chambers.

Kenen: Trump never came up with a health plan and repeal died in the Senate, but remember, it was a struggle to even get anything through the House, and what the House Republicans finally voted for, they didn’t even like. So I don’t know if you call this a revenge tour, but it’s checking a box. But I think it’s important to remember that if you look closely at what Republican policies are, they don’t call it repeal, they don’t say, “We are going to repeal it.” That didn’t go so well for them, and it probably cost them an election.

But they still do have a lot of policy ideas that would water down or de facto repeal many key provisions of Obamacare. So they haven’t tried to go that route, and I’m not sure they would ever try a full-out repeal, but there are lots of other things they could do, some of which would have technical names: community rating and things like that, that voters might not quite understand what they were doing, that could really undermine the protections of Obamacare.

Rovner: Yeah, I mean, I was going to say the Republican Party, in general, this has been the running joke since they started “repeal and replace” in 2010, is that they haven’t had the “replace” part of “repeal and replace” at all. Trump kept saying he was going to have a great plan, it’s coming in two weeks, and, of course, now he’s saying he’s going to have a great plan. We’ve never seen this great plan because the Republicans have never been able to agree on what should come next. Aside from, as Joanne says, tinkering around with the Affordable Care Act.

Kenen: Some of that tinkering would be significant.

Rovner: It could be.

Kenen: I mean there are things that they could tinker that wouldn’t be called repeal, but would actually really make the ACA not work very well.

Rovner: But most of the things that the Republicans wanted to do to the ACA have already been done, like repealing the individual mandate, getting rid of a lot of the industry-specific taxes that they didn’t like.

Kenen: Right. So they ended up getting rid of the spinach and they end up with the stuff that even Republicans, they might not say they like the ACA, but they’re being protected by it. And the individual mandate was the single-most unpopular, contentious part of the law and even a lot of Democrats didn’t like it. And so that target of the animus is gone. So by killing part of it, they also made it harder to do things in the future. They could do damage, though.

Rovner: Yeah. Or they could take on entitlements which, of course, is where the real money is. But we’ll get to that in a minute. Sarah, we have not seen you in a while, so we need to catch up on a bunch of things that are FDA-related. First, a couple of payment items since you were last here. The FDA has, as expected, approved a weight loss version of the diabetes drug Mounjaro that appears to be even more effective than the weight loss version of Ozempic. But insurers are still very reluctant to pay for these drugs, which are not only very expensive, they appear to need to be consumed very long-term, if not forever. Medicare has so far resisted calls to cover the drugs, despite some pressure from members of Congress, but that might be about to change.

Karlin-Smith: I think Medicare is getting a lot of pressure. They’re going to have to probably re-look at it at some point. What I found interesting is recently CMS [the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services] regulates other types of health plans as well, and in the ACA space they seem to be pushing for coverage of these obesity drugs. And I think they’re thinking around that. They note that the non-coverage allowance for these ACA plans was based on … they were following what Medicare was doing and there’s some acknowledgment that maybe the non-Medicare population is different from the Medicare population. But I think it’s also worth thinking about some of their other reasoning for coverage there, including that these drugs are different than some of the older weight loss drugs that provided more minimal weight loss, had worse side effects, and it came at a time when weight loss was seen as more of a cosmetic issue. So if that ACA provision rule goes through, I think that does help the case for people pushing for coverage in Medicare Part D of these drugs.

Rovner: Yeah, I mean this seems to be one of these “between a rock and a hard place” … that the demand for these drugs is huge. The evidence suggests that they work very well and that they work not just to help people lose weight, but perhaps when they lose weight to be less likely to have heart attacks and strokes and all that other stuff that you don’t want people to have. On the other hand, at the moment, they are super expensive and would bankrupt insurance companies and Medicare.

Karlin-Smith: Right. I mean, we’ve seen this before where people worry there’s a new class of expensive drugs that a lot of people seem like they will need and it’s going to bankrupt the country, and oftentimes that doesn’t happen even whether it is, in theory, more coverage to some extent. We saw that with hep C. There was a new class of cholesterol drugs that came out a few years ago that just haven’t taken off in the way people worried they would. Some of these obesity drugs, they do work really well, not everybody really tolerates them as well as you would think. So there’s questions about whether that demand is really there. Sen. [Bill] Cassidy [R-La.] has made some interesting points about “Is there a way to use these drugs initially for people and then come up with something more for weight maintenance that wouldn’t be as expensive?”

Rovner: We should point out that Sen. Cassidy is a medical doctor.

Karlin-Smith: But I think the pressure is coming on the government. Recently, I got to hear the head of OPM [Office of Personnel Management], who deals with the insurance coverage for federal government employees, and they have a really permissible coverage of obesity drugs. Basically, they require all their health insurance plans to cover one of these GLP-1 drugs, and they have some really interesting language I’ve seen used by pharmaceutical companies to say, “Look, this part of the federal government has said obesity is a disease. It needs to be treated,” and so forth. So I don’t think the federal government is going to be able to use this argument of, “This is not a medical condition, and these are expensive, we’re not going to cover it.” But there’s definitely going to be tensions there in terms of costs.

Rovner: Well, definitely more to come here. Meanwhile, CMS is also looking at changing the rules, again, for some pharmacy copay assistance programs, which claim to assist patients but more often seem to enrich drug companies and payers. What is this one about? And can you explain it in English? Because I’m not sure I understand it.

Karlin-Smith: So most people, when you get a prescription for a drug, have some amount of copay, so your insurance company pays the bulk of the cost and you pay maybe $10, $20, $30 when you pick up your prescription. For really high-cost drugs, pharmaceutical companies and sometimes third-party charities often offer copay support, where they will actually pay your copay for you.

The criticism of these charities and pharma support is that it lets the companies keep the prices higher. Because once you take away the patient feeling the burden of the price, they can still keep that higher percentage that goes to your health plan and into your premiums that you don’t think about. And so health insurance companies have said, “OK, well we’re not going to actually count this coupon money towards your copay, your out-of-pocket max for the year, because you’re not actually paying it.”

So that doesn’t end up doing the patient much good in the end because, while you might get the drug for free the first part of the year, eventually you end up having to pay the money. The courts have weighed in, and the latest ruling was that the effect of it was essentially telling CMS, “You need to re-look at your rules. We don’t think your logic is consistent,” and they seem to potentially suggest that CMS should only allow copay accumulators if there’s a cheaper drug a patient could take.

So, basically, they’re saying it’s unfair to put this burden on patients and not let them benefit from the coupons if this is the only drug they can take. But if there’s a generic drug they should be taking, that’s the equivalent then, OK, insurance company, you can penalize them there. But interestingly, CMS has basically pushed back on the court ruling. They’re asking them for basically more information about what they’re exactly directing them to do and signaling that they want to keep their broader interpretation of the law.

It’s a tricky situation, I think, policy-wise, because there’s this tension of, yes, the drug prices are really high. The insurance companies have a point of how these coupons create these perverse incentives in the system, and, on the other hand, the person that gets stuck in the middle, the patient is not really the fair pawn in this game. And when talking about a similar topic with somebody recently, they brought up what happened with surprise billing and they made this parallel of we need to think about it as, OK, you big corporate entities need to figure out how to duke out this problem, but stop putting the patient in the middle because they’re the one that gets hurt. And that’s what happened in surprise billing. I’m not sure if there’s quite that solution of how you could do that in this pharmaceutical space though.

Rovner: I was just going to say that this sounds exactly like surprise billing, but for prescription drugs. Well, while we are talking about Capitol Hill, let’s turn to Capitol Hill, where the big news of the week is that House Republican conservatives, the so-called Freedom Caucus, have apparently agreed to abide by the deal they agreed to abide by earlier this year. At least that’s when it comes to the overall total for the annual spending bills. Then-Speaker [Kevin] McCarthy’s attempt to adhere to that deal is one of the things that led to his ouster. The conservatives had wanted to cut spending much more deeply than the deal that was cut, I think it was in May. Although I feel compelled to add: Cutting the appropriations bills, which is what we’re talking about here, doesn’t really do very much to help the federal budget deficit. Most of the money that the federal government spends doesn’t go through the appropriations process. It’s automatic, like Social Security and Medicare.

But I digress. Victoria, what prompted the Freedom Caucus to change their minds and what does that portend for actually getting some of these spending bills done before the next cutoff deadline, which is mid-January?

Knight: I mean, I think it’s the Freedom Caucus just facing reality and that it’s really hard to do budget cuts, and a lot of these bills, the cuts are very deep. For the Labor-HHS bill, which is the bill that funds the Department of Health and Human Services, the cut is 18%. To the CDC [Centers for Disease Control and Prevention], 12% to the department itself. Those are really big cuts. And all the bills, you look at them, they all have really deep cuts.

The agriculture bill has deep cuts to the Department of Agriculture that some moderate Republicans don’t like. So all of the bills have these issues, and so I think they’re realizing it is just not possible to get what they want. Some of them didn’t vote for the Fiscal Responsibility Act, which was the deal that former Speaker McCarthy did with the debt limit that set funding levels. So they’re not necessarily going back on something that they voted for.

Rovner: They’re going back on something that the House voted for.

Knight: Yeah. So yeah, I think they’re just realizing the appropriations process, it’s difficult to make these deep spending cuts. I’ve also heard rumors that there might still be a big omnibus spending bill in January. Despite all this talk of doing the individual appropriations bills, I’ve heard that it may end up, despite all the efforts of the Republican Caucus, it may end where they have to just do a big bill because this is the easiest thing to do and then move on to the rest of the business of Congress for the next year. So we’ll see if that happens. But I have heard some rumors already swirling around that.

Rovner: I mean the idea they have now “agreed” to a spending limit that should have been done in the budget in April, which would’ve given them several months to work on the appropriations bills coming in under that level. And, of course, now we’re almost three months into the new fiscal year, so I mean they’re going to be late starting next year unless they resolve this pretty soon. But in the meantime, one thing that won’t happen is that we won’t get a big omnibus bill before Christmas because the deadline is now not until January, and that’s important for a bunch of health issues because we have a lot of policies that are going to end at the end of the year. Things like putting off cuts in Medicare payments to doctors, which a lot of people care about, including, obviously, all the doctors. Is there a chance that some of these “extender provisions” will find their way onto something else, maybe the defense authorization bill that I think they do want to finish before Christmas?

Knight: Yeah, I think that’s definitely possible. I’ve also heard they can retroactively do that, so even if they miss the deadline, it will probably be fixed. So it doesn’t seem like too big a worry,

Rovner: Although those doctor cuts, I mean, what happens is that CMS pens the claims, they don’t pay the claims until it’s been fixed retroactively. They have done it before, it’s a mess.

Kenen: And it’s bad for the doctors because they don’t get paid. It takes even longer to get paid because they’re put in a hold pile, which gets rather large.

Rovner: It does. Not that the defense bill doesn’t have its own issues around defense, but while we’re on the subject of defense, it looks like Alabama Republican Sen. Tommy Tuberville might be ready to throw in the towel now on the more than 400 military promotions he’s been blocking to protest the Biden administration’s policy allowing members of active-duty military and their dependents to travel to other states for an abortion if it’s banned where they are stationed. This has been going on since February. My impression is that it’s his fellow Republicans who are getting worried about this.

Kenen: Yeah. They’re as fed up as the Democrats are now. Not 100% of them are, but there’s a number who’ve come out in public and basically told him to cut it out. And then there are others who aren’t saying it in public, but there are clearly signs that they’re not crazy about this either. But we keep hearing it’s about to break. We’ve been hearing for several weeks it’s about to be resolved, and until it’s resolved, it’s not resolved. So I think clearly there’s movement because the pressure has ramped up from his fellow Republicans.

Rovner: Well, to get really technical, I think that the Senate Rules Committee passed a resolution that could get around this whole thing-

Kenen: But they don’t really want to, I mean the Republicans would rather not confront him through a vote. They’d rather just stare him down and get him to pretend that he won and move on. And that’s what we’re waiting to see. Is it a formal action by the Senate or is there some negotiated way to move forward with at least a large number of these held-up nominations.

Rovner: It’s the George Santos-Bob Menendez health issue. In other words, they would like him to step down himself rather than have to vote to take it down, but they would definitely like him to back off.

Kenen: I mean, not confusing anybody but they’re not talking about expelling her from the Senate. They’re [inaudible] talking about “Cut this out and let these people get their promotions,” because some of them are very serious. These are major positions that are unfilled.

Rovner: Yes, I mean it’s backing up the entire military system because people can’t move on to where they’re supposed to go and the people who are going to take their place can’t move on to where they’re supposed to go, and it’s not great for the Department of Defense. All right, well, while we are on the subject of abortion, at least tangentially, the Texas Supreme Court this week heard that case filed by women who had serious pregnancy complications for which they were unable to get medical care because their doctors were afraid that Texas’ abortion ban would be used to take their medical licenses and/or put them in jail.

Kenen: For 99 years!

Rovner: Yeah, the Texas officials defending against the lawsuit say the women shouldn’t be suing the state. They should be suing their doctors. So what do we expect to happen here? This hearing isn’t even really on the merits. It’s just on whether the exceptions the lower court came up with will be allowed to take effect, which at the moment they’re not.

Kenen: The exception-by-exception policy, where things get written in, is problematic because it’s hard to write a law allowing every possible medical situation that could arise and then that would open it to all other litigation because people would disagree about is this close to death or not? So the plaintiffs want a broader, clearer exception where it’s up to the doctors to do what they think is correct for their patients’ health, all sorts of things can go wrong with people’s bodies.

It’s hard to legislate, which is OK and which isn’t. So the idea of suing your doctor, I mean, that’s just not going to go anywhere. I mean, the court is either going to clarify it or not clarify it. Either way, it’ll get appealed. These issues are not going away. There’s many, many, many documented cases of people not being able to get standard of care. Pregnancy complications are rare, but they’re serious and the state legislatures have been really resistant so far to broadening these exemptions.

Rovner: It’s not just Texas. ProPublica published an investigation this week that found that none of the dozen states with the strictest abortion bans broadened exceptions even after women and their doctors complained that they were being put at grave risk, as Joanne just pointed out. When we look at elections and polls, it feels like the abortion rights side very much has the upper hand, but the reverse seems to be the case in actual state legislatures. I mean, it looks like the anti-abortion forces who want as few exceptions as possible are still getting their way. At least that’s what ProPublica found.

Kenen: Right. One of the other points that the ProPublica piece made was many of these laws were trigger laws. They were written before Roe was toppled. They were written as just in case, if the Supreme Court lets us do this, we’ll do it. So they were symbolic and they were not necessarily written with a lot of medical input. And they were written by activists, not physicians or obstetricians.

And the resistance to changing them is coming from the same interest groups that want no abortions, who say it’s just not ever medically necessary or so rarely medically necessary, and it is medically necessary at times. I mean, there are people who, and this line saying, “Well, if you’re in trouble, you can’t have an abortion. But if you’re close to death you can,” that can happen in split seconds. You can be in trouble and then really be in real trouble. You can’t predict the course of an individual, and it’s tying the hands for physicians to do what needs to be done until it might be too late.

Knight: I think a lot of them don’t realize, until it starts happening, how many times it is sometimes medically necessary. It’s not even that a woman necessarily wants to get an abortion, it’s just something happens, and it’s safer for her to do that in order to save her life.

Karlin-Smith: And you’ve seen in some of these states, sometimes Republican women prominently coming out and pushing for this and trying to explain why it’s necessary. In some cases, they also have made the argument, too, that sometimes to preserve a woman’s fertility, these procedures are necessary given the current situations they face.

Kenen: There was a quote in that ProPublica story, and it’s not necessarily everybody on the anti-abortion rights side, but this individual was quoted as saying that the baby’s life is more important than the mother’s life. So that’s a judgment that a politician or activist is making. Plus, if the mother dies, the fetus can die too. So it doesn’t even make sense. It’s not even choosing one. I mean, in many cases if the pregnant person dies, the fetus will die.

Rovner: Well, finally this week, I want to give a shout-out to a story by my KFF Health News colleague Darius Tahir, who, by the way, became a father this week. Congratulations, Darius. The story’s about a group called the Progressive Anti-Abortion Uprising that purports to be both anti-abortion and progressively leftist and feminist. One of its goals appears to be to get courts to overturn the federal law that restricts protests in front of abortion clinics. The Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances Act, known as FACE, is I think the only explicitly abortion rights legislation that became law in the entire 1990s, which makes you wonder if this group is really as leftist and feminist as it says it is, or if it’s just a front to try and go after this particular law.

Kenen: It sets limits of where people can be and tries to police it somewhat. But in Darius’ story, his reporting showed that they did, at least some of them, had ties to right-wing groups. So that they’re calling themselves leftist and progressive … it’s not so clear how accurate that is for everybody involved.

Rovner: Yeah, it was an interesting story that we will link to in the show notes. All right, now it is time for “This Week in Health Misinformation,” and it’s good news for a change. I chose a story from Stat News called “How to Spot When Drug Companies Spin Clinical Trial Results.” It’s actually an update of a 2020 guide that STAT did to interpret clinical trial results, and it’s basically a glossary to help understand company jargon and red flags, particularly in press releases, to help determine if that new medical “breakthrough” really is or not. It is really super helpful if you’re a layperson trying to make sense of this.

OK that is this week’s news, and I now will play my “Bill of the Month” interview with Rachana Pradhan, and then we will come back with our extra credits.

I am pleased to welcome back to the podcast my colleague Rachana Pradhan, who reported and wrote the latest KFF Health News-NPR “Bill of the Month” installment. Always great to see you, Rachana.

Rachana Pradhan: Thanks for having me, Julie.

Rovner: So this month’s patient fell into what’s an all-too-common trap. She went to a lab for routine bloodwork suggested by her doctor without realizing she could be subjected to thousands of dollars in bills she’s expected to pay. Tell us who she is and how she managed to rack up such a big bill for things that should not have cost that much.

Pradhan: So our patient is Reesha Ahmed. She lives in Texas, just in a suburb of the Dallas-Fort Worth area, and what happened to Reesha is she found out she was pregnant and she went to a doctor’s office that she had never gone to before for a standard prenatal checkup, and she also had health insurance. I want to underscore that that is an important detail in this story. So the nurse recommended that Reesha get routine blood tests just down the hall in a lab that was in the adjoining hospital. And it was routine. There was nothing unusual about the blood tests that Reesha received. So what she was advised to do is after her checkup, she was told, “Well, here’s the bloodwork you need, and just go down the hallway here, into the hospital,” to get her blood drawn.

Rovner: How convenient, they have their own lab.

Pradhan: Exactly. And Reesha did what she was told. She got bloodwork done. And then, soon after that, she started getting bills. And they first were small amounts, like there was a bill for $17, and she thought, “OK, well that’s not so bad.” Then she got a bill for over $300 and thought, “That’s unusual. Why would I get billed this?” Then came the huge one. It was over $2,000. In total, Reesha’s overall lab work bills were close to $2,400 for, again, standard bloodwork that every pregnant woman gets when they find out that they’re pregnant. And so she, needless to say, was shocked and immediately actually started trying to investigate herself as to how it was possible for her to get billed such astronomical amounts.

Rovner: And so what did she manage to find out?

Pradhan: She tried taking it up with the hospital and her insurance company. And she just got passed around over and over again. She appealed to her insurance. They denied her appeal saying that, “Well, this bloodwork was diagnostic and not preventive, so it was coded correctly based on the claim that was submitted to us,” and the hospital even sent her to collections for this bloodwork. Unfortunately for Reesha, this pregnancy ended in a miscarriage, and so it was particularly difficult. She was dealing with all the emotional, physical ramifications of that, and then on top of that, having to deal with this billing nightmare is just a lot for any one person to handle. It’s too much, honestly.

Rovner: So we, the experts in this, what did we discover about why she got billed so much?

Pradhan: You can get bloodwork at multiple places in our health system. You could get it maybe within a lab just in your doctor’s office. You can go to an outside lab, like an independent commercial one, to get bloodwork done and you can sometimes get labs within a hospital building. They may not look any different when you’re actually in there, but there’s a huge difference as to how much they will charge you.

Research has shown that if a patient is getting blood tests done, things that are relatively routine and just as a standalone service, hospital outpatient department labs charge much, much more. There’s research that we cite in the story about Reesha that … she lives in Texas … bloodwork in Texas, if it’s done in a hospital outpatient department is at least six times as expensive compared to if you get those same tests in a doctor’s office or in an independent commercial lab.

Rovner: To be clear, I would say it’s not just bloodwork. It’s any routine tests that you get in a hospital outpatient department.

Pradhan: That research, in particular, was looking at blood tests actually, in particular, just any lab work that you might get done. So the conclusion of that is really that there’s no meaningful quality difference. There’s really no difference at all when you get them in a doctor’s office versus a hospital or a lab, and yet the prices you pay will vary dramatically.

Rovner: Yeah, there should be a big sign on the door that says: “This may be more convenient, but if you go somewhere else, you might pay a lot less and so will your insurance.” What eventually happened with Reesha’s bill?

Pradhan: Well, eventually, the charges were waived and zeroed out and she was told that she would not have to pay anything and all the accounts would be zeroed out to nothing.

Rovner: Eventually, after we started asking questions?

Pradhan: Yes. It was a day after I had sent a litany of questions about her billing that they gave her a call and said, “You now won’t have to pay anything.” So it’s a big relief for her.

Rovner: Obviously this was not her fault. She did what was recommended by the nurse in her doctor’s office, but there are efforts to make this more transparent.

Pradhan: Yeah. I think in health care policy world, the issue that she experienced is a reflection of something called site-neutral payment, which essentially means if payment is site-neutral for a health care provider, it means that you get a service and regardless of where you get that service, there is no difference in the amount that you are paying. There are efforts in Congress and even in state legislatures to institute site-neutral pay for certain services.

Bloodwork is one that is not necessarily being targeted, at least in Congress. But I will say, I think one of the big takeaways about what patients can do is if they do get paperwork from your doctor’s office saying, “OK, you need to get some blood tests done,” you can always take that bloodwork request and get it done at an independent lab where the charges will be far, far less than in a hospital-based lab, to avoid these charges.

Rovner: Think of it like a prescription.

Pradhan: Exactly. It might not be as convenient in that moment. You might have to drive somewhere, you can’t just walk down a hallway and get your blood tests and labs done, but I think you will potentially avoid exorbitant costs, especially for bloodwork that is very standard and is not costly.

Rovner: Yet another cautionary tale. Rachana Pradhan, thank you very much.

Pradhan: Thanks for having me, Julie.

Rovner: OK. We are back and it’s time for our extra-credit segment. That’s when we each recommend a story we read this week we think you should read, too. As always, don’t worry if you miss it. We will post the links on the podcast page at kffhealthnews.org and in our show notes on your phone or other mobile device. Sarah, you offered up the first extra credit this week. Why don’t you go first?

Karlin-Smith: Sure. I took a look at a ProPublica piece by Maya Miller and Robin Fields, “Insurance Executives Refused to Pay for the Cancer Treatment That Could Have Saved Him. This Is How They Did It.” And it tells the story of a Michigan man who had cancer, and the last resort treatment for him was CAR-T, which is a cellular therapy where they basically take some of your cells, reengineer them, and put them back into your body, and it is quite expensive and it can come with a lot of expensive side effects as well.

FDA considers it a drug, and Michigan state law requires cancer drugs be covered. The insurance company of this man, basically on a technicality, denied it, describing it as a gene therapy, and he did die before he was able to fully push this battle with the insurance company and get access to the treatment and so forth. But I think the piece raises these broader issues about [how] few states are able to proactively monitor whether insurance plans are properly implementing the laws around what is supposed to be covered and not covered.

Few people really have the knowledge or skill set, particularly when you’re dealing with devastating diseases like cancer, which are just taking all of your energy just to go through the treatment, to figure out how to fight the system. And it really demonstrates the huge power imbalances people face in getting health care, even if there are laws that, in theory, seem like they’re supposed to be protected.

I also thought there’s some really interesting statistics in the story about, yes, even though the price tag for these products are really expensive, that the health insurance company actually crunched the numbers and found that if they shifted the cost to premiums in their policyholders, it would lead to, like, 17 cents a month per premium. So I thought that was interesting, as well, because it gives you a sense of, again, where their motivation is coming from when you boil it down to how the costs actually add up.

Rovner: And we will, I promise, talk about the growing backlash against insurance company behavior next week. Victoria.

Knight: So my extra-credit article is a Business Insider story in which I’m quoted, but the title is “Washington’s Secret Weapon Is a Beloved Gen Z Energy Drink With More Caffeine Than God.” And it basically talks about the phenomenon of Celsius popping up around the Hill. So it’s an energy drink that contains 200 milligrams of caffeine. It tastes like sparkling water, it’s fruity, but it’s not like Monster or Red Bull. It tastes way better than them, which I think is partly why it’s become so popular.

But anyways, I’ve only been on the Hill reporting for about a year and in the past couple months it has really popped up everywhere. It’s all around in the different little stores within the Capitol complex, there’s machines devoted to it. So it talks about how that happened. And I personally drink almost one Celsius a day. I’m trying to be better about it, but the Hill is a hard place to work, and you’re running around all the time, and it just gets you as much caffeine as you need in a quick hit. But the FDA does recommend about 400 milligrams a day. So if you drink two, then you’re not going over the recommendation.

Rovner: Well, you can’t drink anything else with caffeine if you drink two.

Knight: That’s true. And I do drink coffee in the morning, but it has some funny quotes to our members of Congress and chiefs of staff and reporters about how we all rely on this energy drink to get through working on the Hill.

Rovner: I just loved this story because, forever, people wonder how these things happen in the middle of the night. It’s not the members, it’s the staff who are going 16 and 20 hours a day, and they’ve always had to rely on something. So, at least now, it’s something that tastes better.

Knight: It does taste better.

Rovner: That’s why it amused me, because it’s been ever thus that you cannot work the way Capitol Hill works without some artificial help, shall we say. Joanne.

Kenen: We used to just count how many pizza boxes were being delivered to know how long a night it was going to be. I guess now you count how many empty cans of Celsius.

Knight: Exactly.

Rovner: I personally ran more on sugar than caffeine.

Kenen: OK. This is a piece by Judy Graham of KFF Health News, and the headline is “A Life-Changing Injury Transformed an Expert’s View on Disability Services.” And it’s about a woman many of us know, actually Julie and I both know: Nora Super. I’ve known her for a long time. She’s an expert on aging. She ran one of the White House aging conferences. She worked at Milken for a long time. She worked at AARP for a while.

She’s in her late 50s now, and in midlife, she started having really severe episodes of depression, and she became very open about it, she became an advocate. Last summer, she had another episode and she couldn’t get an appointment for the treatment she needed quickly enough. And while she was waiting, which is the story of American health care right now, and while she was waiting for it, she did try to take her own life. She survived, but she now has no sensation from the waist down.

And her husband is a health economist, and I should disclose, my former boss at one point, I worked for and with Len for two years, Len Nichols. So this is a story about how she has now become an advocate for disability. And this is a couple with a lot of resources. I mean both knowledge, connections, and they’re not gazillionaires, but they have resources, and how hard it has been for them even with their resources and connections. And so now Nora who, when she’s well, she’s this effervescent force of nature, and this is how she is turning — her prognosis, it could get better, they don’t know yet — but clearly an extraordinarily difficult time. And she has now taken this opportunity to become not just an advocate for the aging and not just an advocate for people with severe depression, but now an advocate for people with severe disability.

Rovner: Yeah, I mean, it’s everything that’s wrong with the American health care system, and I will say that a lot of what I’ve learned about health policy over very many years came from both Len Nichols and Nora, his wife. So they do know a lot. And I think what shocked me about the story is just how expensive some of the things are that they need. And, again, this is a couple who should be well enough off to support themselves, but these are costs that basically nobody could or should have to bear.

Kenen: Even … it was just a lift to get her into their car, just that alone was $6,500. And there are many, many, many things like that. And then another thing that they pointed out in the article is that most physicians don’t have a way of getting somebody from a wheelchair onto the examining table other than having her 70-year-old husband hoist her. So that was one of the many small revelations in this story. Obviously, it’s heartbreaking because I know and like her, but it’s also another indictment of why we just don’t do things right.

Rovner: Yes. Where we are. Well, my story is yet another indictment of not doing things right. It’s by my colleagues Katheryn Houghton, Rachana Pradhan, who you just heard, and Samantha Liss, and it’s called “Medicaid ‘Unwinding’ Makes Other Public Assistance Harder to Get.” And it’s just an infuriating story pointing out that everything we’ve talked about all year with state reviews of Medicaid eligibility, the endless waits on hold with call centers, lost applications, and other bureaucratic holdups, goes for more than just health insurance. The same overworked and under-resourced people who determine Medicaid eligibility are also the gatekeepers for other programs like food stamps and cash welfare assistance, and people who are eligible for those programs are also getting wrongly denied benefits.

Among the people quoted in the story was DeAnna Marchand of Missoula, Montana, who is trying to recertify herself and her grandson for both Medicaid and SNAP (food stamps), but wasn’t sure what she needed to present to prove that eligibility. So she waited to speak to someone and picking up from the story, “After half an hour, she followed prompts to schedule a callback, but an automated voice announced slots were full and instructed her to wait on hold again. An hour later, the call was dropped.” It’s not really the fault of these workers. They cannot possibly do what needs to be done, and, once again, it’s the patients who are paying the price.

All right, that is our show. As always, if you enjoy the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left us a review; that helps other people find us, too. Special thanks this week to Zach Dyer for filling in as our technical guru while Francis [Ying] takes some much-deserved time off. Also, as always, you can email us your questions or comments. We are at whatthehealth@kff.org. Or you can still find me at X, for now, @jrovner, or @julierovner at Bluesky and Threads. Joanne.

Kenen: I’m mostly at Threads, @joannekenen1. Occasionally I’m still on X, but not very often, that’s @JoanneKenen.

Rovner: Sarah.

Karlin-Smith: I am @SarahKarlin, or @sarahkarlin-smith, depending on the platform.

Rovner: Victoria.

Knight: I am @victoriaregisk [on X and Threads]. Still mostly on X, but also on Threads at the same name.

Rovner: We’re all trying to branch out. We will be back in your feed next week. Until then, be healthy.

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Julie Rovner is chief Washington correspondent and host of KFF Health News’ weekly health policy news podcast, “What the Health?” A noted expert on health policy issues, Julie is the author of the critically praised reference book “Health Care Politics and Policy A to Z,” now in its third edition.

Supporters of abortion rights again scored big at the polls in several states’ off-year elections Nov. 7, including in some Republican-dominated states like Ohio and Kentucky. The biggest prize came in Ohio, where voters approved a ballot measure writing the right to an abortion into the state constitution, despite strong opposition from the governor and other top elected state officials.

Meanwhile, the Senate approved the nomination of Monica Bertagnolli to become the new director of the National Institutes of Health by a bipartisan 62-36 vote. Bertagnolli — previously director of the National Cancer Institute, a large NIH component — had seen her nomination held up for weeks by Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) over a mostly unrelated fight with the Biden administration about prescription drug prices.

This week’s panelists are Julie Rovner of KFF Health News, Tami Luhby of CNN, Alice Miranda Ollstein of Politico, and Sandhya Raman of CQ Roll.

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Tami Luhby
CNN

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Alice Miranda Ollstein
Politico

@AliceOllstein

Read Alice's stories

Sandhya Raman
CQ Roll Call

@SandhyaWrites

Read Sandhya's stories

Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:

• Election night 2023 was a very good night for abortion rights supporters generally and, specifically, in Ohio, Kentucky, Virginia, Pennsylvania, and New Jersey. Republican governors and state leaders invested significant political capital to defeat abortion rights ballot questions and candidates, and lost. Some anti-abortion leaders’ embrace of a 15-week abortion ban as a potential compromise didn’t seem to help their cause.
• Abortion rights supporters’ winning streak raises a broader point about ballot initiatives. State legislatures in some red-leaning states have not only enacted abortion restrictions but also fought off Democratic-backed issues like Medicaid expansion only to have the state’s voters reverse them through ballot questions. As a result, conservative leaders are pushing states to make it harder to get referendums on state ballots.
• On Capitol Hill, lawmakers are once again facing a potential government shutdown Nov. 17, with the expiration of the last “continuing resolution” to keep government spending going. But House Republicans are not making much progress on passing individual spending bills, as several measures have been pulled from the House floor because they lacked the votes to pass.
• The Federal Trade Commission this week announced it is challenging more than 100 patents on brand-name medicines. Although mind-numbingly complex, the action, which could open the door to more generic options for some commonly used medicines such as asthma inhalers, could lead to lowering drug costs.
• “This Week in Medical Misinformation” highlights a study from the Ohio State University that found much of the information available to gynecologic cancer patients on TikTok is inaccurate or of little value.

Also this week, Rovner interviews KFF Health News’s Julie Appleby, who reported and wrote the latest “Bill of the Month” feature, about a woman who got billed for what should have been a no-cost physical exam. If you have an outrageous or baffling medical bill you’d like to share with us, you can do that here.

Plus, for “extra credit,” the panelists suggest health policy stories they read this week that they think you should read, too:

Julie Rovner: ProPublica’s “Find Out Why Your Health Insurer Denied Your Claim.”

Alice Miranda Ollstein: Politico’s “Congenital Syphilis Jumped Tenfold Over the Last Decade,” by Alice Miranda Ollstein.

Sandhya Raman: The Texas Tribune’s “Sex Trafficking, Drugs and Assault: Texas Foster Kids and Caseworkers Face Chaos in Rental Houses and Hotels,” by Karen Brooks Harper.

Tami Luhby: ProPublica’s “Big Insurance Met Its Match When It Turned Down a Top Trial Lawyer’s Request for Cancer Treatment,” by T. Christian Miller.

Also mentioned in this week’s episode:

The Journal of Gynecologic Oncology’s “‘More Than a Song and Dance’: Exploration of Patient Perspectives and Educational Quality of Gynecologic Cancer Content on TikTok,” by Molly Morton et al.

Click to open the transcript

Transcript: A Very Good Night for Abortion Rights Backers

[Editor’s note: This transcript was generated using both transcription software and a human’s light touch. It has been edited for style and clarity.]

Julie Rovner: Hello, and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Julie Rovner, chief Washington correspondent for KFF Health News, and I’m joined by some of the best and smartest health reporters in Washington. We’re taping this week on Thursday, Nov. 9, at 10 a.m. As always, news happens fast, and things might’ve changed by the time you hear this. So, here we go. We are joined today via video conference by Alice Miranda Ollstein of Politico.

Alice Miranda Ollstein: Good morning.

Rovner: Tami Luhby of CNN.

Tami Luhby: Hello.

Rovner: And Sandhya Raman of CQ Roll Call.

Sandhya Raman: Hello, everyone.

Rovner: Later in this episode, we’ll have my interview with my colleague Julie Appleby, who wrote the latest KFF Health News-NPR “Bill of the Month.” This month’s patient had a very small bill, but it violated an important principle. But first, this week’s news, and there is more than enough.

Election night 2023 has come and gone, and it was a very good night for abortion rights supporters in Ohio, Kentucky, Virginia, Pennsylvania, and New Jersey. Alice, catch us up here.

Ollstein: Yeah, so this was a really striking example that I think undermined some of the talking points from the anti-abortion side after the 2022 midterms, where they also did worse than they expected. The narrative after that was that they lose when Republican candidates shy away from the abortion issue and don’t forcefully campaign on it. And the results this week sort of undermined that because, in Ohio, the Republican state officials went all in. I was at rallies where they were speaking, they cut ads saying, “Vote no on this abortion rights amendment.” They really put political capital into it.

An even stronger example is in Virginia, where Gov. Glenn Youngkin went all in on promoting his 15-week ban, wanting to flip the state legislature in order to advance that. He put a lot of his own money into this, et cetera. And it just …

Rovner: And the state legislature did flip, just not his way.

Ollstein: Exactly. It flipped the other way. So it really flopped in both places. And so now you have another round of finger-pointing on the right and disagreements over why they lost and what they need to do better. And so you have some people staying on that same narrative from last year saying, “Oh, they need to campaign even harder on restricting abortion.” And then you have other people saying, “Look, this is clearly a loser for us. We need to talk about other topics.”

But what was really striking, you mentioned New Jersey, and that’s sort of a counter-example because there, the Republican candidates tried to sidestep the abortion issue and say, “Look, this is settled. Abortion is legal in our state. This is not something we’re going to touch.” And they still lost. So it’s like, they lose on abortion when they campaign hard on it, they lose on abortion when they don’t campaign hard on it. And you have people arguing over what sort of magic words to use to connect with voters, but it really seems that it’s not really about the words; it’s about the policy itself.

Rovner: I want to dig a little harder into the whole 15-week-ban thing, and in Ohio it was just a straight up or down, are we going to enshrine abortion rights in the state constitution? And voters said yes, which did surprise a lot of people in a red state, although it’s, what, the fifth red state to do this?

But in Virginia, it was a little more subtle. The governor was trying to push a 15-week and they were calling it a limit, not a ban. And that’s apparently been the talking point for national Republicans, too, on federal, that this could be a compromise to have only a 15-week limit. Not working so well, right?

Ollstein: That’s right. I mean, that goes to what I was saying about you can sort of rebrand all you want. There’s been talk about rebranding “ban” to “limit.” There’s been talking about rebranding the term “pro-life,” but, ultimately, because of the events of the last several years, people associate Republicans with wanting to ban abortion. And that’s true whether it’s a total ban or a 15-week ban. It’s true whether you call it a ban or a limit or a restriction or whatever. And, like I said, it’s true when Republicans talk about it and when they don’t talk about it.

Most people, the country is still quite divided on this, but most people, a majority, enough to sway these elections, are saying that they would rather not have these kinds of imposed restrictions. And that’s really been galvanized by the overturning of Roe [v. Wade]. A lot of people were bringing up what Justice [Samuel] Alito wrote in his opinion overturning Roe saying, “Women are not without political power.” And people are saying, “Hey, look, that’s quite true. Thank you, Justice Alito.”

Rovner: So the other big political event obviously this week was the third Republican presidential candidate debate, this time with only five candidates on the stage, none of them named Trump.

As popular as abortion is turning out to be as a voting issue, President [Joe] Biden is not popular. In fact, I’ve seen many, many of these charts that showed that support for abortion rights is running 10 or 15 points better than President Biden. So these Republicans, who are hoping that something happens to Donald Trump, did finally talk about abortion, and most of them still seem to be in the “I’m proudly pro-life” stage. I mean, is there any way to walk this tightrope for them?

Ollstein: I think what was fascinating about the debate was you’re not really seeing a shift in reaction to this electoral shellacking that they got. The candidates who were for national bans and restrictions are still for national bans and restrictions. The candidates who want the states to decide say, “I want the states to decide.”

And it’s interesting that Nikki Haley is getting a lot of praise for her position, which she came out and said, “Yes, I’ll sign whatever Congress is able to pass that restricts abortion, but we should be upfront with voters and say that it is highly unlikely that anything will be able to pass the Senate.” It’s interesting that that seems to be appealing to people because …

Rovner: It’s true.

Ollstein: It is true, but it pisses off multiple groups. Democrats are zeroing in and hammering her on saying, “I will sign whatever ban Congress is able to pass” as evidence that she is still a threat to abortion access. Meanwhile, folks on the right, conservatives, anti-abortion people, they want her to champion a ban. They don’t want her to sort of downplay its likelihood. They want her to say, “Look, this might be very hard to get done, but I will be your champion for it.” And so she’s sort of not appealing to the left or the right with that stance, but it seems like there are some she is appealing to.

Rovner: Yeah. If anybody has ever succeeded in straddling the middle, she’s certainly making the effort.

I want to go back to the states for a minute. I think it was in your story that I read that one of the anti-abortion groups was talking about “the tyranny of the majority,” which took me a minute to think about, trying to get some of these states that could still put abortion constitutional amendments on their ballots, trying to get that stopped. Is that basically the next battleground we’re going to see?

Ollstein: Oh, yes. And it’s already started, but what really struck me is how open they’re being about it. So over the past year, a lot of states have quietly moved with legislation and through other means to try to make it harder or impossible to put an up-or-down question about abortion before voters, raising the threshold, raising the signature limit, mandating that people get signatures from this many counties and this and that and the other thing, making it more difficult. Mississippi is trying to make a carve-out so you can do a ballot measure on anything but abortion. We’ll see where that goes.

And so this has been going on, but the statements after Tuesday’s election from anti-abortion groups openly saying, “This is the tyranny of the majority and the human rights of babies should not be subject to a popular vote,” just completely going down this anti-Democratic road and being explicit about it. So I think it’s definitely something to keep an eye on.

Luhby: And this started with expanding Medicaid also because there’ve been multiple states now that have expanded Medicaid through ballot measures, multiple red states, and several states, including states that eventually passed that, have been trying to limit the ability of voters to pass it.

Rovner: Yes, we’ve got all these sort of Republican-dominated legislatures, but when the voters actually go to these single topics, they don’t necessarily agree with the legislators that they have elected.

Raman: Last year, one of the ones that abortion rights supporters had really championed was Michigan as the first citizen-led constitutional amendment to codify abortion rights. And then this week, we had a lawsuit brought against to invalidate that passing last year, and it’s unclear how that’ll go and play out in the courts, but it really seems like they’ve been slowly ramping up the strategies to see what sticks to be able to claw back some of this stuff.

Rovner: They, the anti-abortion force.

Raman: Yes, yes. And I was also going to say that when we’re talking about Mississippi, that is probably one of the one places where I think abortion opponents really had their win in that we had Lynn Fitch, their attorney general, who was the one that litigated the Dobbs decision that is making this such a big topic now, who pretty handily won reelection. And her opponent was pretty vocally an abortion rights supporter, Greta Kemp Martin. So that is one …

Rovner: The Republican governor also won in Mississippi.

Raman: Yes, yeah.

Rovner: It kind of prevented it from being a clean sweep for Democrats.

All right, well, I want to go back to the debate for a minute because they also talked mostly about foreign policy, but they did talk about entitlement reform, which had not come up, I don’t think, before. Talk about trying to straddle the middle. Here, Donald Trump has come out and vowed not to cut Social Security and Medicare, and yet we know that both programs need to have some kind of change or else they’re going to run out of money.

So how are these candidates trying to separate themselves on this thorny problem, Tami? They all seemed to say as much as they could without really saying anything.

Luhby: Exactly. I’m not sure there’s a lot of separation there, other than just saying, “We’ll look at it and we’ll see it.” But I mean, to some extent they’re right. The moderators were really trying to press them on what’s the age? What are you going to raise the age to? It’s now, the full retirement age is being ramped up to 67. The early retirement age has stayed at 62, and the moderators were like … they wanted a number.

And the candidates were sort of right in saying that they can’t just give a number because there are multiple things that can be done. I mean, a little bit more than I think what Nikki Haley said, or one of them had said it was three things that can be done. There’s more levers than that, but the age will ultimately depend on what they do with the formula, what they do with COLA, what they do with taxes. So there’s multiple things that can be done.

But what is definitely true is you can’t say that discussions are off the table because, according to the latest Trustees Report, Social Security will not be able to pay full benefits after 2034. At that time, it’ll only be able to pay about 80%. Medicare Part A can only pay full-schedule benefits till 2031. After that, it’ll only be able to cover 89%. And the new [House] speaker, Mike Johnson, has called for a debt commission and he says he wants to address Medicare and Social Security’s insolvency as part of the debt commission, which has really scared a lot of Social Security and Medicare advocates because of his Republican Study Committee background.

Rovner: Of actually wanting to cut Social Security and Medicare.

Luhby: Right. And do a lot of the things, although not raise taxes, but do a lot of things that the advocates don’t like. But yeah, there wasn’t really a lot to take away from the debate on Social Security and Medicare, other than them saying they wanted to do something, which they need to do.

Rovner: I was amused, though, that Nikki Haley said she wanted to expand Medicare Advantage without pointing out that Medicare … as if that was a way to save money because, as we’ve talked about many, many, many times, Medicare Advantage actually costs more than traditional Medicare at the moment. That’s one of the things that’s hastening the demise of Medicare’s trust fund in other places.

While we are on the subject of Washington and spending, we have yet another funding deadline coming up, this one Nov. 17, which is a week from Friday. We’ll obviously talk more about this next week, but Sandhya, how is it looking to keep the lights on?

Raman: I think we could just put a big question mark and that would be evergreen, but we’re still not close to a consensus, either short-term or long-term. So ideally, in the next several days, we’re going to get some sort of short-term selection, solution, and that it would get the votes. And those are big maybes.

Speaker Mike Johnson has said that he would come up with kind of a stopgap plan by the weekend, but this is all allegedly, and if that is something that would also be appeasable to the senators. And so a lot of that is still a question mark, but the House is still going ahead on trying to get HHS funding. So they recently released a revised version of their Labor, HHS, and Education bill. It’s still all the same topline spending, but it has additional …

Rovner: Which is lower than was agreed to. Right?

Raman: Yes, yeah.

Rovner: I mean, this bill’s having trouble … because of the magnitude of the cuts that it would make.

Raman: Yeah. They didn’t do any additional cuts to that, but they did add several more social policy riders. So the revised version would prevent funding from going to a hospital that requires abortion training or funding from athletic programs in schools that allow trans children to participate, which is something the House has passed legislation on earlier this year, calls for barring … calling for a public health emergency related to guns, a lot of just social issues that they’ve been messaging on.

So if this were to pass, this is also going to make it even more difficult to come to an agreement with the Senate. So the next thing to watch is that Monday, the House Rules Committee is going to meet and see the path to get it to the floor. And then even there, if it gets past the Rules Committee, it’s a will-or-will-not pass there. Because if you look at some of the other spending bills that have been going through, a lot of them have been getting pulled or not getting votes or getting pulled and repulled and all sorts of things.

Rovner: Pulled from the House floor?

Raman: Yes.

Rovner: Pulled like … they put them on the House floor and they don’t have the votes and they say, “Oops,” so they pull them back.

Raman: Yeah. So it’s all very tenuous. And I think one other interesting thing is that we didn’t have a full committee markup of this bill, which is something that the House has traditionally done and the Senate has not done in a few years. But the Senate did have their full markup. They did have a bipartisan consensus on it. And so we’ve kind of flipped roles, at least for now, in terms of how the regular order of Congress is going.

Rovner: Yeah, that’s right. Again, because the cuts were so big that the HHS bill couldn’t get through the Appropriations Committee.

Raman: Yeah. A lot of this is to be determined in the next few days.

Rovner: And this whole “laddered CR” that the speaker was talking about that nobody seems to quite understand except it would create different deadlines for different programs, that doesn’t seem to be on the table anymore or is it?

Raman: It also further complicates something that when they all have the same deadline, we’re still already struggling to get that done. So changing the dates is going to make it even more complicated to get to that point, but so much has really been in flux that I don’t think that that’s really on the table right now.

Rovner: Maybe he was hoping that having a partial shutdown would not be as disruptive or look as bad as having a full shutdown. I mean, I kept trying to figure out why he would try to do this because it just seemed, as you say, way more complicated.

Raman: If you look at the letter that he sent to other members of the House before he was elected as speaker, he did have a plan of outlining when he intends to get various bills done. And if you look at Labor, HHS, and Education, that one was one of the later ones kind of pegged to getting a deal for fiscal 2024 in April or so as the deadline, versus we’re still in November and the deadline was technically the end of September. There’s so many loose-hanging threads that hopefully they will come together with some sort of short-term solution over the next few days.

Rovner: They will, obviously, we shall see. Well, the House, as we say, is not getting a lot done, but the Senate is sort of.

The National Institutes of Health has a new director, former Cancer Institute director Monica Bertagnolli, whose nomination was approved on a bipartisan vote of 62 to 36 after being held up for months by Democrats who were upset that she wouldn’t, in the words of Senate Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions Committee Chairman Bernie Sanders, “take on Big Pharma enough.”

So when did controlling drug prices become part of the NIH portfolio? That’s not something that I was aware necessarily went together.

Ollstein: I think it was just that her nomination was the one that was up, so you got to sort of dance with the partner you can find. Obviously, other agencies and other official positions would have made more sense and had more direct power over drug prices. But this was the open seat, and so this was the leverage they thought they could use, and whether what they got out of it made it worth it, that’s up for debate. But yeah, it is very unusual to see somebody going against a president with whom they are largely aligned.

So this was eventually cleared, but Bernie Sanders wasn’t the only one. There were some other Democratic senators who were asking for ethics pledges and other things around this nomination, but it did ultimately go through.

Rovner: Yeah, there was a statement from John Fetterman. He said, “I’m not going to vote for her because she’s not going to be tough enough on the drug industry.” It’s like, I’m pretty sure that’s not her job as the head of NIH.

I mean, before people start to complain, I know that there are some levers that NIH can pull in deciding how to do some of their clinical trials. They can have sort of a secondary effect on drug prices, but it’s certainly not …

Ollstein: Not as direct.

Rovner: … their main role in the federal bureaucracy.

Well, meanwhile, there was some actual real stuff on drug prices this week. The Federal Trade Commission, which the last time I checked was in charge of unfair pricing practices, is officially challenging 100 drug industry patent listings charging that the listings are inaccurate. And because those listings help prevent cheaper generics from entering the market, that’s not fair. This is one of those things that’s kind of mind-numbingly complex, but it can have a real impact, right? If some of these patents get disallowed or delisted, I guess, from the Orange Book, the official listing of patents for drugs?

Luhby: If that happens, it does clear the pathway for us to get generics and cheaper drugs that way. So there definitely is that that could lower the prices of some of these, and some of the ones listed are pretty commonly used things that people use on a regular basis like inhalers, that kind of stuff.

Rovner: So if there was a generic, it could have a big impact because a lot of people would end up using it.

Finally, this week the Biden administration — remember the Biden administration? — issued a rule that would crack down on some marketing tactics by Medicare Advantage plans. Meanwhile, the Senate Finance Committee approved a health “extenders” bill that extends programs that would otherwise expire, and it includes, among lots of Medicare and Medicaid odds and ends, a requirement that Medicare Advantage plans keep a more timely list of the providers that are in and out of network, which I think might be the most frustrating thing about most managed-care plans, not just Medicare Advantage.

Both the administration’s proposed rule and the finance bill are smallish, but they represent stuff that keeps these programs up to date. I mean, Tami, there’s some significant stuff here, isn’t there?

Luhby: Yeah. Medicare Advantage is getting more attention because it’s getting larger. I think this is the first year that it’s crossed the 50% threshold and it’s expected to just continue growing as younger baby boomers coming in who are used to employer health insurance want to keep that. And there are a lot of pros and cons about Medicare Advantage for the consumer, and the administration is making sure … or is trying incrementally to make sure that people understand what they’re getting into.

I’ve seen a couple, now that it’s open enrollment time, I’ve seen a couple of the ads, which interestingly do seem to be targeted towards older women, not necessarily baby boomers coming in, but they’re kind of crazy and they can be very misleading. And the administration, in this latest effort, is trying to limit commissions of brokers because there are additional incentives that companies and insurers can provide to brokers beyond just the fees. So they’re trying to rein that in. Previously, they were working on Medicare Advantage marketing, so there’s a lot that they’re trying to do to just make sure that people are aware of what they can do.

This proposed rule would require that these supplemental benefits, which are one of the attractive features of Medicare Advantage, because Medicare doesn’t cover vision, dental, hearing, et cetera, but the administration wants to make sure that people actually know about these benefits and are using them and it’s not just a sweetener that the insurers are dangling at open enrollment time.

Rovner: To get people to sign up.

Luhby: They’re incremental, but they’re trying to make it a little more transparent.

Rovner: Yeah, I think it’s just important to remember that the incessant marketing, and boy, it is incessant, suggests that these companies are making a lot of money on Medicare Advantage.

Luhby: Oh, yeah.

Rovner: They would not be spending all of this money to advertise if this were not a very profitable line of business for them.

Luhby: And a growing line, of course, because more and more people are going to be eligible.

Rovner: Yeah. So we will watch that space too.

Well, before we get to our “Bill of the Month” interview, it’s time for “This Week in Medical Misinformation.” I chose this week a study from the Ohio State University of health advice related to gynecologic cancers that was most popular on TikTok. The study found at least 73% of content was inaccurate and of poor educational quality and that it furthered already existing racial disparities in cancer care. We will link to the study in the notes, but at least we know that there are people trying to quantify the amount of misinformation that’s out there, if not figure out what to do about it.

OK. That is this week’s news. Now we will play my interview with my colleague Julie Appleby, then we will come back with our extra credits.

I am pleased to welcome back to the podcast my colleague Julie Appleby, who reported and wrote the latest KFF Health News-NPR “Bill of the Month” installment. Julie, thanks for joining us again.

Julie Appleby: Thanks for having me.

Rovner: So this month’s patient had a very small bill compared to most of them, but likely the kind that affects millions of patients. Tell us who she is and what brought her to our attention.

Appleby: Yes, exactly. Her name is Christine Rogers and she lives in Wake Forest, North Carolina. And like a lot of us, she went in for an exam with her doctor, sort of an annual-type exam. And while she was in the waiting room, they handed her a screening form for depression and for other mental health concerns, and she filled it out, and then went and saw her doctor.

During the discussion with her doctor, her doctor asked her about depression and her general mood, and Rogers had lost her mother that year, and so she told her doctor, “Yeah, it’s been a horrible year. I lost my mom.” So they had some discussion about that, and Rogers estimates it was about a five-minute discussion about depression, and then the visit wrapped up. Her doctor didn’t recommend any treatment or refer her for counseling or anything like that. It was just a discussion.

So Rogers was a little surprised when, later, she got a bill for that visit because, as you’ll remember, under the Affordable Care Act, preventive services, including depression screening, is supposed to be covered without a copay or a deductible. So she was a little surprised, and yeah, it wasn’t much. It was $67. That was her share of the visit. So she was just curious, why is this happening and what’s going on?

Rovner: So she calls the doctor’s office and said, “This is supposed to be free.” And what did they say?

Appleby: Right. She said that, and they explained to her that she had a discussion above and beyond just preventive, and so she was billed for a separate visit, basically, a 20- to 29-minute visit, specifically for the discussion treatment and that’s why she owed the money. So really, it wasn’t part of the wellness exam. It was part of a separate exam even though she was in the same office at the same time.

Rovner: But when I go for an annual physical, they give you a questionnaire. It’s not just about mental health. It’s about a lot of things, and it includes mental health. If you had a discussion about any of them, would that be billed separately? Could it be billed separately?

Appleby: Well, here’s where the nuance kicks in. So, as I said, under the Affordable Care Act, there’s a lot of preventive services that are covered without a copay. Things like certain cancer tests, certain vaccines, and yes, depression screening, but if you bring up something else during your wellness visit, they can indeed bill you for that.

So let’s say, for example, you mentioned to your doctor, “My shoulder’s really been killing me ever since I started playing pickleball,” and so then the doctor did some more exam of your shoulder. That could potentially be billed separately because it’s not part of the wellness visit. And in this case, initially, the doctor’s office coded it as two separate visits because it went above and beyond just a quick discussion of the questionnaire or just filling out the questionnaire.

Rovner: She goes to the doctor, the doctor says, “No, this is correct.” Then what happens?

Appleby: So then after we started calling around, we did talk to the insurer, Cigna, and the doctor’s practice, which is owned by WakeMed Physician Practices. And initially, they said the bill was coded correctly from the doctor’s office because it was a separate discussion. But after Cigna got involved, eventually after we talked to them, Rogers got a new explanation of benefits that zeroed out the visit. And a Cigna spokesperson said that the wellness visit was initially billed incorrectly with these two separate visit codes, basically, and that they had fixed that.

And so Christine Rogers did get her $67 back. But I think this does illustrate the issue of not all preventive services are covered without a copay if it goes beyond what they consider preventive. And that can be challenging. And many people that I spoke with for this article said Rogers did the exact right thing. She talked to her doctor honestly, and everybody emphasized that people should not avoid discussing health concerns with their doctors at a wellness visit for fear of getting a bill because, really, you’re there to get health care.

So what they do suggest is if after one of these wellness visits, if you do get a bill, you should ask about it, ask for an explanation of benefits, ask for an itemized billing statement. And if something seems off, question that. But keep in mind that some things, if they go beyond the preventive care guidelines, that you might get a separate bill even during what you might otherwise think would be a no-cost wellness visit.

Rovner: And if your shoulder’s bothering you after you take up pickleball, you probably should let a doctor look at it.

Appleby: You probably should.

Rovner: And I know that this was a fairly small bill, certainly in the scope of the bills that we usually look at, but this happened a lot with colonoscopies, that people would go in for the preventive colonoscopy that was paid for, but then if they found a polyp and took it off, suddenly they’d be charged for the surgery having the polyp removed. And that’s a lot more than $67.

Appleby: Right. And that has since been fixed. There’s been some clarification issued by CMS and others that that is not supposed to happen. So again, you go in for a screening colonoscopy, and that is supposed to be covered whether they find a polyp or not.

Now, if you go in because you have symptoms and there’s some other kind of problem, that’s where it can get more complicated. And we’ve seen that with other screenings too, such as mammograms. A screening mammogram is covered under the preventive services guidelines, but if you find a lump, there may be some questions to whether it’s gone from a screening mammogram to a diagnostic mammogram, which is covered under different guidelines.

Rovner: Bottom line, you should always look at your bill even if it’s for something small.

Appleby: Yes, that’s always a good rule of thumb. And if you have any questions, certainly contact your physician’s office and start there and ask about that. And you may also want to ask your insurer.

Rovner: Great. Julie Appleby, thanks for joining us.

OK, we’re back. It’s time for our extra-credit segment. That’s when we each recommend a story we read this week we think you should read, too. As always, don’t worry if you miss it. We will post the links on the podcast page at kffhealthnews.org and in our show notes on your phone or other mobile device.

Sandhya, why don’t you go first this week?

Raman: So my extra credit is called “Sex Trafficking, Drugs and Assault: Texas Foster Kids and Caseworkers Face Chaos in Rental Houses and Hotels,” and it’s by Karen Brooks Harper at the Texas Tribune.

Her story examines a report that looks at the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services that was done by some court-appointed watchdogs to report about some of the efforts to improve the foster care system. And they found a lot of overworked case workers that didn’t have training and no round-the-clock security. And it’s just a really important story about what’s trying to be done and what needs to be done for caring for some very vulnerable kids. Many of them, as the title suggests, are sex trafficking victims or from psychiatric facilities, and it’s just an unsafe environment for both the workers and the kids. So check that out.

Rovner: Alice?

Ollstein: So I picked a piece I did this week that sort of fell through the cracks in the news, but people should really be paying attention to this. It was a pretty scary report out of the Centers for Disease Control [and Prevention] about congenital syphilis. This is syphilis in pregnant people that is passed to infants in birth. And when not treated, it can be really deadly. It can cause stillbirths, it can cause birth defects, it can cause all kinds of issues, infertility in the parent, et cetera. And this has jumped tenfold over the last decade. It is killing hundreds of infants.

This is really scary. They sound that … so many people are just getting no prenatal care at all. And even when they are, they’re not getting tested for syphilis. And even when they’re getting tested and even when it’s detected, they’re not getting the treatment. And so people are really falling through the cracks. And, hopefully, this gets some more attention on this, but it’s also coming at a time when Congress is debating cutting these kinds of sexual health programs and services even more, not expanding them, which is what the report says is needed.

Rovner: That’s right. These are some of the things that would be cut in the proposed HHS spending bill that’s still kicking around in the House. Tami?

Luhby: So I looked at a ProPublica story. ProPublica has done several excellent deep dives into health insurers’ rejections of policyholders’ claims. These are very hard stories to do. They really are good at pulling back the curtain on these decisions that most people know very little about. So the latest story is by T. Christian Miller. It’s titled, “Big Insurance Met Its Match When It Turned Down a Top Trial Lawyer’s Request for Cancer Treatment.” It’s a long story, but it’s a piece about Robert Salim, I think, a litigator who was diagnosed with stage 4 throat cancer in 2018. His doctor recommended proton therapy, which specifically would minimize the damage to the surrounding tissues. Some of the side effects could be loss of hearing, damage to the sense of taste and smell, brain issues, memory loss. But the insurer, Blue Cross Blue Shield of Louisiana, refused to pay for it, saying it was not medically necessary. So Salim was able to pay the nearly $100,000 cost of treatment because he didn’t want to do these additional therapies first, which could leave him with hearing loss and all these other problems.

Rovner: Yeah, because he’s a rich trial lawyer, so he could afford it.

Luhby: Right, so he could afford it and he didn’t want to waste the time. But he also decided to battle Blue Cross and Blue Shield because, as he put it, he’s paid them $100,000 in premiums for him and for his employees at his law firm. And he’s just like, “Now that I need it, they’re not there.” So the story goes into the lengths that Salim had to go to, including his doctor sending in a 225-page request to Blue Cross to do an independent medical review. But what was interesting was that multiple doctors that were hired by the insurer to battle Salim’s appeal kept referring to guidelines that are created by this company called AIM Specialty Health, which is actually part of Anthem. So Salim, who has now been cancer-free for nearly five years, the appeal didn’t work, so he ended up taking Blue Cross to court and he actually won, but he’s still waiting to get his reimbursement. So read the story. It has a lot of twists and turns and shows that even someone with means and expertise, the battle is still so difficult. How can people who don’t have the resources, both financially and legally to do this … he had to hire a friend of his to take them to court, like a childhood friend or a college friend, because it was such a difficult case to put before the courts. It’s a good story.

Rovner: Yeah, it’s the juicy story of the week.

Luhby: It’s a scary story.

Rovner: Scary and juicy. Well, my story actually builds on Tami’s story. It’s also from ProPublica. It also builds on our “Bill of the Month” project. It is a new tool that can help patients file the paperwork to find out why their insurer denied a claim. As we have pointed out so many times, most people simply don’t bother to argue with their health care providers or insurers because they don’t know how, and it is not easy. They make it difficult on purpose. This tool actually walks you through a key part of the process: how to ask for the information that the insurance company used to deny the claim. It’s super helpful and it’s a good place to go rather than doing the sort of one at a time, “I have this bill, will you look at it, journalist?” Here’s a way where people can at least start to do their own digging. As Tami says, it gets harder, but many people are being denied care that they are, in fact, eligible to. So here’s a way to at least start to try and get that care.

OK. That is our show. As always, if you enjoy the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left us a review; that helps other people find us, too. Special thanks, as always, to our tireless engineer, Francis Ying.

Also, as always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org, or you can still find me at X, @jrovner or @julierovner at Bluesky and Threads. Sandhya?

Raman: @SandhyaWrites.

Rovner: Tami?

Luhby: Well, I’m at @Luhby, but it’s not really worth looking at it.

Rovner: Alice?

Ollstein: @AliceOllstein.

Rovner: We will be back in your feed next week. Until then, be healthy.

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In Kentucky, both the newly reelected Democratic governor, Andy Beshear, and his Republican challenger, Attorney General Daniel Cameron, were involved in lawsuits against companies that made, sold or distributed opioid painkillers. 

The Health 202 is a coproduction of The Washington Post and KFF Health News.

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They sparred for months in news conferences and on social media over who deserved credit for bringing hundreds of millions of dollars to their state to address the opioid epidemic. Beshear filed several of the lawsuits when he was attorney general, but Cameron finalized the deals during his tenure.

More than 100,000 Americans died of drug overdoses last year. The billions in opioid settlement dollars arriving nationwide could make a dent in the epidemic. But there are widely differing opinions on how to spend it. Some people favor investing in law-and-order efforts to stop the trafficking of fentanyl and other illicit drugs, while others prefer to focus on treatment and social support to help people achieve long-term recovery. While politicians talk about the amount of cash they’ve brought in, many people directly affected by the crisis are more concerned with how the money will help them and their loved ones. 

It’s hard to tell how much of a role opioid money played in Beshear’s victory. But this playbook could be instructive to gubernatorial candidates next year, some of whom have a more decisive claim to the settlements.

North Carolina Attorney General Josh Stein, a Democrat, and West Virginia Attorney General Patrick Morrisey, a Republican, are among the most prominent voices on the opioid settlements across the country — and they’re both running for governor in 2024. (“AG,” the joke goes, stands for “aspiring governor.”)

Stein, a Democrat seeking to succeed Gov. Roy Cooper, has made his name as one of the lead negotiators in the national deals. He has emphasized his office’s role in ensuring opioid settlement money is spent on addiction treatment and prevention — unlike the tobacco settlement of 1998, from which less than 3 percent of annual payouts go to antismoking efforts. 

He has toured his state discussing the use of settlement funds and has won an award for the state’s transparency in reporting how dollars are spent. Securing opioid settlement funds is listed at the top of the “accomplishments” section of his 2024 gubernatorial campaign website. 

Morrisey’s claim to fame is a bit different. He chose not to participate in many national deals, instead striking out on his own to win larger settlements just for West Virginia. The state is set to receive more than $500 million over nearly two decades. Morrisey has repeatedly boasted about his record of securing the “highest per capita settlements in the nation.” The claim appears on his campaign website, too. Morrisey’s looking to succeed Democrat-turned-Republican Gov. Jim Justice, who is term-limited.

KFF polling suggests that even beyond the death toll, the impact of the epidemic is broad: 3 in 10 Americans say they or a loved one have been addicted to opioids. Throw in alcohol and other drugs, and the burden of addiction rises to two-thirds of the country. It’s not clear whether politicians can break through to voters by touting their records on the settlements, but regardless, we’re going to hear a lot more about the money on the campaign trail next year. 

Stephen Voss, an associate professor of political science at the University of Kentucky, said it’s a smart talking point for politicians.

“Scoring money for your constituency almost always plays well,” he said. It “is a lot more compelling and unifying a political argument than taking a position on something like abortion,” where you risk alienating someone no matter what you say.

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Mary Agnes Carey
KFF Health News

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Partnerships Editor and Senior Correspondent, oversees placement of KFF Health News content in publications nationwide and covers health reform and federal health policy. Before joining KFF Health News, Mary Agnes was associate editor of CQ HealthBeat, Capitol Hill Bureau Chief for Congressional Quarterly, and a reporter with Dow Jones Newswires. A frequent radio and television commentator, she has appeared on CNN, C-SPAN, the PBS NewsHour, and on NPR affiliates nationwide. Her stories have appeared in The Washington Post, USA Today, TheAtlantic.com, Time.com, Money.com, and The Daily Beast, among other publications. She worked for newspapers in Connecticut and Pennsylvania, and has a master’s degree in journalism from Columbia University.

In most states, open enrollment for plans on the Affordable Care Act exchange — also known as Obamacare — began Nov. 1 and lasts until Dec. 15, though some states go longer. With premiums expected to increase by a median of 6%, consumers who get their health coverage through the federal or state ACA marketplaces are encouraged to shop around. Because of enhanced subsidies and cost-sharing assistance, they might save money by switching plans.

Meanwhile, Ohio is yet again an election-year battleground state. A ballot issue that would provide constitutional protection to reproductive health decisions has become a flashpoint for misinformation and message testing.

This week’s panelists are Mary Agnes Carey of KFF Health News, Jessie Hellmann of CQ Roll Call, Joanne Kenen of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico, and Rachana Pradhan of KFF Health News.

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Jessie Hellmann
CQ Roll Call

@jessiehellmann

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Joanne Kenen
Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico

@JoanneKenen

Read Joanne's stories

Rachana Pradhan
KFF Health News

@rachanadpradhan

Read Rachana's stories

Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:

• Open enrollment for most plans on the Affordable Care Act exchange — also known as Obamacare — began Nov. 1 and lasts until Dec. 15, though enrollment lasts longer in some states. With premiums expected to increase by a median of 6%, consumers are advised to shop around. Enhanced subsidies are still in place post-pandemic, and enhanced cost-sharing assistance is available to those who qualify. Many people who have lost health coverage may be eligible for subsidies.
• In Ohio, voters will consider a ballot issue that would protect abortion rights under the state constitution. This closely watched contest is viewed by anti-abortion advocates as a testing ground for messaging on the issue. Abortion is also key in other races, such as for Pennsylvania’s Supreme Court and Virginia’s state assembly, where the entire legislature is up for election.
• Earlier this week, President Joe Biden issued an executive order that calls on federal agencies, including the Department of Health and Human Services, to step into the artificial intelligence arena. AI is a buzzword at every health care conference or panel these days, and the technologies are already in use in health care, with insurers using AI to help make coverage decisions. There is also the recurring question, after many hearings and much discussion: Why hasn’t Congress acted to regulate AI yet?
• Our health care system — in particular the doctors, nurses, and other medical personnel — hasn’t recovered from the pandemic. Workers are still burned out, and some have participated in work stoppages to make the point that they can’t take much more. Will this be the next area for organized labor, fresh from successful strikes against automakers, to grow union membership? Take pharmacy workers, for instance, who are beginning to stage walkouts to push for improvements.
• And, of course, for the next installment of the new podcast feature, “This Week in Medical Misinformation:” The official government website of the Republican-controlled Ohio Senate is attacking the proposed abortion amendment in what some experts have said is a highly unusual and misleading manner. Headlines on its “On The Record” blog include “Abortion Is Killing the Black Community” and say the ballot measure would cause “unimaginable atrocities.” The Associated Press termed the blog’s language “inflammatory.”

Plus, for “extra credit,” the panelists suggest health policy stories they read this week they think you should read, too:

Mary Agnes Carey: Stat News’ “The Health Care Issue Democrats Can’t Solve: Hospital Reform,” by Rachel Cohrs.

Jessie Hellmann: The Washington Post’s “Drugstore Closures Are Leaving Millions Without Easy Access to a Pharmacy,” by Aaron Gregg and Jaclyn Peiser.

Joanne Kenen: The Washington Post’s “Older Americans Are Dominating Like Never Before, but What Comes Next?” by Marc Fisher.

Rachana Pradhan: The New York Times’ “How a Lucrative Surgery Took Off Online and Disfigured Patients,” by Sarah Kliff and Katie Thomas.

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Transcript: For ACA Plans, It’s Time to Shop Around

[Editor’s note: This transcript was generated using both transcription software and a human’s light touch. It has been edited for style and clarity.]

Mary Agnes Carey: Hello, and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Mary Agnes Carey, partnerships editor for KFF Health News, filling in this week for Julie Rovner. I’m joined by some of the best and smartest health reporters in Washington. We’re taping this week on Thursday, Nov. 2, at 10 a.m. ET. As always, news happens fast, and things might’ve changed by the time you hear this.

We are joined today via video conference by Joanne Kenen of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico.

Joanne Kenen: Hi, everybody.

Carey: Jessie Hellmann, of CQ Roll Call.

Jessie Hellmann: Hey there.

Carey: And my KFF Health News colleague Rachana Pradhan.

Rachana Pradhan: Thanks for having me.

Carey: It’s great to have you here. It’s great to have all of you here. Let’s start today with the Affordable Care Act. If you’re interested in enrolling in an ACA plan for coverage that begins Jan. 1, it’s time for you to sign up. The ACA’s open enrollment period began Nov. 1 and lasts through Dec. 15 for plans offered on the federal exchange, but some state-based ACA exchanges have longer enrollment periods. Consumers can go online, call an 800 number, get help from an insurance broker or from other ACA navigators and others who are trained to help you research your coverage options, help you find out if you qualify for a subsidy, or if you should consider changing your ACA plan.

What can consumers expect this year during open enrollment? Are there more or fewer choices? Are premiums increasing?

Hellmann: So, I saw the average premium will increase about 6%. So people are definitely going to want to shop around and might not necessarily just want to stick with the same plan that they had last year. And we’re also going to continue seeing the enhanced premiums, subsidies, that Congress passed last year that they kind of stuck with after the pandemic. So subsidies might be more affordable for people — I’m sorry, premiums might be more affordable for people. There’s also some enhanced cost-sharing assistance.

Carey: So it kind of underscores the idea that if you’re on the ACA exchange, you really should go back and take a look, right? Because there might be a different deal out there waiting.

Kenen: I think the wrinkle — this may be what you were just about to ask — but the wrinkle this year is the Medicaid disenroll, the unwinding. There are approximately 10 million, 10 million people, who’ve been disenrolled from Medicaid. Many of them are eligible for Medicaid, and at some point hopefully they’ll figure out how to get them back on. But some of those who are no longer eligible for Medicaid will probably be eligible for heavily subsidized ACA plans if they understand that and go look for it.

This population has been hard to reach and hard to communicate with for a number of reasons, some caused by the health system, not the people, or the Medicaid system, the states. They do have a fallback; they have some extra options. But a lot of those people should click and see what they’re eligible for.

Pradhan: One thing, kind of piggybacking on what Joanne said, that I’m really interested in: Of course, right now is a time when people can actively sign up for ACA plans. But the people who lost Medicaid, or are losing Medicaid — technically, the state Medicaid agency, if they think that a person might qualify for an ACA plan, they’re supposed to automatically transfer those people’s applications to their marketplace, whether it’s healthcare.gov or a state-based exchange. But the data we have so far shows really low enrollment rates into ACA plans from those batches of people that are being automatically transferred. So I’m really curious about whether that’s going to improve and what does enrollment look like in a few months to see if those rates actually increase.

Carey: I’m also wondering what you’re all picking up on the issue of the provider networks. How many doctors and hospitals and other providers are included in these plans? Are they likely to be smaller for 2024? Are they getting bigger? Is there a particular trend you can point to?

I know that sometimes insurers might reduce the number of providers, narrow that network, for example to lower costs. So I guess that remains to be seen here.

Kenen: I haven’t seen data on the ACA plans, and maybe one of the other podcasters has. I haven’t seen that. But we do know that in certain cities, including the one we all live in [Washington, D.C.], many doctors are stopping, are no longer taking insurance. I mean, it’s not most, but the number of people who are dropping being in-network in some of the major networks that we are used to, I think we have all encountered that in our own lives and our friends’ and families’ lives. There are doctors opting out, or they’re in but their practices are closed; they’re not taking more patients, they’re full.

I don’t want to pretend I know how much worse it is or isn’t in ACA plans, but we do know that this is a trend for multiple years. In some parts of the country, it’s getting worse.

Hellmann: Yeah, the Biden administration has been doing some stuff to try to address some of these problems. Last year there were some rules requiring health plans have enough in-network providers that meet specific driving time and distance requirements. So, they are trying to address this, but I wouldn’t be surprised if some of these plans’ networks are still pretty narrow.

Pradhan: Yeah. I mean, I think the concern for a while now with ACA plans is because insurance companies can’t do the things that they did a decade ago to limit premium increases, etc., one of the ways they can keep their costs down is to curtail the number of available providers for someone who signs up for one of these plans. So, like Jessie, I’m curious about how those new rules from last year will affect whether people see meaningful differences in the availability of in-network providers under specific plans.

Carey: That and many other trends are worth watching as we head into the open enrollment season. But right now, I’d like to turn to another topic in the news, and that’s abortion. “What the Health?” listeners know that last week your host, Julie Rovner, created a new segment that she’s calling “This Week in Health Care Misinformation.” Here’s this week’s entry.

A measure before Ohio voters next Tuesday, that’s Nov. 7, would amend Ohio’s constitution to guarantee the right to reproductive health care decisions, including abortion. Abortion rights opponents say the measure is crafted too broadly and should not be approved. The official government website of the Republican-controlled Ohio Senate is attacking the proposed abortion amendment in what some experts have said is a highly unusual and misleading manner. Headlines on the “On The Record” blog — and that’s what it’s called, “On The Record”; this is on the Ohio state website — it makes several claims about the measure that legal and medical experts have told The Associated Press were false or misleading. Headlines on this site include, and I’m quoting here, “Abortion Is Killing the Black Community” and that the proposal would cause, again, another quote, “unimaginable atrocities.” Isn’t it unusual for an official government website to operate in this manner?

Pradhan: I think yes, as far as we know, and that’s really scary. It’s hard enough these days to sort out what is legitimate and what isn’t. We’ve seen AI [artificial intelligence] used in other political campaign materials in the forms of altered videos, photographs, etc. But now this is a really terrifying prospect, I think, that you could provide misinformation to voters — particularly in close races, I would say, that you could really swing an outcome based on what people are being told.

Kenen: The other thing that’s being said in Ohio by the Republicans is that the measure would allow, quote, “partial-birth abortions,” which is a particular — it’s a phrase used to describe a particular type of late-term abortion that’s illegal. Congress passed legislation, I think it’s 15 to 20 years ago now, and it went through the courts and it’s been upheld by the courts. This measure in Ohio does not undo federal law in the state of Ohio or anywhere else. So that’s not true. And that’s another thing circulating.

Carey: This discussion is very important. And to Rachana’s point, how voters perceive this is very important because Ohio is serving as a testing ground for political messaging headed into the presidential race next year. And abortion groups are trying to qualify initiatives in more states in 2024, potentially including Arizona. So even if you haven’t followed this story closely, I mean, how do you think this tactic may influence voters? Again, you’re talking about something — when you hit a news tab on an official state website, you come to this blog. Do you think voters will reject it? Could it possibly influence them — as you were talking about earlier, tip the results?

Kenen: Well, I don’t think we know how it’s going to tip, because I don’t know how many people actually read the state legislature blog.

Carey: Yeah, that could be an issue.

Kenen: Although, and the coverage of it, one would hope, in the state media would point out that some of these claims are untrue. But I mean, it’s taking — you know, the Republicans have lost every single state ballot initiative on abortion, and it’s been a winning issue for the Democrats and they’re trying to reframe it a little bit, because while polls have shown — not just polls, but voting behavior has shown — many Americans want abortion to remain legal, they aren’t as comfortable with late-term abortions, with abortions in the final weeks or months of pregnancy. So this is trying to shift it from a general debate over banning abortion, which is not popular in the U.S., to an area where there’s softer support for abortions later during pregnancy.

And polls have shown really strong support for abortion rights. But this is an area that is not as strong, or a little bit more open to maybe moving people. And if the Republicans succeed in portraying this as falsely allowing a procedure that the country has decided to ban, I think that’s part of what’s going on, is to shift the definition, shift the terms of debate.

Carey: As we know, Ohio is not the only state where abortion is taking center stage. For example, in Pennsylvania, abortion is a key issue in the state Supreme Court justice election, and it’s a test case of political fallout from the Supreme Court, the United States Supreme Court’s decision last summer to overrule Roe v. Wade. In Texas, the state is accusing Planned Parenthood of defrauding the Republican-led state’s Medicaid health insurance program. And in Kansas, in a victory for abortion rights advocates, a judge put a new state law on medication abortions on hold and blocked other restrictions governing the use and distribution of these medications and imposed waiting periods.

And of course, abortion remains a huge issue on Capitol Hill, with House Republicans inserting language into many spending bills to restrict abortion access, to block funding for HIV prevention, contraception, global health programs, and so on. So, which of these cases, or others maybe that you are watching, do you think will be the strongest indicators of how the abortion battle will shake out for the rest of this year and into 2024?

Pradhan: I’m actually going to make a plug for another one that we didn’t mention, which is for our local, D.C.-area listeners, Virginia next week has a state legislative election. So, Gov. [Glenn] Youngkin of course is still — he’s not up for reelection; he’ll sit one single four-year term, but the entire Virginia General Assembly is up for election. So currently Gov. Youngkin says that he wants to institute a 15-week abortion ban, but Republicans would need to control every branch of government, which they do not currently, but it is possible that they will after next week. So that would be a big change as you see abortion restrictions that have proliferated, especially throughout the South and the Midwest. But now Virginia so far has not, in the wake of last year’s Dobbs [v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization] decision, has not imposed greater restrictions on access to abortion.

But I think the 15-week limit also provides kind of a test case, I think, for whether Republicans might be able to coalesce around that standard as opposed to something more aggressive like, say, a total ban or a six-week ban that’s obviously been instituted in certain states but I think at a national level right now is a nonstarter. I’m pretty interested in seeing what happens even in a lot of our own backyard.

Kenen: Because Virginia’s really tightly divided. I mean, the last few elections. This was a traditional Republican state that has become a purple state. And the last few state legislature elections, didn’t they once decide by drawing lots? It was so close. I mean it’s flipped back. It’s really, really, really tiny margins in both houses. I think Rachana lives there and knows the details better than I do. But it’s razor-thin, and it was Republican-controlled for a long time and Democrats, what, have one-seat-in-the-Senate control? Something like that, a very narrow margin. And they may or may not keep it.

Pradhan: Joanne, your memory’s so good, because they had —

Kenen: Because I edited your stories.

Pradhan: You did. I know. And they had to draw names out of a bowl that was— it was in a museum. It was something that a Virginia potter had made and they had to take it out of a museum exhibit. I mean, it was the most — it’s really fascinating what democracy can look like in this country when it comes down to it. It was such a bizarre situation to decide control of the state House. So you’re very right, so it’s very close.

Kenen: It’s also worth pointing out, as we have in prior weeks, that 15 weeks is now being offered as this sort of moderate position, when 15 weeks — a year ago, that’s what the Supreme Court case was really about, the case we know as Dobbs. It was about a law in Mississippi that was a 15-week ban. And what happened is once the courts gave the states the go-ahead, they went way further than 15 weeks. I don’t know how many states have a 15-week ban, not many. The anti-abortion states now have sort of six weeks-ish or less. North Carolina has 12, with some conditions. So 15 weeks is now Youngkin saying, “Here’s the middle ground.” I mean, even when Congress was trying to do a ban, it was 20, so — when they had those symbolic votes, I think it was always 20. He’s changed the parameters of what we’re talking about politically.

Carey: Jessie, how do you see the abortion riders on these appropriations bills, particularly in the House. House Republicans have put a lot of this abortion language into the approps bills. How do you see that shaking out, resolving itself, as we look forward?

Hellmann: It is hard to see how some of these riders could become law, like the one in the FDA-Ag approps bill that would basically ban mailing of mifepristone, which can be used for abortions. Even some moderate Republicans who are really against that rider — I mean just a handful, but it’s enough where it should just be a nonstarter. So I’m just not sure how I can see a compromise on that right now. And I definitely don’t see how that could pass the Senate. So it’s just everything has become so much more contentious since the Roe decision. And things that weren’t contentious before, like the PEPFAR [The United States President’s Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief] reauthorization, are now being bogged down in abortion politics. It’s hard to see how the two sides can come to an agreement at this point.

Carey: Yes, contentious issues are everywhere. So, let’s switch from abortion to AI. Earlier this week, President Biden issued an executive order that calls on several federal agencies, including the Department of Health and Human Services, to create regulations governing the use of AI, including in health care. What uses of AI now in health care, or even future uses, are causing the greatest concern and might be the greatest focus of this executive order? And I’m thinking of things that work well in AI or are accepted, and things that maybe aren’t accepted at this point or people are concerned about.

Kenen: I think that none of us on the panel are super AI experts.

Carey: Nor am I, nor am I.

Kenen: But we are all following it and learning about it the way everybody else is. I think this is something that Vice President Harris pointed out in a summit in London on AI yesterday. There’s a lot of focus on the existential, cosmic scary stuff, like: Is it going to kill us all? But there’s also practical things right now, particularly in health care, like using algorithms to deny people care. And there’s been some exposés of insurance doing batch denials based on an AI formula. There’s concerns about — since AI is based on the data we have and the data, that’s the foundation, that’s the edifice. So the data we have is flawed, there’s racial bias in the data we have. So how do you make sure the algorithms in the future don’t bake in the inequities we already have? And there’s questions too about AI is already being used clinically, and how well does it really work? How reliable are the studies and the data? What do we know or not know before we start?

I mean, it has huge potential. There are risks, but it also has huge potential. So how do we make sure that we don’t have exaggerated happy-go-lucky mistrust in technology before we actually understand what it can and cannot do and what kind of safeguards the government —and the European governments as well; it’s not just us, and they may do a better job — are going to be in place so that we have the good without … The goal is sort of, to be really simplistic about it, is let’s have the good without the bad, but doing it is challenging.

Carey: Oh, Rachana, please.

Pradhan: Well, all I was going to say was nowadays you cannot go to a health care conference or a panel discussion without there being some session about AI. I guess it demonstrates the level of interest. It kind of reminds me of every few years there’s a new health care unicorn. So there was ACOs [accountable care organizations] for a long time; that’s all people would talk about. Or value-based care, like every conference you went to. And then with covid, and for other reasons, everyone is really big on equity, equity, equity for a long time. And now it’s like AI is everywhere.

So like Joanne said, I mean, we have everything from a chatbot that pops up on your screen to answer even benign questions about insurance. That’s AI. It’s a form of AI. It’s not generative AI, but it is. And yeah, I mean, insurance companies use all sorts of algorithms and data to make decisions about what claims they’re going to pay and not pay. So yeah, I think we all just have to exercise some skepticism when we’re trying to examine how this might be used for good or bad.

Kenen: I just want a robot to clean my kitchen. Why doesn’t anyone just handle the … Silicon Valley does the really important stuff.

Carey: That would be a use for good in your house, in my house, in all our houses.

Kenen: Yeah.

Carey: So, while we’re understandably and admittedly not AI experts, we are experts on Congress here. And the president did say in his announcement earlier this week that Congress still needs to act on this issue. Why haven’t they done it yet? They’ve had all these hearings and all this conversation about crafting rules around privacy, online safety, and emerging technologies. Why no action so far? And any bets on whether it may or may not happen in the near future?

Hellmann: I think they don’t know what to do. We’ve only, as a country, started really talking about AI at kitchen tables, to use a cliche, this year. And so Congress is always behind the eight ball on these issues. And even if they are having these member meetings and talking about it, I think it could take a long time for them to actually pass any meaningful legislation that isn’t just directing an agency to do a study or directing an agency to issue regulations or something that could have a really big impact.

Carey: Excellent. Thank you. So let’s touch briefly — before we wrap, I really do want to get to this point and some of the stuff we continue to see in the news about health care workers under fire. It’s certainly not easy to be a health care worker these days. New findings published by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention show that, in 2022, 13.4% of health workers said they had been harassed at work. That’s up from 6.4% in 2018. That’s more than double the rate of workplace harassment compared to pre-pandemic times, the CDC found.

We’ve talked about this before. It’s worth revisiting again. What is going on with our health care workforce? And what do these kind of findings mean for keeping talented people in the workforce, attracting new people to join?

Hellmann: Has anyone actually caught a break after the pandemic?

Carey: That’s a good point.

Hellmann: I mean, covid is still out there, but I don’t think that our health care system has really recovered from that. People have left the workforce because they’re burned out. People still feel burned out who stuck around, and I don’t know if they really got any breaks or the support that they needed. There’s just kind of this recognition of people being burned out. But I don’t know how much action there is to address the issue.

I feel like sometimes that leads to more burnout, when you see executives and leaders acknowledging the problem but then not really doing much to address it.

Carey: Well, that’s certainly been the complaint by pharmacy staff and others and pharmacists at some of the large drugstore chains, retail chains, that have gone out on strike. They’ve had these two- and three-day strikes recently. So, I’m assuming that will continue, unfortunately, for all the reasons that Jessie just laid out.

Pradhan: Actually, kind of going back to the strikes from pharmacists, I was thinking about this earlier because we’ve seen recently, I think separately in the news when it comes to labor unions, and maybe this will have some bearing, maybe not, but the United Auto Workers strike — I mean, they extracted some of the largest concessions from automakers as far as pay increases. And people are seeing, they really got a victory after striking for weeks. And I think people, at least the coverage that I’ve seen has talked about how that union win might not just catalyze greater labor union involvement, not just in the auto industry but in other parts of the country and other sectors.

And so, I’m not sure what percentage of pharmacists are part of labor unions, but I think people have sort of said more recently that organized labor is having a moment, or has been, that it has not in a while. And so, I’ll be fascinated to see whether there’s a greater appetite among pharmacists to actually be part of a labor union and sort of whether that results in greater demands of some of these corporate chains. As we know — we can talk about this I think in a little bit — but the corporate chains have really taken over pharmacies in America, and rural pharmacies are really dying off. And so that has a lot of important implications for the country.

Kenen: I think the problems with the health care workforce are not all things that labor unions can address, because some of it is how many hours you work and what kind of shifts you have and how often they change and things that — yeah, I mean, labor is having a moment, Rachana’s right. But they’re also tied to larger demographic trends, with an aging society. It’s tied to, our whole system is geared toward the, like dean of nursing at [Johns] Hopkins Sarah Szanton is always talking about, it’s not so much not having enough nurses; we’ve got them in the wrong places. If we did more preventive care and community care and chronic disease management in the community, you wouldn’t have so many people in the hospital in the first place where the workforce crisis is.

So some of these larger issues of how do we have a better health care system; labor negotiations can address aspects of it. Nursing ratios are controversial, but that’s a labor issue. It’s a regulatory issue as well. But our whole system’s so screwed up now that Jessie’s right, nobody recovered from the strains of the pandemic in many sectors, probably all sectors of society, but obviously particularly brutal on the health care workforce. We didn’t get to hit pause and say, OK, nobody get sick for six months while we all recover. The unmet psychiatric needs. I mean, it’s just tons of stuff is wrong, and it’s manifesting itself in a workforce crisis. So maybe if you don’t have anyone to take care of you, maybe people will pay attention to the larger underlying reasons for that.

Carey: That’s an issue I’m sure we will talk more about in the future because it’s just not going anywhere. But for now, we’re going to turn to our extra credit segment. That’s when we each recommend a story we read this week and think you should read, too. As always, don’t worry if you miss it. We will post the links on the podcast page at kffhealthnews.org and in our show notes on your phone or other mobile device.

Joanne, why don’t you go first this week?

Kenen: Well, speaking of which, after we just talked about, there’s a piece in The Washington Post by Marc Fisher. It has a long headline: “Older Americans Are Dominating Like Never Before, but What Comes Next?” And basically it’s talking about not so much the nursing and physician workforce, although that’s part of it, just the workforce in general. We have more people working longer, and in areas where there’s shortages, there’s nothing wrong with having old people. A lot of communities have shortages of school bus drivers. So if you have a lot of older school bus drivers and they’re safe and like kids and like driving the bus, more power to them. If you’re 55 and you can drive a school bus full of nine-year-olds, middle schoolers, so much more.

Carey: Good luck with that one.

Kenen: But some of the physician specialties — one of the people in the story is a palliative care physician who retired and isn’t happy retired and wants to go back to work. And that’s another area where we need more people. But it’s a cultural shift, like, who’s doing what when, and how does it affect the younger generation? Although there was a reference to Angelina Jolie being on the old side at 48. I guess for an actress that might be old. But that wasn’t the gist of it. But we have this shift toward older people in many places, not just Trump and Biden. It’s sort of the whole workforce.

Carey: Got it. Jessie.

Hellmann: My extra credit is also a story from The Washington Post. It’s called “Drugstore Closures Are Leaving Millions Without Easy Access to a Pharmacy.” Focused specifically on some of the big national chains like CVS and Walgreens and Rite Aid, which have really kind of dominated the drugstore space over the past few decades. But now they are dealing with the repercussions from all these lawsuits that are being filed alleging they had a role in the opioid epidemic. And the story just kind of looks at the consequences of that.

These aren’t just places people get prescriptions. They rely on them for food, for medical advice, especially in rural and underserved areas. So yeah, I just thought it was a really interesting look at that issue.

Carey: Rachana?

Pradhan: So my extra credit is a story in The New York Times called “How a Lucrative Surgery Took Off Online and Disfigured Patients.” It’s horrifying. It’s a story about surgeons who are performing a complex type of hernia surgery and evidently are learning their techniques, or at least a large share of them are learning their techniques, by watching videos on social media. And the techniques that are demonstrated there are not exactly high quality. So the story digs into resulting harm to patients.

Kenen: And it’s unnecessary surgery in the first place — for many, not all. But it’s a more complicated procedure than they even need in a large portion of these patients.

Carey: My extra credit is written by Rachel Cohrs of Stat, and she’s a frequent guest on this program. Her story is called “The Health Care Issue Democrats Can’t Solve: Hospital Reform.” While Democrats have seized on lowering health care costs as a politically winning issue — they’ve taken on insurers and the drug industry, for example — Rachel writes that hospitals may be a health care giant they’re unable to confront alone, and they being the Democrats. As we know, hospitals are major employers in many congressional districts. There’s been a lot of consolidation in the industry in recent years. And hospital industry lobbyists have worked hard to preserve the image that they are the good guys in the health care industry, Rachel writes, while others, like pharma, are not.

Well, that’s our show. As always, if you enjoy the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left us a review; that helps others find us too. Special thanks, as always, to our engineer, Francis Ying. Also, as always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org, or you could still find me on X. I am @maryagnescarey. Rachana?

Pradhan: I am @rachanadpradhan on X.

Carey: Jessie.

Hellmann: @jessiehellmann.

Carey: And Joanne.

Kenen: I’m occasionally on X, @JoanneKenen, and I’m trying to get more on Threads, @joannekenen1.

Carey: We’ll be back in your feed next week, and until then, be healthy.

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Julie Rovner is chief Washington correspondent and host of KFF Health News’ weekly health policy news podcast, “What the Health?” A noted expert on health policy issues, Julie is the author of the critically praised reference book “Health Care Politics and Policy A to Z,” now in its third edition.

Autumn is for pumpkins and raking leaves — and open enrollment for health plans. Medicare’s annual open enrollment began Oct. 1 and runs through Dec. 7. It will be followed shortly by the Affordable Care Act’s annual open enrollment, which starts Nov. 1 and runs until Jan. 15 in most states. But what used to be a fairly simple annual task — renewing an existing health plan or choosing a new one — has become a confusing, time-consuming mess for many, due to our convoluted health care system.

Meanwhile, Ohio will be the next state where voters will decide whether to protect abortion rights. Those on both sides of the debate are gearing up for the November vote, with anti-abortion forces hoping to break a losing streak of state ballot measures related to abortion since the 2022 overturn of Roe v. Wade.

This week’s panelists are Julie Rovner of KFF Health News, Joanne Kenen of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico, Alice Miranda Ollstein of Politico, and Lauren Weber of The Washington Post.

Panelists

Joanne Kenen
Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico

@JoanneKenen

Read Joanne's stories

Alice Miranda Ollstein
Politico

@AliceOllstein

Read Alice's stories

Lauren Weber
The Washington Post

@LaurenWeberHP

Read Lauren's stories

Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:

• The U.S. House of Representatives has been without an elected speaker since Oct. 4. That means lawmakers cannot conduct any legislative business, with several important health bills pending — including renewal of the popular international HIV/AIDS program, PEPFAR.
• Open enrollment is not just for people looking to change health insurance plans. Plans themselves change, and those who do nothing risk continuing in a plan that no longer meets their needs.
• A new round of lawsuits has sprung up related to “abortion reversals,” a controversial practice in which a patient, having taken the first dose of a two-dose abortion medication regimen, takes a high dose of the hormone progesterone rather than the second medication that completes the abortion. In Colorado, a Catholic-affiliated health clinic says a state law banning the practice violates its religious rights, while in California, the state attorney general is suing two faith-based chains that operate pregnancy “crisis centers,” alleging that by advertising the procedure they are making “fraudulent and misleading” claims.
• The latest survey of employer health insurance by KFF shows annual family premiums are again escalating rapidly — up an average of 7% from 2022 to 2023, with even larger increases expected for 2024. It’s not clear whether the already high cost of providing insurance to workers — an annual family policy now averages just under $24,000 — will dampen companies’ enthusiasm for providing the benefit.

Also this week, Rovner interviews KFF Health News’ Arielle Zionts, who reported and wrote the latest KFF Health News-NPR “Bill of the Month” feature about the wide cost variation of chemotherapy from state to state. If you have an outrageous or inscrutable medical you’d like to send us, you can do that here.

Plus, for “extra credit,” the panelists suggest health policy stories they read this week they think you should read, too:

Julie Rovner: NPR’s “How Gas Utilities Used Tobacco Tactics to Avoid Gas Stove Regulations,” by Jeff Brady.

Lauren Weber: KFF Health News’ “Doctors Abandon a Diagnosis Used to Justify Police Custody Deaths. It Might Live On, Anyway,” by Markian Hawryluk and Renuka Rayasam.

Joanne Kenen: The Washington Post’s “How Lunchables Ended Up on School Lunch Trays,” by Lenny Bernstein, Lauren Weber, and Dan Keating.

Alice Miranda Ollstein: KFF Health News’ “Pregnant and Addicted: Homeless Women See Hope in Street Medicine,” by Angela Hart.

Also mentioned in this week’s episode:

• The Washington Post’s “The Post Spent the Past Year Examining U.S. Life Expectancy. Here’s What We Found,” by The Washington Post staff.
• The Washington Post’s “Primary Care Saves Lives. Here’s Why It’s Failing Americans,” by Frances Stead Sellers.
• Vox’s “Vox Launches New Guide to Open Enrollment,” by Vox Communications.
• Politico Magazine’s “How Dobbs Triggered a ‘Vasectomy Revolution,’” by Jesús A. Rodríguez.

Click to open the transcript

Transcript: The Open Enrollment Mixing Bowl

KFF Health News’ ‘What the Health?’Episode Title: The Open Enrollment Mixing BowlEpisode Number: 319Published: Oct. 19, 2023

[Editor’s note: This transcript was generated using both transcription software and a human’s light touch. It has been edited for style and clarity.]

Julie Rovner: Hello, and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Julie Rovner, chief Washington correspondent for KFF Health News, and I’m joined by some of the best and smartest health reporters in Washington. We’re taping this week on Thursday, Oct. 19, at 10 a.m. As always, news happens fast, and things might have changed by the time you hear this. So here we go. Today, we are joined via video conference by Alice Ollstein of Politico.

Alice Miranda Ollstein: Good morning,

Rovner: Lauren Weber of The Washington Post.

Lauren Weber: Hello, hello.

Rovner: And Joanne Kenen of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico.

Joanne Kenen: Hi, everybody.

Rovner: Later in this episode, we’ll have my interview with Arielle Zionts, who reported and wrote the latest KFF Health News-NPR “Bill of the Month” about how chemotherapy can cost five times more in one state than in another. But first this week’s news. So, it’s Oct. 19, the House of Representatives is still without a speaker. That’s 2½ weeks now. That means legislation can’t move. Are there health care items that are starting to stack up? And what would it mean if the House ends up with an anti-federal government conservative like Rep. Jim Jordan, who, at least as of this moment, is not yet the speaker and does not yet look like he has the votes?

Ollstein: So in terms of unfinished health care business, the three big things we are tracking are things that actually lapsed at the end of September. Congress did manage to keep the government open, but they allowed three big health care things to fall by the wayside, and those are PEPFAR, the global HIV/AIDS program, the SUPPORT Act, the programs for opioids and addiction, and PAHPA, the public health, pandemics, biohazards big bill. And so those …

Rovner: I think one of those P’s stands for “preparedness,” right?

Ollstein: Exactly, yes. But it’s related to pandemics, and you would think after all we just went through that that would be more of a priority, but here we are. The reauthorization of all three of those is just dangling out there and it’s unclear if and when Congress can act on them. There is some level of bipartisan support for all of them, but that is what is stacking up, and nothing is really happening on those fronts, according to my conversations with sources on the Hill because everything has just ground to a halt because of the speaker mess.

Rovner: And, of course, we’re less than a month away from the current continuing resolution running out again, and we may go through — who knows? They may get a new speaker and then he may lose his job or her job once they try to keep the government open in November. It’s a mess. I’ve never seen anything like this …

Kenen: Also, in addition to those three very political … even public health and pandemics are now politics … that Alice correctly pointed out, these three huge ideological, how are we going to get them reauthorized in the next 30 days? But there’s also more routine things that are not controversial but are caught up in this such as community health center funding, which has bipartisan support, but they need their apropos and all that stuff. So in addition to these sort of red-blue fights, there’s just, how do we keep the doors open for people who need access to health care? That’s not the only program. There are many day-to-day programs that like everything else in the government are up in the air.

Rovner: I mean, we should point out this is unprecedented. The only other time the House has been without a speaker this long was one year when they didn’t come in at the beginning of the Congress until later in January. It’s literally the only time. There’s never been a mid-session speakerless House. So everything that happens from here is unprecedented. Well, meanwhile, if you have turned on a TV in the past week, you already know this, but Medicare open enrollment began last Sunday, Oct. 15. To be clear, when you first become eligible for Medicare, you can sign up anytime in the three months before or after your birthday. But if you enroll in a private Medicare Advantage plan or a private prescription drug plan, and most people are in one or the other or both, open enrollment is when you can add or change coverage. This used to be pretty straightforward, but it’s only gotten more confusing as private plans have proliferated. This year the Biden administration is trying to fight back against some of the misleading marketing efforts. Politico reports that the government has rejected some 300 different ads. Is that enough to quell the confusion? I’m already seeing ads and kind of look at it, like, “I don’t think that says what it means to say.”

Weber: Yeah, we see this every year. It’s a ton of ads. It’s a barrage of ads that all say, “Hey, this plan is going to get you X, Y, Z, and that’s better than traditional Medicare.” But you got to read the fine print, and I think that is the big thing for all the folks that are looking at this every time. Open enrollment is very confusing, and a lot of times people are trying to sell you things that are not what they appear. So it does appear that there has been more movement to crack down on those ads. But look, the family members I talked to are still confused, so I don’t know how much that’s proliferating down quite yet.

Kenen: And even if the ads were honest, our health system is so confusing. Even if you’re at an employer health system. All of us are employed, all of us get insurance at work, and none of us really know we have made the best choice. I mean, you need a crystal ball to know what illness you and your relatives are going to get that year, and what the copays and deductibles for that specific condition. I’ve never been sure. I have three choices. They’re all decent, whether it’s the best for me and my family, with all that I know about health care, I still don’t know I made the best choice ’cause I don’t have a crystal ball or not one that works.

Rovner: Right. I also have choices, and I did my mom’s Medicare for years, as Joanne remembers …

Kenen: You did a great piece on that one.

Rovner: … this is the way I remember it. I did do a piece on that. Long time ago, when they were first starting the prescription drug benefit and you had to sort of sign up via a computer, and in 2006, not that many seniors knew how to use computers. At least we’re sort of over that, but there’s still complaints about the official website Medicare.gov, which does a pretty good job. It’s just got an awful lot of steps. It’s one of those things, it’s like, “OK, set aside two hours,” and that’s if you know what you’re doing to do this. So meanwhile, if this isn’t all confusing enough, open enrollment for the Affordable Care Act opens in two weeks, and while Medicare open enrollment ends Dec. 7, ACA enrollment goes through Jan. 15 in most, but not every, state. In both cases, if you get your insurance through Medicare or through the ACA, you should look to see what changes your plan might be making. I should say also, if it’s open enrollment for your employer insurance, plans make changes pretty much every year. So you may end up, even if you’re in the same plan, with a plan that you don’t like or a plan that you don’t like as much as you like it now. This is insanely complicated, as you point out, for everybody with insurance. Is there any way to make it easier?

Kenen: There’s no politically palatable way to make it easier. And then things they’ve done to try to make it easier, like consistent claims forms, which most of us don’t have to fill out anymore. Most of that’s done online, but they’re not using consistent claim forms and there’s nothing simple and there’s nothing that’s getting simpler. And we’re all savvy …

Rovner: It’s what keeps our “Bill of the Month” project in business.

Kenen: Right. We’re all pretty savvy and none of us are smart enough to solve every health care problem of us and our family.

Rovner: It’s one of those things where compromise actually makes for complexity. When policymakers can’t do something they really want to do, they do something smaller and more incremental. And so what you end up with is this built on, in every which way, kind of health care system that nobody knows how it works.

Kenen: Like the year I hurt both a finger and a toe. And I had a deductible for the finger, but not for the toe. Explain that!

Rovner: I assume it was in and out of network or not even.

Kenen: No. They were both in network. All of my digits are in network.

Weber: I just got a covid test bill from 2020 that I had previously knocked down by calling, but they rebilled me again. And because I am a savvy health care reporter, I was like, “I’m not paying this. I know that I don’t have to pay this.” But it took probably 10 hours to resolve, I mean, and that’s not even picking insurance. So I’m just saying it’s an incredibly complex marketplace. Shout-out to Vox who had a really nice series that tried to make it easier for people to understand the differences between Medicare and Medicare Advantage, open enrollment, what that all means. If you haven’t seen that and you’re confused about your insurance options, I would highly recommend it.

Rovner: And I will link to the Vox series, which is really good, but it was kind of looking at it. I mean, they had to write six different stories. It’s like that’s how confusing things are, which is really kind of sad here, but we will move on because we’re not going to solve this one today. So speaking of things that are complicated and getting more so, let’s turn to reproductive health. Alice, the big event that people on both sides are waiting for — one of those events, at least — is a ballot measure in Ohio that would establish a state constitutional right to abortion. So far, every state ballot measure we’ve seen has gone in favor of the abortions rights side. How are abortion opponents trying to flip the script here?

Ollstein: So I was in Ohio a couple of weeks ago and was really focused on that very question, just what are they doing differently? How are they learning lessons from all of the losses last year? And why do they think Ohio will be any different? I will say, since my piece came out, there was the first poll I’ve seen of how people are approaching the November referendum, and it showed overwhelming support for the abortion rights side, just like in every other state. So have that color, what I’m about to say next, which is that the anti-abortion side thinks they can win because they have a lot of structural factors working in their favor. They have the governor of Ohio really actively campaigning against the amendment. So that’s in contrast to [Gov. Gretchen] Whitmer in Michigan last year, campaigning actively for it. When you have a fairly popular governor, that does have an impact, they’re a known trusted voice to many. Also …

Rovner: And the governor of Ohio is also a former senator and I mean a really well-known guy.

Ollstein: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. You just have the entire state structure working to defeat this amendment. They tried in a special election in August to change the rules. That didn’t work. Now, you just have all of these top officials using their bully pulpit and their platforms to try to steer the vote in the anti-abortion direction. Also, the actual campaign itself is trying to learn lessons from last year and doing a few things differently. They’re going really aggressively after the African American vote, particularly through Black churches. And so that’s not something I saw in the states I reported on last year, and they’re really aggressively going after the student vote. And I went to a student campus event at Ohio State that the anti-abortion side was holding, and it seemed pretty effective. There was a ton of confusion among the students. A lot of the students are like, “Wait, didn’t we just vote on this?” referring to the August special. They said, “Wait a minute, which side means yes, and which side means no?” There was just rampant confusion, and it wasn’t helped … I observed the anti-abortion side, telling people some misleading things about what the amendment would and wouldn’t do. And so all of that could definitely have an impact. But like I said, since my story came out, a poll came out showing really strong support for the abortion rights amendment, which would block the state’s six-week ban, which is now held up in court, but the court leans pretty far to the right. This would block that from going back into effect potentially.

Rovner: Ohio, the ultimate swing state, probably the reddest swing state in the country. But Ohio is not the only state having an off-year election next month. Virginia doesn’t have an abortion measure on the ballot, but its entire state House and Senate are up for reelection. And from almost every ad I’ve seen from Democrats, it mentions abortion, and there’s a lot of ads here in the Washington, D.C., area for some of the Virginia elections. Republican Gov. Glenn Youngkin, who’s not on the ballot this year, thinks he has a way of talking about abortion that might give his side the edge. What are we going to be able to tell from the ultimate makeup of the very narrowly divided Virginia Legislature when this is all said and done?

Kenen: It won’t be veto-proof. Unlike North Carolina now, even if it’s the Democrats hold the one chamber they have or win both of them, and it’s really close. These are very closely divided, so we really don’t know how it’s going to turn out. But I mean he …

Rovner: One year it was so close that they literally had to draw rocks out of a bowl.

Kenen: Yeah, right. There’s highly unlikely that there will be a scenario where there’s a really strongly Democratic legislature with a Republican governor. That’s not likely. What’s likely is a very narrowly divided, and we don’t know who has the edge in which chamber. So the governor can’t just do things unilaterally, but how it plays out. And Youngkin’s backing a 15-week ban with some exceptions after that for life and health. A year ago, that would’ve seemed like an extreme measure. And now it seems moderate, I mean compared to zero weeks and no exceptions. So Virginia’s a red state, it’s swung blue. It’s now reddish again, I mean, it’s not a swing state so much in presidential, but on the ground, it’s a swing state. And …

Rovner: But I guess that’s what I was getting at was Youngkin’s trying to sort of paint his support as something moderate …

Kenen: That’s how he’s been trying to thread this needle ’cause he comes across as moderate and then he comes across as more conservative. And on abortion, what’s moderate now? I mean, in the current landscape among Republican governors, you could say his is moderate, but Alice follows the politics more closely, but half the country doesn’t think that’s moderate.

Rovner: If the Democrats retain or win both houses of the legislature, I mean, will that send us a message about abortion or is that just going to send us a message about Virginia being a very narrowly divided state?

Ollstein: I think both. I think Joanne is right in that the polling and the voting record over the last year reflect that a lot of people are not buying the idea that 15 weeks is moderate. And a lot of polls show that when presented the choice between a total ban and total protections, even people who are uncomfortable with the idea of abortions later in pregnancy opt for total protections. And so you’ve seen that play out. At the same time, there’s a lot of people on the right who correctly argue that the vast majority of abortions happen before 15 weeks, and so 15 weeks is not going far enough. And they’re not in favor of that as so-called compromise or moderate policy. And so …

Rovner: There are no compromises in abortion.

Ollstein: Truly, truly.

Rovner: If we’ve learned anything, we’ve learned that.

Ollstein: And when you try to please everyone, sometimes you please no one, as we’ve seen with both candidates and policies that try to thread this needle. And so I think it will be a really interesting test because yes, right now the legislature is sort of the firewall between what the governor wants to do on abortion, and whether that will continue to be true is a really interesting question.

Rovner: Meanwhile, we have dueling abortion reversal lawsuits going on in both Colorado and California. Abortion reversal, for those who don’t follow all the jargon, is the concept of interrupting the two-medication regime for abortion by pill. And instead of taking the second medication, the pregnant person takes large doses of the hormone progesterone. The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists says there is no evidence that this works to reverse a medication abortion and that it’s unethical for doctors to prescribe it. But in Colorado, a Christian health clinic is charging that a state law that bans the practice offering abortion reversal violates their freedom of religion. In California, it’s actually the opposite. The state attorney general is suing a pregnancy crisis center for false advertising, promoting the practice. Alice, how big a deal could this fight over abortion reversal become? And that’s assuming that the pill remains widely available, which is going to be decided by yet another lawsuit.

Ollstein: Yeah, absolutely. Although it’ll be a long time before we know whether mifepristone is legally available on a federal basis. But I’ve been watching this bubble up for years, but it’s up till now been more of a rhetorical fight in terms of: “Abortion reversal is a thing.” “No, it’s not.” “Yes, it is.” “No, it’s not.” “Here’s my expert saying it is.” “Here’s my expert saying it’s not.” But this is really moving it into a more sort of concrete, legal realm, and not just rhetoric. And so it is an escalation, and it will be interesting to see. Mainstream health care organizations do not support this practice. There was a clinical trial of it going on that was actually called off because of the potential dangers involved and risks to participants …

Rovner: Of doing the abortion reversal method …

Ollstein: Exactly. Yes.

Rovner: … of trying to interrupt a medication abortion.

Ollstein: Yes. This is really on the cutting edge of where medicine and politics are clashing right now.

Rovner: Yeah, we’ll see how it, and, of course, if they end up in different places, this could be something else that ends up in front of the Supreme Court. And this is, I think, less of an argument about religious freedom than an argument about the ability of medical organizations to determine what is or isn’t standard of practice based on evidence. I mean, I guess in some ways it becomes the same thing as the broader mifepristone case, where it’s like, do you trust the FDA to determine what’s safe? And now, it’s like, do you trust ACOG and the AMA [American Medical Association] and other organizations of doctors to decide what should be allowed?

Kenen: I mean, progesterone has medical purposes, it’s used to prevent miscarriages, but it’s off-label. It goes into these other questions, which all of us have written about — ivermectin, and who gets legal substances, and how do you use them properly, and what’s the danger? And there’s a bunch of them.

Weber: I think the fight over standard of care has really become the next frontier in medical lawsuits. I mean, we’ve all written about this, but ivermectin, obviously, misinformation, prescribing hydroxychloroquine, all of these things are now getting into the legal field. Is that the standard of care? What is the standard of care and how does that play out? So I agree with you. I think this is going to end up by the Supreme Court and I think it has much broader implications than just for mifepristone and abortion drugs too.

Rovner: Yeah, I do too. Well, finally, in an update I did not have on my post-Roe Bingo card, it appears that vasectomies are up in some states, including Oregon, where abortion is still legal, and Oklahoma, where it’s not very widely available. Are men finally taking more responsibility for not getting the women they have sex with pregnant? That would be a big sea change.

Ollstein: Yeah, we’ve been hearing anecdotally that this has been the case definitely since Dobbs and even before that as abortion restrictions were mounting. Politico Magazine did a nice piece on this last year profiling vasectomy [in] a mobile van. And it’s also just fascinating and a lot of people have been highlighting just how few restrictions on vasectomies there are compared to more permanent sterilization for women: no waiting periods, no fighting about it. And so it does provide an interesting contrast there.

Rovner: I know there have been stories over the years about how the demand for vasectomies goes up right before the NCAA tournament in March and April because men figure that they can just recuperate while watching basketball.

Ollstein: I thought that was a myth then I looked it up and it’s absolutely true.

Rovner: It is absolutely true.

Kenen: I mean, it also seems to be more common among older men who’ve had a family and because it’s permanent, I mean usually permanent. It’s usually permanent and right, it’s one thing to decide after a certain point in your life when you’ve already had your kids. I mean, it’s not going to be an option for younger men who haven’t had children.

Rovner: It’s also reliable, it is one of those things that you don’t have to worry about.

Kenen: Even though I looked up the figures once, it’s a very, very low failure rate, but it’s not zero.

Rovner: True. We are moving on to what I call this week in declining life expectancy. I’m glad that Lauren is back with us because The Washington Post has published the next pieces of its deep dive into the U.S. population’s declining life expectancy. And we’re going to start with a story that was co-written by Lauren, but that is Joanne’s extra credit this week. So Joanne, you start, and then Lauren, you can chime in.

Kenen: OK. It’s “How Lunchables Ended Up on School Lunch Trays.” For those of you who have never been in a supermarket or who have closed your eyes in certain aisles, Lunchables are heavily processed, encased in plastic, small lunchboxes of a — it’s not even much of a meal or small — which you can buy in the supermarket. And now two of them have been modified so that they’re allowed in schools as healthy enough …

Rovner: They’re quote, unquote, “balanced” because it’s a little piece of meat and a little piece of cheese.

Kenen: They have so far just a turkey cheese option that qualifies for schools and a pizza that qualifies for schools. Not a whole pizza, a little … but the kid in the story, the second grader in the story, didn’t even know it was turkey. It has 14 ingredients. He thought it was ham. So I mean, that just sort of says it, but it’s beyond the lack of nutrition, it started out sort of like what is this child putting in his mouth and why is it called school lunch? But the story was deeper because it was a very long investigation by Lauren and Dan Keating on the relationship between the food industry, the trade group, and the government regulation. And just say, it leaves a lot to be desired. And you should all read the story only because you can click on the story of the oversized Cheez-It.

I mean, it’s a fake one, but the replica of this as big as the planet Mars. I mean, it’s just this huge Cheez-It. And it’s a really good story because it’s overprocessed food is really bad for us. And I mean, scientists have matched the rise of this overprocessed stuff that began as food and the rise of obesity in America. And it’s not just taking the salt out of it, which they’re doing, the sodium out of or adding a little calcium or something to these processed foods. They’re ultra-processed foods, and that’s not what our body needs.

Rovner: So, Lauren, I mean, how does this relate to the rest of this declining life expectancy project and what else is there to come?

Weber: This is our big tranche of stories. I mean, we should have some follows, but that’s it. And well, Joanne, thank you for the kind words on it. We really appreciate that. But I mean, I think the point that she made that I want to highlight for this in general is what was wild in investigating this story is pizza sauce is a vegetable in the U.S. when it comes to school lunch and french fries are also a vegetable. And that’s really all you need to sum up how the industry influence in Congress has resulted in what kids are having for their school lunch today. One of the things we got to do for the story is go to the national School Nutrition Association conference, which is where we saw the giant Cheez-It. And it’s this massive trade fair of all these companies where they throw parties for the school nutrition personnel to try all the different food. And it’s wild to see in real life. And what Joanne made a good point of about ultra-processed food and what the rules do right now is they don’t consider the integrity of the food. They set limits on calories and sodium, but they don’t consider what kids are actually eating. And so you end up with these ultra-processed foods that growing body of research suggests really have some negative health consequences for you. And so, as Joanne talked about, and as our series gets into, obesity is a real problem in this country, and obesity has huge, long-lasting, life-shortening impacts. One of the folks we talked to for the piece, Michael Moss, said, he worries that processed food is the new tobacco because he feels like smoking’s going down, but obesity’s going up. And something he said to me that didn’t make the piece, but I thought was really interesting is that at some point he thinks there’ll be some sort of class-action lawsuit against ultra-processed food, much like a cigarette lawsuit-

Rovner: Like with tobacco.

Weber: Like a tobacco lawsuit, like an opioid lawsuit. I think that’s kind of interesting to think about, but this was just one of the many life expectancy stories. I want to shout out my colleague Frances Stead Sellers’ story, which talked about how it compared is brilliant. It compared two sisters with rheumatoid arthritis, one who lives in the U.S. and one who lives in Portugal. They’re both from Portugal. The one in Portugal has all this fabulous primary health care. The doctors even call her on Christmas and they’re like, “We’re worried you’re going to have chocolate cherries with brandy that would interact with your medicine.” Whereas the one in the U.S. has to go to the ER all the time because she doesn’t have steady health care and she can’t seem to make it work, ends meet. She doesn’t have a primary health care system. She’s a disjointed doctor system. And the end of the story is the sister in the U.S. who has this severe health problem is moving to Portugal because it’s just so much better there for primary care. And I think that gets at a lot of what our stories on life expectancy have talked about, which is that primary care, preventative care in the U.S. is not a priority and it results in a lot of downstream consequences that are shortening America’s life expectancy.

Rovner: Well, I hope when this project is all published that you put all the stories together and send them to every school of public health in the United States. That would be fairly useful. I bet public health professors would appreciate it.

Weber: Thank you.

Rovner: So it is mid-October, that means it is time for the annual KFF survey of employer health insurance. And for the first time since the pandemic, most premiums are up markedly, an average of 7% from 2022 to 2023 with indications of even larger increases coming for 2024. Now, to people like me and Joanne, who’ve been doing this for a long time, lived through years of double-digit increases in the early 2000s, 7% doesn’t seem that big, but today, the average family health insurance premium is about the same as the cost of a small car. So is there a breaking point for the employer health system? I mean, one of the things — to go back to what we were talking about at the beginning — one of the compromised ways we’ve kept the system functional is by allowing these pieces to remain in pieces. Employers have wanted to offer health insurance. It’s an important fringe benefit to help attract workers. But you’re paying $25,000 a year for a family plan, unless you’re a really big company. And even if you are a really big company, that’s an awful lot of money.

Kenen: One of the things that struck me is, we’re at a point when we’ve had a lot of strikes and reactivated labor movement, but 20 years ago, the fights were about the cost of health care. The famous Verizon strike. They were big strikes that were about health care, the cost. And right now, I’m not really hearing that too much. I’m sure it’s part of the conversation, but it’s not the top. It’s not the headline of what these strikes are about. They’re about salaries mostly and working conditions with nurses and ratios and things like that. I’m not hearing health care costs, but I sort of think we will because, yes, we are being subsidized by our employers, most of us. But you said, “What’s the breaking point?” Well, apparently there isn’t one. We’ve asked ourselves that every single year. And when do we stop doing it? No one has a good answer for that. And related is to what Lauren was just talking about, life expectancy. The lack of primary care in this country, in addition to improving our health, it would probably bring down cost. We used to spend 6 cents on the dollar on primary care, 6 cents. Other countries spend a lot more. Now, we’re down to 4.5 cents. So the stuff that keeps you well and spots problems and has somebody who recognizes when something’s going wrong in you because you’re their patient as opposed to … there’s nothing. I don’t mean that urgent care doesn’t have a place. It does, but it’s not the same thing as somebody who gives you continuity of care. So these are all related. I’ll stop. It’s a mess. Someone else can say it’s a mess now.

Rovner: It’s definitely a mess and we are not going to fix it today, but we’ll keep trying.

Kenen: Maybe next week.

Rovner: All right. Yeah, maybe next week. That is this week’s news. Now, we will play my “Bill of the Month” interview with Arielle Zionts. And then we will come back and do our extra credits.

I am pleased to welcome to the podcast my KFF Health News colleague Arielle Zionts who reported and wrote the latest KFF Health News-NPR “Bill of the Month” installment. Arielle, welcome to the podcast.

Arielle Zionts: Thanks for having me.

Rovner: So this month’s patient is grappling with a grave cancer diagnosis, a toddler, and some inexplicable bills from hospitals in two different states. Tell us a little bit about her.

Zionts: Sure. So Emily Gebel is from Alaska and has a husband and two young kids. She home-schools them. She really likes the outdoors, reading, foraging, and she was diagnosed with breast cancer. Just something that makes me so sad is she found out when she was basically breastfeeding because she felt a lump. And then when she was diagnosed, her baby was asleep in her arms when she got that call. So it just really shows what it’s like to be a mom and to have cancer. She was living in Juneau at the time. Her friends who’ve had cancer suggested [they] wanted to go to a bigger city. Whether it’s true or not, the idea was, OK, bigger cities are going to have bigger care. Juneau is not a big city, and you cannot drive there. You have to take a ferry or you have to fly in, and this is the capital of Alaska. So that might …

Rovner: Yes, I’ve been there. It’s very picturesque and very small and very hard to get to.

Zionts: Yeah, so that might be surprising for some people. The closest major American city is Seattle. So she went there for her surgery and then she decided to have chemo, and she opted for this special type of chemo that uses lower dose, but more frequent doses. The idea is that it creates less of the side effects, and she went to this standalone clinic in Seattle, flying there every week. It’s not a quick flight. It can take up to two hours and 45 minutes. And that just got really tiring. I mean, physically …

Rovner: And she’s got kids at home.

Zionts: Yes, physically and mentally and just taking up time. So she decided to switch to the local hospital in Juneau. So they had bills from the first clinic in Seattle, and then they got some estimates from the one in Juneau and then finally got a bill from there as well.

Rovner: Yes, as we say, “Then the bill came.” And, boy, there was a big difference between the same chemotherapy in Seattle and in Juneau, Alaska, right?

Zionts: I compared two of Emily’s treatments that used a similar mix of drugs and also had overlapping non-drug charges, such as how much it costs for the first hour of treatment, subsequent hours. And in the Seattle clinic, one round cost about $1,600. And then in Juneau it cost more than $5,000, so more than three times higher. And we were able to look at specific charges. So that first hour of chemo was $1,000 in Juneau, which is more than twice the rate in the Seattle clinic. There was a drug that cost more than three times the price at the clinic. And then even the cheaper charges were more expensive. So the hospital charged $19.15 for Benadryl, which is about 22 times the price at the clinic, which was 87 cents.

Rovner: Now to be clear, the Gebel family seems to have pretty comprehensive insurance. So this case wasn’t as much about their out-of-pocket costs as some of the other Bills of the Month that we’ve covered, but they did want to know why there was such a big difference, and what did they, and we find out?

Zionts: Yeah. So we started the story for NPR, we basically started saying, “Hey, this is a little different than the other ones because the family has met their maximum out-of-pocket.”

Rovner: For the year?

Zionts: Yes. Once you pay a certain amount of money for the year, your insurance will cover everything, and that can be a high number. But if you have cancer, cancer’s expensive, so you will probably hit it at some point. By the time she switched her treatment to Juneau, she had met that, so she wouldn’t actually owe anything.

Rovner: But what did they find out nevertheless, about why it costs that much more in Juneau than it did in Seattle?

Zionts: Yes. So Jered, her husband, he is somewhat of a self-taught medical billing expert. He gained this knowledge by listening to “Bill of the Month” and then reading some books about this. I mean, at first, he thought maybe they would owe money, but then he learned they wouldn’t. But he still didn’t think it was fair. I mean, he didn’t think it was fair for the insurance companies. And he did catch two errors. One of them, an estimate, was wrong. The hospital said, “Oh, it looks like there was a computer error,” and that was lowered. And then when it came for the actual bill, there was a coding error. It made one of the drugs not covered when it should have been. So that would’ve actually left them out-of-pocket costs. So he was able to lower an estimate, lower the bill. But again, even with those changes, it was still so much more expensive. And that’s when I called some experts and someone’s gut reaction or initial hypothesis might be, “Well, of course, it’s more expensive in Alaska. Alaska is small, it’s remote. I mean, it’s just going to cost more to ship things there. You need to pay doctors more to entice them to live there.”

Rovner: And it costs more for doctors to live there anyway, right?

Zionts: Yes.

Rovner: The cost of living is high in Alaska.

Zionts: Yes. The expert I spoke with, an economist who has studied this issue. He said, “Yes, that is part of it.” Like you said, everything is more expensive in Alaska, but even when accounting for that, the prices are even higher. So the growth of cost in the health care sector in Alaska is higher than the growth of overall cost. And he listed some policies or trends that might explain that. There’s one that really stood out, which is something called the “80th percentile rule,” but it was meant to contain cost for when you’re seen by out-of-network providers. And it seems that it may have actually backfired, and the state is considering repealing that. But as Elisabeth Rosenthal, one of our editors at KFF Health News, and she’s written an entire book about this, as she said, “This is how our health system works. There’s no law saying, this is how much you can upcharge for some intrinsic value of a medicine or of a service. So hospitals can do what they want.” So …

Rovner: And we should point out, I mean, this is not a for-profit hospital, right? It’s owned by the city.

Zionts: Yes. This is a nonprofit hospital owned by the city, and they don’t get a ton of money from the city or state, which is interesting though. So they’re really getting their funding from the services they provide. And the hospital said they try to make it fair by comparing it to wholesale costs, what other hospitals in the region are charging. But they also said, “Yes, we do need to account for the higher costs.”

Rovner: So what’s the takeaway here? I mean, basically what it costs is going to depend on where you live?

Zionts: Basically, what we’ve learned from all these Bill of the Months is that it’s going to vary depending on what facility you go to. And that could be within one city, the prices could vary. And then you might see some more variation between states and especially in states where the cost of living is higher or it’s more remote.

Rovner: Of which Alaska is both.

Zionts: Yes. And actually, something to add is that the amount of money that this hospital has to spend to fly in doctors and nurses and also just staff, even nonmedical staff, they spent nearly $11 million last year to transport them and pay them because they don’t have enough local people. And the other takeaway, though, is that yes, this can be explained, but also, it’s unexplainable in the sense that our health care system doesn’t have some magic formula or some hard rules about what is, quote, “fair.”

Rovner: Yes, at least when it comes to Medicare, Congress has been trying to do that for, oh, I don’t know, about 50 years now. Still working on it. Arielle Zionts, thank you very much for joining us.

Zionts: Thank you for having me.

Rovner: OK. We are back, and it’s time for our extra-credit segment. That’s when we each recommend a story we read this week we think you should read, too. As always, don’t worry if you miss it. We will post the links on the podcast page at kffhealthnews.org and in our show notes on your phone or other mobile device. Joanne, you’ve already done yours. Alice, why don’t you go next?

Ollstein: I did a piece by my former colleague Angela Hart for KFF Health News, and it’s about street medicine. So teams of doctors working with unhoused people, and this is profiling mainly in Northern California, but it’s sort of discussing this across the country. And in addition to the really very moving personal stories that she found in her reporting, she also talked about some of the structural stuff that is supporting the expansion of this kind of health care. And so California was already putting a lot of money into health care services for the homeless, but in hospitals and in clinics, they were finding that people just aren’t able to come in. Whether it’s because they don’t want to leave all of their earthly possessions unguarded or because they can’t get the transportation or whatever. And so that money’s now being redirected into having the doctors go to them, which seems to be successful in some ways, but the depth of health care problems is just so deep. And …

Rovner: But also, really the importance of primary care.

Ollstein: Absolutely. And so what they’re finding is just a lot of pregnancies and problems with pregnancy in the homeless population. And so they’re doing more services around that and more offering contraception and prenatal care for the people who are already pregnant. It’s very sad, but somewhat hopeful. And the other more structural thing is changing rules so that doctors can get reimbursed at a decent rate for providing street medicine as opposed to in brick-and-mortar facilities.

Rovner: Thanks. Lauren?

Weber: So I also have a KFF special from my former colleagues, Markian [Hawryluk] and Renu [Rayasam]. It’s just a great piece. It’s called “Doctors Abandon a Diagnosis Used to Justify Police Custody Deaths. It Might Live On, Anyway.” So what the piece does is it interviews the doctor who helped debunk what excited delirium is for his medical organization, but it reveals that that may not help in terms of court cases that have already been decided and in terms of science in general. And I think it’s so fascinating because what this piece does is it gets at what happens when flawed science then is used for lawsuits and consequential things for many, many years to come. I think we’ve seen a lot of stories this year about flawed science and what the actual ramifications are after, and this is clearly horrible ramifications here. And it’s just kind of a fascinating question of how does that ever get made right and how do things slowly or ever go back to what they should be after flawed science is revealed? So really, really great work from the team.

Rovner: Yeah, it’s really good piece. Well, keeping with the theme of choosing stories by our former colleagues. Mine is from a former colleague at NPR, Jeff Brady, and it’s “How Gas Utilities Used Tobacco Tactics to Avoid Gas Stove Regulations.” And if you don’t know what that refers to, I have a book or several for you about the huge sums of money that the tobacco industry paid over many decades to have captive, scientific, quote-unquote, “experts” counterclaims that smoking is bad for your health. It turns out that the gas stove industry likewise knew that gas stoves were worse for your health than electric ones, and that those vent hoods don’t really take care of all the problems of the things that gas stoves emit. And that it also paid for studies intended to muddy the waters and confuse both customers and regulators. It’s a pretty damning story, and I say that as someone who is very much attached to my gas stove but am now having second thoughts.

OK, that is our show for this week. As always, if you enjoy the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left us a review; that helps other people find us too. Special thanks as always to our amazing and patient engineer, Francis Ying. Also, as always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org, or you can still find me holding down the fort at X, I’m @jrovner or @julierovner at Bluesky and Threads. Joanne, where are you these days?

Kenen: I’m more on Threads, @joannekenen1. I still have a Twitter account, @JoanneKenen, where I’m not very active.

Rovner: Alice?

Ollstein: I am @AliceOllstein on X and @alicemiranda on Bluesky.

Rovner: Lauren?

Weber: I’m @LaurenWeberHP on X, the HP stands for health policy, as I like to tell people.

Rovner: We will be back in your feed next week. Until then, be healthy.

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Julie Rovner is chief Washington correspondent and host of KFF Health News’ weekly health policy news podcast, “What the Health?” A noted expert on health policy issues, Julie is the author of the critically praised reference book “Health Care Politics and Policy A to Z,” now in its third edition.

This week, while KFF Health News’ “What the Health?” takes a break, here’s an encore of a favorite episode this year: Host and chief Washington correspondent Julie Rovner leads a rare conversation with the current and two former secretaries of Health and Human Services. Taped in June before a live audience at Aspen Ideas: Health, part of the Aspen Ideas Festival, in Aspen, Colorado, Secretary Xavier Becerra and two of his predecessors, Kathleen Sebelius and Alex Azar, talk candidly about what it takes to run a department with more than 80,000 employees and a budget larger than those of many countries.

Among the takeaways from this week’s episode, originally aired in June:

• The Department of Health and Human Services is much more than a domestic agency. It also plays a key role in national security, the three HHS secretaries explained, describing the importance of the “soft diplomacy” of building and supporting health systems abroad.
• Each HHS secretary — Sebelius, who served under former President Barack Obama; Azar, who served under former President Donald Trump; and Becerra, the current secretary, under President Joe Biden — offered frank, sobering, and even funny stories about interacting with the White House. “Anything you thought you were going to do during the day often got blown up by the White House,” Sebelius said. Asked what he was unprepared for when he started the job, Azar quipped: “The Trump administration.”
• Identifying their proudest accomplishments as the nation’s top health official, Azar and Becerra both cited their work responding to the covid-19 pandemic, specifically Operation Warp Speed, the interagency effort to develop and disseminate vaccines, and H-CORE, which Becerra described as a quiet successor to Warp Speed. They also each touted their respective administrations’ efforts to regulate tobacco.
• Having weathered recent debates over the separation of public policy and politics at the top health agency, the panel discussed how they’ve approached balancing the two in decision-making. For Becerra, the answer was unequivocal: “We use the facts and the science. We don’t do politics.”

Click to open the transcript

Transcript: An Encore: 3 HHS Secretaries on What the Job Is Really Like

[Editor’s note: This transcript, generated using transcription software, has been edited for style and clarity.]

Julie Rovner: Hello “What the Health?” listeners. We’re taking this week off from the news while KFF holds an all-staff retreat. We’ll be back next week, but in the meantime, here’s an encore of one of our favorite episodes of the year — a chat with three Health and Human Services Secretaries. We’ll be back next week with our regular news roundup.

Hello and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Julie Rovner, coming to you this week from the Aspen Ideas: Health conference in Aspen, Colorado. We have a cool special for you this week. For the first time, the current secretary of Health and Human Services sat down for a joint interview with two of his predecessors. This was taped before a live audience on Wednesday evening, June 21, in Aspen. So, as we like to say, here we go.

Hello. Good evening. Welcome to Aspen Ideas: Health. I’m Julie Rovner. I’m the chief Washington correspondent for KFF Health News and also host of KFF Health News’ health policy podcast, “What the Health?,” which you are now all the audience for, so thank you very much. I’m sure these people with me need no introduction, but I’m going to introduce them anyway because I think that’s required.

Immediately to my left, we are honored to welcome the current U.S. secretary of Health and Human Services, Xavier Becerra. Secretary Becerra is the first Latino to serve in this post. He was previously attorney general of the state of California. And before that, he served in the U.S. House of Representatives for nearly 25 years, where, as a member of the powerful Ways and Means Committee, he helped draft and pass what’s now the Affordable Care Act. Thank you for joining us.

Next to him, we have Kathleen Sebelius, who served as secretary during the Obama administration from 2009 to 2014, where she also helped pass and implement the Affordable Care Act. I first met Secretary Sebelius when she was Kansas’ state insurance commissioner, a post she was elected to twice. She went on to be elected twice as governor of the state, which is no small feat in a very red state for a Democrat. Today, she also consults on health policy and serves on several boards, including — full disclosure — that of my organization, KFF. Thank you so much for being here.

And on the end we have Alex Azar, who served as HHS secretary from 2018 to 2021 and had the decidedly mixed privilege of leading the department through the first two years of the covid pandemic, which I’m sure was not on his to-do list when he took the job. At least Secretary Azar came to the job with plenty of relevant experience. He’d served in the department previously as HHS deputy secretary and as general counsel during the George W. Bush administration and later as a top executive at U.S. drugmaker Eli Lilly. Today, he advises a health investment firm, teaches at the University of Miami Herbert Business School, and sits on several boards, including the Aspen Institute’s. So, thank you.

Former Secretary of Health and Human Services Alex Azar: Thank you.

Rovner: So I know you’re not here to listen to me, so we’re going to jump in with our first question. As I’m sure we will talk about in more detail, HHS is a vast agency that includes, just on the health side, agencies including the Food and Drug Administration, the National Institutes of Health, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, and the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services. The department has more than 80,000 employees around the country and throughout the world and oversees more than one and a half trillion dollars of federal funding each year. I want to ask each of you — I guess we’ll start with you — what is the one thing you wish the public understood about the department that you think they don’t really now?

Secretary of Health and Human Services Xavier Becerra: Given everything you just said, I wish people would understand that the Constitution left health care to the states. And so, as big as we are and as much as we do — Medicare, Medicaid, CHIP [Children’s Health Insurance Program], Obamacare — we still don’t control or drive health care. The only way we get in the game is when we put money into it. And that’s why people do Medicare, because we put money into it. States do Medicaid because we put money into it. And it became very obvious with covid that the federal government doesn’t manage health care. We don’t have a national system of health or public health. We have a nationwide system of public health where 50 different states determine what happens, and so one state may do better than another, and we’re out there trying to make it work evenhandedly for everyone in America. But it’s very tough because we don’t have a national system of public health.

Rovner: Secretary, what’s the thing that you wish people understood about HHS?

Former Secretary of Health and Human Services Kathleen Sebelius: Well, I agree with what Secretary Becerra has said, but it always made me unhappy that people don’t understand fully, I don’t think, the international role that HHS plays, and it is so essential to the safety and security and resilience of the United States. So we have employees across the world. CDC has employees in about 40 other countries, and helping to build health systems in various parts of the world, sharing information about how you stand up a health system, what a great hospital looks like. NIH does experiments and clinical trials all over the globe and is regarded as the gold standard. And we actually, I think, at HHS were able to do what they call soft diplomacy. And a lot of countries aren’t eager to have the State Department involved. They’re certainly not eager to see soldiers. Our trade policies make some people uncomfortable. But they welcome health professionals. They welcome the opportunity to learn from the United States. So it’s really a way often to get into countries and make friendships. And we need to monitor across the globe, as covid showed so well. When an outbreak happens someplace else in the world, we can’t wait for it to arrive on the border of the United States. Safety and security of American citizens really depends on global information exchange, a global surveillance exchange. The CDC has also trained epidemiologists in regions around the world so that they can be faster and share information. And I think too often in Congress, those line items for foreign trips, for offices elsewhere, people say, “Well, we don’t really need that. We should focus all our attention on America.” But I’ve always thought, if folks really understood how integral it is not just to our health security, but really national security, that we have these partnerships — and it’s, as I say, I think the best soft diplomacy and the cheapest soft diplomacy underway is to send health professionals all over the globe and to make those friendships.

Rovner: Do you think people understand that better since covid?

Sebelius: Maybe. You know, but some people reacted, unfortunately, to covid, saying, “Well, we put up bigger walls, and we” — I mean, no disease needs a passport, no wall stops things from coming across our borders. And I’m not sure that still is something that people take to heart.

Rovner: Secretary Azar, you actually have the most — in terms of years — experience at the department. What is it that people don’t know that they should?

Azar: So I probably would have led with what Secretary Becerra said about just how highly decentralized the public health infrastructure and leadership and decision-making is in the United States. I mean, it really — all those calls are made, and it’s not even just the 50 states. It’s actually 62 public health jurisdictions, because we separately fund a whole series of cities. I’ll concur in that. I’d say the other thing that people probably don’t understand, and maybe this is too inside baseball, is the secretary of HHS is, on the one hand, probably the most powerful secretary in the Cabinet and, on the other hand, also quite weak. So literally every authority, almost every authority, in the thousands and thousands of pages of U.S. statute that empower programs at HHS, say, “The secretary shall …” So the FDA, the CDC, CMS, all of these programs really operate purely by delegation of the secretary, because Secretary Becerra allows them to make decisions or to run programs. They are his authorities. And so the media, then, when the secretary acts, will … [unintelligible] … “How dare you,” you know, “how dare you be involved in this issue or that issue?” Well, it is legally and constitutionally Secretary Becerra’s job. And, on the other hand, you are supervising — it’s like a university, because you’re also supervising operating divisions that are global household brands. It is really like being a university president, for all that’s good and evil of that. You have to lead by consensus. You have to lead by bringing people along. You are not a dictator, in spite of what the U.S. statutes say. It’s very, very similar to that — that you, the secretary, is both powerful, but also has to really lead a highly matrixed, consensus-based organization to get things done.

Rovner: You’re actually leading perfectly into my next question, which is, how do you juggle all the moving pieces of this department? Just putting the agency heads in one room could fill a room this size. So tell us what sort of an average day for each of you would look like as secretary, if there’s such a thing as an average day.

Azar: Well, first, not an average administration, so take with a grain of salt my average day. So, interspersed among the two to five phone calls with the president of the United States between 7 a.m. and midnight, you know, other than that, um — I started every day meeting with my — you know, as secretary, you’ve got to have a team around you that’s not just your operating divisions, but I would start every morning — we would have just a huddle with chief of staff, deputy chief of staff, my head of public affairs. Often my general counsel would join that, my legislative leader. Just what’s going to hit us in the face today? Like, what are we trying to do, and what’s going to hit us in the face today? Just a situational awareness, every morning at about 8 a.m., quick huddle on that, and then diving into really the rhythm of the day of — I tried to drive — I use a book that I helped actually do some of the work on called “The 4 Disciplines of Execution,” just a tool of how do you focus and drive change in very complex organizations? So I tried to focus on four key initiatives that I spent as much of my time as secretary on leading and pushing on, and so I tried to make sure as much of my time was doing that. But then it’s reactive. You’re having to go to White House meetings constantly. You have to sign off on every regulation at the department. And so you’re in meetings just getting briefed and deciding approve or disapprove, so that rhythm constantly, and then add travel in, add evening commitments, add speeches. I’d say the biggest challenge you have as a leader in HHS is that first point of, focus, because you could be like a bobber on the water, just going with whatever’s happening, if you don’t have a maniacally focused agenda of, “I’ve got a limited amount of time. I’m going to drive change here. And if I don’t spend time every day pushing the department on this issue, being basically a burr in the saddle to make it happen, it won’t.” And you’ve just got to constantly be on that.

Rovner: Secretary Sebelius, what did your average day look like?

Sebelius: Well, I’m not going to repeat what Alex has just said. A lot of that goes on in the daily routine. First of all, I think all of us would be sent home the night before with a binder of materials — briefings for what you’re going to do the next day. So you may have 10 meetings, but each of those has a 20-page brief behind it. And then what the issues are, what the questions might be. So that’s your homework often that you’re leaving with at 7 or 8 at night. I like to run in the morning, and I would get up, read my schedule, and then go out and run on the [National] Mall because it sort of cleared my head. I’m proud of having — some of the folks may still be here — none of the detail ran before I started running, and my deal with them was, “I’m much older than you are, you know. We’re all going to run.”

Azar: They still —

Sebelius: Oh, here we go.

Azar: They still talk about it.

Sebelius: Well, one of them got to be a great marathon runner, you know. Can’t hurt. One guy started riding a bike, and I was like, “What are you doing?” I mean, if I fall, what are you going to do with the bike? I mean, am I going to carry it, are you going to carry it? I mean, who — anyway, so I started that way. You’d go then into the office. And one of the things that was not mentioned is HHS has an amazing, camera-ready studio, TV studio, that lots of other Cabinet agencies used. It has a setting that looks like “The View.” It has a stool that you can look in cameras, but two or three days a week we would do what they call “Around the Country.” So you would sit in a stool, and I’d be doing updates on the ACA or a pitch to enrollment or something about a disease, and you would literally have a cue card up that would say “Minneapolis, Andrea.” And I would say, “Good morning, Andrea.” And we would do a two-second spot in Minneapolis and they’d have numbers for me and then the camera would switch and it would be Bob in St. Louis. “Hello, Bob. How are you?” So that was a morning start that’s a little bit different. Anything you thought you were going to do during the day often got blown up by the White House: somebody calling, saying, you know, “The president wants this meeting,” “the vice president’s calling this.” So then the day gets kind of rearranged. And I think the description of who the key staff are around, but 12 operating agencies — any one of them could be a much more than full-time job. So just getting to know the NIH or, you know, seeing what CDC in Atlanta does every day, but trying to keep the leadership in touch, in tune, and make sure that — one of the things that, having been a governor and working with Cabinet agencies, that I thought was really important, is everybody has some input on everything. These are the stars, the agency heads. They know much more about health and their agencies than I would ever know. But making sure that I have their input and their lens on every decision that was made. So we had regular meetings where the flatter the organization, the better, as far as I’m concerned. They were all there and they gave input into policy decisions. But it is not a boring job and it’s never done. You just had to say at the end of the day, with this giant book, “OK, that’s enough for today. I’ll start again tomorrow, and there’ll be another giant book and here we go.”

Rovner: And your day, since you’re doing it now?

Becerra: I don’t know if it’s the pleasure or the bane of starting off virtually. Almost everything we did was via Zoom. I didn’t meet many of my team until months into the term because we were in the midst of covid. So we would start the days usually pretty early in the morning with Zooms and it would go one Zoom after the other. Of course, once we started doing more in-person activities, schedulers still thought they could schedule you pretty much one right after the other, and so they pack in as much as they can. I think all of us would say we’re just blessed to have some of the most talented people. I see Commissioner Califf from the FDA over there in the room. I will tell you, it’s just a yes … [applause] … . It’s a blessing to get to serve with these folks. They are the best in their fields. And you’re talking about some pretty critical agencies, FDA, NIH, CDC, CMS. I mean, the breadth, the jurisdiction, of CMS is immense. They do fabulous work. They are so committed. And so it makes it a lot easier. And then, of course, we all — we each have had — I have my group of counselors who are essentially my captains of the different agencies, and they help manage, because without that it would be near-impossible. And these are people who are younger, but my God, they’re the folks that every CEO looks for to sort of help manage an agency, and they’re so committed to the task. And so I feel like a kid in a candy store because I’m doing some of the things that I worked on so long when I was a member of Congress and could never get over the finish line. Now I get to sort of nudge everything over the finish line, and it really is helpful, as Alex said, to remind people that the statute does say, “The secretary shall … ,” not someone else, “the secretary shall … .” And so, at the end of the day, you get to sort of weigh it. And so it’s a pleasure to work with very talented, committed people.

Sebelius: Julie, I want to throw in one more thing, because I think this is back to what people don’t know, but it’s also about our days. There’s an assumption, when administrations change, the whole agency changes, right? Washington all changes. In a department like HHS, 90,000 employees scattered in the country and around the world, there are about 900 total political appointees, and they are split among all the agencies and the secretary’s office there. So you’re really talking about this incredibly talented team of professionals who are running those agencies and have all the health expertise, with the few people across the top that may try to change directions and put — but I think there’s an assumption that sort of the whole group sweeps out and somebody else sweeps in, and that really is not the case.

Rovner: So, as I mentioned, all three of you had relevant government experience before you came to HHS. Secretary Sebelius, you were a governor, so you knew about running a large organization. I want to ask all three of you, did you really understand what you were getting into when you became secretary? And is there some way to grow up to become HHS secretary?

Azar: I mean, yeah, I — yeah, I have no excuse. My first day, right after getting sworn in — the secretary has a private elevator that goes directly up to the sixth floor where the suite is, the deputy secretary’s office to the right, secretary to the left — my first day, I’m up, headed up with my security detail, and I get off and I walk off to the right. “Mr. Secretary, no, no, no. It’s this way.” Literally, it was like — it had been 11 years, but it was like coming home to me. I was literally about to walk into my old office as deputy secretary, and they show me to the secretary’s office. And I think for the first three months, I kept thinking Tommy Thompson or Mike Leavitt was going to walk in and say, “Get the hell out of my office.” And no, so it, and it was the same people, as Secretary Sebelius said. I knew all the top career people. I’d worked with them over the course of — in and out of government — 20 years. So it was very much a “coming home” for me. And it was many of the same issues were still the same issues. Sustainable growth rate — I mean, whatever else, it was all the same things going on again, except the ACA was new. That was a new nice one you gave me to deal with also. So, yeah, thank you.

Sebelius: You’re welcome. We had to have something new.

Rovner: What were you unprepared for when you took on this job?

Azar: Well, for me, the Trump administration.

Rovner: Yeah, that’s fair.

Azar: I, you know, had come out of the Bush administration. You’re at Eli Lilly. I mean, you know, you’re used to certain processes and ways people interact. And, you know, it’s just — it was different.

Sebelius: I had a pretty different experience. The rhythm of being a governor and being a Cabinet secretary is pretty similar. Cabinet agencies, working with the legislative process, the budget. So I kind of had that sense. I had no [Capitol] Hill experience. I had not worked on the Hill or served on the Hill, so that was a whole new entity. You’re not by protocol even allowed in the department until you’re confirmed. So I had never even seen the inside of the office. I mean, Alex talked about being confused about which way to turn. I mean, I had no idea [about] anything on the sixth floor. I hadn’t ever been there. My way of entering the department — I was President [Barack] Obama’s second choice. [Former South Dakota Democratic Senator] Tom Daschle had been nominated to be HHS secretary. And that was fine with me. And I said, “I’m a governor. I’ve got two more years in my term. I’ll join you sometime.” And then when Sen. Daschle withdrew, the president came back to me and said, “OK, how about, would you take this job if you’re able to get it?” And I said, “Yes, that’s an agency that’s interesting and challenging.” So I still was a governor, so I was serving as governor, flying in and out of D.C. to get briefings so I could go through hearings on this department that I didn’t know a lot about and had never really worked with, and then would go back and do my day job in Kansas. And the day that the Senate confirmation hearing began, a call came to our office from the White House. And this staffer said, “This governor? “Yes.” “President Obama has a plane in the air. It’s going to land at Forbes Air Force Base at noon. We want you on the plane.” And I said, you know, “That’s really interesting, but I don’t have a job yet. And I actually have a job here in Kansas. And here’s my plan. You know, my plan is I’m going to wait until I get confirmed and then I’ll resign and then I’ll get on the plane and then I’ll come to D.C.” And they said, “The president has a plane in the air, and it will land. He wants you on the plane.” First boss I’d had in 20 years. And I thought, “Oh, oh, OK. That’s a new thing.” So I literally left. Secretary Azar has heard this story earlier, but I left an index card on my desk in Kansas that said, “In the event I am confirmed, I hereby resign as governor.” And it was notarized and left there because I thought, I’m not giving up this job, not knowing if I will have another job. But halfway across the country I was confirmed and they came back and said — so I land and I said, “Where am I going?” I, literally, where — I mean, I’m all by myself, you know, it’s like, where am I going? “You’re going to the White House. The president’s going to swear you in.” “Great.” Except he couldn’t swear me in. He didn’t have the statutory authority, it turns out, so he could hold the Bible and the Cabinet secretary could swear me in. And then I was taken to the Situation Room, with somebody leading the way because I’d never been to the Situation Room. And the head of the World Health Organization was on the phone, the health minister from Canada, the health minister from Mexico, luckily my friend Janet Napolitano, who was Department of Homeland Security secretary — because we were in the middle of the H1N1 outbreak, swine flu, nobody knew what was going on. It was, you know, an initial pandemic. And everybody met and talked for a couple of hours. And then they all got up and left the room and I thought, woo-hoo, I’m the Cabinet secretary, you know, and they left? And somebody said to me later, well, “Does the White House find you a place to live?” I said, “Absolutely not. Nobody even asked if I had a place to stay.” I mean, it was 11 o’clock at night. They were all like, “Good night,” “goodbye,” “see ya.” So I luckily had friends in D.C. who I called and said, “Are you up? Can I come over? I’d like somebody to say, ‘Yay,’ you know, ‘we’re here.’” So that’s how I began.

Rovner: So you are kind of between these two. You have at least a little more idea of what it entailed. But what were you unprepared for in taking on this job?

Becerra: Probably the magnitude. Having served in Congress, I knew most of the agencies within HHS. I had worked very closely with most of the bigger agencies at HHS. As AG — Alex, I apologize — I sued HHS quite a —

Azar: He sued me a lot.

Becerra: Quite a few times.

Azar: Becerra v. Azar, all over the place.

Becerra: But the magnitude. I thought running the largest department of justice in the land other than the U.S. Department of Justice was a pretty big deal. But then you land and you have this agency that just stretches everywhere. And I agree with everything that Kathleen said earlier about the role that we play internationally. We are some of the best ambassadors for this country in the world because everyone wants you to help them save lives. And so it really helps. So the magnitude — it just struck me. When President Biden came in, we lost the equivalent of about — what, 13 9/11 twin tower deaths one day. Every day we were losing 11 twin tower deaths. And it hits you: You’ve got to come up with the answer yesterday. And so the White House is not a patient place, and they want answers quickly. And so you’re just, you’re on task. And it really is — it’s on you. You really — it smothers you, because you can’t let it go. And whether it was covid at the beginning or monkeypox last year, all of a sudden we see monkeypox, mpox, starting to pop up across the country. And it was, could this become the next covid? And so right away you’ve got to smother it. And the intensity is immediate. Probably the thing that I wasn’t prepared for as well, along with the magnitude, was, as I said, the breadth. Came in doing all these Zooms virtually to try to deal with the pandemic. But probably the thing that I had to really zero in on even more, that the president was expecting us to zero in on more, was migrant kids at the border and how you deal with not having a child sleep on a cement floor with an aluminum blanket and just trying to deal with that. It won’t overwhelm you necessarily, but — and again, thank God you’ve got just people who are so committed to this, because at any hour of the day and night, you’re working on these things — but the immensity of the task, because it’s real. And other departments also have very important responsibilities — clearly, Department of Defense, Department of State. But really it truly is life-and-death at HHS. So the gravity, it hits you, and it’s nonstop.

Rovner: All three of you were secretary at a time when health was actually at the top of the national agenda — which is not true. I’ve been covering HHS since 1986, and there have been plenty of secretaries who sort of were in the back of the administration, if you will, but you all really were front and center in all of these things. I want to go to sort of down the line. What was the hardest decision you had to make as secretary?

Becerra: Um …

Rovner: You’re not finished yet. I should say so far.

Becerra: I mean, there have been a lot of tough decisions, but, you know, when your team essentially prepares them up and you have all this discussion, but by the time it gets to me, it really has been baked really, really well. And now it’s sort of, White House is looking at this, we are seeing some of this, we’ve got to make a call. And again, Dr. Califf could speak to this as well. At the end of the day, the decisions aren’t so much difficult. It’s that they’re just very consequential. Do you prepare for a large surge in omicron and therefore spend a lot of money right now getting ready? Or do you sort of wait and see a little bit longer, preserve some of your money so you can use some of that money to do the longer-term work that needs to be done to prepare for the next generation of the viruses that are coming? Because once you spend the dollar, you don’t have it anymore. So you got to make that call. Those are the things that you’re constantly dealing with. But again, it just really helps to have a great team.

Sebelius: So I would say I was totally fortunate that the pandemic we dealt with was relatively short-lived and luckily far, far milder than what consumed both the secretaries to my left and right, and that was fortunate. A lot of our big decision areas were under the rubric of the Affordable Care Act and both trying to get it passed and threading that needle but then implementation. And I — you know, thinking about that question, Julie, I would say one of the toughest decisions — just because it provided a real clash between me and some of the people in the White House; luckily, at the end of the day, not the president, but — was really about the contraception coverage. Reproductive health had been something I’d worked on as a legislator, as governor. I felt very strongly about it. We’d fought a lot of battles in Kansas around it, and part of the Affordable Care Act was a preventive services benefit around contraceptive care. And that was going to be life-changing for a lot of women. And how broad it should be, how many battles we were willing to take on, how that could be implemented became a clash. And I think there were people in the administration who were hopeful that you could avoid clashes. So just make a compromise, you know, eliminate this group or that group, who may get unhappy about it. And at the end of the day, I was helped not just by people in the department, but mobilized some of my women Cabinet friends and senior White House women friends. And we sort of had a little bit of a facedown. And as I say, the president ended up saying, “OK, we’ll go big. We’ll go as big as we possibly can.” But I look back on that as a — I mean, it was a consequential decision, and it was implementation — not passing the rag in the first place, but implementing it. And it had a big impact. A big impact. It’s not one I regret, but it got a little a little tense inside, but what would be friendly meetings.

Azar: I’d use the divide Secretary Becerra talked about, which is that consequential versus hard decisions, that a lot — I think one could have a Hamlet-like character. I don’t. And so making the call when it comes to you wasn’t a terribly difficult thing, even. These are life-and-death decisions, but still yourself, you know your thought processes, you think it through, it’s been baked very well, you’ve heard all sides. You just have to make that call. So I’d maybe pivot to probably it’s more of a process thing. The hardest aspect for me was just deciding when do you fight and when do you not fight with, say, the White House? What hills do you die on? And where do you say, “Yeah, not what I would do, but I just have to live to fight another day.” Those were probably the toughest ones to really wrestle with.

Rovner: Was there one where you really were ready to die on the hill?

Azar: There were a lot. There were a lot. I mean, I’ll give you one example. I mean, I left a lot of blood on the field of battle just to try to outlaw pharmaceutical rebates, to try to push those through to the point of sale. I probably stayed to the end just to get that dag — because I, the opponents had left the administration and I finally got that daggone rule across the finish line right at the end. And that was something that I felt incredibly strongly that you could never actually change. I’ve lived inside that world. You could never change the dynamic of pharmaceutical drug pricing without passing through rebates to the point of sale. And I had so many opponents to get that done. It was a three-year constant daily battle that felt vindicated then to get it done. But that was a fight.

Rovner: And of course, I can’t help but notice that all of the things that you all are talking about are things that are still being debated today. None of them are completely resolved. Let’s turn this around a little bit. I wanted to ask you what you’re most proud of actually getting accomplished. Was it the rebate rule? That was a big deal.

Azar: For me, it has to be Operation Warp Speed. …[applause] … Yeah. Thank you. That was just — I mean, and I don’t want to take the credit. I mean, it was public-private. Mark Esper, this could not have happened without the partnership of the Defense Department, and it could not have happened without Mark Esper as secretary, because — I guarantee you, I’ve dealt with a lot of SecDefs in my career — and when the secretary of defense says to you, “Alex, you have the complete power and support of the Department of Defense. You just tell me what you need.” I haven’t heard those words before. And he was a partner and his whole team a partner throughout. And when you have the muscle of the U.S. military behind you to get something done, it is miraculous what happens. I mean, we were making hundreds of millions of doses of commercial-scale vaccine in June of 2020, when we were still in phase 2 clinical trials. We were just making it at risk. So we’re pumping this stuff out. And in one of the factories, a pump goes down. The pump is on the other side of the country on a train. The U.S. military shoots out a fighter jet, it gets out there, stops the train, pulls the train over, puts it on a helicopter, gets it on the jet, zips it off to the factory. We have colonels at every single manufacturing facility, and they get this installed. We’re up and running within 24 hours. It would have taken six to nine months under normal process. But the U.S. military got that done. So that for me was like just — the other two quick, one was banning flavored e-cigarettes. We got 25% reduction in youth use of tobacco in 12 months as a result of that. And then one of the great public health victories that this country had and the world had got ignored because it got concluded in June of 2020: We had the 11th Ebola outbreak. It was in the war zone in the eastern Democratic Republic of the Congo. This was the pandemic I was really, really worried about. One-hundred seventy-four warring groups in the war zone in the eastern Congo. Got [WHO Director-General] Tedros [Adhanom Ghebreyesus] and [then-Director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases Anthony] Fauci and [then-CDC Director Robert] Redfield, and we went over and we went on the ground and we got that. And by June of 2020, that one got out, which was a miracle of global public health. I’m with Kathleen on that one; I think global public health is a key instrument of American power projection humanity around the world. Sorry to go so long.

Rovner: It’s OK. Your turn.

Sebelius: I think proudest is the ability to participate in the Affordable Care Act and push that over the finish line. And for me, it was a really personal journey. My father was in Congress and was one of the votes for Medicare and Medicaid to be passed, so that chunk of the puzzle. I was the insurance commissioner in Kansas when the Republican governor asked me to do the implementation of the Children’s Health Insurance Program. So I helped with that piece. I was on President [Bill] Clinton’s patient protection commission and ended up with a lot of that package in the Affordable Care Act. And then finally to work for and support and watch a president who basically said when he announced for president, “This is my priority in my first term: I want to pass a major health care bill.” And a lot of people had made that pledge. But 15 months later, there was a bill on his desk and he signed it, and we got to implement it. So that was thrilling. Yeah. And, I should tell you, then-Congressman Becerra was one of the wingmen in the House who I worked with carefully, who — there was no better vote counter than Nancy Pelosi, but by her side was this guy, part of her delegation, named Xavier Becerra, who was whipping the votes into place. So he played a key role in making sure that crossed the finish line.

Becerra: So I’m still here, so you’re going to have to —

Rovner: You can change your answer later.

Becerra: I need a bit of grace here, because I’m going to start with Warp Speed, because I bet no one here knows there’s no longer a Operation Warp Speed. It’s now called H-CORE. And the reason I’m very proud of that is because you don’t know that it’s now H-CORE. And what makes it such a good thing is that the Department of Defense no longer has any role in the protection of the American people from covid. It’s all done in-house at HHS. Everything used to be done essentially under the auspices of the Department of Defense, because they are just the folks that can get things done in 24 hours. We do that now, and it’s the operations that were begun a while back. Kathleen had them, Alex had them. Our ASPR, that’s our Preparedness and Response team, they’re doing phenomenal work, but you don’t know it, and you don’t know that H-CORE took to flight in the first year of the Biden administration. By December of 2021, Department of Defense had transferred over all those responsibilities to us, and we’ve been doing it since. But if you ask me what am I most proud of, it’s, I mean, there are more Americans today than ever in the history of this country who have the ability to pay for their own health care because they have health insurance, more than 300 million. Part of that is Obamacare; a record number, 16 and a half million Americans, get their insurance through the marketplaces, and we haven’t stopped yet. There are close to 700 million shots of covid vaccine that have gone into the arms of Americans. That’s never been done in the history of this country. Some of you are probably familiar with three digits, 988, at a time when Americans are … [applause] … 9 in 10 Americans would tell you that America is experiencing a mental health crisis, especially with our youth. And Congress got wise and said, instead of having in different parts of the country, based on region, you could call a phone number for a suicide lifeline, if you didn’t know the 10-digit number or what part of the country you were in, you were out of luck — today, all you have to do is dial 988. But as I said before, federal government doesn’t run mental health. It’s all done by the states. But President Biden is very committed to mental health. His budgets have surpassed any type of investments that have been called for by any president in history for mental health. And he was very committed to 988 to make sure it launched right. And so we have, by exponential numbers, put money into 988 to make sure every state was ready to have it launch. And so by July of 2022, we launched 988, and it is working so well that people are actually calling — actually, not just calling. We now have a text feature and a chat feature because surprise, surprise, young people prefer not to call; they actually prefer to text. And we have increased the number of Americans who are reaching out by over 2 million, which is great, but it’s also not great because it shows you how much Americans are hurting. So there’s so many things I can tell you that I feel very good about that we’re doing. We’re not done. We’re moving beyond on tobacco where Alex left. We’re now moving to ban menthol in cigarettes. Menthol cigarettes are the most popular brand of cigarettes in America. They hook you because of the menthol, and we’re moving to extract menthol. We’re moving to ban flavored cigars and cigarillos. And we may be on course to try to see if we can move to extract as much nicotine out of tobacco as possible before it becomes a product on the market for folks to smoke. So we’re doing a whole lot of things there. And obviously on vaping, e-cigarettes as well — and Dr. Califf could mention that. But I’ll say the thing I’m probably most proud of is that, out of all the government agencies in America, federal government agencies, HHS ranks No. 2 as the best place to work. And I will tell you we’re No. 2, because if we had the capacity to tell our workforce, we will fly you to the moon and back the way NASA does, we’d be No. 1. So that’s what I think I’m most proud of, is that people, as hard as we work them, still say, “Come work at HHS.”

Rovner: So all of you have mentioned these things that were really hard to do because of politics. And you’ve all talked about how some of these decisions, when they get to you, have been baked by your staff and, you know, they vetted it with every side. But I think the public feels like politics determine everything. And I think you all would like to think that policy is what helps determine most things. So, what’s the balance? How much does politics determine what gets done, and how much is it just the idea that this would be the right policy for the American public?

Azar: Mike Leavitt, who was the secretary when I was deputy secretary, he had a phrase, and I’ll probably mangle it, but it was essentially, “Facts for science, and politics for policy.” And it’s important to remember this distinction. So, facts are facts. You gather data. We are especially a data-generating agency. But on top of that are policy overlays. And there are choices that are made about how do you use those facts? What do those facts mean? What are the implications? The United States Constitution vests under Article 2 in the president of the United States to make those choices and, as his delegee, the secretary and the other appointed leaders of the department. So there’s often this notion of politicizing science, but it’s, are there facts? Facts are facts. You generate facts. But what are the implications for policymaking? And I don’t think there’s anything illegitimate — I think is completely appropriate, whether a Democratic or Republican president — that you look and you consider all kinds of factors. Because for instance, for me, I’m going to look at things very much from a public health lens as I assess things. The secretary of the treasury, the secretary of commerce, may bring a completely and important different perspective to the table that I don’t bring. And it’s completely legitimate that that gets factored on top of whatever I or other agencies bring in as fact. So I think it takes some nuance and that we often, frankly, in public discourse don’t catch nuance. Interesting. We don’t do nuance well.

Rovner: We don’t do nuance.

Sebelius: Well, I would agree with the description of the facts versus the policy. And policy does often have political flavors. I was fortunate to work for a president who said, meant, and said it over and over and over again that he would follow the science. And he did. And I had interesting political debates with people around him, on his team, about what should be done, “rewrite the guidance on this,” “do that,” “this is going to upset this group of people.” And he was very resilient and very consistent, saying, “What does the science say? What do the scientists say? That’s where we’re going,” on those areas which were really defined as giving advice to the American public on health issues, doing a variety of things. I mean, he was totally focused on listening to the science. The politics came in, as I think Secretary Azar said well, in some decisions that were brought to him, which really involved often battles between Cabinet agencies, and both were very legitimate. Again, we had pretty ferocious battles on food labeling and calorie counts and how much sodium would, should manufacturers be allowed to put in all of our manufactured goods. I’m sure many of you are aware, but, you know, American sodium levels are just skyrocketing. And it doesn’t matter what kind of salt you use at your table; it’s already baked into every loaf of bread, every pat of butter, every can of soup. And a lot of European countries have done a great job just lowering that. So the goods that are manufactured that you pick up in an EU country — Kellogg’s Corn Flakes has a third of the sodium that the Kellogg’s Corn Flakes that you get in Aspen does, just because that was a choice that those governments made. That’s a way to keep people healthy. But we would come at that through a public health perspective and argue strenuously for various kinds of limits. The Department of Agriculture, promoting farm products, supporting goods it exports, you know, not wanting to rile people up, would come in very strongly opposing a lot of those public health measures. And the president would make that call. Now, is that politics? Is it policy? Is it, you know, listening to a different lens? But he made the call and some of those battles we would win and some we would lose. But again, it’s a very legitimate role for the president to make. He’s getting input from leaders who see things through a different lens, and then he’s the ultimate decider and he would make the decision.

Becerra: So um, I’ve done politics and policy much longer than I’ve done the secretary role. And I will tell you that there is a big difference. We do do some policy, but for the most part we execute. The policy has been given to us by Congress, and to some degree the White House will help shape that policy. We have some role in policymaking because we put out guidances, and the guidance may look like it’s political or policy-driven, or we decide how much sodium might be allowed in a particular product and so forth. But for the most part, we’re executing on a policy that’s been dictated to the agencies by Congress. And I love that, because when I became AG in California, it really hit you how important it is to be able to marshal facts. And in HHS, it’s not just facts; it’s scientific facts. It is such a treat, as an attorney, to get to rely on scientific facts to push things like masking policy in the face of some hostility that went throughout the country to the point that our CDC director had to have security detail because she was getting death threats for having policies that would urge society to have masking policies for adults, for children. We do rely principally on science and the facts at HHS. Maybe folks don’t believe it, but I can put those on the table for you to take a look at. And perhaps the best example I can give you, and I don’t know if I’ll have time to connect the dots for you, because it’s a little esoteric: Title 42, which many of you got to hear about all the time in the news. Title 42 was a policy that was put in place under the Trump administration when we were in the height of the covid pandemic. We didn’t know what was causing covid, so we were trying to make sure that we protected ourselves and our borders. And so therefore, for public health reasons, we sort of closed our borders to the degree that we could, except for those who proved that they had gone through steps and so forth to be able to come in. Title 42 was used under the Trump administration, under the Biden administration to stop people from coming through our southern border. And there reached a point where, as things got better, our team said Title 42, which is health-based — it’s to stop the spread of contagion — was no longer the appropriate tool to use at the border, because we were letting people in the northern border, by plane, and all the rest. You just had to go through protocols. And so they were saying for health care reasons you go through protocols. But Title 42 is probably not the blanket way to deal with this issue, because it’s no longer simply a health care issue. We pushed really hard on that within the administration to the point where, finally, the administration said, “We’re pulling down Title 42.” Then the politics and the policy came in, from Congress saying, “Oh, how dare you take down Title 42? How dare you do that and let the flood of people come into this country?” Well, look, if you want to deal with people coming into the country, whatever way, then deal with our country’s borders through our immigration laws, not through our health care laws. Don’t try to make health care experts be the reason why you’re stopping someone from coming into this country. Stop hiding behind their skirt. And that’s where we went. And the administration took that policy as well. They took the policy. We then got sued and a court said, “No, you will not take down Title 42.” Ultimately, we think we were going to prevail in court, but ultimately, because we pulled down the public health emergency, things got better under covid, we no longer needed Title 42. But just again, to be clear, the women and men at HHS, we execute; we use the facts and the science. We don’t do politics.

Rovner: So we’ve been very serious.

Becerra: Not everybody believed me on that one.

Rovner: I know, I know. We’ve been very serious here for 50-some minutes. I want to go down the line. What’s the most fun thing you got to do as secretary or the coolest thing that you got to do as secretary?

Azar: Probably for me, it was the trip to the Congo, you know, being in the DRC, going to Uganda, going to Rwanda, flying on MONUSCO [United Nations Organization Stabilization Mission in the Democratic Republic of the Congo] U.N. peacekeeping forces; there was a Russian gunboat taking Tedros and Fauci and Redfield and me there into this war zone. I mean, it’s a once-in-a-lifetime — it’s sort of crazy — but once-in-a-lifetime thing that had impact.

Rovner: I don’t know that most people would call that fun.

Azar: I mean, it’ll be one of those great memories for life. Yeah. Yeah.

Sebelius: There were certainly some great trips and memorable experiences around health results in various parts of the world. Some martinis on the presidential balcony and looking at the Washington Monument — that’s pretty cool at night. But my, I think, personally kind of fun thing. I raised my children on “Sesame Street,” and they loved “Sesame Street” and the characters, and that was sort of part of the family routine. And so I got to go to “Sesame Street” and make a public service commercial with Elmo. I got to see Oscar’s garbage can. I met Snuffleupagus. But the Elmo commercial was to teach kids how to sneeze because, again, we were trying to spread good health habits. And so the script said — I mean, Elmo is right here and I’m here — and the script said, “OK, Elmo, we need to practice how to sneeze. So put your arm up and bend your elbow and sneeze into your arm.” And the puppet answered, “Elmo has no elbow.” That wasn’t part of the script. It was like, really? “And if Elmo does that, it will go like this: Achoo!” OK, so we flipped the script and Elmo taught me to sneeze. But that was a very memorable day to finally be on “Sesame Street.” It was very cool.

Rovner: OK, beat that.

Becerra: My team has not yet scheduled me to go on “Sesame Street,” so it’s going to be tough.

Sebelius: But just remember, Elmo has no elbows, if you get to go.

Becerra: I think probably what I will think of most is that I had had a chance to be in the White House and meet with the president in the Oval Office and the rest as a of member of Congress and so forth. When I went in, and it was because things were kind of dire with the kids at the border, and I knew I was going to get a whiplash after the meeting — it wasn’t fun at the time, but walking out, you know, it’s the kind of thing you think of, you know, “West Wing” kind of thing. You actually got the — president sat at the table, I was the guy that sat across from him. Everybody else was to the sides. You know, for a kid who was the first in his family to go to college, Dad didn’t get past the sixth grade, Mom didn’t come here till she was 18, when she came from Guadalajara, Jalisco, Mexico. It was pretty cool.

Rovner: So I could go on all night, but I think we’re not supposed to. So I want to ask you all one last question, which is, regardless of party affiliation, what is one piece of advice you would give to a successor as HHS secretary? Why don’t you start?

Becerra: Gosh, don’t start with me because I’m still there, so —

Rovner: All right.

Azar: I’m going to plagiarize and I’m going to give you the advice I wish Donna Shalala had given me before I took the job. But I would give it to any successor, which: She told me, “Do not take the job unless you have authority over personnel. Refuse to take the job unless you have control over who’s working, because people is policy and you have to be able to control the ethics, the tone, the culture of the organization. And people are that, and you need to have that authority.” And ever really since the Reagan administration, the Office of Presidential Personnel has just been this vortex of power that controls all political appointees at Cabinet departments. And I think if the president really wants you, you need to strike a deal that says, at a minimum, I’ve got veto or firing rights.

Sebelius: I think my advice would be the advice you give to a lot of employees who work in the private sector or public sector is, Make sure you’re aligned with the mission of the CEO, so in this case the president. I mean, don’t take the job because it’s cool and you’ll be a Cabinet member, because then it will be miserable. And with HHS, recognize the incredible assets across this agency. It is the most dazzling workforce I’ve ever had an opportunity to be with — the brightest people of all shapes, sizes, backgrounds, who taught me so much every day — and just cherish and relish your opportunity to be there, even for a short period of time. It’s miraculous.

Becerra: So I’d agree with Alex: Assemble your team. And it really is, because Kathleen mentioned it, it’s a very small group that actually you get to bring in, or even the administration gets to bring in, because most of the folks are civil service, so it’s only a fraction of the people that are going to be new. But your inner circle, the team that’s going to sort of be there and guide you and tell you what’s truth, they’ve got to be your team, because someone’s got to have your back. But I’d also say, know your reach, because as Kathleen said, this is not the Azar administration or the Sebelius administration, the Becerra administration. It’s the administration of the guy who got elected. And at the end of the day, the president gets to make the call. So as much as you may want to do something, you’ve got to know your reach.

Rovner: Well, I want to thank you all. I hope the audience had half as much fun as I did doing this. Let’s do it again next year. Thank you, all. OK, that’s our show for this week. As always, if you enjoy the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left a review; that helps other people find us, too. Special thanks, as always, and particularly this week, to our producer, Francis Ying. Also as always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org. Or you can tweet me. I’m @jrovner. We’ll be back in your feed from Washington next week. Until then, be healthy.

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Julie Rovner is chief Washington correspondent and host of KFF Health News’ weekly health policy news podcast, “What the Health?” A noted expert on health policy issues, Julie is the author of the critically praised reference book “Health Care Politics and Policy A to Z,” now in its third edition.

Health and other federal programs are at risk of shutting down, at least temporarily, as Congress races toward the Oct. 1 start of the fiscal year without having passed any of its 12 annual appropriations bills. A small band of conservative House Republicans are refusing to approve spending bills unless domestic spending is cut beyond levels agreed to in May.

Meanwhile, former President Donald Trump roils the GOP presidential primary field by vowing to please both sides in the divisive abortion debate.

This week’s panelists are Julie Rovner of KFF Health News, Alice Miranda Ollstein of Politico, Rachel Cohrs of Stat News, and Tami Luhby of CNN.

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Rachel Cohrs
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Tami Luhby
CNN

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Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:

• The odds of a government shutdown over spending levels are rising. While entitlement programs like Medicare would be largely spared, past shutdowns have shown that closing the federal government hobbles things Americans rely on, like food safety inspections and air travel.
• In Congress, the discord isn’t limited to spending bills. A House bill to increase price transparency in health care melted down before a vote this week, demonstrating again how hard it is to take on the hospital industry. Legislation on how pharmacy benefit managers operate is also in disarray, though its projected government savings means it could resurface as part of a spending deal before the end of the year.
• On the Senate side, legislation intended to strengthen primary care is teetering under Bernie Sanders’ stewardship — in large part over questions about how to pay for it. Also, this week Democrats broke Alabama Republican Sen. Tommy Tuberville’s abortion-related blockade of military promotions (kind of), going around him procedurally to confirm the new chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
• And some Republicans are breaking with abortion opponents and mobilizing in support of legislation to renew the United States President’s Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief — including the former president who spearheaded the program, George W. Bush. Meanwhile, polling shows President Joe Biden is struggling to claim credit for the new Medicare drug negotiation program.
• And speaking of past presidents, former President Donald Trump gave NBC an interview over the weekend in which he offered a muddled stance on abortion. Vowing to settle the long, inflamed debate over the procedure — among other things — Trump’s comments were strikingly general election-focused for someone who has yet to win his party’s nomination.

Plus, for “extra credit,” the panelists suggest health policy stories they read this week that they think you should read, too:

Julie Rovner: The Washington Post’s “Inside the Gold Rush to Sell Cheaper Imitations of Ozempic,” by Daniel Gilbert.

Alice Miranda Ollstein: Politico’s “The Anti-Vaccine Movement Is on the Rise. The White House Is at a Loss Over What to Do About It,” by Adam Cancryn.

Rachel Cohrs: KFF Health News’ “Save Billions or Stick With Humira? Drug Brokers Steer Americans to the Costly Choice,” by Arthur Allen.

Tami Luhby: CNN’s “Supply and Insurance Issues Snarl Fall Covid-19 Vaccine Campaign for Some,” by Brenda Goodman.

Also mentioned in this week’s episode:

• The AP’s “Biden’s Medicare Price Negotiation Is Broadly Popular. But He’s Not Getting Much Credit,” by Seung Min Kim and Linley Sanders.
• Roll Call’s “Sanders, Marshall Reach Deal on Health Programs, but Challenges Remain,” by Jessie Hellmann and Lauren Clason.

CLICK TO EXPAND THE TRANSCRIPT

Transcript: Countdown to Shutdown

[Editor’s note: This transcript was generated using both transcription software and a human’s light touch. It has been edited for style and clarity.]

Julie Rovner: Hello and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Julie Rovner, chief Washington correspondent for KFF Health News. And I’m joined by some of the best and smartest health reporters in Washington. We’re taping this week on Thursday, Sept. 21, at 9 a.m. because, well, lots of news this week. And as always, news happens fast, and things might well have changed by the time you hear this. So here we go. We are joined today via video conference by Tami Luhby of CNN.

Tami Luhby: Good morning.

Rovner: Rachel Cohrs of Stat News.

Rachel Cohrs: Hi, everybody.

Rovner: And Alice Miranda Ollstein of Politico.

Alice Miranda Ollstein: Hello.

Rovner: Let’s get to some of that news. We will begin on Capitol Hill, where I might make a T-shirt from this tweet from Wednesday from longtime congressional reporter Jake Sherman: “I feel like this is not the orderly appropriations process that was promised after the debt ceiling deal passed.” For those of you who might’ve forgotten, many moons ago, actually it was May, Congress managed to avoid defaulting on the national debt, and as part of that debt ceiling deal agreed to a small reduction in annual domestic spending for the fiscal year that starts Oct. 1 (as in nine days from now). But some of the more conservative Republicans in the House want those cuts to go deeper, much deeper, in fact. And now they’re refusing to either vote for spending bills approved by the Republican-led appropriations committee or even for a short-term spending bill that would keep the government open after this year’s funding runs out. So how likely is a shutdown at this point? I would hazard a guess to say pretty likely. And anybody disagree with that?

Ollstein: It’s more likely than it was a week or two ago, for sure. The fact that we’re at the point where the House passing something that they know is dead on arrival in the Senate would be considered a victory for them. And so, if that’s the case, you really have to wonder what the end game is.

Rovner: Yeah, I mean it was notable, I think, that the House couldn’t even pass the rule for the Defense Appropriations Bill, which is the most Republican-backed spending bill, and the House couldn’t get that done. So I mean it does not bode well for the fate of some of these domestic programs that Republicans would, as I say, like to cut a lot deeper. Right?

Cohrs: Democrats are happy, I think, to watch Republicans flail for a while. I think we saw this during the speaker votes. Obviously, a CR [continuing resolution] could pass with wide bipartisan support, but I think there’s a political interest for Democrats going into an election year next year to lean into the idea of the House Republican chaos and blaming them for a shutdown. So I wouldn’t be too optimistic about Democrats billing them out anytime soon.

Rovner: But, bottom line, of course, is that a shutdown is not great for Democrats who support things that the government does. I mean, Tami, you’re watching, what does happen if there’s a shutdown? Not everything shuts down and not all the money stops flowing.

Luhby: No, and the important thing, unlike in the debt ceiling, potentially, was that Social Security will continue, Medicare will continue, but it’ll be very bothersome to a lot of people. There’ll be important things that … potentially chaos at airlines and food safety inspectors. I mean some of them are sometimes considered essential workers, but there’s still issues there. So people will be mad because they can’t go to their national parks potentially. I mean it’s different every time, so it’s a little hard to say exactly what the effects will be and we’ll see also whether this will be a full government shutdown, which will be much more serious than a partial government shutdown, although at this point it doesn’t look like they’re going to get any of the appropriation bills through.

Rovner: I was going to say, yeah, sometimes when they get some of the spending bills done, there’s a partial shutdown because they’ve gotten some of the spending bills done, but I’m pretty sure they’ve gotten zero done now. I think there’s one that managed to pass both the House and the Senate, but basically this would be a full shutdown of everything that’s funded through the appropriations process. Which as Tami points out, the big things are the Smithsonian and the National Zoo close, and national parks close, but also you can’t get an awful lot of government services. Meanwhile, the ill will among House Republicans is apparently rubbing off on other legislation. The House earlier this week was supposed to vote on a relatively noncontroversial package of bills aimed at making hospital insurance and drug prices more transparent, among other things. But even that couldn’t get through. Rachel, what happened to the transparency bill that everybody thought was going to be a slam-dunk?

Cohrs: Well, I don’t think everybody thought it was going to be a slam-dunk given the chaos that we saw, especially in the Democratic Caucus last week, where one out of three chairmen who work on health care in the House endorsed the package, but the other two would not. And they ran into a situation where, with the special rule that they were using to consider the House transparency package, they needed two-thirds vote to pass and they couldn’t get enough Democrats on board to pass it. And I think there were some process concerns from both sides that there was a compromise that came out right after August recess and it hadn’t been socialized properly and they didn’t have their ducks in a row in the Democratic side. But ultimately, I mean, the big picture for me I think was how hard it really is to take on the hospital industry. Because this was the first real effort I think from the House and it melted down before its first vote. That doesn’t mean it’s dead yet, but it was an embarrassment, I think, to everyone who worked on this that they couldn’t get this pretty noncontroversial package through. And when I tried to talk to people about what they actually oppose, it was these tiny little details about a privacy provision or one transparency provision and not with the big idea. It wasn’t ideological necessarily. So I think it was just a reflection on Congress has taken on pharma, they’re working on PBMs this year, but if they really do want to tackle hospital costs, which are a very big part of Medicare spending, it’s going to be a tough road ahead for them.

Rovner: As we like to point out, every single member of Congress has a hospital in their district, and they are quick to let their members of Congress know what they want and how they want them to vote on things. Before we move on, where are we on the PBM legislation? I know there was a whole raft of hearings this week on doing something about PBMs. And my inbox is full of people from both sides. “The PBMs are making drug prices higher.” “No, the PBMs are helping keep drug prices in check.” Where are we with the congressional effort to try and at least figure out what the PBMs do?

Cohrs: Yeah, I think there is still some disarray at this point. I would watch for action in December or whenever we actually have a conversation about government funding because some of these PBM bills do save money, which is the golden ticket in health care because there are a lot of programs that need to be paid for this year. So Congress will continue to debate those over the next couple of weeks, but I think everyone that I talk to is expecting potential passage in a larger package at the end of the year.

Rovner: So speaking of things that need to be paid for, the saga of Sen. Bernie Sanders and the reauthorization of some key primary care programs, including the popular community health center program, continues. When we left off last July, Sen. Sanders, who chairs the Senate Health, Education, Labor & Pensions Committee [HELP], tried to advance a bill to extend and greatly expand primary care programs without negotiating with his ranking Republican on the committee, Louisiana Sen. Bill Cassidy, who had his own bill to renew the programs. Cassidy protested and blocked the bill’s movement and the whole enterprise came to a screeching halt. Last week, Sanders announced he’d negotiated a bipartisan bill, but not with Cassidy, rather with Kansas Republican Roger Marshall, who chairs the relevant subcommittee. Cassidy, however, is still not pleased. Rachel, you’re following this. Sanders has scheduled a markup of the bill for later today. Is it really going to happen?

Cohrs: Well, I think things are on track and the thing to remember about a markup is it passes on a majority. So as long as Sen. Sanders can keep his Democratic members in line and gets Sen. Marshall, then it can pass committee. But I think there are some concerns that other Republicans will share with Sen. Cassidy about how the bill is paid for. There are a lot of ambitious programs to expand workforce training, have debt forgiveness, and address the primary care workforce crisis in a more meaningful way. But the list of pay-fors is a little undisciplined from what I’ve seen, I would say.

Rovner: That’s a good word.

Cohrs: Sen. Sanders is pulling some pay-fors from other committees, which he can’t necessarily do by himself, and they don’t actually have estimates from the Congressional Budget Office for some of the pay-fors that they’re planning to use. They’re just using internal committee math, which I don’t think is going to pass muster with Republicans in the full Senate, even if it gets through committee today. So I think we’ll see some of those concerns flare up. It could get ugly today compared with HELP markups of the past of community health center bills. And there are certainly some concerns about the application of the Hyde Amendment too, and how it would apply to some of this funding as it moves through the appropriations process.

Rovner: That’s the amendment that bans direct government funding of abortion, and there’s always a fight about the Hyde Amendment, which are reauthorizing these health programs. But I mean, we should point out, I mean this is one of the most bipartisanly popular programs, both the community health center program and these programs that basically give federal money to train more primary care doctors, which the country desperately needs. I mean, it’s something that pretty much everybody, or most of Congress, supports, but Cassidy has what, 60 amendments to this bill. I guess he’s really not happy. Cassidy who supports this in general just is unhappy with this process, right?

Cohrs: I think his concern is more that the legislation is half-baked, not that he’s against the idea of it. And Sen. Cassidy did sign on to a more limited House proposal as well, just saying, we need to fund the community health centers, we need to do something. This isn’t ready for prime time. We could see further negotiations, but the time is ticking for this funding to expire.

Rovner: Well, another program whose authorization expires at the end of the month is PEPFAR, the international AIDS/HIV program. It’s being blocked by anti-abortion activists among others, even though it doesn’t have anything to do with the abortion. And this is not just a bipartisan program, it’s a Republican-led program. Former President George W. Bush who signed it into law in 2003, had an op-ed this week pushing for the program in The Washington Post. Alice, you’ve been following this one. Is there any progress on PEPFAR?

Ollstein: Yes and no. There’s not a vote scheduled, there’s not a “Kumbaya” moment, but we are seeing some movement. I call it “Establishment Republican Strike Back.” You have some both on- and off-the-Hill Republicans really mobilizing to say, “Look, we need to reauthorize this program. This is ridiculous.” And they’re going against the anti-abortion groups and their allies on Capitol Hill who say, “No, let’s just extend this program just year by year through appropriations, not a reauthorization.” Which they say would rubber-stamp the Biden administration redirecting money towards abortion, which the Biden administration and everybody else denies is happening. And so we confirmed that Chairman Mike McCaul in the House and Lindsey Graham in the Senate are working with Democrats on some sort of reauthorization bill. It might not be the full five years, it might be three years, we don’t really know yet. But they think that at least a multiyear reauthorization will give the program some stability rather than the one-year funding patch that other House Republicans are mulling. So we’re going to see where this goes; obviously, it’s an interesting test for the influence of these anti-abortion groups on Capitol Hill. And my colleague and I also scooped that former President Bush, who oversaw the creation of this program, is quietly lobbying certain members, having meetings, and so we will see what kind of pull he still has in the party.

Rovner: Well, this was one of his signature achievements, literally. So it’s something that I know that … and we should point out, unlike the spending bills, the appropriation bills, if this doesn’t happen by Oct. 1, nothing stops, it’s just it becomes theoretically unauthorized, like many programs are, and it’s considered not a good sign for the program.

Luhby: One thing I also wanted to just bring up quickly, tangentially related to health care, but also showing how bipartisan programs are not getting the support that they did, is the WIC program, which is food assistance for women, infants and children, needs more money. Actually participation is up, but even before that, the House Republicans wanted to cut the funding for it, and that was going to be a big divide between them and the Senate. And now because participation is up, the Biden administration is actually asking for another $1.4 billion for the program. This is a program that, again, has always had support and has been fully funded, not had to turn people away. And now it’s looking that many women and small children may not be able to get the assistance if Congress isn’t able to actually fund the program fully.

Rovner: Yes, they’re definitely tied in knots. Well, Oct. 1 turns out to be a key date for a lot of health care issues. It’s also the day drugmakers are supposed to notify Medicare whether they will participate in negotiations for the 10 high-cost drugs Medicare has chosen for the first phase of the program that Congress approved last year. But that might all get blocked if a federal judge rules in favor of a suit brought by the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, among others. Rachel, there was a hearing on this last week, where does this lawsuit stand and when do we expect to hear something from the judge?

Cohrs: So the judge didn’t ask any questions of the attorneys, so they were essentially presenting arguments that we’ve already seen previewed in some of the briefing materials. We are expecting some action by Oct. 1, which is when the Chamber had requested a ruling on whether there’s going to be a preliminary injunction, just because drugmakers are supposed to sign paperwork and submit data to CMS by that Oct. 1 date. So I think we are just waiting to see what the ruling might be. Some of the key issues or whether the Chamber actually has standing to file this lawsuit, given it’s not an actual drug manufacturer. And there was some quibbling about what members they listed in the lawsuit. And then I think they only addressed the argument that the negotiation program violated drugmakers’ due process rights, which isn’t the full scope of the lawsuit. It’s not an indicator of success really anywhere else, but it is important because it is the very first test. And if a preliminary injunction is issued, then it brings everything to a halt. So I think it would be very impactful for other drugmakers as well.

Rovner: Nobody told me when I became a health reporter that I was going to have to learn every step of the civil judicial process, and yet here we are. Well, while we are still on the subject of drug prices, a new poll from the AP and the NORC finds that while the public, Republicans and Democrats, still strongly support Medicare being able to negotiate the price of prescription drugs, President [Joe] Biden is getting barely any credit for having accomplished something that Democrats have been pushing for for more than 20 years. Most respondents in the survey either don’t think the plan goes far enough, because, as we point out, it’s only the first 10 drugs, or they don’t realize that he’s the one that helped push it over the finish line. This should have been a huge win and it’s turning out to be a nothing. Is that going to change?

Ollstein: It’s kind of a “Groundhog Day” of the Obamacare experience in which they pass this big, huge reform that people had been fighting for so long, but they’re trying to campaign on it when people aren’t really feeling the effects of it yet. And so when people aren’t really feeling the benefit and they’re hearing, “Oh, we’re lowering your drug prices.” But they’re going to the pharmacy and they’re paying the same very high amount, it’s hard to get a political win from that. The long implementation timeline is against them there. So there are some provisions that kick in more quickly, so we’ll have to see if that makes any kind of difference. I think that’s why you hear them talk a lot about the insulin price cap because that is already in effect, but that hits fewer people than the bigger negotiation will theoretically hit eventually. So it’s tough, and I think it leaves a vacuum where the drug industry and conservatives can fearmonger or raise concerns and say, “This will make drugs inaccessible and they won’t submit new cures for approval.” And all this stuff. And because people aren’t feeling the benefits, but they’re hearing those downsides, yeah, that makes the landscape even tougher for Democrats.

Luhby: This is very much the pattern that the Biden administration has had with a lot of its achievements or successes because it’s also not getting any credit for anything in the economy. The job market is relatively strong still, the economy is relatively strong. Yes, we have high inflation and high prices, even though that’s moderated, prices are still high, and that’s what people are seeing. Gas prices are now up again, which is not good for the administration. But they’re touting their Bidenomics, which also includes lowering drug prices. But generally polling shows, including our CNN polling shows, that people do not think the economy is doing well and they’re not giving Biden any credit for anything.

Cohrs: I think part of the problem is that … it’s different from the Affordable Care Act where it was health care, health care, health care for a very long time. This is lumped into a bill called the Inflation Reduction Act. I think it got lumped in with climate, got looped in with tax. And the media, we did our best, but it was hard to explain everything that was in the bill. And Medicare negotiation is complicated, it’s wonky, and I don’t know that people fully understood everything that was in the Inflation Reduction Act when it passed and they capitulated to Sen. [Joe] Manchin for what he wanted to name it. And so I think some of that got muddled when it first passed and they’re kind of trying to do catch-up work to explain, again, like Alice said, something that hasn’t gone into effect, which is a really tough uphill climb.

Rovner: This has been a continuing frustration for Democrats, which is that actually getting legislation done in Washington always involves some kind of compromise, and it’s always going to be incremental. And the public doesn’t really respond to things that are incremental. It’s like, “Why isn’t it bigger? Why didn’t they do what they promised?” And so the Republicans get more credit for stopping things than the Democrats get for actually passing things. Right. Well, let us turn to abortion. The breaking news today is that the Senate is finally acting to bust the blockade Alabama Republican Sen. Tommy Tuberville has had on military promotion since February to protest a Defense Department policy allowing service people leave to travel to other states for abortions. And Tuberville himself is part of this breakage, right, Alice? And it’s not a full breakage.

Ollstein: Right. And there have also been some interesting interviews that maybe raise questions on how much Tuberville understands the mechanics of what he’s doing because he said in an interview, “Oh, well, the people who were in these jobs before, they’ll just stay in it and it’s fine.” And they had to explain, “Well, statutorily, they can’t after a certain date.” And he seemed surprised by that. And now you’re seeing these attempts to go around his own blockade, and Democrats to go around his blockade. In part, for a while, Democrats were really not wanting to do that, schedule these votes, until he fully relented because they thought that would increase the pressure.

Rovner: They didn’t want to do it nomination by nomination for the big-picture ones because they were afraid that would leave behind the smaller ones.

Ollstein: Exactly. But this is dragging on so long that I think you’re seeing some frustration and desire to do something, even if it’s not fully resolving the standoff.

Rovner: And I’m seeing frustration from other Republicans. Again, the idea of a Republican holding up military promotions for six months is something that was not on my Republican Bingo card five years ago or even two years ago. I’m sure he’s not making a lot of his colleagues very happy with this. So on the Republican presidential campaign trail, abortion continues to be a subject all the candidates are struggling with — all of them, it seems, except former President Donald Trump, who said in an interview with NBC on Sunday that he alone can solve this. Francis, you have the tape.

Donald Trump: We are going to agree to a number of weeks or months or however you want to define it, and both sides are going to come together, and both sides, and this is a big statement, both sides will come together and for the first time in 52 years, you’ll have an issue that we can put behind us.

Rovner: OK. Well, Trump — who actually seemed all over the place about where he is on the issue in a fairly bald attempt to both placate anti-abortion hardliners in the party’s base and those who support abortion rights, whose votes he might need if he wants to win another election — criticized his fellow Republicans, who he called, “inarticulate on the subject.” I imagine that’s not going over very well among all of the other Republican candidates, right?

Ollstein: We have a piece up on this this morning. One, Trump is clearly acting like he has already won the primary, so he is trying to speak to a general audience, as you noted, and go after those votes in the middle that he may need and so he’s pitching this compromise. And we have a piece that the anti-abortion groups are furious about this, but they don’t really know what to do about it because he probably is going to be the nominee and they’re probably going to spend tens of millions to help elect him if he is, even though they’re furious with these comments he’s making. And so it’s a really interesting moment for their influence. Of course, Trump is trying to have it both ways, he also is calling himself the most pro-life president of all time. He is continually taking credit for appointing the justices to the Supreme Court who overturned Roe v. Wade.

Rovner: Which he did.

Ollstein: Exactly.

Rovner: Which is true.

Ollstein: Which he definitely did. But he is not toeing the line anymore that these groups want. These groups want him to endorse some sort of federal ban on abortion and they want him to praise states like Florida that have passed even stricter bans. He is not doing that. And so there’s an interesting dynamic there. And now his primary opponents see this as an opening, they’re trailing him in the polls, and so they’re trying to capitalize on this. [Gov. Ron] DeSantis and a bunch of others came out blasting him for these abortion remarks. But again, he’s acting like he’s already won the primary, he’s brushing it off and ignoring them.

Rovner: I love how confident he is though, that there’s a way to settle this — really, that there is a compromise, it’s just nobody’s been smart enough to get to it.

Ollstein: Well, he also, in the same interview, he said he’ll solve the Ukraine-Russia war in a day. So I mean, I think we should consider it in that context. It was interesting when I talked to all these different anti-abortion groups, they all said the idea of cutting some sort of deal is ludicrous. There is no magic deal that everybody would be happy about. If anything …

Rovner: And those on the other side will say the same thing.

Ollstein: Exactly. How could you watch what’s happened over the past year or 30 years and think that’s remotely possible? However, they did acknowledge that him saying that does appeal to a certain kind of voter, who is like, “Yeah, let’s just compromise. Let’s just get past this. I’m sick of all the fighting.” So it’s another interesting tension.

Rovner: Yeah. And I love how Trump always says the quiet part out loud, which is that this is not a great issue for Republicans and they’re not talking about it right. It’s like Republicans know this is a not-great issue for Republicans, but they don’t usually say that in an interview on national television. That is Trump, and this will continue. Well, finally this week I wanted to talk about what I am calling the dark underbelly of the new weight loss drugs. This is my extra credit this week. It’s a Washington Post story by Daniel Gilbert called “Inside the Gold Rush to Sell Cheaper Imitations of Ozempic.” It’s about the huge swell of sometimes not-so-legitimate websites and wellness spas selling unapproved formulations of semaglutide and tirzepatide — better known by their brand names Ozempic, Wegovy, and Mounjaro — to unsuspecting consumers because the demand for these diabetes drugs is so high for people who want to lose weight. The FDA has declared semaglutide at least to be in shortage for the people it was originally approved for, those with Type 2 diabetes. But that designation legally allows compounding pharmacies to manufacture their own versions, at least in some cases, except to quote the piece, “Since then, a parallel marketplace with no modern precedent has sprung up attracting both licensed medical professionals and entrepreneurs with histories ranging from regulatory violations to armed robbery.” Meanwhile, and this is coming from a separate story, both Eli Lilly and Novo Nordisk, the manufacturers of the approved versions of the drugs, are suing companies they say are selling unapproved versions of their drug, including, in some cases, drugs that actually pretend to be the brand name drug that aren’t. This is becoming really a big messy buyer-beware market, right? Rachel, you guys have written about this.

Cohrs: It has. Yeah, my colleagues have done great coverage, including I think the lawsuit by manufacturers of these drugs who are seeing their profits slipping through their fingers as patients are turning to these alternatives that aren’t necessarily approved by the FDA. And I think there are also risks because we have seen some side effects from these medications; they range from some very serious GI symptoms to strange dreams. There’s just a whole lot going on there. And I think it is concerning that some patients are getting ahold of these medications, which are expensive if you’re buying them the traditional way. And again, for weight loss, I think some of these medications are still off-label, they’re not FDA-approved. So if they’re getting these without any supervision from a medical provider or somebody who they can ask when they have questions that come up and are monitoring for some of these other side effects, then I think it is a very dangerous game for these patients. And I think it’s just a symptom of this outpouring of interest and the regulators’, I think, failure to keep up with it. And there’s also some supply concerns. So I think it’s just this perfect storm of desperation from patients and the bureaucracy struggling to keep up.

Rovner: Yeah. One of the reasons I chose the story is I really feel like this is unprecedented. I mean, I suppose it could have been predicted because these drugs do seem to be very good at what they do and they are very expensive and very hard to get, so not such a surprise that not-so-honest people might spring up to try and fill the void. But it’s still a little bit scary to see people selling heaven only knows what to people who are very anxious to take things.

Luhby: And in related news, there are more doctors who are interested in obesity medicine now, so everyone is trying to cash in.

Rovner: Yeah, I mean, eventually I imagine this will sort itself out. It’s just that at the beginning when it’s so popular, although I will still … I keep thinking this, is the solution to really throw this much money at it or to try to figure out how to make these drugs cheaper? If it’s going to be such a societal good, maybe we should do something about the price. Anyway, that is my extra credit in this week’s news. Now we will take a quick break and then we’ll come back with the rest of our extra credits.

Hey, “What the Health?” listeners, you already know that few things in health care are ever simple. So, if you like our show, I recommend you also listen to “Tradeoffs,” a podcast that goes even deeper into our costly, complicated, and often counterintuitive health care system. Hosted by longtime health care journalist and friend Dan Gorenstein, “Tradeoffs” digs into the evidence and research data behind health care policies and tells the stories of real people impacted by decisions made in C-suites, doctors’ offices, and even Congress. Subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts.

OK, we are back and it’s time for our extra-credit segment. That’s when we each recommend a story we read this week we think you should read, too. As always, don’t worry if you miss it; we will post the links on the podcast page at kffhealthnews.org and in our show notes on your phone or other mobile device. Tami, why don’t you go first this week?

Luhby: Sure. Well, this week I chose a good story by one of my colleagues, Brenda Goodman. It’s titled “Supply and Insurance Issues Snarl Fall Covid-19 Vaccine Campaign for Some.” And we’ve all been hearing this, I heard this from a friend of mine who’s a doctor, we know Cynthia Cox at KFF tweeted about this. And that even though the new vaccines are ready and the Biden administration has been pushing people to go get them, and many people are eager to get them, they’re not so easy to get. Either because drugstores are running out, that’s what happened to my friend. She went in and said there just wasn’t any supply available. Or for some other people, they’re supposed to be free for most Americans, but the insurance companies haven’t caught up with that yet. So they go in and either they’re denied or the pharmacy tells them that they have to pay potentially $200 for the vaccines. So the problem here is that there’s already an issue with getting vaccines and people getting vaccinated in this country and then putting up extra hurdles for them will only cause more problems and cause fewer people to get vaccinated because some people may not come back.

Rovner: Talk about something that should have been predictable. The distributors knew it was going to be available and pretty much when, and the insurance companies knew it was going to be available and pretty much when, and yet somehow they seem to have not gotten their act together when the predictable surge of people wanting to get the vaccine early came about. Alice, you wanted to add something?

Ollstein: Just anecdotally, the supply and the demand are completely out of whack. My partner is back home in Alabama right now and he was at a pharmacy where they were just wandering around asking random people, “Will you take the shot? Will you take the shot?” And a bunch of people were saying, “No.” And meanwhile, here in D.C., myself and everyone I know is just calling around wanting to get it and not able to. And so you think we’d have figured this out better after so many years of this.

Rovner: Well, I have an appointment for tomorrow. We’ll see if it happens. Rachel, why don’t you go next?

Cohrs: Sure. I chose a KFF Health News story by Arthur Allen, and the headline is “Save Billions or Stick With Humira? Drug Brokers Steer Americans to the Costly Choice.” And I just love a story where it’s off the news cycle a little bit and we see this big splashy announcement. And I think Arthur did a great job of following up here and seeing what actually was happening with formulary placement for Humira and the new biosimilars that just came on the market.

Rovner: Yep. Remind us what Humira is?

Cohrs: Oh, yeah. So it’s one of the most profitable drugs ever. The company that makes it, AbbVie, had created this big patent thicket to try to prevent it from competition for a very long time, but this year saw competition that had been on the market in Europe finally come online in the U.S. So again, a big change for AbbVie, for the market. But I think there was concern about whether people would actually switch to these new medications that have lower prices. But again, as it gets caught up and spit out of our drug supply chain, there are a whole lot of incentives that don’t necessarily result in the cheaper medication being prescribed. And Arthur found that Express Scripts and Optum, which are two of the three biggest pharmacy benefit managers, have the biosimilar versions of Humira at the same price as Humira. So that doesn’t really create a lot of incentive for people to switch. So I think it was just great follow-up reporting and we don’t really have a lot of visibility into these formularies sometimes. So I think it was a illuminating piece.

Rovner: Yeah. And the mess that is drug pricing. Alice.

Ollstein: So I also chose a great piece by my colleague Adam Cancryn and it’s called “The Anti-Vaccine Movement Is on the Rise. The White House Is at a Loss Over What to Do About It.” It’s part of a series we’re doing on anti-vax sentiment and its impacts. And this is just going into how the Biden administration really doesn’t have a plan for combating this, even as it’s posing a bigger and bigger public health threat. And some of their attempts to go after misinformation online were stymied in court and they also are struggling with not wanting to elevate it by debunking it — that that age-old tension of, is it better to just ignore it or is it better to combat it directly? A lot of this is also tying into RFK Jr.’s presidential bid and how much to acknowledge that or not. But the impact is that they’re not really taking this on, even as it’s getting worse and worse in the country.

Rovner: And I got a bunch of emails this week about the anti-vax movement spreading to pets — that people are now resisting getting their dogs and cats vaccinated. Seriously. I mean, it is a serious problem. Obviously, if people stop getting rabies vaccines, that could be a big deal. So something else to watch. All right. Well, I already did my extra credit. So that is it for this week. As always, if you enjoy the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left us a review; that helps other people find us, too. Special thanks as always to our indefatigable engineer, Francis Ying. Also, as always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org. Or you can tweet me; I’m still @jrovner on X and on Bluesky. Tami?

Luhby: You can tweet me at @Luhby. I sometimes check it still.

Rovner: Rachel.

Cohrs: I’m on X @rachelcohrs.

Rovner: Alice.

Ollstein: I’m @AliceOllstein.

Rovner: We will be back in your feed next week. Until then, be healthy.

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Julie Rovner is chief Washington correspondent and host of KFF Health News’ weekly health policy news podcast, “What the Health?” A noted expert on health policy issues, Julie is the author of the critically praised reference book “Health Care Politics and Policy A to Z,” now in its third edition.

For the first time since 2004, it appears health insurance coverage will not be a central issue in the presidential campaign, at least judging from the first GOP candidate debate in Milwaukee Wednesday night. The eight candidates who shared the stage (not including absent front-runner Donald Trump) had major disagreements over how far to extend abortion restrictions, but there was not even a mention of the Affordable Care Act, which Republicans have tried unsuccessfully to repeal since it was passed in 2010.

Meanwhile, a new poll from KFF finds that health misinformation is not only rampant but that significant minorities of the public believe things that are false, such as that more people have died from the covid vaccine than from the covid-19 virus.

This week’s panelists are Julie Rovner of KFF Health News, Joanne Kenen of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico, Victoria Knight of Axios, and Margot Sanger-Katz of The New York Times.

Panelists

Joanne Kenen
Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico

@JoanneKenen

Read Joanne's stories

Victoria Knight
Axios

@victoriaregisk

Read Victoria's stories

Margot Sanger-Katz
The New York Times

@sangerkatz

Read Margot's stories

Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:

• The first Republican presidential debate of the 2024 cycle included a spirited back-and-forth about abortion, but little else about health care — and that wasn’t a surprise. During the primary, Republican presidential candidates don’t really want to talk about health insurance and health care. It’s not a high priority for their base.
• The candidates were badly split on abortion between those who feel decisions should be left to the states and those who support a national ban of some sort. Former Vice President Mike Pence took a strong position favoring a national ban. The rest revealed some public disagreement over leaving the question completely to states to decide or advancing a uniform national policy.
• Earlier this summer, Stanford University’s Hoover Institute unveiled a new, conservative, free-market health care proposal. It is the latest sign that Republicans have moved past the idea of repealing and replacing Obamacare and have shifted to trying to calibrate and adjust it to make health insurance a more market-based system. The fact that such plans are more incremental makes them seem more possible. Republicans would still like to see things like association health plans and other “consumer-directed” insurance options. Focusing on health care cost transparency could also offer an opportunity for a bipartisan moment.
• In a lawsuit filed this week in U.S. District Court in Jacksonville, two Florida families allege their Medicaid coverage was terminated by the state without proper notice or opportunity to appeal. It seems to be the first such legal case to emerge since the Medicaid “unwinding” began in April. During covid, Medicaid beneficiaries did not have to go through any kind of renewal process. That protection has now ended. So far, the result is that an estimated 5 million people have lost their coverage, many because of paperwork issues, as states reassess the eligibility of everyone on their rolls. It seems likely that more pushback like this is to come.
• A new survey released by KFF this week on medical misinformation found that the pandemic seems to have accelerated the trend of people not trusting public health and other institutions. It’s not just health care. It’s a distrust of expertise. In addition, it showed that though there are people on both ends — the extremes — there is also a muddled middle.
• Legislation in Texas that was recently signed into law by Republican Gov. Greg Abbott hasn’t gotten a lot of notice. But maybe it should, because it softens some of the state’s anti-abortion restrictions. Its focus is on care for pregnant patients; it gives doctors some leeway to provide abortion when a patient’s water breaks too early and for ectopic pregnancies; and it was drafted without including the word “abortion.” It bears notice because it may offer a path for other states that have adopted strict bans and abortion limits to follow.

Plus, for “extra credit,” the panelists suggest health policy stories they read this week they think you should read, too:

Julie Rovner: KFF Health News’ “Doctors and Patients Try to Shame Insurers Online to Reverse Prior Authorization Denials,” by Lauren Sausser.

Margot Sanger-Katz: KFF Health News’ “Life in a Rural ‘Ambulance Desert’ Means Sometimes Help Isn’t on the Way,” by Taylor Sisk.

Joanne Kenen: The Atlantic’s “A Simple Marketing Technique Could Make America Healthier,” by Lola Butcher.

Victoria Knight: The New York Times’ “The Next Frontier for Corporate Benefits: Menopause,” by Alisha Haridasani Gupta.

Also mentioned in this week’s episode:

• NPR’s “Two Families Sue Florida for Being Kicked off Medicaid in ‘Unwinding’ Process,” by Selena Simmons-Duffin
• NPR’s “Texas Has Quietly Changed Its Abortion Law,” by Selena Simmons-Duffin.
• KFF’s “Poll: Most Americans Encounter Health Misinformation, and Most Aren’t Sure Whether It’s True or False.”

Click to open the transcript

Transcript: A Not-So-Health-y GOP Debate

[Editor’s note: This transcript, generated using transcription software, has been edited for style and clarity.]

Julie Rovner: Hello and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Julie Rovner, chief Washington correspondent for KFF Health News. And I’m joined by some of the best and smartest health reporters in Washington. We’re taping this week on Thursday, Aug. 24, at 10 a.m. As always, news happens fast, and things might have changed by the time you hear this. So, here we go. We are joined today via video conference by Margot Sanger-Katz of The New York Times.

Margot Sanger-Katz: Good morning.

Rovner: Joanne Kenen of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico.

Joanne Kenen: Hi, everybody.

Rovner: And Victoria Knight of Axios News.

Victoria Knight: Hello, everyone.

Rovner: No interview this week, but we’ll have an entire interview episode next week. More on that later. First, we will get to this week’s news. Well, Wednesday night saw the first Republican presidential debate of the 2024 cycle, minus front-runner Donald Trump, in what could only be called a melee, on Fox News Channel. And while there was a spirited debate about abortion, which we’ll get to in a minute, I didn’t hear a single word about anything else health-related — not Medicare or Medicaid, nor any mention of the Affordable Care Act. Was anybody surprised by that? For the record, I wasn’t. I wasn’t really expecting anything except abortion.

Kenen: Well, somebody, I think it was [former New Jersey Gov. Chris] Christie actually pointed out that nobody was talking about it.

Knight: Mike Pence. It was [former Vice President] Mike Pence, actually.

Kenen: Oh, Pence. OK. “Nobody’s talking about Medicare and Social Security.” And then he didn’t talk about it, and nobody mentioned the ACA.

Rovner: Is the ACA really gone as a Republican issue, for this cycle, do we think?

Kenen: Well, I think it’s become, like, a guerrilla warfare. Like, they’re still trying to undermine it. They’re not trying to repeal it, but they’re looking at its sort of soft underbelly, so to speak, and trying to figure out where they can put more market forces on, which we can sort of come back to later. But they spent 10 years trying to repeal it, and they just figured out what they’ve got to do now is pretend it’s not there. Right now, abortion is their topic.

Rovner: Well, let us turn to that.

Sanger-Katz: Yeah, I was just going to say that we’ve been seeing this happen a little bit over the last couple of cycles. In the 2020 race — I went through the transcripts of all of the speakers during the Republican National Convention and was really staggered by how few mentions of Obamacare there were relative to the way that the issue had been discussed in the past. But I think — just a note, that this is the Republican debate. Republicans don’t really want to be talking about health insurance and health care, because they don’t really have affirmative plans to put forward and because I think that they see that there are some real political liabilities in staking out a strong position on these issues. But in a general election, I think it will be impossible for them to avoid it, because, I think, Joe Biden has a lot of things that he wants to say. I think he is very committed to, in particular, broadcasting that he wants to protect Medicare. I think he’s quite proud of the expansions that he’s made of the Affordable Care Act. And so, this is a little bit of a weird moment in the race because, you know, we really only have one party that’s having a primary, and its leading candidate is not participating in the debates. And so, I think these candidates are trying to focus elsewhere. But it is — I will say, as someone who’s covered a couple of these now — it is a weird experience to have health care and health policy feel like a second-tier issue, because it was so central — Obamacare, in particular — was just so central to so many of these election cycles and such an animating and unifying issue among Republican voters, that this kind of post-failure-of “repeal and replace” era feels very different.

Kenen: One really quick thing is, they’re going to hit Biden on inflation. Economically, it’s his most vulnerable point, and health care costs are a burden. And I was a little surprised, without going into Obamacare and repeal and all that stuff, they mentioned the price of food, the price of gas, they mentioned interest rates and housing. It would have been really easy, and I expect that at some point they will start doing it, to talk about the cost of health care, because Biden’s done a huge amount on coverage and making insurance more affordable and accessible. But the cost of health care, as we all know, is still high in America.

Rovner: And at very least, the cost of prescription drugs, which has been a bipartisan issue going back many, many years. All right. Well, the one health issue that, not surprisingly, did get a lot of attention last night was abortion. With the exception of Mike Pence, who has been an anti-abortion absolutist for his entire tenure in Congress, as governor of Indiana, and as vice president, everyone else looked pretty uncomfortable trying to walk the line between the very anti-abortion base of the party and the recognition that anti-abortion absolutism has been a losing electoral strategy since the Supreme Court overturned Roe last year. What does this portend for the rest of the presidential race and for the rest of the down-ballot next year? Rather than trying to bury the fact that they all disagree, they all just publicly disagreed?

Knight: And I think they also, like, if you listened, [former U.S. ambassador to the United Nations] Nikki Haley kind of skirted around how she would address it. She talked about some other things, like contraception and saying that there just weren’t enough votes in the Senate to pass any kind of national abortion ban. [Florida Gov.] Ron DeSantis also, similarly, said he was proud of his six-week bill but didn’t quite want to answer about a national abortion ban. There were the few that did say, like, Hey, we’re into that. And some said, You know, it needs to go back to the states. So there definitely was kind of this slew of reactions on the stage, which I think just shows that the Republican Party is figuring out what message, and they don’t have a unified one on abortion, for sure.

Rovner: I do want to talk about Nikki Haley for a second, because this is what she’s been saying for a long time that she thinks that there’s a middle ground on abortion. And, you know, bless her heart. I’ve been covering this for almost 40 years and there has never been a middle ground. And she says, well, everybody should be for contraception. Well, guess what? There’s a lot of anti-abortion stalwarts who think that many forms of contraception are abortion. So there isn’t even a consensus on contraception. Might she be able to convince people that there could be a middle ground here?

Sanger-Katz: Oh, what I found sort of interesting about her answers: I think on their face they were kind of evasive. They were like, I don’t need to answer this question because there’s not a political consensus to do these things. But I do think it was sort of revealing of where the political consensus is and isn’t that I think she’s right. Like, realistically, there aren’t the votes to totally ban abortion; there aren’t the votes to renew the Roe standard. And I think she was in some ways very honestly articulating the bind that Republicans find themselves in, where they, and I think a lot of their voters, have these very strong pro-life values. At the same time, they recognize that getting into discussions about total abortion bans gives no favors politically and also isn’t going to happen in the near future. So, I felt like, as a journalist, you know, thinking about how I would feel having asked her that question, I felt very dissatisfied by her answer, because she really didn’t answer what she would like to do. But I do think she channeled the internal debate that all these candidates are facing, which is, like, is it worth it to go all the way out there with a policy that I know will alienate a lot of American voters when I know that it cannot be achieved?

Rovner: I was actually glad that she said that because I’ve been saying the opposite is true also — everybody says, well, why didn’t, you know, Congress enshrine abortion rights when they could have? The fact is, they never could have. There have never been 60 votes in the Senate for either side of this debate. That’s why they tried early after Roe to do national bans and then a constitutional amendment. They could never get enough votes. And they tried to do the Freedom of Choice Act and other abortion rights bills, and they couldn’t get those through either. And this is where I get to remind everybody, for the 11,000th time, the family planning law, the Title X, the federal Family Planning [Services and Public Research] Act, hasn’t been reauthorized since 1984 because neither side has been able to muster the votes even to do that. Sorry, Joanne, you wanted to say something.

Kenen: No, I thought Haley’s response on abortion was actually really pretty interesting on two points, right? She didn’t technically answer the question, but she also said this question is a fantasy — you know, face it. And, you know, she said that, and then she mentioned the word contraception. She did not dwell on it. She sort of said it sort of quickly. She missed an opportunity, maybe, just for one or two more sentences. You know, she said we need to make sure that contraception … she’s the only woman on that stage. She’s a mother; she’s got two kids. And, you know, there is uncertainty. After Dobbs there were advocacy groups saying, you know, they’re going to ban contraception tomorrow, and that didn’t happen. And we still don’t know how that fight will play out and what types of contraception will be debated. But I noticed that she said that on a stage full of Republicans, and I noticed that nobody else — all men — didn’t pick up on it.

Rovner: The big divide seemed to be, do you want to leave it completely to the states or do you want to have some kind of national floor of a ban? And they seemed, yeah —

Kenen: Yeah, and the moderators didn’t pick up on that. I mean, there was such a huge brouhaha on the stage. You know, the moderators had a lot of trouble moderating last night. It wouldn’t have been easy for them to get off of abortion and follow up on contraception. But I thought it was just sort of an interesting thing that she noted it.

Sanger-Katz: I will say also, and I agree with Julie: With the possible exception of Mike Pence, even the candidates that were endorsing some kind of national abortion policy, we’re talking about a 15-week gestational limit. There really wasn’t anyone who was coming out and saying, “Let’s ban all abortions. Let’s even go to six weeks,” which many of the states, including Florida, have done. So I do think, again, like, even the candidates that were more willing to take an aggressive stand on whether the federal government should get involved in this issue were moderating the position that you might have expected for them before Dobbs.

Kenen: But even 15 weeks shows how the parameters of this conversation have changed, because what the Republicans had been doing pre-Dobbs was 20 weeks, with their so-called fetal-pain bills. So 15 weeks, which would have sounded extremely radical two years ago — compared to six weeks, 15 sounds like, oh, you know, this huge opportunity for the pro-choice people. And it is another sign of how this space has shrunk.

Sanger-Katz: Yeah, no, I don’t mean that it’s a huge opportunity for the pro-choice people, but I think it reflects that even the candidates who were willing to go the most out on the limb in wanting to enforce a national abortion restriction understand the politics do not permit them to openly advocate going all the way towards a full ban.

Rovner: While we are on the subject of Republicans and health, there actually is a new Republican plan to overhaul the health system. Sort of. It’s from the Hoover Institution at Stanford, from which a lot of conservative policy proposals emanate. And it’s premised on the concept that consumers should have better control of the money spent on their health care and a better idea of what things cost. Now, this has basically been the theme of Republican health plans for as long as I can remember. And the lead author of this plan is Lanhee Chen, who worked for Republicans in the Senate and then led presidential candidate Mitt Romney’s policy shop, and whose name has been on a lot of conservative proposals. But I find this one notable more for its timing. Republicans, as we mentioned, appear to have internalized the idea that the only thing they can agree on when it comes to health care is that they don’t like the Affordable Care Act. Is that changing or is this just sort of hope from the Republican side of the policy wonk shop?

Sanger-Katz: I think this is connected to the discussion that we had about the debate, but it feels to me like we are in a bit of a post Obamacare era where the fights about “Are we going to continue to have Obamacare or not?” have sort of faded from the mainstream of the discussion. But there’s still plenty of discussion to be had about the details. The Democrats clearly want to expand Obamacare in various ways. Some of those they have done in a temporary fashion. Others are still on the wish list. And I think this feels very much like the kind of calibration adjustment, you know, small changes, tinkers on the Republican side to try to make the health insurance market a little bit more market-based. But this is not a big overhaul kind of plan. This is not a repeal-and-replace plan. This is not a plan that is changing the basic architecture of how most Americans get their insurance and how it is paid for. This is a plan that is making small changes to the regulation of insurance and to the way that the federal government finances certain types of insurance. That said, I think the fact that it’s more incremental makes it feel like these are things that are more likely to potentially happen because they feel like there are things that you could do without having a huge disruptive effect and a big political backlash and that you could maybe develop some political consensus around.

Rovner: It does, although I do feel like, you know, this is a very 2005 plan. This is the kind of thing that we would have seen 15 years ago. But as Democrats have gotten the Affordable Care Act and discovered that the details make it difficult, Republicans have actually gotten a lot on the transparency side and, you know, helping people understand what things cost. And that hasn’t worked very well either. So there’s a long way to go, I think, on both sides to actually make some of these things work. Victoria, did you want to add something?

Knight: Yeah, I’ve been talking to Republicans a lot, trying to figure out like what is their next go-to going to be. And I think they’re pretty understanding that ACA is set in place, but they still don’t want to give up that there are alternative types of health insurance that they want to put out there. And I think that seems that’s kind of what they realize they can accomplish if they get another Republican president and they’re going to try to do association health plans again. They’re going to try to expand some of these what they call health reimbursement arrangements, things like that, to just like kind of try to add some other types of health insurance options, because I think they know that ACA is just too entrenched and that there’s not much else they can do outside of that. And then, yeah, I think focus a little more on the transparency and cost because they know that’s a winning message and that is the one thing in Congress right now on the health care end that seems to have bipartisan momentum for the most part.

Rovner: Yeah, I think you’re absolutely right. Well, another issue that could have come up in last night’s debate but didn’t was the unwinding of Medicaid coverage from the pandemic. The news this week is that the first lawsuit has been filed accusing a state of mistreating Medicaid beneficiaries. The suit filed against Florida by the National Health Law Program and other groups is on behalf of two kids, one with a disability, and a mom who recently gave birth. All would seem to still be eligible, and the mom says she was never told how to contest the eligibility determination that she was no longer eligible, and that she was cut off when she tried to call and complain. State officials say their materials have been approved by the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services, which they have, and that Florida, in fact, has a lower procedural disenrollment rate than the average state, which is also true. But with 5 million people already having been dropped from Medicaid, I imagine we’re going to start to see a little more pushback from advocacy groups about people who are, in all likelihood, still eligible and have been wrongly dropped. I’m actually a little surprised that it took this long.

Kenen: Many of the people who have been dropped, if they’re still eligible, they can get recertified. I mean, there’s no open enrollment season for Medicaid. If you’re Medicaid-eligible, you’re Medicaid-eligible. The issue is, obviously, she didn’t understand this. It’s not being communicated well. If you show up at the hospital, they can enroll you. But people who are afraid that they aren’t covered anymore may be afraid of going to the hospital even if they need to. So there’s all sorts of bad things that happen. In some of these cases, there are simple solutions if the person walks in the door and asks for help. But there are barriers to walking in the door and asking for help.

Rovner: I was going to say one of the plaintiffs in this lawsuit is a child with a disease …

Kenen: Cystic fibrosis.

Rovner: Right. That needs expensive drugs and had not been able to get her drugs because she had been cut off of Medicaid. So there’s clearly stuff going on here. It’s probably true that Florida is better than the average state, which means that the average state is probably not doing that well at a lot of these things. And I think we’re just starting to see, you know, it’s sort of mind-numbing to say, oh, 5 million people have been separated from their health insurance. And again, we have no idea how many of those have gotten other health insurance, how many of those don’t even know and won’t know until they show up to get health care and find out they’re no longer covered. And how many people have been told they’re no longer covered but can’t figure out how to complain and get back on?

Sanger-Katz: And it’s this very extreme thing that’s happening right now. But it is, in many ways, the normal system on steroids. You know, if you’ve been covering Medicaid for any period of time, as all of us have, like, people get disenrolled all of the time from Medicaid for these administrative reasons, because of some weird hiccup in the system, they move, their income didn’t match in some database. This is a problem that a lot of states face because they have financial incentives often to drop people off of Medicaid because they have to pay a portion of the cost of providing health care. And a lot of them have rickety systems, and they’re dealing with a population that often has unstable housing or complicated lives that make it hard for them to do a lot of paperwork and respond to letters in a timely way. And so part of the way that I’ve been thinking about this unwinding is that there’s a particular thing that’s happening now, and I think there’s a lot of scrutiny on it, appropriately. And I think that there should be to make sure that the states are not cutting any corners. But I also think in some ways it’s sort of like a way of pressure-testing the normal system and reminding us of all of the people who slip through the cracks in normal times and will continue to do so after this unwinding is over. And these stories in Florida, to me, do not feel that dissimilar from the kinds of stories that I have heard from patients and advocates in states long before this happened.

Rovner: Yeah, I think you’re right. It’s just shining a light on what happens. I mean, it was the oddity that they were … states were not allowed to redetermine eligibility during the pandemic because normally states are required to redetermine eligibility at least once a year. And I think some do it twice a year. So it’s, you know, these redeterminations happen. They just don’t happen all in a huge pile the way they’re happening now. And I think that’s the concern.

Sanger-Katz: And it also, I think, really shines a light on the way that Medicaid is structured, where the Affordable Care Act simplified it quite a lot because, [for example], you’re in an expansion state and you earn less than a certain amount of money, then you can get Medicaid. But there are all of these categories of eligibility where, you know, you have to be pregnant, you have to be the parent of a child of a certain age. You have to demonstrate that you have a certain disability. And I think [it] is a reminder that this is a pretty complicated safety net, Medicaid. You know, there’s lots of things that beneficiaries have to prove to states in order to stay eligible. And there’s lots of things, honestly, you know, if states really want to make sure that they are reserving resources for the people who need them, that they do need to be checking on. And so I think we’re all just sort of seeing that this is a messy, complicated process. And I think we’re also seeing that there are these gaps and holes in who Medicaid covers. And it’s not the case that we have a perfect and seamless system of universal coverage in this country. We have this patchwork and people do fall between the cracks.

Kenen: And this is one of the most vulnerable populations, obviously. Some of the elderly are also very vulnerable, but these are people who may not speak either English or Spanish. They don’t have access to computers necessarily. I mean, we’re giving the least assistance to the population that needs the most assistance. And, you know, I mean, I think if Biden wanted to be really savvy about fixing it, he’d come out with some slogan about “Instead of Medicare unwinding, it’s time to have Medicare rewinding,” or something like that, because they’re going to have to figure … I mean, they have taken some steps, but it’s a huge mess, and the uninsurance rate is going to go up, and hospitals are going to have patients that are no longer covered, and it’s not going to be good for either the health care system or certainly the people who rely on Medicaid.

Rovner: I think it’s noteworthy how much the administration has been trying not to politicize this, that apparently, you know, we keep hearing that they won’t even tell us which states, although you can … people can sort of start to figure it out. But, you know, states that are having a more difficult time keeping eligible people on the rolls, shall we say, when the administration could have … I mean, they could be trumpeting, you know, which states are doing badly and trying to shame them. And they are rather very purposely not doing that. So I do think that there’s at least an attempt to keep this as collegial, if you will, as possible in a presidential election year. So my colleagues here at KFF have a depressing, but I guess not all that surprising, poll out this week about medical misinformation and how much of the public believes things that simply aren’t true — like that more people died from the covid vaccine than covid itself, or that ivermectin is a useful treatment for the virus. It’s not. It’s for parasites. And the survey didn’t just ask about covid. People have been exposed to, and a significant percentage believe, things like that it’s harder to get pregnant if you’ve been on birth control and stop. It isn’t. Or that people who keep guns in their house are less likely to be killed by a gun than those who don’t. They’re not. But what’s really depressing is the fact that the pandemic seems to have accelerated an already spiraling trend in distrust of public institutions in general: government, local and national media, and social media. Are we ever going to be able to start to get that back? I mean, you know, we talk about the woes with public health, but this goes a lot deeper than that, doesn’t it?

Kenen: And it’s not just health care. When you look at historical metrics about trust — which I’ve had to for a course I teach — we were never a very trusting society, it turns out. We’ve had large sectors of the population haven’t been trusting of many institutions and sectors of society for decades. We’re just not too huggy in this country. It’s gotten way worse. And what you said is right, but it’s broad. It’s not just doctors. It’s not just vaccines, it’s expertise. This distrust is really corrosive. But of all the things in that survey, one that really blew me away was we’re like, what, 13 years since Obamacare was passed? Only 7% or 8% — “only,” I should say only in quotes, you know — only 7% or 8% still thought there were death panels, but something like 70% wasn’t sure if there were death panels. Like, has anyone known anyone who went before a death panel? Since 2010? And yet 70% — I mean, I may be a little off, I didn’t write it down — but it’s something like 70% weren’t sure. And that is a mind-blowing number. It just says, you know, they weren’t ready to come out and say, yes, there are death panels. But that meant that a lot of Democrats also weren’t sure if there were death panels There are no death panels.

Knight: I was just gonna say, I also thought it was interesting that it showed people do use social media to get a lot of their information, but then they also don’t trust the information that they get on there. So it’s kind of like, yeah …

Rovner: And they’re right not to!

Knight: Yeah, they’re absolutely right not to. But then it’s also like, well, they’re then just not getting health information at all, or if they’re getting it, they just don’t trust it. So just showcasing how difficult it is to fill that void of health information, like, people just aren’t getting it or don’t trust it.

Rovner: I feel like some of this is social literacy. I mean, you know, we talk about health literacy and things that people can understand, but, you know, people don’t understand the way journalism works, the difference between the national news and what you see on Facebook. And I think that’s, Joanne, going back to your point about people not trusting expertise, it’s also not being able to figure out what expertise is and who has expertise. I mean, that’s really sort of the bottom line of all this, isn’t it?

Kenen: Well, I mean, I was doing some research — I can’t remember the exact details, this was something I read several months ago — but there was one survey maybe a couple of years ago where the majority of people said they don’t trust the news they read, but they’re still getting their news from something that they don’t trust. So it sounds sort of funny, but it’s actually not. I mean, it’s really a crisis of people don’t know what to believe. The uncertainty is corrosive, and it’s health care and politics, this widening chasm of people with alternative sets of facts — or alternative worldviews, anyway. So it’s not good. I mean, it was a really good survey, it was a really interesting survey, but some of it wasn’t so surprising. I mean, that there’s still people who, like, the fertility issues and the vaccines. You can sort of understand why those have lingered in the environment we’re in. I had actually had a conversation the other day with a political scientist who had studied the death panel rumors 10 years ago. And I said, what about now? And, you know, he was sort of … he hadn’t looked at it and he was sort of saying, well, you know, there aren’t any. And people have probably figured that out by now. Well, no. I have to email him the study, right?

Sanger-Katz: Anytime that I read a study like this, I am also reminded — and I think it is useful for all of us to be reminded of this and probably most people who are listening to the podcast — that the average American is just not as tuned in on the news and on the Washington debate and on the minutia of public policy, as all of us are. So, you know, and I think that that is part of the reason why you see so many people not sure about these things. It’s clearly the case that they are being exposed to bad information and that is contributing to their uncertainty. And I think the rise of misinformation about both health policy and about actual, you know, health care, in the case of covid, is a bad and relatively newer phenomenon. But I also think a lot of people just aren’t paying that close attention, you know, and it’s good to be reminded of that.

Kenen: The book I just read that I referred to — it’s by an MIT political scientist named Adam Berinsky, and it’s called “Political Rumors.” And it just came out, and he was talking about exactly that, that we’re all exposed to misinformation. We can’t avoid it. It’s everywhere. And that for people who aren’t as engaged with day-to-day politics, they end up uncertain. That’s this messy middle, which they also use in the KFF survey. They came up with a very similar conclusion about the “muddled middle,” I think was the phrase they used. And what this political scientist said to me the other day was that, you know, pollsters tend to not look at the “I don’t know, I’m uncertain, no opinion.” They sort of shunt them aside and they look at the “yes” or “no” people. And he was saying, no, no, no, you know, this is the population we really need to pay attention to, the “Uncertains” because they’re probably the ones you can reach more. And in the real world, we saw that with vaccination, right? I mean, in the primary series — I mean, booster takeup was low — but in the primary when there was a lot of uncertainty about the vaccines, the people who said “no way I am ever going to get the vaccine” — I mean, KFF was surveying this every month — most of them didn’t. You know, a few on the margins did, but most of them who were really militantly against the vaccine didn’t take it. The ones who were “I don’t know” and “I’m a little scared” and “I’m waiting and seeing” … a lot of them did take it. They were reached. And that’s sort of an important lesson to shift the focus as we deal with distrust, as we deal with disinformation and we deal with messaging, which is good, and truth-building and confidence-building, it is that muddled middle that’s going to have to be more of a target than we have traditionally thought.

Rovner: Well, in the interest of actually giving good information, we have a couple of updates on the reproductive health front. For those of you keeping score, abortion bans took effect this week in South Carolina and Indiana after long drawn-out court battles. Meanwhile, in Texas, an update to our continuing discussion of women with pregnancy complications who’ve been unable to get care because doctors fear running afoul of that state’s ban, a couple of weeks ago, reports Selena Simmons-Duffin at NPR, Texas Gov. Greg Abbott very quietly signed a law that created a couple of exceptions to the ban for ectopic pregnancies and premature rupture of membranes, both of which are life-threatening to the pregnant woman, but just not necessarily immediately life-threatening. I had not heard a word about this change in the law until I saw Selena’s story. Had any of you?

Kenen: In fact, it should have come up because of this court case in Texas about, you know, a broader health exception — it’s not even “health,” it’s life-threatening. It’s like, at what point do you get sick enough that your life is in danger as opposed to, you know, should you be treating that woman before … you see what direction it’s going, and you don’t let them go to the brink of death? I mean, that was the court case and Abbott fought that. But yeah, it was interesting.

Rovner: It was a really interesting story that was also, you know, pushed by a state legislator who was trying very hard not to … never to say the word abortion and to just make sure that, you know, this was about health care and not abortion. It’s an interesting story, we will link to it.

Sanger-Katz: I wonder if other states will do this as well. It seems like, as we’ve discussed, you know, abortion bans are not as popular as I think many Republican politicians thought they would [be]. And I do think that these cases of women who face really terrible health crises and are unable to get treated are contributing to the public’s dislike of these policies. And on the one hand, I think that there is a strong dislike of exceptions among people who support abortion bans because they don’t want the loopholes to get so big that the actual policy becomes meaningless. On the other hand, it seems like there is a real incentive for them in trying to fix these obvious problems, because I think it contributes to bad outcomes for women and children. And I think it also contributes to political distaste for the abortion ban itself.

Kenen: But it’s very hard to legislate every possible medical problem …  I mean, what Texas did in this case was they legislated two particular medical problems. And some states … they have the ectopic — I mean, ectopic is not … there’s no stretch of the imagination that that’s viable. Right? The only thing that happens with an ectopic pregnancy is it either disintegrates or it hemorrhages. I mean, the woman is going to have a problem, but making a list of “you get this condition, you can have a medical emergency abortion, but if you have that condition and your state legislator didn’t happen to think about it, then you can’t.” I mean, the larger issue is: How do you balance the legal restrictions and medical judgments? And that’s … I don’t think any state that has a ban has completely figured that out.

Rovner: Right. And we’re back to legislators practicing medicine, which is something that I think the public does seem to find distasteful.

Sanger-Katz: I mean, I don’t think that this solves the problem at all, but I think it does show a surprising responsiveness to the particular bad outcomes that are getting the most publicity and a sort of new flexibility among the legislators who support these abortion bans. So it’s interesting.

Rovner: All right. Meanwhile, another shocking story about pregnant women being treated badly. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reported this week that a survey conducted this April found that 1 in 5 women reported being mistreated by medical professionals during pregnancy or delivery. For women of color, the rate was even higher: more than 1 in 4. Mistreatment included things like getting no response to calls for help, being yelled at or scolded, and feeling coerced into accepting or rejecting certain types of treatment. We know a lot of cases where women in labor or after birth reported problems that went ignored. Among the most notable, of course, was tennis legend Serena Williams, who gave birth to her second child this week after almost not surviving the birth of her first. We’re hearing so much about the high maternal mortality rate in the U.S. What is it going to take to change this? This isn’t something that can be solved by throwing more money at it. This has got to be sort of a change in culture, doesn’t it?

Kenen: No. I mean, it’s … if someone who’s just given birth, particularly if it’s the first time and you don’t know what’s normal and what’s not and what’s dangerous and what’s not dangerous, and, you know, it’s a trauma to your body. I mean, you know, I had a very much-wanted child, but labor is tough, right? I always say that evolution should have given us a zipper. But the philosophy should be, if someone who’s just been through this physical and emotional ordeal, has discomfort or a question or a fear, that you respect it and that you calm it down, you don’t dismiss it or yell at somebody. When you’re pregnant, you read all these books and you go to Lamaze workshops and you learn all this stuff about labor and delivery. You learn nothing about what happens right after. And it’s actually quite uncomfortable. And no one had ever told me what to expect. And I didn’t know. And I always, like, when younger women are having babies, I let them know that, you know, talk to your doctor or learn about this or be prepared for this, because that is a really vulnerable point. And that this survey — and it’s more Black and poor women, and Latina women in this survey, it’s not that … it’s disproportionate like everything else in health care — they’re being disrespected and not listened to. And some of them are going to have bad medical outcomes because of that.

Rovner: As we are seeing. All right. Well, that is this week’s news now. We will take a quick break. Then we will come back and do our extra credit.

Hey, “What the Health?” listeners: You already know that few things in health care are ever simple. So if you like our show, I recommend you also listen to “Tradeoffs,” a podcast that goes even deeper into our costly, complicated, and often counterintuitive health care system. Hosted by longtime health journalist and my friend Dan Gorenstein, “Tradeoffs” digs into the evidence and research data behind health care policies and tells the stories of real people impacted by decisions made in C-suites, doctors’ offices, and even Congress. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

OK, we’re back. It’s time for our extra-credit segment. That’s when we each recommend a story we read this week we think you should read too. As always, don’t worry, if you missed it; we will post the links on the podcast page at KFFHealthNews.org and in our show notes on your phone or other mobile device. Victoria, why don’t you go first this week?

Knight: So my extra credit is from The New York Times, and the story is called “The Next Frontier for Corporate Benefits: Menopause.” It basically details how a lot of companies are realizing that, you know, as more women get into leadership positions, high-level leadership, executive positions, they’re in their 40s, late 40s, early 50s, that’s when menopause or perimenopause starts happening. And that’s something that can last for a while. I didn’t realize the stories, that it can last almost 10 years sometimes. And so it was talking about how, you know, it affects women for a long period of time. It can also affect their productivity in the workplace and their comfort and being able to accomplish things. And so they were realizing, you know, we kind of need to do something to help these women stay in these positions. And there was actually an interesting tidbit at the very end where it was talking about some companies may even be, like, legally compelled to make accommodations. And that’s due to the new Pregnant Workers Fairness Act, which says that employers have to provide accommodations for people experiencing pregnancy but also related medical conditions. They’re saying menopause could be included in that. And just some of the benefits some of these companies were offering were access to virtual specialists, but they were talking about, like, if they need to do other things like cooling rooms and stuff like that. So I thought it was kind of interesting. And another employer benefit that maybe some employers are thinking about adding.

Kenen: I think all offices should have, like, little nap cubicles and man-woman, pregnant-not pregnant. And, you know, just like “life is rough.” [laughter]

Knight: I agree.

Kenen: Just a little corner!

Rovner: Joanne, why don’t you go next?

Kenen: Mine is from The Atlantic. It’s by Lola Butcher. And it is “A Simple Marketing Technique Could Make America Healthier.” And it’s basically talking about how some medical practices are doing what we in the news business and the tech industry knows of as “A-B testing.” You know, a tech company may try a big button or a little button and see which one consumers like. Newsrooms change headlines— headline A, headline B and see which one draws more readers — and that hospitals and medical practices have been trying to do. In some cases, it’s text messaging two different kinds of reminders to figure out, you know … one example was the message with something like 78 characters got women to book a mammogram, but a message with 155 characters did not. Two text messages were better than one for booking children’s vaccines. So some people are very excited about this. It’s getting people to do preventive care and routine care. And some people think this is just not the problem with health care, that it’s way deeper and more systemic and that this isn’t really going to move the needle. But it was an interesting piece.

Rovner: Any little thing helps.

Kenen: Right. This was an interesting piece.

Rovner: Margot.

Sanger-Katz: I wanted to talk about an article in KFF Health News from Taylor Sisk. The headline is “Life in a Rural ‘Ambulance Desert’ Means Sometimes Help Isn’t on the Way,” and it’s a really interesting exploration of some of the challenges of ambulance care in rural areas, which is a topic that is near and dear to my heart. Because when I was a reporter in New Hampshire covering rural health care delivery, I spent the better part of a year writing about ambulance services and the challenges there. And I think this story is highlighting a real challenge for people in these communities. And I think it’s also really a reminder that the ambulance system is this weird, off-to-the-side part of our health care system that I think is often not well integrated and not well thought of. It tends to be regulated as transportation, not as health care. It tends to be provided by local governments or by contractors hired by local governments as opposed to health care institutions. It tends to have a lot of difficulty with billing a very high degree of surprise billing for its patients, and also just a real lack of health services research about best practices for how fast ambulances should arrive, what level of care they should provide to people, and on and on. And I just think that it’s good that she’s highlighted this issue. And also, I think it is a reminder to me that ambulances are probably worth a little bit more attention from reporters overall.

Rovner: Well, my story is also something that’s near and dear to my heart because I’ve been covering it for a long time. It’s from my KFF Health News colleague Lauren Sausser. It’s called “Doctors and Patients Try to Shame Insurers Online to Reverse Prior Authorization Denials.” And it is a wonderful 2023 update to a fight that Joanne and I have been covering since, what, the late 1990s. It even includes comments from Dr. Linda Peeno, who testified about inappropriate insurance company care denials to Congress in 1996. I was actually at that hearing. The twist, of course, now is that while people who were wrongly denied care at the turn of the century needed to catch the attention of a journalist or picket in front of the insurance company’s headquarters. Today, an outrage post on Instagram or TikTok or X can often get things turned around much faster. On the other hand, it’s depressing that after more than a quarter of a century, patients are still being caught in the middle of appropriateness fights between doctors and insurance companies. Maybe prior authorization will be the next surprise medical bill fight in Congress. We shall see. All right. That is our show for the week. As always, if you enjoy the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left us a review; that helps other people find us, too. Special thanks, as always, to our amazing engineer, Francis Ying. Also, as always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org. Or you can tweet me or X me or whatever. I’m @jrovner, also on Bluesky and Threads. Joanne?

Kenen: I am also on Twitter, @JoanneKenen; and I’m on Threads, @joannekenen1; and Bluesky, JoanneKenen.

Rovner: Margot.

Sanger-Katz: I’m @sangerkatz.

Rovner: Victoria.

Knight: I’m @victoriaregisk on X and Threads.

Rovner: Well, we’re going to take a week off from the news next week, but watch your feed for a special episode. We will be back with our panel after Labor Day. Until then, be healthy.

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