When the first Humira biosimilar — essentially a generic version — finally hit the market in January, it came with an unpleasant surprise. The biosimilar’s maker, Amgen, launched two versions of the drug, which treats a host of conditions including rheumatoid arthritis. They were identical in every way but this: One was priced at about $1,600 for a two-week supply, 55% off Humira’s list price. But the other was priced at around $3,300, only about 5% off. And OptumRx, one of three powerhouse brokers that determine which drugs Americans get, recommended option No. 2: the more expensive version.

As Murdo Gordon, an Amgen executive vice president, explained in an earnings call, the higher price enabled his company to give bigger rebates, or post-sale discounts, to Optum and other intermediaries. Most of that money would be passed on to insurers, and patients, he said. Gordon did not mention that the higher-priced option would leave some patients paying much more out-of-pocket, undermining the whole rationale for generic drugs.

The Optum-Amgen announcements perfectly elucidated why, after years of thundering against drugmakers, Congress and the administration have now focused on regulating the deal-makers known as pharmacy benefit managers, or PBMs. Sen. Bernie Sanders’ health committee grilled a panel of PBM and pharmaceutical executives Wednesday in preparation for a vote on PBM legislation, expected Thursday.

The three biggest PBMs — OptumRx, CVS Caremark, and Express Scripts — control about 80% of prescription drug sales in America and are the most profitable parts of the health conglomerates in which they’re nestled. CVS Health, the fourth-largest U.S. corporation by revenue on Fortune’s list, owns CVS Caremark and the insurer Aetna; UnitedHealth Group, a close fifth, owns Optum; and Cigna, ranking 12th, owns Express Scripts. While serving as middlemen among drugmakers, insurers, and pharmacies, the three corporations also own the highest-grossing specialty drug and mail-order pharmacies.

“John D. Rockefeller would be happy to be alive today,” said David Balto, a former Federal Trade Commission attorney who represents clients suing PBMs. “He could own a PBM and monopolize economic power in ways he never imagined.”

Drug manufacturers claim that exorbitant PBM demands for rebates force them to set high list prices to earn a profit. Independent pharmacists say PBMs are driving them out of business. Physicians blame them for unpredictable, clinically invalid prescribing decisions. And patients complain that PBMs’ choices drain their pocketbooks.

With PBMs driving prices, competition has had the opposite effect from what economic theory predicted Medicare patients would spend out-of-pocket on drugs, one large study showed. Over a five-year period, patients were paying 50% more for branded drugs that had competitors than for those that didn’t.

All this makes the PBMs ripe targets for politicians of both parties. Yet the complexity and obscurity of their role in the drug marketplace have skeptics wondering whether legislation advancing in the House and Senate will actually help patients or lower prices at the pharmacy counter.

“We may try to make things better and actually make things worse,” Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) said at Wednesday’s hearing.

The PBMs pass along most of their rebates to health plans, which will bear a larger share of patient drug costs in coming years under Medicare changes that are part of the 2022 Inflation Reduction Act. It’s likely that pressure on insurers will be passed along to PBMs and result in even more aggressive limits on physician prescription decisions, said Troyen Brennan, an adjunct Harvard University professor who was chief medical officer for CVS Health from 2008 to 2022.

Several congressional bills target drug company rebates to PBMs and what’s known as “spread pricing” — the extra money PBMs collect from insurers over what they pay pharmacies for drugs.

But those aren’t the big PBM revenue sources anymore, Brennan said. PBMs today mostly make money by owning mail-order and specialty pharmacies and from the government’s 340B program, created to help hospitals that treat a disproportionately elderly and poor population. Medicare requires drugmakers to provide big discounts to participating hospitals and the growing rosters of affiliated physician groups they own, and some of those discounts end up with PBMs.

Employers and the federal government decide where most of the rebate money goes, PBM leaders testified Wednesday — and health plans decide what out-of-pocket costs their covered members will pay.

In other words, drug companies blame PBMs for high drug counter prices, PBMs blame insurers, and insurers blame the drug companies, all part of a health care system that hinges on an unspoken bargain: Make life comfortable for some — mostly the upper and middle classes — at the expense of lower-income and poorly insured people who get what they get.

 PBMs’ extraction of money from patients in the name of “copayments” at the pharmacy counter “reintroduces medical underwriting” that was stripped away by the Affordable Care Act, Craig Garthwaite, a health care researcher at Northwestern’s Kellogg School of Management, told a Senate panel last year. Insurers can no longer pick and choose whom to insure, as they could before the landmark 2010 health law. But they are finding ways to make the sickest pay.

“People with expensive conditions are paying more for insurance so healthy people can pay less,” he said.

PBMs Evolve From Minnows to Whales

In 1967, a year before the first PBM was founded, spending on prescription drugs outside of a hospital in the U.S. totaled around $3.3 billion, compared with more than $600 billion in net payments last year. By 2005, when Medicare expanded to include coverage of outpatient drugs, government and private insurers depended on PBMs’ negotiating power to keep rising drug prices in check.

The Federal Trade Commission and Justice Department allowed the largest PBMs to gobble up competitors and merge with insurers during the Bush and Obama administrations on the grounds that bolstering their powers might rein in prices. The FTC fought state investigations of anti-competitive behavior, saying that pressure on PBMs would benefit consumers.

The FTC under President Joe Biden has switched course, at least partly because of the arrival of Chair Lina Khan, a vigorous proponent of antitrust policy who launched an investigation of the PBMs last June.

It came partly at the request of independent pharmacists, who rely on PBM reimbursements for the drugs they purchase and provide consumers. Thousands of pharmacists complained to the FTC that PBMs force them to accept unfairly low reimbursements — then slam them with opaque rules requiring them to pay back some of the money months later. Pharmacists returned $12.6 billion to PBMs in 2021, according to a recent Medicare Payment Advisory Commission report.

During a recent week, said Ashley Seyfarth, who owns Kare Drug in Aztec, New Mexico, a PBM reclaimed money from one prescription because the paperwork was faxed. It clawed back cash from another sale because Kare had kept the drug on the shelf an extra day, beyond the PBM’s time limit, to accommodate a patient delayed getting to the store.

And her reimbursements are “beyond low,” Seyfarth said. She laughed when asked whether contract terms with the PBMs were negotiable. “You aren’t negotiating anything,” she said. “It’s take it or leave it.”

PBMs “have the right to audit whether contract terms are agreed to,” Angela Banks, vice president of policy at the Pharmaceutical Care Management Association, the PBM trade group, said at a recent conference. “A lot of the complaints about PBMs come from two parties from whom we are extracting money: manufacturers and pharmacists.”

PBM pricing decisions are often murky. According to a recent study, in 2018 Medicare spent $2.6 billion more through PBMs for a year’s worth of 184 generic drugs than they would have cost at Costco. Doctors and hospitals find PBM formularies baffling, with dozens of variations depending on a patient’s health plan.

When Philadelphia-area internist Amy Davis writes a prescription, she has no idea what the pharmacy will bill her patients, she said, or whether a PBM has decided the drug needs prior authorization. Sometimes she doesn’t find out until a patient returns months later saying they skipped the drug because it was too expensive.

“We physicians are completely in the dark,” she said. “And it’s designed that way.”

The PBMs’ growing use of proprietary pharmacies, including mail-order operations, can interfere with the care of patients like Jasmine St. Clair, a 45-year-old restaurant manager and mother of six in Mount Juliet, Tennessee.

In October 2021, St. Clair’s treatment for a rare, non-smoking-related lung cancer was delayed three weeks after PBM giant Express Scripts insisted her prescription be filled by Accredo, the mail-order pharmacy it owns.

In the meantime, her fatigue and lower-back and neck pain became so bad “I couldn’t pick up my daughter, who was 2,” St. Clair said. “And I was really getting scared.”

After St. Clair started the four-pills-twice-a-day regimen, her tumor rapidly shrank. But in January, her husband’s insurance changed and the medications didn’t arrive on time. When she called Accredo to see what was wrong, “they said, ‘You owe $8,000. Would you like to pay by card?’”

The pharmacy attached to her oncology practice straightened out the payment issue and ensured her continued use of the drug, St. Clair said. Her oncologist, Johnetta Blakely, said these are daily occurrences in her practice.

“The problem with the PBMs and the specialty pharmacies they own is that they are so complicated and intertwined it’s hard to figure out what the heck they are doing,” Blakely said. “All this bureaucratic stuff is a distraction and takes away from things I could be doing, like asking Jasmine about her kids.”

What’s the Remedy?

Bipartisan House and Senate bills would require PBMs to reimburse pharmacies serving Medicaid patients based on an authorized price list, rather than using standards that allegedly allow PBMs to lowball pharmacies. The Congressional Budget Office has estimated the bills would save the federal government $1 billion over 10 years. Another Senate bill would require PBMs to report more of their earnings to the FTC, and would ban deceptive and unfair fees.

But PBMs have shown themselves adept at finding ways around regulation. A federal rule scheduled to take effect next year would curtail PBM “clawbacks” on independent pharmacies. But PBM contracts sent out to pharmacies in recent weeks get around that by lowering reimbursement fees and putting a percentage of their payments to pharmacies into a kind of escrow, said Douglas Hoey, CEO of the National Community Pharmacists Association.

When the Trump administration considered banning brand-name drug rebates in 2017, PBMs set up companies in Ireland and Switzerland to take over the negotiations and purchases. Doing so offered a tax advantage and allowed the PBMs to avoid scrutiny of the quantity and nature of those deals. Recently, Express Scripts set up another company to purchase generic drugs, in the Cayman Islands.

And PBMs appear adept at moving money from one pocket to another. “Yesterday’s rebates are today’s fees and potentially tomorrow’s something else,” said John O’Brien, CEO of the pharmaceutical industry-funded research group, the National Pharmaceutical Council.

Every arrangement that PBMs make with manufacturers, employers, and insurers is secret and proprietary, said Barak Richman, a Duke University Law School professor. This makes it nearly impossible to examine what kind of deals PBMs are making.

Antitrust law could be brought to bear on the PBMs, Richman said. And the Biden administration has shown an eagerness to possibly reverse mergers that have increased PBM clout. The Justice Department has taken similar steps.

But federal officials will have to move fast to slow the PBMs. Insurers that don’t have PBMs as part of their business have been shrinking in recent years because of the growing clout and buying power of the companies.

“I predict that any health insurer that doesn’t have a PBM is going to disappear in 10 years,” said Neeraj Sood, a professor at the University of Southern California Sol Price School of Public Policy. “Otherwise, there is no way to compete with the big three.”

KFF Health News is a national newsroom that produces in-depth journalism about health issues and is one of the core operating programs at KFF—an independent source of health policy research, polling, and journalism. Learn more about KFF.

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Julie Rovner is chief Washington correspondent and host of KFF Health News’ weekly health policy news podcast, “What the Health?” A noted expert on health policy issues, Julie is the author of the critically praised reference book “Health Care Politics and Policy A to Z,” now in its third edition.

If Congress fails to raise the nation’s debt ceiling in the next few months, the U.S. could default on its debt for the first time in history. Republicans in Congress, however, say they won’t agree to pay the nation’s bills unless Democrats and President Joe Biden agree to deep cuts to health and other programs. Among the proposals in a bill House Republicans passed April 26 is the imposition of new work requirements for adults who receive Medicaid.

Meanwhile, many of the states passing restrictions on abortion are also passing bills to restrict the ability of trans people to get health care. The two movements — both largely aimed at conservative evangelicals, a key GOP constituency — have much in common.

This week’s panelists are Julie Rovner of KFF Health News, Jessie Hellmann of CQ Roll Call, Shefali Luthra of The 19th, and Sarah Karlin-Smith of the Pink Sheet.

Panelists

Jessie Hellmann
CQ Roll Call

@jessiehellmann

Read Jessie's stories

Shefali Luthra
The 19th

@Shefalil

Read Shefali's stories

Sarah Karlin-Smith
Pink Sheet

@SarahKarlin

Read Sarah's stories

Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:

• The Republican-controlled House’s proposal to raise the debt ceiling contains enough politically poisonous measures that the plan is a non-starter in the Senate. They include substantial funding cuts to major federal health programs, including the FDA and the National Institutes of Health — cuts that would force the federal government to cut back on grants and other funding.
• The proposal would also impose work requirements on adults enrolled in Medicaid — which covers low-income and disabled Americans, as well as pregnant women — and in the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, which helps needy families buy food. Under the plan, the government would save money by cutting the number of people helped. But most beneficiaries cannot work or already do so. Experience shows the change would mostly affect people who struggle to report their work hours through what can be complicated online portals.
• Multiple congressional committees have released plans to fight high drug costs, promoting efforts to explore how pharmacy benefit managers make decisions about cost and access, as well as to encourage access to cheaper, generic drugs on the market. And during congressional testimony this week, the administrator of the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services, Chiquita Brooks-LaSure, said the agency would no longer issue warnings to hospitals that fail to comply with a law that requires them to post their prices, but instead would move directly to fining the holdouts.
• Also in news about cost-cutting legislation, a plan to address an expensive glitch in Medicare payments to hospital outpatient centers and physician offices is gaining steam on Capitol Hill. Hospital consolidation has helped increase costs in the health care system, and lawmakers are eager to keep health spending under control. But the hospital industry is ramping up advertising to make sure lawmakers think twice before legislating.
• In abortion news, it will likely be at least a year before the Supreme Court rules on whether the abortion pill mifepristone should remain accessible. Some justices suggested in last summer’s Dobbs decision, which overturned abortion rights, that they would leave further abortion questions to the states, yet the nation is finding that overturning a half-century of legal precedent is messy, to say the least. Meanwhile, reporting and polling are revealing just how difficult it is for doctors in states with abortion bans to determine what constitutes a “medical emergency” worthy of intervention, with a grim consensus emerging that apparently means “when a woman is near death.”

Also this week, Rovner interviews Renuka Rayasam, who wrote the latest KFF Health News-NPR “Bill of the Month” feature, about a pregnant woman experiencing a dangerous complication who was asked to pay $15,000 upfront to see one of the few specialists who could help her. If you have an outrageous or exorbitant medical bill you want to share with us, you can do that here.

Plus, for “extra credit,” the panelists suggest health policy stories they read this week that they think you should read, too:

Julie Rovner: The Nation’s “The Poison Pill in the Mifepristone Lawsuit That Could Trigger a National Abortion Ban,” by Amy Littlefield.

Shefali Luthra: The Washington Post’s “The Conservative Campaign to Rewrite Child Labor Laws,” by Jacob Bogage and María Luisa Paúl.

Jessie Hellmann: Politico’s “Gun Violence Is Actually Worse in Red States. It’s Not Even Close,” by Colin Woodard.

Sarah Karlin-Smith: The Wall Street Journal’s “Weight-Loss Drugmakers Lobby for Medicare Coverage,” by Liz Essley Whyte.

Also mentioned in this week’s episode:

• In Oklahoma, a Woman Was Told to Wait Until She’s ‘Crashing’ for Abortion Care,” by Selena Simmons-Duffin.
• Anti-Trans Bills Have Doubled Since 2022. Our Map Shows Where States Stand,” by Annys Shin, N. Kirkpatrick, and Anne Branigin.

click to open the transcript

Transcript: Dancing Under the Debt Ceiling

KFF Health News’ ‘What the Health?’

Episode Title: Dancing Under the Debt Ceiling

Episode Number: 295

Published: April 27, 2023

[Editor’s note: This transcript, generated using transcription software, has been edited for style and clarity.]

Julie Rovner: Hello and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Julie Rovner, chief Washington correspondent at KFF Health News. And I’m joined by some of the best and smartest health reporters in Washington. We’re taping this week on Thursday, April 27, at 10 a.m. As always, news happens fast — really fast this week — and things might have changed by the time you hear this. So here we go. We are joined today via video conference by Jessie Hellmann of CQ Roll Call.

Jessie Hellmann: Good morning.

Rovner: Sarah Karlin-Smith, the Pink Sheet.

Sarah Karlin-Smith: Hi, everybody.

Rovner: And Shefali Luthra of The 19th.

Shefali Luthra: Hello.

Rovner: Later in this episode, we’ll have our KFF Health News-NPR “Bill of the Month” interview with Renuka Rayasam. This month’s patient had a happy ending medically, but a not-so-happy ending financially. But first, the news. We’re going to start this week with the budget and, to be specific, the nation’s debt ceiling, which will put the U.S. in default if it’s not raised sometime in the next several weeks, not to panic anyone. House Republicans, who have maintained all along that they won’t allow the debt ceiling to be raised unless they get spending cuts in return, managed to pass — barely — a bill that would raise the debt ceiling enough to get to roughly the middle of next year. It has no chance in the Senate, but it’s now the Republicans’ official negotiating position, so we should talk about what’s in it. It starts with a giant cut to discretionary spending programs. In health care that includes things like the National Institutes of Health, most public health programs, and the parts of the FDA that aren’t funded by user fees. I mean, these are big cuts, yes?

Hellmann: Yeah, it’s about a 14% cut to some of these programs. It’s kind of hard to know exactly what that would mean. But yeah, it’s a big cut and there would have to be, like, a lot of changes made, especially to a lot of health care programs, because that’s where a lot of spending happens.

Rovner: Yeah, I mean, sometimes they’ll agree on cuts and it’ll be like a 1% across the board, which itself can be a lot of money. But I mean, these are, these are sort of really deep cuts that would seriously hinder the ability of these programs to function, right?

Karlin-Smith: NIH for a number of years was operating on only getting budget increases that were not keeping up kind of with inflation and so forth. And they just finally, over the last few years, got back on track. Even though their budget seemed like it was going up, really, if you adjusted for inflation, it had been going down. And then when you have an agency like FDA, which, the line is always that they do an incredible amount of work on really a shoestring budget for the amount they regulate, so they never get — NIH sometimes gets, you know, that bipartisan popularity and does get those bigger increases back, and they never really get those big increases, so I think it would be harder for them also to get that back later on if they did get such big cuts.

Hellmann: There are like also a lot of health programs that just operate on flat funding from year to year, like Title X.

Rovner: Yeah, the family planning program.

Hellmann: And so obviously, like HHS said last year, We are only able to fund a certain number of providers, like, less than previously, because of inflation, and stuff like that. So obviously if you take a 14% cut to that, it would make it even harder.

Rovner: All right. Another major proposal in the package would institute or expand work requirements for people on food stamps and on Medicaid. Now, we’ve had work rules for people on welfare since the 1990s, but most people on Medicaid and food stamps, for that matter, either already work or can’t work for some reason. Why are the Republicans so excited about expanding or instituting work requirements?

Hellmann: I think there are a few reasons. No. 1, it’s a big money saver. The CBO [Congressional Budget Office] came out with their analysis this week showing that it would save the federal government about $109 billion. A lot of that would be shifted to the states because the way the bill is written, states would still be allowed to cover these individuals if they can’t prove that they’re working. But they’d have to pick up the costs themselves, which, I’ve seen experts questioning if that would really happen, even in states like, you know, New York and California, who probably wouldn’t want these people to lose coverage. But I think an argument that you hear a lot too, especially during the Trump administration when they were really pushing these, is they say that work is what provides fulfillment and dignity to people. Former CMS [Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services] administrator Seema Verma talked about this a lot. The argument I heard a lot on the Hill this week is that Medicaid and other — SNAP [Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program], TANF [Temporary Assistance for Needy Families], programs like that — trap people in poverty and that work requirements will kind of give them an incentive to get jobs. But as you said, like, it wouldn’t apply to most — you know, most people are already working. And most people who lost coverage under some of the previous iterations of this just didn’t know about it or they were unable to complete the reporting requirements.

Rovner: And to be clear, the CBO estimate is not so much because people would work and they wouldn’t need it anymore. It’s because people are likely to lose their coverage because they can’t meet the bureaucratic requirements to prove that they’re working. Shefali, you’re nodding. We’ve seen this before, right?

Luthra: I was just thinking, I mean, the savings, yes, they come from people losing their health insurance. That’s very obvious. Of course, you save money when you pay for fewer people’s coverage. And you’re absolutely right: “This will motivate people to work” argument has always been a little bit — complicated is a generous word. I think you could even say it’s a bit thin just because people do already work.

Rovner: And they — many of them work, they don’t earn enough money, really, to bring them out of poverty. And they don’t have jobs that offer health insurance. That’s the only way they’re going to get health insurance. All right. Well, where do we go from here with the debt ceiling? So now we’ve got this Republican plan that says work — everybody has to work and prove that they work and we’re going to cut all these programs — and the Democrats saying this is not a discussion for the debt ceiling, this is a separate discussion that should happen down the road on the budget. Is there any sign that either side is going to give here?

Hellmann: It doesn’t seem like it. Democrats have been saying, like, this is a non-starter. The president has been saying, like, we’re not going to negotiate on this; we want a clean increase in the debt ceiling, and we can talk about some of these other proposals that you want to pursue later. But right now, it seems like both sides are kind of at a standstill. And I think Republicans see, like, passing this bill yesterday as a way to kind of strengthen their hand and show that they can get all on the same page. But I just do not see the Senate entertaining a 14% cut or, like, Medicaid work requirements or any of this stuff that is just kind of extremely toxic, even to some, like, moderate Democrats over there.

Rovner: Yeah, I think this is going to go on for a while. Well, so at this high level, we’ve got this huge partisan fight going on. But interestingly, this week elsewhere on Capitol Hill things seem surprisingly almost bipartisan, dare I say. Starting in the Senate, the chairman and the ranking member of the Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee, Democrat Bernie Sanders and Republican Bill Cassidy, announced that they’ve reached agreement on a series of bills aimed at reining in prescription drug costs for consumers, including one to more closely regulate pharmacy benefit managers and others to further promote the availability of generic drugs. Sarah, we’ve talked about the target on the backs of PBMs this year. What would this bill do and what are the chances of it becoming law?

Karlin-Smith: So this bill does three things: One is transparency. They want to pull back the cover and get more data and information from PBMs so that they can better understand how they’re working. So I think the idea would then be to take future policy action, because one of the criticisms of this industry is it’s so opaque it’s hard to know if they’re really doing the right thing in terms of serving their customers and trying to save money and drug prices as they say they are. The other thing is it would basically require a lot of the fees and rebates PBMs get on drug prices to be given back directly to the health plan, which is sort of interesting because the drug industry has argued that money should be given more directly to patients who are paying for those drugs. And when that has scored by the CBO, that often costs money because that leads to PBMs using less money to lower people’s premiums, and premiums are subsidized from the government. So I’m curious if the reason why they designed the bill this way is to sort of get around that, although then I’m not sure exactly if you get the same individual … [unintelligible] … level benefit from it. And then the third thing they do is they want to eliminate spread pricing, which is where — this is really a pharmacy issue — where PBMs basically reimburse pharmacies less than they’re charging the health plans and, you know, their customers for the drug and kind of pocketing the difference. So I think, from what I’m seeing on the Hill, there’s a ton of momentum to tackle PBMs. And like you said, it’s bipartisan. Whether it’s this bill or which particular bills it’s hard to know, because Senate Finance Committee is sort of working on their own plan. A number of committees in the House are looking at it, other parts of the Senate. So to me, it seems like there’s reasonable odds that something gets done maybe this spring or summer on PBMs. But it’s hard to know, like, the exact shape of the final legislation. It’s pretty early at this point to figure out exactly how it all, you know, teases out.

Rovner: We have seen in the past things that are very bipartisan get stuck nonetheless. Well, across the Capitol, meanwhile, the House Energy and Commerce Committee is also looking at bipartisan issues in health care, including — as they are in the Senate — how to increase price transparency and competition, which also, I hasten to add, includes regulating PBMs. But, Jessie, there was some actual news out of the hearing at Energy and Commerce from Chiquita Brooks-LaSure, who runs the federal Medicare and Medicaid programs. What did she say?

Hellmann: So they’ve instituted two fines against hospitals that haven’t been complying with the price transparency requirements. So I think that brings the number of hospitals that they’ve fined to, like, less than five. Please fact-check that, but I’m pretty sure that I can count it on one hand.

Rovner: One hand. They have, they have actually fined a small number of hospitals under the requirement. Yeah. I mean, we’ve known — we’ve talked about this for a while, that these rules have been in effect since the beginning of 2022, right? And a lot of hospitals have just been not doing it or they’re supposed to be showing their prices in a consumer-understandable way. And a lot of them just haven’t been. And I assume CMS is not happy with this.

Hellmann: Yeah, so Brooks-LaSure said yesterday that CMS is no longer going to issue warnings for hospitals that aren’t making a good-faith effort to comply with these rules. Instead, they’ll move straight to what’s called the corrective action phase, where basically hospitals are supposed to, like, say what they’re going to do to comply with these. And after that, they could get penalized. So we’ll see if that actually encourages hospitals to comply. One of the fines that they issued is like $100,000. And so I think some hospitals are viewing this, you know, as a cost of doing business because they think it would cost them more to comply with the price transparency rules than it would to not comply with them.

Rovner: So transparency here is still a work in progress. There’s also a fight in the House over the very wonky-sounding site-neutral payment policy in Medicare, which, like the surprise bill legislation from a few years back, is not so much a partisan disagreement as a fight between various sectors in the health care system. Can you explain what this is and what the fight’s about?

Hellmann: So basically hospital outpatient departments or, like, physician offices owned by hospitals get paid more than, like, independent physician’s offices for providing things like X-rays or drug administration and stuff like that. And so this is —

Rovner: But the same care. I mean, if you get it in a hospital outpatient or a doctor’s office, the hospital outpatient clinic gets paid more.

Hellmann: Yeah. And there’s not much evidence that shows that the care is any different or the quality is better in a hospital. And so this has kind of been something that’s been getting a lot of attention this year as people are looking for ways to reduce Medicare spending. It would save billions of dollars over 10 years, I think one think tank estimated about 150 billion over 10 years. It’s getting a lot of bipartisan interest, especially as we talk more about consolidation in hospitals, you know, buying up these physician practices, kind of rebranding them and saying, OK, this is outpatient department now, we get paid more for this. There are fewer independent physician’s offices than there used to be, and members have taken a really big interest in how consolidation increases health care prices, especially from hospitals. So it does seem like something that could pass. I will say that there is a lot of heat coming from the hospital industry. They released an ad on Friday last week warning about Medicare cuts, so, they usually do whenever anyone talks about anything that could hurt their bottom lines. Very generalist ad and kind of those “Mediscare” ads that we’ve been talking about. So it’ll be interesting to see if members can withstand the heat from such a powerful lobbying force.

Rovner: As we like to say, there’s a hospital in every single district, and most of them give money to members of Congress, so anything that has the objection of the hospital industry has an uphill battle. So we’ll see how this one plays out. Let us turn to abortion. The fate of the abortion pill mifepristone is still unclear, although the Supreme Court did prevent even a temporary suspension of its approval, as a lower court would have done. Now the case is back at the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals, which has swiftly scheduled a hearing for May 17. But it still could be months or even years before we know how this is going to come out, right, Shefali?

Luthra: It absolutely could be. So the fastest that we could expect to see this case before the Supreme Court again, just — what from folks I’ve talked to is, I mean, we have this hearing May 17, depending on how quickly the 5th Circuit rules, depending on how they rule, there is a chance that we could see if we get, for instance, an unfriendly ruling toward mifepristone, the federal government could appeal to the Supreme Court this summer. We could see if the Supreme Court is willing to take the case. The earliest that means that they would hear it would be this fall, with a decision in the spring a year from now, but that would be quite fast. I think what’s striking about it is that we may all recall last year, when the Supreme Court issued its decision in the Dobbs case, they said this will put the issue of abortion back in the hands of the states, out of the judiciary, we will no longer be involved. And anyone at the time could have told you there’s no way that this would happen because it is too complicated of an issue, when you undo 50 years of precedent, to assume there will be no more legal questions. And here we are. Those critics have been proven right, because who could have seen that, once again, we’d have the courts being asked to step in and answer more questions about what it means when a 50-year right is suddenly gone?

Rovner: Indeed. And of course, we have the … [unintelligible] … This is going to be my next question, about whether this really is all going to be at the state level or it’s going to be at the state and the federal level. So as red states are rushing to pass as many restrictions as they can, some Republicans seem to be recognizing that their party is veering into dangerously unpopular territory, as others insist on pressing on. We saw a great example of this over the weekend. Former vice president and longtime anti-abortion activist Mike Pence formally split on the issue with former President Trump, with Pence calling for a federal ban and not just leaving the issue to the states. Nikki Haley, the former governor of South Carolina and the lone woman in the Republican field so far, managed to anger both sides with the speech she made at the headquarters of the hard-line anti-abortion group the Susan B. Anthony List. Haley’s staff had suggested ahead of time that she would try to lay out a middle ground, but she said almost nothing specific, which managed to irritate both full abortion abolitionists and those who support more restrained action. Is this going to be a full-fledged war in the Republican Party?

Luthra: I think it has to be. I mean, the anti-abortion group is still very powerful in the Republican Party. If you would like to win the nomination, you would like their support. That is why we know that Ron DeSantis pursued a six-week ban in Florida despite it being incredibly unpopular, despite it now alienating many people who would be his donors. This is just too important of a constituency to annoy. But unfortunately, you can’t really compromise on national abortion policy if you’re running for president. A national ban, no matter what week you pick, it’s not a good sound bite. We saw what happened last year when Sen. Lindsey Graham put forth his national 15-week ban: Virtually no other even Republicans wanted to endorse that, because it’s a toxic word to say, especially in this post-Dobbs environment, especially now that we have all of this polling, including NPR polling from yesterday, that showed us that abortion bans remain quite unpopular and that people don’t trust Republicans largely on this issue. I think this is going to be incredibly interesting because we are going to eventually have to see Nikki Haley take a stance. We will have to see Donald Trump, I think, frankly, be a bit more committal than he has been, because meanwhile, he has lately told people publicly that he would not issue any federal policy, would leave this up to the states, we also know that he has said different things in other conversations. And at some point those conflicts are going to come to a head. And what Republicans realize is that their party’s stance and the stance they need to take to maintain favor with this important group is just not a winning issue for most voters. People don’t want abortion banned.

Rovner: Yeah, it’s a real problem. And Republicans are seeing they have no idea how to sort of get out of this box canyon, if you will. Well, back in the states, things seem to be getting even more restrictive. In Oklahoma this week NPR has another of those wrenching stories about pregnant women unable to get emergency health care. This time, a woman, a mom of three kids already with a nonviable and cancerous pregnancy who was told literally to wait in the hospital parking lot until she was close enough to death to obtain needed care. And that case turned out not to be an outlier. A quote-unquote “secret shopper” survey of hospitals in Oklahoma found that a majority of the 34 hospitals contacted could not articulate what their policy was in case of pregnancy complications or how they would determine if the pregnant person’s life was actually in danger. I can’t imagine Oklahoma is the only state where this is the case. We have a lot of these bans and no idea where sort of the lines are, even if they have exceptions.

Luthra: We know that this is not isolated to Oklahoma. There is a lawsuit in Texas right now with a group of women suing the state because they could not access care that would save their lives. One of those plaintiffs testified in Congress about this yesterday. Doctors in virtually every state with an abortion ban have said that they do not know what the medical exceptions really are in practice other than that they have to wait until people are on death’s door because there isn’t — medical emergency isn’t really a technical term. These bills, now laws, were written without the expertise of actual physicians or clinicians because they were never really supposed to take effect. This really has been just another example of a way that the dog chased the car and now the dog has the car.

Rovner: And the dog has no idea what to do with the car. Well, meanwhile, in Iowa, the attorney general has paused the state’s policy of paying for abortions as well as emergency contraception for rape victims. This is where I get to rant briefly that emergency contraception and the abortion pill are totally different, that emergency contraception does not cause abortion — it only delays ovulation after unprotected sex and thus is endorsed for rape victims in Catholic health facilities across Europe. OK, end of rant. I expect we’re going to see more of this from officials in red states, though, right, with going — not just going after abortions, but going after things that are not abortion, like emergency contraception.

Luthra: And I mean, if we look at what many of the hard-line anti-abortion groups advocate, they don’t just want to get rid of abortion. They specifically name many forms of hormonal contraception, but specifically the emergency contraception Plan B, and they oppose IUDs [intrauterine devices]. It would just be so, so surprising if those were not next targets for Republican states.

Rovner: So abortion isn’t the only culture war issue being fought out in state legislatures. There’s also a parallel effort in lots of red states to curtail the ability of trans people, mostly but not solely teenagers, to get treatment or, in some cases, to merely live their lives. According to The Washington Post, as of the middle of this month, state legislators have introduced more than 400 anti-trans bills just since January. That’s more than the previous four years combined. Nearly 30 of them have become law. Now, I remember in the early aughts when anti-gay and particularly anti-gay marriage bills were the hot items in red states. Today, with some notable exceptions, gay marriage is as routine as any other marriage. Is it possible that all these attacks on trans people, by making them more visible, could have the same effect? In other words, could this have the opposite effect as the people who are pushing it intended? Or am I just looking for a silver lining here?

Luthra: I think it’s too soon to say. There isn’t incredible polling on this issue, but we do know that in general, like, this is not an issue that even Republicans pick their candidates for. It’s not like they are driven to the ballot box because they hate trans people this much. I wouldn’t at all be surprised if there is a backlash, just because what we are hearing is so, frankly, horrific. What I have been really struck by, in addition to the parallels to anti-gay marriage, have been the ways in which restrictions on access to health care for trans people really do parallel attacks to abortion in particular, thinking about, for instance, passing laws that restrict access to care for minors, passing laws that restrict Medicaid from paying for care, that restrict how insurance covers for care. It’s almost spooky how similar these are, because people often think minors are easier to access first. People often think health insurance is an easier, sort of almost niche issue to go for first. And what we don’t often see until afterward is that these state-by-state laws have made care largely inaccessible. The other thing that I think about all the time is that these are obviously, in both cases, forms of health care restriction that are largely opposed by the medical community, that are often crafted without the input of actual medical expertise, and that target health care that does feel incredibly difficult to extricate from the patient’s gender.

Rovner: Yeah. The other thing is that people are going from state to state, just like with abortion. In order to get health care, they’re having to cross state lines and in some cases move. I mean, we’re starting to see this.

Luthra: The high-profile example being Dwyane Wade, formerly of the Miami Heat, moving away from Florida because of his child.

Karlin-Smith: The other thing, Julie, you were saying in terms of how optimistic to be, in terms of maybe the other side of this issue sort of pushing back and overcoming it, is that Politico had this good story this week about doctors in states where this care is perfectly legal and permissible but they’re getting so many threats and essentially their health care facilities feel that they’re so much in danger that they are concerned about how to safely provide and help these people that they do want to help and give care, while also not putting their families and so forth in danger, which perhaps also has a parallel to some of how there’s tons of, like, constant protests outside abortion clinics. And people have volunteered for years just to kind of escort people so they can safely feel comfortable getting there, which of course is, you know, can be very traumatic to patients trying to get care.

Rovner: Yeah, the parallels are really striking. So we will watch that space too. All right. That is the news for this week. Now, we will play my “Bill of the Month” interview with Renuka Rayasam. Then we will come back and share our extra credit. We are pleased to welcome to the podcast Renuka Rayasam, who reported and wrote the latest KFF Health News-NPR “Bill of the Month” story. Renu, welcome to “What the Health?”

Renuka Rayasam: Thanks, Julie. Thanks for having me.

Rovner: So this month’s patient was pregnant with twins when she experienced a complication. Tell us who she is, where she’s from, and what happened.

Rayasam: Sure. Sara Walsh was 24 weeks pregnant with twins — it was Labor Day weekend in 2021 — and she started to feel something was off. She had spent a long time waiting to have a pregnancy that made it this far — eight years, she told me. But instead of feeling excited, she started to feel really nervous and she knew something was off. And so on Tuesday, she went to her regular doctor. And then on Wednesday, after that Labor Day, she went to her maternal fetal specialist, who diagnosed her with a pretty rare pregnancy complication that can occur when you have twins, when you have multiple fetuses that share blood unevenly through the same placenta. And it’s called twin-to-twin transfusion syndrome. And, you know — and this was Wednesday — she went into the office in the morning and she waited a long time for the doctor to kind of come back with the results, she and her husband, and just kind of spent the morning sort of back-and-forth between her maternal fetal specialist and her OB-GYN. And they told her she needed to get treatment immediately, that if she didn’t have treatment that she could lose one or both twins, she herself could even die. She needed to keep her fluid intake low. So they referred her to a specialist about four hours away from where she was. She was in Winter Haven, Florida, and they referred her to a specialist near Miami. And the specialist there apparently does not contract with any private insurance. And so that afternoon, hours after her diagnosis, she was packing her bags; she was getting ready to go, figuring out a place to stay, a hotel room and all that. And she gets a call from the billing office of this specialist in Coral Gables, Florida, near Miami. And they said, “Listen, we don’t contract with private insurance. You have to pay upfront for the pre surgical consultation for the surgery and then the post-surgical consult. And you need to have that money before you show up tomorrow in our office at 8 a.m.”

Rovner: And how much money was it?

Rayasam: About $15,000 in total for the consultations and the surgery itself. She told me she burst into tears. She didn’t want to lose these twins. She wasn’t given any option of shopping around for another provider. And she spent some time trying to figure out what to do. She couldn’t get a medical credit card because I guess there’s a 24-hour waiting period and she didn’t have that long. And so finally, her mother let her borrow her credit card. She checked into a hotel at midnight and at 8 a.m. the next morning she handed over her credit card and her mother’s credit card before she could have the procedure — before she could even see the doctor, I should say.

Rovner: And the outcome was medically good, right?

Rayasam: Yeah. The provider who did her surgery is a pioneer in this field. And that was why those doctors sent Sara to this provider, Dr. Ruben Quintero. He came up with this staging system that helps assess the symptom’s severity and even pioneered the treatment for it. But he sort of used all that to kind of say, OK, you have to pay me; I’m not even going to deal with insurance in this case. And so that afternoon, it was that Thursday, the day after she was diagnosed, she had a procedure, it went well, she had a couple of follow-ups in the following weeks. And then five weeks later, she delivered premature but otherwise healthy twin girls.

Rovner: So is that even legal for a doctor to say, “I’m not even going to look at you unless you pay me some five-figure amount”?

Rayasam: Generally, no. We have the federal No Surprises Act, as you know, and that’s meant to do away with surprise billing. But that was really designed for kind of inadvertent medical bills or surprises. Things get really complicated when there’s this appearance of choice where, you know, she had time to call the insurer, she had time to call the provider. It wasn’t as if she was unconscious and sort of rushed to the nearest doctor. Technically, she had a choice here. She could have chosen not to get the procedure. She could have gone to a different state. But obviously, those are not real choices in her situation when she needed the procedure so urgently. And so in those cases, you know, the billing experts I spoke with said this is a real loophole in federal billing legislation and state surprise billing legislation because the bill wasn’t a surprise. She knew how much to expect upfront. And that’s what makes this situation tricky.

Rovner: And she knew that the doctor wasn’t in network.

Rayasam: Absolutely. She knew the doctor wasn’t in network, and she knew how much she had to pay, and she willingly forked over the money, of course, as anyone would have in that situation or tried to in that situation.

Rovner: So after the fact, she went back to her insurance company to see if they could work something out, since it was pretty much the only place she could have gone at that point to get the treatment. But that didn’t go so well.

Rayasam: That didn’t go so well, and it’s one complication in this story that I myself don’t know what to make of, but the provider does not contract with any insurer, I should say. But he did take her insurance card and — or, the billing person did — and they say that they bill as a courtesy to the patient. So they file the paperwork for the patient. They say, “OK, your insurer will reimburse you. We’re going to provide all the paperwork.” In Sara’s case, it took a long time for this doctor and his practice to get Blue Cross Blue Shield the paperwork they needed to kind of pay for her claim. And in addition to that, they didn’t really send over the right paperwork right away. So it took a long time. And eventually she got only $1,200 back and she ended up paying far more than that out-of-pocket.

Rovner: And of course, the next obvious question is, doesn’t her insurance have an out-of-pocket maximum? How did she ever end up spending this much?

Rayasam: That’s a great question. We reached out to her insurer, and they didn’t really give us much of an explanation, but they, you know, on their billing statements and what they said to her was, “Hey, you went willingly out of network; this doesn’t qualify you for those out-of-pocket maximums.” They didn’t give us an explanation as to why. This seems to be a classic case of where those maximums should apply. But like I said, I think, you know, she had very little recourse. She tried to appeal the bills. She’s, you know, been on the phone with her insurer multiple times. The thing that makes this story more complicated is that it’s such a rare procedure and there aren’t that many providers in the country that even perform this procedure. So at first she was having to struggle with billing codes and all that with her insurance, so a lot of the people she was dealing with on the insurance side were really confused. It wasn’t something that they had a playbook for, knew what to do with, and that’s what made this a little bit more complicated.

Rovner: So what’s the takeaway here? I mean, obviously this was a rare complication, but if you multiply the number of rare complications of different things, you’re talking about a lot of people. Is there any way to get around this? I mean, it sounds like she did everything she could have in this case.

Rayasam: She did. In this case, it turns out there was another provider in Florida. There was no way for her to know that. Neither her OB-GYN nor the maternal fetal specialist told her about this other provider. I found out about it. I called around and did the reporter thing. And there are now four providers in Florida that will treat this. But of course, you know, if I was a patient, I wouldn’t shop around and risk my pregnancy either. So it’s unfortunate, in this case, there’s not much a person can do other than make sure that they’re keeping all the paperwork. And, you know, one thing that one of the billing experts I spoke with told me is that when you pay upfront, it makes things a lot harder. And in this case, like I said, she didn’t have a choice. But if there’s ever a way to get the bill on the back end, then there’s more of an incentive for the provider and the insurer to work together to get paid. But once the provider was paid, the insurer is not going to rush to reimburse the patient.

Rovner: And the provider is not going to rush to help the insurer figure out what to do. Ah well, another cautionary tale. Renu Rayasam, thank you so much.

Rayasam: Thank you.

Rovner: OK, we’re back and it’s time for our extra credit segment. That’s when we each recommend a story we read this week we think you should read too. As always, don’t worry if you miss it. We will post the links on the podcast page at kffhealthnews.org and in our show notes on your phone or other mobile device. Sarah, why don’t you go first this week?

Karlin-Smith: Sure. I took a look at a story in The Wall Street Journal, “Weight-Loss Drugmakers Lobby for Medicare Coverage. Adding Ozempic, Mounjaro to federal plans could stoke sales.” It really documents well sort of the range of lobbying organizations and groups and where they’re sort of putting money to try and get Medicare to shift its policies and cover treatments for obesity, which was something that in the early creations of Part D was banned. And I think largely at that time it was because weight loss was seen as more of a cosmetic treatment than something that impacted health in the same way we appreciate now.

Rovner: And also, there wasn’t anything that worked.

Karlin-Smith: Right. The things that prior to this, the things that were available at different times were not very effective and in some cases turned out to be fairly unsafe. And of course, now we have treatments that seem to work very well for a number of people, but there’s a fear of just how much money it would cost Medicare. So the other interesting thing in this story is they talk about some lawmakers in Congress thinking about ways to maybe narrowly start opening the floodgates to access by potentially maybe limiting it to people with certain BMIs [body mass indexes] or things like that to maybe not have the initial cost hit they might be concerned about with it.

Rovner: And of course, whether Medicare covers something is going to be a big factor in whether private insurance covers something. So it’s not just the Medicare population I think we’re talking about here.

Karlin-Smith: Right. There’s already I know lobbying going on around that. My colleague wrote a story a few weeks ago about Cigna sort of pushing back about having those drugs be included potentially in, like, the essential health benefits of the ACA [Affordable Care Act]. So it’s going to be, yeah, a broader issue than just Medicare.

Rovner: Yeah, it’s a lot. I mean, I remember when the hepatitis C drugs came out and we were all so, you know, “Oh my God, how much this is going to cost, but it cures hepatitis C.” But I mean, that’s not nearly as many people as we’re talking about here. Jessie, why don’t you go next?

Hellmann: My stories from Politico. It’s called “Gun Violence Is Actually Worse in Red States. It’s Not Even Close.” It takes a weird twist that I was not expecting. Basically, the premise is about how gun deaths are actually higher in areas like Texas and Florida. They have higher per capita firearm deaths, despite messaging from some Republican governors that it’s actually, like, you know, cities like Chicago and New York that are like war zones, I think it’s the former president said. The author kind of makes an interesting argument I didn’t see coming about how he thinks who colonized these areas plays into kind of like the culture. And he argues that Puritans like had more self-restraint for the common good. And so areas like that have less firearm deaths where, you know, the Deep South people were — had like a belief in defending their honor, the honor of their families. So they were kind of more likely to take up arms. Not sure how I feel about this argument, but I thought it was an interesting story and an interesting argument, so —

Rovner: It is. It’s a really good story. Shefali.

Luthra: My story is from The Washington Post. It is called “The Conservative Campaign to Rewrite Child Labor Laws.” It’s a really great look at this Florida-based group called the Foundation for Government Accountability, which, despite its innocuous-sounding name, is trying to help states make it easier to employ children. This is really striking because we have seen, in states like Arkansas, efforts to make it easier to employ people younger than 16 in some cases, which is just really interesting to watch in these states that talk about protecting children and protecting life to, to then make it easier to, to employ kids.

Rovner: And in dangerous profess — in dangerous jobs sometimes. I mean, we’re not talking about flipping burgers.

Luthra: No, no. We’re talking about working in, like, in meat plants, for instance. But I think what’s also interesting is that this same organization that has made it easier to employ children has also tried to fight things like anti-poverty and try to fight things like Medicaid expansion, which is just sort of, if you’re thinking about it from an access-to-health standpoint, like, anti-poverty programs and Medicaid are shown to make people healthier. It’s sort of a really interesting look into a worldview that in many ways uses one kind of language but then advance the policy agenda that takes us in a different direction.

Rovner: Maybe we should go back to to Jessie’s story and depend on who settled that part of the country. We shall see. Speaking of history, my story’s from The Nation, and it’s called “The Poison Pill in the Mifepristone Lawsuit That Could Trigger a National Abortion Ban,” by Amy Littlefield. And it’s about the Comstock Act, which is a law from the Victorian era — it was passed in 1873 — that banned the mailing of, quote, “lewd materials,” including articles about abortion or contraception. A lot has been written about the Comstock Act of late because it was used to justify part of the opinion in the original mifepristone case out of Amarillo. But what this article makes clear is that reviving the law is actually a carefully calculated strategy to make abortion illegal everywhere. So this is not something that just popped up in this case. It’s a really interesting read. OK, that is our show. As always. if you enjoyed the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left us a review; that helps other people find us too. Special thanks, as always, to our ever-patient producer, Francis Ying. As always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org. Or you can tweet me, at least for now. I’m @jrovner. Sarah?

Karlin-Smith: I’m @SarahKarlin.

Rovner: Jessie.

Hellmann: @jessiehellmann.

Rovner: Shefali.

Luthra: @Shefalil.

Rovner: We’ll be back in your feed next week. Until then, be healthy.

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Supreme Court justices could act at any moment on access to the abortion pill mifepristone. Beyond reproductive health, their ruling could carry significant implications for states’ rights and FDA independence and integrity. For now, though, observers are unsure what the court will do — or what exactly prompted justices to again delay their decision this week.

At the Capitol, lawmakers grumbled, scoffed, and bickered this week as House Speaker Kevin McCarthy revealed the Republican proposal to cut government spending. The package would be dead-on-arrival in the Democratic-controlled Senate. But of note is the pushback from within McCarthy’s own caucus, with some hard-right conservatives pressing to go further by demanding the repeal of the Inflation Reduction Act in exchange for raising the debt ceiling.

And President Joe Biden pursued new efforts to grant legal status to young immigrants living in the country illegally who were brought here as children, sometimes called “Dreamers,” as his administration announced a plan to grant them access to government-funded health coverage.

This week’s panelists are Mary Agnes Carey of KFF Health News, Rachel Cohrs of Stat, Sandhya Raman of CQ Roll Call, and Joanne Kenen of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico.

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Rachel Cohrs
Stat News

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Joanne Kenen
Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico

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Sandhya Raman
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Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:

• The Supreme Court extended its stay on the use of mifepristone through Friday, giving justices longer to act on a major, complicated case with nationwide implications for reproductive health. It is unclear what the court will do, though there are several actions it could take — including sending the case back to the lower courts or again extending the stay and buying justices even more time to come to agreement or pen dissents.
• GenBioPro, which produces the generic version of mifepristone, sued the FDA on Wednesday, attempting to preserve access to the drug. About two-thirds of the mifepristone currently used in the United States is generic.
• In congressional news, House Speaker McCarthy released what is effectively Republicans’ opening offer in the fight over raising the debt ceiling. The package includes GOP health priorities that would not garner needed support in the Senate, like work requirements for Medicaid and the clawback of unspent covid-19 pandemic funds.
• While health costs are high across government programs, Medicaid takes the big hit in the Republican proposal to cut federal spending. Republicans have embraced work requirements for government assistance since at least the 1980s, yet in Arkansas — a state that implemented work rules for Medicaid — it has proved challenging to verify that enrollees are meeting those requirements.
• The Senate Finance Committee, which has jurisdiction over much of federal health spending, revealed a package this week to tackle drug pricing. While the proposal is in the early stages, it seeks to incorporate bipartisan measures touching pharmacy benefit managers, insulin users, and more.
• And on the coverage front, the Biden administration announced that immigrant kids brought to the United States who remain here under the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals program will be able to apply for Medicaid and Affordable Care Act coverage. This eligibility expansion comes as states prepare to disenroll those who no longer qualify for Medicaid as the public health emergency’s coverage protections expire. Expect a fight from some states as they resist being forced to cover insurance for individuals living in the U.S. without legal permission.

Plus, for “extra credit,” the panelists suggest health policy stories they read this week that they think you should read, too:

Mary Agnes Carey: The New York Times’ “A Beauty Treatment Promised to Zap Fat. For Some, It Brought Disfigurement,” by Anna Kodé

Joanne Kenen: The New York Times’ “My Transplanted Heart and I Will Die Soon,” by Amy Silverstein

Sandhya Raman: ABC News’ “Puerto Rico’s Water Supply Is Being Depleted, Contaminated by Manufacturing Industry on the Island, Experts Say,” by Jessie DiMartino, Lilia Geho, and Julia Jacobo

Rachel Cohrs: The Wall Street Journal’s “‘I Hate You, Kathie Lee Gifford!’ Ozempic Users Report Bizarre Dreams,” by Peter Loftus

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Transcript: Will They or Won’t They (Block the Abortion Pill)?

KFF Health News’ ‘What the Health?’Episode Title: Will They or Won’t They (Block the Abortion Pill)?Episode Number: 294Published: April 20, 2023

[Editor’s note: This transcript, generated using transcription software, has been edited for style and clarity.]

Mary Agnes Carey: Hello and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Mary Agnes Carey, partnerships editor for KFF Health News. I’m filling in this week for Julie Rovner, and I’m joined by some of the best and smartest health reporters in Washington. We’re taping this week on Thursday, April 20, at 10 a.m. Eastern. As always, news happens fast and things might have changed by the time you hear this. So here we go. Joining us today by video conference are Joanne Kenen of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico.

Joanne Kenen: Hi, everybody.

Carey: Rachel Cohrs of Stat.

Cohrs: Morning, everyone.

Carey: And Sandhya Raman of CQ Roll Call.

Raman: Good morning.

Carey: Let’s start with the current court action on mifepristone. The Supreme Court was scheduled to rule yesterday on a decision from the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 5th Circuit that rolled back FDA action since 2016, allowing patients to get mifepristone through the mail, authorizing prescriptions by medical professionals other than doctors, and approving the drug’s use up to 10 weeks into a pregnancy instead of seven. Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito Jr, who’d previously set Wednesday as the deadline for the court to act, extended that stay until Friday, and the justices could certainly act before they choose to —hopefully not while we’re taping. But I wanted to get everyone’s thoughts on why do you think the court didn’t act yesterday? Joanne, can I start with you?

Kenen: I mean, presumably they’re still hashing it out. There’re probably two or three judges who are still thinking about it or discussing it with their colleagues, or colleagues who want to think they can persuade them to their side. I mean, there’s something internal. On the other hand, I mean, they didn’t originally give themselves a lot of time to consider a complicated and historic case. We know there’s an anti-abortion majority. We know they’re not crazy about medical abortions any more than they are about surgical abortions. But this has large implications about states’ rights and about the sort of integrity of the FDA. So they may just wanted to sleep on it. They’re human, but the two sides are battling for two or three in the middle.

Carey: So what does this signal about how they might rule? I mean, to your point about the split, the battle, what are the options? What do you — Sandhya, what do you think about what they might —

Kenen: Well, if it was slam dunk, we’d have had it.

Carey: That is true. That is true. It is not a slam dunk.

Raman: And everyone that I have talked to in the last few weeks on this is just that there are so many different options, different permutations, that it’s difficult even for people that are experts on FDA policy, like expert lawyers, experts on abortion policy, to just kind of like predict the nuances. You know, they could let the stay expire. They could send it back to the 5th Circuit. They could decide to hold arguments and let it expire or not expire. They could decide something different than the 5th Circuit. You know, there’s so many different ways that things could happen that I think it makes it difficult. And then yesterday, the other manufacturer of mifepristone, GenBioPro, also filed suit against the FDA. So now we have, since Dobbs, like five different lawsuits related to mifepristone and three of them, post-Dobbs, are related to the FDA in particular. And I think it just gets very, very complicated to make a decision, even if ideologically some people might align with one way versus the other, given all of these different permutations and that we still have that Washington case that is attacking another part of this. So it’s just complicated to get people to do something. And the fact that this case has been moving so, so quickly.

Carey: Could we be in the same place on Friday? Could we get another stay? Could the justices certainly ask for more time, and are there any thoughts about the probability of that actually happening? Rachel, what are your thoughts?

Cohrs: I think they can do what they want.

Carey: That’s true.

Cohrs: They gave themselves time once more, and I think obviously there’s a benefit to having some certainty and predictability for people, for providers, but certainly they could stay again.

Carey: So, Sandhya, you just mentioned the Washington state case. So while this Texas ruling is before the Supreme Court, a federal district judge in Washington state issued a ruling in a separate case that instructed the FDA to not alter the current availability of the drug in 17 states and the District of Columbia. And as you just mentioned, a manufacturer of the generic version of the drug — the company’s name is GenBioPro; they make the generic version of mifepristone — they’re arguing that if the FDA implements a court order suspending approval of the drug, the agency would deprive the company of its rights to market the drug without due process of law. And as I understand, this company is a major manufacturer of the generic version of the drug, right? So let’s talk a bit more about this confusion of these split rulings. I mean, what is the public to make of it? What’s the reaction with facilities that are providing this medication or doctors who want to prescribe it or just the general public? The person who might be interested in this situation is very confused. I mean, talk a little bit about how people sort through it and what this means for them.

Raman: So the suit that was filed yesterday about the generic, they make two-thirds of the mifepristone that is used in the U.S. So if they were unable to be manufacturing theirs based on a ruling that only allowed the name-brand version of the drug, that’s a huge percentage of the market that is gone, and more than half of abortions are done through medication abortion. So that’s one thorn in it. And I think that another is that we have all of these states that have been stockpiling the drugs — several that have been, you know, in case they don’t know what is happening with the ruling. Washington is one of them. And there’s still not clarity depending on what happens with these cases of, you know, will they be able to use what that they have stockpiled? And then we have other states like New York and I think California that have been stockpiling misoprostol as another way to — in case there’s a court ruling that doesn’t go in their favor — to just give patients in their states access to medication abortion. I think that there are so many different permutations that it’s very difficult for even folks that are confident that the rule may go a different way to know what to predict, just because we’re in such uncertain territory, from all of the different former FDA officials that have said, “You know, this is a very different situation. We don’t even know, after decades of experience at the FDA, like, how this would play out, what it would mean, whether we’d have to pull everything off the market.” How it would play out, it’s just a lot of unknown territory given all of the different things going on.

Kenen: Well, also, whatever they do now isn’t necessarily the end of the story, right? I mean, if the court issues a stay, it will still go through the courts and it presumably ends up at the Supreme Court again. If they issue a stay pending full hearing of the case, it’ll be going on for months more. But either they issue a stay saying the 5th Circuit ruling, which did not totally — the lower federal court banned the use of the pill; the appeals court limited it to seven weeks instead of the FDA has ruled it’s for 10 weeks. So if they uphold the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals, there would still be use, but it would be limited. If they put a stay saying, “Yes, it can stay legal in the states that allow it for now,” then it would still be legal in those states but we’d still be back discussing what is the Supreme Court going to do a couple of months from now.

Carey: And how — where is the drug industry on this? I mean, this would have sweeping ramifications.

Kenen: They’re horrified. One of you might know the number — was it like 250 companies signed the brief that you’re going to have a court decide what drug is safe and what drug is not safe, rather than the FDA? I mean, the pharmaceutical company fights with the FDA all the time, but they need the FDA and they know they need the FDA and they admit they need the FDA. You know, you have one voice in this country saying a drug is safe or a drug is not safe or a drug is safe under the following conditions.

Raman: There have been hundreds of the drug companies that have spoken out against it, and PhRMA [Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America] more recently also finally came out against it. It’s been pretty uniform in a way that I have not really seen in the past where there have been, you know, the drug companies, the various people that have been regulators, the folks that are in favor of abortion rights, then just advocates — and just very unified in this response.

Carey: Rachel, what is the impact of the drug industry’s weighing in in this manner? How could that shape the decision? Was there anything surprising in how they worked together on this? I know you’ve done some reporting on this area.

Cohrs: Yes. Yeah. So I think certainly them actually filing briefs with the court will kind of help drive home the ramifications of this, just on a much larger scale. I mean, we’re not just talking about abortion now. We’re talking about any medication that could be at all controversial. You know, we’re talking PrEP for HIV. You know, there are so many areas where companies genuinely are concerned about lawsuits and about judges who aren’t experts. So I think this uniform voice will drive home the larger impacts here beyond this one issue. And also, I think, the drug industry has significant resources to invest. And I think, it took a little while, but the trade groups PhRMA and BIO [Biotechnology Innovation Organization] have said that they are willing to invest, and they haven’t made any specific commitments, but certainly I think down the line there could be legal challenges. And now that they have put themselves out there, they certainly are a significant player in the space, with resources.

Raman: The drug industry is also a huge player in, you know, donating to various campaigns and lobbying on the Hill. And it’s definitely going to be — put increasingly different folks in a tight spot if they are receiving a lot of backing from the pharmaceutical industry and if they’ve spoken out in favor of restricting the drug. And it’ll be interesting to see kind of as it goes on what happens there with some of these folks.

Carey: Sure. Well that’s a perfect segue way because we have lawmakers on Capitol Hill are also weighing in on this. About 150 Republicans are urging the Supreme Court to uphold the 5th Circuit’s ruling, while more than 250 Democrats have urged the court to not prevent access to mifepristone. Are Republicans taking a political risk here speaking out? Because I know it’s been talked about on the podcast before, about the abortion rights opponents have some splits on how far to go on some of these restrictions on abortion. You know, Republicans didn’t really seem eager to engage when the decision came out, but now they are. What does that mean? What do you make of it?

Raman: We’ve had that delay first that, you know, a lot of Republicans did not even comment on the case, which was kind of interesting, given that, you know, after a lot of these decisions, we see a lot from both sides kind of weighing in. And I think when you look at some of these briefs, they say a lot of the similar talking points as before, which is something that you can kind of look to. But I mean, the conversation is still moving, even on the Hill. Yesterday, Robert Califf from the FDA was facing questions about mifepristone from different Republicans, from Cindy Hyde-Smith, who had agreed with the lower court decision, from Susan Collins, who was kind of against the decision as one of the Republicans who generally supports abortion rights. And I think it’ll be very interesting if this gets taken up by a committee that has jurisdiction over the FDA, which we have not really seen a commitment to. Energy and Commerce [Committee] Democrats have asked for something on this to come up. But, you know, under Republican leadership, I don’t know that that would necessarily happen. The only committee that is really committed to looking at this issue has been, like, Senate Judiciary, which with Democratic control is going to look a different way. And they don’t really have the jurisdiction over FDA in the same way as some of the other committees do. So I think that’ll be interesting to look at if that changes.

Kenen: There is a divide in the Republican Party about how far to go. I mean, some are for rape and incest exceptions, some are not. Some are for six weeks, some are for 15 weeks, some are for zero weeks. This is reflecting those divisions. It also depends on the individual lawmaker’s district. You know, if you come from an extremely conservative district and you are an anti-abortion absolutist, then you’re going to speak out on this. But we’ve noted they don’t really want to antagonize pharma either. So you’ve seen, I guess it’s 150ish — you haven’t seen all of them. It’s a complicated issue for some of them, given the competing interests, you know. Is abolishing all abortions in the United States of America your top goal? In which case you’re going to want to support the lower court. If you have a more nuanced view, where you’re worried about precedent for overriding the FDA, you have competing — I mean, there are very few abortion rights Republicans, but they don’t all want to draw the line in the same place.

Carey: So while we’re on the subject of Capitol Hill, let’s talk about the debt ceiling. We have a little bit of action there this week. Speaker of the House Kevin McCarthy unveiled his plan to raise the debt ceiling. McCarthy and many Republicans have said they don’t want to raise the debt ceiling without spending cuts. President Biden and many Democrats are pushing for a clean debt ceiling increase. So among its provisions, Speaker McCarthy’s plan would cut federal spending by roughly $130 billion, and that would take spending back to fiscal 2022 levels. Health-related provisions include new work requirements for Medicaid and food stamp recipients, and the package would also claw back unspent covid aid funds. And there’s a bit of a twist on the work requirement proposals of the past: States could opt to keep those that don’t comply with the work rules covered under Medicaid, keep them on the rolls. But if they do, the state would bear the full cost of that coverage and forgo the federal money for those enrollees, right? The proposal also requires states to make use of existing resources like payroll databases, state health and human service agencies, to verify compliance with a work rule when possible. There’s a lot to unpack here. It’s pretty clear that, I mean, House Democrats aren’t going to vote for this. Does the speaker even have enough votes in his own caucus to pass it? I think he can only lose like four.

Kenen: TBD. But I don’t think the conventional wisdom is that he has the votes. You know, it’s a starting offer, but they can change, you know, has to go Rules [Committee]. They’ll change — you know, they could change things.

Carey: It is a starting offer. But your vote is next week and it’s Thursday. OK. Rachel, what’s your take on this?

Cohrs: Yeah, I think it was a bit of a roller coaster this week, as some members of the Freedom Caucus were demanding wholesale repeal of the Inflation Reduction Act around midweek, and they certainly backed off from that, especially the health care portion. So I think that is worth noting, at least right now. Again, unclear if he has the votes, or if the speaker has the votes, and then obviously Senate Democrats aren’t going to go for it and President Biden isn’t going to go for this. So I think, like Joanne said, it is kind of an opening offer here. And again, there isn’t a lot on Medicare in here. So I think we just, you know, finally, after so much rhetoric and so much back-and-forth, have some sort of tangible starting point from Republicans here, which is significant.

Kenen: But, you know, as soon as they made that pledge that we’re not going to touch Medicare, meaning traditional Medicare actually, and we’re not going to touch Social Security, we all knew that, Oh, that means that it’s all going to go to Medicaid. So this is a big Medicaid hit. And work rules have been something the Republicans have embraced at least since the Reagan era, maybe even before, but certainly since the 1980s. A few states tried them or at least said they were going to impose them under the Obama administration. At that point, the administration didn’t approve them and the courts didn’t uphold them. But we have a different court now. So I think this court would uphold; that’s likely. But this is not acceptable for Democrats, nor is it meant to be.

Raman: And when we had the various states propose these and in some cases implement them during the Trump administration, every single one of them was struck down by the court once, sometimes twice. You know, we had Arkansas, we had New Hampshire, we had Kentucky, we had Michigan. Every single time the judge at hand was, you know, “This is going against the function of Medicaid,” which — historically we’ve had work requirements in some of the other programs, but the way the Medicaid statute is written, it has been difficult to find a way to keep those in place. So if they were able to get that past, I mean, even the House, which seems like is a, is a question mark, I mean — whatever could get through would absolutely face court battles from some of the same folks that challenged them during the Trump administration.

Kenen: But I think the only one that actually went into effect was Arkansas. And in addition to it being thrown out by a court, it also just didn’t work. The mechanism didn’t work. It became really hard for people. The verification that you’re working, which this proposal actually addresses, that Mary Agnes just alluded to that, the verification was extraordinarily cumbersome. I mean, you had like lots of poor people in Arkansas — and rural Arkansas don’t have access to Internet — and you only had a few hours a day where you could use the portal and you have to leave work to go to the local library to prove that you were working. I mean, it was just — forget the ideology of it — the mechanics didn’t work, and people were thrown off even though they were compliant. And but this [is] just like a deep philosophical divide between the two parties, and they have compromised, and back in the Clinton years they compromised on welfare, what’s now called TANF [Temporary Assistance for Needy Families]. There’s work requirements for SNAP, for what we used to call food stamps. But Medicaid has been a red line for Democrats, that this is an entitlement based on health; it’s not like you deserve — some people deserve it and some people don’t. It’s been a philosophical, ideological, you know, something that Democrats feel very strongly about.

Cohrs: Oh, I just want to jump in on the covid money as well — much smaller deal, fewer impacts on patients — but it has been kind of interesting and over the last couple of weeks that the Biden administration has rolled out some new programs that cost quite a bit of money, as there’s this horizon, this call for Congress to claw back unspent covid funds. I mean, they’re spending $5 billion now on developing vaccines and therapeutics, $1 billion on vaccine access, when they said they didn’t have any money. So it’s just kind of interesting that, you know, when these funds are committed to a program legally, then Congress can’t claw them back. So I’m curious to see what else we’ll see as these negotiations solidify.

Carey: All right. We’ll keep our eye on it. And I want to just check in briefly on the Senate side. I know we’ve discussed these issues on the podcast before. The Senate Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee has been working on legislation focused on drug prices and pharmacy benefit managers. This morning we have a framework introduced from the Senate Finance Committee. It’s with Sen. Wyden, the chair from Oregon, who’s a Democrat, and Sen. Mike Crapo, Republican from Idaho, that also seeks to address PBMs in the prescription drug supply chain. We also have the moving, or maybe not moving, but introduce legislation, anything new there on insulin prices with Sen. Warnock and Sen. Kennedy to cap the out-of-pocket price at $35. Any movements there in the Senate, any insight you could offer?

Cohrs: On the Senate Finance [Committee] side, that is a very significant development, that they’ve decided to get in on the fun this week of putting together a package, just because their committees do have jurisdiction over so much federal spending. And Sen. Wyden has been involved in this issue. He’s put out — I found a package of bills from 2019, and, you know, he’s been on this issue a long time. So I think his team has proven they can craft big-picture, very impactful policy with the Inflation Reduction Act. So I think that’s certainly something to watch with that much federal spending on the line. And on insulin, you know, Sen. Schumer this week has committed to have some sort of insulin pricing provision in whatever package might come together — it’s still pretty amorphous — but it’s unclear what that’s going to look like. There is another proposal from Sen. Collins and Sen. Shaheen, two much more senior members of the caucus, and that mechanism works differently. For patients, it would look pretty similar. But on the back end, for insurers, for drugmakers, both of those programs would work differently. So they haven’t sorted that out yet. HELP hasn’t even picked a date for their hearing and formally announced it yet. So we are in early stages, but there’s certainly a lot swirling around.

Carey: Absolutely. And we’ll keep our eye on all of that as well. So I’d like to also chat a little bit about some ACA developments that happened this week. President Biden recently announced that hundreds of thousands of immigrants brought to the United States illegally as children will be able to apply for Medicaid and the Affordable Care Act’s health insurance exchanges. This allows participants in the Obama-era Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals program, also known as DACA, to access government-funded health insurance programs. You can expect pushback from conservative leaders of states that have been reluctant to expand Medicaid, possibly also pushback from Republican members of the Hill on this provision. And then, in other ACA news, the administration has finalized new rules that are aimed at making it easier for consumers to sign up for ACA plans, in particular those who are losing their coverage through Medicaid or the Children’s Health Insurance Program. The Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services, also known as CMS, will also give state marketplaces the option to hold a special enrollment period for people who lose their Medicaid or CHIP coverage. What could this possibly mean for enrollment in the program, right, to making it easier for DACA participants to enroll in the ACA or people losing their coverage through CHIP or Medicaid? I think it’s about 16 million people now in the program. Does this build more support for it? Are Republicans going to engage against it? Do they think that’s simply a losing battle because they’ve never agreed on an alternative?

Raman: I mean, right now, we’ve had historic levels of people in Medicaid and CHIP just because states have been unable to unenroll them from coverage during the public health emergency for covid. And now that states are starting to recheck their rolls and see who’s still eligible, who’s not eligible, we’ve been expecting just, you know, a big drop in different people that would be either getting uninsured or maybe moving to a different type of plan with a private or the exchanges. And I think it’s been something that, you know, states and the federal government have been working on for the entire time of just, you know, different ways to make sure that that drop-off in the number of uninsured folks doesn’t skyrocket as states are going through this process. And so I think the timing is important in that, you know, you’re trying to counteract the drop. And HHS [the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services] has been touting, you know, the high levels of uptake in the ACA and just like the low uninsured rate and this has been something they’ve just kind of been pushing, you know, month after month. This has been something that has been like a big achievement for them. And so now really like push comes to shove to say that, you know, it doesn’t drop off dramatically if you want to continue touting some of these achievements and making sure that people don’t drop off just because the emergency is ending and that guaranteed coverage isn’t there.

Kenen: So there are multiple issues in the question that are exposed, the DACA, which —

Carey: Of course it can’t be just one question I have to ask four at once.

Kenen: The DACA, which is also known as the Dreamers, Biden is trying to cover them. Democrats have been trying to give them legal status and got nowhere. In fact, they’re probably further away from that than they were five or six years ago. But to get them health coverage is something the Democrats — it’s like the least they can do to this population. But I can’t imagine there’s not going to be a political and/or a legal fight from the states who are going to have to pay for their share of it, right? I mean, Medicaid is a state-federal joint expenditure, and the states that don’t want to cover these people will well resist or sue. Or, I mean, everything ends up in court; I would imagine this will, too, or baked into the debt ceiling — you know, one more thing to fight about with the debt ceiling. So that’s one issue. I mean, the other issue is this unwinding of this huge Medicaid population. Most of these people are going to be eligible for some kind of coverage. Some of them are still going to be eligible for Medicaid. Some of them are going to be eligible for very good deals for sort of low-income working people on the ACA. And some have jobs that they can get insured through — theirs or a partner or a family member. But really, the only ones who are ineligible for anything would be those in the remaining Medicaid gap states. But that’s like theoretically, if we did everything right, the only people that would be ineligible are the Medicaid gap population, which is now down to about 10 states, assuming North Carolina, you know, finalizes their approval or, you know, enacts their expansion. But like, that’s the perfect world, and we don’t live in a perfect world. I mean, some of these people are going to get lost in the shuffle. And in fact, maybe several million; their estimates are like maybe 6 million, you know, no one knows. But, you know, our health care system is complicated. You know, getting a letter in the mail saying, you know, “Sayonara, Medicaid,” is not all of them will know how to negotiate new coverage even when they’re eligible, and we’re going to have to do a really good job of helping them. And that has to be from the federal government, from the state governments, from the health system itself, from advocates, from Congress. You know, everyone’s going to have to pitch in to get these people what they’re eligible for. And I don’t see that as an overnight success story. I think that there are people who should be covered and can be covered who won’t be covered. Eventually we’ll probably catch up and most of them enrolled. But I think that some of them have periods of uninsurance.

Carey: It’s absolutely a major undertaking. I know we’ll all be watching closely. OK, that’s the news for this week. Now it’s time for our extra credit segment. That’s when we each recommend a story we read this week and think you should read it too. As always, don’t worry if you miss it. We’ll post the links on our podcast page at kffhealthnews.org and in our show notes on your phone or other mobile device.

Kenen: I actually want to read the first sentence of this piece. This is a guest essay in The New York Times by Amy Silverstein. She’s a heart transplant recipient. She’s, I guess, about 60 now, and she’s about to die, not because her heart, her transplanted heart is failing — she writes about how she kept that in pristine condition — but because she’s got cancer. And it’s called “My Transplanted Heart and I Will Die Soon,” and it begins, “Today, I will explain to my healthy transplanted heart why, in what may be a matter of days or weeks at best, she — well, we — will die.” And in addition to being just a heart-tugger, I did not know a lot of what she explores about transplant medicine, that we think of transplants as medical miracles — and they are; you know, she had like an extra 35 years of life — but they’re also, transplant medicine itself hasn’t really, according to what she writes, transplant medicine itself — the drugs, the care they get, these heavy-duty drugs haven’t improved in 40 years. While she has a healthy heart, she has metastatic lung cancer because of these drugs. The medical care around transplant can be quite dangerous. And I knew nothing about that, and I’ve covered health for a long time. So it’s a tragic story and it’s also a scientific failure or a medical system or a medical research failure story that I hope a lot of people who have the power to change it read.

Carey: Sandhya, what’s your extra credit?

Raman: So my extra credit is from ABC News. It’s called “Puerto Rico’s Water Supply Is Being Depleted, Contaminated by Manufacturing Industry on the Island, Experts Say.” It’s a triple byline from Jessie DiMartino, Lilia Geho, and Julia Jacobo. And I thought their story was really interesting because it looks at the effects of the manufacturing industry on the water supply in Puerto Rico. The manufacturing there is, in Puerto Rico, is really high because there used to be a tax incentive that’s now lapsed to create a huge boom in manufacturing in the ’60s and ’70s. And kind of looking at the impacts of that, and over time and to the environment, and pharma manufacturing in particular, is 65% of what has been the industrial groundwater withdrawals. So in areas that rely heavily on groundwater on an island, this is felt especially hard. And so they go through a lot of the implications of some of that and how the manufacturing affects it, especially in an island with a finite water supply.

Carey: Rachel.

Cohrs: Mine is, the headline is, “‘I Hate You, Kathie Lee Gifford!’ Ozempic Users Report Bizarre Dreams,” in The Wall Street Journal and by Peter Loftus. Our newsroom has been covering the weight loss drug explosion this year, and I think this story was just so colorful and just a great example of reporting on the side effects that emerge when so many people are interested or want to take a drug. And I think there is certainly a public service to people understanding what they’re getting into and just hearing from all sorts of people, because certainly there are agencies who are supposed to be doing that. But I think there’s also just a lot of buzz that’s fascinating. The writing was just so rich and bizarre. And yeah, it was a great read and a great illustration on it, too.

Carey: Well, speaking of weight loss and getting fat out of our bodies, my story is from The New York Times, called “A Beauty Treatment Promised to Zap Fat. For Some, It Brought Disfigurement,” by Anna Kodé, and I hope I’m pronouncing your name correctly. You might have heard or seen all these ads about the treatment called CoolSculpting. It uses a device on a targeted part of the body to freeze fat cells. Patients typically undergo multiple treatments in the same area, and in successful cases, the cells die and the body absorbs them. “But for some people,” Anna writes, “the procedure results in severe disfigurement. The fat can grow, harden and lodge in the body, sometimes even taking on the shape of the device’s applicator.” The manufacturer says this is a rare side effect, but a Times investigation that drew on internal documents, lawsuits, medical studies, and interviews indicates the risk to patients may be considerably higher. So that’s our show. As always, if you enjoyed the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left a review; that helps other people find us too. Special thanks, as always, to our ever-patient producer, Francis Ying. And as always, you can email us with your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org. Or you can tweet me @maryagnescarey. Rachel?

Cohrs: @rachelcohrs.

Carey: Joanne?

Kenen: @JoanneKenen.

Carey: Sandhya.

Raman: @SandhyaWrites.

Carey: We’ll be back in your feed next week. Until then, be healthy.

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Julie Rovner is chief Washington correspondent and host of KFF Health News’ weekly health policy news podcast, “What the Health?” A noted expert on health policy issues, Julie is the author of the critically praised reference book “Health Care Politics and Policy A to Z,” now in its third edition.

The abortion pill mifepristone is now ground zero in the abortion debate. Late Wednesday night, the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals said the drug should remain on the market but under restrictions on distribution that were in effect before 2016, which ban prescribing by mail or by telemedicine. The restrictions would make it even more difficult for patients in states where abortion is illegal or widely unavailable.

The decision comes in response to a ruling last week out of Texas, where a federal judge, as was widely expected, found that the FDA should not have approved the drug more than 22 years ago and ordered it, effectively, unapproved.

Complicating matters further still, in a separate case filed by 18 attorneys general in states where abortion is largely legal, last week a federal district judge in Washington state ordered the FDA not to reinstate any of the old restrictions.

This week’s panelists are Julie Rovner of KFF Health News, Victoria Knight of Axios, Shefali Luthra of The 19th, and Sarah Karlin-Smith of the Pink Sheet.

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Sarah Karlin-Smith
Pink Sheet

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Victoria Knight
Axios

@victoriaregisk

Read Victoria's stories

Shefali Luthra
The 19th

@Shefalil

Read Shefali's stories

Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:

• A late-night decision by the appeals court preserves access to mifepristone while the legal battle continues. But it also resurrects outdated limitations on the drug, meaning mifepristone can be used only up to seven weeks into a pregnancy, among other restrictions.
• While it is expected that the U.S. Supreme Court will ultimately decide the drug’s fate, some providers and state officials are rushing to stockpile it. Cutting off access to the abortion pill puts extra pressure on clinics in states where abortion remains legal, which are also serving women from so-called prohibition states and could see an influx of patients as mifepristone becomes difficult — or impossible — to get.
• Republicans largely have remained quiet about the ruling overturning mifepristone’s FDA approval. While many in the party support banning the drug, they likely recognize the political risks of broadcasting that stance. Meanwhile, the Biden administration moved to strengthen privacy protections for patients and providers related to abortion, offering some reassurance to those who fear they could be prosecuted under their home state laws for seeking abortions elsewhere.
• As Southern states have whittled away at abortion access, Florida, with its 15-week abortion ban, had emerged as a hub for patients across the region. This week the state moved to restrict the procedure to six weeks, a change that could send many patients scrambling north to states like Virginia and New York for care. And in Idaho, a new law makes “abortion trafficking” — or transporting a minor to have an abortion without parental consent — a crime.
• Congress is exploring new drug pricing measures, particularly aimed at increasing transparency around pharmacy benefit managers and capping insulin costs. Lawmakers are also watching the approach of the debt ceiling threshold; in the mix of budgetary pressure valves are Medicaid and, potentially, work requirements to receive Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program benefits.
• Congress continues to show little appetite for addressing a different, intensifying public health crisis: gun violence. A new poll from KFF shows startlingly high numbers of Americans — especially people of color — have directly experienced gun violence and live with that threat every day.

Plus, for “extra credit,” the panelists suggest health policy stories they read this week they think you should read, too:

Julie Rovner: The Washington Post’s “To Comply With a New Sesame Allergy Law, Some Businesses Add — Sesame,” by Karen Weese.

Shefali Luthra: KFF Health News’ “For Uninsured People With Cancer, Securing Care Can Be Like Spinning a Roulette Wheel,” by Charlotte Huff.

Victoria Knight: The Washington Post’s “Research With Exotic Viruses Risks a Deadly Outbreak, Scientists Warn,” by David Willman and Joby Warrick.

Sarah Karlin-Smith: NBC News’ “Conspiracy Theorists Made Tiffany Dover Into an Anti-Vaccine Icon. She’s Finally Ready to Talk About It,” by Brandy Zadrozny.

Click to open the transcript

Transcript: The Confusing Fate of the Abortion Pill

KFF Health News’ ‘What the Health?’Episode Title: The Confusing Fate of the Abortion PillEpisode Number: 293Published: April 13, 2023

[Editor’s note: This transcript, generated using transcription software, has been edited for style and clarity.]

Julie Rovner: Hello and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Julie Rovner, chief Washington correspondent at KFF Health News. And I’m joined by some of the best and smartest health reporters in Washington. We are taping this week on Thursday, April 13, at 10 a.m. As always, news happens fast —really fast this week — and things might have changed by the time you hear this. So here we go. We are joined today by video conference by Victoria Knight of Axios.

Victoria Knight: Good morning.

Rovner: Sarah Karlin-Smith of the Pink Sheet.

Sarah Karlin-Smith: Hi, Julie.

Rovner: And Shefali Luthra of The 19th.

Shefali Luthra: Hello.

Rovner: Well, no interview this week, but spring is busting out all over with health news, so we will get right to it. We will begin in Texas with that court case that we’ve been saying for the last few weeks we hadn’t gotten a decision in. Well, we got a decision last Friday night around dinnertime and then very early this morning — that’s Thursday — we got an appeals court decision, too. But let’s take them one at a time. Last Friday night, in an opinion that was shocking but not surprising, as many people put it, Trump-appointed federal District Judge Matthew Kacsmaryk effectively rolled back the Food and Drug Administration’s 22-plus-year-old approval of mifepristone; that’s the first of two pills used for medication abortion early in pregnancy. Literally within the hour, federal District Judge Thomas Rice in Spokane, Washington, ruled in a separate case — brought by a group of about a dozen and a half state attorneys general — basically the opposite, ordering the FDA not to alter the current availability of the drug. Judge Kacsmaryk in Texas very kindly stayed his stay until this Friday to allow the Biden administration to appeal to the also very conservative 5th Circuit Court of Appeals. And in the wee hours of today, Thursday, an appeals court panel ruled that, while this lawsuit proceeds, mifepristone can continue to be sold, but only under the extremely onerous restrictions that were in effect until 2016. Shefali, where does that leave us? It’s kind of a mess, isn’t it?

Luthra: It is a huge mess, and the implications will be really significant. In particular, the 2016 restrictions on mifepristone don’t allow telemedicine. You have to go in person to a doctor to get the medication, and you can only use it up to seven weeks of pregnancy, when all of the evidence we have, including from the World Health Organization, says 10 weeks, sometimes maybe even 11. And I mean, we know realistically that people are taking mifepristone far later in pregnancy now because they can’t access legal abortion. And what this is going to do if it takes effect is it’s going to put a real strain on abortion clinics in states that have become destinations, right? The ones that are seeing so many out-of-state patients that largely do medication abortions because it’s easier, it’s faster, it pays a little bit better — all of these reasons that you do it —and that have really come to rely on telemedicine: Either they will have to take much longer to do this process and only do it for a handful of the patients they’re seeing, or they’ll switch to what we’ve talked about before, the misoprostol-only regimen, which is more painful, which is less effective. Still very good at terminating a pregnancy, but has a higher failure rate. And what clinics have told me is very often they expect that patients, when they hear that these are their options, will opt for a procedural abortion instead because that they know will absolutely work and they have to go home. They don’t worry about coming back to the clinic and worrying that they need an abortion again.

Karlin-Smith: I just want to put in the caveat that, you know, off-label use, which is where doctors prescribe a drug for use not approved for FDA, is something they do have sort of the discretion to do in practice of medicine once the product’s available. So the rollback is significant, but practically a lot of doctors will have the flexibility to still treat patients up to the longer timeframe. And people have pointed out this morning that, actually, many doctors were doing that prior to FDA formally expanding the approval.

Luthra: And to your point, many states have been stocking up on mifepristone in particular, and so have many abortion clinics, and they plan to use it as long as they can. The real challenge, I think, will be if there are supply issues at some point or other sorts of decisions from the Supreme Court, etc., or enforcement actions that essentially don’t allow telemedicine anymore.

Rovner: What it looks like the 5th Circuit has done is made it much harder for people in states where there are abortion bans to go to other states or to not go to another state but get the abortion pill, because they’ve banned it by mail; they’ve basically stopped in its tracks what we’ve been talking about for weeks — the ability of pharmacies to start to distribute it — because until 2016 you had to go — the doctor had to physically hand you the pill, which is what we are back to, and there have to be three visits in order to complete a medication abortion. These were all sort of the pre-2016 requirements. And the big question, though, is in Washington state, the requirement was that the FDA not change any of the relaxed restrictions. And now the 5th Circuit has said, yes, you will. So this still is on a fast track to the Supreme Court, right?

Luthra: It feels very like this is going to be decided by the Supreme Court. I mean, I wouldn’t be surprised if we hear about an appeal today. I wouldn’t be surprised if we hear about it tomorrow. It feels like really this could have changed between us taping and the podcast releasing.

Rovner: I think that’s entirely possible. So one of the things we thought Judge Kacsmaryk might do was order the FDA to basically restart its approval process for mifepristone, since his reasoning for rescinding essentially the drug’s approval is that the FDA violated its own procedures. Ironically, this decision came in a week when the FDA did withdraw the approval of a drug, a medication to prevent preterm birth called Makena. Sarah, what’s this drug and why is the FDA pulling it off the market? And this is how it’s supposed to work, right?

Karlin-Smith: Yes — supposed to work maybe is a stretch, depending on how some people felt about Makena; they felt it took way too long for FDA to withdraw it. So two sides of a coin, I suppose. But after a very long process, FDA finally pulled a drug that is given to women with the idea that it might help them deliver later, once their baby was full term, and prevent complications that come from having a premature birth. Unfortunately, over the years, as more clinical research was done on the drug, it appeared that it was not actually doing that. And as like all drugs, there are some side effects. And FDA basically ended up deciding, you know, absent any benefit, all you have is risk and this drug should not be pulled off the market. So it was finally pulled off the market after quite a lengthy process this week, right? It was still this week, or was it — no, it was last week.

Rovner: I think it was last week.

Karlin-Smith: Time. Time —

Rovner: Time is a very flat circle right now.

Karlin-Smith: Yeah, and so unfortunately it was really the only approved product that could possibly prevent preterm birth. And FDA really tried to recognize that and understand that people would be frustrated without options. But they tried to really emphasize the point that having an ineffective option is not the answer to that problem. The answer there is sort of push for more research on other products or even on this product to figure out if there’s a population of women it might benefit.

Rovner: So I wanted to mention that, because obviously the mifepristone ruling has the impact to affect much, much more than just abortion drugs. Individual drug companies are, to use the vernacular, freaking out about the idea that they could spend millions of dollars to shepherd a drug through clinical trials and the FDA approval process, only to see it banned because some small group of people object to it for some non-medical reason. Sarah, you cover the FDA. Is this freakout warranted right now?

Karlin-Smith: I do think most people think it is. And, you know, even in my preliminary look at what the 5th Circuit did this morning, I think that freakout is still going to continue because they seem to still give like this wide breadth that would allow many people to have the ability to challenge FDA approval decisions for any drug and then let judges weigh in who may not have the expertise and based on the science and all that other stuff that FDA has. So I think as this case has proceeded there’s still this underlying threat to the FDA’s authority and how they make decisions. Again, in the Texas case, he wasn’t trying to push it back to FDA and say, “OK, FDA, you go review this drug and decide again whether it needs to do it,” and then, you know, set them up for a Makena-like process where they would have to go through it. You know, they were trying to fast-track and overrule FDA’s authority. And if you read some of the details of the brief, you can really understand why it freaks out pharma and the FDA so much, because you can just tell how little the judge gets about how drugs are approved, the science, the regulatory process, and so forth.

Rovner: And basically that you have judges who are making medical and scientific decisions for which they are observably not qualified.

Karlin-Smith: Right, and I mean if nothing else industries likes stability, they like predictability, so there’s just this element of incredible unpredictability when you would have all these judges and potential legal cases throughout the country that would make it hard for them to deal with — and figuring out how to defend their products.

Rovner: So the FDA is obviously in an impossible situation here. They cannot satisfy both the Washington decision and the Court of Appeals decision because one says you can’t roll it back and one says you have to roll it back. Do we have any idea what the FDA is going to do here?

Luthra: I don’t know that we do. I mean, the Biden administration has said that they will follow the court orders, but the court orders are in conflict. So it seems like there should be some more clarity, perhaps, that we get. We, as of taping, haven’t gotten any statement from the president or the vice president or HHS, so we’ll keep an eye out and see if they have even just words of wisdom to offer about what this means or how they feel about the decision. But at this point, a lot is still quite confusing.

Rovner: So the Biden administration did take other action on abortion this week, in some separate steps. It announced Wednesday a series of new privacy protections for women and providers seeking or giving reproductive health care. How big a deal are these new rules, which sort of expand the HIPAA privacy rules? And why did it take them almost a year to do this? Hadn’t they been talking about this like right after the Dobbs ruling?

Luthra: They had been talking about this for a while. And what they said was that they believed that the guidance they had given to providers was sufficient to protect patient privacy. That has clearly not been the case, because we have continued to hear from people seeking abortions and from the health care providers giving them that they do not feel safe, right? They constantly have this fear that if I put something in someone’s medical record about an abortion, someone else might see it and it could get reported. So this should make that very clear beyond the guidance that was given out last summer — should make very clear that if you get an abortion, your doctor does not have to and should not tell any law enforcement about what happened. I think this has the potential to be really significant because one thing that we hear constantly from the people who are traveling out of state is they are terrified that they are breaking the law and that someone is going to find them, even though —

Rovner: That they’re breaking the law of their home state.

Luthra: Mm-hmm. Even though, of course, the home state laws do not criminalize the people who are seeking abortion.

Rovner: Yes. Well, I want to turn to the politics before we leave all of this. Democrats at all level of government were quick to decry this decision as wrong, anti-democratic, small d, and various other things. Republicans were a lot slower to react. How big a problem is abortion becoming for the Republican Party? They seem to be getting even more split on, “Gee, we thought that maybe overturning Roe was what we wanted and we were going to leave it at that.” And apparently anti-abortion activists are not leaving it at that.

Luthra: I mean, I think a great example of how Republicans are trying to navigate this problem is Congresswoman Nancy Mace, who, we may all recall, the day that Roe was overturned, put out a statement, like so many Republicans, saying that this was a great decision, very good for the country, the right step forward — and has since then tried very deliberately to walk away from that and to recalibrate her image on abortion and was one of the ones to come out this week and denounce the opinion from the District Court in Texas. Republicans who are willing to praise the decision in particular to take medication abortion off the market or to further restrict it, which is so unpopular, are finding themselves in a really tough spot. This is a winning issue for them and all they can really hope, and what we saw in the midterms, is to not talk about and to try and change the subject to something else.

Knight: I think important to note also that there were a good number of Republicans in Congress — think it was 69 — that signed on to an amicus brief both supporting the original lawsuit, this Texas lawsuit, and then also this decision when it came out.

Rovner: Right. This is an amicus brief to the Court of Appeals urging them to uphold the original decision.

Knight: Yeah. There were two amicus briefs , and a good number of congressional Republicans. — yeah, first for the original court case and then for the Appeals. But it was very noticeable that most of the Republican offices did not issue any kind of statement when this decision came out last week. So they’re fine supporting, putting documentation forward, supporting it, but they’re not broadcasting it, if that makes sense. And so I think that was very telling. It really was only Sen. Cindy Hyde-Smith, who is the Senate lead of the Pro-Life Caucus, that put something out. But it was very quiet among the rest of the Republicans, yeah.

Rovner: I noticed with that amicus brief, it’s like, OK, they’re going to say on the down-low to the anti-abortion activists, “We’re with you, but we really don’t want to publicize this because it’s not terribly popular with a lot of people.”

Luthra: To build on that, one example of someone who is really trying to walk that line and seems like is maybe facing challenges is Ron DeSantis, right? The person who did this compromise ban last year, the 15-week abortion ban, and now has clearly realized that if you want to be a nationally prominent Republican with support from the very powerful anti-abortion movement, you can’t do that; you need to be more overt in your disapproval of abortion and willingness to restrict access. But at the same time —

Rovner: Well, you’re anticipating my next question, which is that there is other abortion news this week. And in Florida, the legislature seems like it’s on the cusp of approving a six-week abortion ban to supplant the 15-week abortion ban it passed last year. And the aforementioned governor DeSantis says he will sign that if it comes to him. But Shefali, you’ve written about this. This could impact a lot more than just the people of Florida, right?

Luthra: I think it’s really important to note that Florida is the third-biggest state in the country and currently the biggest state in the eastern south part of the country where abortion is legal, even if it is only available up to 15 weeks. I have been to the clinics in Florida. It is stunning how crowded they are. There are people coming from all over the South. People are working until midnight to try and see every patient they can. And without Florida, the options are North Carolina and South Carolina. South Carolina clinics, there are very few of them, and they don’t go very far, not because of current state laws, but just because of the providers in the state. North Carolina is also looking likely to have some kind of abortion ban passed this year and again has way fewer clinics than Florida. If Florida is banning abortion after six weeks, a very, very large chunk of the country is going to be almost entirely displaced. The math just doesn’t really work. And we don’t know where people will be able to get abortions other than traveling, frankly, to Virginia, to D.C., to New York, and to all the places that so far, data shows, haven’t been as affected by out-of-state travelers.

Rovner: And of course, with the Court of Appeals decision basically saying that you can’t mail the abortion pills and that you can’t do it by telemedicine, I mean — which is not to say that people aren’t going to continue to get them by mail. It’s just that it won’t be FDA-sanctioned the way it was going to be. So Idaho is also making abortion news. This this feels like an afterthought, even though last week it seemed like a big deal. They have enacted a bill there creating the crime of abortion trafficking, which is the act of any adult transporting a minor for an abortion without her parent’s consent. Now, in the late 1990s and the early aughts, Republicans in the U.S. Congress tried unsuccessfully to pass something called the Child Custody Protection Act, which would have criminalized taking a minor across state lines for an abortion. But Idaho can’t do that. Only the federal government can regulate interstate travel. So this Idaho law just applies to the in-state portion of the trip. But it could still be a big deterrent, right? Unless you live right on the border. If you’re trying to take somebody out of state, you’re going to have to do part of it in state.

Luthra: I mean, of course. And I mean, Julie, I wanted to ask you about this because this is not actually a new kind of restriction. There are a bunch of states that have passed these, quote-unquote, “child trafficking laws” that restrict minors traveling out of state for abortion. Idaho is the first one to do it post-Dobbs. But for some reason, the anti-abortion movement has always had far more success in restricting access to minors. I think we’re all paying more attention now because we realize that this could in fact be the first step toward that thing that Justice Kavanaugh said would not happen, right? The larger-scale restriction of travel out of state for abortions.

Rovner: Yes. Restricting abortion for minors has been sort of the soft spot for the anti-abortion movement, really from the very beginning, because even people who consider themselves in favor of abortion rights, as we’ve seen this year with books — you know, parents are really like, “We want to be in charge of our daughters, and if my daughter needs my permission to get her ears pierced, she should need my permission to get an abortion or, God forbid, travel out of state or get contraception.” This is actually — it’s the minor issue that’s the reason that the Title X, the Family Planning Program, has not been reauthorized by Congress since 1984, which was before I started covering it. Oh, it’s my favorite piece of reproductive health trivia, because every time Congress tried to do it they got hung up over this question of should minors be able to get contraception without their parents’ approval. It is a continuing thing, but I think Idaho probably got more attention because they call this “abortion trafficking,” so we have a new law. All right. Well, there actually is other news this week that does not have to do with abortion. Congress next week will return from its two-week Easter/Passover break. And apparently at the top of the agenda in the Senate is a bill focusing on drug prices and particularly on pharmacy benefit managers. Even the Republican-led House is looking at PBM legislation. Sarah, remind us, what are PBMs and why are they so very unpopular among both Democrats and Republicans?

Karlin-Smith: So PBMs are companies contracted by your health insurance company or now, at this point, often owned by your health insurance company, that administer your pharmacy benefits, and they create the formularies that decide what drugs are covered and how much you are going to pay for them. And then they negotiate deals with pharmaceutical companies to try and lower the prices of drugs. And they also have to work with the pharmacies. So they’re called middlemen, often in a not very nice way. The drug industry has definitely tried to paint them as the key reason prices are too high, saying they give them discounts but they’re not passing them on to patients. It’s a bit more complicated than that. PBMs essentially say they do pass on that money to patients in the U.S. system but it ends up lowering everybody’s premiums, so not necessarily the person who’s paying for the high-cost drug. Of course, it’s a lot more complicated, because this is an industry, I think, surrounded by a lack of transparency. So it’s been hard for people, I think, to verify who’s getting that money and is it all really going to patients? And then, like I mentioned, this consolidation with health insurance companies, with parts of the pharmacy system as well, has started to raise a lot of kind of antitrust concerns and, again, that they may not be working in patients’ best interests.

Rovner: And a lot of this legislation is about transparency, right? It’s about sort of opening the black box of how PBMs set drug prices and negotiate with drug companies and pass these things along to insurers. I see you nodding, Victoria.

Knight: Yeah, and there’s a lot of different bills floating out there. There’s some that have passed out of committee in previous Congress that passed out of committee again, most notably a Senate Commerce bill — Chuck Grassley and Maria Cantwell — and that just passed out of committee, and that would implement some transparency measures, also ban the practice of spread pricing. There is some talk that Schumer may put a health package on the floor sometime soon, and so PBMs are going to potentially be a big part of that. There’s also supposed to be a markup sometime this month out of the Health, Education, Labor, Pensions Committee, where they also are talking about PBMs. So it’s interesting that there is a real movement on both sides of the aisle, also in the House, on PBMs. So they want to put some blame on high drug prices on someone. And right now it seems to be PBMs.

Rovner: And it looks like they’re going to go after insulin again, too, right? In the bill that passed last year they managed to cap insulin costs at $35 a month, but only for people on Medicare. So I guess this is the attempt to come back and require lower insulin prices for others. We will point out that many of the companies have voluntarily lowered some insulin prices, but looks like Congress not done with this yet, right?

Knight: No, it’s not done with it yet. Bernie Sanders is apparently going to haul some insulin execs in to have to testify, even though some of them have committed to lowering prices. And it’s also mentioned in the potential Schumer package, that $35 cap for everyone is supposed to be a part of it. And there’s also a lot of insulin $35-cap bills floating around. There is some Republican support in the Senate for that. There were some Republicans last year that voted for that. But I think the House will be the bigger issue, because there doesn’t seem to be as much Republican support in the House for a cap that extends to everyone.

Rovner: Yeah, but I mean, when we said sort of back in January that there might be some things that they could do on a bipartisan basis, it sounds like we’re starting to see some of them — now that it’s spring — blooming. So anything else that you are looking for this next session between, you know, Easter and Memorial Day?

Knight: I think also, I don’t know how much people are paying attention to this, but there is going to be one of those select subcommittee covid hearings next week and they’re bringing in some intelligence officials to talk about covid origins. So I think this is the first hearing with actual, like, intelligence officials. So I think it’ll be interesting to see what comes out of that. And obviously, there’s a lot of talk around, like, that practical policy implications are that Congress could kind of restrict NIH [National Institutes of Health] funding or how NIH gives out research funding because of all this talk around gain-of-function research in regards to covid origins. So I think that’s what we’re watching for rather than just the rhetoric around it, like what are the actual — how could it play out in regards to NIH funding? And then of course, can’t forget debt ceiling negotiations and work requirements are still very much being talked about.

Rovner: For Medicaid.

Knight: For Medicaid and also SNAP [Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program] potentially. So there was reporting this morning from Punchbowl saying that work requirements are very much still in the proposals that are being kicked around. So, another thing to watch.

Rovner: May is traditionally a very busy month on Capitol Hill, particularly May of the odd-numbered year, the first year of a Congress, so I imagine we’ll see a lot. One last thing I want to talk about this week, and we haven’t talked about it for a while, but the toll of gun injuries just continues to mount. In the past three weeks, we’ve had mass shootings with multiple fatalities in Tennessee, Kentucky, and Florida. In Louisville, in fact, the mayor, who himself survived a mass shooting last year, lost a close friend in the shooting this week. So it’s not all that surprising that a new poll from my colleagues over the editorial firewall at KFF found that gun violence is so common that more than one in five Americans say they have personally been threatened by a gun. Nearly as many say a family member has been killed by a gun; 17% say they have personally witnessed someone being shot. The numbers are even worse for people of color. Nearly a third of Black adults have witnessed someone being shot, and more than a third have lost a family member to gun violence. We seem to have acknowledged finally that gun violence is a public health problem. Yet that hasn’t brought us any closer as a society to solving it. I mean, we were just talking about the things that Congress might be looking at in terms of health care in the spring. But gun violence isn’t really one of them, is it?

Knight: Yeah. I think you’ve seen from the Biden administration and acknowledgment from both sides of the aisle in Congress that the bipartisan bill that passed last year, which gave a lot of money towards mental health funding and also allowed states the option to implement red flag laws and some other smaller gun safety things. They kind of acknowledged that’s as far as they’re going to be able to go in the current makeup of this Congress. So it seems like a stalemate and it’s kind of like now on a state level. And there was some talk from Tennessee’s governor about doing some small things, perhaps after the shooting in Nashville, but it doesn’t seem like there is much movement.

Rovner: And of course, in Tennessee, it was fighting about not doing anything about guns that erupted in that whole conflagration with people getting —

Knight: — expelled —

Rovner: —evicted from the Tennessee state legislature and then reappointed and yeah, I mean, that — people may not remember, that’s actually over a gun demonstration or a lack-of-gun-legislation demonstration. So who knows whether anyone will find something to do about it. All right. That is the news for this week. Now it’s time for our extra credit segment. That’s when we each recommend a story we read this week we think you should read too. As always, don’t worry if you miss it. We will post the links on the podcast page at khn.org and in our show notes on your phone or other mobile device. Sarah, why don’t you go first this week?

Karlin-Smith: Sure. I looked at an NBC News story called “Conspiracy Theorists Made Tiffany Dover Into an Anti-Vaccine Icon. She’s Finally Ready to Talk About It.” This was a nurse who was one of the first people to receive a covid vaccine when it first became available. And apparently, I guess, this is something that’s been a problem for her, she says, throughout her whole life. Sometimes with certain pain reactions she faints. And the story also talks about how she hadn’t really eaten lunch that day. But basically it was filmed and shared quite widely, including all over social media, and anti-vaccine activists basically took it and were using it sort of as proof of the harm caused by the vaccines. And the reaction to that from the hospital, and herself to some degree, was basically to just kind of keep quiet and not respond. There was very little pushback, yet — the idea was kind of if we ignore it, it will go away. But that just kept fueling everything. And basically people thought she might have even been dead and no one was telling. They thought the hospital was using her co-worker as sort of a body double to show proof of life. And a couple of years later, she’s finally trying to talk about what that experience was like and make clear again: She was fine, she was healthy, you know, she was more than happy to get the vaccine, you know, would do it again and stuff. But it’s a really interesting story because I think the journalists sort of go through again how we’ve been sort of grappling as a society with how to respond to this type of misinformation and how some of the normal kind of PR playbook strategies are actually hurting, not helping, public health. So we need to kind of shift to figure out how to handle that.

Rovner: And there are lots and lots and lots of these stories about people who, you know, quote-unquote, “died” when they got the vaccine, who are perfectly fine and walking around. It was — it was a really well done story. It’s just — it’s really kind of scary. Victoria.

Knight: Victoria, my extra credit this week is a story in The Washington Post by David Willman and Joby Warrick. It’s called “Research With Exotic Viruses Risks a Deadly Outbreak, Scientists Warn.” And so it’s basically kind of an in-depth look at how, over the years, the U.S. has funded virus research where — in other countries — where people go out into like forests and wildlife areas and collect bat samples, collect samples from different animals to try to kind of predict the next pandemic. And it profiles this one team in Thailand who has said, “We’re not accepting U.S. funds anymore.” They told the U.S. in 2021 after covid, “This feels too risky for us.” And we — they have been doing this research funded by the U.S. for four years, and they really felt like they hadn’t found much tangible benefit out of it either. So they’re kind of like, “It’s not worth the risk to our employees and potentially creating another pandemic on our own.”

Rovner: And and just to be clear, this isn’t gain-of-function research.

Knight: This is not even gain-of-function research.

Rovner: This is a different kind of potentially dangerous research.

Knight: Yeah, this is really just going out in the wild and collecting samples from animals that are out there already. But yeah, it’s not doing research in a lab that’s like altering a virus necessarily. So yeah, and so the story is kind of reckoning — like what is the balance between wanting to do scientific research and needing that knowledge for the future and the safety of employees and the general public. So, and it talked about how there is like — the U.S. does fund quite a bit of this kind of research around the world, and the pace of that has not always kept up with regulation and oversight. And so just kind of probing questions, especially as I talked about earlier — Congress does look into this issue of gain-of-function research and just the NIH funding research around the world in general.

Rovner: I feel like this whole week has been, where do government and science cross? Shefali.

Luthra: My story is from the well-named KFF Health News. It is called “For Uninsured People With Cancer, Securing Care Can Be Like Spinning A Roulette Wheel.” It’s by Charlotte Huff. It’s a really, really great look at what happens when you get cancer and in particular live in a state that didn’t expand Medicaid. Charlotte just does a really great job looking at the experiences that this woman has when she develops skin cancer and is recommended all these treatments that she can’t afford. She lives in South Carolina. She’s not eligible for Medicaid because they didn’t expand eligibility. And what it really gets into is the idea that there are a couple of cancers where you will get treatment, but for most of them, you will not get coverage; you have to pay thousands, sometimes tens of thousands out-of-pocket. And it’s a really well done, devastating look at what health care costs mean in our system and how much access really is for so much of health care based on where you happen to live.

Rovner: Yeah, it really is — really wonderful story. Well, my story, it’s also from The Washington Post, and it’s called “To Comply With a New Sesame Allergy Law, Some Businesses Add — Sesame,” by Karen Weese. So back in 2004, I covered the deliberation and passage of the Food Allergen Labeling and Consumer Protection Act, which for the first time required companies to put on the label in plain English if their products contained any of the eight major food allergens, which are milk, eggs, fish, shellfish, tree nuts, peanuts, wheat, and soybeans. It was an enormous relief, particularly to parents of young children with allergies and to anyone with a food allergy that could be fatal. So, the law also required food companies to label whether there was a chance that the product could have been cross-contaminated with one of those allergens. That’s why you sometimes see on a label, you know, quote, “This product was produced in a facility that also makes milk products or that uses nuts” or some such thing. The law has worked pretty well, say those who fought for it, and in 2021 Congress added sesame to the list of allergens that had to be labeled. Except that this time something weird happened. Many food companies, rather than carefully cleaning and monitoring their plants to ensure there would be no cross-contamination with sesame, instead are basically evading the law’s intent by adding small amounts of sesame flour to their products and then putting on the label that “This product contains sesame.” It’s dangerous for a lot of reasons but mainly because for people with sesame allergies who have eaten certain products without problems for years, they may not realize that, to them at least, a poison has been added to their favorite bread or roll or whatever kind of product. So this is something that I imagine Congress is going to want to go back and take a look at. All right. Before we go this week, you may have noticed that the introduction to the podcast has been tweaked. That’s because we have a new name. Kaiser Health News has been retired as of this week. We are KFF Health News to reflect that we are an editorially independent program of KFF, also a new name, and that neither of us is connected in any way to that big HMO [health maintenance organization] Kaiser Permanente. I hope you will bear with us as we all get used to the change. OK, that is our show. As always, if you enjoyed the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left us a review; that helps other people find us too. Special thanks, as always, to our ever-patient producer, Francis Ying. Also, as always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org. Or you can tweet me, at least for the moment. I am still @jrovner. Victoria?

Knight: @victoriaregisk.

Rovner: Sarah?

Karlin-Smith: @SarahKarlin.

Rovner: Shefali.

Luthra: @shefalil.

Rovner: We will be back in your feed next week. Until then, be healthy.

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[UPDATED on April 18]

The new drug looked so promising — except for that one warning sign.

At the American College of Rheumatology’s annual meeting in 2008, Duke University’s Dr. John Sundy proudly announced that pegloticase, a drug he’d helped develop, was astoundingly effective at treating severe gout, which affects perhaps 50,000 Americans. In about half of those who had taken it, the drug melted away the crystalline uric acid deposits that encrusted their joints to cause years of pain, immobility, or disfigurement.

But Sundy also disclosed an unsettling detail: In one clinical trial, patients who got the drug were more likely to develop heart problems than those who didn’t. The day after Sundy’s talk, the stock price of Savient Pharmaceuticals, which developed the drug with Duke scientists, plunged 75%.

That danger signal would disappear in later studies, and the FDA approved pegloticase, under the trade name Krystexxa, two years later. But the small biotech company never recovered. In 2013, Savient was sold at auction to Crealta, a private equity venture created for the purpose, for $120 million.

Two years later, a young company now called Horizon Therapeutics bought Crealta and its drug portfolio for $510 million.

Even at that price, it proved a good deal. Krystexxa brought in $716 million in 2022 and was expected to earn $1 billion annually in coming years.

Although Horizon says it now has 20 drugs under development, in its 15 years of existence it has yet to license a product it invented. Yet the company has managed to assemble a war chest of lucrative drugs, in the process writing a playbook for how to build a modern pharmaceutical colossus.

As the White House and both parties in Congress grapple with reining in prescription drug prices, Horizon’s approach reveals just how difficult this may be.

Horizon’s strategy has paid off handsomely. Krystexxa was just one of the many shiny objects that attracted Amgen, a pharmaceutical giant. Amgen announced in December that it intends to buy Horizon for $27.8 billion, in the biggest pharmaceutical industry deal announced in 2022.

Horizon’s CEO, Tim Walbert, who will reportedly get around $135 million when the deal closes, has mastered a particular kind of industry expertise: taking drugs invented and tested by other people, wrapping them expertly in hard-nosed marketing and warm-hued patient relations, raising their prices, and enjoying astounding revenues.

He’s done this with unusual finesse — courting patients with concierge-like attention and engaging specialist clinicians with lunches, conferences, and research projects, all while touting his own experience as a patient with a rare inflammatory disease. Walbert’s company has been particularly adept at ensuring that insurers, rather than patients, bear the costly burdens of his drugs.

A federal prosecutor in 2015 began examining allegations that Horizon’s patient assistance program had worked with specialty pharmacies to evade insurers’ efforts to shun Horizon’s expensive drugs. A separate probe opened in 2019 over alleged kickbacks to pharmacy benefit managers, companies that negotiate to get Horizon’s drugs covered by insurers. Those investigations appear to be no longer active, Horizon spokesperson Catherine Riedel said. The company this year disclosed a third probe, concerning methods the company allegedly used to get prior authorization of its drugs. Justice officials did not respond to requests for comment on the investigations.

An Injection of Marketing

To help sell its drugs, Horizon blankets specialist physicians with marketing and peer-to-peer appeals. Its payments to physicians for things like consulting, speeches, and meals totaled $8.7 million in 2021, compared with the $10 million it paid them for research, federal records show. By contrast, Seagen, a biotech company of roughly the same size, paid doctors a total of $116 million, with nearly $112 million of that pegged for research. Riedel said Horizon’s marketing and educational approaches were “necessarily unique” because of the challenges of treating rare and neglected diseases.

Walbert launched Horizon in 2008 in the Chicago area by combining and refashioning generic drugs into single pills. Duexis, Horizon’s first drug, is a mixture of generic Motrin and Pepcid. Its Vimovo combines generic Aleve and Nexium. In a 2017 article, a ProPublica reporter described being prescribed Vimovo for a shoulder injury. It cost him nothing, but his insurer was billed $3,252 for pills that together cost about $40 for a month’s supply in generic form. Horizon sold more than $57 million worth of Vimovo that year.

In 2014 and 2015, respectively, Horizon picked up two relatively new drugs that had no generic versions: the immunosuppressant Actimmune and Ravicti, which treats a rare genetic disorder. Soon Horizon was charging more than $50,000 a month for each, placing Actimmmune fourth and Ravicti second on GoodRx’s 2020 list of the most expensive U.S. drugs.

Horizon’s net sales soared from $20 million in 2012 to $981 million in 2016; Walbert’s pay package followed suit, topping an astronomical $93.4 million in 2015 in salary and stock. Stock analysts questioned the long-term soundness of a strategy of simply selling old drugs for mind-boggling prices, but Walbert was using the cash to refashion the company as a rare-diseases franchise.

His approach would make Walbert a darling of pharmaceutical investors and his board, which lavished him with over $20 million in compensation each of the past three years. While most biotechs and startups borrow heavily from venture capital to do science and have no idea how to develop and market a drug, Walbert got cash coming in quickly. “He did it backwards,” said Annabel Samimy, an analyst at Stifel Financial Corp. “Horizon built commercial platforms before they got into drug development.”

Generating “robust sales of what sounded like not very interesting drugs” allowed Walbert “to start a company on not very much,” said Oppenheimer analyst Leland Gershell. All the while, Horizon funded and cultivated the patient advocacy groups that can help lobby for a drug to be approved by the FDA and placed on insurers’ formularies, the lists of drugs health plans cover for patients.

Speaking From Experience

As Walbert and his spokespeople often point out, Walbert and his youngest son suffer from a rare disease, and Walbert also has an autoimmune disease. Walbert won’t name the diseases, but has said he’s taken the anti-inflammatory injectable Humira since 2003 — the year he led that drug’s commercial launch as a vice president at Abbott Laboratories. Humira has become the bestselling drug in history, with about $200 billion in all-time global sales.

In 2014, Walbert moved Horizon’s headquarters to Ireland, which nearly halved its tax rate. A year later it gained control of Krystexxa, and in 2017 it bought, for $145 million, a failing company that produced Tepezza, a drug for thyroid eye disease, which causes unsightly eye bulging and pain.

Tepezza quickly became a blockbuster, with $3.6 billion in total sales in 2021 and 2022. The company conducted additional clinical research on both Tepezza and Krystexxa, but it also spent heavily promoting these and other drugs to specialists who could prescribe them.

All the while it steadily raised prices. Savient put Krystexxa on the market in 2011 at $2,300 per injection. Horizon charges roughly 10 times as much. Six months of Tepezza treatment can run more than $400,000.

Horizon’s publicity emphasized the company’s sensitivity to patients, and its constant contact with disease advocates.

“Our scientists are attuned to the unmet needs of patients, their diagnostic and therapeutic journey,” Bill Rees, Horizon’s vice president for translational sciences, told KFF Health News. “It’s the marrying of the basic clinical science with a focus on the needs of the patient that differentiates us.”

To make sure patients keep using its drugs, clinicians say, Horizon staffers negotiate with insurance carriers, and the company offers drug discounts to lower-income patients while swaddling them with attention from its medical staff.

“Horizon has a nurse talk to each and every patient before every appointment,” said Dr. Brigid Freyne, who treats around half a dozen patients each year with Krystexxa at her Murrieta, California, rheumatology clinic. “The patients who come in here are highly motivated to get their IV. They get the message that it’s very important and they are fortunate to get the medicine.”

None of the manufacturers of her other infusion drugs shower patients with this kind of attention, she said.

While at Abbott, Walbert pioneered direct-to-consumer advertising for specialty drugs like Humira, a trend that aggravated insurers, who anticipated, correctly, that they would soon be shelling out billions for expensive drugs.

Horizon’s marketing plan for Krystexxa includes direct-to-consumer ads aimed at driving patients to specialists. The drug is designed for recalcitrant gout patients, who often have large lumps on their fingers, feet, and kidneys. Many, though not all, are heavy drinkers of beer or soda sweetened with high-fructose corn syrup, which can increase the buildup of uric acid, the cause of gout, said Dr. Robert McLean of Yale University.

While Krystexxa can help patients with advanced gout, the American College of Rheumatology views it as a drug of last resort, with plenty of cheaper, early intervention alternatives available.

“I prescribe it maybe once a year,” McLean said. “From a cost-effectiveness standpoint, it warrants questioning.”

Horizon recently started a publicity campaign addressed to all gout sufferers, urging them to see a rheumatologist or a nephrologist — the specialists it has targeted with Krystexxa educational materials — before the disease does too much harm.

“Horizon would like you to say, ‘Everyone with serious gout should be started on Krystexxa,’” said Dr. James O’Dell, a rheumatologist at the University of Nebraska Medical Center. The Horizon pitchmen he deals with are “nice guys, but we don’t believe that’s the best way.”

The company defends its marketing practices. “We learn what matters most to patient communities and act. This approach has been validated by independent third-party research,” said Riedel.

The Federal Trade Commission said in January it was seeking more information on the Amgen-Horizon merger. Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.), citing high prices for Horizon and Amgen drugs, urged the agency to nix the deal.

KFF Health News is a national newsroom that produces in-depth journalism about health issues and is one of the core operating programs at KFF—an independent source of health policy research, polling, and journalism. Learn more about KFF.

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Julie Rovner is chief Washington correspondent and host of KHN’s weekly health policy news podcast, “What the Health?” A noted expert on health policy issues, Julie is the author of the critically praised reference book “Health Care Politics and Policy A to Z,” now in its third edition.

With Medicare and Social Security apparently off the table for federal budget cuts, the focus has turned to Medicaid, the federal-state health program for those with low incomes. President Joe Biden has made it clear he wants to protect the program, along with the Affordable Care Act, but Republicans will likely propose cuts to both when they present a proposed budget in the next several weeks.

Meanwhile, confusion over abortion restrictions continues, particularly at the FDA. One lawsuit in Texas calls for a federal judge to temporarily halt distribution of the abortion pill mifepristone. A separate suit, though, asks a different federal judge to temporarily make the drug easier to get, by removing some of the FDA’s safety restrictions.

This week’s panelists are Julie Rovner of Kaiser Health News, Alice Miranda Ollstein of Politico, Rachel Cohrs of STAT News, and Lauren Weber of The Washington Post.

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Rachel Cohrs
Stat News

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Alice Miranda Ollstein
Politico

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Lauren Weber
The Washington Post

@LaurenWeberHP

Read Lauren's stories

Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:

• States are working to review Medicaid eligibility for millions of people as pandemic-era coverage rules lapse at the end of March, amid fears that many Americans kicked off Medicaid who are eligible for free or near-free coverage under the ACA won’t know their options and will go uninsured.
• Biden promised this week to stop Republicans from “gutting” Medicaid and the ACA. But not all Republicans are on board with cuts to Medicaid. Between the party’s narrow majority in the House and the fact that Medicaid pays for nursing homes for many seniors, cutting the program is a politically dicey move.
• A national group that pushed the use of ivermectin to treat covid-19 is now hyping the drug as a treatment for flu and RSV — despite a lack of clinical evidence to support their claims that it is effective against any of those illnesses. Nonetheless, there is a movement of people, many of them doctors, who believe ivermectin works.
• In reproductive health news, a federal judge recently ruled that a Texas law cannot be used to prosecute groups that help women travel out of state to obtain abortions. And the abortion issue has highlighted the role of attorneys general around the country — politicizing a formerly nonpartisan state post. –And Eli Lilly announced plans to cut the price of some insulin products and cap out-of-pocket costs, though their reasons may not be completely altruistic: An expert pointed out that a change to Medicaid rebates next year means drugmakers soon will have to pay the government every time a patient fills a prescription for insulin, meaning Eli Lilly’s plan could save the company money.

Plus, for “extra credit,” the panelists suggest health policy stories they read this week that they think you should read, too:

Julie Rovner: The New York Times’ “A Drug Company Exploited a Safety Requirement to Make Money,” by Rebecca Robbins.

Alice Miranda Ollstein: The New York Times’ “Alone and Exploited, Migrant Children Work Brutal Jobs Across the U.S.,” by Hannah Dreier.

Rachel Cohrs: STAT News’ “Nonprofit Hospitals Are Failing Americans. Their Boards May Be a Reason Why,” by Sanjay Kishore and Suhas Gondi.

Lauren Weber: KHN and CBS News’ “This Dental Device Was Sold to Fix Patients’ Jaws. Lawsuits Claim It Wrecked Their Teeth,” by Brett Kelman and Anna Werner.

Also mentioned in this week’s podcast:

• Politico’s “Why One State’s Plan to Unwind a Covid-Era Medicaid Rule Is Raising Red Flags,” by Megan Messerly.
• The Washington Post’s “Doctors Who Touted Ivermectin as Covid Fix Now Pushing It for Flu, RSV,” by Lauren Weber.
• NPR’s “To Safeguard Healthy Twins in Utero, She Had to ‘Escape’ Texas for Abortion Procedure,” by Selena Simmons-Duffin.
• The Daily Beast’s “Tennessee Abortion Ban a ‘Nightmare’ for Woman With Doomed Pregnancy,” by Michael Daly.

click to open the transcript

Transcript: March Medicaid Madness

KHN’s ‘What the Health?’Episode Title: Medicaid March MadnessEpisode Number: 287Published: March 2, 2023

Julie Rovner: Hello and welcome back to KHN’s “What the Health?” I’m Julie Rovner, chief Washington correspondent at Kaiser Health News. And I’m joined by some of the best and smartest health reporters in Washington. We are taping this week on Thursday, March 2, at 10 a.m. As always, news happens fast, and things might have changed by the time you hear this. So, here we go. We are joined today via video conference by Alice Miranda Ollstein of Politico.

Alice Miranda Ollstein: Good morning.

Rovner: Rachel Cohrs of Stat News.

Rachel Cohrs: Hi, everybody.

Rovner: And we officially welcome to the podcast panel this week Lauren Weber, ex of KHN and now at The Washington Post covering a cool new beat on health and science disinformation. Lauren, welcome back to the podcast.

Lauren Weber: Thanks for having me.

Rovner: So we’re going to get right to this week’s news. We’ve talked a lot about the political fight swirling around Medicare the past couple of weeks. So this week, I want to talk more about Medicaid. Our regular listeners will know, or should know, that states are beginning to re-determine eligibility for people who got on Medicaid during the covid pandemic and were allowed to stay on until now. In fact, Arkansas is vowing to re-determine eligibility for half a million people over the next six months. Alice, the last time Arkansas tried to do something bureaucratically complicated with Medicaid, it didn’t turn out so well, did it?

Ollstein: No. It was so much of a cautionary tale that no other state until now has gone down that path, although now at least a couple are attempting to. So Arkansas was the only state to actually move forward under the Trump administration with implementing Medicaid work requirements. And we covered it at the time, and just thousands and thousands of people lost coverage who should have qualified. They were working. They just couldn’t navigate the reporting system. Part of the problem was that you had to report your working hours online and a lot of people who are poor don’t have access to the internet. And, you know, the system was buggy and clunky and it was just a huge mess. But that is not stopping the state from trying again on several fronts. One, they want to do Medicaid work requirements again. The governor, Sarah Huckabee Sanders, has said that they plan to do that and also they plan to do their redeterminations for the end of the public health emergency in half the time the federal government would like states to take to do it. The federal government has incentives for states to go slow and take a full year to make sure people know how to prove whether or not they qualify for Medicaid and to learn what other insurance coverage options might be available to them. For instance, you know, Obamacare plans that are free or almost free.

Rovner: Yeah. Presumably most of the people who are no longer eligible for Medicaid but are still low-income will be eligible for Obamacare with hefty subsidies.

Ollstein: That’s right. So the fear is that history will repeat itself. A lot of people who should be covered will be dropped from coverage and won’t even know it because the state didn’t take the time to contact people and seek them out.

Rovner: This is something that we will certainly follow as it plays out over the next year. More broadly, though, there have been whispers — well, more than whispers, whines — over the past couple of weeks that President [Joe] Biden’s challenge to Republicans not to cut Social Security and Medicare, and Republicans’ apparent acceptance of that challenge, specifically leaves out Medicaid. Now, I never thought that was true, at least for the Democrats. But earlier this week, President Biden extended his promises to Medicaid and the Affordable Care Act. How much of a threat is there really to Medicaid in the coming budget battles? Rachel, you wrote about that today.

Cohrs: There is a lot of anxiety swirling around this on the Hill. I know there’s a former Trump White House official who’s circulated some documents that are making people a little bit nervous about Republicans’ position. But it is useful to look at existing documents out there. It is not reflective necessarily of the consensus Republican position. And it’s a very diverse party right now in the House. They have an incredibly narrow majority and Kevin McCarthy is really going to have to walk a tightrope here. And I think it is important to remember that when Medicaid has come up on steep ballot initiatives in red states, so many times it has passed overwhelmingly. So I think there is an argument to be made that Medicaid enjoys more political support among the GOP voting populace than maybe it does among members of Congress. So I think I am viewing it with caution. You know, obviously, it’s something that we’re going to have to be tracking and watching as these negotiations develop. But Democrats still hold the Senate and they still hold the presidency. So Republicans have more leverage than they did last Congress, but they’re still … Democrats still have a lot of sway here.

Rovner: Although I’ll just point out, as I think I pointed out before, that in 2017, when the Republicans tried to repeal the Affordable Care Act, one of the things they discovered is that Medicaid is actually kind of popular. I think … much to their surprise, they discovered that Medicaid is also kind of popular, maybe not as much as Medicare, but more than I think they thought. So I guess the budget wars really get started next week: We get President Biden’s budget, right?

Ollstein: And House Republicans are allegedly working on something. We don’t know when it will come or how much detail it will have, but it will be some sort of counter to Biden’s budget. But, you know, the real work will come later, in hashing it out in negotiations. And, really, a small number of people will be involved in that. And so just like Rachel said, you know, you’re going to see a lot of proposals thrown out over the next several months. Not all of them should necessarily be taken seriously or taken as determinative. Just one last interesting thing: This has been a really interesting education time, both for lawmakers and the public on just who is covered under these programs. I mean, the idea is that Medicare is so untouchable, is this third rail, because it is primarily seniors, and seniors vote. And seniors are more politically important to conservatives and Republicans. But people forget a lot of seniors are also on Medicaid. They get their nursing home coverage through there. And so I’ve heard a lot of Democratic lawmakers really hammering that argument lately and saying, look, you know, the stereotype for Medicaid is that it’s just poor adults, but …

Rovner: Yeah, moms and kids. That was how it started out.

Ollstein: Exactly.

Rovner: It was poor moms and kids.

Ollstein: Exactly. But it’s a lot more than that now. And it is more politically dicey to go after it than maybe people think.

Rovner: Yeah, I think Nancy Pelosi … in 2017 when, you know, if the threat with Medicare is throwing Granny off the cliff in her wheelchair, the threat of Medicaid is throwing Granny out of her nursing home, both of which have their political perils. All right. Well, we’ll definitely see this one play out for a while. I want to move to the public health beat. Lauren, you had a really cool story on the front page of The Washington Post this week about how the promise of ivermectin to treat infectious diseases in humans. And for those who forget, ivermectin is an anti-wormer drug that I give to my horse and both of my dogs. But the idea of using it for various infectious diseases just won’t die. What is the latest ivermectin craze?

Weber: Yes, and to be clear, there is an ivermectin that is a pill that can be given to humans, which is what these folks are talking about. But there’s this group called the Front Line COVID-19 Critical Care Alliance that really pushed ivermectin in the height of covid. As we all know on this podcast, scientific study after scientific study after clinical trial has disproved that there is any efficacy for that. But this group has continued to push it. And I discovered, looking at their website back this winter, that they’re now pushing it for the flu and RSV. And as I asked the CDC [Centers for Disease Control and Prevention] and medical experts, there’s no clinical data to support pushing that for the flu or RSV. And, you know, as one scientist said to me, they had data that … had antiviral properties in a test tube. But as one scientist said to me, well, if you put Coca-Cola in a test tube, it would show it had antiviral properties as well. So there’s a lot of pushback to these folks. But, that said, they told me that they have had their protocols downloaded over a million times. You know, they’re … absolutely have some prominence and have, you know, converted a share of the American population to the belief that this is a useful medical treatment for them. And one of the doctors that has left their group over their support of ivermectin said to me, “Look, I’m not surprised that they’re continuing to push this for something else. This is what they do now. They push this for other things.” And so it’s quite interesting to see this continue to play out as we continue into covid, to see them kind of expand, as these folks said to me, into other diseases.

Rovner: I know I mean, usually when we see these kinds of things, it’s because the people who are pushing them are also selling them and making money off of them. And I know that’s the case in some of this, but a lot of these are just doctors who are writing prescriptions for ivermectin. Right? I mean, this is an actual belief that they have.

Weber: Yeah, some of them do make money off of telehealth appointments. They can charge up to a couple hundred dollars for telehealth appointments. And one of the couple of co-founders had a lucrative Substack and book deal that talks about ivermectin and do get paid by this alliance. One of them made almost a quarter of a million dollars in salary from the alliance. But yeah, I mean, the average doctor that’s prescribing ivermectin, I mean — there were over 400,000 ivermectin prescriptions in, I think, it was August of 2021. So that’s a lot of prescriptions.

Rovner: They’re not all making money off of it.

Weber: They’re not all making money. And I mean, what’s wild to me is Merck has come out and said, which, in a very rare statement for a pharmaceutical company, you know, don’t prescribe our drug for this. And when I asked them about RSV and the flu, they said, yeah, our statement would still stand on that. So it’s a movement, to some extent. And the folks I talked to about it, they really believe …

Rovner: And I will say, for a while in 2021, you couldn’t get horse wormer, which is a very nasty-tasting paste, even the horses don’t really like it. Because it was hard to get ivermectin at all. So we’ll see where this goes next. Here’s one of those “in case you missed It” stories. The Tulsa World this week has an interview with former Republican Sen. James Inhofe, who said, in his blunt Inhofe way, that he retired last year not only because he’s 88, but because he’s still suffering the effects of long covid. And he’s not the only one — quote, “five or six others have [long covid], but I’m the only one who admits it,” he told the paper, referring to other members of the Senate, presumably other Republican members of the Senate. Now, mind you, the very conservative Inhofe voted against just about every covid funding bill. And my impression from not going to the Hill regularly in 2021 and 2022 is that while covid seemed to be floating around in the air, lots of people were getting it, very few people seemed to be getting very sick. But now we’re thinking that’s not really the case, right?

Ollstein: When I saw this, I immediately went back to a story I wrote about a year ago on Tim Kaine’s long covid diagnosis and his attempts to convince his colleagues to put more research funding or treatment funding, more basic covid prevention funding … you know, fewer people will get long covid if fewer people get covid in the first place. And there was just zero appetite on the Republican side for that. And that’s why a lot of it didn’t end up passing. Inhofe was one of the Republicans I talked to, and I said, you know, do you think you should do more about long covid? What do you think about this? And this is what he told me: “I have other priorities. We’re handling all we can right now.” And then he added that long covid is not that well defined. And he argued there’s no way to determine how many people are affected. Well.

Rovner: OK.

Ollstein: So that … in “Quotes That Aged Poorly Hall of Fame.”

Rovner: You know, obviously Tim Kaine came forward and talked about it. But now I’m wondering if there are people who are slowing down or looking like they’re not well, maybe they have long covid and don’t want to say.

Ollstein: Well, I mean, something that Tim Kaine’s case shows is that there’s no one thing it can look like and somebody can look completely healthy and normal on the outside and be suffering symptoms. And Tim Kaine has also said that members of Congress have quietly disclosed to him and thanked him for speaking up, but said they weren’t willing to do it themselves. And he, Tim Kaine, told me that he felt more comfortable speaking up because the kind of symptoms he had were less stigmatized. They weren’t anything in terms of impeding his mental capacity and function. And there’s just a lot of stigma and fear of people coming forward and admitting they’re having a problem.

Rovner: I find it kind of ironic that last week we talked about how, you know, members of Congress and politicians with mental health, you know, normally stigmatizing problems are more willing to talk about it. And yet here are people with long covid not willing to talk about it. So maybe we’ll see a little bit more after this or maybe not. I want to talk a little bit about artificial intelligence and health care. I’ve been wanting to talk about this for a while, but this week seems to be everyone is talking about AI. There have been a spate of stories about how different types of artificial intelligence are aiding in medical care, but also some cautionary tales, particularly about chat engines. They get all their information from the internet, good or bad. Now, we already have robots that do intricate surgeries and lots and lots of treatment algorithms. On the other hand, the little bit of AI that I already have that’s medical-oriented, my Fitbit, that sometimes accurately tracks my exercise and sometimes doesn’t, and the chat bot from my favorite chain drugstore that honestly cannot keep my medication straight. None of that makes me terribly optimistic about launching into health AI. Is this, like most tech, going to roll out a little before it’s ready and then we’ll work the bugs out? Or maybe are we going to be a little bit more careful with some of this stuff?

Cohrs: I think we’ve already seen some examples of things rolling out before they’re exactly ready. And I just thought of my colleague Casey Ross’ reporting on Epic’s algorithm that was supposed to help …

Rovner: Epic, the electronic medical records company.

Cohrs: Yes, yes. They had this algorithm that was supposed to help doctors treat sepsis patients, and it didn’t work. The problem with using AI in health care is that there are life-and-death consequences for some of these things. If you’re misdiagnosing someone, if you’re giving them medicine they don’t need, there are, like, those big consequences. But there are also the smaller ones too. And my colleague Brittany Trang wrote about how with doctor’s notes or transcripts of conversations between a physician and a patient sometimes AI has difficulty differentiating between an “mm-hm” or an “uh-huh” and telling whether that’s a yes or a no. And so I think that there’s just all of these really fascinating issues that we’re going to have to work through. And I think there is enormous potential, certainly, and I think there’s getting more experimentation. But like you said, I think in health care it’s just a very different beast when you’re rolling things out and making sure that they work.

Weber: Yeah, I wanted to add, I mean, one of the things that I found really interesting is that doctors’ offices are using some of it to reduce some of the administrative burden. As we all know, prior authorizations suck up a lot of time for doctors’ offices. And it seems like this has actually been really helpful for them. That said, I mean, that comes with the caveat of — my colleagues and I and much reporting has shown that — sometimes these things just make up references for studies. They just make it up. That level of “Is this just a made-up study that supports what I’m saying?” I think is really jarring. This isn’t quite like using Google. It cannot be trusted to the level … and I think people do have caution with it and they will have to continue to have caution with it. But I think we’re really only at the forefront of figuring out how this all plays out.

Rovner: I was talking before we started taping about how I got a text from my favorite chain drugstore saying that I was out of refills and that they would call my doctor, which is fine. And then they said, “Text ‘Yes’ if you would like us to call” … some other doctor. I’m like, “Who the heck is this other doctor?” And then I realize he’s the doctor I saw at urgent care last September when I burned myself. I’m like, “Why on earth would you even have him in your system?” So, you know, that’s the sort of thing … it’s like, we’re going to be really helpful and do something really stupid. I worry that Congress, in trying to regulate tech, and failing so far — I mean, we’ve seen how much they do and don’t know about, you know, Facebook and Instagram and the hand-wringing over TikTok because it’s owned by the Chinese — I can’t imagine any kind of serious, thoughtful regulation on this. We’re going to have to basically rely on the medical industry to decide how to roll this out, right? Or might somebody step in?

Ollstein: I mean, there could be agency, you know, rulemaking, potentially. But, yes, it’s the classic conundrum of technology evolving way faster than government can act to regulate it. I mean, we see that on so many fronts. I mean, look how long has gone without any kind of update. And, you know, the kinds of ways health information is shared are completely different from when that law was written, so …

Rovner: Indeed.

Weber: And as Rachel said, I mean, this is life-or-death consequences in some places. So the slowness with which the government regulates things could really have a problem here, because this is not something that is just little …

Rovner: Of the things that keep me awake at night, this is one of the things that keeps me awake at night. All right. Well, one of these weeks, we will not have a ton of reproductive health news. But this week isn’t it. As of this taping, we still have not gotten a decision in that Texas case challenging the FDA approval of the abortion pill, mifepristone, back in the year 2000. But there’s plenty of other abortion news happening in the Lone Star State. First, a federal judge in Texas who was not handpicked by the anti-abortion groups ruled that Texas officials cannot enforce the state’s abortion ban against groups who help women get abortion out of state, including abortion funds that help women get the money to go out of state to get an abortion. The judge also questioned whether the state’s pre-Roe ban is even in effect or has actually been repealed, although there are overlapping bans in the state that … so that wouldn’t make abortion legal. But still, this is a win for the abortion rights side, right, Alice?

Ollstein: Yeah, I think the right knows that there are two main ways that people are still getting abortions who live in ban states. They’re traveling out of state or they are ordering pills in the mail. And so they are moving to try to cut off both of those avenues. And, you know, running into some difficulty in doing so, both in the courts and just practically in terms of enforcing. This is part of that bigger battle to try to cut off, you know, people’s remaining avenues to access the procedure.

Rovner: Well, speaking exactly of that, Texas being Texas, this week, we saw a bill introduced in the state legislature that would ban the websites that include information about how to get abortion pills and would punish internet providers that fail to block those sites. It would also overturn the court ruling we just talked about by allowing criminal prosecution of anyone who helps someone get an abortion. Even a year ago, I would have said this is an obvious legislative overreach, but this is Texas. So now maybe not so much.

Ollstein: I mean, I think lots of states are just throwing things at the wall to see what sticks and to see what gets through the courts. You had states test the waters on banning certain kinds of out-of-state travel, and that hasn’t gone anywhere yet. But even things that don’t end up passing and being implemented can have a chilling effect. You have a lot of confusion right now. You have a lot of people not sure what’s legal, what’s not. And if you create this atmosphere of fear where people might be afraid to go out of state, might be afraid to ask for funding to go out of state, afraid to Google around and see what their options are that serves the intended impacts of these proposals, in terms of preventing people from exploring their options and seeing what they can do to terminate a pregnancy.

Rovner: Yeah. Well, meanwhile, a dozen states that are not named Texas are suing the FDA, trying to get it to roll back some of the prescribing requirements around the abortion pill. The states are arguing that not only are the risk-mitigation rules unnecessary, given the proven safety of mifepristone, but that some of the certification requirements could invade the privacy of patients and prescribers and subject them to harassment or worse. They’re asking the judge to halt enforcement of the restrictions while the case is being litigated. That could run right into [U.S. District] Judge [Matthew] Kacsmaryk’s possible injunction in Texas banning mifepristone nationwide. Then what happens? If you’ve got one judge saying, “OK, you can’t sell this nationwide,” and another judge saying … “Of course you can sell it, and you can’t use these safety restrictions that the FDA has put around it.” Then the FDA has two conflicting decisions in front of it.

Weber: Yeah, and I find the battles of the AGs and the abortion wars are really fascinating because, I mean, this is a lawsuit brought by states, which is attorneys general, Democratic attorneys general. And you’re seeing that play out. I mean, you see that in Texas, too, with [Ken] Paxton. You see it in Michigan with [Dana] Nessel. I mean, I would argue one of the things that attorney generals have been the most prominent on in the last several decades of American history and have actually had immediate effects on due to the fall of Roe v. Wade. So we’ll see what happens. But it is fascinating to see in real time this proxy battle, so to speak, between the two sides play out across the states and across the country.

Rovner: No, it’s funny. State AGs did do the tobacco settlement.

Weber: Yes.

Rovner: I mean, that would not have happened. But what was interesting about that is that it was very bipartisan.

Weber: Well, they were on the same side.

Rovner: And this is not.

Weber: Yeah, I mean, yeah, they were on the same side. This is a different deal. And I think to some extent, and I did some reporting on this last year, it speaks to the politicization of that office and what that office has become and how it’s become, frankly, a huge launching pad for people’s political careers. And the rhetoric there often is really notched up to the highest levels on both sides. So, you know, as we continue to see that play out, I think a lot of these folks will end up being folks you see on the national stage for quite some time.

Ollstein: I’ve been really interested in the states where the attorney general has clashed with other parts of their own state government. And so in North Carolina, for example, right now you have the current Democratic attorney general who is planning to run for governor. And he said, I’m not going to defend our state restrictions on abortion pills in court because I agree with the people challenging them. And then you have the Republican state legislatures saying, well, if he’s not going to defend these laws, we will. So that kind of clash has happened in Kentucky and other states where the attorney general is not always on the same side with other state officials.

Rovner: If that’s not confusing enough, we have a story out of Mississippi this week, one of the few states where voters technically have the ability to put a question on the ballot, except that process has been blocked for the moment by a technicality. Now, Republican legislators are proposing to restart the ballot initiative process. They would fix the technicality, but not for abortion questions. Reading from the AP story here, quote, “If the proposed new initiative process is adopted, state legislators would be the only people in Mississippi with the power to change abortion laws.” Really? I mean, it’s hard to conceive that they could say you can have a ballot question, but not on this.

Ollstein: This is, again, part of a national trend. There are several Republican-controlled states that are moving right now to attempt to limit the ability of people to put a measure on the ballot. And this, you know, comes as a direct result of last year. Six states had abortion-related referendums on their ballot. And in all six, the pro-abortion rights side won. Each one was a little different. We don’t need to get into it, but that’s the important thing. And so people voted pretty overwhelmingly, even in really red states like Kentucky and Montana. And so other states that fear that could happen there are now moving to make that process harder in different ways. You have Mississippi trying to do, like, a carve-out where nothing on abortion can make it through. Other states are just trying to raise, like, the signature threshold or the vote threshold people need to get these passed. There are a lot of different ways they’re going about it.

Rovner: I covered the Mississippi “personhood” amendment back in 2011. It was the first statewide vote on, you know, granting personhood to fetuses. And everybody assumed it was going to win, and it didn’t, even in Mississippi. So I think there’s reason for the legislators who are trying to re-stand up this ballot initiative process to worry about what might come up and how the voters might vote on it. Well, because I continue to hear people say that women trying to have babies are not being affected by state abortion bans and restrictions, this week we have not one but two stories of pregnant women who were very much impacted by abortion bans. One from NPR is the story of a Texas woman pregnant with twins — except one twin had genetic defects not only incompatible with life, but that threatened the life of both the other twin and the pregnant woman. She not only had to leave the state for a procedure to preserve her own life and that of the surviving twin, but doctors in Texas couldn’t even tell her explicitly what was going on for fear of being brought up on charges of violating the state’s ban. I think, Alice, you were the one talking about how, you know, women are afraid to Google. Doctors are afraid to say anything.

Ollstein: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it’s a really chilling and litigious environment right now. And I think, as more and more of these stories start to come forward, I think that is spurring the debates you’re seeing in a lot of states right now about adding or clarifying or expanding the kind of exceptions that exist on these bans. So you have very heated debates going on right now in Utah and Tennessee and in several states around, you know, should we add more exceptions because there are some Republican lawmakers who are looking at these really tragic stories that are trickling out and saying, “This isn’t what we intended when we voted for this ban. Let’s go back and revisit.” Whether exceptions even work when they are on the books is another question that we can discuss. I mean, we have seen them not be effective in other states and people not able to navigate them.

Rovner: We’ve seen a lot of these stories about women whose water broke early and at what point is it threatening her life? How close to death does she have to be before doctors can step in? I mean, we’ve seen four or five of these. It’s not like they’re one-offs. The other story this week is from the Daily Beast. It’s about a 28-year-old Tennessee woman whose fetus had anomalies with its heart, brain, and kidneys. That woman also had to leave the state at her own expense to protect her own health. Is there a point where anti-abortion forces might realize they are actually deterring women who want babies from getting pregnant for fear of complications that they won’t be able to get treated?

Ollstein: Most of the pushback I’ve seen from anti-abortion groups, they claim that the state laws are fine and that doctors are misinterpreting them. And there is a semantic tug of war going on right now where anti-abortion groups are trying to argue that intervening in a medical emergency shouldn’t even count as an abortion. Doctors argue, no, it is an abortion. It’s the same procedure medically, and thus we are afraid to do it under the current law. And the anti-abortion groups are saying, “Oh, no, you’re saying that in bad faith; that doesn’t count as an abortion. An abortion is when it’s intended to kill the fetus.” So you’re having this challenging tug of war, and it’s not really clear what states are going to do. There’s a lot of state bills on this making their way through legislatures right now.

Rovner: And doctors and patients are caught in the middle. Well, finally this week, Eli Lilly announced it would lower, in some cases dramatically, the list prices for some of its insulin products. You may remember that, last year, Democrats in Congress passed a $35-per-month cap for Medicare beneficiaries but couldn’t get those last few votes to apply the cap to the rest of the population. Lilly is getting very good press. Its stock price went up, even though it’s not really capping all the out-of-pocket costs for insulin for everybody. But I’m guessing they’re not doing this out of the goodness of their drugmaking heart, right, Rachel?

Cohrs: Probably not. Even though there’s a quote from their CEO that implied that that was the case. I think there was one drug pricing expert at West Health Policy Center, Sean Dickson, who is very sharp on these issues, knows the programs well. And he pointed out that there’s a new policy going into effect in Medicaid next year, and it’s really, really wonky and complicated. But I’ll do my best to try to explain that, generally, in the Medicare program, rebates are capped, or they have been historically, at the price of the drug. So you can’t charge a drugmaker a rebate that’s higher than the cost. But …

Rovner: That would make sense.

Cohrs: Right. But that math can get kind of wonky when there are really high drug price increases and then that math gets really messed up. But Congress, I want to say it was in 2021, tweaked this policy to discourage those big price increases. And they said, you know what? We’re going to raise the rebate cap in Medicaid, which means that, drugmakers, if you are taking really big price increases, you may have to pay us every time someone on Medicaid fills those prescriptions. And I think people thought about insulin right away as a drug that has these really high rebates already and could be a candidate disproportionately impacted by this policy. So I thought that was an interesting point that Sean made about the timing of this. That change is supposed to go into effect early next year. So this could, in theory, save Lilly a lot of money in the Medicaid program because we don’t know exactly what their net prices were before.

Rovner: But this is very convenient.

Cohrs: It’s convenient. And there’s a chance that they’re not really losing any money right now, depending on how their contracts work with insurers. So I think, yeah, there is definitely a possibility for some ulterior motives here.

Rovner: And plus, the thing that I learned this week that I hadn’t known before is that there are starting to be some generic competition. The three big insulin makers, which are Lilly, Sanofi, and Novo Nordisk, may actually not become the, almost, the only insulin maker. So it’s probably in Lilly’s interest to step forward now. And, you know, they’re reducing the prices on their most popular insulins, but not necessarily their most expensive insulin. So I think there’s still money to be made in this segment. But they sure did get, you know, I watched all the stories come across. It’s, like, it’s all, oh, look at this great thing that Lilly has done and that everything’s going to be cheap. And it’s, like, not quite. But …

Cohrs: But it is different. It’s a big step. And I think …

Rovner: It is. It is.

Cohrs: Somebody has to go first in breaking this cycle. And I think it will be interesting to see how that plays out for them and whether the other two companies do follow suit. Sen. Bernie Sanders asked them to and said, you know, why don’t you just all do the same thing and lower prices on more products? So, yeah, we’ll see how it plays out.

Weber: Day to day, I mean, that’s a huge difference for people. I mean, that is a lot of money. That is a big deal. So, I mean, you know, no matter what the motivation, at the end of the day, I think the American public will be much happier with having to pay a lot less for insulin.

Rovner: Yeah, I’m just saying that not everybody who takes insulin is going to pay a lot less for insulin.

Weber: Right. Which is very fair, very fair.

Rovner: But many more people than before, which is, I think, why it got lauded by everybody. Although I will … I wrote in my notes, please, someone mention Josh Hawley taking credit and calling for legislation. Sen. Hawley from Missouri, who voted against extending the $35 cap, as all Republicans did, to the rest of the population, put out a tweet yesterday that was, like, this is a great thing and now we should have, you know, legislation to follow up. And I’m like: OK.

Cohrs: You’ll have to check on that. I actually think Hawley may have voted for it.

Rovner: Oh, a-ha. All right.

Cohrs: There were a few Republicans.

Rovner: Thank you.

Cohrs: It’s not enough, though.

Rovner: Yeah, I remember that they couldn’t get those last few votes. Yes, I think [Sen. Joe] Manchin voted against. He was the one, the last Democrat they couldn’t get right. That’s why they ended up dropping …

Cohrs: Uh, it had to be a 60-vote threshold, so …

Rovner: Oh, that’s right.

Cohrs: Yeah.

Rovner: All right. Good. Thank you. Good point, Rachel. All right. Well, that is the news for this week. Now it is time for our extra-credit segment. That’s when we each recommend a story we read this week we think you should read, too. As always, don’t worry if you miss it. We will post the links on the podcast page at khn.org and in our show notes on your phone or other mobile device. Alice, why don’t you go first this week?

Ollstein: Yeah. So I did the incredible New York Times investigation by Hannah Dreier on child labor. This is about undocumented, unaccompanied migrant children who are coming to the U.S. And the reason I’m bringing it up on our podcast is there is a health angle. So HHS [the Department of Health and Human Services], their Office of Refugee Resettlement has jurisdiction over these kids’ welfare and making sure they are safe. And that is not happening right now. The system is so overwhelmed that they have been cutting corners in how they vet the sponsors that they release the kids to. Of course, we remember that there were tons of problems with these kids being detained and kept for way too long and that being a huge threat to their physical and mental health. But this is sort of the pendulum has swung too far in the opposite direction, and they’re being released to people who in some cases straight up trafficking them and in other cases just forcing them to work and drop out of school, even if it’s not a trafficking situation. And so this reporting has already had an impact. The HHS has announced all these new initiatives to try to stop this. So we’ll see if they are effective. But really moving, incredible reporting.

Rovner: Yeah, it was an incredible story. Lauren.

Weber: I’m going to shout out my former KHN colleague Brett Kelman. I loved his piece on, I guess you can’t call it a medical device because it wasn’t approved by the FDA, which is the point of the story. But this device that was supposed to fix your jaw so you didn’t have to have expensive jaw surgery. Well, what it ended up doing is it messed up all these people’s teeth and totally destroyed their mouths and left them with a bunch more medical and dental bills. And, you know, what I find interesting about the story, what I find interesting about the trend in general is the problem is, they never applied for anything with the FDA. So people were using this device, but they didn’t check, they didn’t know. And I think that speaks to the American public’s perception that devices and medical devices and things like this are safe to use. But a lot of times the FDA regulations are outdated or are not on top of this or the agency is so understaffed and not investigating that things like this slipped through the cracks. And then you have people — and it’s 10,000 patients, I believe, that have used this tool — that did not do what it is supposed to do and, in fact, injured them along the way. And I think that the FDA piece of that is really interesting. It’s something I’ve run into before looking at air cleaners and how they fit the gaps of that. And I think it’s something we’re going to continue to see as we examine how these agencies are really stacking up to the evolution of technology today.

Rovner: Yeah, capitalism is going to push everything. Rachel.

Cohrs: So my extra credit this week is actually an opinion piece, in Stat, and the headline is “Nonprofit Hospitals Are Failing Americans. Their Boards May Be a Reason Why.” It was written by Sanjay Kishore and Suhas Gondi. I think the part that really stood out to me is they analyzed the backgrounds and makeups of hospital boards, especially nonprofit hospitals. I think they analyzed like 20 large facilities. And the statistic that really surprised me was that, I think, 44% of those board members came from the financial sector representing investment funds, real estate, and other entities. Less than 15% were health care workers, 13% were physicians, and less than 1% were nurses. And, you know, I’ve spent a lot of time and we’ve spent a lot of time thinking about just how nonprofit hospitals are operating as businesses. And I think a lot of other publications have done great work as well making that point. But I think this is just a stark statistic that shows these boards that are supposed to be holding these organizations accountable are thinking about the bottom line, because that’s what the financial services sector is all about, and that there’s so much disproportionately less clinical representation. So obviously hospitals need admin sides to run, and they are businesses, and a lot of them don’t have very large margins. But the statistics just really surprised me as to the balance there.

Rovner: Yeah, I felt like this is one, you know, we’ve all been sort of enmeshed in this, you know, what are we going to do about the nonprofit hospitals that are not actually acting as charitable institutions? But I think the boards had been something that I had not seen anybody else look at until now. So it’s a really interesting piece. All right. Well, my story this week is the other big investigation from The New York Times. It’s called “A Drug Company Exploited a Safety Requirement to Make Money,” by Rebecca Robbins. And it’s about those same risk-mitigation rules from the FDA that are at the heart of those abortion drug lawsuits we talked about a few minutes ago. Except in this case, the drug company in question, Jazz Pharmaceuticals, somehow patented its risk-mitigation strategy as the distribution center — it’s actually called the REMS [Risk Evaluation and Mitigation Strategies] — which is managed to fend off generic competition for the company’s narcolepsy drug. It had also had a response already. It has produced a bipartisan bill in the Senate to close the loophole — but [I’ll] never underestimate the creativity of drugmakers when it comes to protecting their profit. It’s quite a story. OK. That’s our show for this week. As always, if you enjoy the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left us a review; that helps other people find us, too. Special thanks, as always, to our ever-patient producer, Francis Ying. Also, as always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth — all one word — at kff.org. Or you can tweet me. I’m @jrovner. Alice?

Ollstein: @AliceOllstein

Rovner: Rachel.

Cohrs: @rachelcohrs

Rovner: Lauren.

Weber: @LaurenWeberHP

Rovner: We will be back in your feed next week. In the meantime, be healthy.

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Julie Rovner is chief Washington correspondent and host of KHN’s weekly health policy news podcast, “What the Health?” A noted expert on health policy issues, Julie is the author of the critically praised reference book “Health Care Politics and Policy A to Z,” now in its third edition.

Teen girls “are experiencing record high levels of violence, sadness, and suicide risk,” according to a new survey from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. In 2021, according to the survey, nearly 3 in 5 U.S. teen girls reported feeling “persistently sad or hopeless.”

Meanwhile, a conservative judge in Texas has delayed his ruling in a case that could ban a key drug used in medication abortion. A group of anti-abortion doctors is suing to challenge the FDA’s approval decades ago of the abortion pill mifepristone.

This week’s panelists are Julie Rovner of KHN, Alice Miranda Ollstein of Politico, Joanne Kenen of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico, and Sandhya Raman of CQ Roll Call.

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Alice Miranda Ollstein
Politico

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Joanne Kenen
Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico

@JoanneKenen

Read Joanne's stories

Sandhya Raman
CQ Roll Call

@SandhyaWrites

Read Sandhya's stories

Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:

• American teenagers reported record rates of sadness in 2021, with especially high levels of depression in girls and teens identifying as LGBTQ+, according to a startling CDC report. Sexual violence, mass shootings, cyberbullying, and climate change are among the intensifying problems plaguing young people.
• New polling shows more Americans are dissatisfied with abortion policy than ever before, as a U.S. district court judge in Texas makes a last call for arguments on the fate of mifepristone. The case is undermining confidence in continued access to the drug, and many providers are discussing using only misoprostol for medication abortions. Misoprostol is used with mifepristone in the current two-drug regimen but is safe and effective, though slightly less so, when used on its own.
• There are big holes in federal health privacy protections, and some companies that provide health care, like mental health services, exploit those loopholes to sell personal, identifying information about their customers. And this week, Republican Gov. Glenn Youngkin of Virginia blocked a state law that would have banned search warrants for data collected by menstrual tracking apps.
• California plans to manufacture insulin, directly taking on high prices for the diabetes drug. While other states have expressed interest in following suit, it will likely be up to wealthy, populous California to prove the concept.

Plus, for “extra credit” the panelists suggest health policy stories they read this week that they think you should read, too:

Julie Rovner: NPR’s “Is the Deadly Fungi Pandemic in ‘The Last of Us’ Actually Possible?” by Michaeleen Doucleff

Alice Ollstein: The New York Times’ “Childbirth Is Deadlier for Black Families Even When They’re Rich, Expansive Study Finds,” by Claire Cain Miller, Sarah Kliff, and Larry Buchanan; interactive produced by Larry Buchanan and Shannon Lin

Joanne Kenen: NPR’s “In Tennessee, a Medicaid Mix-Up Could Land You on a ‘Most Wanted’ List,” by Blake Farmer

Sandhya Raman: Bloomberg Businessweek’s “Zantac’s Maker Kept Quiet About Cancer Risks for 40 Years,” by Anna Edney, Susan Berfield, and Jef Feeley

Also mentioned in this week’s podcast:

• The CDC’s “U.S. Teen Girls Experiencing Increased Sadness and Violence”
• The Fun Violence Archive’s “Mass Shootings in 2023”
• The Washington Post’s “Now for Sale: Data on Your Mental Health,” by Drew Harwell

Click to open the transcript

Transcript: The Kids Are Not OK

KHN’s ‘What the Health?’Episode Title: The Kids Are Not OKEpisode Number: 285Published: Feb. 16, 2023

Julie Rovner: Hello and welcome back to KHN’s “What the Health?” I’m Julie Rovner, chief Washington correspondent at Kaiser Health News. And I’m joined by some of the best and smartest health reporters in Washington. We’re taping this week on Thursday, Feb. 16, at 10 a.m. As always, news happens fast, and things might have changed by the time you hear this. So here we go. Today we are joined via video conference by Alice Miranda Ollstein of Politico.

Alice Miranda Ollstein: Good morning.

Rovner: Sandhya Raman of CQ Roll Call.

Sandhya Raman: Good morning.

Rovner: And Joanne Kenen of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico.

Joanne Kenen: Hi, everybody.

Rovner: Later in this episode we’ll have the winner of KHN’s health policy valentines contest. I hope everyone had a pleasant Valentine’s Day with someone that you love. But first, this week’s health news. I’m calling our lede segment this week “The Kids Are Not OK,” and we’ll get to the gun violence stuff in a minute. First is news from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s Youth Risk Behavior Survey. And let me just read from the press release, quote, “Nearly 3 in 5 — 57% — of U.S. teen girls felt persistently sad or hopeless in 2021, double that of boys representing a nearly 60% increase, and the highest level reported over the past decade.” According to the survey, teens who identify as LGBTQ+ have, quote, “ongoing and extreme distress. More than 1 in 5 of that group said they had attempted suicide in the year before the survey.” Now, clearly, 2021 was a bad year for most of us. The pandemic was still raging, but the political fights over things like vaccines and masking were raging, too. But these rates of mental health problems found by the biannual survey of high school students has gone up in every report since 2001. Why is this happening? What is wrong with our young people and what can we do to help?

Kenen: Well, whatever’s wrong with our young people is going to also be wrong with our old people. I mean, we create the world in which … I mean, I’m a mother and I’m an aunt and I’m an extended-family motherly person. There’s something about the world that we have created for our young people. Julie, we grew up in the Cold War. We grew up … we don’t remember the missile crisis and things like that. But we did grow up in an era of anxiety, existential threats. And yet, for our generation, it wasn’t as bad as it is for this generation. And in this generation, you look at kids who seem to be on top of the world, and they feel like the world is on top of them.

Rovner: Well, at least in my case, you couldn’t be bullied unless you were in person … which is not true anymore.

Kenen: But even 2000, 2001, it wasn’t. That’s not the only thing going on here. And it’s not only the pandemic. I mean, it’s lots of things.

Ollstein: What really jumped out to me in this data was the really high rates of rape and sexual violence. You know, the CDC has said that 1 in 5 teen girls have experienced sexual violence just in the past year, and more than 1 in 10 say they’ve been forced to have sex. This was grouped together with the mental health, depression, suicidal ideation data, indicating that these things are related. And so I think in order to pinpoint some factors, it really seems like … people don’t know how to relate to each other in a sexual way that’s healthy. I think a lot about the efforts to restrict education about sex and sexuality in schools and how that could potentially make this even worse.

Rovner: And remember, this is a survey of high school students. So these are younger young people, or at least early in their, you know, sexual awareness.

Kenen: Yeah, but there was assault and unwanted … there was ugly stuff in prior generations, tons of it. And it wasn’t … and in some ways it was more secretive and more shameful. I mean, I’m not saying it’s not a problem. It’s obviously a huge problem. Alice is right. But it’s not unique to this generation. It’s hard to measure because we weren’t looking for it. But it certainly wasn’t something that didn’t happen. But I think it was even more secretive in the past. So I agree with Alice, but I don’t think that’s all of it.

Rovner: Sandhya.

Ollstein: And you’re right that it’s hard to know for past generations.

Kenen: But they didn’t ask that question.

Ollstein: Since they’ve been asking, it’s gotten worse. They say it’s … sexual violence is up 20% since 2017. Rape is up 27% since 2019. So since they’ve been investigating this, it’s getting worse.

Raman: I would also add the cyberbullying element is a huge piece. You know, if we were looking at this maybe 20 years ago, that was not the same case. The amount of time that teens and young people spend online is much greater now, even within the data they looked at it — that cyberbullying was a lot higher for teens, for LGBTQ youth. And that has been a broad issue that, even this week in Congress, the Senate Judiciary Committee was looking at protecting kids online. And a huge element of that was cyberbullying. You heard from different parents who had lost a child due to excessive cyberbullying on a lot of these social media apps and due to suicide or other mental health issues. And I think that’s a huge piece of now versus, you know, several years ago.

Rovner: Yeah, I agree. Well, clearly, one factor in the declining mental well-being of high school students is the threat of being swept up in a mass shooting event. As if this week’s shooting at Michigan State University wasn’t awful enough, some of the students who had to shelter in place for hours in East Lansing were also survivors of the Oxford, Michigan, high school shooting in 2021. And there was even one student that we know of who was at Sandy Hook Elementary in 2012. Now, in college, there have been 71 mass shootings, defined as an incident in which four or more people are shot or killed, so far in 2023, according to the Gun Violence Archive, and it’s only the middle of February. And just in time, Gallup reports that 63% of Americans are dissatisfied with the nation’s gun laws. Up 7 percentage points from last year and the highest level in 23 years. Is there any way to get this any closer to the top of the issues for lawmakers to address? I mean, they got something tiny done last year, but it feels like the problem is just exploding.

Raman: No, I was going to say, even last year with the incremental stuff was really difficult to get across the board. And, even going back to the CDC data, there were survey results about how many kids are afraid to go to school right now. And that was one of the factors that was rising. And gun violence is obviously a factor in safety, especially for kids now. But I think on a federal level, getting something additional across the line, especially with this split Congress, is going to be really difficult. It might be more of a state-level thing. I think Michigan is already talking about doing something, but it might have to be more on that end than federal.

Ollstein: Yeah, absolutely. And not only with the divided Congress, but I think a lot of the champions of gun reform on the Republican side have since retired. I’m thinking of Sen. [Pat] Toomey, in particular. And so not only do you have a House-Senate divide, but you don’t have some of the voices on the right calling for this that you’re used to.

Rovner: Yeah, the sides seem to be retreating to the poles, as usual, and the public is not happy about it.

Kenen: Well, one last thing, Julie, really quickly. I mean, I think young people today are very aware of climate as an existential threat, which was not true of prior generations.

Rovner: Yes.

Kenen: And I think kids have this real profound fear. And I think that feeds into the anxiety part of it. At least, you know, they just …

Rovner: Yeah, I think that’s absolutely true. And that’s something that’s been ratcheting up over the past several years as we’ve seen this mental well-being …

Kenen: The pace of damage to the Earth is faster than the scientists had projected.

Rovner: All right. Well, now we’re going to turn to abortion, which is another place where the public is not happy with how it’s being regulated. Yet a different Gallup poll finds Americans more dissatisfied with U.S. abortion policy than any time in 23 years, with a record 69% of adults reporting dissatisfaction. That includes 46% who want less strict laws and only 14% who say they want more restrictions. Yet the political energy seems like it’s with the anti-abortion side, or am I misreading that?

Ollstein: I think there’s a lot of activity on both sides. I mean, Sandhya mentioned Michigan, and I think that’s a spot — along with Minnesota, where Democrats really won big in this past election and want to use their new state-level power to advance some abortion rights measures. But I think you’re seeing a lot more on the “anti-” side, and you’re seeing a lot more splits within the anti-abortion side over how to restrict abortion, how far to go, what kind of exemptions to include, if any. And so you’re seeing a lot more debate, whereas the left, who wants to protect abortion rights, seems a little bit more unified on what they want to do right now. And then, like guns, the federal level is pretty stalemate, roadblock. Nothing much is going to happen there.

Rovner: But also, I think it’s that, you know — and I’m as guilty of this as anybody — that the journalists would rather cover squabbles than people who are actually together. So maybe it’s getting a little more ink. Well, it continues to look like a single federal judge in Texas might well try to ban the abortion pill. mifepristone nationwide. Trump appointee Matthew Kaczmarek did not rule as expected last week in a case charging FDA with wrongly approving the drug 22 years ago. Rather, the judge gave the parties two more weeks to submit briefs, which seems to have prompted every party with the least bit of interest in this case to file amicus briefs. I have never seen anything like this at the federal district court level. It looks like a major Supreme Court case, but it’s not. Has anybody else seen anything like this? I mean, this case seems to be taking on as much importance as your average big Supreme Court case.

Ollstein: It very well could be a Supreme Court case in the future. And I think that’s reflected there, too. And I also want to note that part of the reason for the couple of weeks of delay the judge ordered was to allow the drugmaker to have time to submit arguments because the drugmaker, Danco [Laboratories], says that the different parties in the suit, even the FDA, aren’t really representing their interests and they want to argue for the right to market their product. So that’s pretty interesting. But then, yeah, you have the attorneys general, Democrats, and Republicans lining up on either side of the case. The Republican attorneys general saying, “We support banning this medication nationwide” and the Democratic attorneys general saying, “No, let’s trust the FDA and their scientific process to approve this drug.”

Kenen: I mean, I think there’s sort of a significance in how it’s described because you can say, well, Congress gave the FDA the power to approve drugs. But the anti-abortion movement does not call this a medication abortion. They call it chemical abortion. And therefore, they’re treating this not as a drug but as a lethal chemical. You know, whether the judge goes along with that thinking … we know he’s a strongly anti-abortion judge. There’s no question. And there’s a widespread anticipation that he is going to rule with the anti-abortion side. But we never know what a judge is going to do until a judge does it. And Alice has covered this much more closely than I have, so she’ll probably want to weigh in more. But the issue is, is he going to think that the court should overrule the FDA or is he going to think this is a, quote, “chemical,” not a, quote “medication,” and therefore that the FDA is irrelevant? And I mean, Alice, you can give a better restatement of what I just said since you’ve written about it.

Rovner: I want to respond to Alice’s earlier point about the drug company wanting to get involved, because the big question here, not to get into too much legal minutiae, is why did the people who are suing have standing to sue? They have not been injured by the ability to sell this drug for 22 years. No one’s making them buy it. Arguably, the only party that has standing is the drug company, because if it was cut off, they would lose money. They have an obvious injury here. So the legal niceties of this may not go together either. Alice, do you want to do a follow-up?

Ollstein: Yeah, I mean, to go to the standing issue, the people challenging the FDA approval here are conservative doctors who say that they’ve had to do follow-up treatment for patients who’ve taken the abortion pill and then need follow-up treatment, and that takes their time and attention away from treating other patients. I mean, doctors treating a patient, that’s kind of their job. So I think there’s definitely a question on harm and standing there. Just a couple of thoughts on the case. Abortion rights groups both say that this could be an absolute crisis, disaster across the country. But then they also point out that people will still be able to have medication abortions because the two-pill regimen that’s been used for 20 years, it can still work with just the second pill. So this case is about banning the first pill. The different providers who have spoken out say we’re preparing to just provide abortions via the second pill, if needed.

Rovner: And that second pill, misoprostol, is not going to be pulled off the market. It’s used for many, many things. It just happens it also can end a pregnancy.

Ollstein: Exactly. Way harder to ban. And that’s one thing. Medication abortions will still continue if the judge rules how people expect him to. You know, another thing with all the amicus briefs and the drug company intervening as people are bringing up, if we allow someone to come in 20 years after the fact and challenge FDA approval of something, doesn’t that open Pandora’s box to people challenging all kinds of things, I mean, vaccines and whatnot? And won’t that cause chaos and not make drug companies feel like they can trust the process and have confidence in bringing drugs to market in the U.S.? So that’s another piece of the puzzle as well.

Raman: I would add that there’s already a little bit of chaos because, you know, whatever ruling we have, likely later this month, is almost definitely going to be appealed and then probably appeals again. So it’s going … we could have a back-and-forth process where providers might go one way and then the other. And then, in the contingency stuff they’ve been doing, piggybacking on what Alice was saying, is that if they do this misoprostol regimen, it’s not as straightforward as the two-dose that you’re used to in that there are different amounts of dosage, you might have to do repeated dosages. It’s not as simple, even if that’s done in a lot of other parts of the world. And then some providers have said that they would also just switch to doing all surgical abortions. But that also is more timely. You’d have to do the whole thing in clinic rather than send someone home with the pill. And then that is going to take longer. You’re going to schedule fewer patients. There’s already that many different contingency plans that these clinics are going to have to do regardless of what we hear down the line and through the appeals process.

Rovner: We already know that clinics are backed up from women coming from other states. So patients are having to wait longer to get abortions. And, you know, as … it gets further along, you have to do different procedures that are more expensive. It’s already piling up in different places. Well, speaking of some other different places, we’re seeing a lot of national pro- and anti-abortion groups getting involved in a Wisconsin Supreme Court election, of all things. What is up with that?

Ollstein: Well, that could decide the fate of abortion access in that state. You know, you have the split of a Democratic governor and a Republican legislature. So things really could come down. You know, the state had a pre-Roe ban that went into effect. So things are expected to come down to the makeup of the Supreme Court. And so you’re having just tons of outside money being poured into this race for that reason and really putting a spotlight on how much power are these state supreme courts have. And it’s true in other states as well. And there are many cases pending in different states. You know, I’ve been following the Kentucky one, in particular, but there are a bunch of different cases pending before a state supreme court that could really re-legalize or maintain the ban on abortion.

Kenen: There are also election issues and, on abortion, in the state of Wisconsin, election rules, election certification issues that it’s one of the three or four states where that’s really a hot potato. And that’s another reason this race is getting so much attention. I mean, it’s the state Supreme Court race that’s getting a huge amount of national attention and national money. So there are several issues I would agree with Alice on. The No. 1 is probably abortion. But it’s not only abortion.

Raman: And it’s interesting because this is the first time that EMILY’s List has endorsed ever a state Supreme Court race. And I think another thing to consider is that, you know, this is still considered a nonpartisan race since it’s a court seat. I mean …

Rovner: In theory.

Raman: In theory, yes. Even though all of these groups are looking at the histories of how people have ruled in the past. But I think that’s another thing that makes it a little bit more interesting given it’s not strictly a Democrat or Republican endorsement, like a lot of the other things that we’ve been following.

Rovner: Yes. And I saw on the other side the Susan B Anthony List, the anti-abortion group, said … put out a press release this week saying they’re going to have six-figure spending in Wisconsin on this race. So …

Kenen: It’ll be very good for the Wisconsin economy.

Rovner: It will be very good for the Wisconsin economy. Well, anti-abortion lawmakers are busy in a bunch of states pursuing another new trend, giving tax breaks to so-called crisis pregnancy centers that, at least when abortion was legal, lured pregnant women in by pretending to be an abortion clinic and then trying to convince them not to terminate their pregnancies. Missouri has already allowed donors to these crisis pregnancy centers to write off contributions on their state taxes. Now, Kansas, Arkansas, and Oklahoma are considering similar programs, but Kansas is the only one of those states where abortion is still legal. What are CPCs going to do now that they can’t pose as abortion facilities?

Raman: I think there’s still a lot of confusion for folks. I mean, given how a lot of these laws have been changing back and forth. I mean, even as folks that follow this very closely, there’s so many different things where someone … I think we’ve looked at polling before where people don’t always know: Is abortion illegal or not legal in our state? Or at what point? It’s difficult to keep track of, with so many changes going back and forth. So I think that there could feasibly still be people who might be looking for an abortion that don’t understand or — we’ve seen that a lot of these clinics have also bought a lot of ads so that you might be searching for an abortion and you get redirected to one of these clinics. So I think there’s still overlap in folks that might be searching for one and end up at another.

Kenen: I don’t know how much online presence they have, because that could be across state lines. You know, if someone’s on or near a border, there’s all sorts of … people might think that surgical abortions are legal, but medication is not, or that they can or someone could help them order pills. You can never underestimate how confused Americans are about any number of things. So … but they also might …

Rovner: This is confusing, to be fair.

Kenen: Yes. But they also might concentrate their efforts less on the no-abortion states and move more to the abortion states. Or they may advertise in ways that captures or attempts to capture people who are looking to go out of state or to get a cross-state-line prescription, whatever. They can promote themselves in different ways. Or they may also just decide to not do as much in Texas and do a lot more in upstate New York. I mean, I don’t know how they’re going to totally respond to the legal landscape either.

Ollstein: Yeah. And they’ve also become sort of a legal force of their own. I know they’re involved in challenging some of California’s pro-abortion rights policies. The CDC is specifically. So they also have … are trying to play a role on that front, in addition to direct patients’ interface or however we want to phrase it.

Rovner: All right. Well, while we’re talking about patients’ privacy, I want to talk about data. First, a kind of terrifying story from The Washington Post this week details how data brokers have been selling the names and addresses of people with depression, anxiety, and other mental health disorders so they can be advertised to. A lot of this has come from people using mental health apps or websites that are not covered by the HIPAA privacy rules because they are not technically covered health entities. A separate story this week notes how Virginia Gov. Glenn Youngkin helped defeat a bill in the Virginia legislature to provide legal protections to women’s menstrual data contained in period tracking apps. A Virginia official who was opposing the bill said it would put limits on search warrants, which could lead to other problems down the road. One researcher described the privacy practices of the vast majority of mental health apps as, quote, “exceptionally creepy.” How concerned should we be about all of this?

Kenen: I found that really horrifying. And a family friend who had been looking for a therapist and I said, well, maybe — and they were having trouble finding somebody in network and it’s very expensive — and I said, “Well, maybe you should look into some of the online ones that do take insurance.” And after reading that, I told that person, “I’m not so sure that it’s a good idea.” And we do have a shortage of mental health providers in this country. We have an even greater shortage of mental health providers that take insurance. There’s been a lot of talk about how telemedicine for mental health is at least part of the answer. But this should really raise … because they’re not just selling de-identified data. Some of them in that article were selling people’s names, address, diagnosis, and medical history. If it was truly, truly, truly de-identified, it’s different then. And that can be used for research. But a lot of what’s so-called de-identified isn’t de-identified. And this doesn’t even pretend to be. This is, like, search, and you can find out who the person is, an awful lot of intimate detail about their lives. So unless there’s some real safeguards, would you want any of your medical data with your name on it being sold? No. It is. It is being. But …

Rovner: When the HIPAA rules first went into effect, which was around the year 2000, actually  it took a few years — researchers came to Capitol Hill screaming because they were afraid they weren’t going to be able to get any of this de-identified data and they weren’t going to be able to continue to do research. Now, we seem to have gone far in the other direction. And I know that there are efforts on Capitol Hill to do things to update the women’s reproductive information, keeping that private. Anybody think that they might get into an expansion of HIPAA? I mean, that’s really all it would take would be to create more covered entities.

Raman: Yeah, it isn’t as much about the expansion of HIPAA, but there have definitely been pretty concerted efforts to get … the U.S. doesn’t have a comprehensive data privacy law. You know, in contrast to, like, the EU or something. And that has been a big effort for the lawmakers that are focused on tech policy for a while. Even the hearing earlier this week with Senate Judiciary, they brought up several bills. And the issue has been that all of these issues are bipartisan, folks are on board. It’s just not enough people are on board, and little things that have been getting in the way there. And so that has been an issue. And I think even during that hearing, we had one researcher bring up different sites — like NEDA, which is mentioned in some of these lawsuits by some of the hospitals — have been collecting all of this data. But then they, as researchers, are not able to get access to that data, and that would be extremely beneficial for them to be able to say this is what the impact of some of these things are on kids. So it’s a Catch-22 where it’s, like, OK a) we’re not having the research be able to get the data, b) we’re having it sold in a malicious way and c) we haven’t been able to find a solution to mitigate all of this.

Kenen: Yeah, I don’t know about the prospects for a gigantic tech bill because it has many components and they’re controversial and hard to get 60 votes for. But I think there’s a difference between selling stuff about who bought shoes versus someone who is on an anti-psychotic or an antidepressant or whatever, or getting marital counseling, whatever. I mean, these are not the same issue as the whole constellation of tech issues. I can see this being something bipartisan. HIPAA has been updated a little bit, but the fundamental HIPAA law dates back to what, ’96, Julie? … I think that’s when it was.

Rovner: Yeah, although …

Kenen: It has been updated, but it hasn’t been overhauled to really fit the cyber universe we live in.

Rovner: But also Congress never really did HIPAA. People don’t remember this: The 1996 law basically had a provision that said Congress needs to fundamentally address privacy if we’re going to move more towards digital health records, which at the time was starting to happen. And if they don’t, then the secretary of Health and Human Services is authorized to put out regs. And guess what? Congress didn’t do it. So the HIPAA regs that we have now were put out at the end of the Clinton administration. Congress was never able to come together on this. So now things have obviously gotten worse.

Kenen: Yes. And since the Supreme Court now doesn’t like agencies regulating that, that seems to create an entire new existential question. But do I think that medical privacy is something that you could find some kind of bipartisan lanes on? I don’t think a lot of bipartisan things are going to happen in the next two years. This does seem to be one of the few areas that is not a red-blue ideological issue. And I can see Republicans and Democrats being horrified by some of this and maybe not totally sealing it up, but putting … better guardrails on what can be brokered.

Raman: One of the issues has been, I think even in the past, was that California is the one state that has implemented a few layers of very intense data privacy laws. And so, you know, when you have people in leadership that are in from California and it’s hard to get some of those compromises across when it might be more watered down than something California has and take precedent being federal. So it’s one of the many layers of why it’s been difficult over the past year to get any of this stuff done.

Rovner: Well, we should note that the Biden administration is actually working on some enforcement. Earlier this month, the Federal Trade Commission fined the prescription drug discounter GoodRx $1.5 million for illegally sharing customer’s personal health information. It was the very first enforcement action under a 2009 law that applies to health record vendors and others not covered by HIPAA. So at least there’s one avenue where this could be pursued. I imagine we’ll be seeing more of that if not, you know, whether or not they can reach all of these things seems unlikely.

Kenen: Yeah, doing it piecemeal does not seem to be the approach, and I’m not even sure how much $1.5 million is for GoodRx. I don’t think that’s a lot of money for any major pharmaceutical entity.

Rovner: No. And there are a lot of people who use it. All right. Well, finally this week, while we’re talking about drugs, I’ve been trying to get to this for a while. California has — speaking of California, things that other states haven’t done — California has decided to try to limit the cost of insulin for people with diabetes by manufacturing it itself. Could this set a precedent to really disrupt the insulin market, or is California just so big and wealthy that it’s basically the only state that could do something like this — or only state they would do something like this?

Ollstein: So I will note that Gov. [Gretchen] Whitmer in Michigan has also proposed state manufacturing of insulin. So California might not be the only one. I think the idea is that insulin is pretty cheap to manufacture. It’s become the poster child for out-of-control drug prices for that reason — the disparity between what it costs for patients and what it costs to make is so vast. And so I think you are likely to have a few states. But I think it will take a state doing it successfully to get a significant number of others to follow.

Rovner: I think there might be a thought that because California is so big, it could disrupt the market elsewhere — I mean, in the country. That strikes me as a reach. But it’s, you know, Congress, again — talking about things that Congress can’t do — they managed to limit insulin prices for people on Medicare, but not even for everybody else.

Kenen: There was also a good piece in The Atlantic, maybe two or three months ago, that some of these new diabetic drugs, which are injectables and very expensive, mean you don’t need insulin. So … but by addressing making insulin really cheap, which is a good … I mean so people who are on insulin and need insulin … but there are some people who actually could take one of these other drugs and then they wouldn’t be able to afford these other drugs, which might be better for them. And then they’ll end up on cheap insulin. So it’s always more complicated than it sounds. And I also think there’s different kinds of insulin. Someone else on the panel might, you know, that I’m not sure that …

Rovner: There are lots of different formulations.

Kenen: There are two major kinds of diabetes, obviously, Type 1 and Type 2. And then there’s different patients with different degrees of … you know, how far their other health conditions is advanced, etc., etc. So cheap insulin is not even a solution for diabetes. It’s one part of a solution for one of many chronic diseases in America.

Rovner: Well, we will never not have enough things to talk about. That is the news for this week. Now it is time for our extra-credit segment. That’s when we each recommend a story we read this week we think you should read, too. As always, don’t worry if you miss it. We will post the links on the podcast page at khn.org and in our show notes on your phone or other mobile device. Joanne, why don’t you kick us off this week?

Kenen: Yes. This was a collaboration between NPR, Nashville Public Radio, and Kaiser Health News, aired on NPR by Blake Farmer. “In Tennessee, a Medicaid Mix-Up Could Land You on a ‘Most Wanted’ List.” And basically, Tennessee is cracking down on Medicaid fraud. Most Medicaid fraud is actually from doctors and other health care providers — there have been a bunch of home health scandals and so forth. The amount of fraud and the amount of money involved in patient fraud is small, and yet they’re spending a huge amount of money to try to capture a small amount of fraud. And there are huge mistakes. Like the person in this article was just … she was entitled to Medicaid. She did nothing wrong. But they publicly … like, they don’t even wait for you to be convicted. They’re publishing …  they’re making public the charge. This woman turned out to be … it had to do with an old address on … an expired driver’s license that got the system confused. She was doing nothing wrong, and yet she was completely blacklisted, employment and everything else because she was accused of being a felon in publicly available databases. So, a) are they looking in the right place for fraud? And b) are they protecting people’s rights? Clearly the latter they are not because they were publishing … people were accused but not convicted, and then they weren’t removing it in a timely, effective way. So this woman is, like, unemployable. She can’t rent an apartment, and she did nothing wrong. So there’s a whole series of abuses in this story. Not that Medicaid fraud is a good thing. Medicaid fraud is a bad thing, but this is not the way to go after it.

Rovner: This was one in a series of horrifying stories this week. Alice, you have another horrifying story.

Ollstein: Yes. Although this is under the banner of more evidence to bolster the upsetting things that we sort of already knew. This is a really good piece from The New York Times, laying out a lot of data to show that there is these differences in maternal mortality between Black and white women that can’t be attributed to income, showing that even wealthier Black women still face much worse outcomes. And so they say, you know, even when you account for income, even when you account for education and a lot of other factors, there are still these impacts of structural racism in the health system that continue to put Black mothers more in danger. And so this is coming at a time when there’s a lot of focus on this. But there has been sort of a lot of focus on the income, socioeconomic side and people recommending that states expand postpartum coverage of Medicaid. And that certainly is recommended, and experts think that would help. But this shows that it won’t completely solve the problem and there are other factors to address.

Kenen: And it’s not just in maternal mortality. I mean, the racial disparities in health care are not just income-related.

Rovner: And finally, Sandhya, you have a story from one of our fellow podcast panelists.

Raman: Yeah, the story I picked is “Zantac’s Maker Kept Quiet About Cancer Risks for 40 Years,” and that’s at Bloomberg News from Anna Edney, Susan Berfield, and Jef Feeley. And this was a really great story about Zantac, the heartburn and reflux drug that was once one of the world’s best-selling prescription medications. And then in 2020, it was pulled off the U.S. market over cancer risks. And the article goes through how since its beginnings, Glaxo’s own scientists, the drugmaker, had warned that it could be dangerous, but proving some of this has been a little difficult. … But the story goes through some of the documents that show that Glaxo chose not to look into this, even though the leading health agencies — EPA, FDA, WHO — all say NDMA is a carcinogen.

Rovner: Yeah, it’s quite the investigation. Well worth reading. Well, my story is a little less horrifying than everybody else’s. It’s from my former NPR Science Desk colleague Michaeleen Doucleff and it’s called “Is the Deadly Fungi Pandemic in ‘The Last of Us’ Actually Possible?” And I will cut to the chase. The answer is most almost certainly no. But that’s not to say we shouldn’t be worried about fungi and fungal diseases, particularly as the Earth continues to warm, which is what touches off the pandemic in the video game/HBO miniseries that’s airing now. There are new fungal diseases that can be pretty nasty, too, but zombies, almost certainly not. Well, maybe, certainly not. Anyway, listen to or read Michaeleen’s story. Before we go, this week was Valentine’s Day and, as promised, we have the winner of KHN’s best health policy valentine, as chosen by our editors and social media staff. This year’s winner is Jennifer Goldberg, and it goes as follows: “Roses are red, candy is sweet. Adding #Dental to #Medicare makes it more complete!” Congrats to Jennifer and thanks everyone for your creative health policy valentines.

OK, that’s our show for this week. As always, if you enjoy the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left us a review — that helps other people find us, too. Special thanks, as always, to our ever-patient producer, Francis Ying. As always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth — all one word — @kff.org. Or you can tweet me. I’m @jrovner. Joanne?

Kenen: @JoanneKenen

Rovner: Sandhya?

Raman: @SandhyaWrites

Rovner: Alice.

Ollstein: @AliceOllstein

Rovner: We will be back in your feed next week. Until then, be healthy.

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Julie Rovner is chief Washington correspondent and host of KHN’s weekly health policy news podcast, “What the Health?” A noted expert on health policy issues, Julie is the author of the critically praised reference book “Health Care Politics and Policy A to Z,” now in its third edition.

Health care was a recurring theme throughout President Joe Biden’s 2023 State of the Union address on Capitol Hill this week. He took a victory lap on recent accomplishments like capping prescription drug costs for seniors on Medicare. He urged Congress to do more, including making permanent the boosted insurance premium subsidies added to the Affordable Care Act during the pandemic. And he sparred with Republicans in the audience — who jeered and called him a liar — over GOP proposals that would cut Medicare and Social Security.

Meanwhile, abortion rights advocates and opponents are anxiously awaiting a federal court decision out of Texas that could result in a nationwide ban on mifepristone, one of two drugs used in medication abortion.

This week’s panelists are Julie Rovner of KHN, Alice Miranda Ollstein of Politico, Rachel Cohrs of Stat, and Sarah Karlin-Smith of the Pink Sheet.

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Rachel Cohrs
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Sarah Karlin-Smith
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Alice Miranda Ollstein
Politico

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Read Alice's stories

Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:

• President Joe Biden’s State of the Union address emphasized recent victories against high health care costs, like Medicare coverage caps on insulin and out-of-pocket caps on prescription drug spending. Biden’s lively, informal exchange with lawmakers over potential cuts to Medicare and Social Security seemed to steal the show, though the political fight over cutting costs in those entitlement programs is rooted in a key question: What constitutes a “cut”?
• Biden’s calls for bipartisanship to extend health programs like pandemic-era subsidies for Affordable Care Act health plans are expected to clash with conservative demands to slash federal government spending. And last year’s Senate fights demonstrate that sometimes the opposition comes from within the Democratic Party.
• While some abortion advocates praised Biden for vowing to veto a federal abortion ban, others felt he did not talk enough about the looming challenges to abortion access in the courts. A decision is expected soon in a Texas court case challenging the future use of mifepristone. The Trump-appointed judge’s decision could ban the drug nationwide, meaning it would be barred even in states where abortion continues to be legal.
• The FDA is at the center of the abortion pill case, which challenges its approval of the drug decades ago and could set a precedent for legal challenges to the approval of other drugs. In other FDA news, the agency recently changed policy to allow gay men to donate blood; announced new food safety leadership in response to the baby formula crisis; and kicked back to Congress a question of how to regulate CBD, or cannabidiol, products.
• In drug pricing, the top-selling pharmaceutical, Humira, will soon reach the end of its patent, which will offer a telling look at how competition influences the price of biosimilars — and the problems that remain for lawmakers to resolve.

Also this week, Rovner interviews Kate Baicker of the University of Chicago about a new paper providing a possible middle ground in the effort to establish universal health insurance coverage in the U.S.

Plus, for “extra credit,” the panelists suggest health policy stories they read this week they think you should read, too:

Julie Rovner: The New York Times’ “Don’t Let Republican ‘Judge Shoppers’ Thwart the Will of Voters,” by Stephen I. Vladeck

Alice Miranda Ollstein: Politico’s “Mpox Is Simmering South of the Border, Threatening a Resurgence,” by Carmen Paun

Sarah Karlin-Smith: KHN’s “Decisions by CVS and Optum Panicked Thousands of Their Sickest Patients,” by Arthur Allen

Rachel Cohrs: ProPublica’s “UnitedHealthcare Tried to Deny Coverage to a Chronically Ill Patient. He Fought Back, Exposing the Insurer’s Inner Workings,” by David Armstrong, Patrick Rucker, and Maya Miller

Also mentioned in this week’s podcast:

• The Associated Press’ “20 Attorneys General Warn Walgreens, CVS Over Abortion Pills,” by Jim Salter
• NPR’s “A Trump-Appointed Texas Judge Could Force a Major Abortion Pill off the Market,” by Sarah McCammon
• Politico’s “Federal Judge Says Constitutional Right to Abortion May Still Exist, Despite Dobbs,” by Kyle Cheney and Josh Gerstein
• The Becker Friedman Institute’s “Achieving Universal Health Insurance Coverage in the United States: Addressing Market Failures or Providing a Social Floor?” by Katherine Baicker, Amitabh Chandra, and Mark Shepard

click to open the transcript

Transcript: A Health-Heavy State of the Union

KHN’s ‘What the Health?’Episode Title: A Health-Heavy State of the UnionEpisode Number: 284Published: Feb. 9, 2023

Julie Rovner: Hello and welcome back to KHN’s “What the Health?” I’m Julie Rovner, chief Washington correspondent at Kaiser Health News. And I’m joined by some of the best and smartest health reporters in Washington. We’re taping this week on Thursday, Feb. 9, at 10 a.m. As always, news happens fast, and things might have changed by the time you hear this. So here we go. We are joined today via video conference by Alice Miranda Ollstein of Politico.

Alice Miranda Ollstein: Good morning.

Rovner: Rachel Cohrs of Stat News.

Rachel Cohrs: Hi, everybody.

Rovner: And Sarah Karlin-Smith of the Pink Sheet.

Sarah Karlin-Smith: Hi, Julie.

Rovner: Later in this episode, we’ll play my interview with Kate Baicker of the University of Chicago. She’s one of the authors of a new paper outlining a new proposal for the U.S. to achieve universal health insurance coverage, something every other developing nation already has, but we have not yet been able to achieve. But first, this week’s health news. We’re going to start, of course, with the State of the Union, which was livelier than usual, with way more back and forth than I’ve ever seen at one of these, and also more health-heavy than usual. I’m going to start with entitlements, notably the president threatening Republican proposals to hold the debt ceiling hostage for cuts in Social Security and Medicare. I’m still trying to decide whether this was intended or not, but Biden nevertheless ended up getting Republicans to vow not to demand cuts in Social Security and Medicare in exchange for raising the debt ceiling later this year. Here is the tape.

President Joe Biden: So, folks, as we all apparently agree, Social Security and Medicare is off the books now, right? And they’re not going to strike … [prolonged applause] All right. We got unanimity!

Rovner: So was this very clever or very lucky or both?

Ollstein: Well, it’s a little not quite what it seems. Republicans have been swearing up and down more recently that they never intended to cut Medicare and Social Security. But when they say “We want to reform it, we want to shore it up,” they’re talking about things that could limit benefits for beneficiaries. So it’s a semantics game, in part. I also want to point out that neither Republicans nor Biden have yet said that they consider Medicaid in that same untouchable category. So that really jumped out at me in the speech as well.

Rovner: Yeah, I mean, if you don’t touch Social Security or Medicare — and the Republicans are trying to say that because this has been used as a weapon for so many years — then basically that leaves Medicaid. And as we discovered in 2017, when they were trying to repeal the Affordable Care Act, Medicaid is actually pretty popular, too, because it takes care of a lot of people’s grandparents in nursing homes. I’m wondering when somebody is going to bring that up. Obviously, over the years, many, quote-unquote, “cuts” have been made to both Social Security and Medicare, mainly to slow the growth of the programs so that we can continue to afford them. Many more, quote-unquote, “cuts” will have to be made going forward. Every time you reduce payment to a drugmaker or a hospital or any other health care provider, that’s a cut, but it helps beneficiaries. So, you know, you say “cuts,” [and] beneficiaries say “they’re going to cut our benefits.” Not necessarily. They may just be making the program more affordable, including for the beneficiaries. I mean, this is just the continuous back and forth of each side, weaponizing Medicare in particular, right?

Ollstein: Well, and until we see actual proposals on paper, like you’re indicating, it is a semantics game — what some people consider a cut might not be what other people consider a cut. And there’s going to be all sorts of rhetorical games over the next several months along these lines. So, I’m waiting till we see an actual black-and-white proposal that we can all pick at and analyze together.

Rovner: Well, as we have seen, there’s danger in putting things on paper, as Rick Scott discovered this week. For those who don’t remember, it was his rather infamous proposal — was it last summer, I think? It was before the election — suggesting that all federal programs be sunsetted every five years and then have to be reauthorized, which would include Social Security and Medicare and Medicaid. And that’s not playing well at this point, as I think was predicted at the time, including by us. So moving on, I was also impressed at how the speechwriters managed to combine the, quote, “victory lap” stuff, record Affordable Care [Act] enrollment, Medicare drug price changes, limits on insulin, and surprise bills with the agenda ahead: expanding insulin price caps to the non-Medicare population, Medicaid expansion in the states that haven’t done it, making the Affordable Care Act subsidies expansions permanent. But none of these things — popular, though they may be — are likely to happen in this Congress, are they? … These are the things that fell out of the bill that passed last year.

Cohrs: Right. A lot of those cost money, which is going to cause even more problems this Congress than it did in the last one. And I thought it was pretty informative that the chair of the Energy and Commerce Committee in the House threw cold water on the insulin price-cap idea because it did gain some Republican support in the Senate when it came up for a vote. That was complicated. We won’t go into it. But yeah, it wasn’t a straight up-and-down vote on that policy, really. So I think there was some hope that maybe Republicans could get on board with it. But I think, because it applies to private market insurers, [it was called] a socialist policy, like, they just don’t want government in private plans, even though it’s a wildly popular policy. So, yeah, I think that doesn’t seem like a good signal for that policy in particular and for Medicaid expansion and a lot of these things. Democrats couldn’t even do it when they all agreed or had power in both the House and the Senate. So it’s definitely not a good indication for a lot of these things.

Ollstein: Let’s not forget that [Sen. Joe] Manchin [D-W.Va.] was the one who put the kibosh on the federal Medicaid expansion. He thought it wasn’t fair to states like his that expanded a long time ago and have been paying in a little bit. He thought it wasn’t right that states that were holdouts get a free ride. And the other Democrats argued back that it’s not fair for the residents in those states to be left out in the cold uninsured either. So this will continue. But like Rachel said, not going anywhere soon.

Rovner: So the things that in theory could happen, and these didn’t mostly come up in the speech or didn’t come up very much. But earlier in the day, Biden officials were floating a quote-unquote, “unity agenda” that included a long list of potentially bipartisan health issues, starting with the “cancer moonshot,” mental health and opioid treatment, strengthening the mental health parity rules. Some of these things actually could happen, right?

Cohrs: Yeah, I think especially on the mental health package, I think there was some unfinished business from last Congress, from the Senate Finance Committee. I think that all of these are issues that have been talked about this Congress already. And the leaders have signaled that they might be interested in. But I think there is some daylight here, and we’re still in very much the agenda-setting, throwing ideas out there that are a very vague part of this Congress. And I think actually getting things down on paper and going through hearings and that kind of thing will signal which areas there might actually be some agreement on. But again, spending is going to be a big challenge and there’s just not going to be time to get to everything.

Rovner: I think one of my frustrations is that normally the State of the Union comes right before the president’s budget comes out, usually within a week or two. And this year, the president’s budget isn’t coming out until March 9. So we have this, you know, talk about agenda-setting. We’re going to have a lot of time for people to just yap at each other without any specifics. But speaking of things that didn’t and aren’t likely to happen, the president didn’t talk very much about abortion. And what he did say — like threatening to veto any abortion ban Congress might pass, which won’t happen either with Democrats in charge of the Senate — that disappointed abortion rights supporters. They’re not happy, right, Alice?

Ollstein: Some were not. To be fair, some praised the speech, praised the president for saying the word “abortion.” This was a big thing over much of his career, including the beginning of his presidency. He would talk around it and not actually say the word “abortion,” which the groups felt contributed to stigma around it. And so the big mainstream groups, Planned Parenthood, NARAL, put out statements praising the speech, praising him for saying he would veto a ban, although, again, like you said, that’s a hypothetical. It’s not going to happen. But some other groups were critical that, one, he didn’t talk about some of the very looming direct threats to abortion access in the courts that we’re probably going to get to later.

Rovner: In a minute.

Ollstein: Just in a minute! But they were frustrated that he didn’t lay out more specifics that his administration will actually do to respond to the current loss of access in a lot of the country. They felt that we’re in a crisis moment and he spent less of the speech on abortion than he did on resort fees. That was a sore point for some advocates who I talked to.

Rovner: There was a lot of emphasis on junk fees. And I get why: These are the things that drive people crazy, and, particularly, in times of high inflation. But yes, abortion came very late in the speech — almost after a lot of people had tuned out and stopped paying attention, which I think also made some people unhappy. Well, speaking of abortion, here we are waiting for another make-or-break court decision out of Texas. Alice, this time it’s the future of the “abortion pill,” not just in Texas, but around the nation that’s at stake. How did we get here? And could we really see the abortion pill banned nationwide?

Ollstein: We really could. People have really been sleeping on this case, including some elected officials who were slow to realize the impact it could have. And mainly what people don’t understand is a bunch of states already ban all methods of abortion, including the pill, and then some additional states besides that have restrictions just on the pill. So this will mainly hit blue states and states where abortion access still exists. And so it could really have a huge impact because those states are now serving more than just their own populations. And in a lot of places, losing access to medication abortion means losing access to all abortion because there aren’t clinical services available. And so my colleague and I did some reporting on how the Biden administration is preparing or not for this ruling. They rebuffed calls from activists to declare a public health emergency for abortion. They said they don’t think that would help. While they do plan to appeal the ruling should the FDA lose, the upheaval that could happen in the meantime can’t really be overstated. And not to mention that an appeal would go to the 5th Circuit, which is very conservative, and then to the Supreme Court, which just overturned Roe v. Wade. And so while most experts we’ve talked to don’t think the legal arguments are that sound, you just can’t really …

Rovner: And remind us, this is the lawsuit that’s challenging the 22-year-old approval of the drug in the first place.

Ollstein: Exactly. And so health care legal experts also say that besides the absolute upheaval in the abortion space that this could cause, this would just completely destroy any certainty around drug approvals for the FDA. If anybody could come back decades later and challenge the approval of a drug, how can drugmakers feel comfortable developing and submitting things for approval and making their plans around that? It’s very chaotic.

Rovner: Sarah, is the FDA worried about this case? Has it not been on their radar either?

Karlin-Smith: I mean, they’re involved in the defense.

Rovner: They’re being sued.

Karlin-Smith: Right. I think it is a concern if this is used, right? If the folks who want this drug pulled would win, does it become precedent-setting in a way that you can get other products pulled? Perhaps. Again, the sentiments would not be there for a lot of other products in the way to use it. But it is a bit concerning when you think about judges having this power to overrule the scientific decisions we’ve left to civil servants, not politicians or judges, because they have expertise in science and medicine and clinical trial design and all these things we just would not expect judges to be able to rule on.

Rovner: Well, speaking of more politics, this week — actually, last week — a group of 20 state attorneys general from states with abortion restrictions wrote to CVS and Walgreens, which had already announced that they would apply to become providers of the abortion pill, warning them not to rely on the Justice Department’s interpretation of a 19th-century law that banned the use of the U.S. mail to send abortifacients. The letter doesn’t outright threaten the companies. It merely says that, quote, “We offer you these thoughts on the current legal landscape.” Has anybody sued over this yet? And what do we expect to happen here? I mean, are CVS and Walgreens going to back off their plans to become providers?

Ollstein: Well, the anti-abortion elected officials and advocacy groups are hoping that’s the case. But I think this could play out in so many ways. I mean, one, we have this national ruling that could come down, but we also have a few state rulings that could flip things the other way and force states that have put restrictions on the abortion pill to lift those restrictions and allow it. So now we have cases pending in North Carolina and West Virginia. One of them is by the manufacturer of the abortion pill, saying that states don’t have the right to put the FDA’s hat on their own heads and make those decisions. And the other is by an abortion provider, a doctor who says that these state restrictions hurt her ability to practice and hurt her patients. And so it’s just wild that we can swing anywhere from a national ban to forcing states with bans to lift those bans. I mean, it’s just all up in the air right now. I wanted to quickly point out two other things. A lot of activist groups say they are not counting on the Biden administration to adequately respond to this crisis. And so they’re doing a couple things. One, they’re encouraging people to do something known as “advance provision,” which is order abortion pills before they’re pregnant, before you need them, and just have them on hand just in case. And so they’re advising people do that in advance of the ruling. Interestingly, the FDA does not support that practice, but activist groups are encouraging it anyways. And then the other thing is the abortion pill regimen is actually two pills. And the big FDA lawsuit only goes after the first one. And so people are saying, you know, you can terminate a pregnancy just by taking a few of the second pill, even though that has a higher rate of not working and needing a follow-up procedure. And so …

Rovner: Although it’s still like, 95%, right?

Ollstein: It’s still very effective, but not quite as effective as using the two pills together.

Rovner: And I think it used to be when people would go to Mexico, that’s what they would get. They would get misoprostol, not mifepristone, which is what we think of as “the abortion pill” — and also methotrexate, which we talked about in the context of people with diseases for which methotrexate is indicated not being able to get it because it can cause abortions. But that’s another option there, right? And … it would be hard for FDA to pull those drugs because those drugs do have a lot of uses for other diseases.

Karlin-Smith: Or FDA could, I guess, be forced to take off the formal indication for use for abortion, but the drug would be out there and then could be subject to off-label prescribing, which then could potentially, I guess, impact insurance coverage if you’re using it for abortion. Pivot to if you had to go back to this one-drug regimen while, yes, it would still exist and be possible, I think a lot of providers are worried about the added burden that would create on folks that help people obtain abortion. And this system is just not set up to have enough workers to deal with that more complicated regimen. And it seems like it could end up leading to more need for surgical abortions, depending on how well it works and so forth. So I think logistically it creates a lot more challenges.

Rovner: Yeah, it’s a mess. Well, meanwhile, last issue here, we have a curious story out of a lawsuit in federal district court here in Washington, D.C., in which a judge proffered the notion that while the Supreme Court may have found no right to abortion in the 14th Amendment, that doesn’t mean there isn’t a federal right under the 13th Amendment. That’s the one barring slavery, specifically the restriction on the pregnant person’s personal liberty. As the judge correctly pointed out, the majority in last year’s Dobbs [v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization] ruling may well believe there’s no right to abortion anywhere in the Constitution. But that’s not the question that they litigated. Is this potentially an avenue that abortion rights advocates are going to explore?

Ollstein: I am not hearing a lot of hope being placed on this. If it goes anywhere, it would go back to the same Supreme Court that just ruled last year. And so abortion rights advocates are not optimistic about this strategy, but I think it’s a good indication of really both sides right now just trying to get as creative as possible and explore every legal avenue in the U.S. Constitution, in state constitutions, things where it never says the word abortion, but you could interpret it a certain way. I think that’s what we’re seeing right now. And so it’s really interesting to see where it goes.

Rovner: We are literally at the point where everybody is throwing whatever they can against the wall and seeing what sticks. All right. Well, let us turn to the federal research establishment. Late last month, a panel of advisers recommended a set of policies to strengthen oversight of so-called gain-of-function research that could inadvertently cause new pandemics. This was also one of the subjects of the first House hearing that called leading federal public health officials up on the carpet. What do we learn from the hearing? And has the federal government actually been funding gain-of-function research, or do we even know for sure?

Cohrs: So there has been a moratorium on this sort of research. And the interim director of the NIH [National Institutes of Health] quibbled over the term “gain-of-function research.” And he said we’re talking about a very select part of all of the research that could technically fall under that umbrella term. But he did say that there is a moratorium on funding that right now; there’s not current funding because they are reviewing their practices. And an advisory board did pass proposals and he laid out the process forward for that. So once those are finalized, he’ll write a memo to [Department of Health and Human Services] HHS Secretary Xavier Becerra, then it will get to the White House. So there is this bureaucratic progression that these new guidelines are going to go under, and it’s been pretty transparent and public so far. But we’ll see how things ultimately turn out. But I think they are very sensitive to this politically and they are trying to create guidelines that offer some lessons learned from some of the criticism they’ve gotten recently.

Rovner: And I think, I mean, this has become one of the major lines of argument about Republicans trying to figure out where covid came from. Perhaps it came from U.S.-funded gain-of-function research in China, which we don’t know, I don’t think. But there’s been a lot of “Yes, you did”-“No, you didn’t” going on. I mean, Sarah, does this go back to the, you know, politicians playing scientists?

Karlin-Smith: A little bit. And I think at the hearing, a lot of the Republicans who are pressuring NIH in particular on this are not super interested in listening to the subtleties and nuance of the argument. They just really want to make the point and bring up in people’s minds the possibility of, you know, covid being a lab leak, which I think … which hasn’t 100% been ruled out, but it’s kind of on the 98%, probably 99% ruled out by a lot of scientists. And so it was very hard for NIH and those lawmakers to have a reasonable discussion about the nuances and where this research might possibly benefit us in future pandemic prep. What type of precautions do need to be put in place? And I think NIH was trying to strive to communicate that actually a lot of what was recommended in this oversight report is things they’ve been working on and have put in place. But the hearing was designed by Republicans more to land those political punches and sound bites and not really delve into “Are there policy improvements that could be made here?”

Rovner: Well, speaking of civil servants trying to do their science policy jobs, the FDA’s been busy the last couple of weeks, including lifting a ban on men who have sex with other men donating blood. That’s a ban that’s been in effect in one way or another since the 1980s, when AIDS was first discovered. And in the wake of baby formula shortages, there’s now going to be a new deputy commissioner for food. And finally, the agency is asking Congress for new authority to regulate CBD [cannabidiol] products, particularly as more states legalize marijuana in all forms for recreational use. Sarah, this is an awful lot of stuff at once. Big policy changes where they try to hide some of them, or did they just all show up at once because that’s when they got finished?

Karlin-Smith: The food changes were sort of driven by events not quite within their control, and the blood policy, the CBD stuff were things in the works for some number of years now. So FDA is busy, and these are different divisions operating under it. I think the CBD stuff is drawing a lot of frustration because FDA had been working on considering how to regulate this aspect of hemp for a while now. And instead of coming up with a policy and taking action, they’ve rewound the circle; we’re back to square one and putting it on Congress’ issues. So that’s like one area where there’s a lot of frustration versus, I think, people are generally happier that the blood donation process was finally gone through and changed.

Rovner: Yes, the wheels of the federal regulatory process move slowly, as we know. All right. Finally this week, drug prices. Humira — which is a biological that treats rheumatoid arthritis and many other serious ailments, and for which you have undoubtedly seen TV commercials if you have ever turned on your television, because it’s the top-selling pharmaceutical in the world — is reaching the end of its patent life. That will soon provide the first real test of where the Affordable Care Act’s pathway to allow biosimilar competitors — effectively biologics version of generic drugs — whether that will actually bring down prices. Because there’s a chance here that there’s going to be a bunch of competitors to Humira and the price isn’t going to come down, right?

Karlin-Smith: Yeah, I mean, that’s a major concern for a number of reasons that get us back to the broader U.S. drug pricing debate and — including the role of pharmacy benefit managers in figuring out how people get coverage of their drugs. So Humira is one of the first biologics to lose patent protection, where patients actually fill the prescriptions themselves and give themselves the medicine, which is a very different payment system than if you’re getting a biologic medicine at a doctor’s office or a hospital. And so the way that most of the insurers are covering the drug for this year, they’re actually going to charge patients the same out-of-pocket cost in most instances, as if you’ve got the brand drug or the biosimilar. And because, unlike traditional generic medicines, a lot of these, at least initially, they’re not what is called auto-substitutable. So if your doctor writes you Humira, the pharmacist doesn’t automatically give you that generic. So you’d actually have to request a new prescription from your doctor, and they’d have to write it. And if you’re not going to pay less, why are you motivated to do that?

Rovner: When you’re not even positive how much whether the drug works the same way, whether the biosimilar works the same way.

Karlin-Smith: Right. And they think people are a little bit more hesitant. They don’t understand how biosimilars work compared to generic drugs, where it took — again, when the generic drug industry first started, it took people a while to get comfortable. So there are those issues. So, basically, what has happened is AbbVie has given insurance plans and payers’ discounts on their brand drug to keep it in a good place on their formularies. So there will be savings to the broader health system, for sure. The problem is if that doesn’t get passed on to the patients, and AbbVie can continue their market monopoly, my worry is, down the line, what happens to this biosimilar industry overall? Humira is not the only top-selling, big-selling biologic medicine where we want to bring down the cost. So if these biosimilar competitors don’t eventually gain market share and make money off of doing this, why are they going to go back and develop a biosimilar and try and lower the cost of the next big drug? And that’s what people are watching. I think there’s cautious optimism that, as more biosimilars for Humira launch, there will be some pressure for insurance companies to cut deals and lower prices and not just rely on making money off high rebates. But we don’t really know how it’s going to play out. And AbbVie was pretty creative over the years. In some ways that helped patients and others questionable — how much of … like, you know, there’s high concentration of the drug, low concentration. There is citrate-free, non-citrate-free. And that means that not all the competitors are going to be exactly the same in a way that creates as much competition as it seems at first. So yeah, it’s going to be messy.

Rovner: This is the famous evergreening that we saw with drugs. I mean, where they would change something small and get a whole new patent life.

Karlin-Smith: Right. So usually with generic research, you need three direct competitors to help bring the price down a lot. But in the case of Humira, while there’s going to be, probably at least six competitors this summer, maybe more, they’re not all direct competitors for the same version of Humira. So it sort of bifurcates the space a bit more and makes it harder to, you know, figure out the economics of all of that.

Rovner: Well, if you thought that drug pricing was confusing, now we’re adding a whole new level to it. So, I’m sure we will be talking about this more as we go forward. OK. That’s the news for this week. Now, we will play my interview with Kate Baicker of the University of Chicago. Then we will come back and do our extra credits.

I am excited to welcome to the podcast Katherine Baicker, currently the dean of the University of Chicago Harris School of Public Policy and soon to be provost of the university. Congratulations.

Katherine Baicker: Thank you so much.

Rovner: So, Kate is a health economist who is well known to health policy students for a lot of things, but most notably as the co-lead author of the Oregon Medicaid health experiment, which was able to follow a randomized population of people who got Medicaid coverage and a population that didn’t to help determine the actual impact of having Medicaid health insurance. Today, she’s here as lead author of a paper with a new way to possibly provide health coverage to all Americans. Kate, thank you so much for joining us.

Baicker: It’s a pleasure.

Rovner: So your new paper is called “Achieving Universal Health Insurance Coverage in the United States: Addressing Market Failures or Providing a Social Safety Net.” And in that single sentence, you’ve pretty much summed up the entire health insurance debate for, like, the last half-century. For those who don’t know, why is it that the U.S. doesn’t have universal insurance when literally all of our economic competitors do?

Baicker: Well, like so many things about our health care system, it goes back to the history of how it evolved, as well as some things that are different about the U.S. from other countries. If you look at how big the U.S. is geographically, how diverse our country is, how heterogeneous the health needs are. A lot of the solutions you see in other countries might not work so well in the U.S.

Rovner: So … and we’ve basically just not ever gotten over the hump here.

Baicker: Well, I also think we haven’t been asking the right questions necessarily. There is a real debate about whether health care is a “right” or not. And, of course, your listeners can’t see my “air quotes,” but I put that in air quotes because I think that’s the wrong question. Health care is not just one thing. Health care is a continuum of things. And if we just boil it down to should people have access to care or not, that doesn’t let us engage with the hard question of how much care we want to provide to everyone and how we’re going to pay for it.

Rovner: So I know a lot of people assume that the Affordable Care Act would — I’ll use my air quotes — “fix” the U.S. health insurance problem. And it has gone a long way to cover a lot of previously uninsured people. But who are the rest of the uninsured and why don’t they have coverage? It’s not necessarily who you think, right?

Baicker: That’s right. And, you know, the ACA, or Obamacare, actually made a lot of headway in covering big swaths of the uninsured population. There was a lot of discussion about health insurance exchanges, but actually more people were covered by Medicaid expansions than by health insurance exchanges. But both of those, as well as letting young people up to age 26 get on their parents’ policies. All of this chipped away at the ranks of the uninsured, but it left, for example, undocumented immigrants uninsured and also the vast majority of the uninsured people in the U.S. are already eligible for either a public program or heavily subsidized private insurance. And we have a problem of takeup and availability, not just affordability.

Rovner: So let’s get to your proposal. It’s not really that different from things that either we’ve tried in some parts of our health insurance ecosystem or what other countries do. What would it actually look like if we were to do it?

Baicker: Well, if you go back to what I think is the right question of how much health care do we want to make sure that everyone has access to and how are we going to get them enrolled in those programs? I think one key feature is having that coverage be as low-hassle as possible, automatic if possible, because we know that nonfinancial barriers to insurance are responsible for a lot of the uninsured population we still see today.

Rovner: We’ve seen that with pension plans, right? That automatically enrolling people get more people to actually put money away?

Baicker: That’s right. That’s one of the takeaways from behavioral economics is that defaults matter. Meaning what the baseline is and letting you opt in and out makes a big difference because people tend to stick with where they are. There’s a lot of inertia in saving for retirement, in enrolling in health insurance, in lots of different things. And being sophisticated in how we design the mechanics of those programs is important, as well as making sure that they’re financially affordable to people. So one step is making sure that whatever is available to people is as easy as possible for them to take advantage of. But the other is having a much harder discussion about what we want that basic package to be. And when you say “I want everybody to have all of the care that might possibly be available, no matter what price and no matter how much it impacts their health,” that’s more than 100% of GDP. We just can’t do that and still have any money for anything like food and housing and education and roads and all of the things that we also care about. So if we had that tough discussion as a nation, as a body politic, to say, here is the care that we think is really high-value that we think is a right for everyone and that we want to make sure is available to everyone, then people could be automatically enrolled in that default package and have the option to get more care that is more expensive and maybe a little less effective, but still worth it to them that they purchase on their own. And that opens up a whole host of other questions and ethical dilemmas that I’m sure you’re going to want to ask about.

Rovner: But it also — as a lot of people are concerned, that something like “Medicare for All” would eliminate the incentive to innovate new kinds of care. I mean, obviously, there’s this race to figure out, you know, a drug to treat Alzheimer’s and that if the federal government were to basically set prices for everything, that there would be no more innovation incentive. You actually address that here, right?

Baicker: Yes. And I’m so glad you raised that concern, because there are many challenges to having a monolithic one-size-fits-all Medicare for All type plan. One of them is, you know, affordability for the system and accessibility. But another is the dulled incentive for innovation and the dulled drive towards having new medicines and new treatments available. Medicare is very slow to innovate. It took 40-plus years for Medicare to include prescription drugs at all. And that was because when Medicare was formed in the Sixties, prescription medicine wasn’t a very important part of health care. It wasn’t a very expensive part of health care, there just weren’t that many drugs to treat people. Well, now those medicines are crucial to health and well-being. And Medicare finally added a prescription drug benefit in 2005. But that was a long lag, and that’s just one example. So I think having some fundamental access to care that we know is of high value for everyone could be coupled with having the option to purchase more generous insurance that covers more things. And that private insurance layered on top would really provide the financial incentives for continued innovation. It acknowledges the reality that in a world of scarce resources, higher-income people are going to have more health care than lower-income people. And that is an ugly reality and one that we ought to grapple with ethically, and as a matter of public policy priorities. I would argue we’re already rationing care. It is not possible for public programs to pay for all care for all people, no matter what the price, no matter what the health benefit, and being intentional about defining what it is we’re going to cover with public dollars and then letting people buy more care with private dollars is a way perhaps to make a financially sustainable system that also promotes innovation.

Rovner: And this isn’t really new. I mean, lots of other countries do this. I was in Switzerland a decade ago, and I remember that they … their extra-benefit package includes things like single rooms in hospitals and homeopathic medicine and things that I’m not sure we would end up putting into our top-up plans, but it’s something that’s important to them.

Baicker: Yes. And when people point to our European counterparts and say, look, they all have single-payer. In fact, a lot of them have a hybrid system like the one that we’re describing. And it’s important to differentiate: We’re talking about a basic plan that’s available for everyone. That doesn’t mean that it only covers cheap things. It should only cover high-value things. But some cheap things are incredibly ineffective and low-value, and some expensive things are really important for health and very high-value. So it’s about the value of the dollar spent in terms of producing health, not whether it’s expensive or cheap. And so when you think about having a top-up plan, it shouldn’t be about billing cost sharing that, you know, lower-income people are exposed to in the basic plan. It should be about adding services that are of less health importance but still valuable to the people purchasing them.

Rovner: Obviously, the biggest issue here is going to be who’s going to make that determination? I’m old enough to remember fights over the ACA, death panels, and the independent Medicare advisory board that never happened. In fact, there were a lot of these, you know, we’re going to appoint experts. And it never happened because none of the experts ever wanted to be on these panels. How do you overcome that hurdle of actually grappling with the decision of what should be covered?

Baicker: Yes, the devil is always in the details for these things, and you put your finger on a really important one where we haven’t provided a robust answer, and our analysis is meant to highlight the importance of making these hard decisions and the value of this framework. But we don’t have a magic bullet for this. I would argue that having Congress make this decision every year is a recipe for lobbying and decision-making that doesn’t actually line up with value. There’s an opportunity perhaps to have a panel of experts who, as you note, is just a hop, skip and a jump from being called a “death panel.” But I think we can rely on some clinical guidelines as guardrails on this. And we do have some examples of experimentation in this direction in the U.S. In fact, more than experimentation — if you look at Medicare Advantage, this used to be a small part of the Medicare program. These are private plans for Medicare beneficiaries that are now, I think, pretty soon going to be the majority of plans that people have. And it’s a mechanism for people to choose among plans that have some things that have to be covered, but can then add additional benefits for enrollees, and it can be a little more tailored to what people value in their plans. So I don’t think that’s the answer either. But it’s a proof of concept that we can do something like this in the U.S.

Rovner: So in some ways this would bridge the gap between Republican marketplace ideas and Democratic Medicare for All ideas. But it feels like, since the fight over the Affordable Care Act, Republicans have moved more to the right on health care and Democrats have moved more to the left on health care. You are no stranger to partisan politics nor the ways of Washington, D.C. How could everybody be brought back to what I daresay looks like a political compromise?

Baicker: Well, I’m an economist, as you noted, and that’s notoriously bad at understanding actual human beings. I don’t have any idea for the path forward through the political thicket that we’re in. In some ways, it is a little disheartening to see how difficult it is to do some basic commonsense things. In any complicated system like the U.S. health care system, there are always small technical fixes that need to be made that are just commonsense, that ought not to be political. And it’s hard to do those.

Rovner: We’re lacking in common sense right now in Washington.

Baicker: Yeah. So I can’t say that I’m hugely optimistic about a big change happening right away. On the other hand, I think covid really highlighted to people across the political spectrum how important it is to have continuity of coverage, how disparate our current system is in terms of access to care, how problematic it is to have your main avenue of health insurance be through your employer when a pandemic is coupled with a recession. So I think the challenges and the vast inequities of our health care system were laid bare during covid. So it is perhaps salient enough that people might be willing to consider alternative structures. But I can’t say I’m holding my breath.

Rovner: Well, Kate Baicker, thank you very much for, if anything, a great thought experiment. It’s really wonderful to look your way through … it’s like, oh, we could get there, maybe in another half a century.

Baicker: I hope sooner than that.

Rovner: I do, too. Thank you so much.

Baicker: My pleasure.

Rovner: OK, we’re back. And it’s time for our extra-credit segment. That’s when we each recommend a story we read this week we think you should read, too. As always, don’t worry if you miss it; we will post the links on the podcast page at khn.org and in our show notes on your phone or other mobile device. Rachel, why don’t you go first this week?

Cohrs: My extra credit is headlined “UnitedHealthcare Tried to Deny Coverage to a Chronically Ill Patient. He Fought Back, Exposing the Insurer’s Inner Workings,” in ProPublica by David Armstrong, Patrick Rucker, and Maya Miller. And I thought this story was just such a good illustration of the jargon that we use in D.C., of, like, utilization management and prior authorization. And sometimes these terms just feel so impersonal. But I feel like this story did such a good job walking through one patient’s struggle to find something that worked and then just the arbitrary choices that insurers were making, looking at their bottom line to try to prevent him from getting a very expensive treatment that actually did increase his quality of life significantly. So I would definitely recommend, as we’re thinking about insurers’ role in this whole health care cost debate as well.

Rovner: Yeah, it does bring home how the patient is always in the middle of this. Alice.

Ollstein: I chose a piece by my colleague Carmen Paun called “Mpox Is Simmering South of the Border, Threatening a Resurgence,” and it’s about how the U.S. was extremely successful in vaccinating high-risk people against mpox, which for folks who still remember the artist formerly known as monkeypox, the name was changed to reduce stigma and be more accurate. The U.S. vaccination campaign and messaging campaign to the most high-risk populations was really successful and did the trick. But as we learned from covid and every other infectious disease, if you don’t take care of other parts of the world, it could eventually come back. We’re not an island, and even islands aren’t safe. But, you know, this is about a bunch of countries, including Mexico, that really have made no mass vaccination effort at all. You know, some civil society groups are trying on their own, but they just don’t have official government backing. And that’s really dangerous. And it meant that cases are surging in parts of Latin America and parts of Africa. And as we saw from covid, that leads to the development of new variants and things traveling back to the U.S. and other places around the world. So, certainly, something to pay attention to.

Rovner: Public health is important. World public health is important. Sarah.

Karlin-Smith: I looked at a piece called “Decisions by CVS and Optum Panicked Thousands of Their Sickest Patients,” by Arthur Allen for Kaiser Health News. It’s a deep dive into CVS and Optum moving out of, to some degree, business places where they provide home infusion services of perinatal nutrition to people that essentially cannot eat or drink in most cases. And they basically decided that it’s not a great business opportunity for them in many cases. But these are people that really depend on these services to live and survive, and they’re very complex medicines and essential nutrition to get and deliver. And at the same time, I think what really fascinated me about this story is it talks about this dynamic of while companies are getting out of the space where you’re providing this service to people that need these IV treatments to survive and live, there also has been development of these medical spas, as they’re called, where people that actually do not need IV hydration or IV nutrition are essentially being given it for nonmedical purposes. And there’s a lot of money being made there. And it just shows you how some of the profit incentives in our system don’t necessarily align with treating the people that actually need the health care first.

Rovner: Yeah, it’s like the people with diabetes not being able to get their drugs because people in Hollywood want to lose 10 pounds fast. But this obviously is, you know, another life-or-death issue. Well, I chose an op-ed this week in The New York Times by the University of Texas law professor Steven I. Vladeck called “Don’t Let Republican ‘Judge Shoppers’ Thwart the Will of Voters.” And it answered a lot of questions for me. First, how is it that so many suits end up in front of the same judges who the plaintiffs know are likely to rule in their favor, and all in Texas? So it turns out that Texas has distributed its federal judges in a way that in nine districts there is only one judge. And in 10 more, there are only two judges. Obviously, there’s no random draw in those districts where there’s only one judge. That’s what you’re going to get. So we keep seeing some of the same Texas judges, first Judge Reed O’Connor in Fort Worth, and now Matthew Kacsmaryk, a former advocate for a conservative think tank and the only federal judge in Amarillo. Judge O’Connor had the big ACA case, now has a big preventive care case. Judge Kacsmaryk has the abortion pill case that we’ve been talking about. It’s a really interesting piece about how that could really twist justice. But it also includes several ways to fix it. We’ll have to see if any of them actually get taken up.

OK. That is our show for this week. As always, if you enjoyed the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left us a review — that helps other people find us, too. Special thanks, as always, to our ever-patient producer, Francis Ying. Also, as always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth — all one word — @kff.org. Or you can tweet me as long as Twitter is still up. I’m @jrovner. Alice?

Ollstein: @AliceOllstein

Rovner: Rachel

Cohrs: @rachelcohrs

Rovner: Sarah.

Karlin-Smith: @SarahKarlin

Rovner: We will be back in your feed next week. Until then, be healthy.

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