KFF Health News' 'What the Health?': Nutrition Programs Face Their Own Shutdown
The Host
Julie Rovner
KFF Health News
Julie Rovner is chief Washington correspondent and host of KFF Health News’ weekly health policy news podcast, “What the Health?” A noted expert on health policy issues, Julie is the author of the critically praised reference book “Health Care Politics and Policy A to Z,” now in its third edition.
Health programs are feeling the pinch of the ongoing government shutdown. Funding for the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, or SNAP, and the food program for women, infants, and children, WIC, is likely to run out in November, and cuts at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention are keeping the agency from carrying out some of its primary public health functions.
Meanwhile, the Trump administration’s immigration crackdown is also leading to health consequences, and the Department of Homeland Security is trying to bolster its medical staff to cope with the large number of people in its custody.
This week’s panelists are Julie Rovner of KFF Health News, Shefali Luthra of The 19th, Alice Miranda Ollstein of Politico, and Rachel Roubein of The Washington Post.
Panelists
Shefali Luthra
The 19th
Alice Miranda Ollstein
Politico
Rachel Roubein
The Washington Post
Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:
- As the federal shutdown continues, some are facing the startling possibility that their SNAP and WIC benefits soon will be cut off. Lawmakers remain in a stalemate over renewing the enhanced Affordable Care Act subsidies that are set to expire, and the roughly 24 million people with such plans — about 90% of whom benefit from the subsidies — are starting to learn what they will owe next year without them.
- With a key weekly government report on morbidity and mortality halted amid the shutdown, the New England Journal of Medicine and the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy announced they will team up to publish public health alerts. While others are stepping in to fill the gap left by the Trump administration’s pullback from public health, the federal government’s data and ability to access information are not easily replaced.
- It’s unclear whether the Trump administration’s plan to make in vitro fertilization more accessible will yield a substantial improvement in access to fertility treatments. Some employers already offer supplemental IVF benefits, and so far there are few details, such as how generous the Trump proposal would require coverage to be.
Also this week, Rovner interviews KFF Health News’ Katheryn Houghton, who wrote the latest “Bill of the Month” feature, about a broken elbow and a nearly six-figure bill.
Plus, for “extra credit” the panelists suggest health policy stories they read this week that they think you should read, too:
Julie Rovner: ProPublica’s “The Shadow President,” by Andy Kroll.
Shefali Luthra: The 19th’s “More People Are Freezing Their Eggs — But Most Will Never Use Them,” by Shalini Kathuria Narang, Rewire News Group.
Alice Miranda Ollstein: Brown University’s “New Study: AI Chatbots Systematically Violate Mental Health Ethics Standards.”
Rachel Roubein: The Washington Post’s “Errors in New Medicare Plan Portal Mislead Seniors on Coverage,” by Dan Diamond and Akilah Johnson.
Also mentioned in this week’s podcast:
- Politico’s “ICE Is Hiring Dozens of Health Workers as Lawsuits, Deaths in Custody Mount,” by Alice Miranda Ollstein and Ruth Reader.
- The 19th’s “ICE Keeps Detaining Pregnant Immigrants — Against Federal Policy,” by Shefali Luthra and Mel Leonor Barclay.
- The Associated Press’ “Anti-Science Bills Hit Statehouses, Stripping Away Public Health Protections Built Over A Century,” by Michelle R. Smith and Laura Ungar.
Click to open the transcript
Transcript: Nutrition Programs Face Their Own Shutdown
[Editor ‘s note: This transcript was generated using both transcription software and a human ‘s light touch. It has been edited for style and clarity.]
Julie Rovner: Hello and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Julie Rovner, chief Washington correspondent for KFF Health News, and I’m joined by some of the best and smartest reporters in Washington. We’re taping this week on Thursday, Oct. 23, at 10 a.m. As always, news happens fast and things might have changed by the time you hear this. So, here we go.
Today we are joined via videoconference by Shefali Luthra of The 19th.
Shefali Luthra: Hello.
Rovner: Alice Miranda Ollstein of Politico.
Alice Miranda Ollstein: Hi there.
Rovner: And Rachel Roubein of The Washington Post.
Rachel Roubein: Hi.
Rovner: Later in this episode we’ll have my interview with my KFF Health News colleague Katheryn Houghton, who reported and wrote the latest “Bill of the Month” about a broken elbow that cost nearly six figures to fix. But first, this week’s news.
So, today is Day 23 of the government shutdown, and there is still no discernible end in sight. But even though the Trump administration is playing fast and loose with the law that’s supposed to ban most spending without the consent of Congress, more ramifications to the shutdown are starting to be felt. It appears that both big federal nutrition programs — food stamps and WIC, which serves pregnant and breastfeeding women and the youngest children — will soon run out of money, which someone on social media pointed out would mean people going hungry on Thanksgiving, which is not a great look for the government. Yet both Republicans and Democrats still think they’re winning this fight. Really?
Ollstein: I feel like every week we’re like: Yep, still shut down. Yep, no real meaningful progress on negotiations. And we’re just in a “Groundhog Day” time loop here.
Rovner: And now the president’s off to Asia in addition to everything else.
Ollstein: Yes, but he wasn’t really super engaged on the shutdown and the reopening. Actually, some lawmakers in both parties have been begging him to get involved, saying it’s really the only way for this to work itself out and to strike some sort of deal on the Obamacare subsidies, is for President [Donald] Trump to be the leader of the Republican Party and tell them to get in line, basically. But that has not happened, and without that happening we haven’t seen a ton of real progress.
Roubein: I mean, I think one thing we’re all looking for is we’ve obviously started seeing rates in some states go up.
Rovner: For the ACA [Affordable Care Act]. Yeah.
Roubein: Yes, for the Obamacare exchanges, due to the impending expiration of the subsidies. But—
Rovner: And the impending open enrollment that starts Nov. 1.
Roubein: Exactly. And so we’ve not yet seen posted on HealthCare.gov, the federal site that some states use, those rates. So I think everyone’s also watching and waiting to see those rates, which are expected to go up.
Rovner: Well, we’ll get to the ACA in a minute, but first I want to talk a little bit more about some of the things that are actually happening because the government is shut down. Over at the CDC [Centers for Disease Control and Prevention], where furloughs have been followed by firings that may or may not be legal, remaining staff are unable to attend this week’s big international meetings on infectious diseases, which feels like something you’d want public health professionals to be kind of up to date on.
And with the so far temporary stoppage of the CDC’s Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, which is kind of the weekly bible of public health, now the New England Journal of Medicine and CIDRAP [the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy], the public health institute at the University of Minnesota, announced at that same infectious disease conference that they would begin publishing their own public health alerts to try and fill the void of the MMWR. It’s not clear to me if this is intended to be temporary and will stop if and when MMWR is back up and running. Or is RFK [Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr.] actually succeeding in his quest to dismantle the CDC and leave public health up to states and private funders? Is this sort of the decline and fall of the federal role in public health?
Ollstein: I mean, I think it’s a step in a trajectory we’ve been seeing for a few years. It’s not brand-new. I mean, it reminds me of how during the peak of the covid pandemic, outside institutions, academic and otherwise, were setting up their own trackers and other data tools because they did not trust the federal government. And we’re sort of back in that same situation. It’s both a lack of trust in the federal government and the people running it, as well as this new slashing of resources and institutions and a desire to build sort of independent ones that can’t be sort of subject to these political whims in the future.
Although the idea was that the MMWR was protected from political whims, but that is maybe no longer the case. And so it’s tough because building these independent outside versions, they just won’t have the same resources. They won’t have the same access to data that the federal ones that they’re trying to replace had. So it’s not like a one-to-one. And again, seeing the splintering of trust. And so there’s a portion of the public that doesn’t trust the federal government right now, but there’s going to be a portion of the public that won’t trust this alternative setup, either. So it’s just very hard to have a gold standard fount of data that everyone can agree on.
Roubein: Just in sort of the public health space, we’re seeing this really particularly in vaccine policy. It’s starting to fracture along state and political lines. We’re seeing states in the Northeast and the West with their own coalitions to make shot recommendations. We’re seeing groups trying to, like major medical associations, putting out recommendations and saying that they don’t trust the new ACIP [Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices]. So that’s, I mean, I think a kind of tangible spot there.
Rovner: I would say, since I have all three of my abortion experts here, I mean one of the things that we’ve seen since the fall of Roe is that every state now has a completely different policy on reproductive health. Are we moving to the point where every state is also going to have a completely different policy on these public health issues?
Luthra: I think that’s really plausible, but just thinking about Rachel’s point about vaccines in particular, one of the most important differences there is that vaccines are effective when more people use them. And with abortion, we have seen these sort of patchworks take effect. People can travel. People can get pills mailed to them. And there’s a strain on this system. But if someone doesn’t get an abortion in Texas, that doesn’t necessarily affect the health of someone a few states over. But if we see some people have ready access to vaccines and trust in the system that enables them to get that kind of preventive health care and in other parts of the country we don’t, eventually what happens is that there is broader spread of disease and worse public health consequences for all of us.
Rovner: Which is kind of why we have a national public health infrastructure in the first place. We’ll clearly come back to this, but let’s move back to what’s driving this shutdown in the first place, as you mentioned, Rachel, which is the high and growing cost of health care. The Paragon Institute, which is providing what seems to be most of the Republicans’ talking points on health care these days, is pushing a new argument that the expiration of the additional Affordable Care Act tax credits are only a small piece of the increasing premiums for 2026. And that’s true. The CBO [Congressional Budget Office] said in its estimates that insurers are raising premiums slightly to make up for the loss of policyholders who are likely to drop their coverage, which will raise costs for everybody else. But the bigger reasons that premiums are going up are things like tariffs and industry consolidation and the general increase in health care cost.
But I’m wondering if that very semantic point, that the subsidy expiration is only a tiny part of the premium increase is going to make much difference to the people who are going to see their out-of-pocket costs double or more, because while the premium might only be going up a few percentage points, the expiring tax credit will dwarf that, because now they’re going to have to pay the whole premium instead of just a portion of the premium. It’s like your employer’s premiums are going up 5%, but your employer is cutting its contribution in half. That doesn’t seem like a very big solace to people who were — even though the expirations are a little bit of the premium increase, you’re still going to see a bill that says a thousand dollars a month instead of $200 a month, right?
Ollstein: I think we’re seeing that realization take hold. I mean, I know we’ve talked on the podcast before about a small handful of Republicans coming out and saying: Look, my kids’ premiums are going up. We really have to do something, people. Including some members you might not expect, like [Rep.] Marjorie Taylor Greene, very, very conservative folks who say: Look, I’m no fan of Obamacare, but we have to act. This is really bad. Meanwhile, you still have other lawmakers downplaying it, saying, Oh, those subsidies, that was a covid thing and covid’s over, so we don’t need that. But I think the more the plans and the costs start to solidify and people start getting these notifications, the political pressure will continue to build, but build towards what we’re not really sure at this point.
Rovner: Yeah, we’ve seen, I think we’re starting to actually see these premiums in a dozen states. And Rachel, as you mentioned, we will see the federal premiums soon and that might spur something. Meanwhile, the Democrats have a new talking point as well to counter the Republican complaints that the subsidies for the ACA coverage are exceedingly high. They point out that all other forms of health insurance coverage are also heavily subsidized by the government, Medicare and Medicaid by the federal and state governments and employer coverage by the tax exclusion that makes premiums tax-free for both employers and employees. So why, they say, should the individual market be the only one that is not highly subsidized? Effective or a little bit too complicated for this?
Roubein: I mean, I think in general, like at the sort of macro level, we tend to see this in health care. When there’s some benefit or there’s a new policy, it is hard to change that. A lot of things that are supposed to sort of, in Congress they’ll do for a few years, tend to just get extended on and on because it then becomes a pain point.
Rovner: So in the end, I mean, do these subsidies get extended or we still have to wait and see how painful this pain point gets?
Roubein: Who’s to say? I don’t like to always predict what Congress will do, so—
Rovner: Certainly not this year.
Luthra: One thing I will add in there is that we did some polling recently at The 19th just looking at broad economic concerns among other issues, and health care costs are a very serious concern for just a huge majority of Americans. It’s not even, I mean, across the board, this is true. It’s even more true for women. We know that the subsidies had and have had a really meaningful impact for a lot of specific demographics. Women are one of those, so are a lot of more conservative-leaning voters. And I just think that we may not know what will happen with the subsidies, but what we can say is that it’s a really big deal to a lot of people who will be affected, and it’s hard not to imagine that affecting how they think about their representation and ultimately whether government is working for them when they look at their health care getting more expensive.
Rovner: I don’t carry around a lot of numbers in my head, but the numbers that I carry around include 24 million people who are getting ACA coverage, 90% of whom are getting subsidies. So, it’s a lot of people, as we’ve said many times, in a lot of pretty Republican states. So we’ll see when the yelping really starts. Well, I want to talk a little bit about immigration and health because we have two excellent stories about health care and immigration this week, written or co-written by two of our panelists. How convenient. Alice, tell us about your story about ICE [Immigration and Customs Enforcement] hiring more health workers.
Ollstein: My co-worker and I noticed that all of these jobs were posted for doctors, nurses, pharmacists, therapists, health care workers to work specifically in ICE detention. And we were interested in, why go on this hiring spree? I mean, we’re in a government shutdown. It’s not exactly hiring season. But once we started looking into it — well, one, the federal government did not respond to our questions about why they’re hiring and what they hope to achieve. But we saw that the detainee population has exploded to record levels and the number of deaths has gone way up. We are approaching the number of deaths, just in 10 months this year, almost as much as occurred over the four years of the Biden administration. Now, the actual rate isn’t as high because there’s just so many more detainees, but it’s very troubling and people are dying of both sort of acute and chronic factors.
And so there’s all these lawsuits right now about medical neglect and poor access to medical care in ICE detention. There are multiple hunger strikes going on in multiple states related to We’re being denied access to health care. And so all of this is sort of building to a crisis point. And people are being held in facilities that weren’t meant to hold people, let alone this many people, these sort of tent cities they’re standing up very quickly. Facilities are overcrowded, which makes it hard to control the spread of disease. Just a lot of issues going on. And so we talk to people about what could hiring some new medical personnel, what could that help address and what is it not likely to address in terms of the conditions.
Rovner: Yeah, I mean it seems when you have that many people in detention, hiring a couple of dozen of health workers is going to not really solve the problem.
Ollstein: Right. So, one, we don’t know if and when these people will be hired, but even so, again, a few dozen compared to they’re trying to grow the population of detainees by tens of thousands. The numbers don’t really add up.
Rovner: Well, Shefali, you have a story that kind of follows onto that, about women who are pregnant or nursing being taken into immigration custody, which is a change from prior practice, and the sometimes tragic outcomes of that. What did you find?
Luthra: So this story came because we just kept seeing individual lawsuits and single reports of someone saying: I was detained while I was pregnant. Here are the conditions I was held in. Some people reported miscarriages. Some people just reported really substandard care. And it came to become clear to us that this appeared to be somewhat of a trend, is these women were being detained, sometimes for short periods, sometimes for longer periods, and they were having adverse health consequences.
And so we did some digging. We learned that there actually was a policy put in place that said you are not supposed to detain people who are pregnant, who are nursing, who are a year postpartum, unless there are really extenuating circumstances. We looked everywhere to see: Had this been rescinded anywhere? And it hadn’t been. And that was just so striking to us because this policy is technically still in place. ICE is not supposed to be detaining these people, and every doctor you speak to will say: Well, we can’t study. There’s no randomized control trial of being detained versus not and pregnant and what happens to you.
But we know what is good for pregnancy and what is not, and we can say that the best practices are you shouldn’t detain people where access to prenatal care is sporadic at best, maybe not in the language that you speak. The food will not work for you, especially if you have these strong aversions. You may not be able to talk to someone right away if you suspect you are miscarrying. There’s a lot of psychological and physical stress. And then at the same time, the government has stopped reporting just how many of these cases there are.
And so there’s a lot of efforts underway to try and figure out as detention gets broader and broader, they try and, as Alice said, really increase the number of people being detained. We are seeing more women in particular, more pregnant, postpartum nursing women, being detained, and the numbers will just not be able to give us that clear sense of who they are or also what the health consequences can be.
Rovner: We’ll try to keep an eye on it there. I will post links obviously to both of your stories. I want to talk about MAHA, Make America Healthy Again. The AP [Associated Press] has a series out this week tracking the organized campaign by those with financial interest in the MAHA movement to, in the words of the story, quote, “strip away protections that have been built over a century” in public health. The reporters, including KFF Health News alum Laura Ungar, tracked 420 anti-science bills introduced in 43 state legislatures around the country focusing on vaccines, fluoride, and raw milk. They also tracked back those pushing the legislation to the supplement and wellness product sellers, raw milk farmers, and others who stand to profit from focusing on the MAHA priorities. For all of Secretary Kennedy’s accusations about the health care industry being in the pocket of Big Pharma or Big Food, can’t it also be said that many of his allies are in the pocket of Big Wellness?
Ollstein: I think that it has been fascinating that the wellness industry, the supplements industry, these aren’t being seen as the big capitalist forces that they really have become. And they’re far less regulated than the industries that the movement rails against, like food and like the pharmaceutical industry. And yet it sort of has this sheen of virtue that is — it’s gotten a lot less scrutiny and a lot less questioning. And so I wonder if that changes as this power shift happens at the state and federal level.
Rovner: Yeah. I think the raw milk producers I think really probably shocked me the most, maybe because I knew about the other ones, but sort of the power of the burgeoning raw milk industry. By the way, if you don’t pasteurize milk, you can get all kinds of bacteria and viruses and other bad things from drinking raw milk. It’s one of those things, like many of these things, that sounds great until you actually look into it. Rachel, you wanted to add something?
Roubein: Oh yeah, I was just going to say that I think in general, this push from the Make America Healthy Again movement, its allies into state legislatures, has been very coordinated. This is a big goal of the MAHA movement. Allies aligned with Kennedy are pushing a range of bills. They’re also pushing bills around food that did pass the state legislatures last year, such as barring SNAP [Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program] recipients from using their benefits to buy soda or cracking down on artificial dyes in the food supply. But in general, Kennedy has not put sort of sweeping regulations, new regulations, around food, around pesticides, etc. And instead, a lot of allies are seeking to use the states, particularly when it comes to food, to sort of pressure companies and then be able to kind of pressure into a sort of federal, a more kind of national push.
Rovner: That’s kind of this administration’s theme, right? It’s: We’re not going to regulate, because we don’t like regulation. We’re just going to do individual deals with individual companies. I mean, certainly that’s what Trump’s doing with tariffs and other things, and it looks like that’s what Kennedy’s doing too, right? Seeing nodding.
Well, moving on. Like pretty much every week, there is news on the reproductive health front. Late last week, President Trump unveiled his plan to improve access to IVF [in vitro fertilization] for people hoping to get pregnant. During the 2024 campaign, he very specifically promised to make IVF free, either by having the government pay for it or requiring insurers to cover it, quote, “because we want more babies,” he said. But his plan doesn’t really do either of those things, right? It doesn’t make it free. I’m seeing shaking heads. Someone explain what it actually does do.
Ollstein: So there’s two pieces of this. One is a voluntary agreement with a pharmaceutical company to lower the cost of one fertility drug. It’s not a drug that every single person who goes through the process uses, but a lot of people do use it. I will also note that out of the total cost of IVF, the cost of these drugs is just like a fraction of it. Less than a quarter is what I was told when I talked to experts. So this doesn’t do anything to lower the cost of the consultations, the egg retrievals, the egg storage, the embryo implantation. All of those costs are unchanged. So there’s the drug crisis — yeah.
Rovner: I would say basically if you don’t have coverage for IVF and you can’t afford it on your own, lowering the cost of the drug is nice but it’s not going to make you able to afford it. Right?
Ollstein: Likely not. Likely not. But the other piece of it is we’re still waiting for the exact text of what this guidance and regulation will consist of, but just going off of what they’ve said, they want to make it easier for employers to offer supplemental IVF coverage that’s separate from the regular health plan. Now, I’ve talked to some experts who are really skeptical that that will make a difference. One, employers can already do that. Politico offers supplemental IVF coverage.
Rovner: So does KFF Health News.
Ollstein: There you go. And so it’s not clear what this guidance, which comes with no funding, no incentives, no mandates, why an employer that didn’t already offer it would choose to offer it now. It’s not totally clear. But also making it this separate supplemental thing, you get into this adverse selection situation where the only people who are going to sign up for it are the people who plan to use it, and that doesn’t spread the cost around and bring it down like regular insurance does.
Luthra: And I think it’s worth noting, if we even — to Alice’s point, we don’t have a lot of details yet about how these plans would work — but going off of everything they said in their remarks, looking through what documentation has been put out so far, one thing we keep hearing about from administration officials is the flexibility within these plans and the ideas that employers could offer benefits that match their values.
Which I think is really interesting because when you talk about fertility benefits, some people do have moral objections to IVF, and when you talk about matching their values, there’s a real question there: Are these plans actually required to cover IVF with multiple embryos, created with embryos discarded? We also heard a lot of chatter about offering benefits that would address the root causes of infertility. And this has become somewhat of an allusion to other forms, regimens, ideas of what fertility treatment can be that conservatives call restorative reproductive medicine.
And I think as we get more details, a really important question to see is, how generous do these plans have to be, or are they in practice? Do they actually cover IVF in a way that is meaningful and actually addresses people’s needs? Or do they instead offer limited coverage of something that is less effective, maybe already covered, and certainly already affordable for a lot of Americans?
Rovner: So one would assume that this plan is sort of meek because the administration is trying to be sensitive to the portion of the anti-abortion movement that opposes IVF because, as you say, you often create multiple embryos and then don’t end up using them and they end up getting destroyed. So is the politics of this going to satisfy both sides or going to dissatisfy both sides of this fight?
Luthra: The anti-abortion movement seems to understand that it could have been worse for them, but they are not thrilled about it, either. You mentioned, when we were discussing this part of the show, the Vox article, which I thought had a really great headline, by Rachel Cohen Booth, which was “Trump Manages To Disappoint Nearly Everyone With His New IVF Plan,” which I think is about right. I mean, this is not what people who want broad access to IVF would actually hope for, and this is certainly not what conservatives who oppose IVF would hope for, either, because they want something that is more sweeping in its criticism of IVF as it’s practiced. They want something that more full-throatedly endorses what they support instead. And it’s neither of them. It’s just sort of trying to find something that pleases everyone and, as a result, not necessarily changing that much.
Rovner: Politics as usual. Well, meanwhile, Bloomberg has a really provocative story this week about the limbo that many Planned Parenthood clinics find themselves in. You may or may not remember that as part of the Republicans’ big budget bill that passed earlier this year, the organization lost all of its federal Medicaid funding for a year. But because of the shutdown, HHS has not yet issued guidance on which Planned Parenthoods — many of which have stopped providing abortions or never provided abortions in the first place — are covered by this funding cutoff. Making everybody uncertain and unable to plan appears to be the overall strategy for this HHS, doesn’t it?
Ollstein: Well, and on top of that, Planned Parenthood affiliates that were getting Title X family planning money had that withheld, had that frozen, and they’re still waiting to learn the fate of that portion of money. And so it’s just uncertainty piled on top of uncertainty.
Rovner: Yeah. This I imagine is not going to impact what sort of the big abortion fight is going forward, which is going to be about abortion pills sent through the mail. But one would assume that it is going to impact people who are looking for services that don’t have anything to do with abortion, that have to do with cancer screenings and STD [sexually transmitted disease] screenings and just regular, routine gynecologic care. I mean, that’s what these Planned Parenthoods are providing using Medicaid funds and using the Title X funds, neither of which can be used for abortion.
Ollstein: Right, and a lot of the clinics that have shut down in recent months — I’m thinking of the ones in Louisiana and Texas and Iowa — abortion is banned in those places. Those clinics were not providing abortions. So I’ve been seeing a lot of folks on the right celebrating those clinic closures. But again, those clinic closures don’t mean less abortion. Those clinic closures mean less access to these other services.
Rovner: All right, well, that is this week’s news, or at least as much as we have time for. Now we will play my “Bill of the Month” interview with Katheryn Houghton, and then we will come back and do our extra credits.
I am pleased to welcome back to the podcast KFF Health News’ Katheryn Houghton, who reported and wrote the latest KFF Health News “Bill of the Month.” Katheryn, welcome back.
Katheryn Houghton: Thank you so much.
Rovner: So, this month’s patient had insurance but ended up dropping it because she could no longer afford the premiums, an all too common story, and then two months later slipped and fell and broke her elbow. Tell us who she is, what kind of care she got, and how much she was told it was going to cost.
Houghton: Sure. So her name is Deborah Buttgereit. She had fractured her left arm near the joint. So this was a humerus break, and it shattered a bit. So she needed surgery to kind of piece the bones back together, and that’s pretty key to, say, be able to move her arm. So she was told it was going to cost $50,000 or just a little bit more than that, and all of that would be out of pocket because, like you said, she didn’t have health insurance.
Rovner: Yikes. So, she had the surgery. Presumably her arm is better. And then the bill came. How much did it end up being?
Houghton: A lot more than $50,000. It was more than $97,000. Though it is important to say the hospital applied a self-pay discount, which left her with a $78,000 bill.
Rovner: So what was the explanation about why it was so much more expensive than the original estimate?
Houghton: The original estimate is just that, and the way that hospitals put it is: It is our best guess of what you are going to have to pay. If there’s some sort of complication, it could cost more, and there is a small fine print in any good-faith estimate that says that. So for Deborah’s case, the hospital said there were surprise complications, which means surprise costs. Her doctor said they encountered complications kind of mid-procedure, so her bones shattered into more pieces than they expected. That meant more time in surgery, that meant more skill to fix the break, and that also meant more tools to fix the break. And all of that comes with more costs.
Rovner: Yes. So Ms. Buttgereit decided that she did not wish to pay, even though, what, $78,000 that they were hoping that she would, and found that eventually she could appeal the bill under a provision that I didn’t know was included in the federal No Surprises Act, which I thought only applied to people with health insurance. Tell us about this little not well-known piece of the No Surprises Act.
Houghton: Yeah, exactly. I mean, fair thought on it being surprising, because a lot of people don’t know this exists. Some of the policy experts I talked to were like, Oh, this exists. A little-known fact about this is the No Surprises Act also created a formal dispute process for uninsured patients or those paying completely out-of-pocket for a planned procedure, so even outside of that emergency care situation. And this process, you’re eligible for it if you’re paying out-of-pocket and your final tab is $400 or more than the initial estimate.
Rovner: Which this clearly was.
Houghton: By quite a bit.
Rovner: So in the end, she decided not to use this appeal process. Why?
Houghton: So the appeal process, the floor of a process starts at the good-faith estimate, and Deborah had said, more time to think pain-free, she started to question that $50,000 bill and started using online price comparison tools and saying: You know what? This all seems overpriced. I don’t want that to be the floor. So she’s been going back and forth and doing negotiations with the hospital. But honestly what I’m hearing from the policy experts that I spoke with for this story was there’s just not a good process or system for patients paying out-of-pocket to fight a big bill. And this dispute process is one of the only options that they see out there.
Rovner: And I take it this fight about what she’s eventually going to be required to pay is still ongoing.
Houghton: Last I heard it was still ongoing. She was still going back and forth with the hospital, which was standing by their price tag, and she was working on setting up a payment plan no matter what the final tally came to. But if it stays at that final $78,000 range, a payment plan means she would face payments for 60-plus years.
Rovner: And she’s already in her 60s, right?
Houghton: Yes. Yeah. She would be paying off this for the rest of her life.
Rovner: So it’s probably in the hospital’s interest to find a better solution. What’s the takeaway here for other patients who end up with an accident and a big bill and no health insurance?
Houghton: The takeaway is if you’re going to push back on a price, starting at the good-faith estimate is key. So once you’ve already gone through the procedure, that’s almost like acceptance of what that floor price would be. And so if you’re going to fight back, fight at the very beginning. That’s hard when you’re going through a, say, painful break and you don’t have a lot of the energy to deal with anything other than trying to be OK with yourself and take care of yourself. The other thing to know is just if you are uninsured, if you are paying out-of-pocket, there is this dispute process if you get to that point.
Rovner: Great. Katheryn Houghton, thank you so much.
Houghton: Thanks so much.
Rovner: OK, we’re back. It’s time for our extra-credit segment. That’s where we each recognize a story we read this week we think you should read, too. Don’t worry if you miss it. We will put the links in our show notes on your phone or other mobile device. Shefali, you have a story that’s related to reproductive health and IVF and all of those other good things. Tell us about it.
Luthra: Sure. So this was written by Shalini Kathuria Narang, written for Rewire News Group, co-published with the 19thnews.org. The headline is, “More People Are Freezing Their Eggs — But Most Will Never Use Them.” And I thought this was so interesting. It delves into a study that showed that 6% of people who froze their eggs between 2014 and 2021 had actually come back and used them within seven years.
There’s a Q&A with the author. But what’s so striking to me about this is, I mean, I definitely felt in the 2010s there was this huge conversation around egg freezing among especially young women who were working, this idea that this is a benefit that is being made available to you, this could actually make it much easier for you to ultimately have children if it’s something you want to do later in life when it gets harder.
And I just think this is so fascinating that this was a benefit that was really promoted, an alternative that a lot of people turned to, and that it seems that a lot of people aren’t necessarily using it. I really wonder why. I’m curious how much money has been spent on this and what this means and sort of how it helps us understand people’s reproductive choices moving forward. I just am so excited to see where this research takes us and how we better understand people’s reproductive choices.
Rovner: Yeah, it was interesting. I mean, one of the things that I found really interesting about this story was that it’s actually too soon to really know how many of them get used, because we did see this increase in young women having their eggs retrieved and frozen, and those young women, many of them are still young and not yet ready to use them. I mean, they still could, in other words.
Luthra: And many of them who froze them may not have to use them, because they froze them thinking, Oh, this is for much later, and then it turns out they actually can get pregnant without using them to begin with.
Rovner: Yeah, it’s a really provocative story. Alice.
Ollstein: Yes. So I chose this new study from Brown University. It’s titled “AI Chatbots Systematically Violate Mental Health Ethics Standards.” So the number of people who turn to ChatGPT and these other AI tools for therapy, either just chatting with it or specifically prompting it to provide therapy — that’s an increasingly common practice.
But if you read this study, you might not want to do that. This says that exhibited 15 ethical risks, including failing to refer users to appropriate resources or responding indifferently to crisis situations, including suicidal ideation. The chatbots exhibited gender, cultural, or religious bias. They used what they called deceptive empathy. They created a false bond between the bot and the user. They reinforced negative thoughts and beliefs. So this is yet more evidence that therapy is best provided by a human being who was trained and not a language predictor tool.
Rovner: Maybe it’s just that I’m old, but I don’t think I want to take personal advice from anything that learned everything it knows from the internet. That’s just me. Rachel.
Roubein: My extra credit this week is a story by my colleagues Dan Diamond and Akilah Johnson at The Washington Post. The headline is “Errors in New Medicare Plan Portal Mislead Seniors on Coverage.” So Medicare open enrollment began Oct. 15, and ahead of that, the Trump administration created this directory that was aimed at helping millions of seniors try and look up what doctors and medical providers accept which insurance.
But the portal, when it first opened, it was focused just on Medicare Advantage plans, and what my colleagues found is it frequently produced erroneous and conflicting information, and that led to a scramble inside the federal government to try and fix it. Dan and Akilah wrote about the backstory, too, which is that the Trump administration announced these plans for a national directory, but then in August they said it would be a temporary directory limited to just Medicare Advantage or private plans. After Dan and Akilah raised the problems that they were writing about to the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services last week, officials said that they were working to address the errors and seek potential solutions.
Rovner: People in other countries that have national health insurance must laugh at us about the fact that we can’t even have accurate directories of which providers take which insurance. But this has been a long-standing problem dating back as many years as we’ve had networks of doctors. Someday someone will solve it. I don’t know, maybe AI can do it.
My extra credit this week is from ProPublica. It’s called “The Shadow President,” by Andy Kroll. It’s about the rise of Russell Vought, whose name most people don’t know unless you listen to podcasts like ours, but who is the head of the White House Office of Management and Budget, the man behind lots of Project 2025, and the person calling most of the shots for the domestic policies of Trump 2.0. Trump actually proudly introduced him this week at a lunch for Republican senators as his personal Darth Vader.
What I really like about this story, though, is not just the detail of how Vought came to his beliefs, which is interesting enough, but how OMB is so intricately in charge of just about everything an administration does, which I think most people do not appreciate. This story is part of a year-long investigation with The New Yorker, and it is well worth your time, even though it’s pretty long.
All right, that is this week’s show. Thanks this week to our editor, Emmarie Huetteman, and our producer-engineer, Francis Ying. If you enjoy the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left us a review. That helps other people find us, too. Also, as always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org. Or you can find me still on X, @jrovner, or on Bluesky, @julierovner. Where are you guys hanging these days? Shefali?
Luthra: I’m on Bluesky, @shefali.
Rovner: Alice.
Ollstein: Mainly on Bluesky, @alicemiranda.
Rovner: Rachel.
Roubein: I’m on X, @rachel_roubein. Bluesky, @rachelroubein. LinkedIn, etc., Signal.
Rovner: You can find us wherever you look. We will be back in your feed next week. Until then, be healthy.
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KFF Health News' 'What the Health?': Schrödinger’s Government Shutdown
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Julie Rovner
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Julie Rovner is chief Washington correspondent and host of KFF Health News’ weekly health policy news podcast, “What the Health?” A noted expert on health policy issues, Julie is the author of the critically praised reference book “Health Care Politics and Policy A to Z,” now in its third edition.
Democrats and Republicans are both facing potential political consequences in their continuing standoff over federal government funding. Republicans are likely to face a voter backlash if they refuse to agree to Democrats’ demands that they renew additional tax credits for Affordable Care Act marketplace plans, since the majority of those facing premium hikes live in GOP-dominated states. For their part, Democrats are worried that Republicans will violate the terms of any potential spending deal.
At the same time, the Trump administration is using the shutdown to try to lay off thousands of federal workers, including those performing key public health roles at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
This week’s panelists are Julie Rovner of KFF Health News, Anna Edney of Bloomberg News, Joanne Kenen of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico Magazine, and Lauren Weber of The Washington Post.
Panelists
Anna Edney
Bloomberg News
Joanne Kenen
Johns Hopkins University and Politico
Lauren Weber
The Washington Post
Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:
- As the federal government shutdown drags on, there has been little progress toward a deal on government spending — or on the expiring ACA marketplace subsidies Democrats are fighting to renew. Potential subsidy compromises could, for instance, implement a minimal premium in place of $0 premiums, to reduce enrollment fraud, as Republicans want.
- A federal judge halted the Trump administration’s latest layoffs of federal workers amid questions about the layoffs’ legality. The administration in particular dealt a heavy blow this round to the CDC, an agency that has been battered by staff reductions, policy shifts, and even violence.
- New reporting shows the Trump administration explored the feasibility of tracing abortion pill residue in wastewater, following up on an anti-abortion claim that the drugs may be contaminating the water supply. Yet advocates could have an ulterior motive: developing the ability to trace use of the pill to further crack down on abortions.
- And President Donald Trump unveiled a deal with a second drugmaker, AstraZeneca, that allows the company to avoid tariffs in exchange for building a new U.S. facility. But as with the first deal, it’s unclear how much money the agreement will save patients.
Also this week, Rovner interviews health insurance analyst Louise Norris of Medicareresources.org about the Medicare open enrollment period, which began Oct. 15.
Plus, for “extra credit” the panelists suggest health policy stories they read this week that they think you should read, too:
Julie Rovner: Politico’s “RFK Jr.’s Got Advice for Pregnant Women. There’s Limited Data To Support It,” by Alice Miranda Ollstein.
Anna Edney: The New York Times’ “The Drug That Took Away More Than Her Appetite,” by Maia Szalavitz.
Joanne Kenen: Mother Jones’ “From Medicine to Mysticism: The Radicalization of Florida’s Top Doc,” by Kiera Butler and Julianne McShane.
Lauren Weber: KFF Health News’ “Senators Press Deloitte, Other Contractors on Errors in Medicaid Eligibility Systems,” by Rachana Pradhan and Samantha Liss.
Also mentioned in this week’s podcast:
- The Washington Post’s “She Left the Medical Mainstream and Rose To Be RFK Jr.’s Surgeon General Pick,” by Lauren Weber and Rachel Roubein.
- The Bulwark’s “There’s Something Weirdly Familiar About This New GOP Argument,” by Jonathan Cohn.
- Politico’s “4 GOP Ideas for an Obamacare Subsidies Compromise,” by Benjamin Guggenheim.
- The New York Times’ “The E.P.A. Followed Up on an Unusual Request About Abortion Pills,” by Caroline Kitchener and Coral Davenport.
- Bloomberg News’ “WHO Warns Against Three India-Made Cough Syrups After Child Deaths,” by Satviki Sanjay.
click to open the transcript
Transcript: Schrödinger’s Government Shutdown
[Editor’s note: This transcript was generated using both transcription software and a human’s light touch. It has been edited for style and clarity.]
Julie Rovner: Hello, and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Julie Rovner, chief Washington correspondent for KFF Health News, and I’m joined by some of the best and smartest health reporters in Washington. We’re taping this week on Thursday, Oct. 16, at 10 a.m. As always, news happens fast and things might’ve changed by the time you hear this. So, here we go.
Today we are joined via videoconference by Lauren Weber of The Washington Post.
Lauren Weber: Hello, hello.
Rovner: Anna Edney of Bloomberg News.
Anna Edney: Hi.
Rovner: And Joanne Kenen of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico Magazine.
Joanne Kenen: Hey, everybody.
Rovner: Later in this episode we’ll play my interview with health insurance expert Louise Norris, who will explain some of the changes coming with this year’s open enrollment for Medicare, which began Wednesday. But first, this week’s news.
So, today is Day 16 of the government shutdown, and there is still no discernible end in sight. This week Republicans shifted their main talking point against Democrats. They were arguing that Democrats are trying to restore eligibility for Medicaid to illegal immigrants. Now it’s become a general takedown of the Affordable Care Act and arguing that in urging continuing the expanded tax credits for ACA premiums, Democrats want to throw good money after bad, because the ACA has made health care more expensive.
First off, it has not. There’s lots of evidence that the ACA has actually held down health spending increases, although other factors have pushed it up. But more to the point, do Republicans still not get that the expiration of these additional tax credits are going to hurt their voters more than it’s going to hurt Democratic voters? I see arched eyebrows.
Edney: It doesn’t seem like they get that yet, but I’m not in those strategy rooms, so a little tough to say what their line will be with this game of chicken. They basically are allowing firings of federal workers to continue to go forward in a way that they hope maybe will turn the tide and attention. It doesn’t seem to be working. So I don’t know if they’re having these conversations quite yet, but I know that the notices are starting to go out to some people in some states about these increases, and so it really might depend on what that backlash is from people who are going to see much higher costs for their health care.
Rovner: Yeah, apparently open enrollment began in Idaho on Wednesday. I didn’t realize that they started early, and so there’s just that one little state where people are actually able to see what these premium increases look like, assuming that they do not continue these extra subsidies. I’m wondering sort of about the Republican strategy of, We couldn’t get any traction with the illegal immigrants, so we’re just going to move to “The ACA is terrible.” Joanne.
Kenen: Well, I mean, we talked about this a couple of weeks ago. And Julie linked to the story, and I wrote about the politics of this. And one of the issues is [President Donald] Trump is a master of deflection. Are these people going to think it’s really Republican policy? Or are they going to think it’s greedy insurers, leftovers of the flaws of Obamacare itself, it’s Biden’s fault? And also concentration, I mean where the voters are in these states. Are there enough of them who actually are going to turn out to make a difference? They’re not going to flip Texas, right?
Are there enough of them in swing states or closer-margin states to make any difference? Are there enough in a single congressional district to make any difference? I mean part of it, I think they’re just sort of banking on that they won’t get the blame, that it’s really easy for us to get mad at our insurers. And I think that’s part of what they’re hoping, that they can just say: Blame them. Blame the structure of Obamacare. Because it’s not our fault. So, whether that works as a selling tactic remains to be seen. If they thought it was a huge political risk, they wouldn’t do it.
Rovner: True. Lauren.
Weber: I’ve been fascinated to see [Rep.] Marjorie Taylor-Green come out and say, Wow, these are some expensive premiums. And her in general, her seeming split from some parts of the Republican Party, is fascinating to watch for many reasons. But it’s just a lot of money that these people could be staring down. I mean, there was an analyst quoted in some coverage that was, like, people will have to decide between groceries and rent. I mean, if you are paying over a thousand dollars more a month, for some of these folks, I mean, that is a significant amount of cash. So, I do feel like people vote with their pocketbooks more than they vote with anything else. But to Joanne’s point, I mean, will they attribute the blame? I’m not sure.
Rovner: So, Politico was reporting on some possible options for a deal on those subsidies, which lawmakers are apparently talking about quietly behind closed doors, since actual negotiations are not yet happening. Two of those possibilities seem like real potential common ground. Minimum premiums — so, people who are now not paying any premiums, and the argument from some Republicans is that that’s pushing fraud, because some people, if they’re not paying premiums, don’t even know that they’re enrolled, and that the brokers are making money, which my colleague Julie Appleby has written about ad nauseum. So that seems like a possible place for compromise, to have a minimum $5-a-month premium so people would know that they have insurance. And maximum incomes for the subsidies. I know that people are floating, like, $200,000 a year or something like that.
Then there are two possibilities that at least strike me as less likely. One of them is grandfathering the subsidies, so only people who are getting them now could continue to get them, which would be problematic at a time when the economy seems to be shedding jobs, and changing the abortion language, which I don’t even want to start with. So, I’m seeing the first two as a real possibility. The second two, not so much. I’m wondering what you guys think.
Kenen: I mean, I’ve talked to some Republicans who claim that the current structure of the subsidies would enable families who are making $600,000, which all of us would agree is a fair amount of money. When I was told that, I went on a whole bunch of different calculators and pretended I was making $600,000. And could I actually get the subsidies? And I kept being laughed at by these calculators. I think there are probably some cases where this has happened. It’s a complicated formula where 8% of — we don’t have to get into the technicality. There may be—
Rovner: But it is a percent of your income. You only get a subsidy if it’s more than — yeah.
Kenen: And you’d have to have a premium that’s, like, an extraordinarily rich premium. I mean, it has to be in a really, really, really, really high number. Can this exist under current law? Several reputable Republicans have told me yes. Or conservatives — they’re not all necessarily Republicans. Conservative on this issue, at least — have said yes. I mean, if that’s the kind of thing that you want, to set an income cap, that was probably what was intended. I would take that out of the nonstarter and into the starter pile. I don’t think that’s enough, but I think that’s a reasonable discussion for both sides to have. I don’t think the intention was to subsidize people who were really not lower-middle, middle class.
Rovner: The people who got the big tax cuts.
Kenen: Right. They’re getting other tax cuts. I thought that was an interesting piece with some interesting options, but I’m also hearing escalating rhetoric, back to 2014 kind of rhetoric, back to repeal kind of rhetoric, that everything that you hate about the health care system is the fault of Obamacare, nothing in Obamacare works. We’ve got a really — they’re not saying “repeal,” but they’re saying reform it, and I’m hearing more and more of that. It’s just in the air now. So, and Jon Cohn had a really good piece in The Bulwark about some of the background of this. I think it could mean that this becomes a more intense tug-of-war that does not bode well for a quick resolution of the shutdown.
I don’t think we necessarily get into a yearlong repeal fight, even if you call it reform. But I think that these demands and this rhetoric about, Well, high-risk pools worked. Well, no, they didn’t. That, This is why your insurance costs have gone up. No, there’s a whole bunch of incentives and structures and bad stuff in our health care system. It is, Obamacare fixed certain problems. Those of us, we all have employer insurance, I believe, and all of us face cost increases and frustrations and hitting our head against brick walls and delays. And things are not perfect by any means, but it’s not because of these subsidies in Obamacare.
Rovner: And it’s not because of Obamacare. [Barack] Obama himself this week was on a podcast and said it was intended as a start, not as the be-all, end-all. I was surprised. I mean, I think one of the reasons that Republicans, I mean, this is now in their talking points about, We’re going to go after Obamacare. And [Rep.] Mike Johnson, the speaker, had kind of a rant on Monday, I mean, which sort of opened this up. And I think some of the Republicans were also talking about it on the Sunday shows. But I can’t imagine that Republicans don’t remember that the last time they had this big fight against Obamacare, Obamacare won. That was in 2017, and if anything, it’s even more popular now because there’s twice as many people on it, which was kind of the way I set up my first question.
Kenen: Right. But the dynamic of a year’s worth of repeal votes while other things are actually functioning in government versus a fight about this when Trump holds a lot of the cards in a shutdown — it’s comparable but not the same.
Rovner: Anna?
Edney: Well, and I also have to wonder if an actual extended replace, or reform, whatever we’re going to call it, fight is what they want, or if this is a strategy to help blame the increases in premiums that are coming on Obamacare in general directed towards the Democrats, right?. I mean, you can see how that line could be drawn. And so if they just keep bashing Obamacare, it’s Obamacare’s fault that Obamacare’s premiums got higher, not because they didn’t vote on extending the subsidies.
Kenen: And we’re also talking about Obamacare again. We had been talking about the Affordable Care Act. It had gone from Obamacare, which is politically toxic, to Affordable Care Act, which was sort of a subtle acknowledgment that it had bipartisan popularity among people getting benefits. And now we’re back to Obamacare, which sort of tells me, yes, we’re back into some of this endless loop of political fights about Obamacare.
Rovner: Yeah.
Kenen: And trying to get the Guinness Book of World Records for repeal votes on a single piece of legislation.
Rovner: Well, meanwhile — and I said this last week and I think the week before — that even if there is a deal on the tax credits, the bigger problem for Democrats right now is that if they make a deal on spending levels for fiscal 2026, which is what this fight is actually over, the administration can simply undo it, and Congress can ratify that undoing with a simple majority of just Republican votes. This week, even Republican [Sen.] Lisa Murkowski wondered aloud why Democrats would do a deal like that. So, I’m still wondering how they get out of that box, even if they were to get some kind of a compromise on the ACA subsidies. I certainly don’t know how Democrats get out of that box. I think the Republicans don’t know how they get out of that box.
Kenen: They don’t realize they’re both in the box. That’s one of the problems. This is a large box.
Rovner: It’s Schrödinger’s shutdown. We will have to see how that plays itself out. In the meantime, I’m not holding my breath. Well, moving on, despite laws against it, as Anna already mentioned, the Trump administration began firing federal workers last week, and the cuts hit particularly hard at the Department of Health and Human Services and agencies like the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration. The cuts appeared both sweeping and devastating, at least at first, including the entire staff of the CDC’s news journal and lead public health source of information, the Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report. Though by the end of the weekend, many of the firings had been rescinded. It’s not clear whether that really was a coding mistake, as was the official explanation, or an effort to continue to put federal workers, quote, air quotes here, “in trauma” as OMB [Office of Management and Budget] Director Russell Vought famously promised before he took office for the second time. Whichever, it’s not really the way to get the best work out of your workforce, right? Telling you: You’re fired. No, you’re not. Maybe you are? Go ahead, Lauren.
Weber: I would like to go back to the story I wrote in April when a bunch of fired health workers were told to contact an employee who had died. I don’t think, based on the coding error or some of these past things, it does not seem like these layoffs are being done in any sort of organized way. It doesn’t seem like they have up-to-date records. It seems like, also, are these layoffs even legal, based on some of the litigation that’s been filed? I think there’s going to be a lot that has to shake out there. But, I mean, to be quite honest, it is very striking to see a bunch of CDC employees continue to get laid off after, again, this is an agency that got shot at with hundreds of bullets. Police officer—
Rovner: Yeah, literally shot at.
Weber: Literally shot at with hundreds of bullets, and a police officer died responding to that, due to a shooter who had been radicalized in part, it seems, from his father’s account, by information that was wrong about the covid vaccine. So, to see more of those employees get laid off, I mean, you just have to wonder who’s going to want to work at these places. Morale is just completely, as we understand it, terrible. But yeah, I also question if that was a coding error or what exactly was happening there, because there were a lot of priorities of folks that were seemingly let go that are allegedly Make America Healthy Again priorities, but that’s also been true for many months of policymaking, so—
Rovner: Yeah, there’s a lot of right hand not seemingly knowing what left hand is doing in all of this, which may be the goal. I mean, I think you put your finger on it. It’s like, who would want to work at these places after what’s being done? And I think that’s the whole idea of the Russell Vought strategy of, Let’s shrink the federal government to a point where it’s so small that you can just sort of put it in a box and put it under the bed. That’s essentially where we are. Well, Lauren, as you mentioned, Wednesday afternoon, a federal district court judge ordered the administration to pause the firings. But will they actually obey that? And do we even know what offices have been most affected at this point?
I mean, we heard a lot of things like the entire Office of Population Affairs at HHS, which runs Title X, has apparently been reduced to one person. The people who do a lot of the statistics and survey work at CDC. All these people sort of appear to have been laid off, but we’re not quite sure, and we’re not quite sure what’s going to happen from here.
Kenen: I’m not sure if they know they’ve been laid off and rehired, because if you were laid off, you lost your access to your work email, and then if you get an email in your work email saying, Oops, you’re hired. I mean, I guess people sort of may just see if they have access again, but I’m not really sure how the actual notification of this somewhat chaotic layoff, no-layoff thing is.
Rovner: It has been chaotic. I think that’s a good word to describe all of this. Well, one reason it was relatively easy for the administration to go after the CDC is that it doesn’t have a leader — or even a nominated leader — at the moment, after the firing of Susan Monarez in August, less than a month after her Senate confirmation vote. Another high HHS position that remains vacant is that of surgeon general, although that office at least has a nominee, Casey Means. She’s the sister of RFK [Robert F. Kennedy] Jr. top aide and MAHA associate Calley Means and more than a little bit controversial. Lauren, you did a deep dive this week into the prospective surgeon general. What’d you find?
Weber: Yeah, my colleague Rachel Roubein and I did a deep dive into her background. And she’s, look, she’s a fascinating example, really, of MAHA today. And you could argue she really wrote the manifesto to MAHA with her book “Good Energy” that she authored with her brother, Calley Means. But basically she’s a very accomplished person in the sense that she went to Stanford undergrad; she graduated from Stanford med school; she had a very prestigious residency in ear, nose, and throat surgery; and then she resigned. She left and decided she wanted to take a different path and has become a bestselling author, a health products entrepreneur, and has also worked, as her financial disclosures have revealed, to promote a variety of products in some of her work. Financial disclosures revealed that she had received over half a million dollars over basically the last year and a half promoting a variety of different supplements, teas, elixirs, diagnostic products, and so on.
And several of the medical and scientific experts I spoke to said that they worried that she spoke in too absolute of terms about health, and they were really concerned that as someone who would be the surgeon general that she would use that bully pulpit and speak in terms not necessarily grounded in evidence. They pointed to some of her remarks about how cancer and Alzheimer’s and fertility was within one’s power to prevent and reverse, and they felt like that language went a step too far. And looking at her history, they are concerned about what that could mean for the health of the nation if she is directing it.
Rovner: She doesn’t even have a confirmation hearing scheduled yet, does she? Well, the Senate’s in so they could.
Weber: She is pregnant, so I think that is playing into the timing of some of her stuff. But yes, she does not have it scheduled. Her forms seemingly were pretty delayed. And then obviously there’s other things going on. I mean, I think the CDC firing also sucked a lot of health air out of the room of what people want to deal with and spend their political capital on, I suspect. But yes, we shall see.
Kenen: Yeah, she has to go before the [Senate] HELP [Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions] Committee, which is, Sen. [Bill] Cassidy is the chair. He is not a happy camper at the moment, from his public statements, and we do not know what the private conversations he is having at this point in time.
Rovner: And of course, that committee will also have to pass on the new CDC nominee when there is one.
Kenen: Yes. And the last CDC hearing, which all of us watched, I think he’s clearly concerned and displeased by lots of things going on at the federal health agencies. So, none of us are in those rooms, but they’re probably interesting conversations.
Rovner: As I like to say, we will watch that space. Well, turning to reproductive health, The New York Times has a story this week about something that we’ve talked about before on the podcast, arguments by anti-abortion activists that abortion pill residue in wastewater might be contaminating the nation’s waterways. Notwithstanding that there is no evidence of that, the Environmental Protection [Agency], acting on a request from anti-abortion lawmakers in Congress, ordered scientists to see if they could develop methods to detect the drug in wastewater. Now, the groups that originally pushed this say they were concerned about pollution. But if such a detection method is successfully developed, abortion rights supporters worry that it could be used to trace users in particular buildings in order to enforce abortion bans. This is basically another step in this sort of, Let’s try and shut down abortion nationwide. Is it not? And Anna I see you nodding.
Edney: Well, I mean that was my feeling when I read this really good piece that you’re talking about. And it’s a little bit lower down in the piece when they do start talking about using this to target maybe buildings or places where someone might have used an abortion drug. And I kind of was like, Yes, this is what I assumed they were trying to do, as I read this. And the reason for that is not just because I feel like there’s always a vindictive motive or something, but it’s because there are lots of drugs that are in our wastewater, and people are taking far larger amounts daily of many more things that is all going into our wastewater. So, particularly, why you would want to track that one, which is not used by millions of people for a chronic condition on a daily basis, it seems like there would be an ulterior motive.
Rovner: And has not been shown to do any harm, even if it is showing up in trace amounts in the wastewater. Although presumably that’s what the EPA scientists were also tasked with trying to figure out.
Kenen: I mean, it’s really hard to get rid of a drug you no longer take. I mean, pharmacies don’t want to take it back. In my neighborhood, there is a pharmacy at a supermarket that does have a take-back, which is great, but it’s always broken. If you have any drug that you want to get rid of responsibly and not have it end up — Anna’s right, I mean, there’s just a lot of stuff in our water. It’s really hard to do. And this is not the only drug that is an issue with.
Rovner: Although if you Google it, there are a lot of places where you can actually take back drugs.
Kenen: It’s hard. It’s limited hours, limited access, and the machines are often—
Rovner: Yeah. Yeah.
Kenen: I’ve been trying for a couple of them for a few months, actually.
Rovner: You do have to actually take some steps actively to do it. Well, turning to drugs, and drug prices, there was so much other news, you might’ve missed this, but President Trump last Friday afternoon announced a deal with a second drug company to bring back manufacturing, in order to avoid tariffs. This deals with AstraZeneca, which promised to build a plant in Virginia. But Anna, is there any promise to actually bring down prices for consumers in any of this?
Edney: Minimally, possibly. It’s a lot like the Pfizer deal, and we saw that focus largely on Medicaid, that already has extremely steep discounts that are required by law. And so how much they’d actually be slashing to offer the “most favored nations” pricing that Trump wants to the Medicaid program, it seems like that probably isn’t a huge leap, and certainly we saw that Wall Street didn’t react with any hair on fire. They’re not worried about the bottom lines of these companies when these deals come out, and they’re avoiding tariffs for three years. So, kind of net positive, seemingly. We don’t have all the details of the deal—
Rovner: Like with the Pfizer deal where we never got all the details.
Edney: Yeah, exactly. So, there’s some stuff that we still don’t know, but Medicaid is the main focus. Then they’ll offer, again, some of their drugs on TrumpRx. So, maybe if your insurance doesn’t cover something, or if you don’t have insurance, and you want to get a drug, that might be helpful. But most people I think are going to opt to pay their lower copay than the cost of a drug that is discounted but still full price.
Rovner: Well, in case you’re looking for a reason why it might be a good thing to reshore some drug manufacturing, the World Health Organization this week warned of potentially poisonous cough syrup made in India. According to one of your Bloomberg colleagues, Anna, 22 children have died in the central Indian state of Madhya Pradesh — I hope I’m pronouncing that close to right. And this is far from the first time poisonous substances have been found in medications made in India, right? You’ve done a lot of reporting on this.
Edney: Yeah, for sure, and these are really tragic stories that now seem to keep, particularly with these kind of cough medicines, keep popping up. And thankfully the FDA did put out a message saying these cough medicines in this round were not sold in the U.S., but there have been times where India has imported some of these. There were children in the Gambia that died last time — this was a few years ago. Because what’s happening is some of the drugmakers in India are supposed to be purchasing a solvent. It’s propylene glycol. Well, that solvent, that helps the medicine kind of all mix together. It can be a lot cheaper if you buy something that looks like it but is actually deadly, diethylene glycol. And so that’s what some of these companies are doing, is saving money and substituting a deadly ingredient. And so we see that this is a problem a lot of times with some of the drugmakers, and it’s happened, unfortunately, particularly in India, where the cost-cutting, the corner-cutting has actually affected people’s lives, and in this case, tragically, children.
Rovner: Yeah. There is reason to kind of want to keep drug manufacturing where the FDA can keep an eye on it, which I know you will continue to report on.
Edney: For sure.
Rovner: Because that has been your specialty, I know, of late.
Edney: Yes.
Rovner: All right, that is this week’s news. Now we will play my Medicare open enrollment interview with Louise Norris, and then we’ll come back with our extra credits.
I am so pleased to welcome to the podcast Louise Norris. She’s a health policy analyst at Medicareresources.org and at Healthinsurance.org and the author of some of the most helpful guides to health insurance out there — and the person who keeps track of all the changes for health reporters like me. Louise, so happy to welcome you to “What the Health?”
Louise Norris: Thank you so much, Julie. It’s a pleasure to be here.
Rovner: So, we’ve talked a lot these past few months about how the Affordable Care Act and its potentially skyrocketing premiums for 2026 is about to happen, but we haven’t talked as much about some of the changes to Medicare, for which open enrollment began this week. Now, most years it’s probably OK for Medicare recipients just to let whatever coverage they have kind of roll over. But that’s not the case this year, right?
Norris: Well, I feel like it’s never the best idea to just let your coverage roll over, because there’s always plan-specific changes that people just really need to pay attention to. And even though averages might be fairly steady in terms of premiums and benefits, that doesn’t mean your plan will have a steady premium or benefits. And for 2026, we’re seeing in the Medicare Advantage and Part D —stand-alone Part D — drug plans, there are fewer plans available on average and actually a slight average decrease in premiums. But I feel like if people see that as the headline, they might be sort of lulled into complacency, of like, Oh, I just don’t need to look, when in reality there’s quite a bit of variation from one plan to another. So, although the average stand-alone Part D plan premium is actually decreasing slightly, some plans are increasing their premiums by as much as $50 a month. So, you need to really pay attention to the notice you got from your plan about what’s happening for 2026 and then comparison-shop. Comparison-shop is always in your best interest every year.
Rovner: Right, because, I mean, people don’t realize that maybe your doctor’s been dropped from your Medicare Advantage plan or your drug has been dropped from your Part D plan. So, I mean, even if your premium doesn’t change that much, your coverage might be changing a lot, right?
Norris: Exactly. And you don’t want to find that out when you go to the pharmacy in January to fill your prescription and then you’re locked into your Part D plan for all of 2026. It’s definitely better to know all those details at this right now during open enrollment.
Rovner: Now there are some coverage changes that people are starting to feel from really a couple of years ago, yes?
Norris: There are. So, there’s some basic changes like, for example, the maximum out-of-pocket cost on Part D plans, which just went into effect in 2025 under the Inflation Reduction Act, it was a $2,000 cap on out-of-pocket costs for Part D. That is indexed for inflation. So for 2026 it goes up to $2,100. So not a huge change but definitely a change people should know about. And you do still have the option to work with your plan to spread that out in equal payments across all 12 months of the year instead of having to meet it right at the beginning of the year, if you take an expensive medication. There’s this change in the maximum Part D deductible, just like there is every year. This year it’s, for 2025, it’s $590 is the maximum deductible. It’ll be $615 next year. That doesn’t mean your plan will have a $615 deductible, but it might.
But there are also plan-specific changes that vary from one plan to another. So, for example, your Medicare Advantage plan might be adding or subtracting supplemental benefits. They might be changing the amount of your deductible or changing the amount of your inpatient hospital copay. There’s all sorts of changes that aren’t necessarily broadly applicable but that apply to your plan. And then, like you were saying, whether or not your doctor and hospital are still in the network, whether your prescription drug is still covered and covered at the same level, plans can move prescription drugs from one tier to another. So, those are all the sorts of things you really need to pay attention to now so that you can comparison-shop and see if something else might be a better option.
Rovner: And we are seeing plans starting to sort of drop out. I mean, I know at one point there was concern that there were too many plans for people to choose from, that it was, just, it was too confusing. But now are we running the risk of having too few plans in some places?
Norris: Well, I think the concern about too many plans is definitely valid. For a while, there were — it could definitely be overwhelming for people shopping for coverage. For both Medicare Advantage and Part D, we do have, overall, an average of a reduction in how many plans are available for next year. There are a few states where the average beneficiary will actually see more options for Medicare Advantage, but that’s rare. But the average beneficiary will have access to more Medicare Advantage plans than they did before 2022, for example. It’s just been in the last few years that it has decreased, but it still hasn’t decreased below the level that it was in 2022. So it’s still a lot. I believe it’s an average of 32 plans. And then in the Part D, for people who buy stand-alone Part D coverage, everybody has between eight and 12 plans to pick from.
So, if your plan is ending, you obviously need to shop for new coverage. If you’re on a Medicare Advantage plan and you don’t shop for new coverage, you’ll just be automatically moved to original Medicare on Jan. 1. If you’re on a Medicare Advantage plan that’s ending, because your carrier is exiting the market or pulling out of your area and your plan can’t be renewed, you can pick any other Medicare Advantage plan that’s available in your area. But you also can do, you can switch to original Medicare, and you’ll have guaranteed issue access to Medigap, which is not normally the case. During this open enrollment period, people have guaranteed issue access to Medicare Advantage and Part D but not Medigap. So, for other folks whose Medicare Advantage plan is continuing, obviously they have the option to switch to original Medicare. But depending on how long they’ve been on their Advantage plan and what state they’re in, they do not have guaranteed issue access to Medigap. So, that is an important thing for folks to know if their plan is actually ending, is that they can make that choice if they want to.
Rovner: We’ve seen a lot of increases in health care costs overall, and I guess that’s true for Medicare, too. I mean, why should people who aren’t on Medicare care about what happens to Medicare and what happens to the Medicare market?
Norris: First of all, hopefully all of us will eventually be on Medicare. Almost everyone by the time they’re 65 is on Medicare. But even if you’re a long ways away from that, it is important to know how much the whole Medicare sphere, in terms of the insurance companies and the regulations, how that sort of trickles down to the rest of the commercial insurance sector. Drug price negotiation, for example, that will have a trickle-down effect into what the insurance companies in the rest of the commercial market pay for drugs. When regulations come out for Medicare, they oftentimes, the insurance companies follow suit in the private market, or states will follow suit in terms of how they regulate the private market. So, it certainly does matter for everyone, even if it’s not a direct effect.
Rovner: So even if you’re not 65 or helping somebody who’s over 65.
Norris: Exactly, yes, and that’s the other thing is a lot of folks who are younger are helping a parent or a grandparent navigate this, and so it really does affect most people.
Rovner: Yeah, it is one of the autumn tasks for many people.
Norris: Absolutely.
Rovner: Helping Mom and Dad or Grandma and Grandpa navigate their Medicare coverage for the following year.
Norris: And I do think, like you were saying earlier, as far as just letting it ride, obviously if you comparison-shop and you’re happy with your coverage and you’ve determined that it is still the best option, then, yes, you do not need to do anything. You just, assuming it’s still available for renewal, you just let it renew. But oftentimes I think people don’t comparison-shop, simply because the process seems overwhelming and they just figure, I’ll just keep what I have. And of course, if you’re in that situation, you might be one of the people who’s on a Part D plan that’s increasing by $50 a month next year, or you might find out in January that your doctor’s no longer in-network with your Advantage plan.
So if you get those notices from your plan and something doesn’t make sense or you’re confused, it’s much better to reach out to someone who can help you, whether it’s a family member or friend, asking them for help, or call 1-800-MEDICARE. Call the Medicare SHIP in your state. Every state has a State Health Insurance Assistance Program that’s staffed with people who can answer your questions. Contact a Medicare broker in your area. Just asking questions and finding out the answers is a much better approach than just assuming things will work out if you just let your plan renew.
Rovner: I’ll put a link to your site also.
Norris: Yeah, Medicareresources.org. We do have an open enrollment guide where we list all of the changes that are happening for 2026, the broad changes, and we’ll continue to update that. For example, we don’t yet have the Medicare Part B premiums for 2026, so as those numbers come out, we’ll update that guide with everything people need to know.
Rovner: Louise Norris, thank you so much.
Norris: Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me, Julie.
Rovner: OK, we’re back. It’s time for our extra-credit segment. That’s where we each recognize the story we read this week we think you should read, too. Don’t worry if you miss it. We will put the links in our show notes on your phone or other mobile device. Joanne, why don’t you go first this week?
Kenen: The piece I have this week is from Mother Jones, and it’s about Florida Surgeon General Dr. Joseph Ladapo. And the headline is “From Medicine to Mysticism: The Radicalization of Florida’s Top Doc,” by Kiera Butler and Julianne McShane. It’s a phenomenal read. He has stellar credentials — Harvard, Stanford. He was an academic medicine MPH [master of public health]. He’s public health and medicine. He had this stellar traditional career. He was widely respected. And now he is this leading voice. He’s trying to get rid of the vaccine mandates, childhood vaccine mandates, to the whole state of Florida. He has questioned all sorts of established public health practices. He is out there. And we’ve sort of all wondered: How do people get to this point?
And this story talks about his wife and her mysticism, and their guru healer, who walks on their thighs to the point that it’s painful. And they emerge from this foot-walking thigh-walking thing, and his mystical experiences with this whole different take on the human experience and the role of health. I cannot begin to capture it. And here it is. It is a long, detailed, and fascinating read on his wife, who he met on an airplane, and her beliefs in, we bring certain things on ourselves because of who we are and who are the ancestors that we carry. She sees auras and visions, and this is their current belief system. And it is not compatible with what most of us think of as science-based public health. Really good read. Really, really good read.
Rovner: Definitely MAHA to the max. Anna.
Edney: Mine was a guest essay in The New York Times, “The Drug That Took Away More Than Her Appetite,” [by Maia Szalavitz]. And I thought it was a really great look at how some of these obesity medications, the GLP-1s like Ozempic and others, can be used to treat addiction. And so it follows this woman who was addicted to different kinds of drugs at different times. And she lost her children and all sorts of horrible things and had tried over and over again to stop using, and then has been in this program that uses a version of these GLP-1s at a lower level — they don’t necessarily want you also losing weight — but to treat addiction, and just how it’s kind of been the only thing that’s worked for her. It stops the cravings, kind of as you think it might do for people with obesity as well.
I thought we don’t see this as much, and the companies that make these drugs aren’t extremely focused on this. So I thought the article did a good job of saying why this could be really important, and looking at the fact that right now it requires federal funding of research to keep the promise alive, and hope that at some point some pharmaceutical company will be more willing to pick it up.
Rovner: Right now, there’s a lot more money to be made in the obesity side of this. But yeah, it’s a really interesting story. Lauren.
Weber: I actually highlighted work from Rachana Pradhan and Samantha Liss from KFF Health News. The article’s titled “Senators Press Deloitte, Other Contractors on Errors in Medicaid Eligibility Systems.” It’s impact from their great reporting, which I think we talked about on this podcast earlier in the year, about how — talk about waste, fraud, and abuse — that there’s some questionable issues with how Deloitte manages Medicaid systems and how money’s being wasted through them. And the senators, it looks like, read KFF Health News’ reporting and have sent some letters about it. So, great work by the team over there, and eye-opening for sure to see, on some of the dollars, Medicaid, that are not going to patients.
Rovner: Journalism impact. My extra credit this week is a really thoughtful story from our fellow podcast panelist Alice Miranda Olstein at Politico. It’s called “RFK Jr.’s Got Advice for Pregnant Women. There’s Limited Data to Support It.” It’s about a topic that I have been covering for more than three decades — the difficulties of including women, particularly women of childbearing age, in clinical trials of drugs. As Alice outlined so well, the problem isn’t just ethical — an unborn fetus obviously can’t give informed consent to be part of an experiment — but it’s also a question of liability. Drugmakers are afraid of getting sued for bad pregnancy outcomes, and with good reason. That’s why it’s so hard to know what is and isn’t safe to take during pregnancy and what might cause birth defects or miscarriages. And despite the secretary’s promise to, quote, “do the science,” it is not that easy. It’s a really, really good read.
OK, that is this week’s show. Thanks this week to our editor, Emmarie Huetteman, and our producer-engineer, Francis Ying. If you enjoy the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left us a review. That helps other people find us, too. Also, as always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org. Or you can find me still on X, @jrovner, or on Bluesky, @julierovner. Where are you folks these days? Joanne?
Kenen: I’m either on Bluesky, @joannekenen, or on LinkedIn.
Rovner: Anna?
Edney: Bluesky or X, @annaedney.
Rovner: Lauren.
Weber: I’m on X or Bluesky, @LaurenWeberHP.
Rovner: We will be back in your feed next week. Until then, be healthy.
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KFF Health News' 'What the Health?': Public Health Further Politicized Under the Threat of More Firings
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Julie Rovner
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Julie Rovner is chief Washington correspondent and host of KFF Health News’ weekly health policy news podcast, “What the Health?” A noted expert on health policy issues, Julie is the author of the critically praised reference book “Health Care Politics and Policy A to Z,” now in its third edition.
In a highly unusual White House news conference this week, President Donald Trump — without evidence — boldly blamed the painkiller Tylenol and a string of childhood vaccines for causing a recent rise in autism. That came just days after the newly reconstituted Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices, now populated with vaccine skeptics and opponents, voted to change long-standing recommendations.
Podcast host Julie Rovner interviews Demetre Daskalakis, who until last month was the head of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases, about the reaction to these unprecedented actions.
Meanwhile, as the government approaches a likely shutdown, with Congress at a standoff over funding for the new fiscal year that starts Oct. 1, the Trump administration is ordering federal agencies not to just furlough workers but to fire them if their jobs do not align with the president’s priorities.
This week’s panelists are Julie Rovner of KFF Health News, Anna Edney of Bloomberg News, and Sandhya Raman of CQ Roll Call.
Panelists
Anna Edney
Bloomberg News
Sandhya Raman
CQ Roll Call
Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:
- The federal Office of Management and Budget on Wednesday night sent a memo to government agencies asking for contingency plans in the event of a government shutdown starting Oct. 1. Such a memo isn’t unusual when it comes to pre-shutdown planning. This time around, it took an unprecedented turn in informing agency personnel that they should prepare for mass firings of employees whose programs lack alternative funding sources or who are working on a program whose mission doesn’t directly align with Trump’s priorities. Though federal RIFs, or reductions in force, and government shutdowns have each happened before, the combined RIF/shutdown threat is a first.
- It seems we are headed for a shutdown. Before adjourning until after the fiscal year ends Sept. 30, the House approved a stopgap funding measure. But, because House members do not plan to return to Washington until Oct. 6, that leaves the Senate in a jam. If senators change anything in the bill, it would require another House vote, which, because of the House schedule, might not happen before the month ends.
- There’s also interparty strife. Republicans say they want a clean bill to provide short-term funding, while Democrats have other ideas. Their prevailing attitude is that they went along with this approach in March and got burned. This week, Trump also canceled a meeting with Democratic leaders. The bottom line is that both sides are jockeying for a position that would allow them to cast shutdown blame across the aisle. Some call it a game of three-dimensional chess, while others call it a game of chicken. Either way, there will be consequences.
- Confusion and chaos have emerged as buzzwords to describe two recent events: last week’s meeting of the CDC’s Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices and this week’s White House press conference about autism. Both were marked by mixed messages. At the White House event, for instance, Trump warned pregnant women not to take Tylenol. But the FDA information that shortly followed downplayed the Tylenol risk.
- The Trump administration’s new $100,000 fee for H-1B visas could have an impact on health care. Such visas are often used by graduating medical students and other health professionals who come to the U.S. for training, then stay to practice. That $100,000 fee is steep and generated an almost immediate backlash from hospitals and health systems, especially those in rural areas — a reaction that caught administration officials off guard. Administration officials have suggested that health professionals would qualify for an exemption from this fee. What is not yet clear is what hoops the sponsoring hospitals would have to jump through to qualify for it.
- Trump has given 17 drug companies a Sept. 29 deadline by which they will have to commit to adopting his “most favored nation” pricing policy. It’s intended to increase the cost drugmakers charge in other countries while lowering prices in the U.S. Talks between the administration and the drugmakers are ongoing. So far, indications are that Trump might end up with half a loaf. Some large drugmakers have announced they will raise the prices of specific medications in other countries but have not agreed to reduce prices in the U.S.
Plus, for “extra credit,” the panelists suggest health policy stories they read this week that they think you should read, too:
Julie Rovner: NBC News’ “RFK Jr. Has the Federal Vaccine Court in His Sights. Attacking It Could Threaten Vaccine Production in the U.S.,” by Liz Szabo.
Anna Edney: The Washington Post’s “Do State Abortion Laws Affect Women’s Recruiting? That’s Up to Athletes,” by Kevin B. Blackistone.
Sandhya Raman: ProPublica’s “Psychiatric Hospitals Turn Away Patients Who Need Urgent Care. The Facilities Face Few Consequences,” by Eli Cahan.
Also mentioned in this week’s podcast:
- Axios’ “Drugmakers Meet Trump Only Halfway on Pricing Plan,” by Peter Sullivan.
- Bloomberg Law’s “White House Says Doctors May Win Reprieve From H-1B Visa Fee,” by Rachel Cohrs Zhang, John Tozzi, and Jessica Nix.
Click to open the transcript
Transcript: Public Health Further Politicized Under the Threat of More Firings
[Editor’s note: This transcript was generated using both transcription software and a human’s light touch. It has been edited for style and clarity.]
Julie Rovner: Hello, and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Julie Rovner, chief Washington correspondent for KFF Health News, and I’m joined by some of the best and smartest health reporters in Washington. We’re taping this week on Thursday, Sept. 25, at 10 a.m. As always, news happens fast, and things might’ve changed by the time you hear this, so here we go.
Today, we are joined via videoconference by Sandhya Raman of CQ Roll Call.
Sandhya Raman: Good morning.
Rovner: And Anna Edney of Bloomberg News.
Anna Edney: Hey, everybody.
Rovner: So we’re going to do something a little different today. I got a chance to speak on Wednesday with Dr. Demetre Daskalakis, the former head of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases. I asked him to respond to the White House announcement on autism and last week’s rather muddled meeting of the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices. So we’ll play that interview first, and then we’ll come back for our panel discussion. Here’s the interview.
I am so pleased to welcome Dr. Demetre Daskalakis to the podcast. Until last month, Dr. Daskalakis was the head of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases in Atlanta. He quit, along with three other senior career CDC officials, after Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. fired their boss, Susan Monarez, for refusing to approve in advance changes to the childhood vaccine schedule. Dr. Daskalakis, thank you so much for joining us.
Demetre Daskalakis: Thank you so much for having me.
Rovner: So, for those who haven’t been plugged into the public health doings over the past month, remind us what exactly your job was at CDC and why you felt you needed to resign following the dismissal of Dr. Monarez.
Daskalakis: So CDC is made up of centers, and so I ran one of the centers, called the National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases. CDC’s not known for its pithy titles. So what that is is the center that is responsible for a lot of what you think about when you think about vaccines and vaccine-preventable diseases. That includes the resources that go out to local jurisdictions.
Rovner: And when Dr. Monarez was fired, what did that signal to you?
Daskalakis: Yeah. I think the last eight months had been hard. I think that we had other things that happened before Dr. Monarez’s resignation. I think we saw the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices be zombified into something that was not science, we saw recommendations around covid vaccine come out on Twitter rather than through any scientific process. So those were the things that were on the way. But as ACIP was made zombified — and what I mean by that was CDC has nothing to do with it, these folks who have been installed, who are frankly anti-vaxxers for the most part, they’re the ones that are driving the agenda, the membership, all of it — so it wasn’t really doing anything of scientific consequence anymore.
But when Dr. Monarez was there, we had a scientific leader whose job it was to really be a diplomat to Secretary Kennedy and Health and Human Services, but also to really make sure that the science is what leads the policy. And so, when I saw that organization, the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices, become some strange ideology machine, and then also saw that I wouldn’t have a scientific leader at CDC who would be able to defend the science, the game was over for me, because I couldn’t see any way that we would be leading with science. Instead, I could only see ideology. I read RFK’s books, and I know what’s coming, which is the dismantling of vaccines for the United States.
Rovner: So can you talk a little bit about how the career scientists and doctors at the CDC normally interact with the political appointees at the agency and the political folks at the top of HHS, and how that was so different in this administration?
Daskalakis: Yeah. I worked with — now that would be — four CDC directors and two secretaries of health. And so, the way that we normally interacted as career scientists was that we would produce materials; if there were questions, we would create memos and other materials to be able to present to our politicals around those issues. We would be responsive to any issues that they wanted to talk about. So for instance, if somebody said, “I want to talk about the birth dose of hepatitis B vaccine,” we would create briefing materials and opportunities for the politicals, both at HHS and CDC, to be able to have time with career scientists to really learn about the story. And that’s not what’s happened in this newest regime.
Now, let me be clear, Dr. Monarez did ask for briefings, and she did get them, so that is not the person I’m talking about. Above that, the secretary had never been briefed by anyone from the National Center of Immunization and Respiratory Diseases while I was there, so he never heard about measles, never heard about bird flu, didn’t hear about covid, though he made decisions about covid, didn’t hear about any of the things that we normally brief about. Didn’t hear anything about seasonal flu, RSV, and covid. We had been briefing folks on a monthly basis, because this was the epidemic that we have every year. So to say that there’s a glitch in the matrix is an understatement. This is an extremely atypical environment, where the head of people’s health for America doesn’t talk to people who know the science.
Rovner: So I want to ask you about the ACIP meeting, but since then, we’ve had the White House announcement on the causes of autism and a potential new treatment for it. Can you give us your take on that entire event, both the press conference announcing it and the documentation, such as it was, that was provided afterwards? I have to say, I watched all of the covid press conferences with President [Donald] Trump in 2020, and this made even my eyes cross a little bit.
Daskalakis: So let’s rehash what happened with the acetaminophen and autism issue. So they took one study and elevated that study and did this Orwellian doublespeak around it, where they said that it showed that there was a link, quote, “link,” between acetaminophen and autism. The study didn’t show that; the study showed that there was an association, and so an association does not mean cause. And so, my example that I use is when you are meeting people who have lung cancer and you ask them if they have matches in their pocket, they very often do. It’s not the matches that cause the lung cancer, it’s the tobacco; it’s the smoking.
So very similarly, there’s an association with acetaminophen, that’s the matchbook. Autism is a spectrum and it’s not a disorder or a disability for some people, it’s just part of their normal neurocognitive story, but it’s like the equivalent in my analogy of lung cancer. And so, there’s something in between there that we don’t really see, and that could be genetics and other environmental exposures. So they put all of their eggs in one basket that should make nobody feel comfortable that they have the answer for autism because they found an association that people kind of already knew about and made an announcement, mainly because the secretary promised a September announcement. And so, science can’t be rushed, this was a rush job, and I don’t like my policy fast and loose, and that’s what you’re seeing, fast-and-loose policy.
They also talked about leucovorin, which is a drug that I think many people use or know about, usually used in cancer chemotherapies that involve some kind of antifolate, so it is a rescue. So if people are getting a medicine that makes their folate low, the folinic acid is kind of like super folate that really replaces the deficiency. And so, they made big statements about this being a potential treatment for autism, but then subsequently in the writing that they put out, they were very focused on a very specific circumstance of people who have some sort of cerebral folate deficiency.
So that’s the big picture. They announced a bunch of stuff, and it didn’t go through any process, we don’t know the quality of the data, the entirety of the data was not reviewed in any systematic way, and then announcements were made without any process of actually demonstrating what work was done to get there. We’ve all been in math class — the answer to an equation isn’t just 25, you have to show the work to get there, and so it’s like they just said, “The answer is 25.”
Rovner: And in this case, this could cause all kinds of actual consequences for people, particularly for pregnant women who have pain or fever.
Daskalakis: Which is associated with poor outcome for the pregnant woman, as well as for the fetus or the child after they’re born. So there’s that reality, that it’s not inconsequential, and then you have someone saying, “Avoid it, don’t do it, at all costs, don’t do it,” and then what the FDA puts out that says, “Should use judiciously.”
So I’m going to answer the second part of your question, what did I think of the press conference? I’m going to be honest, I don’t blame the president for anything that he said. I blame RFK Jr. and the other people on that stage. Their job is to make sure that their principal knows what they’re talking about, and so they have failed their job because what happened was we had a principal who was talking about things that were, I think, beyond his scope. And then also, we thought we were just talking acetaminophen, and then all of a sudden, in a non sequitur, we heard about the vaccine schedule for kids with some very strange places that we visited, including the notion that hepatitis B is a sexually transmitted infection, and rather than the birth dose that prevents vertical transmission, mother to child, as well as household transmission, we should wait until age 12, which will manifest itself as liver cancer, liver transplant, and cirrhosis for a lot of children, especially those who maybe are at higher risk because of their social circumstance.
So that’s what I thought. I was, like, poor guy, he’s being briefed by people who don’t know anything, and so maybe they should take care of him.
Rovner: All right. Well, I want to also ask you about your reaction to the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices’ meeting last week, where the committee voted to change recommendations for both the measles-mumps-rubella and chickenpox vaccines and the covid vaccine. At the end, it felt like everyone was confused, including the members of the committee. What stood out to you about that meeting?
Daskalakis: I felt like an oracle, because in my resignation letter, I told you this was going to happen, and it’s exactly what I thought. And so, what happened was they did no process and just did stuff. And so, let me just give you what normal is, because that’s really important, and then I’ll walk you through each one and tell you why they were abnormal.
So generally speaking, something happens, and there’s a question related to vaccine policy, there’s a new vaccine, there’s new data around safety, something happens. And that’s elevated either by ACIP members, CDC, or the working groups that live within the ACIP that do all the work on the side before the meeting. So that question comes to the work group, and the CDC folks work really hard and poll all the data in the world about the question. They in effect work to do what is, for lack of a better word, a meta-analysis, a study of studies, and they go through a process called GRADE, where they look at all the data and say, “This is good data, this is OK data, there’s bias,” really to contextualize all of the data. They then put that onto a clear table that tells you what’s happening. Now, they did that for a couple of things.
The next thing is that there are long discussions. They’re long because they’re complicated, and they go through something that’s called an Evidence to Recommendations Framework. Now, that’s jargony, but what it means is that there’s this process where they ask, “Is this an important public health question? What are the implications for equity? Do the risks and the benefits … what is the equation there? Is there more harm or more good? Is this something that is going to improve the health of people? And is this cost-effective?” There’s a lot of domains, but they go through it really methodically because they want to get all of the domains that are needed for decisions. Once they do that, they produce a recommendation. That is taken to ACIP and it’s discussed. And then they vote.
So what happened was that they didn’t do it, because RFK Jr., I know this from the inside, said, “I want on the agenda hepatitis B birth dose and MMRV.” What you saw there was politicization of the committee, ideology dominating, conspiracy theories being elevated to the level of data, and then decisions being made based on that. So if the data’s no good, if the foundation of the house is rotten, that house shouldn’t be standing, so that’s what we saw.
And I want to go back to that hepatitis B thing. So they may go and do something that’s more process. But one of the reasons that I left was that CDC is not allowed to dictate who is on the work group anymore. So if they stack the work group with people that are anti-vax people, who are naysayers, who are not basing conversations on data, but on the anecdote or unvetted studies, it won’t matter, because that process will also be rotten if there’s not a diversity of opinion and scientific expertise on the work group. So that’s what happened at ACIP.
Rovner: So following some pretty unusual public health actions just in the week since you’ve resigned, what’s your biggest concern about public health going forward?
Daskalakis: So I think that there’s a couple of things that happened that I didn’t talk about yet that are very concerning. I’ll tell you that the book that I picked up to start reading when I finished my time at CDC was [George] Orwell’s “1984,” and the reason that I picked it up was because really soon after I left, I have nothing to do with stopping it or starting it, but just saying temporally speaking, CDC changed their webpage, that was the “About CDC” webpage, into, in effect, what is a manifesto as opposed to a description of an agency that is supposed to be balanced and scientific. So it really, in effect, speaks about compliance to ideology as the principal motivator for what CDC is and will do. There were other things wrong with that document, but we don’t have the time to go into that one.
And so, I feel like — first chapter of “1984” that talks about ministries that are using doublespeak to be able to say what they do, I think we are now living it. And so that’s my fear, that everything that’s going to be coming out of CDC is going to be colored by ideology, or that data is going to be released from CDC without scientists able to explain it so that it can be used for other means or that will allow folks who are more ideologically motivated to be able to make conclusions based on inadequate analyses. So that’s what I’m worried about.
Rovner: So how do we proceed from here, both public health professionals and Americans who are just looking for health guidance?
Daskalakis: Yeah. I think we’re at a dark time, but I also think that there’s going to be light in the darkness, it just may not be today. So the first thing is trauma-informed care, your feelings are valid: This is not normal, something not good is going on, and it’s hard to figure out who to trust. And so, my recommendation to people is, and I know that this is a hard one because not everybody has access to care, is if you do have access to care, you really need to lean into your doctors — doctors, nurses, nurse practitioners, physician assistants, pharmacists — taken widely and broadly, health care professionals. So even if you don’t have a primary care doctor, you have a pharmacist, and so go to that pharmacist and talk to them. It’s not as good as having one word for the land, as had been standard for CDC, but in this environment, I think you need to go with people that you trust.
I’ll also say one of the things that should be a red flag for everybody out there is — I’m a doctor, I take care of patients — and I do actually believe that the relationship between a clinician, a health care provider, whoever they are, and their patient is very sacred. And so, whenever you hear anyone in the world trying to destabilize that relationship, saying that, “Doctors don’t know what they’re talking about, don’t listen to the pediatricians,” that is not someone you should be taking medical advice from, because they’re actually at their core trying to get you to not listen to the people who are your best allies and advocates in the health space.
Rovner: Dr. Demetre Daskalakis, thank you so much for joining us.
Daskalakis: My pleasure.
Rovner: OK. We are back with our panel, and I want to ask both of you about your reactions to the ACIP meeting and the autism announcement. But let’s turn first to the breaking news about the potential government shutdown that’s less than a week away. Last night, the Office of Management and Budget, which traditionally sets the rules for who stays on the job in a shutdown and who doesn’t, issued a memo of the sort I’ve never seen before. Rather than directing agencies to prioritize which activities are needed to preserve, quote, “life and property,” and thus who’s required to work without pay for the duration and who gets furloughed until funding is restored, this memo basically says if the activity doesn’t have another source of funding and it’s not within the administration’s priorities, agencies should prepare to fire not furlough workers. This is obviously a big ramping up of this shutdown. I know this just happened, but what kind of reaction are you guys seeing?
Raman: This to me just seems very, very highly unprecedented. We’ve had shutdowns, we’ve had near shutdowns, many of them in the past, and it has not escalated to this at any time that I’ve seen.
Rovner: Forty years, I’ve been doing this 40 years, I have never seen anything quite like this. We’ve had rifts and we have shutdowns, but we’ve never had them combined.
Raman: Yeah. And so, I think it’ll be really interesting how the next few days play out. The Senate is in for a couple of days before we would hit the shutdown, if there’s anything they can come together on. It is really difficult when you escalate to this level when they’ve been trying to negotiate so far. It’s hard. The House isn’t supposed to come back until Oct. 6.
Rovner: Oops.
Raman: So if the Senate changes anything or wants to change anything compared to what the House had passed, they’re stuck. Either the House has to come back in or they shut down until they come to a compromise on something. So I think from everyone that I’ve been talking with over the past few weeks, it seems like we’re really headed to a shutdown. It’s possible they get a few Democrats to fold and go with what’s there, but I think this last move, and then also President Trump saying that he was going to meet with Democrats earlier this week, and then saying, “No, I don’t want to,” they’ve been saying there’s not good-faith efforts to negotiate, so they’re in a pickle at this point.
Rovner: Let’s get real: This is about not whether we’re going to have a shutdown, but who gets blamed for the shutdown. Traditionally, it’s been the Democrats, and the Republicans keep saying this, who say, “Look, we’re just having a clean extension of funding, we’re just going to basically roll out the clock, kick the can down the road, so we can continue to negotiate over funding for next year. Why won’t Democrats go along with that?” And Democrats are responding, “Well, we went along with it in March, and look at what’s happened in the interim, and our base didn’t like that, so we think we should fight this time.” And then, you had the president agreeing to meet with Democratic leaders, but then the Republican leaders in Congress telling the president, “No, don’t meet with them.” It’s all strategy at this point. You’re nodding, Anna.
Edney: Yeah, yeah. I was just thinking, I think a lot of times, talking about this administration, people are saying, “There’s no plan.” But I do see the 3D game of chess at this point, and that letter very clearly mentioned if the Democrats shut down the government, that was lobbying that into the court of the Democrats saying, “This is your fault if it happens.” And I do think that the Democrats were burned last time in the sense that it seemed like they might allow a shutdown and then backtracked pretty quickly and the base just didn’t like it, and I think we’re seeing a lot from the, I don’t know what exactly to call them, thought leaders on the more liberal side saying, “Just do it, let it rip.” If it shuts down, they’re going to try to find a way to blame it on the Republicans.
So I think it’s a game of chicken at this point, but there are real consequences. These are people’s jobs who aren’t necessarily going to all want to come back to the government if things suddenly, it works out. These are activities that we rely on for everyday life that will be hurt.
Rovner: Yeah. We’ve already seen the administration trying to hire back some of the people that they laid off earlier this year because it turns out they were needed to do important jobs. I saw House Democratic Whip Katherine Clark this morning on CNN describing this letter as, “The beatings will continue until morale improves.” This really is playing with the lives of government workers who basically have come to these jobs because either they believe in them or because they usually have been stable jobs. They might, may be able to make more in the private sector, but government jobs tended to be secure, and boy, that’s not what’s happening right now. They don’t seem to be guilty parties in all of this, and yet they’re the ones who are being used as pawns.
Raman: I think one thing that I have been thinking about in reading that OMB memo is that it says that the rifts are going to affect people that aren’t also really aligned with carrying out President Trump’s priorities and mission. What does that entail? Within HHS, what falls in that bucket? We have some ideas based on previous executive orders and things that he’s made some remarks on, but there’s plenty that we don’t know.
Rovner: They could theoretically shut down the entire NIH [National Institutes of Health] or the entire CDC, which I think Secretary Kennedy might not mind.
Raman: How that would go about, I don’t know. I think that we’ll all be really looking to see what kind of contingency documents they put out. They usually put those out before, when we’re in this waiting period about a shutdown, and it would definitely be very different than the ones that we’ve had in the past for a department down or agencies. What that’ll say, I just don’t know.
Rovner: Yeah, that’s right. To be clear, the OMB memo is to the agencies saying, “Send us your contingency plans.” Normally, that would’ve happened by now, it usually comes out a couple of weeks ahead of a potential shutdown and everything. We’re playing brinksmanship here. Anna, you wanted to say something before we move on?
Edney: Oh, I don’t remember what that was. But just on the last point, I think the agencies, they usually have that contingency plan at the ready, but they can’t — I don’t think that this would’ve been the one that they had drawn up. I think they have to tear that up and start over again. And like you mentioned, the CDC, the NIH, you can, through this mandate, possibly see how you could just wipe out an entire agency.
I think on the FDA side, I just wanted to add, there are some user fees on that side that may keep the drug review side afloat, anything where they’re looking at approvals and things like that is funded, at least for a while. If this devolves for months and months, that’s not the case. But there are a lot of other parts where they’re doing inspections and keeping the drug supply and the food supply safe that could be impacted.
Rovner: Yeah. And we should point out that this does not affect things that have mandatory funding, like Medicare and Medicaid and Social Security, and, as you say, user fee funding, like the review activities at FDA.
Well, while we’re on the subject of things that are unprecedented, let’s turn back to that ACIP meeting and the White House autism announcement. One of the things that ties them together is the fact that both leave the public with more confusion than clarity over what to do about vaccines and Tylenol and, once again, leaves Americans wondering who or what they can trust. What’s the biggest takeaway from each of you? Anna, why don’t you go first, about both the autism announcement and the ACIP meeting?
Edney: Yeah, I think there just is a ton of confusion. I can’t count how many times people are like, “Remind me again, who can get a covid shot and who can’t? And what are we doing with RSV now?” There was a lot of talk before the ACIP meeting about hepatitis B and that even the ACIP members were confused.
So I think that one thing that I think this makes crystal clear is that when I know that this administration and many of the people at the top in health care don’t appreciate the medical establishment and they don’t feel that it is operated in a way that is open to modernization. But you can’t just break it all and then start over, these are guidelines and things that people rely on, and it has to be, I think, a much more thoughtful process than what we’re seeing right now. You have a lot of people who are pregnant or have young children who are freaking out, because they’re like, well, I took Tylenol for three days because I had a fever, and I think that it creates more fear-mongering, because the guidance really isn’t that different, what the FDA actually said isn’t that different from what was already out there, you’re just really scaring people now.
Raman: So I think I would say something along similar lines, the mixed messaging and the confusion of that both events is pretty stark. So I think the thing that struck me with ACIP is just the second day, we have a re-vote on something that you voted on the first day, and if you watch just one, you would assume that what happened there is done, and then going back, it’s just very unusual and makes it even more confusing.
And I think the second thing that struck me was that we had this whole shake-up of ACIP in general to be like, we don’t want conflicts of interest, we want people that are able to vote on everything. And then, here, when we have the votes, we have someone on ACIP not be able to vote on something because they’re disclosing a conflict of interest. So it struck me that we went through this whole process that was to eliminate that, and then here we are back to that, which people have been saying for a long time, it’s difficult to find anyone in this space that doesn’t have other things that are connected to vaccines.
For the autism announcement, the thing that was really interesting to me was that this was done on the White House level rather than just HHS is having an event, it’s with some agency folks there, and then them putting out information, whatever they’re talking about. This was predominantly Trump speaking in a much more aggressive, this is what is what tone, compared to the agency folks who mostly were downplaying a little bit of what he’s saying. He repeatedly said, over and over again, “Don’t take Tylenol, don’t take Tylenol, no Tylenol for pregnant women.” And then, even when you look at the FDA release that came out a little bit after really downplayed it, it said that there was an association, but there wasn’t a causal relationship that they had found between acetaminophen and autism in children. It goes back to that mixed messaging, where even if the majority of scientific professionals are saying that this goes against what a lot of the research that they’ve been doing, you’re going to be confused.
Rovner: Yes. Another thing that seems to tie together both the ACIP meeting and the autism announcement is to basically put all medical responsibility on individuals, which many consider to be blaming the victim and increasing stigma by basically saying, “Whatever you decide, whatever happens is your fault.” I feel like we’ve careened from maybe too much reliance on experts to too little. That was certainly the president’s message at that press conference, it’s like, “Well, this is just common sense.” It’s like, I thought we were supposed to be relying on gold-standard science.
Edney: That was a very stark point, where it was like, what do you mean you feel this? It’s like, I think you’re supposed to know that through research and scientific data.
But I wanted to go back, you mentioned blaming the patient, I think specifically on the autism side, this is something we see with expecting mothers a lot, because I interviewed professor Emily Oster about the autism announcement, and she dives very deep into data on a lot of things parents are concerned about, and she was telling me about “refrigerator moms” in the 1950s, and I didn’t realize this, but apparently women were blamed for different mental illnesses if they were too cold, not freezing-cold, but emotionally not available for their children enough, and so they must be causing their schizophrenia and there was a big link to that. And that continues, they’re telling the women, “If you have a fever or enough pain that you would consider popping a Tylenol, then that’s on you, just either deal with it or be responsible for the fate of your child.”
I think that’s what the medical establishment has been trying to avoid, is giving women options, and there are a lot of reasons you need to take care of that fever or you need to take care of that pain, and some of them have to do with the health of the child, the baby that they’re carrying, so …
Rovner: Right, fever is also a potential cause of problems.
Edney: Exactly.
Rovner: All right. Well, in a health-related story that doesn’t seem like a health-related story, the Trump administration late last week announced a new $100,000 application fee for H-1B visas. Now, those are usually associated with tech workers, but it turns out that an awful lot of medical professionals, particularly doctors from other countries, use them to come here to fill residency positions that American medical school graduates don’t fill — often low-paying primary care slots in rural areas. And, according to reporting from your colleagues at Bloomberg, it seems that medical personnel might be exempt from this new fee, but it’s not clear how many hoops hospitals might have to jump through to get those exemptions. At best, it doesn’t feel like this was very thoroughly thought through, particularly for an administration that says that rural health is a priority.
Edney: Right, yes. I think they may have been a little surprised by the amount of pushback from the hospital and doctor associations, saying, “We really rely on these to get doctors to rural areas.” And they almost immediately tried to massage that and say, “Oh, well, they could be included in exemptions.” But that’s all we know, “can be included” is not extremely reassuring. It’s not saying, “We’re giving you a blanket waiver for doctors,” or anything like that, and nobody knows, like you said, the hoops they might have to jump through. I would say it’s a start, and maybe they’re thinking about it, more aware of it, at this point.
Rovner: Sandhya, is there any pushback from Congress? Can the president even do this?
Raman: I think the pushback I’ve seen has been broader, not just on how this is going to affect hospitals that clearly cannot afford this in the same way that maybe some of the Big Tech companies may be able to. But I will be really interested when they come back just how lawmakers might look at this, because hospitals are the biggest employer in so many congressional districts, that if they’re pushing back, I could see people that normally don’t push back on this kind of thing saying, “If the biggest employer in my district is going to tank because of this,” it rises up as an issue for them.
Rovner: On the other hand, we haven’t seen a lot of pushback from Congress for things that we expected to see pushback on, so I guess we’ll have to watch that space.
Raman: Yeah.
Rovner: Well, finally this week, there’s good news and bad news on drug prices, which President Trump has vowed to reduce by, and I looked this up to get the quote correct, 1,400% to 1,500%. He said it many other ways, by the way. The idea of his, quote, “most-favored-nation” executive order that he issued last spring is to get drugmakers to lower U.S. prices to those charged in other countries that have price controls that we don’t have. Well, Trump is getting half of what he wanted, according to Axios. Several large drugmakers say they’re going to equalize what they charge here and overseas, but not by lowering prices for Americans, rather by raising them for Europeans and others. On the other hand, there’s still a few more days until the Sept. 29 deadline for them to do this. Anna, are you hearing anything new on this?
Edney: I haven’t heard anything new. I think we just saw, like you mentioned, what Bristol Myers Squibb did, which was a newer schizophrenia drug they raised, they said they were going to introduce that in the U.K. [United Kingdom] at the same price in the U.S., extremely convenient for the pharmaceutical companies to be able to have this reason to raise prices elsewhere. But then, of course, they can find reasons not to bring them down so far in the U.S., and we’ve seen — the only other company I can think of was Eli Lilly did this earlier this summer, saying they would do the same for their drug Mounjaro, and there was maybe some hoarding that started because people in Europe don’t want to pay the higher price.
Rovner: Mounjaro being a diabetes drug that is also the weight loss drug.
Edney: Right, right, yeah, so the weight loss drugs have seen a lot of ups and downs. But you’re right, there’s only a few days left, and it’s interesting that it hasn’t leaked … any kind of plan that the pharmaceutical companies are talking about or anything like that. Sometimes, I feel like because this administration is operating more by telling people through letters and demanding it at the podium rather than doing actual regulations — remember, the most-favored-nation policy did not work out well after challenged in court the first administration. So I think they’re often happy to get half of what they asked for in a way. But this could be tough, because it lets Trump say, “We’re no longer carrying all the water,” but it doesn’t let him say, “We decreased prices for the American people.” So we’ll have to see …
Rovner: By 1,400% to 1,500%.
Edney: Right, right, get those economists to figure that out. But we’ll just have to see what’s going on even … so much. The shutdown may take all his fire.
Rovner: Yeah. This is one of those issues that is bipartisan, that it is popular on Capitol Hill, and that lawmakers keep saying they’re going to do something about, but so far, we’re not seeing it, are we?
Raman: I think that there’s so much that they have on their plate right now and just so much that they have been at odds with each other right now, it’s something that would’ve gotten more attention in normal times, has just gotten really delayed at this point.
Rovner: These are definitely not normal times.
Raman: Yep.
Rovner: All right. Well, that is the news for this week. Now, it’s time for our extra-credit segment. That’s where we each recognize a story we read this week we think you should read too. Don’t worry, if you miss it; we will put the links in our show notes on your phone or other mobile device. Anna, why don’t you go first this week?
Edney: Sure. So mine is in The Washington Post, and it’s: “Do State Abortion Laws Affect Women’s Recruiting? That’s Up to Athletes.” It was a really interesting look at basically how women athletes, specifically in basketball, and they discuss others lower down, are choosing college based on abortion laws — the states where they have less restrictive abortion laws, or more abortion rights, I guess I should say — then they’re tending to go there. And then, you have the schools more in the South, where they’re more restrictive, where they’re choosing not to go there for the four years of their college life. And it was something that I think was just a really interesting look at a topic that has been on everyone’s mind, but with so much going on, not exactly focusing on it. And it talks about other trends in college admissions and things too. So something to think about.
Rovner: Yeah. I know we’ve talked a lot about health workers avoiding states with abortion restrictions. This is the first time I’ve seen this link to younger women and sports and college, and we’ll see whether some of the states react to that. Sandhya?
Raman: My extra credit is called “Psychiatric Hospitals [Turn Away Patients Who Need Urgent Care. The Facilities Face Few Consequences],” and it’s in ProPublica by Eli Cahan. And I think what drew me to this is EMTALA [the Emergency Medical Treatment and Labor Act] has been one of those things where we have been thinking about it a lot in terms of abortion, when we’ve seen it in the news in the last few years, it’s been very abortion-focused. But this story looks at a psychiatric hospital in Colorado that got taken to task for not providing stabilizing care to patients at risk for suicide, and CMS [the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services] didn’t penalize them in reducing funding or imposing any penalties. It’s part of a broader thing, where over 90 psychiatric hospitals have violated EMTALA in the past 15 years. I don’t want to give away the whole thing of the story, but it goes more into this.
Rovner: Yeah, it’s a really good story. All right. My extra credit this week is from NBC News by my friend and former colleague Liz Szabo, and it’s called “RFK Jr. Has the Federal Vaccine Court in His Sights. Attacking It Could Threaten Vaccine Production in the U.S.” It’s a really good roundup about what’s likely to be the HHS secretary’s next target: the program that compensates the very small number of Americans who are injured or killed by vaccine side effects. There are risks to all vaccines, although they are very much outweighed by the benefits, and this program was created by Congress during the Reagan administration to compensate those who have suffered from those rare adverse reactions.
The program was created to keep vaccine manufacturing alive in the United States because product liability suits were threatening to shut it down entirely, while the program also makes it easier for those who are injured to receive compensation. The program is far from perfect and it could use some revisions, which Congress has tried and failed to do over the last couple of decades. But it seems clear that that’s not what Secretary Kennedy has in mind. It’s a great preview of what the next likely battle is going to be in the vaccine wars.
OK, that is this week’s show. Thanks this week to our editor, Stephanie Stapleton, and our producer-engineer, Francis Ying. If you enjoy the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left us a review; that helps other people find us too. Also, as always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org, or you can find me on X, @jrovner, or on Bluesky, @julierovner. Where are you folks these days? Sandhya?
Raman: At X and on Bluesky: @SandhyaWrites.
Rovner: Anna?
Edney: Same places, @annaedney or @annaedney.
Rovner: We will be back in your feed next week. Until then, be healthy.
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4 weeks 1 day ago
Courts, Health Care Costs, Health Industry, Insurance, Medicaid, Medicare, Multimedia, Pharmaceuticals, Public Health, autism, CDC, Children's Health, Drug Costs, HHS, KFF Health News' 'What The Health?', Misinformation, Podcasts, Pregnancy, Prescription Drugs, reproductive health, Trump Administration, U.S. Congress, vaccines, Women's Health
Inside the CDC, Shooting Adds to Trauma as Workers Describe Projects, Careers in Limbo
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention workers whose jobs have been reinstated after dizzying Trump administration disruptions say they remain stuck in a budgetary, political, and professional limbo.
Their work includes major agency priorities such as HIV testing and monitoring, as well as work at the nation’s leading sexually transmitted infections lab. And while employees are back, many projects have been canceled or stalled, as funding disappears or is delayed.
“For a while, work was staring at a blank screen,” an HIV scientist said. “I had a couple of projects before this. I’m trying to get them restarted.”
“We don’t know what’s happening or what to do,” said an HIV prevention researcher who was fired then rehired.
These employees voiced deep concern over the future of the agency and its work on HIV and other threats. The unprecedented downsizing could lead to loss of life and higher spending on medical care, they say. Their uncertain employment status has sunk morale. Many worry about the future of public health.
On Aug. 8, a gunman identified by Georgia authorities as Patrick Joseph White fired shots at CDC buildings in Atlanta. A first responder on the scene, DeKalb County police officer David Rose, was killed. White, who was found dead, was possibly motivated by his views on vaccines, according to news reports.
The attack added another level of anxiety for agency workers.
“We feel threatened from inside, and, obviously, now from outside,” a lab scientist said Aug. 10. “The trauma runs so differently in all of us. And is this the last straw for some of us? The overall morale — would you go back in the building and you could be shot at?”
Healthbeat interviewed 11 CDC workers, who offered a rare glimpse into conditions at the agency. All but one had been fired then offered their jobs back. Most have worked on HIV-related projects for at least several years. All spoke on the condition of anonymity, citing a fear of retaliation.
They fear their employment, in the HIV scientist’s terms, “is on shaky ground.”
“I’m concerned there is chaos and that we lost ground on HIV prevention” from reductions in data collection and layoffs of local public health workers, an HIV epidemiologist said. “I feel like a pawn on a chessboard.”
HHS spokesperson Emily Hilliard responded to a query with this statement:
“Under Secretary Kennedy’s leadership, the nation’s critical public health functions remain intact and effective. The Trump administration is committed to protecting essential services — whether it’s supporting coal miners and firefighters through NIOSH, safeguarding public health through lead prevention, or researching and tracking the most prevalent communicable diseases. HHS is streamlining operations without compromising mission-critical work. Enhancing the health and well-being of all Americans remains our top priority.”
The workers received some positive news July 31, when a Senate committee voted to keep CDC funding at more than $9 billion, near its current level. “It is very encouraging, but that’s only one step in the appropriations process,” the HIV researcher said.
Still, under the Trump administration’s budget request, the CDC’s programs on HIV face uncertainty. John Brooks, who retired as chief medical officer of the CDC’s Division of HIV Prevention last year, expressed concern over the Ending the HIV Epidemic initiative. Launched in President Donald Trump’s first term, it “breathed new life into HIV prevention,” Brooks said.
The successes of the Ending the HIV Epidemic initiative are jeopardized by the administration plan to scale back HIV prevention efforts, Brooks said. That would include the potential elimination of the CDC Division of HIV Prevention, which provides funds to state health departments and other groups for testing and prevention, conducts HIV monitoring and surveillance, researches HIV prevention and care, and assists medical professionals with training and education.
“There is no way to achieve the goals of EHE without maintaining the national prevention infrastructure it depends on,” Brooks said. “There is every reason to worry that in fact new HIV infections will rise again.”
Under Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr., the Department of Health and Human Services carried out widespread layoffs at the CDC and other health agencies beginning in early April. Lawsuits over those mass firings are playing out in federal courts.
The administration’s budget blueprint would move CDC HIV work — with many fewer employees, according to people Healthbeat interviewed — to the Administration for a Healthy America, a new HHS division Kennedy has championed.
The Medical Monitoring Project, which tracks outcomes, quality, and gaps in HIV treatment, is set to be a casualty under the Trump restructuring plan, an HIV prevention physician said.
HHS officials have not communicated with the rank and file about the restructuring, several CDC workers said.
“It’s been crickets,” the HIV scientist said.
The White House’s proposed CDC budget for the next fiscal year contains a cut of more than 50%, plummeting from $9.2 billion in fiscal year 2025 to about $4.2 billion, according to administration documents and public health advocacy groups, with some agency functions transferred to the proposed AHA. The Senate committee, by an overwhelming vote, injected billions back into the agency budget and declined to fund the AHA.
U.S. Sen. Jon Ossoff, a Georgia Democrat, thanked the committee for “rejecting the unacceptable effort to defund most of the CDC.”
“The budget request from the White House included a 56% cut to the world’s preeminent epidemiological agency,” Ossoff said. He also criticized a “systematic destruction of morale at the CDC, the disbandment of entire agencies focused on maternal health and neonatal health and disease prevention at the CDC.”
If the White House prevails and the prevention program is eliminated, “we would see most states have no funding for HIV prevention,” said Emily Schreiber, senior director of policy and legislative affairs for the National Alliance of State and Territorial AIDS Directors. “That means most states would not be able to conduct any HIV testing, any referral to care, and/or referral to preventive services like PrEP,” or pre-exposure prophylaxis, a drug that can prevent HIV infections.
“It means that states would not be able to help people get access to medications,” she said, “and that means that we would see new cases and an increased spread of HIV across the United States.”
“We would definitely see layoffs at the CDC, and I think we’d probably see them at state health departments and community-based organizations as well,” she added.
The Los Angeles County Department of Public Health has recently laid off or reassigned dozens of HIV workers due to funding problems, according to a statement emailed to Healthbeat.
“I fear all HIV prevention work will go away permanently,” the HIV prevention researcher said. “I don’t think this administration wants HIV prevention work to be done by the federal government.”
Georgia leads U.S. states in the rate of new HIV infections, according to the latest data from AIDSVu. CDC workers also said they’re concerned that vulnerable communities of color and LGBTQ+ communities would be deeply harmed by funding cuts.
In Georgia and other states, information provided by the Medical Monitoring Project about access to care will disappear, the HIV physician said. Information on prevention and treatment will dwindle for people who are disadvantaged, he said, including those with substance abuse problems or mental illness, transgender people, and those living in poverty.
“There is a lot of anger and sadness among people over the termination of the project,” the physician said. “A lot of the enthusiasm is gone.”
An effective home testing program for HIV plans to shutter this fall, said Patrick Sullivan, the Together TakeMeHome project’s lead scientist and a professor at Emory University’s Rollins School of Public Health. In its notice canceling funding for the project, the CDC said it no longer had the staff to oversee it. Based at Emory, the project delivered more than 900,000 free home testing kits to people across the country through an easy-to-use website and integration with dating apps.
More than 100 HIV workers were among the more than 450 CDC staffers brought back, said employees interviewed by Healthbeat. Some cited media coverage, support in Congress, and advocacy by patient groups and pharmaceutical companies for their reinstatement. “Members of Congress are going to bat for HIV,” the epidemiologist said.
Several are closely watching a lawsuit brought by 20 Democratic attorneys general, seeking to halt an agency restructuring plan Kennedy announced in March. They are also paying attention to a lawsuit filed in California that challenges the firings.
A few people whose jobs were restored have retired or moved on to other work. “Some people aren’t trusting we will remain, so they’re leaving,” the HIV prevention researcher said.
At the CDC’s sexually transmitted infections lab in Atlanta, work has also slowed due to a shrinking staff and new spending constraints on supplies, the lab scientist said.
Restored lab workers are focusing on high-priority areas such as syphilis and gonorrhea while other diseases have been back-burnered, the scientist said, adding “a lot of what we were doing was staying ahead of the next pathogen, and we feel like our time and effort to do that now is limited.”
“We’re all public health because we know what the mission is,” the scientist said. “We just want to get our job done and protect the American public.”
Healthbeat is a nonprofit newsroom covering public health published by Civic News Company and KFF Health News. Sign up for its national newsletter here.
KFF Health News is a national newsroom that produces in-depth journalism about health issues and is one of the core operating programs at KFF—an independent source of health policy research, polling, and journalism. Learn more about KFF.
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2 months 2 weeks ago
Health Industry, Public Health, Race and Health, Rural Health, States, Agency Watch, california, CDC, Georgia, Healthbeat, HIV/AIDS, Trump Administration, U.S. Congress
KFF Health News' 'What the Health?': Kennedy Cancels Vaccine Funding
The Host
Emmarie Huetteman
KFF Health News
The Host
Emmarie Huetteman
KFF Health News
Emmarie Huetteman, senior editor, oversees a team of Washington reporters, as well as “Bill of the Month” and KFF Health News’ “What the Health?” She previously spent more than a decade reporting on the federal government, most recently covering surprise medical bills, drug pricing reform, and other health policy debates in Washington and on the campaign trail.
Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr.’s announcement that the federal government will cancel nearly $500 million in mRNA research funding is unnerving not only for those who develop vaccines, but also for public health experts who see the technology behind the first covid-19 shots as the nation’s best hope to combat a future pandemic.
And President Donald Trump is demanding that major pharmaceutical companies offer many American patients the same prices available to patients overseas. It isn’t the first time he’s made such threats, and drugmakers — who scored a couple of wins against Medicare negotiations in the president’s tax and spending law — are unlikely to volunteer to drop their prices.
This week’s panelists are Emmarie Huetteman of KFF Health News, Sarah Karlin-Smith of the Pink Sheet, Sandhya Raman of CQ Roll Call, and Lauren Weber of The Washington Post.
Panelists
Sarah Karlin-Smith
Pink Sheet
@sarahkarlin-smith.bsky.social
Sandhya Raman
CQ Roll Call
Lauren Weber
The Washington Post
Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:
- Explaining the decision to cancel some mRNA vaccine funding, a priority for vaccine critics, Kennedy falsely claimed that the technology is ineffective against respiratory illnesses. Researchers have been making headway into mRNA vaccines for maladies such as bird flu and even cancer, and the Trump administration’s opposition to backing vaccine development weakens the prospects for future breakthroughs.
- Trump’s insistence that big-name drugmakers voluntarily lower their prices underscores how few tools the presidency has to deliver results on this important pocketbook issue for many Americans. Medicare’s ability to negotiate drug prices took a hit under Trump’s big tax-and-spending law, which included two provisions advocated by the pharmaceutical industry that would delay or exclude some expensive drugs from the dealmaking process.
- A year after Trump promised on the campaign trail to secure coverage of in vitro fertilization, the White House reportedly is not planning to compel insurers to pay for those pricey reproductive services — a change that would require an act of Congress and could raise costs overall.
- And with Congress back home for its August recess and a late September deadline looming, the annual government funding process is in progress — but unlikely to resolve quickly or cleanly. Senate appropriators are further along in their work than usual, but the House of Representatives has yet to release its version, which is expected to cut deeper and hit social issues like abortion harder.
Plus, for “extra credit” the panelists suggest health policy stories they read (or wrote) this week that they think you should read, too:
Emmarie Huetteman: KFF Health News’ “New Medicaid Federal Work Requirements Mean Less Leeway for States,” by Katheryn Houghton and Bram Sable-Smith.
Sarah Karlin-Smith: Slate’s “Confessions of a Welfare Queen,” by Maria Kefalas.
Sandhya Raman: CQ Roll Call’s “Sweden’s Push for Smokeless Products Leads Some To Wonder About Risks,” by Sandhya Raman.
Lauren Weber: The New York Times’ “‘Hot Wasps’ Found at Nuclear Facility in South Carolina,” by Emily Anthes.
Also mentioned in this week’s podcast:
- The Washington Post’s “How RFK Jr.’s mRNA Crackdown Affects Vaccinemaking and Future Pandemics,” by Carolyn Y. Johnson and Lauren Weber.
- The AP’s “Fact Focus: Trump Says He’s Cut Drug Prices By Up to 1,500%. That’s Not Possible,” by Melissa Goldin.
- The Washington Post’s “Medicare, Medicaid Plan To Experiment with Covering Weight Loss Drugs,” by Paige Winfield Cunningham.
- The Washington Post’s “White House Has No Plan To Mandate IVF Care, Despite Campaign Pledge,” by Riley Beggin and Jeff Stein.
click to open the transcript
Transcript: Kennedy Cancels Vaccine Funding
[Editor’s note: This transcript was generated using both transcription software and a human’s light touch. It has been edited for style and clarity.]
Emmarie Huetteman: Hello, and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Emmarie Huetteman, a senior editor for KFF Health News, and I’m joined by some of the best and smartest health reporters in Washington. We’re taping this week on Thursday, Aug. 7, at 10 a.m. As always, news happens fast, and things might have changed by the time you hear this. Here we go.
Today, we’re joined via video conference by Lauren Weber of The Washington Post.
Lauren Weber: Hey, everybody.
Huetteman: Sandhya Raman of CQ Roll Call.
Sandhya Raman: Good morning.
Huetteman: And Sarah Karlin-Smith of the Pink Sheet.
Sarah Karlin-Smith: Hi, everybody.
Huetteman: It’s August, and here in the nation’s capital that means Congress has flown the coop, and a lot of the federal city has gone with them. No interview this week. And you may be wondering why you’re hearing my voice instead of the incomparable Julie Rovner. Julie’s out this week having surgery to repair her broken wrist. Good news: She’s on the mend and she’ll be back in your podcast feed very soon. Get well soon, Julie. Let’s get to the news.
On Tuesday, the Trump administration announced that the secretary of Health and Human Services, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., has canceled almost $500 million in federal grants and contracts to develop mRNA vaccines. That technology, of course, was responsible for the first covid vaccines, and researchers have been working on new ways to use mRNA, including against bird flu and even cancer. But in explaining his decision, Kennedy made false claims about mRNA vaccines, including that they do not protect against respiratory illnesses. Kennedy’s opposition to the covid vaccine, in particular, is well-documented. But before becoming health secretary, he advocated for federal officials to revoke approval for mRNA-based covid shots.
Sarah, you’re our pharmaceutical industry expert. What will this mean for vaccine development? Without this government funding, can that research continue?
Karlin-Smith: I think people are really concerned, particularly about the speed of vaccine development for pandemic situations. That’s a classic market failure in that companies aren’t that incentivized to work on developing products for hypothetical situations that may never come to pass, but we obviously want to be prepared for strains of the flu that can be particularly harmful and stuff. So I think that’s where people are really concerned.
I think, in general, this is just another mark in some of the vaccine actions that have taken place since this administration took over that makes people a little more nervous about just investing in the vaccine field, whether it’s mRNA or vaccines in general. FDA has made some unusual decisions around the indications for covid vaccines moving forward. The [Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s] whole [Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices] has changed. So I do think there’s broader concern beyond the mRNA vaccines and our need to have this technology to really prepare for a pandemic about how confident industry will be in the places they normally would invest money on their own.
Huetteman: Lauren, you had a story yesterday about how Kennedy’s decision is intensifying concerns about our ability to fight future pandemics. Can you tell us what you’re hearing from public health experts?
Weber: Yeah. We spoke to a number of public health experts and vaccine experts, mRNA experts, who said, Look, this is the technology that you want to be spry, to be able to alter something, to fight potentially a bird flu. It’s also used in revolutionary ways to fight maybe even cancer here in the future. There’s a lot of fear about how this could have a chilling effect, as Sarah was pointing out, on the development pipeline and what that means in a pandemic situation.
I do think it’s important to note that just this morning, Trump was asked about this and said he was going to have a meeting on it at noon. Not sure exactly what that means, but potentially that could be something. Robert Malone, who’s an ACIP member, sent out an email trying to rally MAHA [“Make America Healthy Again”] supporters to make sure that they backed up Kennedy’s decision.
I think it’s also important to take a step back and look at Kennedy’s past remarks on mRNA, as you alluded to. This is a man who falsely called the covid vaccine “the deadliest ever made.” He’s described it as a poison in the past. Some anti-vaccine factions of MAHA have really been pushing to try and limit access to mRNA technology. You’ve seen this also in some Republican and far-right states, that are more right. You’ve seen some legislation suggested to remove access to mRNA technology. There’s a big question among some of the folks we talked to on if this is a bit of a signal to the base.
Karlin-Smith: I was going to say, ironically, the mRNA vaccines was probably the biggest success of the Trump administration’s first term in office. He was instrumental in spearheading the fast development of the vaccines for covid.
Huetteman: Right, Operation Warp Speed. Interesting how far we’ve come. To be clear, this isn’t all of the government’s mRNA contracts, right? This is just a piece of the research funding?
Karlin-Smith: This is a piece of it coming through BARDA [the Biomedical Advanced Research and Development Authority], which is particularly designed to help fill those market gaps in pandemic preparedness, but they’ve also cut other mRNA vaccine contracts previously in this administration, including a big one around bird flu, which people are concerned about right now. I’ve even seen some media reports where people, researchers in the cancer but mRNA space, were concerned about grants just being flagged just because they had the terminology. It’s not everything, but I think there’s certainly fears that this is just a step in a bigger process that is problematic.
Huetteman: Absolutely. We’ll be keeping an eye on that. And vaccine contracts aren’t the only thing that President Trump’s team is undoing this week. Under a new federal rule, VA hospitals would no longer be able to perform abortions in cases of rape, incest, or health endangerment. You may remember that the Biden administration introduced that policy at the Department of Veterans Affairs in 2022, after the Supreme Court ended the constitutional right to an abortion. The policy has allowed veterans and their relatives to obtain abortion services even while they are stationed in states with restrictions.
Meanwhile, lots of news to get to this week. In prescription drug news, late last week, President Donald Trump sent letters to more than a dozen drugmakers insisting that they drop their prices within 60 days. Specifically, the president demanded that pharmaceutical companies offer many American patients the same prices that drugmakers charge abroad. Over the weekend, Trump told reporters that his administration is dramatically lowering drug prices, “up to 1,500%,” he said — which, well, I think that technically means the drugmaker would pay you.
Anyway, Trump told drugmakers that if they don’t lower drug prices, “We will deploy every tool in our arsenal.” What can the president do to force drugmakers to comply?
Karlin-Smith: I think, in some ways, he doesn’t have as many tools in the toolbox as he probably would like to think. At least, not ones that are making the industry particularly fearful right now. He doesn’t have the power to just issue a regulation saying, “The Medicare-Medicaid reimbursement rates are tied to the rates countries are paying abroad.” That would have to be through legislation. And I think there are reasons that both Republicans and Democrats don’t really like this most-favored-nation approach to drug pricing. There is some sort of limited authority for them to do a demonstration project through CMS’ [Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services’] Medicare-Medicaid Innovation Center. They could come up with a test of this in some kind of limited area. They tried to start implementing that [in] his last term and they got scuttled by lawsuits, so we’ll see if they have a way to avoid that problem this time.
But the ironic thing is that when the administration issued this executive order in May calling for this most-favored-nation pricing, he set this 30-day-ish deadline of saying, OK, we’ll tell you what prices we want, you guys lower them. If not, we’re going to do rulemaking. One thing that came up when he issued this letter, these letters on Friday, giving industry another 60 days is, Well, why are they not just going through with some kind of rulemaking or next steps? It almost seemed to some people like almost a more muted threat because they haven’t done the follow-through yet or come up with what the follow-through is here.
Huetteman: Now, where is the Medicare’s drug negotiation ability in this equation? Why isn’t the president doing more to leverage Medicare’s power to negotiate at this point?
Weber: Well, that’s really interesting because in the “Big, Beautiful Bill,” there were two provisions that a lot of people missed that limited the ability to negotiate on some key drugs, which has been estimated to likely cost the American taxpayer and the government billions of dollars over the next couple years.
Huetteman: Yeah, the CBO says that those changes will cost Medicare at least $5 billion in missed savings over 10 years.
Weber: Yes, that’s what’s called effective lobbying. Essentially, what happened is some pharma companies were able to tuck in provisions that key drugs, I think it was Keytruda, I’m not sure if I’m pronouncing that right, or Keytruda, which is used to treat cancer, it’s a drug by Merck. It had $17.9 billion in U.S. sales in 2024. That’s the kind of drug that they won’t be able to negotiate prices on for a bit.
Huetteman: Yeah, that’s right. Of course, that also means that Medicare patients will be subject to paying their percentage of those higher prices as well. On top of talking about this CBO score there, we’re talking about drug prices that real people are paying for their expensive cancer drugs right now. I guess I’m curious why Trump isn’t using the negotiation process in order to lower those drug prices?
Raman: I would add that something that makes this more difficult is that Trump has been very back-and-forth about a lot of his opinions on different things that he’s going to do throughout the last several months in this process. Even if you look at something like how we would deal with tariffs on the pharmaceutical industry, we’ve been a little bit all over the place. I think even if he’s not demonstrating the clear idea of which way he’d want to go, it makes it a little bit harder for the regulators, whether it would be in Congress or through the FDA, to do anything, given that he’s been changing a lot what he’s hinting at wanting to do.
Huetteman: Yeah, that’s right. Actually, Sarah, you brought up the CMS innovation option. There’s a story out about this this week. The Washington Post reports that the Trump administration is considering using that center to do a pilot project to expand access to GLP-1 drugs for weight loss purposes by allowing state Medicaid and Medicare Part D plans to cover them.
Now, insurance premiums are slated to go way up next year. If I’m not mistaken, the cost of covering GLP-1 drugs is one reason that insurers have cited for those premium hikes. If this happens, can we expect that the cost of those drugs would strain state and federal budgets?
Karlin-Smith: Actually, one I guess positive thing is that some GLP-1 drugs are slated to be subject to negotiation through the IRA [Inflation Reduction Act] program next year, so that there’s maybe positive news around the prices of those going down. Again, that’s obviously only for Medicare. But the problem on the back end is that, based on law, Medicare is not allowed in Part D to cover drugs for weight loss.
The Biden administration had tried through rulemaking to make an argument that weight loss drugs and drugs that treat obesity are two different things, hearkening back to — when that law was written we really didn’t understand obesity as a disease process and all the health problems it has on your body. We thought of weight loss as more of a cosmetic thing. The Trump administration actually pulled that rule, so this would be a much more small step in the direction of trying to get coverage. The report says it would be a “voluntary demo.”
The biggest question in my mind, which is again, knowing that these drugs, even with cheaper prices, would likely raise costs, is what is the incentive for health plans to voluntarily want to participate in this? What would the government have to do to incentivize this? Without some sort of push there for states and for Medicare Part D plans, I’m not sure the private plans are just going to pick up these products given the amount of people that would qualify for them. I think we need a lot more details from the Trump administration to know if they can actually make this feasible.
Weber: I just find this to be such a fascinating move considering [CMS Administrator Mehmet] Oz and Kennedy have such different opinions about weight loss drugs, as does MAHA as a whole. We at The Washington Post had reported previously that Oz does have financial ties to Ozempic through his show — they had to run a sponsored ad to some extent — and also through other means. It’s fascinating to see that clearly this is going forward, despite Kennedy having said repeatedly, often, constantly that he does not want to pay for these drugs, that he thinks other interventions, healthy diet and lifestyle, should be implemented. Which Oz has also really promoted as well. So fascinating to see how this experiment plays out. I agree with Sarah; I’m not sure where the incentives are, considering the cost that this will be to see it play out.
Huetteman: And one year after Trump promised coverage for in vitro fertilization services on the campaign trail, The Washington Post reports that the White House does not plan to require health insurers to cover IVF. The president had said that “if he were elected, the government would either pay for IVF services itself or require insurance companies to do it.”
What’s standing in the way here? What’s involved in making something an essential health benefit?
Raman: I think this whole process has been interesting. In February, Trump had put out an executive order directing his administration to come up ways to reduce the out-of-pocket costs for IVF. At the time, it’s pretty vague in terms of what that would entail. After the deadline passed, in part, I think a lot of people weren’t surprised because a) IVF is very expensive. And b) I think there are a lot of complicated nuances to some of his base and whether or not they fully support IVF. We had a lot of this last year, with people saying that they support it, but then also some of the folks that are more pro-life have some stipulations about not wanting embryos destroyed. It just complicated that some of the people that were talking to him about some of the other abortion-related issues were not on board with all of the IVF things. I think that has played definitely a factor in what they’re going to do with this.
But it’s also a hard thing to do, to just make this something that — even with prescription drugs, reducing the costs of those is not simple. In order for them to make it an essential health benefit, I think, is also more complicated given the issues that we’ve been having with preventative care, and just the concerns about the [U.S. Preventive Services Task Force] getting removed and what that’ll do to different things that are covered. It’s complicated and I wouldn’t really see this changing on IVF in the near future, at least from the executive level.
Karlin-Smith: It needs to go through Congress to be an essential health benefit. I think there’s a theme in some of the topics we’re coming up to today where Trump is clearly coming up to the limits of his bully power and his threats of negotiation. I think Martin Makary, the head of the FDA, said, “You get more bees with honey.” Well, unfortunately, sometimes it’s just not enough to attract these industries to make major changes.
Yes, they’ve gotten some sort of minor concessions, I think. I know they would like to think they’re transformative, but I think a lot of what they’ve gotten voluntarily is pretty minor, in terms of both health impact, and also how much it harms industry in terms of, like, food dyes. Or even the insurance companies saying, Oh, sure, we’ll do better on not going crazy on prior authorization.
I think Trump now has to actually double-down and work with policymakers on rule writing, or work with Congress. It’s more complicated, especially again, as Sandhya said, IVF is something that’s complicated for his base to support.
Huetteman: That’s right. This all came out of the blowback about how far towards banning abortion the country was going to go under Trump. This was a way to say, We’re preserving some parts of the reproductive health that are really important to people in our base, right?
Raman: Yet even when Congress has tried to look at any of the IVF legislation in the past, it’s fallen on party lines. There have been ones that have been more messaging on either side. I think the closest we’ve gotten is that, on the defense side, trying to consider measures there for folks with Tricare, but it’s difficult to get folks on board with things like this through Congress.
Huetteman: Well, speaking of Congress, Congress has left the building. August recess has begun and lawmakers are back home. Say, how is that government funding coming along. Sandhya?
Raman: I think we’re in a similar place to many years in that it’s August, they’re out. We need government funding by the end of September, and we’re nowhere close to getting that. I would say on the plus side, the Senate is further along than they usually are. Before they left, they did mark up the Labor, HHS, Education funding bill, and that was overwhelmingly bipartisan. It included some money that would be a boost for NIH [the National Institutes of Health], which I know was a big concern for a lot of folks given what was in the White House proposal. It maintains funding for some of the programs that would be cut under the White House, things like Title X, Ryan White HIV. It also has a little bit of a pushback on making sure that the agencies continue the staffing to keep up some of their statutory duties.
But again, it’s just the Senate. The House has not put out their bill. I would expect theirs to be a bit more conservative, given that the head of the Appropriations Committee in the Senate is Susan Collins, who’s been a little bit more moderate. The House is expected to release theirs and mark up theirs right after they get back. They meant to do it before recess but got pushed back because of reconciliation and that changing their schedule.
It depends what they say in theirs and how much difference there is. I would expect there to be a lot of differences. It seems like we’re headed toward the usual of at least some sort of temporary spending to kick it down the line. Whether or not that ends up being a year again, like we did this year, or a short-term thing, we’re not sure yet. It depends on where we are in September.
Huetteman: Right. And possibly preceded by a lot of fighting over social issues that get thrown into the health bill, and fights over the actual funding levels, if I had to guess, based on how House lawmakers have been talking about it so far.
Raman: Oh, no. I think just the fact that we had such a big rescissions debate this year and the fact that we might do that again, it has definitely left a sour taste for a lot of Democrats who are worried that if whatever they vote for here might just get clawed back later on down the line. That’ll be another thorn in it.
Huetteman: Awesome. Well, thanks for that take. That’s this week’s news. Now it’s time for our extra-credits segment. That’s where we each recognize a story we read this week that we think you should read, too. Don’t worry if you miss it; we’ll put the links in our show notes on your phone or other mobile device.
Lauren, why don’t you go first this week?
Weber: I have a doozy of a story from The New York Times titled “‘Hot Wasps’ Found at Nuclear Facility in South Carolina,” by Emily Anthes. Yeah, it’s the stuff of nightmares. It’s all about how wasps became radioactive — four wasps’ nests near a South Carolina nuclear facility.
Huetteman: Yikes.
Weber: If this gave you bad dreams, it definitely did for me. Essentially, what some of the researchers have posited is that wasps could have burrowed in some sort of bad wood or wood that was contaminated or other parts of the area that are contaminated. But this idea that it sounds like something out of Chernobyl, or something like that. But this idea that in the U.S., you could have a nuclear facility that is potentially transforming some of the near-wildlife is concerning in terms of cleanup efforts, and also concerning in terms of contamination control. Clearly, there’s more that needs to be dug into there. Hopefully everyone sleeps after hearing about this.
Huetteman: Woof, yeah. I might need to take an Ambien tonight. Sandhya, how about you go next?
Raman: My extra credit is from me in Roll Call. It’s my last dispatch from my reporting trip in Sweden earlier this year. And it’s called “Sweden’s Push for Smokeless Products Leads Some To Wonder About Risks.” It looks a little bit at some of the public health impacts as Sweden has really tried to reduce their smoking rate to become smoke-free. The U.S. is also at a low from smoking. Some of the things that public health experts are thinking about as people shift to other products and how they’re able to message to the remaining smokers that are not willing to give that up still.
Huetteman: Awesome. Thanks for telling us about your work there. And Sarah?
Karlin-Smith: I looked at a story from Slate, “Confessions of a Welfare Queen: I Study Poverty for a Living, and I Never Thought I’d Need Medicaid. Then My Child Was Diagnosed With a Terminal Illness,” by Maria Kefalas. It’s a personal story from a mother whose family needed Medicaid when their young child was diagnosed with an illness that was going to severely require intense medical care and limit her lifespan. They were able to take advantage of what are known as “Katie Beckett waivers” that were instituted by Ronald Reagan to allow states to voluntarily allow higher income requirements so that people could get Medicaid and care for their children at home. The original girl it was named for was otherwise basically going to be stuck living her life, and she lived until 34, in a hospital.
The purpose of the story is really to point out that now that the “Big, Beautiful Bill” has passed and there are $1 trillion in spending cuts to Medicaid, that these are some of the sorts of people and programs, because it is not a mandatory program, that may unfortunately be on the first for the chopping block. I think the piece does a good job of pointing out, while there’s been a lot of rhetoric around the people who are going to get hurt by this are people that are not working or somehow abusing the system, and the mother does a pretty good job of talking about how both she and her husband continue to work. Most of the families that need this program, to the extent they can, want to keep working. You just get a really human picture of the type of people that are at risk of losing services.
Huetteman: Yeah, for sure. It’s a really illuminating story. Thanks for talking about it. My extra credit this week is from my colleagues here at KFF Health News. The headline is “New Medicaid Federal Work Requirements Mean Less Leeway for States.” It’s by Katheryn Houghton and Bram Sable-Smith.
They report that at least 14 states are in progress designing their own work requirement programs. But now, with the passage of Trump’s law last month, which institutes federal work requirements, those states must make sure that their programs meet federal standards. In some cases, the states are actually going even further than federal requirements, my colleagues report. For instance, Arizona state law would institute a five-year lifetime limit on Medicaid coverage for “able-bodied adults.”
OK, that’s this week’s show. Thanks as always to our producer-engineer, Francis Ying, and to Stephanie Stapleton, our editor this week. If you enjoyed the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left a review; that helps other people find us, too. Also, as always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org. Or you can find me on LinkedIn. Where are you guys these days? Sandhya?
Raman: I’m on X and Bluesky @SandhyaWrites.
Huetteman: Sarah?
Karlin-Smith: A little bit of everywhere, but X, Bluesky, LinkedIn @SarahKarlin or @sarahkarlin-smith.
Huetteman: And Lauren?
Weber: I’m at X and Bluesky @laurenweberhp. Yes, the HP is for “health policy.”
Huetteman: We’ll be back in your feed next week. Until then, be healthy.
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KFF Health News' 'What the Health?': Here Come the ACA Premium Hikes
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Julie Rovner is chief Washington correspondent and host of KFF Health News’ weekly health policy news podcast, “What the Health?” A noted expert on health policy issues, Julie is the author of the critically praised reference book “Health Care Politics and Policy A to Z,” now in its third edition.
Much of the hubbub in health care this year has been focused on Medicaid, which faces dramatically reduced federal funding as the result of the huge budget bill signed by President Donald Trump earlier this month. But now the attention is turning to the Affordable Care Act, which is facing some big changes that could cost many consumers their health coverage as soon as 2026.
Meanwhile, changes to immigration policy under Trump could have an outsize impact on the nation’s health care system, both by exacerbating shortages of health workers and by eliminating insurance coverage that helps keep some hospitals and clinics afloat.
This week’s panelists are Julie Rovner of KFF Health News, Julie Appleby of KFF Health News, Jessie Hellmann of CQ Roll Call, and Alice Miranda Ollstein of Politico.
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Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:
- Many Americans can expect their health insurance premiums to rise next year, but those rate hikes could be even bigger for the millions who rely on ACA health plans. To afford such plans, most consumers rely on enhanced federal government subsidies, which are set to expire — and GOP lawmakers seem loath to extend them, even though many of their constituents could lose their insurance as a result.
- Congress included a $50 billion fund for rural health care in Trump’s new law, aiming to cushion the blow of Medicaid cuts. But the fund is expected to fall short, especially as many people lose their health insurance and clinics, hospitals, and health systems are left to cover their bills.
- Abortion opponents continue to claim the abortion pill mifepristone is unsafe, more recently by citing a problematic analysis — and some lawmakers are using it to pressure federal officials to take another look at the drug’s approval. Meanwhile, many Planned Parenthood clinics are bracing for an end to federal funding, stripping money not only from busy clinics where abortion is legal but also from clinics that provide only contraception, testing for sexually transmitted infections, and other non-abortion care in states where the procedure is banned.
- And as more states implement laws enabling doctors to opt out of treatments that violate their morals, a pregnant woman in Tennessee says her doctor refused to provide prenatal care, because she is unmarried.
Also this week, Rovner interviews Jonathan Oberlander, a Medicare historian and University of North Carolina health policy professor, to mark Medicare’s 60th anniversary later this month.
Plus, for “extra credit” the panelists suggest health policy stories they read this week that they think you should read, too:
Julie Rovner: KFF Health News’ “Republicans Call Medicaid Rife with Fraudsters. This Man Sees No Choice but To Break the Rules,” by Katheryn Houghton.
Julie Appleby: NPR’s “Many Beauty Products Have Toxic Ingredients. Newly Proposed Bills Could Change That,” by Rachel Treisman.
Jessie Hellmann: Roll Call’s “Kennedy’s Mental Health Drug Skepticism Lands at FDA Panel,” by Ariel Cohen.
Alice Miranda Ollstein: The Associated Press’ “RFK Jr. Promoted a Food Company He Says Will Make Americans Healthy. Their Meals Are Ultraprocessed,” by Amanda Seitz and Jonel Aleccia.
Also mentioned in this week’s podcast:
- KFF Health News’ “Insurers and Customers Brace for Double Whammy to Obamacare Premiums,” by Julie Appleby.
- The Congressional Budget Office’s “Estimated Budgetary Effects of Public Law 119-21, to Provide for Reconciliation Pursuant to Title II of H. Con. Res. 14, Relative to CBO’s January 2025 Baseline.”
- The CBO’s “How Changes to Funding for the NIH and Changes in the FDA’s Review Times Would Affect the Development of New Drugs.”
- KFF’s “KFF Health Tracking Poll: Public Views on Recent Tax and Budget Legislation,” by Grace Sparks, Shannon Schumacher, Julian Montalvo III, Ashley Kirzinger, and Liz Hamel.
- The Washington Post’s “Digging Into the Math of a Study Attacking the Safety of the Abortion Pill,” by Glenn Kessler.
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Transcript: Here Come the ACA Premium Hikes
[Editor’s note: This transcript was generated using both transcription software and a human’s light touch. It has been edited for style and clarity.]
Julie Rovner: Hello, and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Julie Rovner, chief Washington correspondent for KFF Health News, and I’m joined by some of the best and smartest health reporters in Washington. We’re taping this week on Thursday, July 24, at 10 a.m. As always, news happens fast and things might’ve changed by the time you hear this. So, here we go.
Today we are joined via videoconference by Jessie Hellmann of CQ Roll Call.
Jessie Hellmann: Hi there.
Rovner: Alice Miranda Ollstein of Politico.
Alice Miranda Ollstein: Hello.
Rovner: And my KFF Health News colleague Julie Appleby.
Julie Appleby: Hi.
Rovner: Later in this episode we’ll have the first of a two-part series marking the 60th anniversary of Medicare and Medicaid, which is July 30. Medicare historian and University of North Carolina professor Jonathan Oberlander takes us on a brief tour of the history of Medicare. Next week we’ll do the same with Medicaid. But first, this week’s news.
So, we have talked a lot about the changes to Medicaid as a result of the Trump tax and spending law, but there are big changes coming to the Affordable Care Act, too, which is why I have asked my colleague Julie Appleby to join us this week. Julie, what can people who buy insurance from the ACA marketplaces expect for 2026?
Appleby: Well, there’s a lot of changes. Let’s talk about premiums first, OK? So there’s a couple of things going on with premiums. It’s kind of a double whammy. So, on the one hand, insurers are asking for higher premiums next year to cover different things. So in the summer they put out their rates for the following year. So there’s been a lot of uncertainty this year, so that’s playing into it as well. But what they’re asking for is some money for rising medical and labor costs, the usual culprits, drug costs going up, that kind of thing. But they’re tacking on some extra percentages to deal with some of the policy changes advanced by the Trump administration and the Republican-controlled Congress. And one key factor is the uncertainty over whether Congress is going to extend those more generous covid-era tax subsidies. So we’re looking at premiums going up, and the ask right now, what they’re asking for, the median ask, is 15%, which is a lot higher. Last year when KFF did the same survey, it was 7%. So we’re getting premium increase requests of a fairly substantial amount. In fact, they say it’s about the highest in five years.
And then on top of that, it’s still not clear what’s going to happen with those more generous subsidies. And if the more generous subsidies go away, if Congress does not reinstate them, there’ll be costs from that, and people could be paying maybe 75% more than they’re paying this year. And we could talk some more about that. But that’s kind of the double whammy we’re looking at, rising premiums and the potential that these more generous subsidies won’t be extended by Congress.
Rovner: So there were some things that were specifically in that tax and spending bill that drive up premiums for the ACA, right? Besides not extending the additional subsidies.
Appleby: Well, that’s the biggest piece of it, but yes. They’re tacking on about 4% of that 15% medium increase is related to the uncertainty. Well, they’re assuming that the tax credits will expire. It was not in the bill. Congress could still act. They have until the end of the year. They could extend those subsidies. So that’s about 4%. But one of the things that people haven’t really been talking about are tariffs, and some of the insurers are asking for 3% because they expect drug costs to go up. So there’s those things that are going on. And then there’s just sort of the uncertainty going forward for insurers about what’s going to happen with enrollment as a result of both these premium increases, and then looking a little bit further down the line, there are some changes in the tax and spending bill and some rules that are going to substantially reduce enrollment.
So insurers are worried that the people who are going to sign up for coverage are the ones who are most motivated, and those are probably going to be the people who have some health problems. And the folks who aren’t as motivated are going to look at the prices and maybe the additional red tape and will drop out and leave them with a sicker and more expensive pool to cover. So all of that is factoring in with these premium rate increases that they’re trying to put together. Now remember, a lot of these insurers put in these premium increase requests before they knew the outcome of the tax and spending legislation. They could still modify them.
Rovner: And Jessie, as Julie said, there’s still a chance that Republicans will change their minds on the increased subsidies and tack them onto something. And there’s a big bipartisan health bill on drug prices and other expiring programs that still could get done before the end of the year? Yes?
Hellmann: There have been discussions about a bipartisan health bill, though the main author of it, Sen. Bill Cassidy, himself even seems kind of skeptical. I talked to him this week, and he’s like, It might happen, it might not. But there are a bunch of other health extenders that Congress will need to get to, like telehealth, some Medicare and Medicaid payment things. So there’s definitely something to attach it to. Republicans are not friendly to the ACA. As you mentioned, they made a bunch of changes to it in this tax and spending bill. So I think the people I talk to think it’s a long shot that they’re going to pass billions of dollars in a subsidy extension in this bill. Though there are Republicans who do care about this issue, like Sen. Lisa Murkowski of Alaska. She’s kind of been sounding the alarm on this. She thinks that Congress needs to do something to mitigate which could be very big premium increases for people. So there is some pressure there, but it doesn’t seem like the people who should be thinking about this right now have started thinking about it much yet.
Rovner: One presumes they’ll start thinking about it when they start seeing these actual premium increases. I sound like a broken record, but we keep saying, the people who these premium increases are going to hit the hardest are voters in red states.
Appleby: Last year, in 2024, 56% of ACA enrollees lived in Republican congressional districts and 76% were in states won by President [Donald] Trump. So I’ve got to think they’re thinking about it. When I did the reporting on this story, I spoke with a couple of folks, and they said that some people in Congress are looking at maybe they can mess around or maybe they can do something with the subsidies that’s not keeping them as they are but might deal with a piece of it. For example, there is something called a subsidy cliff. So if you make more than 400% of the federal poverty level, you used to not get any subsidies. That would come back if they don’t extend this. And so 400% of the federal poverty level, you make a dollar more, you don’t get a subsidy. So this year — and this year will be the numbers that next year’s rates are based on — $62,600 for one person is 400% of the federal poverty level and $84,600 for a couple. So people are going to start getting, if they don’t extend the tax credits, they’re going to start getting notification about how much they owe for premiums next year.
And this is going to be one of the first effects that people are going to see from all these changes in Washington, the tax and spending bill and the other things, when they get these premiums for January. And if they make even a dollar over that, they’re not going to get any subsidy at all. So what I’m told by some of my sources is that maybe they’re thinking about raising that cliff, maybe keeping the cliff but maybe moving it up a little bit to 500% or 600%. But it’s totally unclear. Like you all are saying, nothing may happen. We may go through Dec. 31 and nothing happens, but I’m hearing that they are maybe talking a little bit about that.
Rovner: Alice.
Ollstein: Yeah. And there’s a couple interesting dynamics that I think could influence the politics of this and what Congress feels motivated to do or not do. So, like Julie was saying, this would hit in January. And a lot of the stuff in the bill they just passed is designed to not hit until the midterms, but this would hit before the midterms. And so that’s got to be on their minds. And then, like you were saying, not only would this hit Republican voters the hardest, but a reason that’s more true today than it was the last time they took a round at the Affordable Care Act in 2017 is because all of these red states have expanded since then. You have a lot more enrollment, even in states that didn’t expand, and so, like we mentioned, are going to have a lot of Republican voters who get hit and have this sticker shock. And the party in power in Congress and the White House could be to blame.
Rovner: Yeah. One of the things in 2017, there were, what, 12 million people who were buying coverage on the marketplaces. And now there’s 24 million people who are buying coverage on the marketplaces. So it’s a lot more people, just plain, in addition to a lot more people who are likely in some of these red states. So we will follow this closely.
Meanwhile, the fallout continues as people find out more about the new tax and spending law. The Congressional Budget Office is out with its final numbers on the bill as enacted. It’s now estimating that 10 million more people will be uninsured in 2034 as a result of the new law. That’s down from the 11.8 million estimate of the original Senate bill. That’s because the parliamentarian bounced the provisions that would’ve punished states using their own money to cover undocumented people. That was not allowed to be considered under the reconciliation procedure.
We also have a brand-new poll from my colleagues here at KFF that find that more people know about the law than did before it passed, and it’s still unpopular. We’ll post a link to those numbers so you can see just how unpopular it is. As we’ve discussed, lots of Republican senators and House members expressed concern about the impact the Medicaid cuts could have on rural hospitals in particular. So much so that a $50 billion fund was eventually added to the bill to offset roughly $155 billion in rural Medicaid cuts. Even more confusing, that $50 billion is likely to be distributed before some of the cuts begin — as you were just saying, Alice — and not necessarily to just rural areas. So is this $50 billion fund really just a big lobbying bonanza?
Ollstein: Well, it’s certainly designed to function as softening the blow. But these are different things. The hospital could be propped up and stay open, but if no one has Medicaid to go there, that’s still a problem. And the money is sort of acknowledging that a bunch of people are going to lose their coverage, because it’s meant to give the hospital something to use for uncompensated care for people who have no coverage and come to the ER. But that still means that people who lost their insurance because of other provisions in the bill, they might not be going to their preventive care appointments that would avoid them having to go to the emergency room in the first place, which costs all of us more in the long run. So there’s a lot of skepticism about the efficacy of this.
Rovner: Jessie, are you seeing the lobbying already begin for who’s going to get this $50 billion?
Hellmann: Yeah, because the legislation leaves a lot of how the money will be handed out to the HHS [Department of Health and Human Services] secretary, and so that’s something that they’re going to start thinking about. It reminds me a lot of the provider relief fund that was set up during covid. And that didn’t go very well. There were lots of complaints that providers were getting the funding that didn’t need the funding, and the small safety net hospitals weren’t getting enough of the funding. So I’m wondering if they’re going to revisit how that went and try to learn any lessons from it. And then at the same time, like Alice said, this just isn’t a lot of money. It’s not going to offset some of the pain to rural providers that the bill has caused.
Rovner: Yeah. Well, another piece that we will be watching. Meanwhile, the cuts to SNAP [Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program] food benefits conflict with another stated goal of this administration, improving health by getting people to eat healthier food. Except, as we know, healthier food is often more expensive. Other than not letting people buy soda and candy with their SNAP cards, has the administration tried to address this contradiction at all? I’m seeing a lot of blank stares. I’m assuming that the answer to that is no. We’re hearing so much about food and unhealthy food, and we’re getting rid of seed oils and we’re getting rid of dyes, but at the same time, it’s the biggest cut ever to nutrition assistance, and yet nobody’s really talking about it, right?
Appleby: Sounds like, I think, the states are really worried, obviously, because they’re going to have to make up the difference if they can. And so what other programs are they going to cut? So I’m sure they are talking with folks in Congress, but I don’t know how much leverage they’re going to have. Do you guys have any idea whether the states, is there anything else that they can do to try to get some of this funding?
Rovner: There’s no — I’ve seen no indication. As we said, there’s already some buyer’s remorse on the health side. Last week we talked about [Sen.] Josh Hawley introducing legislation to restore some of the Medicaid cuts that he just voted for, but I haven’t seen anybody talking about restoring any of these nutrition assistance cuts or any of the other cuts, right?
Appleby: Right. And from what I’ve read, the SNAP cuts won’t fully take effect until after the midterm elections. So maybe we’re just not hearing about it as much because it hasn’t really hit home yet. People are still trying to figure out: What does all this mean?
Rovner: Well, one thing that has hit home yet, I’ve wanted for a while to highlight what some of the changes to immigration policy are going to mean for health care. It’s not just ending legal status for people who came and have lived in the U.S. legally for years, or reinterpreting, again, the 1996 welfare law to declare ineligible for Medicaid and other programs many legal immigrants who are not yet permanent residents but who have been getting benefits because they had been made legally eligible for them by Congress and the president. One of the big changes to policy came to light last week when it was revealed that immigration officials are now being given access to Medicaid enrollment information, including people’s physical addresses. Why is this such a big deal? Alice, you’ve been following this whole immigration and health care issue, right?
Ollstein: Yes. Experts are warning that this is very dangerous from a public health perspective. If you deter people from physically wanting to visit a clinic or a doctor out of fear of ICE [Immigration and Customs Enforcement] enforcement there, which we’ve already seen — we’ve already seen ICE try to barge into hospitals and seize people. And so fear of that is keeping people away from their appointments. That makes it harder to manage chronic illnesses. That makes it harder to manage infectious diseases, which obviously impacts the whole community and the whole society. We all bear those costs. We live in an interconnected world. What impacts part of the population impacts the rest of the population.
And so what you mentioned about the Medicaid data, as well, deters people who are perfectly eligible, who are not undocumented, who have legal status, who are eligible for Medicaid. It deters them from enrolling, which again deters people from using that health care and keeping their conditions in check. And so there’s a lot of concern about how this could play out and how long the effect could last, because there are studies showing that policies from the first Trump administration were still deterring immigrants from enrolling even after they were lifted by the Biden administration.
Rovner: And we should point out that this whole address thing is a big issue because, as you say, there, maybe, there are a lot of families where there are people who live there who are perfectly, as you say, perfectly eligible. You’re not eligible for Medicaid if you’re not here legally. But they may live in a family, in a household with people who are not here with documentation, and they’re afraid now that if they have their addresses, that ICE is going to come knocking at their door to get, if not them, then their relatives or people who are staying with them.
Appleby: Yeah. And I think it’s also affecting employment. So nursing homes are already saying that they’re losing some people who are losing their protected status or this or that. So they’re losing employees. Some of them are reporting, from what I’ve read, that they are getting fewer applicants for jobs. This is going to make it even tougher. Many of them already have staffing issues, and the nursing home industry has said, Hey, how come we’re not getting any special consideration? Like maybe some of the farmers or other places are supposedly getting, but I don’t know if that’s actually happening. But why aren’t they being considered and why are they losing some of their workers who are here under protected status, which they’re going to lose? And some of them may also be undocumented — I don’t know. But that’s just the nursing homes. Think of all the people around the country who need help in their homes, and maybe they’re taking care of elderly parents and they hire people, and some of those people may not be documented. And that’s a vast number of folks that we’re never going to hear about, but if they start losing their caregivers as well, I think that’s going to be a big impact as we go forward.
Rovner: And it’s also skilled health workers who are here on visas who are immigrants.
Appleby: Right.
Rovner: In rural areas in particular, doctors and nurses are usually people who have been recruited from other countries because there are not enough people or not health professionals living in those rural areas. The knock-on effect of this, I think, is bigger than anybody has really sort of looked at yet.
Ollstein: Absolutely. States have even been debating and in some cases passing legislation to make it easier for foreign medical workers to come practice here, making it so that they don’t have to redo their residency if they already did their residency somewhere abroad, things like that, because there’s such shortages right now, especially in primary care and maternal care and a lot of different areas.
Rovner: Yeah. This is another area that I think we’re only just beginning to see the impact of. Well, there is also news this week in Trump administration cuts that are not from the budget bill. In a report from the Congressional Budget Office that’s separate from the latest budget reconciliation estimate, analysts said that the Trump administration’s proposed cuts to the budgets of the National Institutes of Health and the Food and Drug Administration could reduce the number of new drugs coming to market. That would not only mean fewer new treatments and cures but also a hit to the economy. And apparently it doesn’t even take into account the uncertainty that’s making many researchers consider offers to decamp to Canada or Europe or other countries. There’s a real multiplier effect here on what’s a big part of U.S. innovation.
Hellmann: I’ve been talking to people on the Hill about this who traditionally have been big supporters of the NIH and authorizing and appropriating increases for the NIH every year. And they are still kind of playing a little coy. The White House is suggesting a budget cut at the NIH of 40%, which would be massive. It’s so massive that the CBO report was like: We cannot estimate the impact of this. We’re going to estimate a smaller hypothetical. Because they just can’t.
And so I think it’ll be interesting to see how it plays out in the appropriations process. You do have senators who are more publicly concerned about it, like Sen. Susan Collins of Maine, who obviously is on the Appropriations Committee. So we might see a situation where Congress ignores the budget request. That usually happens, but these are weird times. And so I think there are questions about, even if they do, if Congress does proceed as normal and appropriate the money that they typically do for NIH, what is the administration going to do with it? They’ve already signaled that they’re fine not spending money that has been appropriated by Congress. And so I think that there’s a big question about that.
Rovner: At some point, this has to come to a head. We’ve been — as I say, I feel like a broken record on this. We talk about it a lot, that this is money that’s been appropriated by Congress and signed by the president and that we keep hearing that people, particularly at NIH, are not being allowed, for one reason or another, to send out. This is technically illegal impoundment. And at some point it comes to a head. We know that Russ Vought, the head of the Office of Management Budget, thinks that the anti-impoundment law is illegal and that he can just ignore it. And that’s a lot of what’s happening right now. I’m still surprised that it’s the end of July and Congress is going out for the August recess — and Jessie, I know you’re talking to people and they’re playing coy — that they haven’t jumped up and down yet. The NIH in particular has been such a bipartisanly supported entity. If you’ve ever been around the campus in Bethesda, all of the buildings are named after various appropriators of both parties. This is something that is really dear to Congress, and yet they are just basically sitting there holding their tongues. At some point, won’t it stop?
Hellmann: I think maybe they’re hoping to say something through whatever legislation that they come out with, whatever spending legislation. But, yeah, they’re not being very forceful about it. And I think people are obviously just very afraid of making the Trump administration angry. Lisa Murkowski of Alaska has said this, like she kind of fears the repercussions of making the president mad. And he’s on this spending-cut spree. So I definitely expected more anger, especially the bipartisan history of the NIH has lasted so long. It’s kind of a weird thing to see happen.
Rovner: Yeah. Of all the things that I didn’t expect to see happen this year, that has to be the thing that I most didn’t expect to see happen this year, which was basically an administration just stopping funding research and Congress basically sitting back and letting it happen. It is still sort of boggling to my mind. Well, we also learned this week about hospitals stopping gender-affirming care of all kinds for minors, under increasing pressure from the administration. And we’re not just talking about red states anymore. Children’s hospitals in California and here in Washington, D.C., have now announced they won’t be offering the care anymore. Wasn’t it just a few months ago when people were moving from red states to blue states to get their kids care? Now what are they going to be able to do?
Ollstein: I think a lot of what we’re seeing play out in the gender-affirming care fight, it reminds me of the abortion rights fight. There are a lot of themes about the formal health care system being very, very risk-averse. And so rather than test the limits of the law, rather than continuing to provide services while things are still pingponging back and forth in courts, which is the case, they’re saying, just out of caution, We’re just going to stop altogether. And that is cutting off a lot of families from care that they were relying on. And there’s a lot of concern about the physical and mental health impacts on — again, this is very small compared to the general population of trans kids — but it’s going to hit a lot of people. And yeah, like you said, this is happening in blue states as well. There’s sort of nowhere for them to go.
Rovner: Yeah. We’re going to see how this one also plays out. Well, turning to abortion, we talked last week about how a federal appeals court upheld a West Virginia law aimed at banning the abortion pill mifepristone. And I wondered why we weren’t hearing more from the drug industry about the dangers of state-by-state undermining of the FDA. And lo and behold, here come the drugmakers. In comments letters to the FDA, more than 50 biotech leaders and investors are urging the agency to disregard a controversial study from the anti-abortion think tank the Ethics and Public Policy Center that officials are citing as a reason to reopen consideration of the drug’s approval. Alice, remind us what this study is and why people are so upset about it.
Ollstein: So it’s not a study, first of all. Even its supporters in the anti-abortion movement admitted, in private in a Zoom meeting that I obtained access to, that it is not a study. This is an analysis that they created. They are not disclosing the dataset that it is based on. It did not go through peer review. And so they are citing their own sort of white-paper analysis put out by an explicitly anti-abortion think tank to argue that abortion pills are more dangerous than previously known or that the FDA has previously acknowledged. There’s been a lot of fact checks and debunks of some of their main points that we’ve been through on this podcast also before. The Washington Post did an in-depth fact check if people want to look that up. But suffice it to say that that has not deterred members of Congress from citing this and to pressure the FDA.
And now you have the FDA sort of promising to do a review. If you look at the exact wording of what [FDA Commissioner Marty] Makary said, I’m not sure. He said something like, Like we monitor the safety of all drugs, we’re going to blah, blah, blah. And so it’s unclear if there’s anything specific going on. But the threat that there could be, like you said, is really shaking up the drugmaking industry. And you’re hearing a lot of the same alarms that we heard from the pharmaceutical industry when this was before the Supreme Court, when they were afraid the Supreme Court would second-guess the FDA’s judgment and reimpose restrictions on mifepristone. And they’re saying, Look, if we can’t count on this being a process that just takes place based on the science and not politics and not courts coming in 25 years later and saying actually no, then why would we invest so much money in developing drugs if we can’t even count on the rules being fair and staying the same?
Rovner: Yeah. We will see how this goes. I was surprised, though. We know that that Texas case that the Supreme Court managed to not reach the point of, because the plaintiffs didn’t have standing, is still alive elsewhere. But I didn’t realize that this other case was still sort of chugging along. So we’ll see when the Supreme Court gets another bite at it. Meanwhile, the fight over funding for Planned Parenthood — whose Medicaid eligibility, at least for one year, was canceled by the new budget law — continues in court. This week a judge in Massachusetts gave the group a partial win by blocking the defunding for some smaller clinics and those that don’t perform abortions, but that ruling replaced a more blanket delay on the defunding. So many clinics are now having their funding stopped while the court fight continues. Alice, what’s the impact here of these Planned Parenthood clinics closing down? It’s not just abortion that we’re talking about. In fact, it’s not even primarily abortion that we’re talking about.
Ollstein: Absolutely. So this is one, it’s set to hit a lot of clinics in states where abortion is legal. And so these are the clinics that are serving a lot of people traveling from red states. And so there’s already an issue with wait times, and this is set to make it worse. But that’s just for abortion. Like you said, this is also set to hit a bunch of clinics in states where abortion is illegal and where these clinics are only providing other services, like birth control, like STI [sexually transmitted infection] testing. And at the same time we’re having a lot of other funding frozen, and so this could really be tough for some of these areas where there aren’t a lot of providers, and especially there are not a lot of providers who accept Medicaid.
Rovner: Meanwhile, a number of states are passing conscience laws that let health professionals opt out of things like doing abortions or providing gender-affirming care if they violate their beliefs. Well, in Tennessee now we have a story of a pregnant woman who says her doctor refused to provide her with prenatal care, because she’s not married to her partner of 15 years. She said at a congressional town hall that her doctor said her marital status violated his Christian beliefs, and he’s apparently protected by the new Tennessee state law called the Medical Ethics Defense Act. I’ve heard of doctors refusing to prescribe birth control for unmarried women, but this is a new one to me, and I’ve been doing this for a very long time. Are these just unintended consequences of these things that maybe state lawmakers didn’t think a lot about? Or are they OK with doctors saying, We’re not going to provide you with prenatal care if you’re pregnant and not married?
Ollstein: So one, as we just said, we’re in a situation where there is such a shortage of providers and such a shortage of providers who accept certain coverage that being turned away by one place, you might not be able to get an appointment somewhere else, depending where you live. And so this isn’t just an issue of, Oh, well, just don’t go to that doctor who believes that. People have very limited choices in a lot of circumstances. But I—
Rovner: Apparently this woman in Tennessee said she’s having to go to Virginia to get her prenatal care.
Ollstein: Well, exactly. Yeah. Exactly. This isn’t like people have tons of options. And also this is an example of a slippery slope, of if you allow people to be able to refuse service for this reason, for that reason, what else could happen? And some states have more legal protections for things like marital status, and some do not. And so it’s worth thinking through what could be sort of the next wave.
Rovner: Well, we’re certainly going to see what the outcome of this could be. Well, before we end our news segment this week, I want to give a shoutout to tennis legend Venus Williams, who at age 45 won a singles match at a professional tournament here in Washington this week and said in her post-match interview that she came back to playing because she needed the pro tour’s health insurance to take care of several chronic conditions that she has. So see, even rich athletes need their health insurance. All right. That is this week’s news. Now we will play my interview with Medicare historian Jonathan Oberlander, and then we will come back and do our extra credits.
I am so pleased to welcome Jonathan Oberlander to the podcast. He’s a professor of social medicine, professor of health policy and management, and adjunct professor of political science at the University of North Carolina School of Medicine in Chapel Hill and one of the nation’s leading experts on Medicare. Jon, welcome to “What the Health?”
Jonathan Oberlander: Great to see you, Julie.
Rovner: So Medicare, to me at least, remains the greatest paradox in the paradox that is the U.S. health care system. It is at once both so popular and so untouchable that it’s considered the third rail of politics, yet at its core it’s a painfully out-of-date and meager benefit that nevertheless threatens to go bankrupt on a regular basis. How did we get here?
Oberlander: Wow. So let’s talk about the benefits for a minute. And I think one of the things we can say about Medicare in 2025 as we mark this 60th anniversary is it still bears the imprint of Medicare in 1965. And when Medicare was designed as a program — and the idea really dates back to the early 1950s — it was not seen as a comprehensive benefit. It was intended to pay for the most consequential costs of medical care, for acute care costs. And so when it was enacted in 1965, the benefits were incomplete. And the problem is, as you know very well, they haven’t been added to all that much. And here we have a population, and all of us know as we get older, we generally don’t get healthier. I wish it was true, but it’s not. Older persons deal with all kinds of complex medical issues and have a lot of medical needs, and yet Medicare’s benefits are very limited, so limited that actually a very small percentage of Medicare beneficiaries have only Medicare. Most Medicare beneficiaries have Medicare plus something else. And that may be an individual private plan that they purchase called a Medigap plan, or maybe a declining number of people have retiree health insurance that supplements Medicare.
Some low-income Medicare beneficiaries have Medicaid as well as Medicare and they are dual-eligible. Some Medicare beneficiaries have extra benefits through the Medicare Advantage program, which I’m sure—
Rovner: We’ll get to.
Oberlander: —we’ll have a lot to say. So the bottom line, though, is Medicare has grown. It has, what, about 70 million Americans rely on Medicare. But the benefit package — with some intermittent exceptions that are significant, such as the addition of outpatient prescription drugs in 2006 — really has not kept pace.
Rovner: So let’s go back to the beginning. What was the problem that Medicare set out to solve?
Oberlander: Well, it was both a substantive problem and a political problem. The origins of Medicare are in the ashes, the failure, of the Truman administration proposals for national health insurance during the mid- and late 1940s. And after they had lost repeatedly, health reformers decided they needed a new strategy. So instead of national health insurance, what today we would call a single-payer, federal-government-run program for everybody, they trimmed their ambitions down to, initially, just hospital insurance, 60 days of hospital insurance for elderly Social Security beneficiaries. And that was it. And they thought if they just focused on older Americans, maybe they would tamp down the controversy and the opposition and the American Medical Association and charges of socialized medicine, all things that are really throwing a wrench into plans for national health insurance. It didn’t quite work out as they thought. It took about 14 years from the time Medicare was proposed to enact it. And there was a big, divisive, controversial debate about Medicare’s enactment. But it was fundamentally a solution to that political problem of, how do you enact government health insurance in the United States? You pick a more sympathetic population.
Now, there was a substantive problem, which was in the 1940s and especially 1950s, private health insurance was growing in the United States for Americans who are working-age, and that growth of employer-sponsored health insurance really left out retirees. They were expensive. Commercial insurers didn’t want to cover them. And the uninsured rate, if you can believe it, for people over age 65, before Medicare, was around 50%. Not 15 but five zero, 50%. And so here you had a population that had more medical needs, was more expensive, and they had less access to health insurance than younger people. And Medicare was created in part to end that disparity and give them access to reliable coverage.
Rovner: So as you mentioned, Medicare was initially just aimed at elderly Social Security recipients. What were some of the biggest benefit and population changes as the years went by?
Oberlander: So in terms of populations in 1972, Medicare added coverage for persons who have end-stage renal disease, so people who need dialysis no matter what the age. It’s a lifesaving technology. They can qualify for Medicare. It didn’t really make sense to add it to Medicare — it’s just it was there. So they added it to Medicare. And also a population we don’t talk nearly enough about, younger Americans with permanent disabilities who are recipients of Social Security Disability Insurance. For a couple of years they qualify for Medicare as well and are a very important part in the Medicare population. Beyond that, Medicare’s covered population has not really changed all that much since the beginning, which actually would be a great disappointment to the architects of Medicare, who thought the program would expand to eventually cover everybody.
In terms of benefits, the benefit package has been remarkably stable, for better and actually probably for worse, with the exception of, for example, the addition of outpatient prescription drug coverage, which came online in 2006, the addition of coverage for various preventive services such as mammography and cancer screenings. But Medicare still does not cover long-term stays in nursing homes. Many Americans think it does. They will be disappointed to find out it does not. Medicare does not cover, generally, hearing or vision or dental services. Traditional Medicare run by the government does not have a cap on the amount of money that beneficiaries can spend in a year on deductibles and copayments and so forth. So really its benefits remain quite limited.
Rovner: So Medicare is also the biggest payer in the nation’s health care system and for decades set the standard in how private insurance covered and paid for health care. So let’s talk about privatization. Medicare Advantage, the private health plan alternative to traditional Medicare, is now more than half the program, both in terms of people and in terms of budget. Is this the future of Medicare? Or will we look back in many years and see it as kind of a temporary diversion?
Oberlander: I think it’s the present and probably the future. The future is always so hard to predict, Julie, because it’s unwritten. But this is really a shocking outcome historically, because what Medicare’s architects expected was that the program was going to expand government health insurance to all Americans, first with the older population, then adding children, then adding everybody. Did not turn out that way. The original aspiration was Medicare for all, through any incremental means. Instead, 60 years later, we don’t have Medicare for all, but Medicare is mostly privatized. It’s a hybrid program with a public and private component that increasingly is dominated by private insurance. And the fact that over half of Medicare beneficiaries are enrolled in these private plans is a stunning development historically, by the way with lots of implications politically, because that’s an important new political force in Medicare that you have these large private plans and it’s changed Medicare politics.
I don’t think Medicare Advantage is going anywhere. I think the question is, how big is it going to get? And I’m not sure any of us know. It’s been on a growth trajectory for a long time. And the question is — given that all the studies show that Medicare Advantage plans are overpaid, and overpaid by a lot, by the federal government, and it’s losing a lot of money on Medicare Advantage, and it’s never saved money — is there going to come a point where they actually clamp down? There’ve been some incremental efforts to try and restrain payments. Really haven’t had much effect. Are we actually going to get to a place where the federal government says: We need savings, yeah. This 22% extra that you’re getting, no, we can’t do that anymore. So I think it’s an open question about, how big is it going to get? Is it going to be two-thirds of the Medicare program, three-quarters of the Medicare program? And if so, then what is the future, turning the question on its head, of traditional Medicare if it’s that small? And that’s one of the great questions about Medicare in the next decade or two.
Rovner: Thank you so much.
Oberlander: Oh, thanks for having me. It was great to see you.
Rovner: OK, we’re back. And now it’s time for our extra-credit segment. That’s where we each recognize a story we read this week we think you should read, too. Don’t worry if you miss it. We will put the links in our show notes on your phone or other mobile devices. Julie, why don’t you go first this week?
Appleby: Yeah. I found this story on NPR quite interesting. It’s maybe something that a lot of us have thought about, but it just added a lot of numbers to the question of how many chemicals are in our beauty products — basically, the makeup we use, the lotions, our hairspray, the stuff that happens at the salon, that kind of thing. And it’s called “Many Beauty Products Have Toxic Ingredients. Newly Proposed Bills Could Change That.” And it was written by Rachel Treisman. Basically it says that the average American adult uses about 12 personal care products a day, resulting in exposure to about 168 chemicals, which can include things like formaldehyde, mercury, asbestos, etc., etc. OK, so that’s interesting. But it also talks about how the European Union has banned more than 2,000 chemicals, basically, but the FDA puts limits on only about a dozen.
So this has caused four Democratic lawmakers to introduce a package of legislation, actually they’re calling the Safer Beauty Bill Package, and it’s four bills. And basically one of them would ban two entire classes of chemicals, phthalates and formaldehyde-releasing chemicals. And it also calls for some other things as well, which they say hasn’t been done and needs to be looked at. So I just thought it was an interesting thing that pulled together a lot of data from various sources and talked about this package of bills and whether or not it might make a difference in terms of looking at some of these chemicals in the products we use all the time and requiring a little bit more transparency about that. It’s a step. I don’t know if it’s going to resolve everybody’s concerns about this, but I just thought it was an interesting little piece looking at that topic.
Rovner: It’s worth remembering that the FDA’s governing statute is actually called the Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act.
Appleby: That’s right.
Rovner: The cosmetics often gets very short shrift in that whole thing. Alice, why don’t you go next?
Ollstein: Yeah. So I have a piece from The Associated Press. It’s called “RFK Jr. Promoted a Food Company He Says Will Make Americans Healthy. Their Meals are Ultraprocessed.” And so this really gets at something we’ve been talking about on the podcast, where the administration is really fixated on a few kind of superficial food health things like colored dyes in food and frying something in beef tallow instead of vegetable oil. But something fried in beef tallow is still unhealthy. Froot Loops without the color dye are still unhealthy. And these meals that he is promoting as a service for Medicare and Medicaid enrollees are unhealthy. So this article is about how they do have chemical additives, they are high in sodium and sugar and saturated fats, and so it’s not in sort of keeping with the overall MAHA [Make America Healthy Again] message. But in a way it kind of is.
Rovner: From the oops file. Jessie.
Hellmann: My extra credit is from my colleague Ariel Cohen at Roll Call. It’s called “Kennedy’s Mental Health Drug Skepticism Lands at FDA Panel.” She did a story about something that kind of, I think, flew under the radar this week. The Trump administration is starting to make good on its promise to look at SSRIs [selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors], and the panel was very much full of skeptics of SSRIs who sought to undermine the confidence in using them while pregnant. And Marty Makary himself, FDA commissioner, claimed it could cause birth defects and other fetal harm. That was a statement that was echoed by many of the panelists. There was only one panelist who talked about the benefits of SSRIs in pregnant people who need them, the risks of postpartum depression to both the mom and the baby. And so I think this is definitely something to keep an eye on, is it looks like they’re going to keep looking more at this and raising questions about SSRIs without having much of a nuanced conversation about it.
Rovner: Yeah. I did see something from ACOG, from the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, this week pushing back very hard on the anti-SSRI-during-pregnancy push. So we’ll see how that one goes, too. My extra credit this week is from my KFF Health News colleague Katheryn Houghton, and it’s called “Republicans Call Medicaid Rife With Fraudsters. This Man Sees No Choice but To Break the Rules.” And it’s about something that didn’t really come up during the whole Medicaid debate, the fact that if Republicans really want people to go to work, well, then maybe they shouldn’t take away their health insurance if they get a small raise or a few extra hours. The subject of this story, only identified as James, technically makes about $50 a week too much to stay on Medicaid, but he otherwise can’t afford his six prescription medications and he can’t afford the care that he needs through even a subsidized Affordable Care Act plan, or his employer’s plan, either.
The point of the ACA was to make coverage seamless so that as you earn more, you can still afford coverage even if you’re not on Medicaid anymore. But obviously that isn’t happening for everyone. Quoting from the story: “‘I don’t want to be a fraud. I don’t want to die,’ James said. ‘Those shouldn’t be the only two options.’” Yet for a lot of people they are. It’s not great, and it’s not something that’s currently being addressed by policymakers.
OK. That is this week’s show. Thanks as always to our editor, Emmarie Huetteman, and our producer-engineer, Francis Ying. If you enjoy the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left us a review. That helps other people find us, too. As always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org. Or you can find me still on X, @jrovner, or on Bluesky, @julierovner. Where are you folks hanging on social media these days? Jessie?
Hellmann: I’m @jessiehellmann on Twitter and Bluesky.
Rovner: Alice.
Ollstein: @AliceOllstein on X and @alicemiranda on Bluesky.
Rovner: Julie.
Appleby: @julie_appleby on X.
Rovner: We will be back in your feed next week. Until then, be healthy.
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KFF Health News' 'What the Health?': The Senate Saves PEPFAR Funding — For Now
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Julie Rovner
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Julie Rovner is chief Washington correspondent and host of KFF Health News’ weekly health policy news podcast, “What the Health?” A noted expert on health policy issues, Julie is the author of the critically praised reference book “Health Care Politics and Policy A to Z,” now in its third edition.
The Senate has passed — and sent back to the House — a bill that would allow the Trump administration to claw back some $9 billion in previously approved funding for foreign aid and public broadcasting. But first, senators removed from the bill a request to cut funding for the President’s Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief, President George W. Bush’s international AIDS/HIV program. The House has until Friday to approve the bill, or else the funding remains in place.
Meanwhile, a federal appeals court has ruled that West Virginia can ban the abortion pill mifepristone despite its approval by the Food and Drug Administration. If the ruling is upheld by the Supreme Court, it could allow states to limit access to other FDA-approved drugs.
This week’s panelists are Julie Rovner of KFF Health News, Joanne Kenen of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico Magazine, Shefali Luthra of The 19th, and Sandhya Raman of CQ Roll Call.
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Joanne Kenen
Johns Hopkins University and Politico
Shefali Luthra
The 19th
Sandhya Raman
CQ Roll Call
Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:
- The Senate approved the Trump administration’s cuts to foreign aid and public broadcasting, a remarkable yielding of congressional spending power to the president. Before the vote, Senate GOP leaders removed President Donald Trump’s request to cut PEPFAR, sparing the funding for that global health effort, which has support from both parties.
- Next Congress will need to pass annual appropriations bills to keep the government funded, but that is expected to be a bigger challenge than the recent spending fights. Appropriations bills need 60 votes to pass in the Senate, meaning Republican leaders will have to make bipartisan compromises. House leaders are already delaying health spending bills until the fall, saying they need more time to work out deals — and those bills tend to attract culture-war issues that make it difficult to negotiate across the aisle.
- The Trump administration is planning to destroy — rather than distribute — food, medical supplies, contraceptives, and other items intended for foreign aid. The plan follows the removal of workers and dismantling of aid infrastructure around the world, but the waste of needed goods the U.S. government has already purchased is expected to further erode global trust.
- And soon after the passage of Trump’s tax and spending law, at least one Republican is proposing to reverse the cuts the party approved to health programs — specifically Medicaid. It’s hardly the first time lawmakers have tried to change course on their own policies, though time will tell whether it’s enough to mitigate any political (or actual) damage from the law.
Plus, for “extra credit” the panelists suggest health policy stories they read this week that they think you should read, too:
Julie Rovner: The New York Times’ “UnitedHealth’s Campaign to Quiet Critics,” by David Enrich.
Joanne Kenen: The New Yorker’s “Can A.I. Find Cures for Untreatable Diseases — Using Drugs We Already Have?” by Dhruv Khullar.
Shefali Luthra: The New York Times’ “Trump Official Accused PEPFAR of Funding Abortions in Russia. It Wasn’t True,” by Apoorva Mandavilli.
Sandhya Raman: The Nation’s “‘We’re Creating Miscarriages With Medicine’: Abortion Lessons from Sweden,” by Cecilia Nowell.
Also mentioned in this week’s podcast:
- The Atlantic’s “The Trump Administration Is About To Incinerate 500 Tons of Emergency Food,” by Hana Kiros.
- KFF Health News’ “Vested Interests. Influence Muscle. At RFK Jr.’s HHS, It’s Not Pharma. It’s Wellness,” by Stephanie Armour.
- The Washington Post’s “A Clinic Blames Its Closing on Trump’s Medicaid Cuts. Patients Don’t Buy It,” by Hannah Knowles.
Click to open the transcript
Transcript: The Senate Saves PEPFAR Funding — For Now
[Editor’s note: This transcript was generated using both transcription software and a human’s light touch. It has been edited for style and clarity.]
Julie Rovner: Hello and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Julie Rovner, chief Washington correspondent for KFF Health News, and I’m joined by some of the best and smartest health reporters in Washington. We’re taping this week on Thursday, July 17, at 10 a.m. As always, news happens fast and things might have changed by the time you hear this. So, here we go.
Today we are joined via videoconference by Sandhya Raman of CQ Roll Call.
Sandhya Raman: Hello, everyone.
Rovner: Shefali Luthra of The 19th.
Shefali Luthra: Hello.
Rovner: And Joanne Kenen of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico Magazine.
Joanne Kenen: Hi, everybody.
Rovner: No interview this week, but more than enough news. So we will get right to it.
We’re going to start on Capitol Hill, where in the very wee hours of Thursday morning, the Senate approved the $9 billion package of rescissions of money already appropriated. It was largely for foreign aid and the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, which oversees NPR and PBS. Now, this bill represents pennies compared to the entire federal budget and even to the total of dollars that are appropriated every year, but it’s still a big deal because it’s basically Congress ceding more of its spending power back to the president. And even this small package was controversial. Before even bringing it to the floor, senators took out the rescission of funds for PEPFAR [the President’s Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief], the bipartisanly popular international AIDS/HIV program begun under President George W. Bush. So now it has to go back to the House, and the clock on this whole process runs out on Friday. Sandhya, what’s likely to happen next?
Raman: I think that the House has been more amenable. They got this through quicker, but if you look—
Rovner: By one vote.
Raman: Yeah. But I think if you look at what else has been happening in the House this week that isn’t in the health sphere, they’ve been having issues getting other things done, because of some pushback from the Freedom Caucus, who’s been kind of stalling the votes and having them to go back. And other things that should have been smoother are taking a lot longer and having a lot more issues. So it’s more difficult to say without seeing how all of that plays out, if those folks are going to make a stink again about something here because some of this money was taken out. It’s a work in progress this week in the House.
Rovner: Yeah, that’s a very kind way to put it. The House has basically been stalled for the last 24 hours over, as you say, many things, completely unrelated, but there is actually a clock ticking on this. They had 45 days from when the administration sent up this rescission request, and we’re now on Day 43 because Congress is the world’s largest group of high school students that never do anything until the last minute. So Democrats warned that this bill represents yet another dangerous precedent. They reached a bipartisan agreement on this year of spending bills in the spring, and this basically rolls at least some of that back using a straight party-line vote. What does this bode for the rest of Congress’ appropriations work for the fiscal year that starts in just a couple of months?
Raman: I think that the sense has been that once this goes through, I think a lot of people have just been assuming that it’ll take time but that things will get passed on rescissions. It really puts a damper on the bipartisan appropriations process, and it’s going to make it a lot harder to get people to come to the table. So earlier this week we had the chair of the Appropriations Committee and the chair of the Labor, HHS [Health and Human Services], Education subcommittee in the House say that the health appropriations they were going to do next week for the House are going to get pushed back until September because they’re not ready. And I think that health is also one of the hardest ones to get through. There’s a lot more controversial stuff. It’s setting us up to go, kind of like usual at this point, for another CR [continuing resolution], because it’s going to be a really short timeline before the end of the fiscal year. But if you look at some—
Rovner: Every year they say they’re going to do the spending bills separately, and every year they don’t.
Raman: Yeah, and I think if you look at how they’ve been approaching some of the things that have been generally a little bit less controversial and how much pushback and how much more difficulties they’ve been having with that, even this week, I think that it’s going to be much more difficult to get that done. And the rescissions, pulling back on Congress’ power of the purse, is not going to make that any easier.
Rovner: I think what people don’t appreciate, and I don’t think I appreciated it either until this came up, is that the rescissions process is part of the budget act, which is one of these things that Congress can do on an expedited basis in the Senate with just a straight majority. But the regular appropriations bills, unlike the budget reconciliation bill that we just did, need 60 votes. They can be filibustered. So the only way to get appropriations done is on a bipartisan basis, and yet they’re using this rather partisan process to take back some of the deal that they made. The Democrats keep saying it, and everybody’s like, Oh, process, process. But that actually could be a gigantic roadblock, to stopping everything in its tracks, right?
Raman: I really think so. And if you look at who are the two Republicans in the Senate that voted against the rescissions, one of them is the Senate Appropriations chair, Susan Collins. And throughout this, one of her main concerns was when we still had the PEPFAR in there. But it just takes back her power as the highest-ranking appropriator in the Senate to do it through this process, especially when she wasn’t in favor of the rescissions package.
So it’s going to make things, I think, a lot more complicated, and one of her concerns throughout has just been that there wasn’t enough information. She was pulling out examples of rescissions in the past and how it was kind of a different process. They were really briefed on why this was necessary. And it was just different now. So I think what happens with appropriations and how long it’ll take this year is going to be interesting to watch.
Rovner: And it’s worth remembering that it’s when the appropriations don’t happen that the government shuts down. So, but that doesn’t happen until October. Well, separately we learned that — oh, go ahead, Joanne.
Kenen: There’s also sort of a whole new wrinkle, is that rescissions is, if you’re a Republican and you don’t like something and you end up, to avoid a government shutdown or whatever reason, you end up having to vote for a bill, you just have the president put out a statement saying, If this goes through, I’m going to cut it afterwards. And then the Republican who doesn’t like it can give a floor speech saying, I’m voting for it because I like this in it and I know that the president’s going to take care of that. It really — appropriations is always messy, but there’s this whole unknown. The constitutional balance of who does what in the American government is shifting. And at the end of the day, the only thing we do know after both the first term and what’s happened so far even more so in the second term, is what [President Donald] Trump wants, Trump tends to get.
So, Labor-H [the appropriations for Labor, HHS, Education and related agencies], like Sandhya just pointed out, the health bill is one of the hardest because there’s so much culture-war stuff in it. But, although, the Supreme Court has put some of that off the table. But I just don’t know how things play out in the current dynamic, which is unprecedented.
Rovner: And of course, Labor-HHS also has the Department of Education in it.
Kenen: The former Department of Education.
Rovner: To say, which is in the process of being dismantled. So that’s going to make that even more controversial this year. Moving back to the present, separately we learned this week that the administration plans to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars of taxpayer money to destroy stocks of food and contraceptives and other medical devices rather than distribute them through some of the international aid programs that they’re canceling. Now, in the case of an estimated 500 tons of high-energy biscuits bought by USAID [the U.S. Agency for International Development] at the end of the Biden administration, you can almost understand it because they’re literally about to expire next week. According to The Atlantic, which first reported this story, this is only a small part of 60,000 metric tons of food already purchased from U.S. farmers and sitting in warehouses around the world, where the personnel who’d be in charge of distributing them would’ve been fired or transferred or called back to the U.S.
At the same time, there are apparently also plans to destroy an estimated $12 million worth of HIV prevention supplies and contraceptives originally purchased as part of foreign aid programs rather than turn them over or even sell them to other countries or nonprofits. This feels like maybe the not most efficient use of taxpayer dollars?
Luthra: I think this is something we’ve talked about before, but it really bears repeating. As a media ecosphere, we’ve sort of moved on from the really rapid dismantling of USAID. And it was not only without precedent. It was incredibly wasteful with the sudden way it was done, all of these things that were already purchased no longer able to be used, leases literally broken. And people had to pay more to break leases for offices set up in other countries, all these sorts of things that really could have already been used because they had been paid for. And instead, the money is simply lost.
And I think the important thing for us to remember here is not only the immense waste financially to taxpayers but the real trust that has been lost, because these were promises made, things purchased, programs initiated, and when other countries see us pulling back in such a, again, I keep saying wasteful, but truly wasteful manner, it’s just really hard to ever imagine that the U.S. will be a reliable partner moving forward.
Rovner: Yeah, absolutely. I understand the food thing to some extent because the food’s going to expire, but the medical supplies that could be distributed by somebody else? I’m still sort of searching for why that would make any sense in any universe, but yeah I guess this is the continuation of, We’re going to get rid of this aid and pretend that it never happened.
Well, meanwhile, it’s only been a couple of weeks, but we’re starting to see the politics of that big Trump tax and spending measure play out. One big question is: Why didn’t Republicans listen to the usually very powerful hospital industry that usually gets its way but did not this time? And relatedly, will those Republicans who voted with Trump but against those powerful hospital interests do an about-face between now and when these Medicaid cuts are supposed to take effect? We’ve already seen Sen. Josh Hawley, the Republican from Missouri who loudly proclaimed his opposition to those Medicaid cuts before he voted for them anyway, introduce legislation to rescind them. So is this the new normal? I think, Joanne, you were sort of alluding to this, that you can now sort of vote for something and then immediately say: Didn’t mean to vote for that. Let’s undo it.
Kenen: You could even do it before you vote for it, if they play it right. If Congress passes these things, we’re not going to pay attention. We’re already in that moment. But also, when I was working on a Medicaid piece, the magazine piece like four or five months ago, one of the most cynical people I know in Washington told me, he said, Oh, they’ll pass these huge cuts because they need the budget score to get the taxes through, and then they’ll start repealing it. And it seemed so cynical at the time, only he might’ve been right.
So I don’t think they’re going to cut all of it. Republicans ideologically want a smaller Medicaid program. They want less spending. They want work requirements. You’re not going to see the whole thing go away. Could you see some retroactive tinkering or postponement or something? Yeah, you could. It’s too soon to know. Hospitals are the biggest employer in many, many congressional districts. This is a power—
Rovner: Most of them.
Kenen: Most, yeah. I don’t think it’s quite all, but like a lot. It’s the biggest single employer, and Medicaid is a big part of their income. And they still by law have to stabilize people who come in sick, and there’s emergency care and all sorts of other things, right? They do charity care. They do uninsured people. They do all sorts. They still treat people under certain circumstances even when they can’t pay. But right now, the threat of a primary opponent is more powerful than the threat of your local hospital being mad at you and harming health care access in your community. So much in the Republican world revolves around not getting the president mad enough that he threatens to get you beaten in a primary. We’ve seen that time and again already.
Rovner: Right. And I will also say there’s precedent for this, for passing something and then unpassing it. Joanne and I covered in 19—
Kenen: But it wasn’t the plan.
Rovner: Yeah, I know. But remember, back in 1997 when they passed the Balanced Budget Act, every year for the next — was it three or four years? They did what we came to call “give back” bills.
Kenen: Or punting, right?
Rovner: Yeah, where they basically undid, they unspooled, some of those cuts, mostly because they’d cut more deeply than they’d intended to. And then we know with the Affordable Care Act, I’ve said this several times, they passed all of these financing mechanisms for it and then one by one repealed them.
Kenen: And the individual mandate — I mean everything-
Rovner: And the individual mandate, right.
Kenen: They kept the dessert and they gave away everything. They undid everything that paid for the dessert, basically.
Rovner: Right. Right.
Kenen: And so it was the Cadillac — because people don’t remember anymore — the Cadillac tax, the insurance tax, the device tax. They all were like, One at a time! And they were repealed because lobbying works.
Rovner: The tanning tax just went.
Kenen: Right, right. So that dynamic existed, passing something unpopular and then redoing it, but the dynamic now really just comes — basically this is Donald Trump’s town. He has had a remarkable success in not only getting Congress to do what he wants but getting Congress to surrender some of its own powers, which have been around since Congress began. This is the way our government was set up. So there’s a very, very different dynamic, and it’s still unpredictable. None of us thought that the biggest crisis would be the [Jeffrey] Epstein case, right? Which is not a health story, and we don’t have to spend any time on it except to acknowledge—
Rovner: Please.
Kenen: —that there’s stuff going on in the background that people who had been extremely loyal to the president are now mad. And we don’t know how long. He’s very good at neutralizing things, too. He’s blaming it on the Democrats.
But there is a different dynamic. Congress has less power because Congress gave up some of its power. Are they going to want to reassert themselves? There is no sign of it right now, but who knows what happens. I thought they would cut Medicaid. I thought they would do work requirements. I thought they would let the enhanced ACA subsidies expire. But I did not think the cuts would go this deep and this extensive — really transformationally pretty historic cuts.
Rovner: Shefali, you wanted to say something?
Kenen: Not pretty historic cuts, very historic cuts. Unprecedented.
Luthra: I was thinking Joanne made such a good point about how, for all of the talk now about trying to mitigate that backlash, a lot of this is in line ideologically with what Republicans want. They do want a smaller Medicaid program. And I think a really interesting and still open question is whether they are willing and able to actually create policy that does reverse some of these cuts or not, and even if they do, if it’s sufficient to change voters’ perception, because we know that these cuts are very unpopular. Democrats are talking about them a lot. Hospitals are talking about them a lot. And just the failed attempt to repeal the ACA led to the 2018 midterms. And I think there is a real chance that this is the dominant topic when we head into next year’s elections. And it’s hard to say if Josh Hawley putting out a bill can undo that damage, so—.
Rovner: Well, I’m so glad you mentioned that, because The Washington Post has a really interesting story about a clinic closing in rural Nebraska, with its owners publicly blaming the impending Medicaid cuts. Yet its Trump-supporting patients are just not buying it. Now in 2010, Republicans managed to hang the Affordable Care Act around Democrats’ necks well before the vast majority of the changes took place. Are Democrats going to be able to do that now? There’s a lot of people saying, Oh, well, they’re not going to be able to blame this on the Republicans, because most of it won’t have happened yet. This is really going to be a who-manages-to-push-their-narrative, right?
Kenen: This really striking thing about that story is that the people who were losing access, they’re not losing their Medicaid yet, but they’re losing access to the only clinic within several — they have to drive hours now to get medical care. And when they were told this was because the Republican Congress and President Trump, they said, Oh no, it can’t be. First of all, a lot of people just don’t pay attention to the news. We know that. And then if you’re paying attention to news that never says anything negative about the president, that blames everything on Joe Biden no matter — if it rains yesterday, it was his fault, right?
So the sort of gap between — there are certain things that are matters of opinion and interpretation, and there are certain things that are matters of fact, but those facts are not getting through. And we do not know whether the Democrats will be able to get them through, because the resistance, it’s almost magical, right? My clinic closed because of a Republican Medicaid bill? Oh no, it’s hospital greed. They just don’t want to treat us anymore. They just, it doesn’t compute, because it doesn’t fit into what they have been reading and hearing, to the extent that they read and hear.
Rovner: Sandhya, you want to add something?
Raman: The one thing that as I’ve been asking around on Capitol Hill about the Hawley bill — and there was one from Sen. Rand Paul, and a House counterpart, from [Rep.] Greg Steube, does sort of the opposite — it wants to move up the timeline for one of the provisions. So one important thing to consider is neither of these bills have had a lot of buy-in from other members of Congress. They’ve been introduced, but the people that I’ve talked to have said, I’m not sure.
And I think something interesting that Sen. Thom Tillis had said was: If Republicans had a problem with what some of the impacts would be, then why were they denying that there would be an effect on rural health or some of those things to begin with? And I think a lot of it will take some time to judge to see if people will move the needle, but if we’re going to change any of these deadlines through not reconciliation, you need 60 votes in the Senate and you’ll need Democrats on board as well as Republicans. And I think one interesting thing to watch there is that I think some of the Democrats are also looking at this in a political way. If there’s a Republican that has a bill that is trying to tamp down some of the effects of their signature reconciliation law, do they want to help them and sign on to that bill or kind of illustrate the effects of the bill before the midterms or whatever?
Rovner: A lot more politics to come.
Raman: Yeah. Yeah.
Rovner: Meanwhile, over at HHS [the Department of Health and Human Services], there is also plenty of news. Many of the workers who’ve been basically in limbo since April when a judge temporarily halted the Trump administration’s efforts to downsize have now been formally let go after the Supreme Court last week lifted that injunction. What are we hearing about how things are going over at HHS? We’ve talked sort of every week about this sort of continuing chaos. I assume that the hammer falling is not helping. It’s not adding to things settling down.
Kenen: No. And then Secretary [Robert F.] Kennedy [Jr.] just fired two top aides because — no one knows exactly the full story but it’s — and I certainly do not know the full story. But what I have read is that the personality conflict with his top aide — and that happens in offices, and he’s not the first person in the history of HHS to have people who don’t get along with one another. But it’s just more unsettled stuff in an agency already in flux, because now in addition to all these people being let go in all sorts of programs and programs being rolled back, you also have some leadership chaos at the top.
Rovner: Well, meanwhile, HHS Secretary Kennedy took office with vows to eliminate the financial influence of Big Pharma, Big Food, and other industries with potential conflicts of interests. But shoutout here to my KFF Health News colleague Stephanie Armour, who has a story this week about how the new vested interests at HHS are the wellness industry. Kennedy and four top advisers, three of whom have been hired into the department, wrote Stephanie, quote, “earned at least $3.2 million in fees and salaries from their work opposing Big Pharma and promoting wellness in 2022 and 2023, according to a KFF Health News review of financial disclosure forms filed with the U.S. Office of Government Ethics and the Department of Health and Human Services; published media reports; and tax forms filed with the IRS. That total doesn’t include revenue from speaking fees, the sale of wellness products, or other income sources for which data is not publicly available.” Have we basically just traded one form of regulatory capture for another form of regulatory capture?
Kenen: And one isn’t covered by insurance. Some of it is, but there’s a lot of stuff in the, quote, “wellness” industry that providers and so forth, certain services are covered if there’s licensed people and an evidence base for them, but a lot of it isn’t. And these providers charge a lot of money out-of-pocket, too.
Rovner: And they make a lot of money. This is a totally — unlike Big Pharma, Big Food, and Big Medicine, which is regulated, Big Wellness is largely not regulated.
Kenen: I think Stephanie — that was a really good piece — and I think Stephanie said it was, what, $6.3 trillion industry? Was that—
Rovner: Yeah, it’s huge.
Kenen: Am I remembering that number right? It’s largely unregulated. Many of the products have never gone through any review for safety or efficacy. And insurance doesn’t cover a lot of it. It doesn’t mean it’s all bad. There are certain things that are helpful, but as an industry overall, it leaves something for us to worry about.
Rovner: Well, in HHS-adjacent breaking news that could turn out to be nothing or something really big, an appeals court in Richmond on Tuesday ruled 2-1 that West Virginia may in fact limit access to the abortion pill, even though it’s approved by the FDA [Food and Drug Administration]. It’s the first time a federal appeals court has basically said that states can effectively override the FDA’s nationwide drug approval authority. And it’s the question that the Supreme Court has already ducked once, in that case out of Texas last year where the justices ruled that the doctors who were suing didn’t have standing, so they didn’t have to get to that question. But, Shefali, this has implications well beyond abortion, right?
Luthra: Oh, absolutely. We are seeing efforts across the country to restrict access to certain medications that are FDA-approved. Abortion pills are the obvious one, but, of course, we can think about gender-affirming care. We can think about access to all sorts of other therapeutics and even vaccines that are now sort of coming under political fire. And if FDA approval means less than state restrictions, as we are seeing in this case, as we very possibly could see as these kinds of arguments and challenges make their way to the Supreme Court. The case you alluded to earlier with the doctors who didn’t have standing is still alive, just with different plaintiffs now. And so these questions will probably come back. There are just such vast ramifications for any kind of medication that could be politicized, and it’s something that industry at large has been very worried about since this abortion pill became such a big question. And it is something that this decision is not going to alleviate.
Rovner: Yes. Speaking of Big Pharma, they’re completely freaked out by this possibility because it does have implications for every FDA-approved drug.
Luthra: And they invest so much money in trying to get products that have FDA approval. There’s a real promise that with this global gold standard, you will be able to keep a drug on the market and really make a lot of money on it. There’s also obviously concerns for birth control, which we aren’t seeing legally restricted in the same way as abortion yet, but it is something that is so deeply subject to politics and culture-war issues that that’s something that we could see coming down the line if trends continue the way they are.
Rovner: Well, we will watch that space. Moving on. Wednesday was the third anniversary of the federal 988 federal crisis line, which has so far served an estimated 16 million people with mental health crises via call, text, or chat. An estimated 10% of those calls were routed through a special service for LGBTQ+ youth, which is being cut off today by the Trump administration, which accused the program, run by the Trevor Project, as, quote, “radical gender ideology.” Now, LGBTQ+ youth are among those at the highest risk for suicide, which is exactly what the 988 program was created to prevent. Yet there’s been very little coverage of this. I had to actually go searching to find out exactly what happened here. Is this just kind of another day in the Trump administration?
Raman: I think a lot of it stems back to some of those initial executive orders related to gender ideology and DEI [diversity, equity, and inclusion] and things like that. The Trump administration’s kind of argument is that it shouldn’t be siloed. It should be all general. There shouldn’t be sort of special treatment, even though we do have specialized services for veterans who call in to these services and things. But I—
Rovner: Although that was only saved when members of Congress complained.
Raman: Yeah. But I do think that when we have so much happening in this space focused on LGBTQ issues, it’s easier for things to get missed. I think the one thing that I did notice was that California announced yesterday that they were going to step up to do a partnership with the Trevor Project to at least — the LGBTQ youth calling from California to any of those local 988 centers would be reaching people that have been trained a little bit more in cultural competency and dealing with LGBTQ youth. But that’s not going to be all the states and it’s going to take time. Yeah.
Rovner: Yeah, we’re going to continue to see this cobbled together state by state. It feels like increasingly what services are available to you are going to be very much dependent on where you live. That’s always been true, but it feels like it’s getting more and more and more true. Shefali, I see you nodding.
Luthra: Something you alluded to that I think bears making explicit is public health interventions are typically targeted toward people who are in greater danger or are at greater risk. That’s not discrimination — that’s public health efficiency. And suggesting that we shouldn’t have resources targeted toward people at higher risk of suicide is counter to what public health experts have been arguing for a very long time. And that’s just something that I think really bears noting and keeping in mind as we see what the impact of this is moving forward.
Rovner: Yeah, I think that’s a very good point. Thank you.
Well, speaking of popular things that are going away, a federal judge appointed by President Trump last week struck down the last-minute Biden administration rule from the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau that tried to bar medical debt from appearing on credit reports. This had been hailed as a major step for the 100 million Americans with medical debt, which is not exactly the same as buying a car or a TV that you really can’t afford. People don’t go into medical debt saying, Oh, I think I’m going to go run up a big medical bill that I can’t pay. But this strikes me as yet another way this administration is basically inflicting punishment on its own voters. Yes?
Kenen: Yes, except we just don’t know. Some red states are so red that you don’t need every voter. We don’t know who actually votes, and we don’t know whether people make these connections, right? What we were talking about before with Medicaid — do they understand that this is something that President Trump not just urged but basically ordered Congress to do? So do people pay attention? How many people even know if their medical debt is or is not on their credit report? They know they have the medical debt, but I’m not sure everybody understands all the implication, particularly if you’re used to being in debt. You may be somebody who’s lost a job or couldn’t pay your mortgage or couldn’t pay your rent. Some of the people who have medical debt have so many other financial — not all — that it’s just part of a debt soup and it’s just one more ingredient.
So how it plays out and how it’s perceived? It’s part of this unpredictable mix. Trump is openly talking about gerrymandering more, and so it won’t matter what voters do, because they’ll have more Republican seats. That’s just something he’s floating. We don’t know whether it’ll actually happen, but he floated it in public, so—
Rovner: So much of this is flooding the zone, that people — there’s so much happening that people have no idea who’s responsible for what. There’s always the pollster question: Is your life better or worse than it was last year? Or four years ago, whatever. And I think that when you do so much so fast, it’s pretty hard to affix blame to anybody.
Raman: And most people aren’t single-issue voters. They’re not going to the polls saying, My medical debt is back on my credit report. There’s so many other things, even if with the last election, health care was not the number one issue for most voters. So it’s difficult to say if it will be the top issue for the next election or the next one after that.
And I guess just piggybacking that a lot of the times when there’s these big changes, they don’t take effect for a while. So it’s easier to rationalize, Oh, it may have been this person or that person or the senator then, or who was president at a different time, just because of how long it takes to see the effects in your daily life.
Rovner: Politics is messy. All right, well, this is as much time for the news as we have this week? Now it’s time for our extra-credit segment. That’s where we each recognize a story we read this week we think you should read, too. Don’t worry if you miss it. We’ll put the links in our show notes on your phone or other mobile device. Shefali, why don’t you go first this week?
Luthra: Sure. My piece is from The New York Times, by Apoorva Mandavilli. The headline is “Trump Official Accused PEPFAR of Funding Abortions in Russia. It Wasn’t True.” And she takes a look at when the head of the OMB [Office of Management and Budget] told the Senate that PEPFAR had spent almost $10 million advising Russian doctors on abortions and gender analysis. And she goes through and says this isn’t true. PEPFAR hasn’t been in Russia. They cannot fund abortions. And she talks with people who were there and can say this simply isn’t true and this is very easy to disprove. And I like this piece because it’s just a reminder that a lot of things are being said about government spending that are not true. And it is a public service to remind readers that they are very easily disproven.
Rovner: Yeah, and to go ahead and do that. Sandhya.
Raman: My extra credit is “‘We’re Creating Miscarriages With Medicine’: Abortion Lessons From Sweden,” and it’s from Cecilia Nowell for The Nation, my co-fellow through AHCJ [the Association of Health Care Journalists] this year. Cecilia went to Kiruna, which is an Arctic village in Sweden, to look at how they’re using mifepristone for abortions up to 22 weeks in pregnancy, compared to up to 10 weeks in the U.S. And it’s a really interesting look at how they’re navigating rural access to abortion in very remote areas. Almost all abortions in Sweden are done through medication abortion, and while the majority here are in the 60% versus high 90s. So just interesting how they’re taking their approach there as rural access is limited here.
Rovner: Really interesting story. Joanne.
Kenen: This is a piece in The New Yorker by Dhruv Khullar, and it’s “Can A.I. Find Cures for Untreatable Diseases — Using Drugs We Already Have?” And what I found interesting, we’ve been hearing about: Can AI do this? It’s sort of been in the air since AI came around. But what was so interesting about this article is there’s a nonprofit that is actually doing it, and they have this sort of whole sort of hierarchy of why a drug may be promising and why a disease may be a good target. And then the AI look at genetics and diseases, and they have four or five factors they look at. And then there’s this just sort of hierarchy of which are the ones we can make accessible.
So A, it’s actually happening. B, it has promise. It’s not a panacea, but there’s promise. And C, it’s being done by a nonprofit. It’s not a cocktail for an individual patient. It’s trying to figure out: What are the smartest drugs to be looking at and what can they treat? And they give examples of people who have gone into remission from rare diseases. And also it says there are 18,000 diseases and only 9,000 have treatment. So this is huge, right? Rare diseases may only affect a few people, but there are lots of rare diseases. So cumulatively some of the people they strike are young. So for someone who doesn’t always read about AI, I found this one interesting.
Rovner: Also, we read somebody’s story about how AI is terrible for this, that, and the other thing. It is very promising for an awful lot of things.
Kenen: No. Right.
Rovner: There’s a reason that everybody’s looking at it.
All right, my extra credit this week is also from The New York Times. It’s called “UnitedHealth’s Campaign to Quiet Critics,” by David Enrich, who’s The Times’ deputy investigations editor and, notably, author of a book on attacks on press freedoms. That’s because the story chronicles how UnitedHealth, the mega health company we have talked about a lot on this show, is taking a cue from President Trump and increasingly taking its critics to court, in part by claiming that critical reporting about the company risks inciting further violence like the Midtown Manhattan murder of United executive Brian Thompson last year.
I hasten to add, this isn’t a matter of publications making stuff up. United, as we have pointed out, is a subject of myriad civil and criminal investigations into potential Medicare fraud as well as antitrust violations. This is still another chapter unfolding in the big United story.
OK, that is this week’s show. Thanks as always to our editor, Emmarie Huetteman, and our producer-engineer, Francis Ying. If you enjoy the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left us to review. That helps other people find us, too. Also, as always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org. Or you can find me on X, @jrovner, or on Bluesky, @julierovner. Where are you folks hanging these days? Shefali?
Raman: I’m at Bluesky, @shefali.
Rovner: Sandhya.
Raman: I’m at X and at Bluesky, @SandhyaWrites.
Rovner: Joanne?
Kenen: I’m mostly at Bluesky, @joannekenen.bsky, and I’ve been posting things more on LinkedIn, and there are more health people hanging out there.
Rovner: So we are hearing. We will be back in your feed next week. Until then, be healthy.
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Even Grave Errors at Rehab Hospitals Go Unpenalized and Undisclosed
Rehab hospitals that help people recover from major surgeries and injuries have become a highly lucrative slice of the health care business.
But federal data and inspection reports show that some run by the dominant company, Encompass Health Corp., and other for-profit corporations have had rare but serious incidents of patient harm and perform below average on two key safety measures tracked by Medicare.
Yet even when inspections reveal grave cases of injury, federal health officials do not inform consumers or impose fines the way they do for nursing homes. And Medicare doesn’t provide easy-to-understand five-star ratings as it does for general hospitals.
In the most serious problems documented by regulators, rehab hospital errors involved patient deaths.
In Encompass Health’s hospital in Huntington, West Virginia, Elizabeth VanBibber, 73, was fatally poisoned by a carbon monoxide leak during construction at the facility.
At its hospital in Jackson, Tennessee, a patient, 68, was found dead overnight, lying on the floor in a “pool of blood” after an alarm that was supposed to alert nurses that he had gotten out of bed had been turned off.
In its hospital in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, a nurse gave Frederick Roufs, 73, the wrong drug, one of 26 medication errors the hospital made over six months. He died two days later at another hospital.
“I can still see Fred laying in the bed as they shut each little machine off,” said his widow, Susan Roufs. “They clicked four of them, and then the love of my life was gone.”
Encompass, which owns 168 hospitals and admitted 248,000 patients last year, has led the transformation of this niche industry. In 2023, stand-alone for-profit medical rehabilitation hospitals overtook nonprofits as the places where the majority of annual patient admissions occur, a KFF Health News and New York Times analysis found. A third of all admissions were to Encompass hospitals. Such facilities are required to provide three hours of therapy a day, five days a week.
Across the nation, there are now nearly 400 stand-alone rehab hospitals, the bulk of which are for-profit. These hospitals collectively generate profits of 10%, more than general hospitals, which earn about 6%, and far more than skilled nursing homes, which make less than 0.5%, according to the most recent data from the Medicare Payment Advisory Commission, an independent congressional agency.
At the same time, the number of small, specialized units within acute care hospitals — where most rehab used to be provided — has dwindled. There are now around 800 of those, and most are nonprofits.
In its latest annual report, Encompass, which is publicly traded, reported an 11% net profit in 2024, earning $597 million last year on revenues of $5.4 billion.
Federal data on the performance of about 1,100 of the rehab facilities show Encompass tends to be better at helping most patients return home and remain there. In a two-year period ending in September 2023, Medicare rated 233 rehab facilities as performing better than the national rate for this major metric, called “discharge to community.” Most rehabs with better community discharge rates are for-profit, and Encompass owns 79 of them.
But data from Medicare also reveals Encompass owns many of the rehabs with worse rates of potentially preventable, unplanned readmissions to general hospitals. Medicare evaluates how often patients are rehospitalized for conditions that might have been averted with proper care, including infections, bedsores, dehydration, and kidney failures.
Encompass accounts for about 1 in 7 rehab facilities nationally, but owned 34 of the 41 inpatient rehab facilities that Medicare rated as having statistically significantly worse rates of potentially preventable readmissions for discharged patients. (Overall, rates of readmission after discharge ranged from 7% to 12%, with a median of 9%.)
And it owned 28 of the 87 rehab facilities — 65 of which were for-profit — that had worse rates of potentially preventable readmissions to general hospitals during patient stays. (The median for these kinds of readmissions was 5%, and rates for individual rehabs ranged from 3% to 9%.)
Patrick Darby, the executive vice president and general counsel of Encompass, strongly defended the company’s record in written responses to questions. He dismissed Medicare’s readmissions ratings of “better,” “worse,” and “no different than the national rate” as “a crude scoring measure” and said “performance is so similar across the board.” He called the violations found during health inspections “rare occurrences” that “do not support an inference of widespread quality concerns.”
“The simplest and most accurate reason for EHC’s success is that our hospitals provide superior care to patients,” he said, referring to Encompass by its corporate initials.
Chih-Ying Li, an associate professor of occupational therapy at the University of Texas Medical Branch at Galveston School of Health Professions, said in an interview that a research study she conducted found the profit status of a rehab facility was the only characteristic associated with higher unplanned readmissions.
“The finding is pretty robust,” she said. “It’s not like huge, huge differences, but there are differences.”
VanBibber was admitted to Encompass’ Huntington hospital in 2021 for therapy to strengthen her lungs. At the time, the hospital was undergoing a $3 million expansion, and state regulators had warned the company that areas of the hospital occupied by patients had to be isolated from the construction “using airtight barriers,” according to a health inspection report.
In her room, which was about 66 feet from the construction zone, she began having trouble breathing, the report said. When she told the staff, they ignored her and shut her door, according to a lawsuit brought by her estate. Staff members eventually noticed that she was “lethargic and gasping for air,” and called 911.
When the emergency medical squad arrived, the carbon monoxide detectors they wore sounded. By that time, VanBibber’s blood oxygen levels were dangerously low, the inspection report said. She died three days later from respiratory failure and carbon monoxide poisoning, according to the inspection report and the lawsuit. A plumber had been using a gas-powered saw in the construction area, but there were no carbon monoxide detectors in the hallways, the report said.
In court papers, Encompass and its construction contractors denied negligence for VanBibber’s death. The case is pending.
Inspectors determined Encompass failed to maintain a safe environment for all patients during construction and didn’t properly evaluate other patients for signs of poisoning, the report said.
Since 2021, the federal Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services, or CMS, which oversees health inspections, has found that 10 Encompass hospitals, including the one that cared for VanBibber, had immediate jeopardy violations, federal records show. Such violations — like the ones that Medicare also found in connection with the deaths of Roufs and the patient who fell after leaving his bed — mean a hospital’s failure to comply with federal rules has put patients at risk for serious injury, serious harm, serious impairment, or death.
Darby, the general counsel for Encompass, said the company regretted any clinical problems and had promptly addressed all such findings to the satisfaction of inspectors. He said Encompass that has an “excellent compliance record,” including superior results from its accreditation agency, and that its overall number of health citations was tiny given how many hospitals Encompass owns and how many patients it treats.
Six other corporate-operated for-profit hospitals were also cited, while none of the 31 stand-alone nonprofit rehab hospitals received such violations from 2021 to 2024. (Inspection reports for general hospitals do not systematically specify in which part of the building a violation occurred, so rehab unit violations cannot be identified.)
An alert called a bed alarm was at the root of immediate jeopardies at Encompass hospitals in Morgantown, West Virginia, and Jackson, Tennessee. The devices are pressure- and motion-sensitive and emit a sound and display a light to alert staff members that someone at a high risk of falls has left his or her bed.
In its Morgantown hospital, a nurse technician discovered a patient face down on the floor with a large gash on her head after a defective alarm did not go off, an inspection report said. After she died, the nurse told inspectors: “We are having a lot of problems with the bed alarms.”
Medicare is not authorized by law to fine rehab hospitals for safety rule violations, even ones involving deaths uncovered during inspections, as it has done with nearly 8,000 nursing homes during the last three years, imposing average fines of about $28,000.
The only option is to entirely cut off a rehab hospital’s reimbursement for all services by Medicare and Medicaid, which cover most patients. That step would most likely put it out of business and is almost never used because of its draconian consequences.
“Termination is typically a last resort after working with the provider to come back into compliance,” Catherine Howden, a CMS spokesperson, said in an email.
As a result, because there’s no graduated penalty, even the most serious — and rare — immediate jeopardy violations effectively carry no punishments so long as the hospital puts steps in place to avert future problems.
“Only having a nuclear weapon has really hurt patient safety,” said Michael Millenson, a medical quality advocate.
One immediate jeopardy incident did result in a punishment, but only because the hospital was in California, which allows its health department to issue penalties. Encompass’ Bakersfield hospital paid a $75,000 fine last year for failing to control the blood sugar of a patient who died after her heart stopped.
Rapid Growth and a Troubled History
Encompass has accelerated its expansion in recent years and now operates in 38 states and Puerto Rico. It plans to open 17 more hospitals in Arizona, Connecticut, Florida, Georgia, Maine, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, Texas, and Utah by the end of 2027, according to its latest report.
It frequently moves into new markets by persuading local nonprofit hospitals to shutter their rehab units in exchange for an equity stake in a newly built Encompass hospital, company executives have told investors.
The president of Encompass, Mark Tarr, calls it a “win-win proposition”: The local hospitals can use their emptied space for a more lucrative line of service and Encompass gets a “jump start” into a new market, with partner hospitals often referring patients.
Tarr, who was paid $9.3 million in compensation last year, told investors that Encompass requires that the existing hospitals sign a noncompete deal. Sixty-seven Encompass hospitals are joint ventures, mostly with nonprofit hospitals as investors, according to the company’s June financial filing, the most recent available.
Darby said the company’s profits allow it to build hospitals in areas that lack intensive inpatient rehabilitation and improve existing hospitals. “High-quality patient care is not only consistent with shareholder return, but quality and shareholder return are in fact critical to one another,” he said.
The success of Encompass is particularly notable given that it barely survived what experts said was one of the largest modern accounting scandals in 2003.
The Securities and Exchange Commission charged that the company, then known as HealthSouth, overstated earnings by $2.7 billion to meet Wall Street analyst quarterly expectations, leading to the ouster of its founder and directors. In 2004, the company agreed to pay the government $325 million to settle Medicare fraud allegations without admitting wrongdoing. Darby credited the company’s new leaders for obtaining a $2.9 billion judgment on behalf of shareholders against the company’s founder.
The company changed its name to Encompass in 2018 after acquiring Encompass Home Health and Hospice. In 2019, the Justice Department announced the company had agreed to pay $48 million to settle whistleblower lawsuit claims that it misdiagnosed patients to get higher Medicare reimbursements, and admitted patients who were too sick to benefit from therapy. The company denied any wrongdoing, blaming independent physicians who worked at its hospitals. Darby said Encompass settled the case only to “avoid more years of expense and disruption.” He said the Justice Department never filed a lawsuit despite years of investigation.
Medication Harms
Rehab hospital inspection reports are not posted on Care Compare, Medicare’s online search tool for consumers. KFF Health News had to sue CMS under the Freedom of Information Act to obtain all its inspection reports for rehab hospitals. In contrast, Care Compare publishes all nursing home inspection reports and assigns each facility a star rating for its adherence to health and safety rules.
So people now choosing a rehab hospital would not know that at the Encompass hospital in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, in 2021, a nurse accidentally gave Roufs a blood pressure drug called hydralazine instead of hydroxyzine, his prescribed anti-anxiety medication, according to an inspection report. Roufs went into cardiac arrest. This type of error, called a “look-alike/sound-alike,” is one hospitals and staff members are supposed to be especially alert to.
Months before, an internal safety committee had identified a trend of medication errors, including when a nurse accidentally gave a patient 10 times the prescribed amount of insulin, sending him to the hospital, the inspection report said. The nurse had misread four units as 40. Since Roufs’s death, inspectors have faulted the hospital six times for various lapses, most recently in April 2024 for improper wound care.
An Encompass hospital in Texarkana, Texas, misused antipsychotic medications to pacify patients, resulting in an immediate jeopardy finding from CMS, the report said. And the company’s hospital in Erie, Pennsylvania, was issued an immediate jeopardy violation for not keeping track of medication orders in 2023, when a patient had a cardiac arrest after not receiving all of his drugs, according to the inspection report.
The federal government’s overall quality oversight efforts are limited. Medicare docks payment to rehab facilities for patients readmitted to a general hospital during shorter-than-average rehab stays, but unlike at general hospitals, there are no financial penalties when recently discharged rehab patients are hospitalized for critical health issues.
The Biden administration announced last year it intended to develop a rating scale of 1 to 5 stars for rehab facilities. The industry’s trade association, the American Medical Rehabilitation Providers Association, requested a delay in the creation of star ratings until the current quality measures were refined. The Trump administration has not determined whether it will continue the effort to rate rehab facilities, according to a CMS spokesperson.
Deadly Bedsores
The family of Paul Webb Jr., 74, claimed in a lawsuit that the Encompass hospital in Erie left Webb unattended in a wheelchair for hours at a time, putting pressure on his tailbone, in 2021. His medical records, provided to reporters by the family, list a sitting tolerance of one hour.
Webb — who had been originally hospitalized after a brain bleed, a type of stroke — developed skin damage known as a pressure sore, or bedsore, on his bottom, the lawsuit said. The suit said the sore worsened after he was sent to a nursing home, which the family is also suing, then home, and he died later that year. In his final weeks, Webb was unable to stand, sit, or move much because of the injury, the lawsuit said.
In court papers, Encompass and the nursing home denied negligence, as Encompass has in some other pending and closed lawsuits that accused it of failing to prevent pressure sores because nurses and aides failed to regularly reposition patients, or notice and treat emerging sores. Darby said Webb’s death occurred three months after his Encompass stay and was not related to his care at Encompass. He said no hospital with long-term patients could prevent every new or worsening pressure sore, but that Encompass’ rates were similar to the 1% national average.
One of Webb’s sons, Darel Webb, recalled a warning given to the family as they left an appointment their father had with wound specialists: A doctor brought up Christopher Reeve, the actor who played Superman in movies in the 1970s and 1980s.
“He goes, ‘Remember, Superman was paralyzed from falling off the horse, but he died from a bedsore,’” he said.
Jordan Rau has been writing about hospital safety since 2008. Irena Hwang is a New York Times data reporter who uses computational tools to uncover hidden stories and illuminate the news.
METHODOLOGY
To examine the medical rehabilitation hospital industry, we obtained and analyzed a database of inspection reports of freestanding rehabilitation hospitals from the federal Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services, or CMS. We also obtained inspection reports from several states through public records requests.
We analyzed inpatient rehabilitation facility characteristics and patient volume data contained in hospital data files from the Rand Corp., a nonprofit research organization. This dataset compiles cost reports all hospitals submit each year to CMS. For each facility for the years 2012 to 2023, we categorized annual discharges by facility type (freestanding rehabilitation hospital or unit within an acute care hospital); facility ownership status (for-profit, nonprofit, or government); and which hospitals were owned by Encompass Health under its current or prior name, HealthSouth.
Financial information about Encompass Health was obtained from the company’s Securities and Exchange Commission disclosure filings.
We examined the readmission rates for all inpatient rehabilitation facilities that CMS publishes in its quality data. CMS evaluates the frequency with which Medicare patients were readmitted for potentially preventable reasons to an acute care hospital during their rehab stay. Separately, CMS also evaluates the frequency of potentially preventable readmissions to an acute care hospital within 30 days of discharge from rehab. We also examined the rate of successful return to home or community. Figures for all three metrics were available for about 1,100 of the roughly 1,200 rehab facilities in the CMS data. The most recent readmission data covered Medicare discharges from October 2021 through September 2023.
We examined nursing home penalties from the last three years from CMS’ data on nursing homes.
KFF Health News is a national newsroom that produces in-depth journalism about health issues and is one of the core operating programs at KFF—an independent source of health policy research, polling, and journalism. Learn more about KFF.
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Vested Interests. Influence Muscle. At RFK Jr.’s HHS, It’s Not Pharma. It’s Wellness.
On his way to an Ultimate Fighting Championship event, Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. stopped by the home of podcaster Gary Brecka.
On his way to an Ultimate Fighting Championship event, Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. stopped by the home of podcaster Gary Brecka. The two spent time in a hyperbaric oxygen chamber and tried some intravenous nutrition drips that Brecka, a self-avowed longevity and wellness maven, sells and promotes on his show, “The Ultimate Human.”
Then the podcast taping started, and Kennedy — who was also on the mic — took aim at Big Pharma’s influence on federal health policy.
“We have a sick-care system in our country, and the etiology ultimately of all that disease is corruption,” Kennedy said before the show cut away to an ad for vitamin chips. “And it’s the capture of these agencies by the industries they are supposed to regulate.”
While Kennedy lambastes federal agencies he says are overly influenced by the pharmaceutical industry, he and some other figures of the “Make America Healthy Again,” or MAHA, movement — such as siblings Calley and Casey Means, Robert Malone, and Peter McCullough — have their own financial ties to a vast and largely unregulated $6.3 trillion global wellness industry they also support and promote.
Kennedy and those four advisers — three of whom have been tapped for official government roles — earned at least $3.2 million in fees and salaries from their work opposing Big Pharma and promoting wellness in 2022 and 2023, according to a KFF Health News review of financial disclosure forms filed with the U.S. Office of Government Ethics and the Department of Health and Human Services; published media reports; and tax forms filed with the IRS.
The total doesn’t include revenue from speaking fees, the sale of wellness products, or other income sources for which data isn’t publicly available.
The Means siblings have launched wellness companies that have raised more than $99 million from investors, according to company news releases as well as information from Clay, a customer research data company, and Tracxn, an information technology firm that provides access to a database of companies, funding rounds, and investor information.
“Secretary Kennedy, and all HHS officials, fully comply with all ethics and financial disclosure laws,” agency spokesperson Emily Hilliard said in an email. “Any attempt to suggest impropriety is reckless and politically motivated.”
Some public health leaders and ethicists say the financial ties raise red flags, with the potential for personal profits to shape decision-making at the highest levels of federal health agencies.
“It’s becoming completely corrupted,” said Arthur Caplan, founding head of the medical ethics division at New York University’s Grossman School of Medicine. “You shouldn’t have a vested interest in making recommendations on wellness or supplements or health. It opens the door to all kinds of shenanigans. Big Wellness is no different than Big Pharma. They’re a well-organized political force.”
Unlike any other previous administration, President Donald Trump’s administration has elevated anti-vaccine and wellness leaders to positions at HHS from which they can steer federal policy. Adherents to the MAHA movement say the change is long overdue, arguing that previous administrations haven’t devoted sufficient attention to the potential harms of traditional medical approaches.
Critics including health policy leaders and physicians say they worry the revamped HHS and its agencies are now harming public health. For example, they point to a recent Kennedy decision to remove and replace all the members of a vaccine advisory group, a move the American Medical Association criticized as lacking transparency and proper vetting. Two of Kennedy’s newly named panel members — Malone and Martin Kulldorff — previously earned money as paid experts in vaccine lawsuits against Merck, as first reported by Reuters and the life-sciences news outlet BioSpace.
Calley Means, who has criticized the recommended U.S. vaccine schedule for youths and has no medical training, is a special government employee and a top health adviser to Kennedy. He also co-founded the wellness company Truemed.
The company enables people to spend pretax dollars from Flexible Spending Accounts and Health Savings Accounts to pay for wellness products, health food, and SoulCycle classes.
Truemed’s website says it can provide customers with a “Letter of Medical Necessity” for the items.
The IRS has warned consumers about companies that misrepresent wellness items like food as FSA-eligible when they are not, in fact, permitted medical expenses.
The IRS did not respond to questions about the status of that policy under the Trump administration.
In 2024, when Kennedy was running for president as an independent, he promoted Means’ company on his own podcast. Means also promoted his close connection with Kennedy last year on podcasts and on Instagram while also using social media to advance Truemed. And while working for the public as a special government employee since March, Means has used social and new media to promote podcasters who make money selling wellness products, to criticize specific pharmaceutical drugs, and to tout the wellness book he co-wrote, “Good Energy,” according to a KFF Health News review of social media posts and podcasts.
Means has also used podcasts and social media to rail against new injectable weight loss drugs. The Trump administration in April decided not to finalize a rule that would have allowed Medicaid and Medicare to cover the injectable drugs, putting them out of reach for millions of potential users.
Hilliard, the HHS spokesperson, didn’t respond to questions about whether Means, as a Kennedy adviser, has recused himself from decisions that could affect his business. Neither HHS nor the White House responded to requests to speak with him.
His sister, Casey Means, is Trump’s pick for surgeon general and was also an adviser to Kennedy during his 2024 presidential run. She co-founded Levels, a company valued at $300 million in 2022 that promotes glucose monitoring for nondiabetic, healthy individuals. Consumers pay $199 for a one-month supply of continuous glucose monitors.
She has used social media to call for public policy that would encourage blood sugar monitoring for healthy individuals, saying “tips to stabilize glucose should be on every billboard in America.” Research has found little evidence that such monitoring provides health benefits for people without diabetes.
Her company stands to benefit under the Trump administration. Kennedy said in April that he was considering a regulatory framework for federal health programs’ coverage of injectable weight loss drugs that would first require patients to try glucose monitoring or other options.
“And if they don’t work, then you would be entitled to the drug,” he told CBS News.
Casey Means isn’t a practicing doctor and doesn’t hold an active medical license, according to records from the Oregon Medical Board. And, as an online influencer, she “failed to disclose that she could profit” from sales of products she recommends, according to The Associated Press.
HHS spokesperson Hilliard didn’t answer questions about whether Casey Means would recuse herself from working on anything that would directly benefit her company, or why she didn’t disclose that she could profit from sales of products she recommends. HHS didn’t respond to questions about Means’ ties to Kennedy or agency support for glucose monitoring, nor did the agency respond to a request to speak directly to the Trump surgeon general pick.
Outside Advisers
McCullough, a former cardiac doctor who has financial ties to the wellness industry, has been part of Kennedy’s circle of informal advisers, according to people close to the secretary. He also has enough sway with some GOP lawmakers that they’ve had him testify before Congress. In May, he told a Senate subcommittee that mRNA covid-19 vaccines can lead to deaths that have been underreported. But the FDA says the covid vaccines are safe, with fewer than 1 in 200,000 vaccinated individuals experiencing a severe allergic reaction or heart problems like myocarditis or pericarditis.
He profits from his anti-covid-vaccine message. McCullough devised a protocol he says helps people detox from covid mRNA shots, selling the products through The Wellness Co. McCullough is the company’s chief scientific officer, draws a partial salary, and holds an equity stake.
For $89.99, consumers can purchase Ultimate Spike Detox supplements containing nattokinase, an enzyme from fermented soybeans. A two-month supply of Spike Support supplements sells on Amazon for about $62. More than 900 bottles have sold in the past month.
McCullough didn’t respond to an email seeking comment. HHS also didn’t respond to questions about his relationship with Kennedy.
Some health policy leaders and doctors say the financial connections federal health officials and advisers have to the wellness industry raise concerns.
“It’s exactly the problem RFK has taken up with the FDA, saying it’s too beholden to pharma,” said Pieter Cohen, an associate professor of medicine at Harvard University.
“When you’re in bed with supplement manufacturers, you are creating the same kinds of conflicts of interest, whether or not you directly profit,” he said. “You should be independently advocating for public health, not cheerleading for any particular industry.”
The wellness sector includes personal care, weight loss, health, nutrition, and wellness tourism.
Its lobbying influence is markedly smaller than the lobbying reach of pharmaceutical companies, according to OpenSecrets, a research organization that tracks money in U.S. politics. The nutritional and dietary supplements industry spent about $3.7 million on lobbying in 2024, for example, compared with the $387 million the pharmaceutical industry spent the same year.
It’s also gotten far less scrutiny. The industry is a growing political force with its own lobbyists, celebrities, and industry-backed advocacy groups, and research shows that public interest in wellness has grown since the pandemic. Eighty-four percent of U.S. consumers say wellness is a “top” or “important” priority, according to a survey released this year by McKinsey & Co.
Unlike with Big Pharma, there’s scant regulation of the industry. Companies can sell supplements and other products without notifying the FDA, and there’s little oversight by the Federal Trade Commission of their product claims.
“The wellness industry profiteers by undermining and creating distrust in science and regulated products,” said Andrea Love, an immunologist and microbiologist who founded ImmunoLogic, a science and health education organization. “They are messaging that the government and Big Pharma are hiding information and treatments or cures to keep us weak and vulnerable.”
Ethics and Disclosures
People on both sides of the issue say the industry has found its captain in Kennedy, an anti-vaccine activist with deep ties to the MAHA and wellness movements.
He has profited by referring people to law firms that are suing over alleged vaccine injury. For example, he gets a fee for referring potential clients to a Los Angeles personal injury firm, according to a January ethics statement to HHS and his financial disclosures. One of his adult sons works at the personal injury law firm.
When his nomination to the HHS secretary post was under consideration, Kennedy indicated in his ethics disclosure that he intended to continue profiting from lawsuits over Gardasil, a Merck vaccine that protects against HPV. After Democrats raised concerns with the financial relationship, he told Congress he would divest his interest and sign over the financial stake to one of his adult sons.
Federal ethics rules bar government employees from participating in matters in which they, their spouse, or their minor child has a financial stake. It doesn’t include adult children such as Kennedy’s sons.
“There are a lot of loopholes, and that is one of them,” said Cynthia Brown, senior ethics counsel at the Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington, a watchdog organization focused on U.S. government ethics and accountability. “It certainly is an appearance problem. Even if it’s not a technical violation, it is an ethical problem in terms of influence.”
Some lawmakers and ethics leaders weren’t mollified by Kennedy’s planned divestiture. Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.) called on Kennedy to agree to a four-year, post-employment ban on accepting any compensation from lawsuits involving any entity regulated by HHS.
“It would be insufficient for RFK Jr. to only divest his interest in the Gardasil case while leaving the window open to profit from other anti-vax lawsuits, including future cases he could bring after leaving office,” she said in a statement.
Kennedy also made money on the MAHA name by applying in September to register it as a trademark. He transferred trademark ownership to a limited liability company led by friend and MAHA ally Del Bigtree after making about $100,000 off the phrase, according to his financial disclosure.
HHS’ Hilliard didn’t answer questions about whether Kennedy had signed over his interest in fees from legal referrals to his son, the money he made by registering MAHA as a trademark, or whether he agreed with Warren’s request that upon leaving office he accept a four-year ban on accepting money from lawsuits involving entities regulated by HHS.
Bigtree is executive director of the Informed Consent Action Network, or ICAN, an anti-vaccination group. He was communications director for Kennedy’s failed presidential campaign, and as an informal adviser to the secretary he helped vet candidates for HHS jobs. Bigtree’s salary at the nonprofit was $234,000 for the 2023 fiscal year, according to documents filed with the IRS. ICAN paid $6 million in legal fees to Siri & Glimstad in 2023. The firm’s managing partner, Aaron Siri, focuses on vaccine injury. He has been Kennedy’s personal lawyer and adviser, and also helped vet candidates for the secretary.
Brown, an ethics counselor, said the transfer and ongoing advisory relationship could raise questions about who is influencing Kennedy. Bigtree, at a Politico event in February, called on Kennedy to recruit scientists to HHS who believe vaccines cause autism, for example. One of Kennedy’s early actions at HHS was the launch of a study on the causes of autism.
ICAN didn’t respond to an email seeking comment. HHS also didn’t respond to questions about Kennedy’s transfer of the MAHA trademark to Bigtree.
“This is the type of Washington wheeling and dealing that raises questions about integrity in government,” Brown said. “If it was trademarked before he became a public official, there may be no law broken. But by transferring it to someone he knows, it illustrates the constant trickle of influence among those in power.”
Past administrations have faced similar criticism over health regulators’ ties to Big Pharma. Alex Azar, who led HHS during the previous Trump administration, worked for drugmaker Eli Lilly before entering public office. Robert Califf, FDA commissioner during the Biden administration, was a consultant to drug companies.
Scott Gottlieb, who was FDA commissioner from 2017 to 2019 and an adviser to Trump’s presidential campaign, stepped down to join the board of the drugmaker Pfizer.
“Big Pharma is well off. But, in general, financial conflicts don’t depend on how much the organizations are spending,” said Zeke Emanuel, a bioethicist who served on a covid advisory board under President Joe Biden. “The question is, is there a reasonable concern that financial or other concerns are affecting their judgment?”
KFF Health News is a national newsroom that produces in-depth journalism about health issues and is one of the core operating programs at KFF—an independent source of health policy research, polling, and journalism. Learn more about KFF.
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KFF Health News' 'What the Health?': Trump’s Bill Reaches the Finish Line
The Host
Julie Rovner
KFF Health News
Julie Rovner is chief Washington correspondent and host of KFF Health News’ weekly health policy news podcast, “What the Health?” A noted expert on health policy issues, Julie is the author of the critically praised reference book “Health Care Politics and Policy A to Z,” now in its third edition.
Early Thursday afternoon, the House approved a budget reconciliation bill that not only would make permanent many of President Donald Trump’s 2017 tax cuts, but also impose deep cuts to Medicaid, the Affordable Care Act, and, indirectly, Medicare.
Meanwhile, those appointed by Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. to a key vaccine advisory panel used their first official meeting to cast doubt on a preservative that has been used in flu vaccines for decades — with studies showing no evidence of its harm in low doses.
This week’s panelists are Julie Rovner of KFF Health News, Alice Miranda Ollstein of Politico, Maya Goldman of Axios, and Sarah Karlin-Smith of the Pink Sheet.
Panelists
Maya Goldman
Axios
Sarah Karlin-Smith
Pink Sheet
@sarahkarlin-smith.bsky.social
Alice Miranda Ollstein
Politico
Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:
- This week the GOP steamrolled toward a major constriction of the nation’s social safety net, pushing through Trump’s tax and spending bill. The legislation contains significant changes to the way Medicaid is funded and delivered — in particular, through imposing the program’s first federal work requirement on many enrollees. Hospitals say the changes would be devastating, potentially resulting in the loss of services and facilities that could touch all patients, not only those on Medicaid.
- Some proposals in Trump’s bill were dropped during the Senate’s consideration, including a ban on Medicaid coverage for gender-affirming care and federal funding cuts for states that use their own Medicaid funds to cover immigrants without legal status. And for all the talk of not touching Medicare, the legislation’s repercussions for the deficit are expected to trigger spending cuts to the program that covers those over 65 and some with disabilities — potentially as soon as the next fiscal year.
- The newly reconstituted Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices met last week, and it looked pretty different from previous meetings: In addition to new members, there were fewer staffers on hand from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention — and the notable presence of vaccine critics. The panel’s vote to reverse the recommendation of flu shots containing a mercury-based preservative — plus its plans to review the childhood vaccine schedule — hint at what’s to come.
Plus, for “extra credit,” the panelists suggest health policy stories they read this week that they think you should read, too:
Julie Rovner: The Lancet’s “Evaluating the Impact of Two Decades of USAID Interventions and Projecting the Effects of Defunding on Mortality up to 2030: A Retrospective Impact Evaluation and Forecasting Analysis,” by Daniella Medeiros Cavalcanti, et al.
Alice Miranda Ollstein: The New York Times’ “‘I Feel Like I’ve Been Lied To’: When a Measles Outbreak Hits Home,” by Eli Saslow.
Maya Goldman: Axios’ “New Docs Get Schooled in Old Diseases as Vax Rates Fall,” by Tina Reed.
Sarah Karlin-Smith: Wired’s “Snake Venom, Urine, and a Quest to Live Forever: Inside a Biohacking Conference Emboldened by MAHA,” by Will Bahr.
Also mentioned in this week’s episode:
- NBC News’ “Crisis Pregnancy Centers Told To Avoid Ultrasounds for Suspected Ectopic Pregnancies,” by Abigail Brooks.
- ProPublica’s “A ‘Striking’ Trend: After Texas Banned Abortion, More Women Nearly Bled to Death During Miscarriage,” by Kavitha Surana, Lizzie Presser, and Andrea Suozzo.
- The Washington Post’s “DOGE Loses Control Over Government Grants Website, Freeing Up Billions,” by Dan Diamond and Hannah Natanson.
click to open the transcript
Transcript: Trump’s Bill Reaches the Finish Line
[Editor’s note: This transcript was generated using both transcription software and a human’s light touch. It has been edited for style and clarity.]
Julie Rovner: Hello, and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Julie Rovner, chief Washington correspondent for KFF Health News, and I’m joined by some of the best and smartest health reporters in Washington. We’re taping this week on Thursday, July 3, at 10 a.m. As always, and particularly this week, news happens fast and things might have changed by the time you hear this. So, here we go.
Today we are joined via videoconference by Alice Miranda Ollstein of Politico.
Alice Miranda Ollstein: Hello.
Rovner: Sarah Karlin-Smith at the Pink Sheet.
Sarah Karlin-Smith: Hi, everybody.
Rovner: And Maya Goldman of Axios News.
Maya Goldman: Good to be here.
Rovner: No interview this week, but more than enough news, so we will get right to it. So as we sit down to tape, the House is on the cusp of passing the biggest constriction of the federal social safety net ever, part of President [Donald] Trump’s, quote, “One Big Beautiful Bill,” which is technically no longer called that, because the name was ruled out of order when it went through the Senate. In an effort to get the bill to the president’s desk by the July Fourth holiday, aka tomorrow, the House had to swallow without changes the bill that passed the Senate on Tuesday morning after Vice President JD Vance broke a 50-50 tie. And the House has been in session continuously since Wednesday morning working to do just that, with lots of arm-twisting and threatening and cajoling to walk back the complaints from both conservative Republicans, who are objecting to the trillions of dollars the bill would add to the national debt, as well as moderates objecting to the Medicaid and food stamp cuts.
There is a whole lot to unpack here, but let’s start with Medicaid, which would take the biggest hit of the health programs in this bill — ironically, just weeks before the program’s 60th anniversary. What does this bill do to Medicaid?
Goldman: This bill makes some huge changes to the way that Medicaid is funded and delivered in the United States. One of the biggest changes is the first federal work requirement for Medicaid, which we’ve talked about at length.
Rovner: Pretty much every week.
Goldman: Pretty much every week. It’s going to be — it’s sort of death by paperwork for many people. They’re not necessarily forced to lose their coverage, but there are so many paperwork hurdles and barriers to making sure that you are reporting things correctly, that CBO [the Congressional Budget Office] expects millions of people are going to lose coverage. And we know from limited experiments with work requirements in Arkansas that it does not increase employment. So, that’s the biggie.
Rovner: The House froze provider taxes, which is what most — all states but Alaska? — use to help pay their share of Medicaid. The Senate went even further, didn’t they?
Goldman: Yeah. Hospitals are saying that it’s going to be absolutely devastating to them. When you cut funding, cut reimbursement in that way, cut the amount of money that’s available in that way, it trickles down to the patient, ultimately.
Karlin-Smith: Especially things like the provider tax, but even just the loss to certain health systems of Medicaid patients end up having a spiral effect where it may impact people who are on other health insurance, because these facilities will no longer have that funding to operate the way they are. Particularly some facilities talked about how the Obamacare Medicaid expansion really allowed them to expand their services and beef up. And now if they lose that population, you actually end up with risks of facilities closing. The Senate tried to provide a little bit of money to alleviate that, but I think that’s generally seen as quite small compared to the long-term effects of this bill.
Rovner: Yeah, there’s a $50 billion rural hospital slush fund, if you will, but that’s not going to offset $930 billion in cuts to Medicaid. And it’s important — I know we keep saying this, but it’s important to say again: It’s not just the people who will lose Medicaid who will be impacted, because if these facilities close — we’re talking about hospitals and rural clinics and other facilities that depend on Medicaid — people with all kinds of insurance are going to lack access. I see lots of nods going around.
Goldman: Yeah. One salient example that somebody told me earlier this week was, think about ER wait times. It already takes so long to get seen if you go into the ER. And when people don’t have health insurance, they’re seeking care at the ER because it’s an emergency and they waited until it was an emergency, or that’s just where they feel they can go. But this is going to increase ER wait times for everybody.
Rovner: And also, if nursing homes or other facilities close, people get backed up in the ER because they can’t move into the hospital when they need hospital care, because the hospital can’t discharge the people who are already there. I had sort of forgotten how that the crowded ERs are often a result of things other than too many people in the ER.
Goldman: Right.
Rovner: They’re a result of other strains on sort of the supply chain for care.
Goldman: There’s so many ripple effects and dominoes that are going to fall, if you will.
Rovner: So, there were some things that were in the House bill that, as predicted, didn’t make it into the Senate bill, because the parliamentarian said they violated the budget rules for reconciliation. That included the proposed Medicaid ban on all transgender care for minors and adults, and most of the cuts to states that use their own funds to cover undocumented people. But the parliamentarian ended up kind of splitting the difference on cutting funding to Planned Parenthood, which she had ruled in 2017 Congress couldn’t do in reconciliation. Alice, what happened here?
Ollstein: She decided that one year of cuts was OK, when they had originally sought 10. And the only reason they originally sought 10 is that’s how these bills work. It’s a 10-year budget window. That’s how you calculate things. They sort of meant it to function like a permanent defund. So, the anti-abortion movement was really divided on this outcome, where some were declaring it a big victory and some were saying: Oh, only one year. This is such a disappointment and not what we were promised blah, blah, blah. And it’ll be really interesting to see if even one year does function like a sort of permanent defund.
On the one hand, the anti-abortion movement is worried that because it’s one year, that means they’ll have to vote on it again next year right before the midterms, when people might get more squirrelly because of the politics of it, which obviously still exist now but would be more potent then. But clinics can’t survive without funding for long. We’re already seeing Planned Parenthoods around the country close because of Title X cuts, because of other budget instability. And so once a clinic closes, even if the funding comes back later, it can’t flip a switch and turn it back on. When things close, they close, the staff moves away, etc.
Rovner: And we should emphasize Medicaid has not been used to pay for federal abortion funding ever.
Ollstein: Yes. Yes.
Rovner: That’s part of the Hyde Amendment. So we’re talking about non-abortion services here. We’re talking about contraception, and STD testing and treatment, and cancer screenings, and other types of primary care that almost every Planned Parenthood provides. They don’t all provide abortion, but they all provide these other ancillary services that lots of Medicaid patients use.
Ollstein: Right. And so this will shut down clinics in states where abortion is legal, and it’ll shut down clinics in states where abortion is illegal and these clinics only are providing those other reproductive health services, which are already in scant supply and hard to come by. There’s massive maternity care deserts, contraceptive deserts around the country, and this is set to make that worse.
Rovner: So, while this bill was not painted as a repeal of the Affordable Care Act, unlike the 2017 version, it does do a lot to scale that law back. This has kind of flown under the radar. Maya, you wrote about this. What does this bill do to the ACA?
Goldman: Yeah. Well, so, there were a lot of changes that Congress was seeking to codify from rule that the Trump administration has finalized that really create a lot of extra barriers to enrolling in the ACA. A lot of those did not make it into the final bill that is being voted on, but there’s still more paperwork — death by paperwork. I think there’s preenrollment verification of eligibility, things like that. And I think just in general, the ACA has created massive gains in the insurer population in the United States over the last decade and a half. And there’s estimates that show that this would wipe out three-fourths of that gain. And so that’s just staggering to see that.
Rovner: Yeah. I think people have underestimated the impact that this could have on the ACA. Of course, we’ve talked about this also a million times. This bill does not extend the additional subsidies that were created under the Biden administration, which has basically doubled the number of people who’ve been able to afford coverage and bought it on the marketplaces. But I’ve seen estimates that more than half of the people could actually end up dropping out of ACA coverage.
Goldman: Yeah. And I think it’s important to talk about the timelines here. A lot of the work requirements in Medicaid won’t take effect for a couple of years, but people are going to lose their enhanced subsidies in January. And so we are going to see pretty immediate effects of this.
Rovner: And they’re shortening the enrollment time.
Goldman: Yeah.
Rovner: And people won’t be able to be auto-reenrolled, which is how a lot of people continue on their ACA coverage. There are a lot of little things that I think together add up to a whole lot for the ACA.
Goldman: Right. And Trump administration ACA enrollment barriers that were finalized might not be codified in this law, but they’re still finalized.
Rovner: Yeah.
Goldman: And so they will take effect for 2026 coverage.
Rovner: And while President Trump has said repeatedly that he didn’t want to touch Medicare, this bill ironically is going to do exactly that, because the amount the tax cuts add to the deficit is likely to trigger a Medicare sequester under budget rules. That means there will be automatic cuts to Medicare, probably as soon as next year.
All right, well, that is the moving bill, the One Big Beautiful Bill. One thing that has at least stopped moving for now is the Supreme Court, at least for the moment. The justices wrapped up their formal 2024-2025 term with some pretty significant health-related cases that impact two topics we’re talking about elsewhere in this episode, abortion and vaccines.
First, abortion. The court ruled that Medicaid patients don’t have the right to sue to enforce the section of Medicaid law that ensures free choice of provider. In this case, it frees South Carolina to kick Planned Parenthood out of its Medicaid program. Now, this isn’t about abortion. This is about, as we said, other services that Planned Parenthood provides. But, Alice, what are the ramifications of this ruling?
Ollstein: They could be very big. A lot of states have already tried and are likely to try to cut Planned Parenthood out of their Medicaid programs. And given this federal defund, this is now going after some of their remaining supports, which is state Medicaid programs, which is a separate revenue stream. And so this will just lead to even more clinic closures. And already, this kind of sexual health care is very hard to come by in a lot of places in the country. And that is set to be even more true in the future. And this is sort of the culmination of something that the right has worked towards for a long time. And so they had just a bunch of different strategies and tactics to go after Planned Parenthood in so many ways in the courts, and there’s still more shoes to drop. There’s still court cases pending.
There’s one in Texas that’s accusing Planned Parenthood of defrauding the state, and so that judgment could wipe them out even more. This federal legislative effort, there’s the Supreme Court case — and they’ve really been effective at just throwing everything at the wall and seeing what sticks. And enough is sticking now that the organization is really — they were able to beat back a lot of these attempts before. They were able to rally in Congress. They were able to rally at the state level to push back on a lot of this. And that wasn’t true this time. And so I don’t know what conclusion to take from that. There’s, obviously, people are very overwhelmed. There’s a lot going on. There are organizations getting hit left and right, and maybe this just got lost in the noise this time.
Rovner: Yeah, I think that may be. Well, the other big Supreme Court decision was one we’d talked about quite a bit, the so-called Braidwood case that was challenging the ability of the CDC’s [Center for Disease Control and Prevention’s] Preventive Services Task Force from recommending services that would then be covered by health insurance. This was arguably a win for the Biden administration. The court ruled that the task force members do not need to be confirmed by the Senate. But, Sarah, this also gives Secretary [Robert F.] Kennedy [Jr.] more power to do what he will with other advisory committees, right?
Karlin-Smith: Right. By affirming the way the U.S. Preventive Services Task Force was set up, in that the HHS [Department of Health and Human Services] secretary is ultimately the authority for appointing the task force, which then makes recommendations around what coverage requirements under the ACA. It also sort of affirms the authority of the HHS secretary here. And I think people think it has implications for other bodies like CDC’s advisory committee on vaccines as well, where the secretary has a lot of authority.
So, I think people who really support the coverage advantages that have come through the USPSTF and Obamacare have always pushed for this outcome in this case. But given our current HHS secretary, there are some worries that it might lead to rollbacks or changes in areas of the health care paradigm that he does not support.
Rovner: Well, let us segue to that right now. That is, of course, as you mentioned, the other major CDC advisory committee, the one on immunization practices. When we left off, Secretary Kennedy had broken his promise to Senate health committee chairman Bill Cassidy and fired all 17 members of the committee, replacing them with vaccine skeptics and a couple of outright vaccine deniers. So last week, the newly reconstituted panel held its first meeting. How’d that go?
Karlin-Smith: It was definitely an interesting meeting, different, I think, for people who have watched ACIP [the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices] in the past. Besides just getting rid of the members of the advisory panel, Kennedy also removed a lot of the CDC staff who work on that topic as well. So the CDC staffers who were there and doing their typical presentations were much smaller in number. And for the most part, I think they did a really good job of sticking to the tried-and-true science around these products and really having to grapple with extremely, I think, unusual questions from many of the panelists. But the agenda got shrunk quite a bit, and one of the topics was quite controversial. Basically, they decided to review the ingredient thimerosal, which was largely taken out of vaccines in the late ’90s, early 2000s, but remains in certain larger vials of flu vaccines.
Rovner: It’s a preservative, right? You need something in a multi-dose vaccine vial to keep it from getting contaminated.
Karlin-Smith: And they had a presentation from Lyn Redwood, who was a former leader of the Children’s Health Defense, which is a very anti-vax organization started by Robert Kennedy. The presentation was generally seen as not based in science and evidence, and there was no other presentations, and the committee voted to not really allow flu vaccines with that ingredient.
And the impact in the U.S. here is going to be pretty small because, I think, it’s about 4% of people get vaccines through those large-quantity vials, like if you’re in a nursing home or something like that. But what people are saying, and Scott Gottlieb [Food and Drug Administration commissioner in the first Trump administration] was talking a lot about this last week, was that this is really a hint of what is to come and the types of things they are going to take aim at. And he’s particularly concerned about another, what’s called an adjuvant, which is an ingredient added to vaccines to help make them work better, that’s in a lot of childhood vaccines, that Kennedy hinted at he wanted on the agenda for this meeting. It came off the agenda, but he presumes they will circle back to it. And if companies can’t use that ingredient in their vaccines, he’s not really clear they have anything else that is as good and as safe, and could force them out of the market.
So there were a bunch of hints of things concerning fights to come. The other big one was that they were saying they want to review the totality of the childhood vaccine schedule and the amount of vaccines kids get, which was really a red flag for people who followed the anti-vaccine movement, because anti-vaxxers have a lot of long-debunked claims that kids get too many vaccines, they get them too closer together. And scientists, again, have thoroughly debunked that, but they still push that.
Rovner: And that was something else that Kennedy promised Cassidy he wouldn’t mess with, if I recall correctly, right?
Karlin-Smith: You know, the nature of the agreement between Cassidy and Kennedy keeps getting more confusing to me. And I actually talked to both HHS’ secretary’s office and Cassidy’s office last week about that. And they both don’t actually agree on quite exactly what the terms were. But anyway, I looked at it in terms of the terms, like whether it’s to preserve the recommendations ACIP has made over time in the childhood schedule, whether it’s to preserve the committee members. I think it’s pretty clear that Kennedy has violated the sort of heart of the matter, which is he has gone after safe, effective vaccines and people’s access to vaccines in this country in ways that are likely to be problematic. And there are hints of more to come. He’s also cut off funding for vaccines globally. So, I don’t know. I almost just laugh thinking about what they actually agreed to, but there’s really no way Cassidy can say that Kennedy followed through on his promises.
Rovner: Well, meanwhile, even while ACIP was meeting last week, the HHS secretary was informing the members of Gavi, that’s the Global Alliance for Vaccines and Immunizations, that he was canceling the U.S.’ scheduled billion-dollar contribution because, he said, the public-private partnership that has vaccinated more than a billion children over the past two and a half decades doesn’t take vaccine safety seriously enough. Really?
Karlin-Smith: Yeah. Kennedy has these claims, again, that I think are, very clearly have been, debunked by experts, that Gavi is not thinking clearly about vaccine safety and offering vaccines they shouldn’t be, and the result is going to be huge gaps in what children can get around the globe to vaccines. And it comes on top of all the other cuts the U.S. has made recently to global health in terms of USAID [the U.S. Agency for International Development]. So I think these are going to be big impacts. And they may eventually trickle down to impact the U.S. in ways people don’t expect.
If you think about a virus like covid, which continues to evolve, one of the fears that people have always had is we get a variant that is, as it evolves, that is more dangerous to people and we’re less able to protect with the vaccines we have. If you allow the virus to kind of spread through unvaccinated communities because, say you weren’t providing these vaccines abroad, that increases the risk that we get a bad variant going on. So obviously, we should be concerned, I think, just about the millions of deaths people are saying this could cause globally, but there’s also impacts to our country as well and our health.
Rovner: I know there’s all this talk about soft-power humanitarian assistance and helping other countries, but as long as people can get on airplanes, it’s in our interest that people in other countries don’t get things that can be spread here, too, right?
Goldman: Yeah. One very small comment that was made during the ACIP meeting this week from CDC staff was an update on the measles outbreak, which I just thought was interesting. They said that the outbreak in the South from earlier this year is mostly under control, but people are still bringing in measles from foreign countries. And so that’s very much a real, real threat.
Rovner: Yeah.
Ollstein: It’s the lesson that we just keep not learning again and again, which is if you allow diseases to spread anywhere, it’ll inevitably impact us here. We don’t live on an island. We have a very interconnected world. You can’t have a Well we’re going to only protect our people and nobody else mentality, because that’s just not how it works. And we’re reducing resources to vaccinate people here as well.
Rovner: That’s right. Turning back to abortion, there was other news on that front this week. In Wisconsin, the state Supreme Court formally overturned that state’s 1849 abortion ban. That was the big issue in the Supreme Court election earlier this year. But a couple of other stories caught my eye. One is from NBC News about how crisis pregnancy centers, those anti-abortion facilities that draw women in by offering free pregnancy tests and ultrasounds, are actually advising clinics against offering ultrasounds in some cases after a clinic settled a lawsuit for misdiagnosing a woman’s ectopic pregnancy, thus endangering her life. Alice, if this is a big part of the centers’ draw with these ultrasounds, what’s going on here?
Ollstein: I think it’s a good example. I want to stress that there’s a big variety of quality of medical care at these centers. Some have actual doctors and nurses on staff. Some don’t at all. Some offer good evidence-based care. Some do not. And I have heard from a lot of doctors that patients will come to them with ultrasounds that were incorrectly done or interpreted by crisis pregnancy centers. They were given wrong information about the gestation of their pregnancy, about the viability of their pregnancy. And so this doesn’t surprise me at all, based on what I’ve heard anecdotally.
People should also remember that these centers are not regulated as much as health clinics are. And that goes for things like HIPAA [the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act] as well. They don’t have the same privacy protections for the information people share there. And so I think we should also keep in mind that women might be depending more and more on these going forward as Planned Parenthoods close, as other clinics close because of all the cuts we just talked about. These clinics are really proliferating and are trying to fill that vacuum. And so things like this should keep people questioning the quality of care they provide.
Rovner: Yeah. And of course, layer on top of that the Medicaid cuts. There’s going to be an increased inability to get care, particularly in far-flung areas. You can sort of see how this can sort of all pile onto itself.
Well, the other story that grabbed me this week comes from the Pulitzer Prize-winning team at ProPublica. It’s an analysis of hospital data from Texas that suggests that the state’s total abortion ban is making it more likely that women experiencing early miscarriages may not be getting timely care, and thus are more likely to need blood transfusions or experience other complications. Anti-abortion groups continue to maintain that these bans don’t impact women with pregnancy complications, which are super common, for those who don’t know, particularly early in pregnancy. But experience continues to suggest that that is not the case.
Ollstein: Yeah. This is a follow-up to a lot of really good reporting ProPublica has done. They also showed that sepsis rates in Texas have gone way up in the wake of the abortion ban. And so anti-abortion groups like to point to the state’s report showing how many abortions are still happening in the state because of the medical emergency exceptions, and saying: See? It’s working. People are using the exceptions. And it is true that some people are, but I think that this kind of data shows that a lot of people are not. And again, if it’s with what I hear anecdotally, there’s just a lot of variety on the ground from hospital to hospital, even in the same city, interpreting the law differently. Their legal teams interpret what they can and can’t provide. It could depend on what resources they have. It could depend on whether they’re a public or private hospital, and whether they’re afraid of the state coming after them and their funding.
And so I think this shows that one doctor could say, Yes, I do feel comfortable doing this procedure to save this woman’s life, and another doctor could say, I’m going to wait and see. And then you get the sepsis, the hemorrhage. These are very sensitive situations when even a short delay could really be life-and-death, or be long-term health consequences. People have lost the ability to have more children. We’ve seen stories about that. We’ve seen stories about people having to suffer a lot of health consequences while their doctors figure out what kind of care they can provide.
Rovner: In the case of early miscarriage, the standard of care is to empty the uterus basically to make sure that the bleeding stops, which is either a D&C [dilation and curettage], which of course can also be an early abortion, or using the abortion pill mifepristone and misoprostol, which now apparently doctors are loath to use even in cases of miscarriage. I think that’s sort of the take-home of this story, which is a little bit scary because early miscarriage is really, really, really common.
Ollstein: Absolutely. And this is about the hospital context, which is obviously very important, but I’m also hearing that this is an issue even for outpatient care. So if somebody is having a miscarriage, it’s not severe enough that they have to be hospitalized, but they do need this medication to help it along. And when they go to the pharmacy, their prescription says, “missed abortion” or “spontaneous abortion,” which are the technical terms for miscarriage. But a pharmacist who isn’t aware of that, isn’t used to it, it’s not something they see all the time, they see that and they freak out and they say, Oh, I don’t want to get sued, so they don’t dispense the medication. Or there are delays. They need to call and double-check. And that has been causing a lot of turmoil as well.
Rovner: All right. Well, finally this week, Elon Musk is fighting with President Trump again over the budget reconciliation bill, but the long shadow of DOGE [the Department of Government Efficiency] still lives on in federal agencies. On the one hand, The Washington Post scooped this week that DOGE no longer has control over the Grants.gov website, which controls access to more than half a trillion dollars in federal grant funding. On the other hand, I’m still hearing that money is barely getting out and still has to get multiple approvals from political appointees before it can basically get to where it’s supposed to be going. NPR has a story this week with the ominous headline “‘Where’s Our Money?’ CDC Grant Funding Is Moving So Slowly Layoffs Are Happening.”
I know there’s so much other news happening right now, it’s easy to overlook, but I feel like the public health and health research infrastructure are getting starved to death while the rest of us are looking at shinier objects.
Goldman: Yeah. This the whole flood-the-zone strategy, right? There’s so many things going on that we can’t possibly keep up with all of them, but this is extremely important. I think if you talk to any research scientist that gets federal funding, they would tell you that things have not gotten back to normal. And there’s so much litigation moving through the courts that it’s going to take a really long time before this is settled, period.
Rovner: Yeah. We did see yet another court decision this week warning that the layoffs at HHS were illegal. But a lot of these layoffs happened so long ago that these people have found other jobs or put their houses up for sale. You can’t quite put this toothpaste back in the tube.
Goldman: Right. And also, with this particular ruling, this came from a Rhode Island federal judge, a Biden appointee, so it wasn’t very surprising. But it said that the reorganization plan of HHS was illegal. Or, not illegal, it was a temporary injunction on the reorganization plan and said HHS cannot place anyone else on administrative leave. But it doesn’t require them to rehire the employees that have been laid off, which is also interesting.
Rovner: Yeah. Well, we will continue to monitor that. All right, that is as much as this week’s news as we have time for. Now it’s time for our extra-credit segment. That’s where we each recognize a story we read this week we think you should read, too. Don’t worry if you miss it. We will put the links in our show notes on your phone or other mobile device. Sarah, you were first to choose this week. Why don’t you go first?
Karlin-Smith: I took a look at a Wired piece from Will Bahr, “Snake Venom, Urine, and a Quest To Live Forever: Inside a Biohacking Conference Emboldened by MAHA.” And it is about a conference in Texas kind of designed to sell you products that they claim might help you live to 180 or more. A lot of what appears to be people essentially preying on people’s fears of mortality, aging, death to sell things that do not appear to be scientifically tested or validated by agencies like FDA. The founder even talks about using his own purified urine to treat his allergies. They’re microdosing snake venom. And it does seem like RFK is sort of emboldening this kind of way of thinking and behavior.
One of the things I felt was really interesting about the story is the author can’t quite pin down what unites all of these people in their interests in this space. In many cases, they claim there are sort of — there’s not a political element to it. But since I cover the pharma industry very closely, they all seem disappointed with mainstream medical systems and the pharma industry with the U.S., and they are seeking other avenues. But it’s quite an interesting look at the types of things they are willing to try to extend their lives.
Rovner: Yeah, it is quite the story. Maya, why don’t you go next?
Goldman: My extra credit this week is from my Axios colleague Tina Reed. It’s called “New Docs Get Schooled in Old Diseases as Vaxx Rates Fall.” And it’s all about how medical schools are adjusting their curriculum to teach students to spend more time on measles and things that we have considered to be wiped out in the United States. And I think it just — it really goes to show that this is something that is real and that’s actually happening. People are coming to emergency rooms and hospitals with these illnesses, and young doctors need to learn about them. We already have so many things to learn in medical school that there’s certainly a trade-off there.
Rovner: There is, indeed. And Alice, you have a related story.
Ollstein: Yes, I do. So, this is from The New York Times. It’s called “‘I Feel I’ve Been Lied To’: When a Measles Outbreak Hits Home,” by Eli Saslow. And it’s about the measles outbreak that originated in Texas. But what I think it does a really good job at is, we’ve talked a lot about how people have played up the dangers of vaccines and exaggerated them and, in some cases, outright lied about them, and how that’s influencing people, fear of autism, etc., fear of these adverse reactions. But I think this piece really shows that the other side of that coin is how much some of those same voices have downplayed measles and covid.
And so we have this situation where people are too afraid of the wrong things — vaccines — and not afraid enough of the right things — measles and these diseases. And so in the story people who are just, including people with some medical training, being shocked at how bad it is, at how healthy kids are really suffering and needing hospitalization and needing to be put on oxygen. And that really clashes with the message from this administration, which has really downplayed that and said it’s mainly hitting people who were already unhealthy or already had preexisting conditions, which is not true. It can hit other people. And so, yeah, I think it’s a very nuanced look at that.
Rovner: Yeah, it’s a really extraordinary story. My extra credit this week is from the medical journal The Lancet. And I won’t read the entire title or its multiple authors, because that would take the rest of the podcast. But I will summarize it by noting that it finds that funding provided by the U.S. Agency for International Development, which officially closed up shop this week after being basically illegally dissolved by the Trump administration, has saved more than 90 million lives over the past two decades. And if the cuts made this year are not restored, an additional 14 million people will die who might not have otherwise. Far from the Trump administration’s claims that USAID has little to show for its work, this study suggests that the agency has had an enormous impact in reducing deaths from HIV and AIDS, from malaria and other tropical diseases, as well as those other diseases afflicting less developed nations. We’ll have to see how much if any of those services will be maintained or restored.
OK. That’s this week’s show. Thanks to our editor, Emmarie Huetteman, and our producer-engineer, Francis Ying. As always, if you enjoy the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left us a review. That helps other people find us, too. Also, as always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org. You can find me on X, @jrovner, or on Bluesky, @julierovner. Where are you guys these days? Sarah?
Karlin-Smith: I’m a little bit on X, mostly on Bluesky, at @SarahKarlin or @sarahkarlin-smith.
Rovner: Alice?
Ollstein: Mostly on Bluesky, @alicemiranda. Still a little bit on X, @AliceOllstein.
Rovner: Maya.
Goldman: I am on X, @mayagoldman_, and also on LinkedIn. You can just find me under my name.
Rovner: We will be back in your feed next week. Until then, be healthy.
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