Every person who agreed to get the smallpox vaccination was a potential outbreak averted, so the team was determined to vaccinate as many people as possible. 

The duo leaned on each other, sometimes literally, as they traversed the country’s rugged and watery geography. Khan, whom Miner sometimes referred to as “little brother,” used his local knowledge to help the team navigate both the cultural and physical landscape. When crossing rickety bamboo bridges, he would hold Miner’s hand and help him across. “We didn’t let him fall,” chuckled Khan. 

Episode 4 of “Eradicating Smallpox” explores what it took to bring care directly to people where they were. 

To conclude the episode, host Céline Gounder speaks with public health advocate Joe Osmundson about his work to help coordinate a culturally appropriate response to mpox in New York City during the summer of 2022. “The model that we’re trying to build is a mobile unit that delivers all sorts of sexual and primary health care opportunities. They’re opportunities!” exclaimed Osmundson.

The Host:

Céline Gounder
Senior fellow & editor-at-large for public health, KFF Health News

@celinegounder

Read Céline's stories

Céline is senior fellow and editor-at-large for public health with KFF Health News. She is an infectious diseases physician and epidemiologist. She was an assistant commissioner of health in New York City. Between 1998 and 2012, she studied tuberculosis and HIV in South Africa, Lesotho, Malawi, Ethiopia, and Brazil. Gounder also served on the Biden-Harris Transition COVID-19 Advisory Board. 

In Conversation with Céline Gounder:

Joe Osmundson 
Public health advocate and clinical assistant professor of biology at New York University

@reluctantlyjoe

Voices from the Episode:

Tim Miner
Former World Health Organization smallpox eradication program worker in Bangladesh

Shahidul Haq Khan
Former World Health Organization smallpox eradication program worker in Bangladesh

Click to open the transcript

Transcript: Speedboat Epidemiology

Podcast Transcript 

Epidemic: “Eradicating Smallpox” 

Season 2, Episode 4: Speedboat Epidemiology 

Air date: Aug. 29, 2023 

Editor’s note: If you are able, we encourage you to listen to the audio of “Epidemic,” which includes emotion and emphasis not found in the transcript. This transcript, generated using transcription software, has been edited for style and clarity. Please use the transcript as a tool but check the corresponding audio before quoting the podcast. 

TRANSCRIPT 

Céline Gounder: In the early 1970s, smallpox was still stalking parts of South Asia. India had launched its eradication program more than a decade before, but public health workers couldn’t keep up with the virus. 

Enter … the bifurcated needle. 

[Metallic ding sound] 

[Light instrumental music begins playing] 

Tim Miner: It was a marvelous invention in its simplicity. It looks like a little cocktail fork. 

Céline Gounder: You dip the prongs into a bit of vaccine … 

Tim Miner: And you would just prick the skin about 12 or 15 times until there was a little trace of blood and then you’d take another one. 

Céline Gounder: It barely took 30 seconds to vaccinate someone. 

And it didn’t hurt. 

Yogesh Parashar: No. 

Céline Gounder: Well … it didn’t hurt too much. 

Yogesh Parashar: It was just like a pinprick, rapidly done on your forearm. You had a huge supply with you and you just went about and — dot, dot, dot — vaccinated people, carry hundreds with you at one go. 

Tim Miner: And you could train somebody in a matter of minutes to do it. 

Céline Gounder: Easy to use. Easy to clean. And a big improvement over the twisting teeth of the vaccine instrument health workers had to use before. 

The bifurcated needle was maybe 2 and a half, 3 inches long. 

Small, but sturdy enough for rough-and-tumble fieldwork. 

Yogesh Parashar: It was made of steel. And it used to come in something that looked like a brick. It was just like one of those gold bricks that you see in the movies. 

Céline Gounder: And maybe worth its weight in gold. 

[Light instrumental music fades to silence] 

Céline Gounder: That “cocktail fork” was among the pioneering innovations that helped public health workers wipe out a centuries-old virus. 

Tim Miner: You had the bifurcated needle, you had the sterile water, and you had the freeze-dried vaccine, and you could mix them up and off you’d go. 

Céline Gounder: Ah, but getting there wasn’t always that easy. 

I’m Dr. Céline Gounder, and this is “Epidemic.” 

[Epidemic theme music plays] 

Céline Gounder: On this episode, we’re exploring what it took to deliver the smallpox vaccine to the people — and all the remaining places — that needed it most. 

In South Asia, Bangladesh was a major battleground in the campaign to stop smallpox. 

We spoke with a man who helped lead an eradication team there. 

Shahidul Haq Khan: My name is MD Shahidul Haq Khan. 

Céline Gounder: For our interview, Shahidul Haq Khan invited me to his home in Barishal. That’s in south-central Bangladesh. We sat at a table in the courtyard, and his granddaughter, Kashfia, who looked like she was around 10 years old, stood close by … 

Céline Gounder: Kashfia. So nice to meet you, Kashfia. I’m Céline. 

Kashfia: Hello. 

Céline Gounder: Hello. [Céline chuckles.] Are you going to listen to us? 

Céline Gounder: Kashfia wanted to hear her granddad’s stories, and I got the impression that was also important to Shahidul. 

As the two of us did our best to communicate through a translator — with neighbors, chickens, and street noise all around — Shahidul wanted me to understand why he was speaking with me and the significance of the smallpox campaign. 

Shahidul Haq Khan: [Shahidul speaking in Bengali] 

English translation: The purpose of saying these things is that we needed all this effort. We put a lot of hard work and effort behind smallpox eradication. 

Céline Gounder: Very hard work. You must be very proud of what you helped accomplish. 

Shahidul Haq Khan: [Shahidul speaking in Bengali] 

English translation: Yes, of course. Of course, I can say that we’re proud to say that we’ve eliminated smallpox from this country. 

Céline Gounder: The job was to hunt down smallpox — and stop it — in a country packed with people, crisscrossed by rivers, edged with mangrove forests, and dotted with remote lowland river islands. 

[Rain sounds fade in] 

Céline Gounder: And there were the monsoons. It rained A LOT. 

[Bouncy, upbeat music begins playing softly in the background] 

[Rain sounds fades out] 

Tim Miner: Uh, well, we got wet. [Tim chuckles.] To state the obvious. 

Céline Gounder: That’s Tim Miner. He was an officer with the World Health Organization in Bangladesh. 

Tim Miner: My legal name is Howard Miner, but I was the third Howard, so I got nicknamed Tim. 

Céline Gounder: Shahidul and Tim worked together for several months in 1974. 

The public health strategy was called “search and containment,” and a big part of that meant figuring out how to get the vaccine from one community to the next. 

Tim Miner: And occasionally you have to park your motorcycle, take your shoes and socks off, and walk across a leech-infested paddy field to get to the next case. 

Céline Gounder: The work depended on local knowledge, and Shahidul was the local knowledge. 

He was the lead Bangladeshi member on the eradication team, and when they arrived at a village that had a suspected case of smallpox, often Shahidul went in first, with Tim a few steps behind …  

Tim Miner: Someone would bring out some chairs. And sometimes we would have tea and biscuits. Or, if they didn’t have tea and biscuits, then somebody would climb up and get a coconut and chop off the top and watch me drink it and dribble the coconut milk all over myself, and everybody had a good time.  

Shahidul Haq Khan: [Shahidul speaking in Bengali] 

English translation: Dr. Miner called me “little brother.” I was younger then. How old was I? 21 or 22 years old. 

Tim Miner: He referred to me as “Dr. Miner,” even though I’m not a … a physician. That’s how he referred to me. 

Céline Gounder: Shahidul had been working in public health before he joined the smallpox effort. He offered guidance on culture — and occasionally gave Tim a hand on rickety bamboo bridges. 

Shahidul Haq Khan: [Shahidul speaking in Bengali] 

English translation: Most of the time, I escorted him across the bamboo bridge. I took his bag and held his hand and helped him across. 

Tim Miner: You learn to walk and not look down and just, uh, you know, hang onto the poles. And, fortunately, I never fell in. 

Shahidul Haq Khan: [Shahidul speaking in Bengali] 

English translation: We didn’t let him fall. 

[Bouncy, upbeat music fades out] 

Céline Gounder: The team was based on a hospital ship, called the Niramoy. It had all the basics: a couple of cabins, a space to perform surgery, plus a few comforts, like a generator they’d turn on in the morning for showers, a cook who picked up fresh fish at the market every day. 

Tim Miner: I would have a doodh cha, a tea with milk, and a kacha morich pyaz — scrambled eggs with, uh, chiles. 

Céline Gounder: The hospital ship hauled supplies from port to port. And everywhere they went, they towed a speedboat along with them. 

Tim Miner: We would receive reports of cases and we would get down from the ship in our speedboat, and the speedboat driver would take us as far as the boat could go. And we would walk, do the investigation, and find out who the contacts were and vaccinate the village and surrounding areas. 

Céline Gounder: Tim calls it “speedboat epidemiology.” The work required a willingness to go wherever and everywhere the virus took up residence. By and large, people welcomed them and were glad to get the vaccine. 

Tim Miner: They know about smallpox. They’ve been dealing with it, you know, all of their lives. And they have lost family members to the disease. 

Céline Gounder: Still, the task was huge: to find and vaccinate every person with smallpox — and all the people that person had come in contact with. 

[Subtle music begins playing] 

Céline Gounder: In modern-day public health, the work gets done with cellphones and spreadsheets, maybe social media. In Bangladesh in 1974, they had none of that. 

Shahidul and Tim had the speedboat, motorbikes, and their feet to cover a territory that took them all the way down to the coast. 

Tim Miner: First there’s Barishal … 

Shahidul Haq Khan: Latachapli … 

Tim Miner: … then there’s Faridpur … 

Shahidul Haq Khan: … Dankupara … 

Tim Miner: … then there’s Patuakhali. 

Shahidul Haq Khan: … and Kuakata. 

Céline Gounder: People were constantly on the move — maybe for seasonal work or better opportunities. That made contact tracing tricky. During one investigation, Tim identified a man who’d been exposed to the virus, but he’d left the region for Dhaka. 

The capital was densely populated — a city of 2 million in 1974. And smallpox was highly contagious. So Tim called a colleague — on the shortwave radio — to see if he could track down the man in Dhaka. 

[Ambient Dhaka street noises play in the background] 

Tim Miner: Well, it’s not just a street address or a ZIP code or anything like that, as you can well imagine. He lived in a basti, or a slum. And I described it as best I could. You know, ‘You enter by the big tree and turn left at the tea stall and walk the path and then start calling out for the family name.’ 

Céline Gounder: They found the guy! And vaccinated him. Tim says the man had smallpox, but the virus hadn’t quite erupted yet, so it was a pretty mild case. 

Tim Miner: Because of his immunization. It is somewhat miraculous, the needle in the haystack. 

[Music fades out] 

Céline Gounder: In Bangladesh, people weren’t likely to just show up to a local clinic to get the vaccine, so the team took the vaccine to the people. 

At its best, public health follows and bends to the rhythm of the culture. For example, after Ramadan, as Muslims began to break the fast for Eid … 

Tim Miner: Where people go back to their villages and visit and bring presents and gifts and food. 

[Ambient sounds of the water from a port in Bangladesh play] 

Céline Gounder: The team went to ports where steamer ships departed, asking in Bengali if travelers had come in contact with anyone with the disease’s distinctive pustules. 

Tim Miner: Guṭibasanta, uh, basanta rōgī. 

Céline Gounder: Which means “smallpox patient.” 

Tim Miner: Have you seen any guṭibasanta and basanta rōgī? 

Céline Gounder: Tim says he relied on his team to figure out how best to make the person in front of them comfortable. 

Tim Miner: ‘What would you do? What do you think should be done in this case?’ And I don’t think this is done often enough. It was a real partnership. It was real working together. 

Céline Gounder: Well, a partnership, yes. But Shahidul Haq Khan says the search-and-containment program was pretty strict. His work was meticulously checked and checked again. 

Remember, he was maybe 21 or 22 years old, with a big responsibility on his shoulders, and Tim Miner was a tough boss. 

Shahidul Haq Khan: [Shahidul speaking in Bengali] 

English translation: At any cost, we had to vaccinate all. There was no other way. 

Céline Gounder: Sometimes Shahidul had to return to the same home over and over — or hang out, if the man of the house was still in the fields working. 

Shahidul Haq Khan: [Shahidul speaking in Bengali] 

English translation: We had to wait until they returned. 

Shahidul Haq Khan: [Shahidul speaking in Bengali] 

English translation: Otherwise, Dr. Miner would again take us back there, no matter how late. [Shahidul laughs] 

Céline Gounder: One evening, Shahidul returned to the hospital ship after a day of door-to-door canvassing, and had to give a not-so-great report to Tim. 

[Tense music begins playing] 

Shahidul Haq Khan: [Shahidul speaking in Bengali] … a pregnant, uh, … 

English translation: I couldn’t vaccinate a pregnant woman in Dankupara. This was the first time that I couldn’t vaccinate someone. 

Shahidul Haq Khan: [Shahidul speaking in Bengali] 

English translation: I couldn’t convince her at all. He immediately told us to pack up. He stopped the work and said, “Let’s go.” 

Shahidul Haq Khan: [Shahidul speaking in Bengali] 

English translation: Immediately. At that very moment. 

Tim Miner: We were working basically 24/7, if need be. 

Céline Gounder: The team headed to the speedboat. It was late. And it was freezing. Shahidul remembers the bite of the cold air as they blasted across the water toward the woman’s village. 

Tim Miner: I fully understand, understood why this woman hesitated to be vaccinated. She was expecting a child and she didn’t want to do anything to jeopardize her life or the life of the unborn child. So, we were very gentle in talking with her and answering her questions. It was time well spent. 

Céline Gounder: The woman agreed to take the vaccine. 

Shahidul Haq Khan: [Shahidul speaking in Bengali] 

English translation: That day was one of the most memorable of my life. 

[Music fades to silence] 

Céline Gounder: Many on the team considered their outreach to women fundamental to success in South Asia, because … women talk. 

What they say, what they believe, echoes. 

Tim Miner: They get together, they do the laundry, they do the cooking, they share good times and bad times. This woman who was vaccinated probably showed her vaccination either in her family or in the village. And that’s the importance of getting one person, especially a pregnant woman who will tell others about immunization. 

Céline Gounder: Public health workers trying to end smallpox across South Asia mostly had the same tools — the vaccine, that bifurcated needle, and a strategy — on paper. But squashing the virus required tactics specific to each community: its needs, its culture, its worries … and its terrain. 

[Staccato music begins playing] 

Céline Gounder: Smallpox eradication workers went to great lengths to meet people where they were. 

But Joe Osmundson, who’s a public health advocate in New York City, told me that’s not an approach we see nearly enough in public health today. 

Joe Osmundson: Céline, it’s not your first time at the rodeo. [Celine laughs] Um, it’s like, we’ve all been through this again and again and again. 

We know what the problems are and yet we seem reluctant to actually do the right thing, which is to build processes that meet people where they’re at. 

Céline Gounder: After the break, more on what it looks like to bring public health directly to those who need it most. 

[Music fades to silence] 

Céline Gounder: Mpox, formerly known as monkeypox, is a highly contagious virus. Last summer, mpox cases spiked around the world, spreading quickly, predominantly among men who have sex with men. Mpox spreads through physical contact. It causes a painful blistering rash and, in extreme cases, it can be deadly. 

My colleague Joe Osmundson acted as a community liaison for the New York City Department of Health to help coordinate a culturally appropriate response to mpox. 

Joe Osmundson: I’m a microbiologist by training, but I also just do tons of advocacy and activism as a queer person who believes in equal access to the best biomedicine available. 

Céline Gounder: As mpox cases were increasing, we knew we needed to vaccinate those at highest risk as quickly as possible. Joe’s plan? Mobile vans to quickly bring mpox vaccines to places where high-risk people already were. 

Joe Osmundson: Our idea was to go to commercial sex venues, because commercial sex venues self-select for people with a large number of sexual partners. And if you give them the best possible immunity, that protects not just the people at the party but all the other people in the larger sexual network that they connect with. 

Céline Gounder: What is a commercial sex venue? 

Joe Osmundson: It’s basically a nonhousehold space where people gather for sex. 

When you have public venues where people gather, you have the opportunity to meet them where they’re at, to provide education, to provide condoms, to provide access to HIV testing and access to health care. 

So many queer people don’t have affirming doctors, don’t feel comfortable asking about sexual health with their physicians. So, you can put a van outside with affirming physicians and actually provide that preventative care that actually stops the infection. 

Céline Gounder: Did you run into any obstacles in doing this outreach? Setting up the mobile vans …? 

Joe Osmundson: So, there is a huge amount of mistrust in this community for city officials, for good reason. For many decades there was a group inside the New York City Department of Health that had undercover people who would go to these parties and find violations and close them down. So really it was only me and a couple other people doing outreach on-site. 

Céline Gounder: How did it work, what was the scene like, and what was your role in that? 

Joe Osmundson: Yeah, so, when I was there, I would go inside the club and, you know, there’s a little line, an area where people get dressed or undressed, and I would just hang out there and people would have a lot of questions. 

So, because, again, they perceived me as being, like, a part of their community, it was very easy to talk to people and just ask, you know, “Hey, have you had your vaccine yet? Have you had both doses?” If not, you know, it’ll take 15 minutes. I can walk you down to the van and get you that dose tonight. 

Céline Gounder: Were these mobile vaccination vans successful? 

Joe Osmundson: We find them to be massively successful. Once the city was able to get the vans there, people were so grateful to be able to get a shot on-site. 

We were giving 60, 80 doses per event — when the event might only have 140 people — so we were vaccinating 60% of these parties. 

That’s the other magic of the mobile units, was that you had people queer people talking to queer people, and even queer people of color talking to queer people of color and offering the care in terms that that community knows how to respond to and also just has more inherent trust with. 

Céline Gounder: But, at the same time, in New York City, mpox vaccination rates have been disproportionately low in Black communities. 

Joe Osmundson: Mm-hmm. 

Céline Gounder: As well as Hispanic communities. 

What could public health leaders have done from the start to ensure more equitable vaccine distribution, and what should they be doing now? 

Joe Osmundson: Yeah. It was a remarkable sort of mistake that, not just New York, but many cities made where they said we’ll build the foundation and then worry about equity later, because this is an emergency. 

So we’ll open up a brick-and-mortar in Chelsea, and then we’ll get the vaccine vans up at, you know, Brooklyn Pride, a Bronx health clinic. You know, we’ll do that later. 

We know that if you don’t do equity as the foundation, you will be chasing disparities. 

Céline Gounder: What can we say about who’s been vaccinated and who remains unvaccinated? 

Joe Osmundson: Black people are undervaccinated. They also have a higher rate of advanced HIV infection, and mpox plus advanced HIV means really severe disease and even death. Ninety percent of mpox deaths have been in Black people, Black queer people with advanced HIV. 

And we need something brand-new because we’ve been failing these folks for years. They have so many horrific experiences with their health care providers, or they don’t have insurance, or they’re underemployed, or they live super far from the nearest health care clinic. 

When people have difficulties accessing care, it spreads to every disease state, from HIV to mpox to primary care, etc. 

Céline Gounder: How can we apply this model of health outreach beyond mpox? 

Joe Osmundson: The model that we’re trying to build is a mobile unit that delivers all sorts of sexual and primary health care opportunities. They are opportunities! You know? If someone’s getting a covid vaccine, give them a flu vaccine at the same time. The literature shows that these interventions work. 

Céline Gounder: What else is there beyond vans? Are there other strategies when it comes to reaching people where they are that we haven’t employed that we should be thinking about? 

Joe Osmundson: We have affirming clinicians, affirming Black queer clinicians all over this city. Their expertise should be fostered. 

For years there’s been this model of health officials talking to community. And that’s outreach. And we aren’t done with that. 

We have experts, we have clinicians, we have epidemiologists, we have scientists who are in the community who know the science just as well as health officials. And communication needs to go two ways. 

Céline Gounder: That was Joe Osmundson, a microbiologist at New York University and the author of the book “Virology.” 

Joe Osmundson: The sexiest public health outreach worker of all time! [Laughter] A face made for radio. [Laughter] 

[“Epidemic” theme music begins playing] 

Céline Gounder: Next time on “Epidemic” … 

Larry Brilliant: Your company is sending death all over the world. You’re the greatest exporter of smallpox in history … You’ve got to stop this. 

Céline Gounder: “Eradicating Smallpox,” our latest season of “Epidemic,” is a co-production of KFF Health News and Just Human Productions. 

Additional support provided by the Sloan Foundation. 

This episode was produced by Taylor Cook, Zach Dyer, and me. 

Redwan Ahmed was our translator and local reporting partner in Bangladesh. 

Managing editor Taunya English was scriptwriter for the episode — with help from Stephanie O’Neill. 

Oona Tempest is our graphics and photo editor. 

The show was engineered by Justin Gerrish. 

Voice acting by Pinaki Kar. 

We had extra editing help from Simone Popperl. 

Music in this episode is from the Blue Dot Sessions and Soundstripe. 

We’re powered and distributed by Simplecast. 

If you enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. And leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps more people find the show. 

Follow KFF Health News on Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok. 

And find me on Twitter @celinegounder. On our socials, there’s more about the ideas we’re exploring on the podcasts. And subscribe to our newsletters at kffhealthnews.org so you’ll never miss what’s new and important in American health care, health policy, and public health news. 

I’m Dr. Céline Gounder. Thanks for listening to “Epidemic.” 

[“Epidemic” theme fades out] 

Credits

Taunya English
Managing editor

@TaunyaEnglish

Taunya is senior editor for broadcast innovation with KFF Health News, where she leads enterprise audio projects.

Zach Dyer
Senior producer

@zkdyer

Zach is senior producer for audio with KFF Health News, where he supervises all levels of podcast production.

Taylor Cook
Associate producer

@taylormcook7

Taylor is associate audio producer for Season 2 of Epidemic. She researches, writes, and fact-checks scripts for the podcast.

Oona Tempest
Photo editing, design, logo art

@oonatempest

Oona is a digital producer and illustrator with KFF Health News. She researched, sourced, and curated the images for the season.

Additional Newsroom Support

Lydia Zuraw, digital producer Tarena Lofton, audience engagement producer Hannah Norman, visual producer and visual reporter Simone Popperl, broadcast editor Chaseedaw Giles, social media manager Mary Agnes Carey, partnerships editor Damon Darlin, executive editor Terry Byrne, copy chief Gabe Brison-Trezise, deputy copy chiefChris Lee, senior communications officer 

Additional Reporting Support

Swagata Yadavar, translator and local reporting partner in IndiaRedwan Ahmed, translator and local reporting partner in Bangladesh

Epidemic is a co-production of KFF Health News and Just Human Productions.

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The Host

Julie Rovner
KFF Health News

@jrovner

Read Julie's stories.

Julie Rovner is chief Washington correspondent and host of KFF Health News’ weekly health policy news podcast, “What the Health?” A noted expert on health policy issues, Julie is the author of the critically praised reference book “Health Care Politics and Policy A to Z,” now in its third edition.

For the first time since 2004, it appears health insurance coverage will not be a central issue in the presidential campaign, at least judging from the first GOP candidate debate in Milwaukee Wednesday night. The eight candidates who shared the stage (not including absent front-runner Donald Trump) had major disagreements over how far to extend abortion restrictions, but there was not even a mention of the Affordable Care Act, which Republicans have tried unsuccessfully to repeal since it was passed in 2010.

Meanwhile, a new poll from KFF finds that health misinformation is not only rampant but that significant minorities of the public believe things that are false, such as that more people have died from the covid vaccine than from the covid-19 virus.

This week’s panelists are Julie Rovner of KFF Health News, Joanne Kenen of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico, Victoria Knight of Axios, and Margot Sanger-Katz of The New York Times.

Panelists

Joanne Kenen
Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico

@JoanneKenen

Read Joanne's stories

Victoria Knight
Axios

@victoriaregisk

Read Victoria's stories

Margot Sanger-Katz
The New York Times

@sangerkatz

Read Margot's stories

Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:

• The first Republican presidential debate of the 2024 cycle included a spirited back-and-forth about abortion, but little else about health care — and that wasn’t a surprise. During the primary, Republican presidential candidates don’t really want to talk about health insurance and health care. It’s not a high priority for their base.
• The candidates were badly split on abortion between those who feel decisions should be left to the states and those who support a national ban of some sort. Former Vice President Mike Pence took a strong position favoring a national ban. The rest revealed some public disagreement over leaving the question completely to states to decide or advancing a uniform national policy.
• Earlier this summer, Stanford University’s Hoover Institute unveiled a new, conservative, free-market health care proposal. It is the latest sign that Republicans have moved past the idea of repealing and replacing Obamacare and have shifted to trying to calibrate and adjust it to make health insurance a more market-based system. The fact that such plans are more incremental makes them seem more possible. Republicans would still like to see things like association health plans and other “consumer-directed” insurance options. Focusing on health care cost transparency could also offer an opportunity for a bipartisan moment.
• In a lawsuit filed this week in U.S. District Court in Jacksonville, two Florida families allege their Medicaid coverage was terminated by the state without proper notice or opportunity to appeal. It seems to be the first such legal case to emerge since the Medicaid “unwinding” began in April. During covid, Medicaid beneficiaries did not have to go through any kind of renewal process. That protection has now ended. So far, the result is that an estimated 5 million people have lost their coverage, many because of paperwork issues, as states reassess the eligibility of everyone on their rolls. It seems likely that more pushback like this is to come.
• A new survey released by KFF this week on medical misinformation found that the pandemic seems to have accelerated the trend of people not trusting public health and other institutions. It’s not just health care. It’s a distrust of expertise. In addition, it showed that though there are people on both ends — the extremes — there is also a muddled middle.
• Legislation in Texas that was recently signed into law by Republican Gov. Greg Abbott hasn’t gotten a lot of notice. But maybe it should, because it softens some of the state’s anti-abortion restrictions. Its focus is on care for pregnant patients; it gives doctors some leeway to provide abortion when a patient’s water breaks too early and for ectopic pregnancies; and it was drafted without including the word “abortion.” It bears notice because it may offer a path for other states that have adopted strict bans and abortion limits to follow.

Plus, for “extra credit,” the panelists suggest health policy stories they read this week they think you should read, too:

Julie Rovner: KFF Health News’ “Doctors and Patients Try to Shame Insurers Online to Reverse Prior Authorization Denials,” by Lauren Sausser.

Margot Sanger-Katz: KFF Health News’ “Life in a Rural ‘Ambulance Desert’ Means Sometimes Help Isn’t on the Way,” by Taylor Sisk.

Joanne Kenen: The Atlantic’s “A Simple Marketing Technique Could Make America Healthier,” by Lola Butcher.

Victoria Knight: The New York Times’ “The Next Frontier for Corporate Benefits: Menopause,” by Alisha Haridasani Gupta.

Also mentioned in this week’s episode:

• NPR’s “Two Families Sue Florida for Being Kicked off Medicaid in ‘Unwinding’ Process,” by Selena Simmons-Duffin
• NPR’s “Texas Has Quietly Changed Its Abortion Law,” by Selena Simmons-Duffin.
• KFF’s “Poll: Most Americans Encounter Health Misinformation, and Most Aren’t Sure Whether It’s True or False.”

Click to open the transcript

Transcript: A Not-So-Health-y GOP Debate

[Editor’s note: This transcript, generated using transcription software, has been edited for style and clarity.]

Julie Rovner: Hello and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Julie Rovner, chief Washington correspondent for KFF Health News. And I’m joined by some of the best and smartest health reporters in Washington. We’re taping this week on Thursday, Aug. 24, at 10 a.m. As always, news happens fast, and things might have changed by the time you hear this. So, here we go. We are joined today via video conference by Margot Sanger-Katz of The New York Times.

Margot Sanger-Katz: Good morning.

Rovner: Joanne Kenen of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico.

Joanne Kenen: Hi, everybody.

Rovner: And Victoria Knight of Axios News.

Victoria Knight: Hello, everyone.

Rovner: No interview this week, but we’ll have an entire interview episode next week. More on that later. First, we will get to this week’s news. Well, Wednesday night saw the first Republican presidential debate of the 2024 cycle, minus front-runner Donald Trump, in what could only be called a melee, on Fox News Channel. And while there was a spirited debate about abortion, which we’ll get to in a minute, I didn’t hear a single word about anything else health-related — not Medicare or Medicaid, nor any mention of the Affordable Care Act. Was anybody surprised by that? For the record, I wasn’t. I wasn’t really expecting anything except abortion.

Kenen: Well, somebody, I think it was [former New Jersey Gov. Chris] Christie actually pointed out that nobody was talking about it.

Knight: Mike Pence. It was [former Vice President] Mike Pence, actually.

Kenen: Oh, Pence. OK. “Nobody’s talking about Medicare and Social Security.” And then he didn’t talk about it, and nobody mentioned the ACA.

Rovner: Is the ACA really gone as a Republican issue, for this cycle, do we think?

Kenen: Well, I think it’s become, like, a guerrilla warfare. Like, they’re still trying to undermine it. They’re not trying to repeal it, but they’re looking at its sort of soft underbelly, so to speak, and trying to figure out where they can put more market forces on, which we can sort of come back to later. But they spent 10 years trying to repeal it, and they just figured out what they’ve got to do now is pretend it’s not there. Right now, abortion is their topic.

Rovner: Well, let us turn to that.

Sanger-Katz: Yeah, I was just going to say that we’ve been seeing this happen a little bit over the last couple of cycles. In the 2020 race — I went through the transcripts of all of the speakers during the Republican National Convention and was really staggered by how few mentions of Obamacare there were relative to the way that the issue had been discussed in the past. But I think — just a note, that this is the Republican debate. Republicans don’t really want to be talking about health insurance and health care, because they don’t really have affirmative plans to put forward and because I think that they see that there are some real political liabilities in staking out a strong position on these issues. But in a general election, I think it will be impossible for them to avoid it, because, I think, Joe Biden has a lot of things that he wants to say. I think he is very committed to, in particular, broadcasting that he wants to protect Medicare. I think he’s quite proud of the expansions that he’s made of the Affordable Care Act. And so, this is a little bit of a weird moment in the race because, you know, we really only have one party that’s having a primary, and its leading candidate is not participating in the debates. And so, I think these candidates are trying to focus elsewhere. But it is — I will say, as someone who’s covered a couple of these now — it is a weird experience to have health care and health policy feel like a second-tier issue, because it was so central — Obamacare, in particular — was just so central to so many of these election cycles and such an animating and unifying issue among Republican voters, that this kind of post-failure-of “repeal and replace” era feels very different.

Kenen: One really quick thing is, they’re going to hit Biden on inflation. Economically, it’s his most vulnerable point, and health care costs are a burden. And I was a little surprised, without going into Obamacare and repeal and all that stuff, they mentioned the price of food, the price of gas, they mentioned interest rates and housing. It would have been really easy, and I expect that at some point they will start doing it, to talk about the cost of health care, because Biden’s done a huge amount on coverage and making insurance more affordable and accessible. But the cost of health care, as we all know, is still high in America.

Rovner: And at very least, the cost of prescription drugs, which has been a bipartisan issue going back many, many years. All right. Well, the one health issue that, not surprisingly, did get a lot of attention last night was abortion. With the exception of Mike Pence, who has been an anti-abortion absolutist for his entire tenure in Congress, as governor of Indiana, and as vice president, everyone else looked pretty uncomfortable trying to walk the line between the very anti-abortion base of the party and the recognition that anti-abortion absolutism has been a losing electoral strategy since the Supreme Court overturned Roe last year. What does this portend for the rest of the presidential race and for the rest of the down-ballot next year? Rather than trying to bury the fact that they all disagree, they all just publicly disagreed?

Knight: And I think they also, like, if you listened, [former U.S. ambassador to the United Nations] Nikki Haley kind of skirted around how she would address it. She talked about some other things, like contraception and saying that there just weren’t enough votes in the Senate to pass any kind of national abortion ban. [Florida Gov.] Ron DeSantis also, similarly, said he was proud of his six-week bill but didn’t quite want to answer about a national abortion ban. There were the few that did say, like, Hey, we’re into that. And some said, You know, it needs to go back to the states. So there definitely was kind of this slew of reactions on the stage, which I think just shows that the Republican Party is figuring out what message, and they don’t have a unified one on abortion, for sure.

Rovner: I do want to talk about Nikki Haley for a second, because this is what she’s been saying for a long time that she thinks that there’s a middle ground on abortion. And, you know, bless her heart. I’ve been covering this for almost 40 years and there has never been a middle ground. And she says, well, everybody should be for contraception. Well, guess what? There’s a lot of anti-abortion stalwarts who think that many forms of contraception are abortion. So there isn’t even a consensus on contraception. Might she be able to convince people that there could be a middle ground here?

Sanger-Katz: Oh, what I found sort of interesting about her answers: I think on their face they were kind of evasive. They were like, I don’t need to answer this question because there’s not a political consensus to do these things. But I do think it was sort of revealing of where the political consensus is and isn’t that I think she’s right. Like, realistically, there aren’t the votes to totally ban abortion; there aren’t the votes to renew the Roe standard. And I think she was in some ways very honestly articulating the bind that Republicans find themselves in, where they, and I think a lot of their voters, have these very strong pro-life values. At the same time, they recognize that getting into discussions about total abortion bans gives no favors politically and also isn’t going to happen in the near future. So, I felt like, as a journalist, you know, thinking about how I would feel having asked her that question, I felt very dissatisfied by her answer, because she really didn’t answer what she would like to do. But I do think she channeled the internal debate that all these candidates are facing, which is, like, is it worth it to go all the way out there with a policy that I know will alienate a lot of American voters when I know that it cannot be achieved?

Rovner: I was actually glad that she said that because I’ve been saying the opposite is true also — everybody says, well, why didn’t, you know, Congress enshrine abortion rights when they could have? The fact is, they never could have. There have never been 60 votes in the Senate for either side of this debate. That’s why they tried early after Roe to do national bans and then a constitutional amendment. They could never get enough votes. And they tried to do the Freedom of Choice Act and other abortion rights bills, and they couldn’t get those through either. And this is where I get to remind everybody, for the 11,000th time, the family planning law, the Title X, the federal Family Planning [Services and Public Research] Act, hasn’t been reauthorized since 1984 because neither side has been able to muster the votes even to do that. Sorry, Joanne, you wanted to say something.

Kenen: No, I thought Haley’s response on abortion was actually really pretty interesting on two points, right? She didn’t technically answer the question, but she also said this question is a fantasy — you know, face it. And, you know, she said that, and then she mentioned the word contraception. She did not dwell on it. She sort of said it sort of quickly. She missed an opportunity, maybe, just for one or two more sentences. You know, she said we need to make sure that contraception … she’s the only woman on that stage. She’s a mother; she’s got two kids. And, you know, there is uncertainty. After Dobbs there were advocacy groups saying, you know, they’re going to ban contraception tomorrow, and that didn’t happen. And we still don’t know how that fight will play out and what types of contraception will be debated. But I noticed that she said that on a stage full of Republicans, and I noticed that nobody else — all men — didn’t pick up on it.

Rovner: The big divide seemed to be, do you want to leave it completely to the states or do you want to have some kind of national floor of a ban? And they seemed, yeah —

Kenen: Yeah, and the moderators didn’t pick up on that. I mean, there was such a huge brouhaha on the stage. You know, the moderators had a lot of trouble moderating last night. It wouldn’t have been easy for them to get off of abortion and follow up on contraception. But I thought it was just sort of an interesting thing that she noted it.

Sanger-Katz: I will say also, and I agree with Julie: With the possible exception of Mike Pence, even the candidates that were endorsing some kind of national abortion policy, we’re talking about a 15-week gestational limit. There really wasn’t anyone who was coming out and saying, “Let’s ban all abortions. Let’s even go to six weeks,” which many of the states, including Florida, have done. So I do think, again, like, even the candidates that were more willing to take an aggressive stand on whether the federal government should get involved in this issue were moderating the position that you might have expected for them before Dobbs.

Kenen: But even 15 weeks shows how the parameters of this conversation have changed, because what the Republicans had been doing pre-Dobbs was 20 weeks, with their so-called fetal-pain bills. So 15 weeks, which would have sounded extremely radical two years ago — compared to six weeks, 15 sounds like, oh, you know, this huge opportunity for the pro-choice people. And it is another sign of how this space has shrunk.

Sanger-Katz: Yeah, no, I don’t mean that it’s a huge opportunity for the pro-choice people, but I think it reflects that even the candidates who were willing to go the most out on the limb in wanting to enforce a national abortion restriction understand the politics do not permit them to openly advocate going all the way towards a full ban.

Rovner: While we are on the subject of Republicans and health, there actually is a new Republican plan to overhaul the health system. Sort of. It’s from the Hoover Institution at Stanford, from which a lot of conservative policy proposals emanate. And it’s premised on the concept that consumers should have better control of the money spent on their health care and a better idea of what things cost. Now, this has basically been the theme of Republican health plans for as long as I can remember. And the lead author of this plan is Lanhee Chen, who worked for Republicans in the Senate and then led presidential candidate Mitt Romney’s policy shop, and whose name has been on a lot of conservative proposals. But I find this one notable more for its timing. Republicans, as we mentioned, appear to have internalized the idea that the only thing they can agree on when it comes to health care is that they don’t like the Affordable Care Act. Is that changing or is this just sort of hope from the Republican side of the policy wonk shop?

Sanger-Katz: I think this is connected to the discussion that we had about the debate, but it feels to me like we are in a bit of a post Obamacare era where the fights about “Are we going to continue to have Obamacare or not?” have sort of faded from the mainstream of the discussion. But there’s still plenty of discussion to be had about the details. The Democrats clearly want to expand Obamacare in various ways. Some of those they have done in a temporary fashion. Others are still on the wish list. And I think this feels very much like the kind of calibration adjustment, you know, small changes, tinkers on the Republican side to try to make the health insurance market a little bit more market-based. But this is not a big overhaul kind of plan. This is not a repeal-and-replace plan. This is not a plan that is changing the basic architecture of how most Americans get their insurance and how it is paid for. This is a plan that is making small changes to the regulation of insurance and to the way that the federal government finances certain types of insurance. That said, I think the fact that it’s more incremental makes it feel like these are things that are more likely to potentially happen because they feel like there are things that you could do without having a huge disruptive effect and a big political backlash and that you could maybe develop some political consensus around.

Rovner: It does, although I do feel like, you know, this is a very 2005 plan. This is the kind of thing that we would have seen 15 years ago. But as Democrats have gotten the Affordable Care Act and discovered that the details make it difficult, Republicans have actually gotten a lot on the transparency side and, you know, helping people understand what things cost. And that hasn’t worked very well either. So there’s a long way to go, I think, on both sides to actually make some of these things work. Victoria, did you want to add something?

Knight: Yeah, I’ve been talking to Republicans a lot, trying to figure out like what is their next go-to going to be. And I think they’re pretty understanding that ACA is set in place, but they still don’t want to give up that there are alternative types of health insurance that they want to put out there. And I think that seems that’s kind of what they realize they can accomplish if they get another Republican president and they’re going to try to do association health plans again. They’re going to try to expand some of these what they call health reimbursement arrangements, things like that, to just like kind of try to add some other types of health insurance options, because I think they know that ACA is just too entrenched and that there’s not much else they can do outside of that. And then, yeah, I think focus a little more on the transparency and cost because they know that’s a winning message and that is the one thing in Congress right now on the health care end that seems to have bipartisan momentum for the most part.

Rovner: Yeah, I think you’re absolutely right. Well, another issue that could have come up in last night’s debate but didn’t was the unwinding of Medicaid coverage from the pandemic. The news this week is that the first lawsuit has been filed accusing a state of mistreating Medicaid beneficiaries. The suit filed against Florida by the National Health Law Program and other groups is on behalf of two kids, one with a disability, and a mom who recently gave birth. All would seem to still be eligible, and the mom says she was never told how to contest the eligibility determination that she was no longer eligible, and that she was cut off when she tried to call and complain. State officials say their materials have been approved by the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services, which they have, and that Florida, in fact, has a lower procedural disenrollment rate than the average state, which is also true. But with 5 million people already having been dropped from Medicaid, I imagine we’re going to start to see a little more pushback from advocacy groups about people who are, in all likelihood, still eligible and have been wrongly dropped. I’m actually a little surprised that it took this long.

Kenen: Many of the people who have been dropped, if they’re still eligible, they can get recertified. I mean, there’s no open enrollment season for Medicaid. If you’re Medicaid-eligible, you’re Medicaid-eligible. The issue is, obviously, she didn’t understand this. It’s not being communicated well. If you show up at the hospital, they can enroll you. But people who are afraid that they aren’t covered anymore may be afraid of going to the hospital even if they need to. So there’s all sorts of bad things that happen. In some of these cases, there are simple solutions if the person walks in the door and asks for help. But there are barriers to walking in the door and asking for help.

Rovner: I was going to say one of the plaintiffs in this lawsuit is a child with a disease …

Kenen: Cystic fibrosis.

Rovner: Right. That needs expensive drugs and had not been able to get her drugs because she had been cut off of Medicaid. So there’s clearly stuff going on here. It’s probably true that Florida is better than the average state, which means that the average state is probably not doing that well at a lot of these things. And I think we’re just starting to see, you know, it’s sort of mind-numbing to say, oh, 5 million people have been separated from their health insurance. And again, we have no idea how many of those have gotten other health insurance, how many of those don’t even know and won’t know until they show up to get health care and find out they’re no longer covered. And how many people have been told they’re no longer covered but can’t figure out how to complain and get back on?

Sanger-Katz: And it’s this very extreme thing that’s happening right now. But it is, in many ways, the normal system on steroids. You know, if you’ve been covering Medicaid for any period of time, as all of us have, like, people get disenrolled all of the time from Medicaid for these administrative reasons, because of some weird hiccup in the system, they move, their income didn’t match in some database. This is a problem that a lot of states face because they have financial incentives often to drop people off of Medicaid because they have to pay a portion of the cost of providing health care. And a lot of them have rickety systems, and they’re dealing with a population that often has unstable housing or complicated lives that make it hard for them to do a lot of paperwork and respond to letters in a timely way. And so part of the way that I’ve been thinking about this unwinding is that there’s a particular thing that’s happening now, and I think there’s a lot of scrutiny on it, appropriately. And I think that there should be to make sure that the states are not cutting any corners. But I also think in some ways it’s sort of like a way of pressure-testing the normal system and reminding us of all of the people who slip through the cracks in normal times and will continue to do so after this unwinding is over. And these stories in Florida, to me, do not feel that dissimilar from the kinds of stories that I have heard from patients and advocates in states long before this happened.

Rovner: Yeah, I think you’re right. It’s just shining a light on what happens. I mean, it was the oddity that they were … states were not allowed to redetermine eligibility during the pandemic because normally states are required to redetermine eligibility at least once a year. And I think some do it twice a year. So it’s, you know, these redeterminations happen. They just don’t happen all in a huge pile the way they’re happening now. And I think that’s the concern.

Sanger-Katz: And it also, I think, really shines a light on the way that Medicaid is structured, where the Affordable Care Act simplified it quite a lot because, [for example], you’re in an expansion state and you earn less than a certain amount of money, then you can get Medicaid. But there are all of these categories of eligibility where, you know, you have to be pregnant, you have to be the parent of a child of a certain age. You have to demonstrate that you have a certain disability. And I think [it] is a reminder that this is a pretty complicated safety net, Medicaid. You know, there’s lots of things that beneficiaries have to prove to states in order to stay eligible. And there’s lots of things, honestly, you know, if states really want to make sure that they are reserving resources for the people who need them, that they do need to be checking on. And so I think we’re all just sort of seeing that this is a messy, complicated process. And I think we’re also seeing that there are these gaps and holes in who Medicaid covers. And it’s not the case that we have a perfect and seamless system of universal coverage in this country. We have this patchwork and people do fall between the cracks.

Kenen: And this is one of the most vulnerable populations, obviously. Some of the elderly are also very vulnerable, but these are people who may not speak either English or Spanish. They don’t have access to computers necessarily. I mean, we’re giving the least assistance to the population that needs the most assistance. And, you know, I mean, I think if Biden wanted to be really savvy about fixing it, he’d come out with some slogan about “Instead of Medicare unwinding, it’s time to have Medicare rewinding,” or something like that, because they’re going to have to figure … I mean, they have taken some steps, but it’s a huge mess, and the uninsurance rate is going to go up, and hospitals are going to have patients that are no longer covered, and it’s not going to be good for either the health care system or certainly the people who rely on Medicaid.

Rovner: I think it’s noteworthy how much the administration has been trying not to politicize this, that apparently, you know, we keep hearing that they won’t even tell us which states, although you can … people can sort of start to figure it out. But, you know, states that are having a more difficult time keeping eligible people on the rolls, shall we say, when the administration could have … I mean, they could be trumpeting, you know, which states are doing badly and trying to shame them. And they are rather very purposely not doing that. So I do think that there’s at least an attempt to keep this as collegial, if you will, as possible in a presidential election year. So my colleagues here at KFF have a depressing, but I guess not all that surprising, poll out this week about medical misinformation and how much of the public believes things that simply aren’t true — like that more people died from the covid vaccine than covid itself, or that ivermectin is a useful treatment for the virus. It’s not. It’s for parasites. And the survey didn’t just ask about covid. People have been exposed to, and a significant percentage believe, things like that it’s harder to get pregnant if you’ve been on birth control and stop. It isn’t. Or that people who keep guns in their house are less likely to be killed by a gun than those who don’t. They’re not. But what’s really depressing is the fact that the pandemic seems to have accelerated an already spiraling trend in distrust of public institutions in general: government, local and national media, and social media. Are we ever going to be able to start to get that back? I mean, you know, we talk about the woes with public health, but this goes a lot deeper than that, doesn’t it?

Kenen: And it’s not just health care. When you look at historical metrics about trust — which I’ve had to for a course I teach — we were never a very trusting society, it turns out. We’ve had large sectors of the population haven’t been trusting of many institutions and sectors of society for decades. We’re just not too huggy in this country. It’s gotten way worse. And what you said is right, but it’s broad. It’s not just doctors. It’s not just vaccines, it’s expertise. This distrust is really corrosive. But of all the things in that survey, one that really blew me away was we’re like, what, 13 years since Obamacare was passed? Only 7% or 8% — “only,” I should say only in quotes, you know — only 7% or 8% still thought there were death panels, but something like 70% wasn’t sure if there were death panels. Like, has anyone known anyone who went before a death panel? Since 2010? And yet 70% — I mean, I may be a little off, I didn’t write it down — but it’s something like 70% weren’t sure. And that is a mind-blowing number. It just says, you know, they weren’t ready to come out and say, yes, there are death panels. But that meant that a lot of Democrats also weren’t sure if there were death panels There are no death panels.

Knight: I was just gonna say, I also thought it was interesting that it showed people do use social media to get a lot of their information, but then they also don’t trust the information that they get on there. So it’s kind of like, yeah …

Rovner: And they’re right not to!

Knight: Yeah, they’re absolutely right not to. But then it’s also like, well, they’re then just not getting health information at all, or if they’re getting it, they just don’t trust it. So just showcasing how difficult it is to fill that void of health information, like, people just aren’t getting it or don’t trust it.

Rovner: I feel like some of this is social literacy. I mean, you know, we talk about health literacy and things that people can understand, but, you know, people don’t understand the way journalism works, the difference between the national news and what you see on Facebook. And I think that’s, Joanne, going back to your point about people not trusting expertise, it’s also not being able to figure out what expertise is and who has expertise. I mean, that’s really sort of the bottom line of all this, isn’t it?

Kenen: Well, I mean, I was doing some research — I can’t remember the exact details, this was something I read several months ago — but there was one survey maybe a couple of years ago where the majority of people said they don’t trust the news they read, but they’re still getting their news from something that they don’t trust. So it sounds sort of funny, but it’s actually not. I mean, it’s really a crisis of people don’t know what to believe. The uncertainty is corrosive, and it’s health care and politics, this widening chasm of people with alternative sets of facts — or alternative worldviews, anyway. So it’s not good. I mean, it was a really good survey, it was a really interesting survey, but some of it wasn’t so surprising. I mean, that there’s still people who, like, the fertility issues and the vaccines. You can sort of understand why those have lingered in the environment we’re in. I had actually had a conversation the other day with a political scientist who had studied the death panel rumors 10 years ago. And I said, what about now? And, you know, he was sort of … he hadn’t looked at it and he was sort of saying, well, you know, there aren’t any. And people have probably figured that out by now. Well, no. I have to email him the study, right?

Sanger-Katz: Anytime that I read a study like this, I am also reminded — and I think it is useful for all of us to be reminded of this and probably most people who are listening to the podcast — that the average American is just not as tuned in on the news and on the Washington debate and on the minutia of public policy, as all of us are. So, you know, and I think that that is part of the reason why you see so many people not sure about these things. It’s clearly the case that they are being exposed to bad information and that is contributing to their uncertainty. And I think the rise of misinformation about both health policy and about actual, you know, health care, in the case of covid, is a bad and relatively newer phenomenon. But I also think a lot of people just aren’t paying that close attention, you know, and it’s good to be reminded of that.

Kenen: The book I just read that I referred to — it’s by an MIT political scientist named Adam Berinsky, and it’s called “Political Rumors.” And it just came out, and he was talking about exactly that, that we’re all exposed to misinformation. We can’t avoid it. It’s everywhere. And that for people who aren’t as engaged with day-to-day politics, they end up uncertain. That’s this messy middle, which they also use in the KFF survey. They came up with a very similar conclusion about the “muddled middle,” I think was the phrase they used. And what this political scientist said to me the other day was that, you know, pollsters tend to not look at the “I don’t know, I’m uncertain, no opinion.” They sort of shunt them aside and they look at the “yes” or “no” people. And he was saying, no, no, no, you know, this is the population we really need to pay attention to, the “Uncertains” because they’re probably the ones you can reach more. And in the real world, we saw that with vaccination, right? I mean, in the primary series — I mean, booster takeup was low — but in the primary when there was a lot of uncertainty about the vaccines, the people who said “no way I am ever going to get the vaccine” — I mean, KFF was surveying this every month — most of them didn’t. You know, a few on the margins did, but most of them who were really militantly against the vaccine didn’t take it. The ones who were “I don’t know” and “I’m a little scared” and “I’m waiting and seeing” … a lot of them did take it. They were reached. And that’s sort of an important lesson to shift the focus as we deal with distrust, as we deal with disinformation and we deal with messaging, which is good, and truth-building and confidence-building, it is that muddled middle that’s going to have to be more of a target than we have traditionally thought.

Rovner: Well, in the interest of actually giving good information, we have a couple of updates on the reproductive health front. For those of you keeping score, abortion bans took effect this week in South Carolina and Indiana after long drawn-out court battles. Meanwhile, in Texas, an update to our continuing discussion of women with pregnancy complications who’ve been unable to get care because doctors fear running afoul of that state’s ban, a couple of weeks ago, reports Selena Simmons-Duffin at NPR, Texas Gov. Greg Abbott very quietly signed a law that created a couple of exceptions to the ban for ectopic pregnancies and premature rupture of membranes, both of which are life-threatening to the pregnant woman, but just not necessarily immediately life-threatening. I had not heard a word about this change in the law until I saw Selena’s story. Had any of you?

Kenen: In fact, it should have come up because of this court case in Texas about, you know, a broader health exception — it’s not even “health,” it’s life-threatening. It’s like, at what point do you get sick enough that your life is in danger as opposed to, you know, should you be treating that woman before … you see what direction it’s going, and you don’t let them go to the brink of death? I mean, that was the court case and Abbott fought that. But yeah, it was interesting.

Rovner: It was a really interesting story that was also, you know, pushed by a state legislator who was trying very hard not to … never to say the word abortion and to just make sure that, you know, this was about health care and not abortion. It’s an interesting story, we will link to it.

Sanger-Katz: I wonder if other states will do this as well. It seems like, as we’ve discussed, you know, abortion bans are not as popular as I think many Republican politicians thought they would [be]. And I do think that these cases of women who face really terrible health crises and are unable to get treated are contributing to the public’s dislike of these policies. And on the one hand, I think that there is a strong dislike of exceptions among people who support abortion bans because they don’t want the loopholes to get so big that the actual policy becomes meaningless. On the other hand, it seems like there is a real incentive for them in trying to fix these obvious problems, because I think it contributes to bad outcomes for women and children. And I think it also contributes to political distaste for the abortion ban itself.

Kenen: But it’s very hard to legislate every possible medical problem …  I mean, what Texas did in this case was they legislated two particular medical problems. And some states … they have the ectopic — I mean, ectopic is not … there’s no stretch of the imagination that that’s viable. Right? The only thing that happens with an ectopic pregnancy is it either disintegrates or it hemorrhages. I mean, the woman is going to have a problem, but making a list of “you get this condition, you can have a medical emergency abortion, but if you have that condition and your state legislator didn’t happen to think about it, then you can’t.” I mean, the larger issue is: How do you balance the legal restrictions and medical judgments? And that’s … I don’t think any state that has a ban has completely figured that out.

Rovner: Right. And we’re back to legislators practicing medicine, which is something that I think the public does seem to find distasteful.

Sanger-Katz: I mean, I don’t think that this solves the problem at all, but I think it does show a surprising responsiveness to the particular bad outcomes that are getting the most publicity and a sort of new flexibility among the legislators who support these abortion bans. So it’s interesting.

Rovner: All right. Meanwhile, another shocking story about pregnant women being treated badly. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reported this week that a survey conducted this April found that 1 in 5 women reported being mistreated by medical professionals during pregnancy or delivery. For women of color, the rate was even higher: more than 1 in 4. Mistreatment included things like getting no response to calls for help, being yelled at or scolded, and feeling coerced into accepting or rejecting certain types of treatment. We know a lot of cases where women in labor or after birth reported problems that went ignored. Among the most notable, of course, was tennis legend Serena Williams, who gave birth to her second child this week after almost not surviving the birth of her first. We’re hearing so much about the high maternal mortality rate in the U.S. What is it going to take to change this? This isn’t something that can be solved by throwing more money at it. This has got to be sort of a change in culture, doesn’t it?

Kenen: No. I mean, it’s … if someone who’s just given birth, particularly if it’s the first time and you don’t know what’s normal and what’s not and what’s dangerous and what’s not dangerous, and, you know, it’s a trauma to your body. I mean, you know, I had a very much-wanted child, but labor is tough, right? I always say that evolution should have given us a zipper. But the philosophy should be, if someone who’s just been through this physical and emotional ordeal, has discomfort or a question or a fear, that you respect it and that you calm it down, you don’t dismiss it or yell at somebody. When you’re pregnant, you read all these books and you go to Lamaze workshops and you learn all this stuff about labor and delivery. You learn nothing about what happens right after. And it’s actually quite uncomfortable. And no one had ever told me what to expect. And I didn’t know. And I always, like, when younger women are having babies, I let them know that, you know, talk to your doctor or learn about this or be prepared for this, because that is a really vulnerable point. And that this survey — and it’s more Black and poor women, and Latina women in this survey, it’s not that … it’s disproportionate like everything else in health care — they’re being disrespected and not listened to. And some of them are going to have bad medical outcomes because of that.

Rovner: As we are seeing. All right. Well, that is this week’s news now. We will take a quick break. Then we will come back and do our extra credit.

Hey, “What the Health?” listeners: You already know that few things in health care are ever simple. So if you like our show, I recommend you also listen to “Tradeoffs,” a podcast that goes even deeper into our costly, complicated, and often counterintuitive health care system. Hosted by longtime health journalist and my friend Dan Gorenstein, “Tradeoffs” digs into the evidence and research data behind health care policies and tells the stories of real people impacted by decisions made in C-suites, doctors’ offices, and even Congress. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

OK, we’re back. It’s time for our extra-credit segment. That’s when we each recommend a story we read this week we think you should read too. As always, don’t worry, if you missed it; we will post the links on the podcast page at KFFHealthNews.org and in our show notes on your phone or other mobile device. Victoria, why don’t you go first this week?

Knight: So my extra credit is from The New York Times, and the story is called “The Next Frontier for Corporate Benefits: Menopause.” It basically details how a lot of companies are realizing that, you know, as more women get into leadership positions, high-level leadership, executive positions, they’re in their 40s, late 40s, early 50s, that’s when menopause or perimenopause starts happening. And that’s something that can last for a while. I didn’t realize the stories, that it can last almost 10 years sometimes. And so it was talking about how, you know, it affects women for a long period of time. It can also affect their productivity in the workplace and their comfort and being able to accomplish things. And so they were realizing, you know, we kind of need to do something to help these women stay in these positions. And there was actually an interesting tidbit at the very end where it was talking about some companies may even be, like, legally compelled to make accommodations. And that’s due to the new Pregnant Workers Fairness Act, which says that employers have to provide accommodations for people experiencing pregnancy but also related medical conditions. They’re saying menopause could be included in that. And just some of the benefits some of these companies were offering were access to virtual specialists, but they were talking about, like, if they need to do other things like cooling rooms and stuff like that. So I thought it was kind of interesting. And another employer benefit that maybe some employers are thinking about adding.

Kenen: I think all offices should have, like, little nap cubicles and man-woman, pregnant-not pregnant. And, you know, just like “life is rough.” [laughter]

Knight: I agree.

Kenen: Just a little corner!

Rovner: Joanne, why don’t you go next?

Kenen: Mine is from The Atlantic. It’s by Lola Butcher. And it is “A Simple Marketing Technique Could Make America Healthier.” And it’s basically talking about how some medical practices are doing what we in the news business and the tech industry knows of as “A-B testing.” You know, a tech company may try a big button or a little button and see which one consumers like. Newsrooms change headlines— headline A, headline B and see which one draws more readers — and that hospitals and medical practices have been trying to do. In some cases, it’s text messaging two different kinds of reminders to figure out, you know … one example was the message with something like 78 characters got women to book a mammogram, but a message with 155 characters did not. Two text messages were better than one for booking children’s vaccines. So some people are very excited about this. It’s getting people to do preventive care and routine care. And some people think this is just not the problem with health care, that it’s way deeper and more systemic and that this isn’t really going to move the needle. But it was an interesting piece.

Rovner: Any little thing helps.

Kenen: Right. This was an interesting piece.

Rovner: Margot.

Sanger-Katz: I wanted to talk about an article in KFF Health News from Taylor Sisk. The headline is “Life in a Rural ‘Ambulance Desert’ Means Sometimes Help Isn’t on the Way,” and it’s a really interesting exploration of some of the challenges of ambulance care in rural areas, which is a topic that is near and dear to my heart. Because when I was a reporter in New Hampshire covering rural health care delivery, I spent the better part of a year writing about ambulance services and the challenges there. And I think this story is highlighting a real challenge for people in these communities. And I think it’s also really a reminder that the ambulance system is this weird, off-to-the-side part of our health care system that I think is often not well integrated and not well thought of. It tends to be regulated as transportation, not as health care. It tends to be provided by local governments or by contractors hired by local governments as opposed to health care institutions. It tends to have a lot of difficulty with billing a very high degree of surprise billing for its patients, and also just a real lack of health services research about best practices for how fast ambulances should arrive, what level of care they should provide to people, and on and on. And I just think that it’s good that she’s highlighted this issue. And also, I think it is a reminder to me that ambulances are probably worth a little bit more attention from reporters overall.

Rovner: Well, my story is also something that’s near and dear to my heart because I’ve been covering it for a long time. It’s from my KFF Health News colleague Lauren Sausser. It’s called “Doctors and Patients Try to Shame Insurers Online to Reverse Prior Authorization Denials.” And it is a wonderful 2023 update to a fight that Joanne and I have been covering since, what, the late 1990s. It even includes comments from Dr. Linda Peeno, who testified about inappropriate insurance company care denials to Congress in 1996. I was actually at that hearing. The twist, of course, now is that while people who were wrongly denied care at the turn of the century needed to catch the attention of a journalist or picket in front of the insurance company’s headquarters. Today, an outrage post on Instagram or TikTok or X can often get things turned around much faster. On the other hand, it’s depressing that after more than a quarter of a century, patients are still being caught in the middle of appropriateness fights between doctors and insurance companies. Maybe prior authorization will be the next surprise medical bill fight in Congress. We shall see. All right. That is our show for the week. As always, if you enjoy the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left us a review; that helps other people find us, too. Special thanks, as always, to our amazing engineer, Francis Ying. Also, as always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org. Or you can tweet me or X me or whatever. I’m @jrovner, also on Bluesky and Threads. Joanne?

Kenen: I am also on Twitter, @JoanneKenen; and I’m on Threads, @joannekenen1; and Bluesky, JoanneKenen.

Rovner: Margot.

Sanger-Katz: I’m @sangerkatz.

Rovner: Victoria.

Knight: I’m @victoriaregisk on X and Threads.

Rovner: Well, we’re going to take a week off from the news next week, but watch your feed for a special episode. We will be back with our panel after Labor Day. Until then, be healthy.

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Julie Rovner is chief Washington correspondent and host of KFF Health News’ weekly health policy news podcast, “What the Health?” A noted expert on health policy issues, Julie is the author of the critically praised reference book “Health Care Politics and Policy A to Z,” now in its third edition.

A divided three-judge federal appeals court panel has ruled that a lower court was wrong to try to reverse entirely the FDA’s approval of the abortion drug mifepristone. The panel did find, however, that the agency violated regulatory rules in making the drug more easily available and that those rules should be rolled back. In practice, nothing changes immediately, because the Supreme Court has blocked the lower court’s order that the drug effectively be removed from the U.S. market — for now.

The case is pivotal for the future of reproductive health, as the pill is part of a regimen that is now the most common way American women terminate early pregnancies and is also widely used by doctors to manage miscarriages.

Meanwhile, as President Joe Biden’s Inflation Reduction Act turns one, Medicare officials are preparing to unveil which 10 drugs will be the first to face price negotiation under the new law.

This week’s panelists are Julie Rovner of KFF Health News, Shefali Luthra of The 19th, Sarah Karlin-Smith of the Pink Sheet, and Alice Miranda Ollstein of Politico.

Panelists

Shefali Luthra
The 19th

@shefalil

Read Shefali's stories

Sarah Karlin-Smith
Pink Sheet

@SarahKarlin

Read Sarah's stories

Alice Miranda Ollstein
Politico

@AliceOllstein

Read Alice's stories

Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:

• Wednesday’s federal appeals court decision siding with conservative medical groups challenging mifepristone regulations has perhaps the biggest implications for the drug’s distribution via telemedicine, which has been key to securing abortion access for people in areas where abortion is unavailable.
• The ongoing legal threat to mifepristone is reverberating through the drug industry, as drugmakers worry challenges to the FDA’s scientific authority could cause serious problems for future drug development — especially in an industry that takes big financial risks on getting products approved.
• Texas is suing Planned Parenthood over past Medicaid payments made to the program, charging that the health organization “defrauded” the state, even though the claims were made while a court had specifically allowed Planned Parenthood to remain in the program. Still, the lawsuit emphasizes just how far Texas has gone, and will go, to maintain the legal authority to not support Planned Parenthood, even in its non-abortion work.
• The federal government is expected to release the list of 10 pharmaceuticals subject to Medicare price negotiations by Sept. 1. The drugs’ identities are the subject of much educated speculation, as Congress laid out in the law how drugs qualify for consideration — though even stakeholders in the drug industry are wondering which specific drugs will be up for discussion.
• A national survey of pharmacists finds drug shortages are widespread and leading to rationing at the pharmacy level. A lack of incentives to produce generic drugs is complicating supply-chain problems, leaving fewer options when there are manufacturing or other types of issues with a particular drugmaker.

Plus, for “extra credit” the panelists suggest health policy stories they read this week that they think you should read, too:

Julie Rovner: Time’s “She Wasn’t Able to Get an Abortion. Now She’s a Mom. Soon She’ll Start 7th Grade,” by Charlotte Alter.

Sarah Karlin-Smith: MIT Technology Review’s “Microplastics Are Everywhere. What Does That Mean for Our Immune Systems”? by Jessica Hamzelou.

Shefali Luthra: The Atlantic’s “Right Price, Wrong Politics,” by Annie Lowrey.

Alice Miranda Ollstein: Politico’s “We’re on the Cusp of Another Psychedelic Era. But This Time Washington Is Along for the Ride,” by Erin Schumaker and Katherine Ellen Foley.

Also mentioned in this week’s episode:

• States Newsroom/The Georgia Recorder’s “Study Cited by Texas Judge in Abortion-Pill Case Under Investigation,” by Sofia Resnick.
• Stat’s “From Drug Shortages to High Prices, U.S. System’s Shortcomings Have Deep Roots,” by Matthew Herper.

Click to open the transcript

Transcript: Abortion Pill’s Legal Limbo Continues

KFF Health News’ ‘What the Health?’

Episode Title: Abortion Pill’s Legal Limbo Continues

Episode Number: 310

Published: Aug. 17, 2023

Julie Rovner: Hello and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Julie Rovner, chief Washington correspondent for KFF Health News. And I’m joined by some of the best and smartest health reporters in Washington. We’re taping this week on Thursday, Aug. 17, at 10 a.m. As always, news happens fast and things might have changed by the time you hear this. So here we go. We are joined today via video conference by Alice Miranda Ollstein of Politico.

Alice Miranda Ollstein: Good morning.

Rovner: Sarah Karlin-Smith of the Pink Sheet.

Sarah Karlin-Smith: Hi, everybody.

Rovner: And Shefali Luthra of The 19th.

Shefali Luthra: Hello.

Rovner: So, no interview this week but plenty of news, particularly for the middle of August, so we will get right to it. The breaking news this week is about abortion and about a Texas abortion case, because 2023. Technically, this news is out of New Orleans, where on Wednesday a three-judge panel of the 5th Circuit federal Court of Appeals upheld, in part, a lower-court decision from Texas that found that the FDA was wrong to approve the abortion pill mifepristone back in the year 2000. Before we get any further in this discussion, we should point out that this decision does not impact the immediate availability of abortion pills. The Supreme Court earlier this spring issued a stay of the lower-court ruling, meaning nothing will change until the full outcome of the case is determined, presumably by the Supreme Court at some point, probably next year. But, Alice, remind us of what this case was about and then what the decision means.

Ollstein: Yeah. So this case is: A coalition of different anti-abortion medical groups that formed last year, specifically formed in the district that a very conservative judge was in charge of down in Texas, brought the case there. And they are going after both the original FDA approval of mifepristone more than two decades ago and a bunch of decisions the agency has made since then to make the pills easier for patients to obtain, like allowing mail delivery, like allowing their use longer into pregnancy than before — 10 weeks versus seven weeks — allowing nonphysicians to prescribe the pills, a bunch of different things.

Rovner: And allowing for a lower dose of the pill actually.

Ollstein: Yes, yes.

Rovner: Which is going to get significant in a second. Go ahead.

Ollstein: Definitely. We should talk about the labeling chaos that could result from this. But so basically, the lower-court judge went all in, agreed with everything they said, essentially, and more or less ordered a national ban. That got stayed. It remains stayed for now, but the 5th Circuit has now weighed in and endorsed some but not all of those arguments. They said, look, the statute of limitations has passed us by on challenging the original FDA approval of the drugs, but they sided with the groups in ordering FDA to get rid of all of those other subsequent decisions. And so this, if upheld by the Supreme Court — we know the Biden administration is already planning to appeal — would really put the pills out of reach for a lot of people. So, it would be a sharp curtailment, but not the total ban the groups were seeking.

Rovner: Yeah, Shefali, and this was obviously what the appeals court had been leaning towards anyway. We know that because that was what they had done before the Supreme Court overruled it. And certainly we know that Justice [Samuel] Alito and I believe Justice [Clarence] Thomas would also do this. So, there’s every reason to believe that this could well be the final outcome. What would it mean? So, the pill would still be approved, but only in the form it was allowed to be distributed before 2016?

Luthra: Precisely, which would be quite significant. You mentioned, right, the need to relabel pills based on the different formulation. We would have pills technically only approved up until seven weeks of pregnancy, although doctors could prescribe them off-label, through 12 weeks in all likelihood. But the telemedicine implications are probably some of the biggest, especially in states where they’ve seen large numbers of out-of-state patients coming for abortion care, right, because they’re near states with bans. Those clinics have really relied on telemedicine because it means they can see more people, and it’s quite safe, right? It’s endorsed by the World Health Organization. You don’t need someone to come in for two, in some cases three visits to get a couple of pills and take them at home. And to lose that would really just cut capacity and make abortions, which are already very difficult to obtain, even in states where it’s legal but there just aren’t as many clinics — like a Kansas, a New Mexico, etc. — if not impossible, very nearly so, just because the math doesn’t work in terms of providers versus patients in need.

Rovner: And the piece of this that I really don’t understand, and I read through the entire decision yesterday afternoon, was they said that the plaintiffs in the case cannot challenge the approval of the generic version of the drug, which was approved in 2019. But of course, the generic version of the drug was approved under the then-rules that that are now going to be rolled back. So you would — would you have a case for the brand name and the generic would have different labeling requirements? It seems very confusing.

Luthra: I think there are a lot of questions that are still open about what this means, right, not only for mifepristone but just for the precedents of FDA approval of medications at large, especially as we’ve seen so many more FDA-approved drugs become more politicized. And, I mean, that’s one of the reasons that so many medical groups have expressed deep concern about this case. It just opens a tremendous can of worms looking well beyond abortion and puts us in pretty uncharted territory for what comes next.

Rovner: And the drug industry is kind of freaked out. Sarah, I guess you could talk to this. I mean, the reliability of FDA approval is now called into question if anybody can basically go to court and say, “Nope, FDA, you shouldn’t have done that,” and possibly win, right?

Karlin-Smith: Right. I mean, they don’t want the scientific sort of authority of the FDA questioned. And I think, you know, like a lot of hot-button political issues where there’s maybe not a good side for them to be on, the pharmaceutical companies tend to try and stay out of abortion politics as much as they can. But some executives and so forth did join amicus briefs in this case because they are concerned about the precedent of FDA approval decisions being able to be challenged in court. And if nothing else, I think drug companies really, and any business to an extent, relies on, like, certainty. And so just having the loss of that certainty that an FDA decision really means, what it means is problematic for them. But I think also these are companies that sort of are based in science and medicine and would definitely prefer to have the assurance that those are the people that approved their drugs and kind of give that seal of approval and it means what it says.

Rovner: Yeah, and the drug industry, I think more than many others, which depends on long shots a lot. I mean, there’s just a lot of dry holes in the drug industry; you spent a lot of time and a lot of money on a drug that ends up not going anywhere. So if you spend a lot of time and a lot of money on a drug that does what it’s supposed to do and gets approved, I think that that could certainly dampen the enthusiasm if then a court could come and say, “Oops, nope.”

Karlin-Smith: And the reputation we talk a lot about, like drug pricing, on this show — the reputation of the FDA and the perceived quality and trustworthiness of its decisions is kind of why the drug companies can charge, to some degree, the prices they charge for their medicines versus, say, you know, we compare it to the supplement industry, which is very loosely regulated, and their claims are not really backed up in the same way by science and medicine. And you can buy those for much cheaper at the store. So their whole business model is really threatened by this.

Rovner: Yeah.

Ollstein: And I think it’s worth noting that one of the three judges on the panel wanted to go further and fully strip FDA approval from the drug, but he was overruled by his other two colleagues. But still, he wrote that dissenting opinion. And that could come into play if and when the Supreme Court takes this up.

Rovner: And he, of course, raised the specter of the Comstock Act, that 1800s-era anti-vice law that apparently some anti-abortion groups are hoping to sort of bring back into the 21st century — Are we in the 22nd century? I’m losing track — and try to figure out if you can just make all of this illegal.

Ollstein: Yes. Judge [James] Ho, who was appointed by [then-President Donald] Trump to the 5th Circuit, and his opinion went a lot further than his colleagues’ in embracing the arguments made by the challengers. So how much influence that has on the process going forward will be really interesting. You know, the Comstock Act has to do with things sent through the mail, and the concern from a lot of legal experts and medical groups is that the interpretation that Judge Ho and these groups are making could mean that sending anything that could potentially be used for an abortion, even if it’s medical equipment that’s also used for other things, could be in jeopardy. And this would be mail delivery. Even sending something to a state where abortion is protected by law could be challenged under this federal rule. And so, we’re definitely in a “throw things at the wall and see what sticks” kind of era. And this is one of the things they’re throwing at the wall.

Rovner: Yeah, just because nothing changes for now doesn’t mean that nothing is going to change. And we will obviously keep a very close eye on this. So last week we talked about a controversy surrounding one of the scientific studies that [District] Judge [Matthew] Kacsmaryk, the lower-court judge, relied on in his ruling. The study was by the Charlotte Lozier Institute. It found that women who had medical abortions were more likely to go to a hospital emergency room within 30 days than women who had surgical procedures. And we talked about how that paper is currently under review by the publisher of the journal the paper appeared in. During the discussion, I apparently misspoke about the paper’s findings, suggesting that it was just the raw number of ER visits that rose along with increased use of medication abortion rather than the rate of the visits. But nonetheless, this study is very much an outlier in three decades of research into the safety of the drug. And I say three decades because it was available in Europe many years before it was available in the United States. And the drug has otherwise been found to have very few serious complications, right?

Luthra: Right. I think you’re absolutely correct, Julie. The study remains an outlier. There remain serious methodological questions about how it came to its findings. And we have an incredibly rich body of research that continues to grow, that shows exactly what you said, which is that the complication rate for medication abortions remains incredibly low. Most people do not require follow-up medical care, especially not in an emergency room. And the reliance on that study in particular was quite striking because of what an outlier it is in the larger medical body of research.

Rovner: And it didn’t actually come up in the appeals court ruling, although they did say, and fair point, they acknowledged that the complication, the serious complication rate, is very low. But if it’s being used by a lot of people and we now know that medication abortion is more than half of all abortions, a very small percentage of a whole lot of people is still a fair number of people. Whether that is enough people to actually create the kind of havoc in emergency rooms that’s been suggested is a different question. But I think that the appeals court justices were fairly careful in the way they worded that. So the mifepristone ruling was not the only news this week about a Texas abortion case. Another Texas abortion case in front of Judge Kacsmaryk in fact: He held a hearing earlier this week in a case brought by the state of Texas to require Planned Parenthood to pay back more than a billion dollars in Medicaid reimbursements, not for abortions, but for family planning and other medical services covered by Medicaid. This one is a weird case even by Texas standards, right?

Ollstein: Yeah, and I’ll say that they’re suing them for more than a billion dollars, but they were only paid by Medicaid in the lower millions. You know, 17-ish million is what Planned Parenthood told me. So, the 1.8 billion is for penalties and damages. They’re accusing them of defrauding the state. So, there has been a many-years’ fight over Planned Parenthood’s participation in Medicaid in Texas specifically, also in other states. Planned Parenthood says that, you know, because lower courts for years blocked the state’s attempt to kick them out of Medicaid, they were perfectly allowed to continue providing nonabortion services, like contraception, tests, whatever, and be reimbursed for that. And the state coming back later and saying that they knowingly defrauded the Medicaid program, they see it as a political attack on them and their ability to keep providing services in the state.

Rovner: There was a court stay on Texas’ desire to kick them out of the Medicaid program, right, so at least at the time it was legal for them to bill Medicaid, and Texas paid the Medicaid claims that they billed, right?

Luthra: I think it’s also helpful to situate this in just a really long history of Texas doing whatever it can to get Planned Parenthood away from government dollars, including turning down millions in federal funding, starting their own state health program for reproductive health, just so that they could have the legal authority to not include Planned Parenthood. This is not really new, but it just is so striking because of the money at stake, because of sort of the tactics, and because of the implications in a world where Planned Parenthood isn’t even providing abortions in Texas anymore.

Rovner: This goes back probably before some of you guys were born, the efforts to sort of defund Planned Parenthood from state and federal dollars, even in states where Planned Parenthood never provided abortions. And there are a number of states where they never provided abortions. But there is a line in the Medicaid statute itself about free choice of providers for patients, and that’s what has been relied on. Lower courts have relied on that for years and years. Congress tried to change it and couldn’t. Texas is actually, I think, the first state that’s ever successfully gotten a court ruling that said they can cut Planned Parenthood out of their Medicaid program. So, it was not odd for Planned Parenthood, while this litigation was going on, to say, “We’re just going to continue to provide women who come to us with family planning and other health care services that we’ve been providing under Medicaid for generations.” But now we’ll see what Judge Kacsmaryk has to say. And then I imagine this will get appealed and we will see where this one ends up, too. Well, finally this week in reproductive health, the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists announced the introduction of an online abortion training program, which has been a year in the making, that will give all OB-GYN residents, even in states with abortion bans, access to at least the basics in abortion care and in caring for early pregnancy loss, which is all often the same care. But I have to wonder whether this is going to make students any more willing to do their residencies in states that effectively restrict the rights to practice medicine according to evidence-based standards. I know we’ve talked about this before, but we’re looking at what could be a serious shortage of just women’s reproductive health care in general in abortion ban states, right, if the supply of students wanting to go there to do their residencies and hence stay on afterwards is going to start to dry up?

Ollstein: I mean, it’s already happening for sure. Applications are going down in these ban states. And, you know, when I saw the online curriculum, that’s better than nothing. But all the medical students and residents I’ve spoken to really stress that, in order to be trained and, for some specialties, board-certified, you need practical experience; you need to personally participate in many, many, many abortions to be fully qualified as a physician. And they really stress that the more you do, the more different complications you’re able to observe. And if you only do a few or none and just do online curriculum, you’re not going to be really prepared for a miscarriage situation or any of the many things that could come up in the future. And these could be life-or-death moments. And so to not have people trained and ready to respond in certain states where it’s already hard to recruit people because of, you know, it’s just seen as a less desirable place to be, this is yet another factor. On top of that, you have state attorneys general who have been very litigious and threatening to providers. And so, I’m hearing that that fear is making people not want to practice in particular states.

Luthra: And I think another factor that we don’t often sort of say out loud, but that’s really relevant when it comes to OB-GYNs in training, is that the majority of OB-GYNs are women. And given the age of when people finish medical school, etc., many of them are pursuing residency when they’re at a stage in their life where they might consider getting pregnant, which means that the risks are not just professional or educational; in many cases they are quite personal, and that’s a factor that many people are considering as well.

Rovner: And even the male OB-GYNs in training, many of them are married to women and, again, same age, thinking about, it’s time to start a family. Also, it’s not just the residents themselves, but the residents’ families. I’ve seen that sort of from both sides. We should point out, I mean, there are training programs now and they’re obviously — you know, it’s only been a year, so it’s hard to sort of create these things out of whole cloth — but where residents can travel to other states to get some hands-on experience and training that they want. But again, one of the things we forget sometimes about residents is they don’t earn a lot of money and it’s a disruption. I mean, it’s hard enough to move to a place to do your residency; to then have to sort of pick up and move someplace else for a couple of months to do a rotation is not terribly convenient either. So this is obviously still all being sorted out. But the education of sort of the next generation of reproductive health providers is definitely under question here, right?

Ollstein: And it’s not just the time needed; it’s often the money, because if these people are doing their residency at a public university hospital in a ban state, that public university hospital, under the state law, is afraid to give any money to support them going to another state for training. And so often people either have to apply for grants from foundations to cover that expense or even pay out of their own pockets. So, it’s a real heavy lift.

Rovner: It is. Well, in other news, and there is other news this week, President [Joe] Biden is taking a victory lap as the Inflation Reduction Act, that omnibus health-slash-energy-slash-tax bill, turns 1. But the fate of the highest-profile health policy in that law, calling for Medicare to negotiate the prices of some very expensive drugs, is still in some doubt, as drugmakers sue to try to block the program. Sarah, where is this, and when do we expect to get that list of the first 10 drugs the government wants to negotiate the price of? That’s due soon, right?

Karlin-Smith: Right. So the list is due by Sept. 1 at the latest. So that is a week, I think, from this Friday, or no, a little bit longer than that. But the expectation, I think, is we may get it before Sept. 1, because that’s the Friday before Labor Day weekend.

Rovner: Oh, I don’t know. They love to drop stuff the Friday before Labor Day.

Karlin-Smith: Sometimes they do, and sometimes they also want to take a break too. So, we’re expecting that list of 10 drugs, which would be — their negotiated prices would go into effect in 2026. There’s lots of reasonably well-educated guesses of what those drugs are, because the law sort of lays out how they select them and we have a general sense of how much money is spent on certain drugs in the U.S. and so forth. But Medicare has the most up-to-date data. So, there are still companies that kind of have a sense of, “Oh, I might be on the edge,” depending on how their sales have been in Medicare the past few years. So, people are really curious.

Rovner: Coincidentally or not so coincidentally, I’ve seen some of the speculation, and it is all of the drugs that you see all of those ads for, if you watch, if you still watch, you know, commercial television, on the news or on cable TV. I mean, there are so many ads, and it’s like, surprise, these are all the drugs that are on the likely list that Medicare is going to want to do something about the price of. I assume that is not a coincidence. I’m being snide.

Karlin-Smith: I think some of it is, right, to qualify for the list, you have to be in sort of the top spending categories. And part of that means you’re most likely to have to treat large populations of people. So when you get to drugs like that, like anticoagulants — I think there’s a few expected to be up there — blood thinners, some anti-diabetic medicines, trying to think of some of the other examples. These are kind of mass-market drugs that a lot of people, particularly in the Medicare population, need these medicines. Some cancer medicines, anti-inflammatory drugs. So, it’s not particularly surprising that you would see advertisements for them. And in a lot of cases, too, these are drugs that have some amount of brand competition for them. So, there are two newer blood thinners that might be on there. So, you know, that tends to lead to advertisement when there’s competition in a space. Same for the diabetes medicines and the anti-inflammatories; there’s a lot of expensive biologics in that space that compete.

Rovner: Well, when I’m in charge of the FDA, they’re not going to be able to use, like, songs from the ’60s and ’70s anymore, because that just makes me crazy. Well, meanwhile, in something related to this, drug shortages seem to be getting worse. There’s a new survey from the American Society of Health-System Pharmacists that found that 99% of the 1,100 hospital pharmacists that responded said they were currently managing drug shortages, and one-third said those shortages are forcing them to ration, delay, or cancel treatment. And these aren’t minor drugs. They include cancer chemotherapies, anesthesia drugs, other things that can be difficult to get but important when you need them. Sarah, is this a manufacturing problem, or a marketing problem, or both? I mean, why are drug shortages so much worse now? It’s not all supply chain, is it?

Karlin-Smith: There’s some supply chain, and I think there’s still some supply chain issues that started during covid that are still impacting people. There are manufacturing concerns, depending on the company. You know, drug shortages have gotten a lot of attention recently, but really for probably the past decade or so that I’ve been covering the drug industry and following shortages, the reasons have tended to be the same: They tend to be older, sterile, injectable drugs that are harder to make. But yet, because they have gone generic, the prices have gone down so low that players tend to leave. So only a few players stay in the market because of the pricing situation. So then if they have any manufacturing problem, it can very easily lead to a shortage. Generic companies argue that, you know, there’s just not a lot of incentive for them to invest in redundancy or certain even manufacturing capabilities that might help prevent shortages. So, for better or worse, there really hasn’t been a lot of change in the reasons for these shortages over the years; it’s just that they keep happening.

Rovner: Yeah, well, it’s funny. Matthew Herper over at Stat News has kind of a provocative piece about all of this, suggesting, as you say, that the shortages right now are, in large part, due to the incentives to find the cheapest generics, but that this new Medicare negotiation process — which includes a different clock; it will be based on time on the market rather than time under patent — could encourage drugmakers to do the opposite thing, to sit on new drugs until they can test for all possible uses because they don’t want to bring them to market until they think they can make the most money, because that’s going to determine how long before there can be competition. I mean, is this ever really going to work, being a purely capitalist market?

Karlin-Smith: I mean, there are definitely people, you know, in the shortage space that have argued that some of the current shortages make a good case for public manufacturing of drugs. And actually, it might surprise some people, but the U.S. has engaged in the past in public manufacturing. There are some efforts going on now, like in California; they’re looking into some public manufacturing. So that’s on the generic side. On some of the other situations that Matthew Herper is describing with the IRA, it’s a bit more complicated because essentially the IRA does give companies some amount of time on the market without negotiation. But a lot of drugs, they have all these multiple indications. And so companies are just trying to figure out potentially how they can game their products to make the most amount of money before they’re subject to negotiation. And I know Medicare is quite aware of some of this stuff and is thinking about how they can set up their regulations to protect against that. But not everything is within their control. So we’ll see what happens, because there is concern, you know, particularly I think in the orphan or rare disease space, that a company may delay getting a rare disease indication based on when they think they might get subject to drug negotiations.

Rovner: Every time you think, Oh, they can just lower the price of drugs, it’s super, super complicated. All right. Well, finally this week, there’s something I’ve been trying to get to for a couple of weeks: Before Congress left for the August recess, it passed, on a bipartisan vote, a bill that could finally dethrone UNOS, the United Network for Organ Sharing. UNOS has been the outside organization handling the collection and distribution of human organs for transplant since the federal government began the federal transplant program in 1984. Over the years, UNOS has been roundly criticized for its handling, or mishandling, of the system. But the legislation that originally created the federal organ transplant program had been interpreted not to allow anyone else to compete for the contract to run the network. So, this legislation changes that, for the first time letting other entities see if they can do a better job so maybe fewer people will die waiting for transplanted organs. This feels a lot more important than the attention that it got, I think because there was so much else happening as Congress was leaving town. Or does it feel important to me because I spent so many years and so many hours watching Congress fight over this?

Karlin-Smith: I think it is important. There’s certainly been a lot of big exposés of problems in the system over the years. And there’s also been a lot of, when I’ve covered this more closely in the past, like, tensions between different parts of the country in sort of figuring out how organs are allocated and which parts of regions get impacted or not. So there has always been, like, political dynamics here. I think the underlying thing to watch with this overhaul is that part of what goes on here is we just don’t have enough organs for the number of people that need it. So, you can certainly make improvements and make sure that all the organs we have get to people and get done in the fairest way possible, because there have been lots of concerns around equity issues, particularly that Black people and other people of different ethnicities have not been, you know, getting the organs they deserve. But the question becomes, you know, can anybody do anything about a shortage of organs, and how do you really handle that? I think there’s always going to be tensions on this topic if you don’t have enough organs.

Rovner: Yeah, these were the ultimate formula fights, if you will. You know, it’s usually over money. In the ’90s and early 2000s, it was literally over organs, over, you know, how far you could ship donated organs and whether the large transplant centers should keep more because they do more organ transplants and therefore are more likely to have success. And boy, this fight has been going on for a very long time, but this is at least a step, I think, towards resolving it. All right. Well, that is this week’s news. We will take a quick break and then we will come back and do our extra credit. Hey, “What the Health?” listeners, you already know that few things in health care are ever simple. So, if you like our show, I recommend you also listen to “Tradeoffs,” a podcast that goes even deeper into our costly, complicated, and often counterintuitive health care system, hosted by longtime health care journalist and friend Dan Gorenstein. “Tradeoffs” digs into the evidence and research data behind health care policies and tells the stories of real people impacted by decisions made in C-suites, doctor’s offices, and even Congress. You can subscribe to “Tradeoffs” wherever you get your podcasts. OK, we are back and it’s time for our extra credit segment. That’s when we each recommend a story we read this week we think you should read too. As always, don’t worry if you miss it; we will post the links on the podcast page at kffhealthnews.org and in our show notes on your phone or other mobile device. Shefali, why don’t you go first this week?

Luthra: My piece is from The Atlantic, by Annie Lowrey. The headline is “Right Price, Wrong Politics.” It is incredibly smart. It is about how there is all this conversation about people wanting to move to states where they have access to health care protected, whether that is abortion or gender-affirming care, etc., etc. There is one problem, which is that those states are largely ones where it is much more expensive to live, because of housing prices. And if you want to live in a place where you can afford a home, those are often the states with restrictions on health care. I love this piece. I think there is so much conversation about, Why don’t people simply move to a place where state laws reflect what they would like? And the answer is it’s really not attainable for most people. And I think she does a great job of explaining why that is and putting it in the context of policy choices and not just sort of individual human elements.

Rovner: I was super jealous of this piece. It was like, Oh, yeah, of course. Alice.

Ollstein: I chose a piece by a couple of my colleagues, and it’s called “We’re on the Cusp of Another Psychedelic Era. But This Time Washington Is Along for the Ride.” And it’s about how much bipartisan support there is in Congress right now for making psychedelics more available as medicine to treat things like PTSD [post-traumatic stress disorder] or depression. There are just a lot more clinical trials going on right now and just support for making them available through the VA [Department of Veterans Affairs] as sort of a test of how a broader population might respond. You know, we’re talking about things like psilocybin, things like ketamine, things like ecstasy, that have shown a lot of promise in having a therapeutic benefit for mental health conditions that have resisted other forms of treatment. So, fascinating stuff.

Rovner: It is. Sarah.

Karlin-Smith: I took a look at a piece in MIT Tech Review called “Microplastics Are Everywhere. What Does That Mean for Our Immune Systems?” And it just does a good job of helping you understand what the research has shown about how these very tiny particles may impact your immune cells and then impact our ability to fight off diseases and maybe even lead to more challenges with antibiotics and antibiotic resistance. And I’ve been fascinated by all the coverage of this, because this — huge problem and, you know, they talk about them being in our air and in the deepest part of the ocean. And, you know, it’s just one of those things that we have to kind of grapple with as a society, like health, economic consequences, and so forth. So, it’s worth looking at.

Rovner: More things to keep us awake at night.

Karlin-Smith: Exactly.

Karlin-Smith: A list of more things to keep us awake at night. My story this week is one of the most talked about on social media. It’s from Time, and it’s called “She Wasn’t Able to Get an Abortion. Now She’s a Mom. Soon She’ll Start 7th Grade,” by Charlotte Alter. And as the headline indicates, it’s kind of a gutting piece about a 12-year-old in Mississippi who was raped in her own yard, was too scared to tell anyone, and ended up having a baby at age 13. It’s another story about all those things that are, quote, “made up,” or not supposed to happen. Except they did. She might have been eligible for a rape exception, except there are no abortion providers left in the state, and her mother didn’t know that rape exceptions were a possibility. In the end, the closest place for her to have gotten an abortion was Chicago, which was too far and too expensive for her family. So now she has a son while she’s going to middle school. I’m sure we will see more of these as time progresses. All right. That is our show for this week. As always, if you enjoy the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left us a review; that helps other people find us too. Special thanks, as always, to our amazing engineer, Francis Ying. And as always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org. Or you can tweet me or X me or whatever. I’m still there, @jrovner, also on Bluesky and Threads. Shefali?

Luthra: I’m @shefalil.

Rovner: Alice.

Ollstein: @AliceOllstein.

Rovner: Sarah.

Karlin-Smith: I’m @SarahKarlin or @sarahkarlin-smith.

Rovner: We will be back in your feed next week. Until then, be healthy.

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Julie Rovner is chief Washington correspondent and host of KFF Health News’ weekly health policy news podcast, “What the Health?” A noted expert on health policy issues, Julie is the author of the critically praised reference book “Health Care Politics and Policy A to Z,” now in its third edition.

Ohio voters — in a rare August election — turned out in unexpectedly high numbers to defeat a ballot measure that would have made it harder to pass an abortion-rights constitutional amendment on the ballot in November. The election was almost a year to the day after Kansas voters also stunned observers by supporting abortion rights in a ballot measure.

Meanwhile, the percentage of Americans without health insurance dropped to an all-time low of 7.7% in early 2023, reported the Department of Health and Human Services. But that’s not likely to continue, as states boot from the Medicaid program millions of people who received coverage under special eligibility rules during the pandemic.

This week’s panelists are Julie Rovner of KFF Health News, Emmarie Huetteman of KFF Health News, Joanne Kenen of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico, and Rachel Roubein of The Washington Post.

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Emmarie Huetteman
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Joanne Kenen
Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico

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Rachel Roubein
The Washington Post

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Read Rachel's stories

Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:

• It should not have come as much of a surprise that Ohio voters sided with abortion-rights advocates. Abortion rights so far have prevailed in every state that has considered a related ballot measure since the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade, including in politically conservative states like Kentucky and Montana.
• Moderate Republicans and independents joined Democrats in defeating the Ohio ballot question. Opponents of the measure — which would have increased the threshold of votes needed to approve state constitutional amendments to 60% from a simple majority — had not only cited its ramifications for the upcoming vote on statewide abortion access, but also for other issues, like raising the minimum wage.
• A Texas case about exceptions under the state’s abortion ban awaits the input of the state’s Supreme Court. But the painful personal experiences shared by the plaintiffs — notable in part because such private stories were once scarce in public discourse — pressed abortion opponents to address the consequences for women, not fetuses.
• The uninsured rate hit a record low earlier this year, a milestone that has since been washed away by states’ efforts to strip newly ineligible Medicaid beneficiaries from their rolls as the covid-19 public health emergency ended.
• The promise of diabetes drugs to assist in weight loss has attracted plenty of attention, yet with their high price tags and coverage issues, one thorny obstacle to access remains: How could we, individually and as a society, afford this?
• Lawmakers are asking more questions about the nature of nonprofit, or tax-exempt, hospitals and the care they provide to their communities. But they still face an uphill battle in challenging the powerful hospital industry.

Also this week, Rovner interviews Kate McEvoy, executive director of the National Association of Medicaid Directors, about how the “Medicaid unwinding” is going as millions have their eligibility for coverage rechecked.

Plus, for “extra credit” the panelists suggest health policy stories they read this week that they think you should read, too:

Julie Rovner: KFF Health News’ “How the Texas Trial Changed the Story of Abortion Rights in America,” by Sarah Varney.

Joanne Kenen: Fox News’ “Male Health Care Leaders Complete ‘Simulated Breastfeeding Challenge’ at Texas Hospital: ‘Huge Eye-Opener’,” by Melissa Rudy.

Rachel Roubein: Stat’s “From Windows to Wall Art, Hospitals Use Virtual Reality to Design More Inclusive Rooms for Kids,” by Mohana Ravindranath.

Emmarie Huetteman: KFF Health News’ “The NIH Ices a Research Project. Is It Self-Censorship?” by Darius Tahir.

Also mentioned in this week’s episode:

• Politico’s “Abortion Rights Won Big in Ohio. Here’s Why It Wasn’t Particularly Close,” by Madison Fernandez, Alice Miranda Ollstein, and Zach Montellaro.
• KFF Health News’ “Seeking Medicare Coverage for Weight Loss Drugs, Pharma Giant Courts Black Influencers,” by Rachana Pradhan.
• Stat’s “Alarmed by Popularity of Ozempic and Wegovy, Insurers Wage Multi-Front Battle,” by Elaine Chen.

click to open the transcript

Transcript: On Abortion Rights, Ohio Is the New Kansas

KFF Health News’ ‘What the Health?’Episode Title: On Abortion Rights, Ohio Is the New KansasEpisode Number: 309Published: Aug. 10, 2023

[Editor’s note: This transcript, generated using transcription software, has been edited for style and clarity.]

Julie Rovner: Hello and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Julie Rovner, chief Washington correspondent for KFF Health News, and I’m joined by some of the best and smartest health reporters in Washington. We’re taping a day early this week, on Wednesday, Aug. 9, at 3:30 p.m. As always, news happens fast, and things might have changed by the time you hear this. So here we go. We are joined today via video conference by Joanne Kenen of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico.

Joanne Kenen: Hey, everybody.

Rovner: Rachel Roubein of The Washington Post.

Rachel Roubein: Hi, everybody.

Rovner: And my colleague and editor here at KFF Health News Emmarie Huetteman.

Emmarie Huetteman: Hey, everyone. Glad to be here.

Rovner: So later in this episode, we’ll have my interview with Kate McEvoy, executive director of the National Association of Medicaid Directors. She’s got her pulse on how that big post-public health emergency “Medicaid unwinding” is going. And she’ll share some of that with us. But first, this week’s news. I guess the biggest news of the week is out of Ohio, which, in almost a rerun of what happened in Kansas almost exactly a year ago, voters soundly defeated a ballot issue that would have made it harder for other voters this fall to reverse the legislature’s strict abortion ban. If you’re having trouble following that, so did they in Ohio. [laughs] This time, the fact that the abortion rights side won wasn’t as much of a surprise because every statewide abortion ballot question has gone for the abortion rights side since Roe v. Wade was overturned last year. What do we take away from Ohio? Other than it looked a lot like … the split looked a lot like Kansas. It was almost 60-40.

Kenen: It shows that there’s a coalition around this issue that is bigger than Democrat or Republican. Ohio was the classic swing state that has turned into a conservative Republican-voting state — not on this issue. This was clearly independents, moderate Republicans joined Democrats to … 60-40, roughly, is a pretty big win. Yes, we’ve seen it in other states. It’s still a pretty big win.

Roubein: I agree. And I think one of my colleagues, Patrick Marley, and I spent some time just driving around and traveling Ohio in July. And one of the things that we did find is that — this ballot measure to increase the threshold for constitutional amendments is 60% — it had in some, in many, ways turned into a proxy war over abortion. But, in some ways, both sides also didn’t talk about abortion when they were, you know, canvassing different voters. You know, they use different tools in the toolbox. I was following around someone from Ohio Right to Life and, you know, he very much said, “Abortion is the major issue to me.” But, you know, they tried to kind of bring together the side that supported this. Other issues like legalizing marijuana and raising the minimum wage, and, you know, the abortion rights side was very much a part of, you know, the opposition here. But when some canvassers went out — my colleague Patrick had traveled and followed some, and some, you know, kind of focused on other issues like, you know, voters having a voice in policy and keeping a simple majority rule.

Rovner: Yeah, I think it’s important — for those who have not been following this as closely as we have — what the ballot measure was was to make future ballot measures — and they said they were not going to have them in August anymore, which, this was the last one — in order to amend the constitution by referendum, you would need a 60% majority rather than a 50% majority. And just coincidentally, there is an abortion ballot measure on Ohio’s ballot for November, and it’s polling at about 58%. But, yes, this would have applied to everything, and it was defeated.

Kenen: And it’s part of a larger trend. It began before the overturning of Roe v. Wade. Over the last couple of years, you’ve seen conservative states move to tighten these rules for ballot initiatives. And that’s because more liberal positions have been winning. I mean, Medicaid, the Medicaid expansion on the ballot, has won, and won big. Only one was even close …

Rovner: In very red states!

Kenen: They often won very big in a number of very, very conservative states, places like Idaho and Nebraska. So, you know, there’s always been … the conventional wisdom is that, you know, the political parties are more extreme than many voters, that the Democratic Party is for the left and the Republican Party is for the right. And there are a lot of people who identify with one party or the other but aren’t … who are more moderate or, in this case, more liberal on Medicaid. And Medicaid … what was it, seven states? I think it’s seven. Seven really conservative states. And then the abortion has won in every single state. And there’s a little bit of conversation and it’s … very early. And I don’t know if it’s going to go anywhere, but if I’ve heard it and written a bit about it, conservative lawmakers have heard about it, too, which is there are groups interested in trying to get some gun safety initiatives on ballots. So that’s complicated. And it may not happen. But they’re seeing, I mean, that’s the classic example of both a criminal justice and a public health issue — so we can talk about it — a classic example where the country is much more in the center.

Rovner: Well, let us move to Texas, because that’s where we always end up when we talk about abortion. You may remember that lawsuit where several women who nearly died from pregnancy complications sued the state to clarify when medical personnel are able to intercede without being subjected to fines and/or jail sentences. Well, the women won, at least for a couple of days. A Texas district judge who heard the case ruled in their favor, temporarily blocking the Texas ban for women with pregnancy complications. But then the state appealed, and a Texas appeals court blocked the lower-court judge’s blocking of part of the ban. If you didn’t follow that, it just means that legally nothing has changed in Texas. And now the case goes to the Texas Supreme Court, which has a conservative majority. So we pretty much know what’s going to happen. But whether these women ultimately win or lose their case may not be the most important thing. And, to explain why I’m going to do my extra credit early this week. It’s by my KFF Health News colleague Sarah Varney. It’s called “How the Texas Trial Changed the Story of Abortion Rights in America.” She writes that this trial was particularly significant because it put abortion foes on the defensive by graphically depicting harm to women of abortion bans — rather than to fetuses. And it’s also about the power of people publicly telling their stories. I’ve done a lot of stories over the years about women whose very wanted pregnancies went very wrong, very late. And, I have to tell you, it’s been hard to find these women. And when you find them, it’s been really hard to get them to talk to a journalist. So, the fact that we’re seeing more and more people actually come out publicly, you know, may do for this issue what, you know, perhaps what gay rights, you know, what people coming out as gay did for gay marriage? I don’t know. What do you guys think?

Kenen: Well, I think these stories have been really compelling, but they’re also, they’re the most dramatic and maybe easiest to push back. But it’s, you know, there’s a whole lot of other reasons women want abortions. And the focus — and it’s life and death, so the focus, quite rightfully, has to be on these really extreme cases. But that’s not … it’s still in some ways shifting attention from the larger political discussion about choice and rights. But, clearly, some of these states, we’ve seen so many stories of women who, their lives are at stake, their doctors know it, and they just don’t think they have the legal power; they’re afraid of the consequences if they’re second-guessed. There are tremendous financial and imprisonment [risks] for a doctor who is deemed to have done an unnecessary abortion. And this idea that’s taken hold … among some conservatives is that there’s never a need for a medical abortion. And that’s just not true.

Rovner: And yet, I mean, what this trial and a lot of things in Sarah’s piece too point out is that that line between miscarriage and abortion is really kind of fuzzy in a lot of cases. You know, if you go to the hospital with a miscarriage and they’re going to say, “Well, did you initiate this miscarriage?” And we’ve seen women thrown in jail before for losing pregnancies, with them saying, “You know, you threw yourself down the stairs to end this pregnancy.” That actually happened, I think it was in Indiana. So this is —

Kenen: And miscarriage is very common.

Rovner: That was what I was saying.

Kenen: Early miscarriage is very common. Very, very common.

Huetteman: One of the things that’s so striking about the past year, since Dobbs overturned Roe v. Wade ,is that we’ve seen this kind of national education about what pregnancy is and how dangerous it can be and how care needs to really be flexible to meet those sorts of challenges. And this actually got me thinking about something that another familiar voice on this podcast, Alice Miranda Ollstein, and some colleagues wrote this morning about the Ohio outcome, which is they pointed out that the anti-abortion movement really hasn’t evolved in terms of the arguments that they’re making in the past year about why abortion should continue to be less and less available. Meanwhile, we’ve got these, like, really incredible, really emotional, moving stories from women who have experienced this firsthand. And that’s a hard message to overcome when you’re trying to reach voters in particular.

Rovner: And it’s interesting; both sides like to take — you know, they all go to the hardest cases. So, for years and years, the anti-abortion side has, you know, has gone to the hardest cases. And that’s why they talk about abortion in the ninth month up till birth, which isn’t a thing, but they talk about it. And you know, now the abortion rights side has some hard cases now that abortions are harder to get. Well, while we are on the subject of Texas lawsuits, States Newsroom — and thank you for sending this my way, Joanne — has a story reporting that the publisher of the scientific paper that both the lower court judge and the appeals court judges used to conclude that the abortion drug mifepristone causes frequent complications — it does not — is being reviewed for potential scientific misconduct. The paper comes from the Charlotte Lozier Institute, which is the research arm of the anti-abortion group the Susan B. Anthony List. Sage, which is the publisher of the journal that the paper appeared in, has posted something called an expression of concern, saying that the publisher and editor, quote, “were alerted to potential issues regarding the representation of data in the article and author conflicts of interest. SAGE has contacted the authors of this article and an investigation is underway.” This was sort of a whistleblower by a pharmacist who looked at the way the data in this paper was put together and says, “No, that’s really very misleading.” I don’t think I’ve ever seen this, though; I’ve never seen a scientific paper that’s now being questioned for its political bent, a peer-reviewed scientific paper. I mean, this could change a lot of things, couldn’t it?

Kenen: Well, not if people decide that they still think it’s true. I mean, look at — you know, the vaccine autism paper was retracted. That wasn’t initially political. It’s become more political over the years; it wasn’t political at the time. That was retracted. And people have been jumping up and down screaming, “It was retracted! It was retracted!” And, you know, millions of people still believe it. So, I mean, legally, I’m not sure how much it changes. I mean, I thought we had all heard that there were flaws in this study. This article was good because I hadn’t been aware of how deeply flawed and in all the many ways it was flawed. And also the whistleblower yarn was interesting. I’m not sure how much it changes anything.

Rovner: Well, I’m thinking not in terms of this case. And by the way, I think we didn’t say this, that the study was of emergency room visits by women who’d had either surgical or medical abortions. And the contention was that medical abortions were more dangerous than surgical abortions because more women ended up in the emergency room. But as several people have pointed out, more people ended up in the emergency room after medical abortions because there have been so many more medical abortions over the years. I mean, you don’t actually have to be a data scientist to see some of the problems.

Kenen: Right. And some of them also weren’t that — really, were nervous, and they didn’t know what was normal and they went to the ER because they were scared and they really were safe. They were not — they didn’t need — you know, they just weren’t sure how much pain and discomfort or bleeding you’re supposed to have. And they went and they were reassured and were sent home. So it’s not even that they really had a medical emergency or that they were harmed.

Rovner: Or that they had a complication.

Kenen: Right. There were many flaws pointed out with this research.

Rovner: But my broader question is, I mean, if people are going to start questioning the politics of scientific papers, I mean, I could see the other side going after this.

Kenen: Well, there’s climate science, too, that’s bad. I mean, I don’t think this is actually unique. I think it’s egregious. But there were studies minimizing the risk of smoking, which was also a political business, commercial. Climate is certainly political. I mean, I think this is sort of the most politicized and most acute example, but I don’t think it’s the only one.

Roubein: And I think, Julie, as you’d mentioned, I think when [U.S. District Judge] Matthew Kacsmaryk in Texas came down with his decision — you know, for instance, there are media outlets — that my colleagues at the Post did a story just kind of unpacking some of the kind of flaws and some of the studies that were used to make, you know, a court decision.

Rovner: Yeah, to give the judge what he assumes to be evidence that this is a dangerous drug. So it’s — yeah.

Kenen: Which he came in believing, we know, from the profiles of him and his background.

Rovner: Right. All right, well, let us move on. The official Census Bureau estimate of how many people lack health insurance won’t be out until next month. But the Department of Health and Human Services is out with a report based on that other big federal population survey that shows the uninsured rate early this year was at its lowest level since records started being kept, which I think was in the 1980s: 7.7%. Now, that’s clearly going to be the high point for the fewest number of people uninsured, at least for a while, because clearly not all of the millions of people who are losing or about to lose their Medicaid coverage are going to end up with other insurance. But I remember — Joanne, you will, too — when the rate was closer to 18% … was a huge news story, and the thing that triggered the whole health reform debate in the first place. I’m surprised that there’s been so little attention paid to this.

Kenen: Because, you know … [unintelligible] … it’s so yesterday. And also, as you alluded to, you know, we’re in the middle of the Medicaid unwinding. So the numbers are going up again now. And we don’t know. We know that it’s a couple of million people. I think 3 million might be the last —

Rovner: I think it’s 4 [million], it’s up to 4.

Kenen: Four, OK. And some of them will get covered again and some of them will find other sources of coverage. But right now, there’s an uptick, not a downtick.

Roubein: And I think when you look at just, like, estimates of what the insured and the uninsured rates would be in 2030, like, the CMS’ [Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services] analysis, one of the other questions is, you know, whether the enhanced Obamacare subsidies continue past 2025. So there’s Medicaid and then there’s also some other kind of question marks and cliffs coming up on how and whether it will fluctuate.

Rovner: No, it’s worth watching. And remember, when the census numbers come out, those will be for 2022. Well, moving on, we have two stories this week looking at the potential cost of those breakthrough obesity drugs, but through two very different lenses. One is from my KFF Health News colleague Rachana Pradhan, details how the makers of the current “it” drug, Ozempic, which is Novo Nordisk, in an effort to get the votes to lift the Medicare payment ban on weight loss drugs, is quietly contributing large amounts of money to groups like the Congressional Black Caucus Foundation and the Congressional Hispanic Caucus Institute. It’s sort of a backdoor lobbying that’s pretty age-old, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t work. The other story, by Elaine Chen at Stat, looks at how health insurers are pushing back hard against the off-label use of diabetes medications that also work to help people lose weight. They’re doing things like allowing the more expensive weight loss drugs only if people have tried and failed other methods or disallowing them if the other methods had been slightly successful. So, if you take a lesser drug and you lose enough weight, they won’t let you take the better drug because, look, you lost weight on the other drug. We’ve talked about this, obviously, before: These drugs, on the one hand, have the potential to make a lot of people both healthier and happier. There’s a study out this week that shows that Mounjaro, the Eli Lilly drug, actually reduces heart disease by 20%.

Kenen: In people who have heart disease.

Rovner: Right, in people who have heart disease.

Kenen: It’s not lowering everybody’s risk.

Rovner: But still, I mean, everybody’s — well, I mean, there are medical indications for using these drugs for weight loss. But if everybody who wants them could get them, it would literally break the bank. Nobody can afford to give everybody who’s eligible for these drugs these drugs. Is the winner here going to be the side with the most effective lobbying, or is that too cynical?

Huetteman: Isn’t that always the winner? Speaking of cynical.

Rovner: Yeah, in health care.

Kenen: Well, I mean, I also think there’s questions about, like, these drugs clearly are really wonderful for people who they were designed for; you don’t have to be on insulin. They’re having not just weight loss and diabetes. There are apparently cardiac and other — you know, these are probably really good drugs. But there are a lot of people who do not have diabetes or heart disease who want them because they want to lose 20 pounds. And some of them are being told you have to take it for the rest of your life. I mean, I just know this anecdotally, and I’m sure we all know it anecdotally.

Rovner: Right. It’s like statins.

Kenen: Yes.

Rovner: Or blood pressure medication. If you stop taking your blood pressure medication, your blood pressure goes back up.

Kenen: Right. So, I mean, should the goal for the weight loss be, “OK, this is going to help you take off that weight and then you’re going to have to maintain it through diet and exercise and healthy lifestyle,” blah, blah, blah, which is hard for people. We know that. Or are we putting healthy people on a really expensive drug that changes an awful lot of things about their body indefinitely? We don’t have safety data for lifelong use in otherwise healthy people. So, you know, I’m always a little worried because even the best clinical trial is small compared to the entire — it’s small and it’s time-limited. And maybe these drugs are going to turn out to be absolutely phenomenal and we’re going to all live another 20 healthy years. But maybe not, you know. Or maybe they’re going to be really great for a certain subpopulation, but, you know, we’re not going to want to put it in the water supply. So, I still think that there’s this sort of pell-mell rush. And I think it’s partly because there’s a lot of money at stake. And it’s also, like, most people who are overweight have tried to lose it, and it’s very difficult to lose and maintain weight. So, you know, people want an easier way to do it. And I think the other thing is right now it’s an injection. There are side effects for some people on discomfort. There probably will be an oral version, a pill, sometime fairly soon, which will open — you know, there are people who don’t want to take a shot who would take a pill. It also means you might be able to tell — I mean, I don’t know the science of the pills, but it would make sense to me that you could take a lower dose, you know, maybe ease into it without the side effects, or could you stay on it longer with fewer problems? I mean, we’re just the very beginning of this, but it’s a huge amount of money.

Rovner: Yeah. You could see — I mean, my big question, though, is why can’t we force the drugmakers to lower the price? That would, if not solve the problem, make it a lot better. I mean, really, we’re going to have to wait until there is generic competition?

Kenen: It’s not just this.

Rovner: Yeah.

Kenen: I mean, it’s all sorts of cancer treatments and it’s hepatitis treatments. And it’s, I mean, there’s a lot of expensive drugs out there. So, this one just has a lot of demand because it makes you skinny.

Rovner: Well, that was the thing. We went through this with the hepatitis C drugs, which were really super expensive. It’s much more like that.

Kenen: Well, they seemed super expensive at the time —

Rovner: Not so much anymore.

Kenen: — but maybe for a thousand dollars, in retrospect.

Rovner: All right. Well, let’s move on. So, speaking of powerful lobbies, let’s talk about hospitals. Iowa Republican Sen. Chuck Grassley and Massachusetts Democrat Elizabeth Warren — now, there is an unlikely couple — are among those asking the IRS to more carefully examine tax-exempt hospitals to make sure they’re actually benefiting the community in exchange for not paying taxes, which is supposed to be the deal. Now, Sen. Grassley has been on this particular hobbyhorse for many, many years, I think probably more than 20, but not much ever seems to come of this. I can’t tell you how many workshops I’ve been to on, you know, how to measure community benefits that tax-exempt hospitals are providing. Any inkling that this time is going to be any different?

Roubein: Well, hospitals don’t tend to be sort of the losers. They try and kind of frame themselves as, like, “We’re your sort of friendly neighborhood hospital,” and every — I mean, every congressman, most congressmen have, you know, hospitals in their district. So they they get lobbied a lot, though, you know — I mean, this is a different issue, but particularly on the House side, hospitals are facing site-neutral payments, which if that actually went through Congress would be a loss. So yeah, but lawmakers have found it in general hard to take on the hospital industry.

Rovner: Yeah, very much so.

Kenen: Yeah. I mean, I think that we think of nonprofits and for-profits as, they’re different, but they’re not as different as we think they are, in that, you know, nonprofits are getting a tax break and they have to reinvest their profits. But it doesn’t mean they’re not making a lot of money. Some of them are. I mean, some of them have, you know, we’ve all walked into fancy nonprofits with, you know, fancy art and marble floors and so on and so forth. And we’ve all been in nonprofits that are barely keeping their doors open. So it’s your tax status. It’s not really, you know, your ethical status or the quality of care. I mean, there’s good nonprofits, there’s good for-profits. You know, this whole thing is like, if I were a hospital, I would be getting this huge tax break, and what am I doing to deserve it? And that’s the question.

Rovner: And I think the argument is, you know, that the 7.7% uninsured we were talking about, that hospitals are supposed to be providing care as part of their community benefit that the federal government now is ending up paying for. I think that’s sort of the frustration. If nonprofit hospitals were doing what they were supposed to do, it would cost federal and state governments less money, which always surprises me because this is not gone after more. I mean, Grassley has spent his whole career working on various types of government fraud. So this is totally in line for him. But it’s never just seemed to be a big priority for any administration.

Huetteman: There’s a little bit of an X factor here. Look at the fact that Grassley and Warren are talking about this publicly now. Maybe I’m just really optimistic from all the journalism we’ve been doing about projects like “Bill of the Month.” But the reality is that a lot of people are now seeing reporting that’s showing to them what nonprofit hospitals are actually doing when it comes to pursuing patients who don’t pay bills. And what it means to have community benefit comes into question a lot when you talk about wage garnishment, suing patients who are low-income for their medical debt. These are things that journalists have uncovered over and over again, happening at — ding, ding, ding — nonprofit hospitals. It’s harder to argue that hospitals are just doing their best for people when you have these stories of poor people who are losing their homes over unpaid medical bills, for instance. And I think that right now, when we’re in this political moment where health care costs are so, so potent to people and so important, I mean, could we see that this will actually be more effective, that we’re heading towards something that’s more effective? Maybe.

Rovner: Well, repeats the journalist, as we all are, the power of storytelling. Definitely the public is primed. I imagine that’s why they’re doing it now. We’ll see what comes of it.

Kenen: think the public is primed for bad practices. I’m not sure how many patients understand if the hospital they go to is a nonprofit or a for-profit. I think the public understands that everything in health care costs too much and that there are bad actors and greed. There’s a difference between profit and greed, and I think many people would say that we’re now in an era of greed. And not everybody in the health care sector — before anybody calls us up and shouts, “Not everybody who provides care is greedy” — but we’ve seen, you know, it is clearly out there. You know, you had Zeke Emanuel on a couple of weeks ago. Remember what he said, that, you know, 10 years ago, some people still liked their health care and now nobody likes their health care, rich or poor.

Rovner: Yeah, he’s right. All right. Well, that is this week’s news. Now, we’ll play my interview with Kate McEvoy of the National Association of Medicaid Directors about how the Medicaid unwinding is going. And one note before you listen: Kate frequently refers to the federal CMCS, which is not a misspeak; it stands for the Center for Medicaid and CHIP Services, which is the branch of CMS, the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services, that deals with Medicaid. So, here’s the interview:

I am pleased to welcome to the podcast Kate McEvoy, executive director of the National Association of Medicaid Directors, which is pretty much exactly what the name says, a group where state Medicaid officials can share information and ideas. Kate, welcome to “What the Health?”

Kate McEvoy: Good afternoon. Thanks for having me.

Rovner: Obviously, the Medicaid unwinding, which we have talked about a lot on the podcast, is Topic A for your members right now. Remind us again which Medicaid recipients are having their coverage eligibility rechecked? It’s not just those in the expansion group from the Affordable Care Act, right?

McEvoy: It’s not, no. Each and every person served by the country nationwide has to be reevaluated from an eligibility standpoint this year.

Rovner: What do we know about how it’s going? We’re seeing lots of reports that suggest the vast majority of people losing coverage are for paperwork reasons, not because they’ve been found to be no longer eligible. I know you recently surveyed your members. What are they telling you about this?

McEvoy: So, I first want to say this is an unprecedented task and it’s obviously historically significant for everyone served by the program. The volume of the work, and also the complexity, makes it a challenging task for all states and territories. But what we are seeing to date is a few things. First, we have seen an incredible effort on the part of states and territories to saturate really every means of communicating with their membership, really getting out that message around connecting with the programs, especially if an individual has moved during the period of the pandemic, which is very typical for people served by Medicaid. So that saturation of messaging and use of new means of connecting with people, like texting, really does represent a tremendous advance for the Medicaid program that has traditionally relied on a lot of complex, formal, legal notices to people. So that seems like a very positive thing. What we are seeing, and this is not unexpected, is that, you know, for reasons related to complex life circumstances and competing considerations, many people are not responding to those notices, no matter how we are transmitting those messages. And so that is a piece that is of great interest and concern to all of us, notably Medicaid directors wanting to make sure that eligible folks do not lose coverage simply because they are not responsive to the requests for more information. So we’re at a point where we’re beyond that initial push around messaging and now are really focused on means of protecting people who remain eligible, either through automatic review of their eligibility — the ex parte process — or by restoring them through such means as reconsideration. That’s really the main focus right now.

Rovner: And there’s that 90-day reconsideration window. Is that … how does that work?

McEvoy: So the federal law gives this period of 90 days to families and children within which they can be renewed with very little effort, essentially removing the responsibility to complete a new application. We also have long-standing help to people called “presumptive eligibility.” So if someone goes to a federally qualified health center or, more unfortunately, goes to the hospital, many of those types of providers can restore someone’s eligibility. So those are important protective pieces. We also know from the survey that you mentioned of our membership that many states and territories are extending those reconsideration protections to all coverage groups — also including older adults and people with disabilities.

Rovner: So are there any states that are doing anything that’s different and innovative? I remember when CHIP [the federal Children’s Health Insurance Program] was being stood up — and boy, that was a long time ago, like 1999 — South Carolina put flyers in pizza boxes, and some other state put flyers in sneaker boxes for back-to-school stuff. Are there better ways to maybe get ahold of these people?

McEvoy: So I think the answer is: a lot of different channels. Our colleagues in Louisiana have a partnership with Family Dollar stores to essentially feature this information on receipts. There’s a lot of work at pharmacy counters. Some of the big chain pharmacies have QR codes and other means of prompting people around their Medicaid eligibility. There’s going to be a big push for the back-to-school effort. And I think CMS and states are really interested, particularly in ensuring that children do not lose coverage even if their parents have regained employment and they’re no longer eligible. Another thing that’s going on is a lot of innovation in the means of enabling access to information. So many states have put in place personal apps through which people can track their own eligibility. There’s interest and some uptake of the so-called pizza-tracker function — so you can kind of see where you’re situated in that pipeline — and also a lot of use of automation to help call people back if they’re trying to get to state call centers. So really, all of those types of strategies … we’re seeing a huge amount of effort across the country.

Rovner: How’s the cooperation going with the Department of Health and Human Services? I know that … they seem to be not happy with some states. Are they being helpful, in general?

McEvoy: They’re being extraordinarily helpful. I would say that we often talk about Medicaid representing a federal-state equity partnership, and we’ve seen that manifest from the beginning of the first notice of the certainty around the start of the unwinding. CMCS has consistently offered guidance to states. They work with states using a mitigation approach as opposed to moving rapidly to compliance. We feel mitigation is the best way of essentially working out the strategies that are going to best protect continuing eligibility for people at the state level. And we really appreciate CMS’ efforts on that. We understand they do have to ensure accountability across the country, and we’re mutually committed to that.

Rovner: You better explain mitigation strategies.

McEvoy: Yeah, so this is a year where we are calling the question on eligibility standards that help ensure that the pathway to Medicaid coverage is a smooth one, and also that there is continuity of coverage. So, for any state that wasn’t yet meeting all those standards, CMCS essentially entered into an agreement with the state or territory to say, here is how you will get there. And that could have involved some means of improving the automatic renewals for Medicaid. It could have meant relying on an integrated eligibility processes. There are a lot of different tools and strategies that were put in place, but essentially that is a path to every state and territory coming into full compliance.

Rovner: Is there anything unexpected that’s happening? I know so much of this was predicted, and it was predicted that the states that went first that, you know, were really in a hurry to get extra people off of their rolls seem to be doing just that: getting extra people off of their rolls. Are you surprised at the differences among states?

McEvoy: I think that there have definitely been differences among states in terms of the tools they have used from a system standpoint, but I don’t see any differences in terms of retention of eligible people. That remains a shared goal across the entire country. And again, this is a watershed point where we have the opportunity to bring everyone to the same standards, ongoing, so that we help to prevent some of the heartache of the eligibility process for folks ongoing.

Rovner: Anything else I didn’t ask?

McEvoy: Well, I think that piece around the reconsideration period is particularly important. We are struck by there being probably less literacy around that option, and that’s something we want to continue to promote. The other piece I’d wind up by saying is that the Medicaid program is always available for people who are eligible. So in the worst-case scenario in which an otherwise eligible person loses coverage, they can always come back and be covered. This is in contrast to private insurance that may have an annual open enrollment period. Medicaid, as you know, is available on a rolling basis, and we want to keep reinforcing that theme so that no one goes with a gap in coverage.

Rovner: Kate McEvoy, thank you very much. And I hope we can call you back in a couple of months.

McEvoy: I would be very happy to hear from you.

Rovner: OK. We are back and it’s time for our extra credit segment. That’s when we each recommend a story we read this week we think you should read too. As always, don’t worry if you miss it. We will post the links on the podcast page at kffhealthnews.org and in our show notes on your phone or other mobile device. I did mine already. Emmarie, why don’t you go next?

Huetteman: My story this week comes from KFF Health News, my colleague Darius Tahir. He has a story called “The NIH Ices a Research Project. Is It Self-Censorship?” Now, the story talks about the fact that the former head of NIH Francis Collins, was, as he was leaving, announcing an effort to study health communications. And we’re talking about not just doctor-to-patient communications, but actually also how mass communications impact American health. But as Darius found out, the acting director quietly ended the program as NIH was preparing to open its grant applications. And officials who spoke with us said that they think political pressure over misinformation is to blame. Now, we don’t have to look too far for examples of conservative pressure over misinformation and information these days. In particular, there’s a notable one from just last month out of a Louisiana court, the federal court decision that blocked government officials from communicating with social media companies. You really don’t have to look too far to see that there’s a chilling effect on information. And we’re talking about the NIH was going to study or rather fund studies into communication and information. Not misinformation, information: how people get information about their health. So it’s a pretty interesting example and a really great story worth your read.

Rovner: And I’ve done nothing but preach about public health communication for three years now.

Kenen: It’s a very good story.

Rovner: Yeah, it was a really good story. Rachel, you’re next.

Roubein: All right. This story is called “From Windows to Wall Art, Hospitals Use Virtual Reality to Design More Inclusive Rooms for Kids,” by Stat News, by Mohana Ravindranath. And I thought this story was really interesting because she kind of dived into what Mohana called “a budding movement to make architecture more inclusive” for the people and patients who are spending a lot, a lot of time in hospital walls. And what some researchers are doing is using virtual reality to essentially gauge how comfortable children who are patients are in hospital rooms. And she talked to researchers at Berkeley who were using these, like, virtual reality headsets to kind of study and explore mocked-up hospital rooms. And, I didn’t know a ton about this field. I mean, apparently it’s not new, but it’s this kind of growing sort of movement to make patients more comfortable in the space that they’re inhabiting for perhaps long periods of time.

Rovner: I went to a conference on architecture, hospital architecture, making it more patient-centered, 10 years ago. But my favorite thing that I still remember from that is they talked about putting art on the ceiling because people are either in bed or they’re in gurneys. They’re looking up at the ceiling a lot. And ceilings are scary in hospitals. So that was one of the things that I took away from that. OK, Joanne, now it’s your turn.

Kenen: OK. This is from Fox News. And yes, you did hear that right. It’s by Melissa Rudy, and the headline is “Male Health Care Leaders Complete ‘Simulated Breastfeeding Challenge’ at Texas Hospital: ‘Huge Eye-Opener’.” So at Covenant Health, they had a bunch of high-level guys in suits pretend they were nursing and/or pumping mothers, and they had to nurse every three hours for 20 minutes at a time. And they found it was quite difficult and quite cumbersome and they didn’t have enough privacy. And as one of them said, “There was no way to multitask.” But trust me, if you have two kids, you have to figure that out, too. So it was a really good story.

Rovner: Some of these things that we feel like should be required everywhere, but it was a great read; it was a really good story. OK, that is our show for this week. As always, if you enjoy the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left us a review; that helps other people find us too. Special thanks this week to Zach Dyer, sitting in for the indefatigable Francis Ying. And as always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org. Or you can tweet me or X me or whatever; I’m @jrovner. And also on Bluesky and Threads. Rachel?

Roubein: @rachel_roubein — that’s on Twitter.

Rovner: Joanne.

Kenen: In most places I’m @JoanneKenen. On Threads, I’m @joannekenen1.

Rovner: Emmarie.

Huetteman: And I am @emmarieDC.

Rovner: We will be back in your feed next week. Until then, be healthy.

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The Host

Julie Rovner
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Julie Rovner is chief Washington correspondent and host of KFF Health News’ weekly health policy news podcast, “What the Health?” A noted expert on health policy issues, Julie is the author of the critically praised reference book “Health Care Politics and Policy A to Z,” now in its third edition.

Congress has left for its annual August recess, but lawmakers have a long to-do list waiting when they return — and only a handful of legislative days to fund the government before the Oct. 1 start of the new fiscal year.

Meanwhile, Republican presidential candidates who are not named Donald J. Trump are preparing for their first televised debate and making interesting promises about health care.

This week’s panelists are Julie Rovner of KFF Health News, Alice Miranda Ollstein of Politico, Sandhya Raman of CQ Roll Call, and Lauren Weber of The Washington Post.

Panelists

Alice Miranda Ollstein
Politico

@AliceOllstein

Read Alice's stories

Sandhya Raman
CQ Roll Call

@SandhyaWrites

Read Sandhya's stories

Lauren Weber
The Washington Post

@LaurenWeberHP

Read Lauren's stories

Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:

• Work has paused on Capitol Hill. Among other items of unfinished business, lawmakers returning next month will have to pass at least a short-term spending bill — or soon face a government shutdown with implications for health programs and much, much more. Authorizations are also on the agenda, with programs like community health centers on the line. But the path to passage winds through a social issues minefield, owing to conservative House Republicans who have inserted measures targeting abortion access and gender-affirming care for transgender people.
• Access to women’s health care in the United States is worsening, with maternal health deserts popping up around the nation even in the years before the overturn of Roe v. Wade. Some states in particular have seen a huge decline in the number of maternal health providers, including the closures of obstetric wards. The fact that more people are living in counties with no maternal health providers is troubling news for a nation experiencing a maternal mortality crisis.
• State medical boards across the country have disciplined fewer than two dozen providers reported for spreading covid-19 misinformation, according to a new investigation by The Washington Post. The paucity of punishments demonstrates how ill-equipped such boards are to address the serious problem of health misinformation.
• On the 2024 presidential campaign trail, Republican candidates like Gov. Ron DeSantis of Florida are signaling that re-litigating the covid pandemic is part of their playbook — but do voters still care that strongly about vaccine mandates and business shutdowns?
• And the National Institutes of Health has moved to officially study long covid, a little-understood condition that impacts the lives of many Americans.

Also this week, Rovner interviews KFF Health News senior correspondent Phil Galewitz, who reported the latest KFF Health News-NPR “Bill of the Month” installment, about how a bill that should never have been sent created headaches for one patient. If you have an outrageous medical bill you’d like to share with us, you can do that here.

Plus, for “extra credit,” the panelists suggest health policy stories they read this week that they think you should read, too:

Julie Rovner: Stat’s “Henrietta Lacks Settlement Hailed by Experts as Step Toward Correcting Medicine’s Racist History,” by Annalisa Merelli.

Alice Miranda Ollstein: The Tampa Bay Times’ “Florida Veered From Norms to Strip Transgender Care From Medicaid, Records Show,” by Emily L. Mahoney and Romy Ellenbogen.

Sandhya Raman: KFF Health News’ “Black Women Weigh Emerging Risks of ‘Creamy Crack’ Hair Straighteners,” by Ronnie Cohen.

Lauren Weber: Politico’s “CDC Investigators Find More TB Infections Linked to Bone Graft Materials,” by Alice Miranda Ollstein and Lauren Gardner.

Also mentioned in this week’s episode:

• The Washington Post’s “Doctors Who Put Lives at Risk With Covid Misinformation Rarely Punished,” by Lena H. Sun, Lauren Weber, and Hayden Godfrey.
• Roll Call’s “Health Deadlines Pile Up as Congress Adjourns for August,” by Lauren Clason, Ariel Cohen, Jessie Hellmann, and Sandhya Raman.
• Slate’s “How Meta Created a Wild West for Abortion Misinformation,” by Jennifer Neda John.
• Politico’s “‘It’s a Crisis’: Maternal Health Care Disappears for Millions,” by Alice Miranda Ollstein and Megan Messerly.

click to open the transcript

Transcript: Congress Is Out. The Presidential Campaign Is In.

KFF Health News’ ‘What the Health?’Episode Title: Congress Is Out. The Presidential Campaign Is In.Episode Number: 308Published: Aug. 3, 2023

[Editor’s note: This transcript, generated using transcription software, has been edited for style and clarity.]

Julie Rovner: Hello and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Julie Rovner, chief Washington correspondent for KFF Health News, and I’m joined by some of the best and smartest health reporters in Washington. We’re taping this week on Thursday, Aug. 3, at 10 a.m. As always, news happens fast, and things might have changed by the time you hear this. So here we go. We are joined today via video conference by Alice Ollstein, of Politico.

Ollstein: Good morning.

Rovner: Lauren Weber, The Washington Post.

Lauren Weber: Hello, hello.

Rovner: And Sandhya Raman, of CQ Roll Call.

Sandhya Raman: Good morning.

Rovner: Later in this episode we’ll have my interview with my KFF Health News colleague Phil Galewitz, who wrote the latest “Bill of the Month” for KFF Health News and NPR. This month’s patient never should have gotten a bill for his care, but he and his family ended up with a giant mess nonetheless. But first, this week’s news. It is officially August. Congress is gone until September, which makes it a good time to take stock of what has and hasn’t been accomplished on the health agenda and what might feasibly get done this fall, which is always shorter than you think. The biggest outstanding issue, literally and figuratively, is the spending bill for the Department of Health and Human Services. When Congress comes back, members theoretically only have 11 legislative days before Oct. 1, when the new fiscal year begins. And if Congress doesn’t complete work on the spending bill, which has yet to come to the House or Senate floor or even get out of the House Appropriations Committee, a lot of Health and Human Services programs could shut down unless Congress passes a temporary bill to keep them open. Sandhya, right now everything kind of points to an Oct. 1 shutdown, or am I missing something?

Raman: Yeah, I think at this point we’re looking at either a shutdown or just, like, a continuing resolution, just kicking the can a little bit down the road and giving them some more time. So right before Congress left, the Senate did advance, in the Appropriations Committee, their spending bill for [the departments of] Labor, HHS, and Education. And that means that all 12 of theirs have gotten at least that far, through the Senate Appropriations Committee, but they would still need to come to the floor, and it doesn’t mean that the House is going to agree to any of that. And the House is a lot further behind in that the only markup they’ve had on the HHS bill is on the subcommittee level. It’s not even at the House Appropriations level. And you can kind of see the tea leaves in that they were trying to get the agriculture bill done before they left, which has all the FDA money in it, and they didn’t end up bringing it to the floor because they didn’t think they would have the votes to pass it. So I think that we’re going to need some time, given that I don’t think that, even though the Senate bills have been bipartisan so far, that they’re going to be eager to jump on those.

Rovner: Every year when there’s a change in leadership in either the House or the Senate, they vow, “This is the year we’re not going to do a big omnibus spending bill. We’re going to do all 12 appropriations separately, and we’re going to run them through the House and the Senate floors, and we’re going to have a conference.” And it hasn’t happened in more than 20 years now. And there’s clearly no reason to think it’s going to happen this year, right?

Ollstein: And one of the biggest sticking points: There are the fights that happen every single year over things like the Hyde Amendment, which prevents federal spending on abortion, but that has spread to almost every single appropriations bill. There are anti-abortion budget riders. There are anti-trans health care budget riders. There are all kinds of things tucked in there that Democrats say they will oppose and that the Senate bills don’t have. But, you know, you have this disconnect where there are plenty of House members who would be completely fine with a shutdown; they’ve said publicly that they think that would not be so bad.

Rovner: You have to say it wouldn’t be as bad as letting the debt ceiling get breached.

Ollstein: Right, right, right, right. Whereas Democrats are very much saying it would be horrible to have a shutdown. And so I was talking to some Democratic House members who say that people are really torn between the pressure to make a deal to keep the government open and the pressure to oppose all of these conservative budget riders. And that tension is going to really come into play in the fall.

Rovner: Yeah. Alice, you wrote a wonderful story on all the abortion fights in all these different bills, and I just had sort of deja vu to the ’90s. If you were following abortion, you had to keep track of obviously the ag bill with FDA in it, HHS bill, and the Department of Justice bill because of abortion in prisons, and the defense bill because of, you know, abortions for servicewomen. I mean, we basically had some kind of abortion fight in more than half of the appropriations bills. So we’re coming back to that right now. Well, there are also lots of programs whose authorizations expire Oct. 1. That’s not the same as the appropriations bills that we’ve just been talking about. Without appropriations, programs have to shut down, at least temporarily. Authorizations, though, can lapse as long as the programs are funded through the appropriations. But it’s still nice to, you know, get your work done on time. Some of the big programs Congress is working on include renewing authority for community health centers, for pandemic preparedness programs, for a big group of graduate medical education programs. What’s the fall outlook for those authorizations?

Raman: So I think part of it is tied into what we see with appropriations, because a lot of these programs — even if they come to an agreement, it’s likely to ride on whatever big spending bill we have next, whether that’s a continuing resolution, whether that’s an omnibus or anything like that. So if we end up seeing some sort of continuing resolution, which is looking likely, a lot of these are going to be short-term, maybe extended if they have an agreement there, which is what they traditionally do, and then something longer — the next vehicle that pops up, the next one, or sometimes they even get a one-year, even if there is agreement, just because this is what Congress does. So some of them, I think, are looking more promising than others. We’ve seen things kind of happen with some of the graduate medical education, the [National] Health Service Corps, like those have kind of come to some sort of agreement, but —

Rovner: And those are typically bipartisan programs.

Raman: Yeah, but then others are not as far along and will take time. I mean, the process to even do like the SUPPORT [for Patients and Communities] Act, which was a 2018 law that had a bunch of different opioid provisions in it, that was bipartisan, got through: I mean, we’ve been marked up in [the] Energy and Commerce [Committee] in the House, and the Senate has not done a markup; they just have a bill that has come out so far. And so getting that done before the Sept. 30 deadline is tricky. There are some that are a little bit more partisan that I think would be more difficult to get done. I mean, the Children’s Hospitals Graduate Medical Education has been a little bit derailed over, like, political back-and-forth over policies for transgender children. And so I think even some things that have been more easy to get across the finish line in the past are having factors that are weighing them down. So a lot of these are a question mark. Yeah.

Rovner: So that was originally a Republican program. I remember when it was created because Medicare funds most of the graduate medical education, but obviously there’s not a lot of Medicare beneficiaries who are children, so they had been left out and this is their own program. But I always get at this point to share my favorite piece of trivia about authorizations versus appropriations, which is that the federal family planning program, Title X [“ten”], has not been reauthorized since 1984. Congress has tried any number of times and has failed. It continues to get funded, but it has literally been operating without authorization for all of those years. Well, one more important authorization that’s not part of the Department of Health and Human Services but is part of health care is PEPFAR [the United States President’s Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief], the very successful international AIDS and HIV program begun under President George W. Bush 20 years ago this year. But this time around, the bipartisanly popular program is hung up over — what else? — abortion. Alice, you wrote about this. I mean, PEPFAR, this is really a Republican-backed program.

Ollstein: Yes. It was created by George W. Bush and has had bipartisan support for most of its life. It’s credited with saving the lives of tens of millions of people. Few programs can say that, of any kind. And millions of people are depending on it right now for access to medications around the world. So Republicans are saying that they won’t support reauthorizing it but they will keep it funded through appropriations, just like you were talking about, keep it sort of limping along on a one-year budget, with language restoring the Trump-era restrictions on the program. So, of course, for the entirety of the program, money has not gone to providing abortions, but this expands that and says money can’t go to any organization that, you know, uses other money to provide abortions or even an organization that gives money to another organization and that subsequent organization does abortions. And so this really has been tough for the program in the last few years. And independent experts are telling me that not reauthorizing it, yes, it wouldn’t shut down the program, but they worry it would send a signal to other countries that this is not something the U.S. is really invested in going forward and it would lead other people to cutting their contributions.

Rovner: Yeah, I mean, in addition to saving millions of lives or tens of millions of lives, this has been an important piece of international diplomacy, particularly in Africa, right?

Ollstein: Right. And that was the point Sen. [Bob] Menendez [(D-N.J.)], who had wanted a full five-year reauthorization attached to the NDAA [National Defense Authorization Act], which he said his Republican colleagues killed — he made that exact point.

Rovner: The defense authorization bill.

Ollstein: Exactly, yes. They were trying that as a workaround to get it reauthorized. And it didn’t work because of GOP opposition. But Menendez was saying, you know, this will only empower countries like China that have been trying to make inroads in Africa with philanthropic work and reduce the influence of the U.S. The geopolitics are definitely on people’s mind as well as the basic humanitarian value.

Rovner: So it’s going to be a busy fall. Well, while we are on the subject of reproductive health, the problem of getting maternal health care here in the U.S. is growing, according to a new study from the March of Dimes. We are the country that already has the worst record for maternal mortality in the developed world. Yay, us. How much worse has it gotten?

Ollstein: It’s gotten a lot worse. So in just one year, between 2019 and 2020, there was a 4% decline in the number of hospitals that have birthing services, OB [obstetrics] wards. And 4% may not sound like a lot, but it’s not evenly distributed; that’s just the national average. Some states had a nearly 25% decline. And like you said, you know, we’re already doing so much worse than other countries with maternal mortality. And this just means millions of more people than before are living in a county that has zero hospitals, zero OB-GYNs, zero maternal health care providers — and then a lot of those same places, these same states and counties, also have really high rates of chronic health conditions that are contributors to maternal mortality. And so all of this is coming as births are expected to go up because of abortion bans. This data was from before Dobbs [v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization, the 2022 Supreme Court ruling overturning the nationwide right to abortion], so we don’t know yet what’s going to happen, but the expectation is that births will go up. And at the same time, there’s just fewer care providers to meet that need.

Rovner: And we also know that in the states with bans, we’re starting to see providers either leave or not go there to train in the first place, which is just going to make the whole thing worse. This week the action is going on in a couple of Midwestern states, Indiana and Ohio, I guess both of which have bans, and one of which is in force and one of which isn’t. Where are we with Indiana and Ohio? I know it changes from hour to hour.

Ollstein: So Ohio’s ban is still enjoined, so that means abortion is still legal in Ohio. The development was about this upcoming vote, and there are two upcoming votes. This is kind of wonky, but the upcoming vote that’s happening in less than a week is whether to make ballot initiatives in general harder to pass, to raise the threshold from 50 to 60%. And that’s explicitly intended to thwart the fall vote on legalizing abortion in the state and putting something in the state constitution that supports it.

Rovner: Which, coincidentally, polls show has about like 56, 57% support, right? So 60% would make it more likely to fail.

Ollstein: Right. Right. That’s coming up. But for now, because of a court injunction, abortion remains legal and the ban is not enforced.

Rovner: And Indiana, which had a very stringent ban that was about to go into effect?

Ollstein: Sandhya, do you want to?

Raman: Oh, yeah. I was just going to add to Ohio first that, as of this morning, the voter turnout for the Ohio election next week is super high. It was, like, over 380,000 people have already cast their ballot, and that was higher than, I guess, you know, when they had, like, [a] competitive Senate primary before. And so it will definitely be something to watch. I mean, we don’t know if the voter turnout is high one way or the other, but I just thought that was really interesting. But with Indiana, their abortion ban was supposed to take effect on Tuesday and then it was halted by another lawsuit, and they were the state that was the first one to pass a post-Dobbs, new abortion ban last year. So it’s, like, another sticking point in that a lot of the bans that have gone into effect are older laws or things that have been unblocked in court.

Rovner: So, yes, it really does depend on the day. I guess I read that a bunch of clinics that had been providing abortion have stopped, even though the ban is, at least for the moment, on hold. So rather typically around the country, you literally have to go day by day to figure out what is allowed and what is not. All right. Well, let us turn now to a segment I’m calling “Myths and Disinformation” this week. Lauren, I was so glad you could join us this week because you and a couple of your colleagues at the Post have a new investigation into how doctors who were peddling bad and often dangerous information during the pandemic were called to account. Spoiler: Not a lot of them were, right?

Weber: Yeah, I was going to say spoiler alert that not a lot of them were called to account. So essentially my colleagues Lena Sun, Hayden Godfrey, and I reviewed the records from all 50 states’ various medical boards, both MD boards and osteopathic boards, to see who actually had been punished for spreading covid misinformation or for practicing in a way that is misinformation-related. And despite discovering from our various records requests over hundreds of complaints for doctors that asked patients to remove masks or told them the vaccines were full of metal or told them not to get a vaccine or a various number of the —or prescribed ivermectin or hydroxychloroquine — only 20 doctors have been disciplined, and we are three and a half years into covid. And you know, what our investigation found is something that everyone on this panel has known for quite some time. But state medical boards are historically weak, underfunded, and are very ill-equipped in the social media age, where misinformation is a deluge, to really step into that breach. And what our investigation essentially found is that they’ve really failed to stop doctors that are spreading misinformation or, you know, prescribing drugs that are not deemed the consensus around the standard of care.

Rovner: So everybody says, oh, well, this is up to medical boards in every state, and they keep doctors honest and keep them on the straight and narrow and sanction them when they do wrong things. That’s not been true for a long time. And I guess now it’s still not true, right?

Weber: Yeah, exactly. And it’s really interesting. And this came up, too, in the case in Idaho for abortion, you see a lot of misinformation folks cite free speech in their ability to practice medicine. It’s actually — you know, it makes it difficult to discipline people because it is being able to prescribe things off-label, or your medical judgment is not something people — medical boards are loath to discipline over, and for good reason. You understand why that may be, but in the case of covid, where this has continued and, you know, treatments like hydroxychloroquine or ivermectin have been deemed outside of the standard of care, it is very surprising that we’ve seen such a low number of disciplinary actions taken. It really goes to show that the boards are not equipped to kind of step into this breach as misinformation has flooded the zone.

Rovner: Well, meanwhile, abortion rights groups are getting frustrated with Meta, Facebook’s parent company, over its inconsistent moderation of information about abortion and reproductive health. It reminds me of some years ago when public libraries would try to limit internet search terms to keep people away from online porn but ended up barring people from searching about breast cancer because it had the word “breast” in it. So this isn’t something that’s new. In fact, going back decades, anti-abortion groups used to advertise their crisis pregnancy centers, which don’t offer abortion but sound like they do, in the yellow pages of the phone book. And kids, ask your parents what a Yellow Pages was. But social media algorithms have the ability to determine what information a lot more people see or don’t see. This one looks pretty hard to resolve. I know that, unlike Twitter, Facebook is trying here, but this is going to be difficult, yes?

Weber: Yeah, I would say it’s a really hard — you know, it’s interesting that the article in particular that you’re talking about, there were two different camps opposed that were saying abortion is killing the unborn child versus you’re killing people if they have an abortion. And both of those got sanctioned by Facebook because it had the word kill in it. And so what we’re going to see is how they come down on this information. But in a world where you see misinformation — in [Judge Matthew] Kacsmaryk’s circuit [district] court ruling, you know, it’s kind of hard to see how this is going to be resolved by Facebook. I do not envy them in this task. I don’t really know how you would come down on this and how you would comprehensively evaluate all of these posts in a fair manner that is respective of free speech. And like you said, Julie, you know, a lot of times it leads to unintended consequences when you try and restrict posts like this on all sides. And there are some smart people that are trying to advise in the correct way, but we’ll see what happens.

Rovner: Yeah, it is not easy. Speaking of mis- and disinformation and real information, we’re going to move to the campaign trail, because it’s only August of an odd-numbered year but the 2024 presidential campaign is in full swing, with the first Republican candidate debate later this month. And while health care, specifically the desire to repeal the Affordable Care Act, is far from the rallying cry for Republicans that it has been in the last couple of presidential campaigns, we are seeing some interesting stances and comments from candidates who are not named Donald Trump. We will start with the candidate who’s running second in the Republican primary polls. That would be Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis, whose campaign launch has been anything but smooth. DeSantis, perhaps looking for some publicity, raised some eyebrows last week when he suggested on a conservative podcast that, if elected, he might install Democratic presidential candidate and known anti-vaxxer Robert F. Kennedy Jr. at the CDC [Centers for Disease Control and Prevention] or the FDA. DeSantis has been trying to stake out kind of a middle ground on his vaccine position. He’s not outright anti-vax, but he doesn’t support mandates and he’s kind of hot and cold on supporting vaccines in general. I don’t see how this would actually win him love on either side. I mean, he actually said that they would sic RFK Jr. on the CDC or the FDA.

Weber: I got to say, I find it fascinating. I mean, look, RFK Jr. has a cult following. And I think if anything, it speaks to the fact that Republicans are very much anti-vaccine mandate, anti-government shutdown, all things that RFK says all the time. And DeSantis did walk it back and said he would put him on a committee because, you know, we wouldn’t want a Democrat actually running these things. But I think really what this episode shows is the salience that words like the CDC, and we’ll talk later about the FDA — you know, the American voting public cares about these things now. They know what these agencies are, and they have strong feelings. They blame them for pandemic policies. And I think it just goes to show that relitigating the pandemic and different people’s versions of how they believe the pandemic went is really going to be a constant in this political run-up to 2024.

Ollstein: While I agree with that, I also think it is maybe not as salient as DeSantis was hoping it would be. I mean, he really has formed his candidacy on his governorship during the pandemic, and it doesn’t seem to be breaking through. He’s still just miles and miles and miles behind Trump. And depending on the polls, some of these people with way less of a platform than the governor of Florida are doing quite well. And so I think that people do have strong feelings about vaccine mandates and mask mandates and school closures and all of that, but not nearly as strong as a year ago. So I think that he maybe isn’t getting the juice from saying a lot of these things that he was hoping he would.

Rovner: Well, speaking of candidates who have less of a platform and yet seem to be making inroads — long shot but picking-up-momentum candidate Vivek Ramaswamy, who actually does know something about health policy, as the founder of a biotech firm, has vowed to, quote, “expose and [to] ultimately gut” the FDA. Now, he is a former libertarian rapper, so it is not a shock that he opposes most federal regulatory entities. But I wonder how even Republican voters would feel about actually gutting the FDA. It’s one thing — Alice, you were talking about feelings about the pandemic, but the FDA obviously does a lot more things than just deal with masks and covid vaccines. I mean, is there really a Republican constituency for wiping out the federal regulatory mechanism?

Ollstein: I mean, there at least seems to be at the state level in some states. We’ve talked so much about how GOP lawmakers have voted to roll back public health powers in a bunch of states because of covid. But it’s set to have implications way beyond covid and limit public health workers’ ability to respond to foodborne outbreaks and other things — things in the water, things in the air. So you could see that skepticism and desire to strip the government of its public health powers at the federal level as well.

Rovner: And, Lauren, you’ve been looking at this at the state level, too, right, sort of the slow decline of trust in public health, or maybe not-so-slow decline of trust in public health.

Weber: Yeah. I mean, you know, I found this February, 30 states have passed laws that have rolled back public health powers. There’s litigation at the federal level that has really stripped a lot of executive power for the public health system. As we know, public health leaders on the ground have resigned, quit, or been fired in droves due to political pushback. There’s a lot of concern among the public health community and the folks that I talk to constantly that we have seen just a massive hollowing-out of the workforce that will be impossible to replace. And so I think you’re seeing, you know, kind of as we’ve talked about, how I think this is a talking point among Republican candidates, to kind of bash these government agencies because it’s something that is appealing to people that are irritated over these deals.

Raman: Like, if you look at his comments about this, does this really hold up to the scrutiny? I mean, FDA is not the one that would mandate vaccines, mandate mask-wearing. They don’t set prices. None of that is under their jurisdiction. And, you know, you can assume that he knows this given his background, but I think it just kind of goes with some of his other comments about, you know, defunding a lot of the other agencies that he’s made. So I think some of this also just banks on people maybe not knowing, you know, what falls under what bucket. And it just might be an easy punching bag to lump it in together if the people aren’t aware of what falls under CDC versus FDA or any other agency or state-level.

Rovner: And he’s one of those people that just seems very sure of himself, even when what he’s saying isn’t necessarily true. And the very-sure-of-himself part seems to appeal to voters. But I want to go back to DeSantis just one more time. But before we’re done, speaking of trying to have it both ways, DeSantis stepped into a bees’ nest on abortion, of all things. This is the governor who signed a six-week abortion ban bill in Florida, but he kind of hemmed and hawed about saying whether he would support a national abortion ban. So that won him a firm rebuke from the Susan B Anthony List, which is a pretty powerful political arm of conservative Republicans. Does DeSantis really think he can sustain a position like this, where you can really say, “We only want states to deal with this and we don’t really want it to be at the federal government”? I mean, that was sort of the Supreme Court’s argument. But I think that there’s a lot of grassroots Republicans who would like to not have to fight this state by state and would like to see a national ban.

Ollstein: Yes, the major anti-abortion groups have said that that, you know, “leave it to the states” is not an answer they will accept and they will continue to put the pressure on candidates. Their argument is that, you know, because of things like the appropriations process and because of things like access via Medicaid — [that] is a fight and access in prisons is a fight and access for — you know, their argument is the federal government is already involved in abortion, so you should support the federal government getting involved in banning abortion.

Rovner: Which is kind of true. I mean, the part about the federal government already being heavily involved in abortion.

Ollstein: Sure. Do with that what you will. But candidates keep falling into this same trap. I mean, you had Nikki Haley, who is not polling very well at the moment — she held a whole event with Susan B. Anthony List that they hyped, and she said she would lay out her plan for abortion and there were, like, no specifics whatsoever. And then the group said, “Oh, she assured us she supports a national ban,” but then she said she didn’t. And this is going to continue to be a fight. I think really Mike Pence is the one who is most firm in saying, “Yeah, I support a national ban.”

Rovner: Yeah, and he’s been consistent his entire career, when he was in the House and when he was governor.

Ollstein: He is also not polling very well, I will note.

Rovner: Yes, that’s true. Fair point. We will obviously continue to talk about things on the campaign trail as we move along the campaign trail. Well, finally this week, I want to talk about covid, which we haven’t done for a while. It is still around, and cases, while still low, are on the upswing at the moment. But the news this week is that after almost three years, the National Institutes of Health is finally acting on directions from Congress to get moving on efforts to study and treat so-called long covid, which as many as 10% of patients end up with after having the virus. The long covid community, which could be several million people, have been agitating for scientists to take their symptoms more seriously and do more work in the research realm. Now, NIH has finally created an Office of Long COVID [Research and Practice], albeit with only two full-time staffers to start with. It’s also started enrolling an estimated 24,000 people in several clinical trials to test things like a longer course of the drug Paxlovid. But patient groups say it’s still way too little for what’s a serious and growing more widespread ailment. Why is this all taking so long? I mean, we have a Democratic administration. One would think that they would be anxious to do this.

Weber: I mean, I think if you look at it, there was over a billion dollars allocated to this. I mean, I don’t know why it’s taking so long, Julie. I think a lot of advocates are asking the same question and really beating the drum around that — and especially if you look at things that are named Operation Warp Speed or, you know, other covid treatments, vaccine, other things that were able to move at a much quicker pace and get done in a much quicker time frame — I think there’s a lot of agitation among what could be a very large group of people that their concerns and quality of life and some of these horrible symptoms are not being addressed. And as you noted, I think it’s very fascinating there are only two full-time staffers. I’ll be curious to see if this continues to change, but historically, it hasn’t been very promising.

Rovner: This is not new that Congress will direct, particularly the NIH, to study something that NIH just doesn’t seem prepared to study. Of course, as we know, there’s no NIH director at the moment. We’ve talked about the fact that nominee is being blocked by Democrat Bernie Sanders. But still, I mean, this is something — and I think Congress wants NIH to do because so many of their constituents are coming to them and saying, “We have this problem; please go out and study it.” And yet the federal scientists don’t seem to know really what to do.

Weber: Well, and there was a congressman, I don’t remember his name, but someone on this panel probably does, who said he was retiring because he has long covid, and I think he has colleagues that also have long covid. So, I mean, I think that probably helped get them a fair amount of cash. But as you said, the delivery mechanism on getting clinical trials rolling has really not been there.

Rovner: Well, we will keep an eye on this, too. That is this week’s news. Now we will play my interview with KFF Health News’ Phil Galewitz, and then we will come back with our extra credits. We are pleased to welcome back to the podcast my colleague Phil Galewitz, who reported and wrote the latest KFF Health News-NPR “Bill of the Month” story. Phil, thanks for being here.

Phil Galewitz: Nice to be back.

Rovner: So, this month’s patient was well covered by insurance and, to cut to the chase, shouldn’t have paid anything for a surgery he had in 2021. Tell us who he is and what kind of care he got.

Galewitz: Thomas Greene had complications from diabetes, and he had to get some clogged arteries cleared out in his leg to treat something called peripheral artery disease. So he went to the hospital in 2021 for the procedure. He recovered pretty well. He had some other health issues, but he recovered fine from the procedure. The issue then came when the bills started coming in.

Rovner: And Mr. Greene has both Medicare and a supplemental Medigap policy, which should have brought his out-of-pocket cost to zero. But that’s not what happened. What did happen?

Galewitz: Yes, the Greenes, because of their good insurance, were used to whenever they got health care, that they did not have any out-of-pocket expenses. But this time, about a year later, or over a year, after the procedure, they suddenly started getting some letters from collection agencies who were looking to collect bills for about $3,000 for anesthesia.

Rovner: So, just the anesthesia part.

Galewitz: It was just the anesthesia. The hospital was fine. The surgeon who did the procedure was fine, but the anesthesiologist, who they were not even familiar with, started sending them bills through a collection agency, and they were perplexed about what was going on. And they tried to reach out and call and find out what was happening, why they were getting bills. And they said they were getting a runaround and couldn’t really get a clear answer.

Rovner: They went for help, too, and the people who were helping them had trouble getting answers.

Galewitz: Yes. They went to some organizations within Pennsylvania that specialize in helping seniors with their medical bills, and even them couldn’t get any clear answers. And then thankfully, they kept pushing and kept pushing, and they were able to get another advocacy group to work on their behalf, who talked to this organization called the North American Partners in Anesthesia, which is a large anesthesia group, to stop sending them bills, and thankfully, the bills have stopped coming. They did not pay anything, but they were worried about that this was going to affect your credit.

Rovner: So what did happen? How did they end up with these bills that they shouldn’t have had?

Galewitz: It’s still a mystery. North American would not talk to us, KFF Health News, to give us answers, and they don’t really have a clear answer. By law, providers are supposed to bill Medicare within one year to have their claims paid. In this case, the records that the Greenes have show that the bills to the claims to Medicare were sent in after a year, and that because of that, Medicare clearly marked down and said these bills are after a year, we’re not paying anything, and the patient owes zero. And when a patient gets a notice from Medicare saying, “You owe zero,” that’s supposed to be it. You don’t owe anything. No matter what letters you get from the provider, you’re not supposed to pay anything. But in this case the provider continued to bill and continued to send collection agencies after the patient. And they were perplexed.

Rovner: And just to be clear, when they billed this supplemental policy, the supplemental policy has to deny it if Medicare denied it, right?

Galewitz: Right. Humana was their supplemental provider, and that was actually the answer from Humana. If Medicare is not covering it, then we’re not going to cover it.

Rovner: So, in the meantime, even if you get one of these bills and you know that you don’t owe anything but there are collection letters coming, you do need to do something, right?

Galewitz: Yes. You should open your mail. The Greenes did say at one point they think they may have gotten some letters earlier from the anesthesia group and they may not have opened them. Because they didn’t expect any bills, they didn’t open them. The lesson is open your mail. Even if you think you shouldn’t get any bill, you should at least know ahead of time that you may be able to stave off problems down the road. So always open your mail, and then you may be able to handle the problem earlier on. So they may have stopped some of the collections. But again, they were covered. They reached out. They tried to do everything that they can within their realm, and they struggled. They’re feeling OK now. They never got a letter from North American saying, “Hey, we apologize,” or, “You’re in the clear.” They’ve just stopped getting bills. And it’s been since last year that they’ve gotten a bill, so they feel like they should be OK.

Rovner: And just the one little quirk also of this story is that it looked like the anesthesia group overbilled, right?

Galewitz: There was a question on the bills, on the claims, that it appeared that an anesthesiologist and a nurse anesthetist both billed Medicare for the exact same time, though it could be that maybe there was both, that one assisted the other. This was not a complex procedure. So there were questions about that. But it would be unusual that they would both bill for the exact same time period. And so there’s a question if they were double billing; it could not have been. North American would not answer our question.

Rovner: Well, so we have discovered another thing that, even if you don’t necessarily get answers, it appears that they got their problem solved, right?

Galewitz: Yes.

Rovner: OK. Phil, Galewitz, thank you very much.

Galewitz: Thank you.

Rovner: OK. We are back and it’s time for our extra credit segment. That’s when we each recommend a story we read this week we think you should read too. As always, don’t worry if you miss it. We’ll post the links on the podcast page at kffhealthnews.org and in our show notes on your phone or other mobile device. Alice, why don’t you go first this week?

Ollstein: Sure. Staying on the DeSantis train, I have a piece from the Tampa Bay Times called “Florida Veered From Norms to Strip Transgender Care From Medicaid, Records Show.” And this came out of a lawsuit that was challenging the state’s decision to strip Medicaid coverage of gender-affirming care, not just for children, but for adults as well. So what came out in discovery in the lawsuit was that the state did just all of these really unusual things. And the judge thought it showed a political motivation rather than, you know, a serious health care motivation for doing this. They paid all of these outside contractors with dubious backgrounds to be part of this effort. They came up with a slogan for the report, which is completely unusual. And the reporters found that staffers who supported defunding gender-affirming care got huge raises, and people who were not supportive of it did not. So, really good accountability reporting, and it seems to have played out in court as well.

Rovner: Yeah, quite a story. Sandhya.

Raman: My extra credit this week is called “Black Women Weigh Emerging Risks of ‘Creamy Crack’ Hair Straighteners.” And it’s from Ronnie Cohen for KFF Health News and on BET. The story takes a look at the messaging and awareness related to increasing health risks that people are worried about related to relaxers or, you know, chemically straightened hair. And it’s something that is especially popular among Black women. I think it was really interesting that only about half of states have anti-hair-discrimination laws, and so a lot of women might be more eager to get their hair chemically straightened for various reasons, workplace or things like that. And there’s not a ton of research.

Rovner: Right. It’s not just that they think it looks better.

Raman: No, no. And there’s not a ton of research on the cancer risk, but personal care products like hair relaxers don’t have the same kind of approval process through the FDA as food and drugs. So, it just takes a look at some of the different things there and what different providers are kind of considering and watching out for.

Rovner: Yeah, it’s really kind of scary. Lauren.

Weber: I actually flagged one of Alice’s stories, which is, “CDC Investigators Find More TB Infections Linked to Bone Graft Materials,” and it details how a bunch of patients have tested positive for tuberculosis after receiving bone grafts. And one of them has died. And there’s 36 more that are being treated for tuberculosis. And I find this fascinating because I find the coverage of tuberculosis in this country totally not where it should be. I mean, TB is — there are a lot of cases in the U.S. It’s a highly infectious — I mean, not a lot; there’s like 10,000 — but there’s a lot more than people realize. And it can be latent and lie in wait and, you know, to have some sort of medical procedure and then find out that whatever was implanted in you has given you a very dangerous, highly infectious disease that could result in you having to quarantine for months, depending on what it is, is really alarming. And there’s a lot of accountability follow-up questions on this for the FDA, these bone graft companies. And it gets at, do we want to gut the FDA, that is hopefully trying to stop things like this, even if it’s not preventing it here? It just leads to a lot of accountability questions that I think are quite fascinating.

Rovner: Yeah, a lot a lot of things that people have not thought about. Well, my story this week is from Stat, but it’s not so much a story as it is an event. Aug. 1 would have been the 103rd birthday of Henrietta Lacks, who longtime listeners to the podcast will remember we talked about a few years back when the book about her life, “The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks,” was made into a movie. For those of you without such long memories, Henrietta Lacks was an African American woman from Baltimore who was admitted to Johns Hopkins Hospital for cervical cancer in 1951. She died later that year at age 31. But the doctors who treated her also harvested cells without her knowledge or permission that turned out to be the first-ever self-perpetuating cell line. So HeLa cells, as they are called, for Henrietta Lacks, have been used in more than 75,000 different studies since then and have led to the development of such breakthroughs as the polio vaccine, treatments for cancer, and even the mapping of the human genome. While Hopkins has given the cells away for free to researchers, many of the companies that have used them have developed products that have made them, the companies, very rich. But until this week, no one in Henrietta Lacks’ family ever profited from the enormous contribution that she made to medical science. This week, the family’s lawyers reached a confidential but presumably significant settlement with one of those companies, Thermo Fisher, which makes a wide range of scientific supplies. But this is not just about justice for the family of Henrietta Lacks; it’s about starting to recognize and atone for unethical medical research over many, many years, particularly on African Americans. A good birthday present indeed. OK, that is our show for this week. As always, if you enjoy the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left us a review; that helps other people find us too. Special thanks, as always, to our producer, Francis Ying. Also as always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org. Or you can still tweet me. I’m @jrovner. Sandhya.

Raman: I’m @SandhyaWrites.

Rovner: Lauren.

Weber: @LaurenWeberHP.

Rovner: Alice.

Ollstein: @AliceOllstein.

Rovner: We will be back in your feed next week. Until then, be healthy.

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Julie Rovner is chief Washington correspondent and host of KFF Health News’ weekly health policy news podcast, “What the Health?” A noted expert on health policy issues, Julie is the author of the critically praised reference book “Health Care Politics and Policy A to Z,” now in its third edition.

The Biden administration continued a bipartisan, decades-long effort to ensure that health insurance treats mental illnesses the same as other ailments, with a new set of regulations aimed at ensuring that services are actually available without years-long waits or excessive out-of-pocket costs.

Meanwhile, two more committees in Congress approved bills this week aimed at reining in the power of pharmacy benefit managers, who are accused of keeping prescription drug prices high to increase their bottom lines.

This week’s panelists are Julie Rovner of KFF Health News, Anna Edney of Bloomberg, Joanne Kenen of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico, and Sarah Karlin-Smith of the Pink Sheet.

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Anna Edney
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Joanne Kenen
Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico

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Sarah Karlin-Smith
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Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:

• The Biden administration’s new rules to enforce federal mental health parity requirements include no threat of sanctions when health plans do not comply; noncompliance with even the most minimal federal rules has been a problem dating to the 1990s. Improving access to mental health care is not a new policy priority, nor a partisan one, yet it remains difficult to achieve.
• With the anniversary of the 988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline, more people are becoming aware of how to access help and get it. Challenges remain, however, such as the hotline service’s inability to connect callers with local care. But the program seizes on the power of an initial connection for someone in a moment of crisis and offers a lifeline for a nation experiencing high rates of depression, anxiety, and suicide.
• In news about the so-called Medicaid unwinding, 12 states have paused disenrollment efforts amid concerns they are not following renewal requirements. A major consideration is that most people who are disenrolled would qualify to obtain inexpensive or even free coverage through the Affordable Care Act. But reenrollment can be challenging, particularly for those with language barriers or housing insecurity, for instance.
• With a flurry of committee activity, Congress is revving up to pass legislation by year’s end targeting the role of pharmacy benefit managers — and, based on the advertisements blanketing Washington, PBMs are nervous. It appears legislation would increase transparency and inform policymakers as they contemplate further, more substantive changes. That could be a tough sell to a public crying out for relief from high health care costs.
• Also on Capitol Hill, far-right lawmakers are pushing to insert abortion restrictions into annual government spending bills, threatening yet another government shutdown on Oct. 1. The issue is causing heartburn for less conservative Republicans who do not want more abortion votes ahead of their reelection campaigns.
• And the damage to a Pfizer storage facility by a tornado is amplifying concerns about drug shortages. After troubling problems with a factory in India caused shortages of critical cancer drugs, decision-makers in Washington have been keeping an eye on the growing issues, and a response may be brewing.

Also this week, Rovner interviews KFF Health News’ Céline Gounder about the new season of her “Epidemic” podcast. This season chronicles the successful public health effort to eradicate smallpox.

Plus, for “extra credit,” the panelists suggest health policy stories they read this week that they think you should read, too:

Julie Rovner: The Nation’s “The Anti-Abortion Movement Gets a Dose of Post-Roe Reality,” by Amy Littlefield.

Joanne Kenen: Food & Environment Reporting Network’s “Can Biden’s Climate-Smart Agriculture Program Live Up to the Hype?” by Gabriel Popkin.

Anna Edney: Bloomberg’s “Mineral Sunscreens Have Potential Hidden Dangers, Too,” by Anna Edney.

Sarah Karlin-Smith: CNN’s “They Took Blockbuster Drugs for Weight Loss and Diabetes. Now Their Stomachs Are Paralyzed,” by Brenda Goodman.

Also mentioned in this week’s episode:

• CNN’s “Medicaid Disenrollments Paused in a Dozen States After Failure to Comply With Federal Rules,” by Tami Luhby.
• Abortion, Every Day’s “Why Are OBGYNs Being Forced to Go to Texas?” by Jessica Valenti.
• Politico’s “GOP Looks to Spending Fights for Wins on Abortion, Trans Care, Contraception,” by Alice Miranda Ollstein.
• KFF Health News’ “A Year With 988: What Worked? What Challenges Lie Ahead,” by Colleen DeGuzman.

click to open the transcript

Transcript: Another Try for Mental Health ‘Parity’

KFF Health News’ ‘What the Health?’Episode Title: Another Try for Mental Health ‘Parity’Episode Number: 307Published: July 27, 2023

[Editor’s note: This transcript, generated using transcription software, has been edited for style and clarity.]

Julie Rovner: Hello and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Julie Rovner, chief Washington correspondent for KFF Health News, and I’m joined by some of the best and smartest health reporters in Washington. We’re taping this week on Thursday, July 27, at 10 a.m. As always, news happens fast and things might have changed by the time you hear this. So, here we go. We are joined today via video conference by Joanne Kenen of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico.

Joanne Kenen: Hi, everybody.

Rovner: Sarah Karlin-Smith, the Pink Sheet.

Sarah Karlin-Smith: Hi, Julie.

Rovner: And Anna Edney of Bloomberg News.

Edney: Hello.

Rovner: Later in this episode, we’ll have my interview with my KFF colleague Céline Gounder about the new season of her podcast “Epidemic,” which tracks one of the last great public health success stories, the eradication of smallpox. But first, this week’s news. I want to start this week with mental health, which we haven’t talked about in a while — specifically, mental health parity, which is both a law and a concept, that mental ailments should be covered and reimbursed by health insurance the same way as a broken bone or case of pneumonia or any other — air quotes — “physical ailment.” Policymakers, Republican and Democrat, and the mental health community have been fighting pretty much nonstop since the mid-1990s to require parity. And despite at least five separate acts of Congress over that time — I looked it up this week — we are still not there yet. To this day, patients with psychiatric illnesses find their care denied reimbursement, made difficult to access, or otherwise treated as lesser. This week, the Biden administration is taking another whack at the issue, putting out proposed rules it hopes will start to close the remaining parity gap, among other things by requiring health plans to analyze their networks and prior authorization rules and other potential barriers to care to ensure that members actually can get the care they need. What I didn’t see in the rules, though, was any new threat to sanction plans that don’t comply — because plans have been not complying for a couple of decades now. How much might these new rules help in the absence of a couple of multimillion-dollar fines?

Edney: I had that same question when I was considering this because I didn’t see like, OK, like, great, they’re going to do their self-policing, and then what? But I do think that there’s the possibility, and this has been used in health care before, of public shaming. If the administration gets to look over this data and in some way compile it and say, here’s the good guys, here’s the bad guys, maybe that gets us somewhere.

Rovner: You know, it strikes me, this has been going on for so very long. I mean, at first it was the employer community actually that did most of the negotiating, not the insurers. Now that it’s required, it’s the insurers who are in charge of it. But it has been just this incredible mountain to scale, and nobody has been able to do it yet.

Kenen: And it’s always been bipartisan.

Rovner: That’s right.

Kenen: And it really goes back to mostly, you know, the late Sen. [Paul] Wellstone [(D-Minn.)] and [Sen. Pete] Domenici [(R-N.M.)], both of whom had close relatives with serious mental illness. You know, Domenici was fairly conservative and traditional conservative, and Wellstone was extremely liberal. And they just said, I mean, this — the parity move began — the original parity legislation, at least the first one I’m aware of. And it was like, I think it was before I came to Washington. I think it was in the ’80s, certainly the early — by the ’90s.

Rovner: It was 1996 when when the first one actually passed. Yeah.

Kenen: I mean, they started talking about it before that because it took them seven or eight years. So this is not a new idea, and it’s not a partisan idea, and it’s still not done. It’s still not there.

Edney: I think there’s some societal shift too, possibly. I mean, we’re seeing it, and maybe we’re getting closer. I’ve seen a lot of billboards lately. I’ve done some work travel. When I’m on the road, I feel like I’m always seeing these billboards that are saying mental health care is health care. And trying to hammer that through has really taken a long time.

Rovner: So while we are on the subject of mental health, one of the good things I think the government has done in the last year is start the 988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline, which turned 1 this month. Early data from shifting the hotline from a 10-digit number to a three-digit one that’s a lot easier to remember does suggest that more people are becoming aware of immediate help and more people are getting it. At the same time, it’s been able to keep up with the demand, even improving call answering times — I know that was a big concern — but there is still a long way to go, and this is hardly a panacea for what we know is an ongoing mental health crisis, right?

Karlin-Smith: This is a good first step to get people in crisis help without some of the risks that we’ve seen. If you go towards the 911 route, sometimes police are not well trained to handle these calls and they end in worse outcomes than necessary. But then you have to have that second part, which is what we were talking about before, which is the access to the longer-term mental health support to actually receive the treatment you need. There’s also some issues with this hotline going forward in terms of long-term funding and, you know, other tweaks they need to work out to make sure, again, that people who are not expecting to interact with law enforcement actually don’t end up indirectly getting there and things like that as well.

Kenen: Do any of you know whether there’s discussion of sort of making people who don’t remember it’s 988 and they call 911 — instead of dispatching cops, are the dispatchers being trained to just transfer it over to 988?

Rovner: That I don’t know.

Kenen: I’m not aware of that. But it just sort of seems common sense.

Rovner: One thing I know they’re working on is, right now I think there’s no geolocation. So when you call 988, you don’t necessarily get automatically referred to resources that are in your community because they don’t necessarily know where you’re calling from. And I know that’s an effort. But yeah, I’m sure there either is or is going to be some effort to interact between 988 and 911.

Kenen: It’s common sense to us. It doesn’t mean it’s actually happening. I mean, this is health care.

Rovner: As we point out, this is mental health care, too.

Kenen: Yeah, right.

Rovner: It’s a step.

Kenen: But I think that, you know, sort of the power of that initial connection is something that’s easy for people to underestimate. I mean, my son in college was doing a helpline during 2020-2021. You know, he was trained, and he was also trained, like, if you think this is beyond what a college-aged volunteer, that if you’re uncertain, you just switched immediately to a mental health professional. But sometimes it’s just, people feel really bad and just having a voice gets them through a crisis moment. And as we all know, there are a lot of people having a lot of crisis moments. I doubt any of us don’t know of a suicide in the last year, and maybe not in our immediate circle, but a friend of a friend, I mean, or, you know — I know several. You know, we are really at a moment of extreme crisis. And if a phone call can help some percentage of those people, then, you know, it needs to be publicized even more and improved so it can be more than a friendly voice, plus a connection to what, ending this repetition of crisis.

Rovner: I feel like the people who worked hard to get this implemented are pretty happy a year later at how, you know — obviously there’s further to go — but they’re happy with how far they’ve come. Well, so, probably the only thing worse than not getting care covered that should be is losing your health coverage altogether, which brings us to the Medicaid unwinding, as states redetermine who’s still eligible for Medicaid for the first time since the start of the pandemic. Our podcast colleague Tami Luhby over at CNN had a story Friday that I still haven’t seen anywhere else. Apparently 12 states have put their disenrollments on pause, says Tami. But we don’t know which 12, according to the KFF disenrollment tracker. As of Wednesday, July 26, at least 3.7 million people have been disenrolled from the 37 states that are reporting publicly, nearly three-quarters of those people for, quote, “procedural reasons,” meaning those people might still be eligible but for some reason didn’t complete the renewal process. The dozen states on pause are apparently ones that HHS [the Department of Health and Human Services] thinks are not following the renewal requirements and presumably ones whose disenrollments are out of line. The Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services, which is overseeing this, is not naming those states, but this points up exactly what a lot of people predicted would happen when states started looking at eligibility again, that a lot of people who were quite likely still eligible were simply going to lose their insurance altogether, right?

Edney: Yeah, it seemed like there was a lot of preparation in some ways to anticipating this. And then, yeah, obviously you had the states that were just raring to go and try to get people off the rolls. And yeah, it would be very interesting to know what those 12 are. I think Tami’s reporting was stellar and she did a really good job. But that’s, like, one piece of the puzzle we’re missing. And I know CMS said that they’re not naming them because they are working well with them to try to fix it.

Rovner: The one thing we obviously do know is that there are several states that are doing this faster than is required — in fact, faster than is recommended. And what we know is that the faster they do it, the more likely they are going to have people sort of fall between the cracks. The people who are determined to be no longer eligible for Medicaid are supposed to be guided to programs for which they are eligible. And presumably most of them, unless they have, you know, gotten a really great job or hit the lottery, will still be eligible at least for subsidies under the Affordable Care Act. And they’re supposed to be guided to those programs. And it’s not clear yet whether that’s happening, although I know there are an awful lot of people who are watching this pretty closely. There were over 90 million people on Medicaid by the end of the pandemic, by the point at which states no longer had to keep people on. That’s a lot more people than Medicaid normally has. It’s usually more around 70 or even 80 million. So there’s excess people. And the question is what’s going to happen to those people and whether they’re going to have some sort of health insurance. And I guess it’s going to be more than a couple of months before we know that. Yes, Joanne.

Kenen: I think that it’s important to remember that there’s no open enrollment season for Medicaid the way there is for the ACA, so that if you’re disenrolled and you get sick and you go to a doctor or a hospital, they can requalify you and you can get it again. The problem is people who think that they’re disenrolled or are told that they’re disenrolled may not realize. They may not go to the doctor because they think they can’t afford it. They may not understand there’s a public education campaign there, too, that I haven’t seen. You know, if you get community health clinics, hospitals, they can do Medicare, Medicaid certification. But it’s dangerous, right? If you think, oh, I’m going to get a bill I can’t afford and I’m just going to see if I can tough this out, that’s not the way to take care of your health. So there’s that additional conundrum. And then, you know, I think that HHS can be flexible on special enrollment periods for those who are not Medicaid-eligible and are ACA-eligible, but most of them are still Medicaid-eligible.

Rovner: If you get kicked off of Medicaid, you get an automatic special enrollment for the ACA anyway.

Kenen: But not forever. If the issue is it’s in a language you don’t speak or at an address you don’t live in, or you just threw it out because you didn’t understand what it was — there is institutional failures in the health care system, and then there’s people have different addresses in three years, particularly poor people; they move around. There’s a communication gap. You know, I talked to a health care system a while ago in Indiana, a safety net, that was going through electronic health records and contacting people. And yet that’s Indiana and they, you know, I think it was Tami who pointed out a few weeks ago on the podcast, Indiana is not doing great, in spite of, you know, really more of a concerted effort than other states or at least other health systems, not that I talk to every single health system in the country. I was really impressed with how proactive they were being. And still people are falling, not just through the cracks. I mean, there’s just tons of cracks. It’s like, you know, this whole landscape of cracks.

Rovner: I think everybody knew this was going to be a big undertaking. And obviously the states that are trying to do it with some care are having problems because it’s a big undertaking. And the states that are doing it with a little bit less care are throwing a lot more people off of their health insurance. And we will continue to follow this. So it is the end of July. I’m still not sure how that happened.

Kenen: ’Cause after June, Julie.

Rovner: Yes. Thank you. July is often when committees in Congress rush to mark up bills that they hope to get to the floor and possibly to the president in that brief period when lawmakers return from the August recess before they go out for the year, usually around Thanksgiving. This year is obviously no exception. While Sen. Bernie Sanders [(I-Vt.)] at the Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee has delayed consideration of that primary care-community health center bill that we talked about last week until September, after Republicans rebelled against what was supposed to have been a bipartisan bill, committee action on pharmacy benefit managers and other Medicare issues did take place yesterday in the Senate Finance Committee and the House Ways and Means Committee. Sarah, you’re following this, right? What’s happening? And I mean, so we’ve now had basically all four of the committees that have some kind of jurisdiction over this who’ve acted. Is something going to happen on PBM regulation this year?

Karlin-Smith: Actually, five committees have acted because the House Ed[ucation] and Workforce Committee has also acted on the topic. So there’s a lot of committees with a stake in this. I think there’s certainly set up for something for the fall, end of the year, to happen in the pharmacy benefit manager space. And there’s a decent amount of bipartisanship around the issue, depending on exactly which committee you’re looking at. But even if the policies that haven’t gotten through haven’t been bipartisan, I think there’s general bipartisan interest among all the committees of tackling the issue. The question is how meaningful, I guess, the policies that we get done are. Right now it looks like what we’re going to end up with is some kind of transparency measure. It reminded me a little bit of our discussion of the mental health stuff [President Joe] Biden is doing going forward. Essentially what it’s going to end up doing is get the government a lot of detailed data about how PBMs operate, how this vertical integration of PBMs — so there’s a lot of common ownership between PBMs, health insurance plans, pharmacies and so forth — may be impacting the cost of our health care and perhaps in a negative way. And then from that point, the idea would be that later Congress could go back and actually do the sort of policy reforms that might be needed. So I know there are some people that are super excited about this transparency because it is such an opaque industry. But at the same point, you can’t kind of go to your constituents and say, “We’ve changed something,” right away or, you know, “We’re going to save you a ton of money with this kind of legislation.”

Rovner: You could tell how worried the PBMs are by how much advertising you see, if you still watch TV that has advertising, which I do, because I watch cable news. I mean, the PBMs are clearly anxious about what Congress might do. And given the fact that, as you point out and as we’ve been saying for years, drug prices are a very bipartisan issue — and it is kind of surprising, like mental health, it’s bipartisan, and they still haven’t been able to push this as far as I think both Democrats and Republicans would like for it to go. Is there anything in these bills that surprised you, that goes further than you expected or less far than expected?

Karlin-Smith: There’s been efforts to sort of delink PBM compensation from rebates. And in the past, when Congress has tried to look into doing this, it’s ended up being extremely costly to the government. And they figured out in this set of policies sort of how to do this without those costs, which is basically, they’re making sure that the PBMs don’t have this perverse incentive to make money off of higher-priced drugs. However, the health plans are still going to be able to do that. So it’s not clear how much of a benefit this will really be, because at this point, the health plans and the PBMs are essentially one and the same. They have the same ownership. But, you know, I do think there has been some kind of creativity and thoughtfulness on Congress’ part of, OK, how do we tackle this without also actually increasing how much the government spends? Because the government helps support a lot of the premiums in these health insurance programs.

Rovner: Yeah. So the government has quite a quite a financial stake in how this all turns out. All right. Well, we will definitely watch that space closely. Let us move on to abortion. In addition to it being markup season for bills like PBMs, it’s also appropriations season on Capitol Hill, with the Sept. 30 deadline looming for a completion of the 12 annual spending bills. Otherwise, large parts of the government shut down, which we have seen before in recent years. And even though Democrats and Republicans thought they had a spending detente with the approval earlier this spring of legislation to lift the nation’s debt ceiling, Republicans in the House have other ideas; they not only want to cut spending even further than the levels agreed to in the debt ceiling bill, but they want to add abortion and other social policy riders to a long list of spending bills, including not just the one for the Department of Health and Human Services but the one for the Food and Drug Administration, which is in the agriculture appropriations, for reasons I’ve never quite determined; the financial services bill, which includes funding for abortion in the federal health insurance plan for government workers; and the spending bill for Washington, D.C., which wants to use its own taxpayer money for abortion, and Congress has been making that illegal pretty much for decades. In addition to abortion bans, conservatives want riders to ban gender-affirming care and even bar the FDA from banning menthol cigarettes. So it’s not just abortion. It’s literally a long list of social issues. Now, this is nothing new. A half a dozen spending bills have carried a Hyde [Amendment] type of abortion ban language for decades, as neither Republicans nor Democrats have had the votes to either expand or take away the existing restrictions. On the other hand, these conservatives pushing all these new riders don’t seem to care if the government shuts down if these bills pass. And that’s something new, right?

Kenen: Over abortion it’s something new, but they haven’t cared. I mean, they’ve shut down the government before.

Rovner: That’s true. The last time was over Obamacare.

Kenen: Right. And, which, the great irony is the one thing they — when they shut down the government because Obamacare was mandatory, not just discretionary funding, Obamacare went ahead anyway. So, I mean, minor details, but I think this is probably going to be an annual battle from now on. It depends how hard they fight for how long. And with some of these very conservative, ultra-conservative lawmakers, we’ve seen them dig in on abortion, on other issues like the defense appointees. So I think it’s going to be a messy October.

Rovner: Yeah, I went back and pulled some of my old clips. In the early 1990s I used to literally keep a spreadsheet, and I think that’s before we had Excel, of which bill, which of the appropriations bills had abortion language and what the status was of the fights, because they were the same fights year after year after year. And as I said, they kind of reached a rapprochement at one point, or not even a rapprochement — neither side could move what was already there. At some point, they kind of stopped trying, although we have seen liberals the last few years try to make a run at the actual, the original Hyde Amendment that bans federal funding for most abortions — that’s in the HHS bill — and unsuccessfully. They have not had the votes to do that. Presumably, Republicans don’t have the votes now to get any of these — at least certainly not in the Senate — to get any of these new riders in. But as we point out, they could definitely keep the government closed for a while over it. I mean, in the Clinton administration, President [Bill] Clinton actually had to swallow a bunch of new riders because either it was that or keep the government closed. So that’s kind of how they’ve gotten in there, is that one side has sort of pushed the other to the brink. You know, everybody seems to assume at this point that we are cruising towards a shutdown on Oct. 1. Does anybody think that we’re not?

Kenen: I mean, I’m not on the Hill anymore, but I certainly expect a shutdown. I don’t know how long it lasts or how you resolve it. And I — even more certain we’ll have one next year, which, the same issues will be hot buttons five weeks before the elections. So whatever happens this year is likely to be even more intense next year, although, you know, next year’s far away and the news cycle’s about seven seconds. So, you know, I think this could be an annual fight and for some time to come, and some years will be more intense than others. And you can create a deal about something else. And, you know, the House moderates are — there are not many moderates — but they’re sort of more traditional conservatives. And there’s a split in the Republican Party in the House, and we don’t know who’s going to fold when, and we don’t — we haven’t had this kind of a showdown. So we don’t really know how long the House will hold out, because some of the more moderate lawmakers who are — they’re all up for reelection next year. I mean, some of them don’t agree. Some of are not as all or nothing on abortion as the —

Rovner: Well, there are what, a dozen and a half Republicans who are in districts that President Biden won who do not want to vote on any of these things and have made it fairly clear to their leadership that they do not want to vote on any of these things. But obviously the conservatives do.

Kenen: And they’ve been public about that. They’ve said it. I mean, we’re not guessing. Some of them spoke up and said, you know, leave it to the states. And that’s what the court decided. And they don’t want to nationalize this even further than it’s nationalized. And I think, you know, when you have the Freedom Caucus taking out Marjorie Taylor Greene, I mean, I have no idea what’s next.

Rovner: Yeah, things are odd. Well, I want to mention one more abortion story this week that I read in the newsletter “Abortion, Every Day,” by Jessica Valenti. And shoutout here: If you’re interested in this issue and you don’t subscribe, you’re missing out. I will include the link in the show notes. The story’s about Texas and the exam to become a board-certified obstetrician-gynecologist. The board that conducts the exam is based in Dallas and has been for decades, and Texas is traditionally where this test has been administered. During the pandemic, the exam was given virtually because nothing was really in person. But this year, if a doctor wants to become board-certified, he or she will have to travel to Texas this fall. And a lot of OB-GYNs don’t want to do that, for fairly obvious reasons, like they are afraid of getting arrested and sent to prison because of Texas’ extreme anti-abortion laws. And yikes, really, this does not seem to be an insignificant legal risk here for doctors who have been performing abortions in other states. This is quite the dilemma, isn’t it?

Karlin-Smith: Well, the other thing I thought was interesting about — read part of that piece — is just, she was pointing out that you might not just want to advertise in a state where a lot of people are anti-abortion that all of these people who perform abortions are all going to be at the same place at the same time. So it’s not just that they’re going to be in Texas. Like, if anybody wants to go after them, they know exactly where they are. So it can create, if nothing else, just like an opportunity for big demonstrations or interactions that might disrupt kind of the normal flow of the exam-taking.

Kenen: Or violence. Most people who are anti-abortion are obviously not violent, but we have seen political violence in this country before. And you just need one person, which, you know, we seem to have plenty of people who are willing to shoot at other people. I thought it was an excellent piece. I mean, I had not come across that before until you sent it around, and there’s a solution — you know, like, if you did it virtually before — and I wasn’t clear, or maybe I just didn’t pay attention: Was this certification or also recertification?

Rovner: No, this was just certification. Recertification’s separate. So these are these are young doctors who want to become board-certified for the first time.

Kenen: But the recertification issues will be similar. And this is a yearly — I mean, I don’t see why they just don’t give people the option of doing it virtual.

Rovner: But we’ll see if they back down. But you know, I had the same thought that Sarah did. It’s like, great, let’s advertise that everybody’s going to be in one place at one time, you know, taking this exam. Well, we’ll see how that one plays out. Well, finally this week, building on last week’s discussion on health and climate change and on drug shortages, a tornado in Rocky Mount, North Carolina, seriously damaged a giant Pfizer drug storage facility, potentially worsening several different drug shortages. Sarah, I remember when the hurricane in Puerto Rico seemed to light a fire under the FDA and the drug industry about the dangers of manufacturing being too centralized in one place. Now we have to worry about storage, too? Are we going to end up, like, burying everything underground in Fort Knox?

Karlin-Smith: I think there’s been a focus even since before [Hurricane] Maria, but that certainly brought up that there’s a lack of redundancy in U.S. medical supply chains and, really, global supply chains. It’s not so much that they need to be buried, you know, that we need bunkers. It’s just that — Pfizer had to revise the numbers, but I think the correct number was that that facility produces about 8% of the sterile kind of injectables used in the U.S. health system, 25% of all Pfizer’s — it’s more like each company or the different plants that produce these drugs, it needs to be done in more places so that if you have these severe weather events in one part of the country, there’s another facility that’s also producing these drugs or has storage. So I don’t know that these solutions need to be as extreme as you brought up. But I think the problem has been that when solutions to drug shortages have come up in Congress, they tend to focus on FDA authorities or things that kind of nibble around the edges of this issue, and no one’s ever really been able to address some of the underlying economic tensions here and the incentives that these companies have to invest in redundancy, invest in better manufacturing quality, and so forth. Because at the end of the day these are often some of the oldest and cheapest drugs we have, but they’re not necessarily actually the easiest to produce. While oftentimes we’re talking about very expensive, high-cost drugs here, this may be a case where we have to think about whether we’ve let the prices drop too low and that’s sort of keeping a market that works if everything’s going perfectly well but then leads to these shortages and other problems in health care.

Rovner: Yeah, the whole just-in-time supply chain. Well, before we leave this, Anna, since you’re our expert on this, particularly international manufacturing, I mean, has sort of what’s been happening domestically lit a fire under anybody who’s also worried about some of these, you know, overseas plants not living up to their safety requirements?

Edney: Well, I think there are these scary things happen like a tornado or hurricane and everybody is kind of suddenly paying attention. But I think that the decision-makers in the White House or on Capitol Hill have been paying attention a little bit longer. We’ve seen these cancer — I mean, for a long time not getting anything done, as Sarah mentioned — but recently, it’s sort of I think the initial spark there was these cancer drug shortages that, you know, people not being able to get their chemo. And that was from an overseas factory; that was from a factory in India that had a lot of issues, including shredding all of their quality testing documents and throwing them in a truck, trying to get it out of there before the FDA inspectors could even see it.

Kenen: That’s always very reassuring.

Edney: It is. Yeah. It makes you feel really good. And one bag did not make it out of the plant in time, so they just threw acid on it instead of letting FDA inspectors look at it. So it’s definitely building in this tornado. And what might come out of it if there are a lot of shortages, I haven’t seen huge concern yet from the FDA on that front. But I think that it’s something that just keeps happening. It’s not letting up. And, you know, my colleagues did a really good story yesterday. There’s a shortage of a certain type of penicillin you give to pregnant people who have syphilis. If you pass syphilis on to your baby, the baby can die or be born with a lot of issues — it’s not like if an adult gets syphilis — and they’re having to ration it, and adults aren’t getting treated fully for syphilis because the babies need it more so, and so this is like a steady march that just keeps going on. And there’s so many issues with the industry, sort of how it’s set up, what Sarah was talking about, that we haven’t seen anybody really be able to touch yet.

Rovner: We will continue to stay on top of it, even if nobody else does. Well, that is this week’s news. Now we will play my interview with KFF’s Céline Gounder, and then we will come back and do our extra credit. I am pleased to welcome back to the podcast Dr. Céline Gounder, KFF senior fellow and editor-at-large for public health, as well as an infectious disease specialist and epidemiologist in New York and elsewhere. Céline is here today to tell us about the second season of her podcast, “Epidemic,” which tells the story of the successful effort to eradicate smallpox and explores whether public health can accomplish such big things ever again. Céline, thank you for joining us.

Céline Gounder: It’s great to be here, Julie.

Rovner: So how did you learn about the last steps in the journey to end smallpox, and why did you think this was a story worth telling broadly now?

Gounder: Well, this is something I actually studied back when I was in college in the ’90s, and I did my senior thesis in college on polio eradication, and this was in the late ’90s, and we have yet to eradicate polio, which goes to show you how difficult it is to eradicate an infectious disease. And in the course of doing that research, I was an intern at the World Health Organization for a summer and then continued to do research on it during my senior year. I also learned a lot about smallpox eradication. I got to meet a lot of the old leaders of that effort, folks like D.A. Henderson and Ciro de Quadros. And fast-forward to the present day: I think coming out of covid we’re unfortunately not learning what at least I think are the lessons of that pandemic. And I think sometimes it’s easier to go back in time in history, and that helps to depoliticize things, when people’s emotions are not running as high about a particular topic. And my thought was to go back and look at smallpox: What are the lessons from that effort, a successful effort, and also to make sure to get that history while we still have some of those leaders with us today.

Rovner: Yes, you’re singing my song here. I noticed the first episode is called “The Goddess of Smallpox.” Is there really a goddess of smallpox?

Gounder: There is: Shitala Mata. And the point of this episode was really twofold. One was to communicate the importance of understanding local culture and beliefs, not to dismiss these as superstitions, but really as ways of adapting to what was, in this case, a very centuries-long reality of living with smallpox. And the way people thought about it was that in some ways it was a curse, but in some ways it was also a blessing. And understanding that dichotomy is also important, whether it’s with smallpox or other infectious diseases. It’s important to understand that when you’re trying to communicate about social and public health interventions.

Rovner: Yeah, because I think people don’t understand that public health is so unique to each place. I feel like in the last 50 years, even through HIV and other infectious diseases, the industrialized world still hasn’t learned very well how to deal with developing countries in terms of cultural sensitivity and the need for local trust. Why is this a lesson that governments keep having to relearn?

Gounder: Well, I would argue we don’t even do it well in our own country. And I think it’s because we think of health in terms of health care, not public health, in the United States. And that also implies a very biomedical approach to health issues. And I think the mindset here is very much, oh, well, once you have the biomedical tools — the vaccines, the diagnostics, the drugs — problem solved. And that’s not really solving the problem in a pandemic, where much of your challenge is really social and political and economic and cultural. And so if you don’t think about it in those terms, you’re really going to have a flat-footed response.

Rovner: So what should we have learned from the smallpox eradication effort that might have helped us deal with covid or might help us in the future deal with the next pandemic?

Gounder: Well, I think one side of this is really understanding what the local culture was, spending time with people in community to build trust. I think we came around to understanding it in part, in some ways, in some populations, in some geographies, but unfortunately, I think it was very much in the crisis and not necessarily a long-term concerted effort to do this. And that I think is concerning because we will face other epidemics and pandemics in the future. So, you know, how do you lose trust? How do you build trust? I think that’s a really key piece. Another big one is dreaming big. And Dr. Bill Foege — he was one of the leaders of smallpox eradication, went on to be the director of the CDC [Centers for Disease Control and Prevention] under President [Jimmy] Carter — one of the pieces of advice he’s given to me as a mentor over the years is you’ve got to be almost foolishly optimistic about getting things done, and don’t listen to the cynics and pessimists. Of course, you want to be pragmatic and understand what will or won’t work, but to take on such huge endeavors as eradicating smallpox, you do have to be very optimistic and remind yourself every day that this is something you can do if you put your mind to it.

Rovner: I noticed, at least in the first couple of episodes that I’ve listened to, the media doesn’t come out of this looking particularly good. You’re both a journalist and a medical expert. What advice do you have for journalists trying to cover big public health stories like this, like covid, like things that are really important in how you communicate this to the public?

Gounder: Well, I think one is try to be hyperlocal in at least some of your reporting. I think one mistake during the pandemic was having this very top-down perspective of “here is what the CDC says” or “here is what the FDA says” or whomever in D.C. is saying, and that doesn’t really resonate with people. They want to see their own experiences reflected in the reporting and they want to see people from their community, people they trust. And so I think that is something that we should do better at. And unfortunately, we’re also somewhat hampered in doing so because there’s been a real collapse of local journalism in most of the country. So it really does fall to places like KFF Health News, for example, to try to do some of that important reporting.

Rovner: We will all keep at it. Céline Gounder, thank you so much for joining us. You can find Season 2 of “Epidemic,” called “Eradicating Smallpox,” wherever you get your podcasts.

Gounder: Thanks, Julie.

Rovner: OK, we’re back. It’s time for our extra credit segment. That’s when we each recommend a story we read this week we think you should read too. As always, don’t worry if you miss it. We will post the links on the podcast page at kffhealthnews.org and in our show notes on your phone or other mobile device. Sarah, why don’t you go first this week?

Karlin-Smith: Sure. I took a look at a piece from Brenda Goodman at CNN called “They Took Blockbuster Drugs for Weight Loss and Diabetes. Now Their Stomachs Are Paralyzed,” and it’s a really good deep dive into — people probably have heard of Ozempic, Wegovy — these what are called GLP-1 drugs that have been used for diabetes. And we’ve realized in higher doses even for people without diabetes, they often are very helpful at losing weight, that that’s partially because they slow the passage of food through your stomach. And there are questions about whether for some people that is leading to stomach paralysis or other extreme side effects. And I think it’s a really interesting deep dive into the complicated world of figuring out, Is this caused by the drug? Is it caused by other conditions that people have? And then how should you counsel people about whether they should receive the drugs and the benefits outweighing the risks? So I think it’s like just a good thing for people to read when you sort of hear all this hype about a product and how great they must be, that it’s always a little bit more complicated than that. And it also brought up another aspect of it, which is how these drugs may impact people who are going to get surgery and anesthesia and just the importance of communicating this to your doctor so they know how to appropriately handle the drugs. Because if you still have food content in your stomach during a surgery, that can be extremely dangerous. And I thought just that aspect alone of this story is really interesting, because they talk about people maybe not wanting to even let their doctors know they’re on these drugs because of stigma surrounding weight loss. And just again, once you get a new medicine that might end up being taken by a lot of people, the complications or, you know, there’s the dynamics of how it impacts other parts of medicine, and we need to adjust.

Rovner: Yeah. And I think the other thing is, you know, we know these drugs are safe because people with diabetes have been taking them for, what, six or seven years. But inevitably, anytime you get a drug that lots more people take, then you start to see the outlier side effects, which, if it’s a lot of people, can affect a lot of people. Joanne.

Kenen: I have a piece from FERN, which is the Food & Environment Reporting Network and in partnership with Yale Environ 360, and it’s by Gabriel Popkin. And it’s called “Can Biden’s Climate-Smart Agriculture Program Live Up to the Hype?” And I knew nothing about smart agriculture, which is why I found this so interesting. So, this is an intersection of climate change and food, which is obviously also a factor in climate change. And there’s a lot of money from the Biden administration for farmers to use new techniques that are more green-friendly because as we all know, you know, beef and dairy, things that we thought were just good for us — maybe not beef so much — but, like, they’re really not so good for the planet we live on. So can you do things like, instead of using fertilizer, plant cover crops in the offseason? I mean, there’s a whole list of things that — none of us are farmers, but there’s also questions about are they going to work? Is it greenwashing? Is it stuff that will work but not in the time frame that this program is funding? How much of it’s going to go to big agribusiness, and how much of it is going to go to small farmers? So it’s one hand, it’s another. You know, there’s a lot of low-tech practices. We’re going to have to do absolutely everything we can on climate. We’re going to have to use a variety of — you know, very large toolkit. So it was interesting to me reading about these things that you can do that make agriculture, you know, still grow our food without hurting the planet, but also a lot of questions about, you know, is this really a solution or not? But, you know, I didn’t know anything about it. So it was a very interesting read.

Rovner: And boy, you think the drug companies are influential on Capitol Hill. Try going with big agriculture. Anna.

Edney: I’m going to toot my own horn for a second here —

Rovner: Please.

Edney: — and do one of my mini-investigations that I did, “Mineral Sunscreens Have Potential Hidden Dangers, Too.” So there’s been a lot of talk: Use mineral sunscreen to save the environment or, you know, for your own health potentially. But they’re white, they’re very thick. And, you know, people don’t want to look quite that ghostly. So what’s been happening lately is they’ve been getting better. But what I found out is a lot of that is due to a chemical — that is what people are trying to move away from, is chemical sunscreens — but the sunscreen-makers are using this chemical called butyloctyl salicylate. And you can read the article for kind of the issues with it. I guess the main one I would point out is, you know, I talked to the Environmental Working Group because they do these verifications of sunscreens based on their look at how good are they for your health, and a couple of their mineral ones had this ingredient in it. So when I asked them about it, they said, Oh, whoops; like, we do actually need to revisit this because it is a chemical that is not recommended for children under 4 to be using on their bodies. So there’s other issues with it, too — just the question of whether you’re really being reef-safe if it’s in there, and other things as well.

Rovner: It is hard to be safe and be good to the planet. My story this week is by Amy Littlefield of The Nation magazine, and it’s called “The Anti-Abortion Movement Gets a Dose of Post-Roe Reality.” It’s about her visit to the annual conference of the National Right to Life Committee, which for decades was the nation’s leading anti-abortion organization, although it’s been eclipsed by some others more recently. The story includes a couple of eye-opening observations, including that the anti-abortion movement is surprised that all those bans didn’t actually reduce the number of abortions by very much. As we know, women who are looking for abortions normally will find a way to get them, either in state or out of state or underground or whatever. And we also learned in this story that some in the movement are willing to allow rape and incest exceptions in abortion bills, which they have traditionally opposed, because they want to use those as sweeteners for bills that would make it easier to enforce bans, stronger bans, things like the idea in Texas of allowing individual citizens to use civil lawsuits and forbidding local prosecutors from declining to prosecute abortion cases. We’re seeing that in some sort of blue cities in red states. It’s a really interesting read and I really recommend it. OK. That is our show for this week. As always, if you enjoyed the podcast, you can subscribe where ever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left us a review; that helps other people find us, too. Special thanks, as always, to our producer, Francis Ying. Also as always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org. Or you can tweet me. I’m @jrovner, and I’m on Bluesky and Threads. Joanne.

Kenen: @joannekenen1 at Threads.

Rovner: Sarah.

Karlin-Smith: I’m @SarahKarlin or @sarah.karlinsmith, depending on which of these many social media platforms you’re looking at, though.

Rovner: Anna.

Edney: @annaedney on Twitter and @anna_edneyreports on Threads.

Rovner: You can always find us here next week where we will always be in your podcast feed. Until then, be healthy.

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Julie Rovner is chief Washington correspondent and host of KFF Health News’ weekly health policy news podcast, “What the Health?” A noted expert on health policy issues, Julie is the author of the critically praised reference book “Health Care Politics and Policy A to Z,” now in its third edition.

2023 will likely be remembered as the summer Arizona sizzled, Vermont got swamped, and nearly the entire Eastern Seaboard, along with huge swaths of the Midwest, choked on wildfire smoke from Canada. Still, none of that has been enough to prompt policymakers in Washington to act on climate issues.

Meanwhile, at a public court hearing, a group of women in Texas took the stand to share wrenching stories about their inability to get care for pregnancy complications, even though they should have been exempt from restrictions under the state’s strict abortion ban.

This week’s panelists are Julie Rovner of KFF Health News, Rachel Cohrs of Stat, Shefali Luthra of The 19th, and Alice Miranda Ollstein of Politico.

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Rachel Cohrs
Stat News

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Shefali Luthra
The 19th

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Alice Miranda Ollstein
Politico

@AliceOllstein

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Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:

• Tensions over abortion access between the medical and legal communities are coming to the fore in the courts, as doctors beg for clarification about bans on the procedure — and conservative state officials argue that the law is clear enough. The risk of being hauled into court and forced to defend even medically justified care could be enough to discourage a doctor from providing abortion care.
• Conservative states are targeting a Biden administration effort to update federal privacy protections, which would make it more difficult for law enforcement to obtain information about individuals who travel outside a state where abortion is restricted for the procedure. Patient privacy is also under scrutiny in Nebraska, where a case involving a terminated pregnancy is further illuminating how willing tech companies like Meta are to share user data with authorities.
• And religious freedom laws are being cited in arguments challenging abortion bans, with plaintiffs alleging the restrictions infringe on their religious rights. The argument appears to have legs, as early challenges are being permitted to move forward in the courts.
• On Capitol Hill, key Senate Democrats are holding up the confirmation process of President Joe Biden’s nominee as director of the National Institutes of Health to press for stronger drug pricing reforms and an end to the revolving-door practice of government officials going to work for private industry.
• And shortages of key cancer drugs are intensifying concerns about drug supplies and drawing attention in Congress. But Republicans are skeptical about increasing the FDA’s authority — and supply-chain issues just aren’t that politically compelling.

Also this week, Rovner interviews Meena Seshamani, director of the Center for Medicare at the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services at the Department of Health and Human Services.

Plus, for “extra credit” the panelists suggest health policy stories they read this week that they think you should read, too:

Julie Rovner: Los Angeles Times’ “Opinion: Crushing Medical Debt Is Turning Americans Against Their Doctors,” by KFF Health News’ Noam N. Levey.

Rachel Cohrs: The New York Times’ “They Lost Their Legs. Doctors and Health Care Giants Profited,” by Katie Thomas, Jessica Silver-Greenberg, and Robert Gebeloff.

Alice Miranda Ollstein: The Atlantic’s “What Happened When Oregon Decriminalized Hard Drugs,” by Jim Hinch.

Shefali Luthra: KFF Health News’ “Medical Exiles: Families Flee States Amid Crackdown on Transgender Care,” by Bram Sable-Smith, Daniel Chang, Jazmin Orozco Rodriguez, and Sandy West.

Also mentioned in this week’s episode:

• Stat’s “From Rapid Cooling Body Bags to ‘Prescriptions’ for AC, Doctors Prepare for a Future of Extreme Heat,” by Karen Pennar.
• Politico’s “The Sleeper Legal Strategy That Could Topple Abortion Bans,” by Alice Miranda Ollstein.

click to open the transcript

Transcript: Let’s Talk About the Weather

KFF Health News’ ‘What the Health?’Episode Title: Let’s Talk About the WeatherEpisode Number: 306Published: July 20, 2023

[Editor’s note: This transcript, generated using transcription software, has been edited for style and clarity.]

Rovner: Hello and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Julie Rovner, chief Washington correspondent for KFF Health News. And I’m joined by some of the best and smartest health reporters in Washington. We’re taping this week on Thursday, July 20, at 10 a.m. As always, news happens fast and things might have changed by the time you hear this. So here we go. We are joined today via video conference by Alice Miranda Ollstein, of Politico.

Alice Miranda Ollstein: Hello.

Rovner: Rachel Cohrs, of Stat News.

Rachel Cohrs: Hi, everybody.

Rovner: And Shefali Luthra of The 19th.

Shefali Luthra: Hello.

Rovner: Later in this episode we’ll have my interview with Meena Seshamani, director of the Center for Medicare at the Center for Medicare & Medicaid Services at the Department of Health and Human Services. She has an update on drug price negotiations, Medicare Advantage payments, and more. But first, this week’s news. So let’s talk about the weather. Seriously, this summer of intense heat domes in the South and Southwest, flash floods in the East, and toxic air from Canadian wildfires almost everywhere below the border has advertised the dangers of climate change in a way scientists and journalists and policymakers could only dream about. The big question, though, is whether it will make any difference to the people who can actually do something about it. I hasten to point out here that in D.C., it’s normal — hot and humid for July, but nothing particularly out of the ordinary, especially compared to a lot of the rest of the country. Is anybody seeing anybody on the Hill who seems at the least alarmed by what’s going on?

Ollstein: Not other than those who normally speak out about these issues. You’re not seeing minds changed by this, even as the reports coming out, especially of the Southwest, are just devastating — I mean, especially for unhoused people, just dying. I was really interested in the story from Stat about doctors moving to start prescribing things to combat heat, like prescribing air conditioners, prescribing cooling packs and other things, really looking at heat as a medical issue and not just a feature of our lives that we have to deal with.

Rovner: Well, emergency rooms are full of patients. You can now burn yourself walking on the sidewalk in Arizona. You know, last summer was not a great summer for a lot of people, particularly in California and in western Canada. But this year, it’s like everywhere across the country, everybody’s having something that’s sort of, oh, a hundred-year something or a thousand-year something. And yet we just sort of continue on blithely.

Ollstein: And just quickly, what really hits me is how much of a vicious cycle it can create, because the more people use air conditioners, those give off heat and make the bigger situation worse. So making it better for yourself makes it worse for others. Same with driving. You know, the worse the weather is, the more people have to drive rather than bike or walk or take public transit. And so it gets into this vicious cycle that can make it worse for everyone and create these so-called heat islands in these cities.

Rovner: All right. Well, let us move on to a more familiar topic: abortion and reproductive health. In case you’re wondering why it’s hard to keep track of where abortion is legal, where it’s banned, and where it’s restricted, let’s talk about Iowa. When we last checked in, last week, state lawmakers had just passed a near-total ban after the state Supreme Court deadlocked over a previous ban and the Republican governor, Kim Reynolds, was poised to sign it. Then what happened?

Luthra: The governor signed the ban right as the hearing for the ban concluded in which Planned Parenthood and another abortion clinic in the state sued, arguing, right, that this is the exact same as the law that was just struck down and therefore should be struck down again. And this judge said that he wouldn’t rush to his ruling. He wanted to, you know, give it the time that it deserved so he wouldn’t be saying anything on Friday, which meant as soon as the law was signed, it took effect. It was in effect for maybe a little over 72 hours, essentially through the weekend. And then on Monday, the judge came and issued a ruling blocking the law. And even that is temporary, right? It only lasts as long as this case is proceeding. And one of the reasons Republicans came back and passed this ban is they are hopeful that something has changed and that this time around the state Supreme Court will let the six-week ban in Iowa stand, which really just would have quite significant implications for the Midwest, where it’s been kind of slower to restrict abortion than the South has been because of the role the courts have played in Ohio, in Iowa, blocking abortion bans, and we could very soon see restrictions in Iowa, in Indiana, potentially in Ohio, depending on how the election later this year goes. And it will look like a very different picture than it did even six months ago.

Rovner: And for the moment, abortion is legal in Iowa, right?

Luthra: Correct.

Rovner: Up to 20 weeks?

Luthra: Up to 20, 22, depending on how you count.

Rovner: But as you say, that could change any day. And it has changed from day to day as we’ve gone on. Well, if that’s not confusing enough, there are a couple of lawsuits that went to court in Texas and Missouri, and neither of them is actually challenging an abortion ban. In Texas, women who were pregnant and unable to get timely care for complications are suing to clarify the state’s abortion ban so patients don’t have to literally wait until they are dying to be treated. And in Missouri, there’s a fight between two state officials over how to describe what a proposed state ballot measure would do, honestly. So what’s the status of those two suits? Let’s start with Texas. That was quite a hearing yesterday.

Luthra: It is really devastating to watch. And the hearing continues today, Thursday. And we are hearing from these women who wanted to have their pregnancies, developed complications where they knew that the fetus would not be viable, could not get care in the state. One of them who came to the State of the Union earlier this year, she had to wait until she was septic before she could get care. Another woman traveled out of state. Another one had to give birth to a baby that died four hours after being born, and she knew that this baby wouldn’t live. And it’s really striking to watch just how obviously difficult it is for these women to relive this thing that happened to them, clearly one of the worst things in their lives, maybe the worst thing. And the state’s arguments are very interesting, too, because they appear to be trying to suggest that it is actually not that the law is unclear, but that doctors are just not doing their jobs and they should do, you know, the hard work of medicine by understanding what exceptions mean and interpreting laws that are always supposed to be a little ambiguous.

Ollstein: So when states were debating abortion bans and really Republicans were tying themselves in knots over this question of exemptions — How should the exemptions be worded? Should there be any exemptions at all? Who should they apply to? — a lot of folks on the left were yelling at the time that that’s the wrong conversation, that exemptions are unworkable; even if you say on paper that people can get an abortion in a medical emergency, it won’t work in practice. And this is really fodder for that argument. This is that argument playing out in real life, where there is a medical exemption on the books, and yet all of these women were not able to get the care they needed, and some have suffered permanent or somewhat permanent repercussions to their health and fertility going forward. As more states debate their own laws, and some states with bans have even tried to go back and clarify the exemptions and change them, I wonder how much this will impact those debates.

Rovner: Yeah, I mean, if you just say that doctors are being, you know, cowards basically by not providing this care, think of it from the doctor’s point of view, and now we see why hospital lawyers are getting involved. Even if there’s a legitimate medical reason, they could get dragged into court and have to pay tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees just to prove that their medical judgment was correct. You can kind of see why doctors are a little bit reluctant to do that.

Ollstein: And just to stress, these laws were not written by doctors. These laws were written by politicians, and they include language that medical groups have pointed out doesn’t translate to the actual practice of medicine. Some of these bans’ exceptions’ language use terms like irreversible, and they’re like, “That’s not something we say in medicine. That doesn’t fit with our training. We don’t think in terms of that.” Also, terms like life-threatening: It’s like, OK, well, is it imminently life-threatening? And even then, what does that mean? How close does someone need to be to losing their life in order to act?

Rovner: And pregnancy itself is life-threatening.

Ollstein: Right. Or something could be life-threatening in a longer-term way, you know, down the road. Other conditions like diabetes or cancer could be life-threatening even if it won’t kill you today or tomorrow. So this is a real battle where medicine meets law.

Rovner: Well, in Missouri, it’s obviously not nearly as dramatic, but it’s also — you can see how this is playing out in a lot of these states. This is basically a fight between the state attorney general and the state auditor over how much an abortion ban might end up costing the state. They’re really sort of fighting this as hard as they can. It’s basically to make it either more or less attractive to voters, right?

Ollstein: It’s similar to some of the gambits we saw in Michigan to keep the measure off the ballot or put it on the ballot in a way that some would say would be misleading to voters. So I think you’re seeing this more and more in these states after so many states, including pretty conservative states, voted in favor of abortion rights last year. You know, the right is afraid of that continuing to happen, and so they’re looking at all of these technical ways — through the courts, through the legislatures, whatever means they can — to influence the process. And Democrats cry that this is antidemocratic, not giving people a say. Republicans claim that they’re preventing big-money outside groups from influencing the process. And I think this is going to be a huge battle. Missouri and Ohio are up next in terms of voting. And after that, you have Florida and Nevada and a bunch of other states in the queue. And so this is going to continue to be something we’re discussing for a while.

Luthra: And to flag the case in Ohio, what’s happening there, right, is the state is having voters vote onto whether to make it harder to pass constitutional amendments. There’s an election in August that would raise the threshold to two-thirds. And what we know from all of the evidence why they don’t typically have August referenda in Ohio is because the turnout is very, very low, and they are expecting that to be very low. And they’ve made it explicit that the reason they want to make it harder to pass constitutional amendments is, in fact, the concern around Ohio’s proposed abortion protection.

Rovner: Of course, that’s what they said about Kansas last year, that people wouldn’t vote because it was in the summer, so — but this is a little bit more obtuse. This is whether or not you’re going to change the standard for passing constitutional change that would enshrine abortion. So, yeah, clearly —

Luthra: It’s hard to get people excited about votes on voting.

Rovner: Yeah, exactly. An underlying theme for most of this year has been efforts by states that restrict or ban abortion to try to prevent or at least keep tabs on patients who leave the state to obtain a procedure where it is legal. Attorneys general in a dozen and a half states are now protesting a Biden administration effort to protect such information under HIPAA, the medical records privacy provisions of the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act. Alice, you’ve written about this. What would the HIPAA update do, and why do the red states oppose it?

Ollstein: The HIPAA update, which was proposed in April, and comment closed in June, and so we’re basically waiting for a final rule — at some point, you know, it can take a while — but it would make it harder for either law enforcement or state officials to obtain medical information about someone seeking an abortion, either out of state or in state under one of these exemptions. This would sort of beef up those protections and require a subpoena or some form of court order in order to get that data. And you have sort of an interesting pattern playing out, which you’ve seen just throughout the Biden administration, where the Biden administration hems and haws and takes an action related to abortion rights and the left says it’s not good enough and the right says it’s wild overreach and unconstitutional and they’re going to sue. And so that’s what I was documenting in my story.

Rovner: Is it 18 red states saying —

Ollstein: Nineteen, yes, yeah.

Rovner: Nineteen red states saying that this is going too far.

Ollstein: They say they want to be able to obtain that data to see if people are breaking the law.

Rovner: Well, Shefali, you wrote this week about sort of a related topic, whether states can use text or social media messages as evidence of criminal activity. That sounds kind of chilling.

Luthra: Yeah, and this is, I think, a really interesting question. We saw it in this case in Nebraska, where a sentencing for one of the defendants is happening today in fact. And I want to be careful in how I talk about this because it concerns a pregnancy that was terminated in April of 2022, before Roe was even overturned. But it sort of offered this test case, this preview for: If you do have law enforcement going after people who have broken a state’s abortion laws, how might they go about doing that? What statutes do they use to prosecute? And what information do they have access to? And the answer is potentially quite a lot. Organizations like Meta and Google are quite cooperative when it comes to government requests for user data. They are quite willing to give over history of message exchanges, history of your searches, or of, you know, where you were tracked on Google Maps. And the bigger question there is how likely are we to see individual prosecutors, individual states, going after patients and their families, their friends for breaking abortion laws? Right now, there’s been some hesitation to do that because the politics are so terrible. But if they do go in that direction, people’s internet user data is, in most states, unprotected. There is no federal law protecting, you know, your Facebook messages. And it could be quite a useful piece of information for people trying to build a case, which should raise concern for anyone trying to access care.

Rovner: Yeah, this is exactly why women were taking their period-tracking apps off of their phones, to worry about the protection of quite personal information. Well, finally this week on the abortion front, we have talked so, so much about how conservative Christians complain that various abortion and even birth control laws violate their religious beliefs. Well, now representatives of several other religions, including Judaism and even some of the more liberal branches of Christianity, say that abortion bans violate their right to practice their religion. This is going on in a bunch of different states. I think the first one we talked about was Florida, I think a year ago. Are any of these lawsuits going anywhere? Do we expect this to end up before the Supreme Court at some point?

Ollstein: So most of them are in state court, not federal. I mean, it’s always possible it could go to the Supreme Court. A couple of them are in federal court and a couple of them have already reached the appeals court level. But the experts I talked to for my story on this said this is mainly going to have an impact in state courts and how they interpret state constitutions. A lot of states have stronger language around religious protections than the federal Constitution, including some laws that pretty conservative state leaders passed in the last few years, and I doubt they expected that same language would be cited to defend abortion rights. But here we are. And yeah, a Missouri court recently ruled that the lawsuit can go forward, the religious challenge to the state’s abortion ban. It’s a coalition of a bunch of different faith leaders bringing that challenge. And in Indiana, they won a preliminary ruling on that case. And there are others pending in Kentucky, Florida, a bunch of other states. And so, yeah, I think this definitely has legs.

Rovner: Yeah, we’re all learning an awful lot about court procedure in lots of different states. Let us move to Capitol Hill, where Congress is in its annual July race to the August recess. Seriously, this is actually a month in which Congress typically does get a lot done. Maybe not so much this year. One perhaps unexpected holdup in the U.S. Senate is where the confirmation of Monica Bertagnolli, President Biden’s nominee to head the National Institutes of Health, is being held up not by a Republican but by two Democrats: health committee chair Bernie Sanders, another member of the committee, Elizabeth Warren. Rachel, what is going on with this?

Cohrs: Sen. Bernie Sanders has long wanted the Biden administration to be more aggressive on drug pricing. And there is one issue in particular that Sen. Sanders has wanted the NIH specifically to use to challenge drug companies’ patents or at least put some pricing protections in there for drugs that are developed using publicly funded research. And the laws that the NIH potentially could use to challenge these companies for high-priced medications have never been used in this way. And Sen. Sanders is using his bully pulpit and the main leverage he has, which is over nominations, to get the White House’s attention. And I think the White House’s position here is that they have done more than any administration in the past 20 years to lower drug prices.

Rovner: Which is true.

Cohrs: It is true. And — but Sen. Sanders still is not satisfied with that and wants to see commitments from the White House and from NIH to do more.

Rovner: And Sen. Elizabeth Warren.

Cohrs: Sen. Elizabeth Warren, yes, who my colleague Sarah Owermohle first reported had some concerns over the revolving door at NIH and wanted a commitment that the nominee wouldn’t go to lobby or work for a large pharmaceutical company for four years after leaving the position, and I don’t know that she’s agreed to that yet. So I don’t see where this resolves. It’s tough, because we’re looking so close to an election, and I think there are big questions about what breaks this logjam. But it certainly has slowed down what looked like a very smooth and noncontroversial nomination process.

Rovner: Yeah, I mean, obviously, you know, we’ve seen many, many times over the years nominations held up for other reasons — I mean, basically using them as leverage to get some policy aim. It’s more rare that you see it on the president’s own party but obviously, you know, not completely unprecedented. Certainly in this case we have a lot of things to be worked out there. Well, Sen. Sanders also seems to be threatening the reauthorization of one of his very pet programs, the bipartisanly popular community health centers. His staff this week put out a draft bill and announced a markup before sharing it with Republicans on the committee. Now Ranking Member Bill Cassidy, who also supports the community health centers program — almost everybody in Congress supports the community health centers program — Cassidy complains there’s no budget score, that the bill includes programs from outside the committee’s jurisdiction, and other details that can be very important. Is Sanders trying to make things partisan on purpose, or is this just sloppy staff work?

Cohrs: Honestly, I can’t answer that question for you, but I don’t think that it’s going to result in a productive outcome for the community health centers. And I think we have in recent years seen significant cooperation between the chair and ranking member, but with Lamar Alexander, with Richard Burr, with Patty Murray, you know, we have seen a lot civility on this committee in the recent past, and that appears to have ended. And I think Sen. Cassidy’s response that he hadn’t seen the legislation publicly was, I think, telling. We don’t usually see that kind of public fighting from a committee chair.

Rovner: He put out a press release.

Cohrs: Right, put out a press release. Yeah. This is not what we usually see in these committees. And it is true that Sen. Sanders’ bill is so much more money than I think is usually given to community health centers in this reauthorization process. I think it’s true that the bill that he dropped touches issues that would anger almost every other stakeholder in the health care system. And I don’t think Sen. Cassidy quite envisioned that. And he introduced his own bill that would have introduced —

Rovner: Cassidy introduced his own bill.

Cohrs: Yes, Sen. Cassidy introduced his own bill last week that would have continued on with what the House Energy and Commerce Committee had passed unanimously earlier this summer to give community health centers a more modest boost in funding for two years.

Rovner: And obviously, there’s some urgency to this because the authorization runs out at the end of September and now we’re in July and they’re going to go away for August. So this is obviously something else that we’re going to need to keep a fairly close eye on. Well, meanwhile, elsewhere, as in at the Senate Finance Committee, which oversees Medicare and Medicaid, we’re starting to see legislation to regulate PBMs — pharmacy benefit managers — or are we? Rachel, we’ve come at this several times this year. How close are we getting?

Cohrs: We’re getting closer. And I think that two key committees are really feeling the heat to get their proposals out there before the end of the year. The first, like you mentioned, was the Senate Finance Committee, which is planning a markup next week, right before senators leave for August recess. They’ve asked for feedback from CBO [the Congressional Budget Office] around the end of August recess so that they’ll be ready to go. But I think it’s no secret that their delay in marking anything up or introducing anything has slowed down this process. And in the House, I know the Ways and Means Committee is trying to put together their own proposal and find time for a markup, whereas the House Energy and Commerce Committee, which also has jurisdiction over many of these issues, is frustrated, because they got their bill introduced, they had all the full regular order of subcommittee and then full committee hearings and then markups, got this bill unanimously out of their committee, and now everyone’s kind of waiting around on these two committees with jurisdiction over the Medicare program to see what they’re going to put together before any larger package can be compiled.

Rovner: Well, you know things are heating up when you start seeing PBM ads all over cable news. So even if you don’t understand what the issue is, you know that it’s definitely in play on Capitol Hill. Well, while we’re on the subject of drug prices, we have another lawsuit trying to block Medicare’s drug price negotiation, this one filed by Johnson & Johnson. Why so many? Wouldn’t these drug companies have more clout if they got together on one big suit, or is there some strategy here to spread it out and hope somebody finds a sympathetic judge?

Ollstein: Yes, I think the latter is exactly what they’re doing, because if they were to all kind of band together, then it would be putting all their eggs in one basket. And this way we see most of the companies have filed in different jurisdictions. I think Johnson & Johnson did file in the same court as Bristol Myers Squibb did, so I think it’s not a perfect trend. But generally what we are seeing is that the trade groups like the [U.S.] Chamber of Commerce and PhRMA [the Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America] kind of have their own arguments that they’re making in different venues. The drug manufacturers themselves have their own arguments that they’re making in their own venues, and they’re spreading out across the country in some typically more liberal courts and circuits and some more conservative. But I think that it’s important to note that the Chamber of Commerce so far is the only one that’s asked for a preliminary injunction, in Ohio. That is kind of the motion that, if it’s approved, could potentially put a stop to this program even beginning to go into effect. So they’ve asked for that by Oct. 1.

Rovner: And remember, I guess we’re supposed to see the first 10 drugs from negotiation in September, right?

Cohrs: By Sept. 1, yes.

Rovner: By Sept. 1.

Cohrs: Pretty imminently here.

Rovner: Also happening soon. Well, before we stop with the news this week, I do want to talk briefly about drug shortages. This has come up from time to time, both before and during the pandemic, obviously, when we had supply chain issues. But it seems like something new is happening. Some of these shortages seem to be coming because generic makers of some drugs just don’t find them lucrative enough to continue to make them. Now we’re looking at some major shortages of key cancer drugs, literally causing doctors to have to choose who lives and who dies. Are there any proposals on Capitol Hill for addressing this? It’s kind of flying below the radar, but it’s a pretty big deal.

Cohrs: I think we’ve seen Congressman Frank Pallone make this his pet issue in the reauthorization of PAHPA [Pandemic and All-Hazards Preparedness Act], which is the pandemic preparedness bill, which also expires on Sept. 30. So, you know, they have a full plate.

Rovner: Which we will talk about next week because they’re marking it up today.

Cohrs: Exactly. Yes. So but what we have seen is that Democrats in the House Energy and Commerce Committee have made this a top priority to at least have something on drug shortages in PAHPA. And I think my colleague John Wilkerson watched a hearing this week and noted that the chair of the committee, Cathy McMorris Rodgers, seemed more open to adding something than she had been in the past. But again, I think it’s kind of uncertain what we’ll see. And Sen. Bernie Sanders did add a couple of drug shortage policies to his version of PAHPA in the HELP Committee [Senate Committee on Health, Education, Labor and Pensions]. So I think we are seeing some movement on at least some policies to address it. But the problem is that the supply chain is not sexy and Republicans are not crazy about the idea of giving the FDA more authority. I think there is just so much skepticism of these public health agencies. It’s a hard systemic issue to crack. So I think we may see something, but it’s unclear whether any of this would provide any immediate relief.

Rovner: Everybody agrees that there’s a problem and nobody agrees on how to solve it. Welcome to Capitol Hill. OK, that is this week’s news. Now we will play my interview with Medicare chief Meena Seshamani, and then we’ll come back and do our extra credit. I am pleased to welcome to the podcast Meena Seshamani, deputy administrator and director of the Center for Medicare at the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services at the Department of Health and Human Services. That must be a very long business card.

Meena Seshamani: [laughs]

Rovner: Translated, that means she’s basically in charge of the Medicare program for the federal government. She comes to this job with more than the requisite experience. She is a physician, a head and neck surgeon in fact, a PhD health economist, a former hospital executive, and a former top administrator there at HHS. Meena, welcome to “What the Health?” We are so happy to have you.

Seshamani: Thank you so much for having me, Julie.

Rovner: So, our podcast listeners will know, because we talk about it so much, that the biggest Medicare story of 2023 is the launch of a program to negotiate prescription drug prices and hopefully bring down the price of some of those drugs. Can you give us a quick update on how that’s going and when patients can expect to start to see results?

Seshamani: Absolutely. The new prescription drug law, the Inflation Reduction Act, really has made historic changes to the Medicare program. And to your point, people are seeing those results right now. There is now a $35 cap on what someone will pay out-of-pocket for a month’s supply of covered insulin at the pharmacy, which is huge. I’ve met with people all over the country. Sometimes people are spending up to $400 for a month’s supply of this lifesaving medication. Also, vaccines at no cost out-of-pocket. And a lot of this leads to what you’re mentioning with the drug negotiation program, a historic opportunity for Medicare to negotiate drugs. In January, we put out a timeline of the various pieces that we’re putting in place to stand up this negotiation program. Along that timeline, we have released guidance that describes the process that we will undergo to negotiate, what we’ll think about as we’re engaging in negotiation. And the first 10 drugs for negotiation that are selected will be announced on Sept. 1. And that will then lead into the negotiation process.

Rovner: And as we’ve mentioned — I think it was on last week’s podcast — there’s a lot of lawsuits that are trying to stop this. Are you confident that you’re going to be able to overcome this and keep this train on the tracks?

Seshamani: Well, we don’t generally comment on the lawsuits. I will say that we are implementing this law in the most thoughtful manner possible. From the day that the law was enacted, we have been meeting with drug manufacturers, health plans, patient groups, health care providers, you know, experts in the field, to really understand the complexity of the drug space and what we can do with this opportunity to really improve things, improve access and affordability to have innovative therapies for the cures that people need.

Rovner: Well, while we are on that subject, we — not just Medicare, but society at large — is facing down a gigantic conundrum. The good news is that we’re finally starting to see drugs that can treat or possibly cure such devastating ailments as Alzheimer’s disease and obesity. But those drugs are currently so expensive, and the population that could benefit from them is so large, they could basically bankrupt the entire health care system. How is Medicare approaching that? Obviously, in the Alzheimer’s space, that could be a very big deal.

Seshamani: Well, Julie, we are committed to helping ensure that people have timely access to innovative treatments that can lead to improved care and better outcomes. And in doing this, we take into account what the Medicare law enables coverage for and what the evidence shows. So with Alzheimer’s, CMS underwent a national coverage determination. And consistent with that, Medicare is covering the drug when a physician and clinical team participates in the collection of evidence about how these drugs work in the real world, also known as a registry. And this is very important because it will enable us to gather more information on patient outcomes as we continue to see innovations in this space. And you mentioned obesity. In the Medicare law, there is a carve-out for drugs for weight loss.

Rovner: A carve-out meaning you can’t cover them.

Seshamani: Correct. It says that the Medicare Part D prescription drug program will not cover drugs for weight loss. So we are looking at the increasing evidence. And for example, where there is a drug that is used for diabetes, for example, you know, then it can certainly be covered. And this is an area that we are continuing to partner with our colleagues in the FDA on and that we’d like to partner with the broader community to continue to build the evidence base around benefits for the Medicare population as we continue to evaluate where we want to make sure that people have access.

Rovner: But are you thinking sort of generally about what to do about these drugs that cost sometimes tens of thousands of dollars a year, hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, that half the population could benefit from? I mean, that cannot happen, right, financially?

Seshamani: Well, Julie, this is where the new provisions in the new drug law really come into play. Thinking from access for people for the high-cost drugs, I think we all know what a financial strain the high cost of drugs have created for our nation’s seniors, where now, in 2025, there will be a $2,000 out-of-pocket cap, that people will not have to pay out-of-pocket more than $2,000, which enables them to access drugs. And on the other side, as we talked about with drug negotiation, where for drugs that have been in the market for seven years or 11 years, if they are high-cost drugs, they could potentially be selected for negotiation where we can then, you know, as we laid out in the guidance that we put out, look at what is the benefit that this drug provides to a population? What are the therapeutic alternatives? And then also consider things like what’s the cost of producing that drug and distributing it? How much federal support was given for the research and development of that drug? And how much is the total R & D costs? So I think that there are several tools that we’ve been given in the Inflation Reduction Act that demonstrate how we are continuing to think about how we can ensure that Medicare is delivering for people now and in the future.

Rovner: Well, speaking of things that are popular but also expensive, let’s talk briefly about Medicare Advantage. More and more beneficiaries are opting for private plans over traditional, fee-for-service Medicare. But the health plans have figured out lots of ways to game the system to make large profits basically at taxpayers’ expense. Is there a long-term plan for Medicare Advantage or are we just going to continue to play whack-a-mole, trying to plug the loopholes that the plans keep finding?

Seshamani: You know, as now we have 50% of the population in Medicare Advantage, Medicare Advantage plays a critical role in advancing our vision for the Medicare program around advancing health equity, expanding access to care, driving innovation, and enabling us to be good stewards of the Medicare dollar. And that vision that we have is reflected in all of the policies that we have put forward to date. And I might add that those policies really have been informed by engagement with everyone who’s interested in Medicare Advantage. We did a request for comment and got more than 4,000 suggestions from people. This has now come out in recent policies like cracking down on misleading marketing practices so that people can get the plan that best suits their needs; ensuring clear rules of the road for prior authorization and utilization management so we can make sure that people are accessing the medically necessary care that they need; things like improving network adequacy, particularly in behavioral health, so people can access the health care providers in the networks of the plans; and then the work that we’re doing around payment, to make sure that we’re paying accurately, updating the years that we use for data, looking at the coding patterns of Medicare Advantage. And again, this is all work that is important to make sure that the program is really serving the people in the Medicare program.

Rovner: So, as you know, we’ve done big investigative projects here at KFF Health News about both medical debt and nonprofit hospitals not living up to their responsibilities to the community. As the largest single payer of hospitals, what is Medicare doing to try and address requirements for charity care, for example?

Seshamani: Well, the. IRS oversees the requirements for community benefit, which is how hospitals maintain or get a nonprofit status. We have certainly worked with the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau and the Department of Treasury on, for example, issuing a request for information, seeking public comment on, you know, medical credit cards. But even beyond that, I think this is an example of where we need to bring more payment accuracy and transparency in the health care system. So, for example, we have recently just proposed strengthening hospital price transparency so that people can know what is the cost of services, standard charges that hospitals provide. We also are adding quality measures to hospitals, particularly around issues around health equity, making sure that hospitals are screening patients for social needs. And we’re also tying increasingly our payment programs to making sure that those underserved populations are receiving excellent care, so again, really trying to drive transparency, quality, and access through all of the work that we’re doing with hospitals.

Rovner: But can you leverage Medicare’s power? Obviously, you know, that was what created EMTALA [the Emergency Medical Treatment and Labor Act], was leveraging Medicare’s power. Can you leverage it here to try and push some of these hospitals to do things they seem reluctant to do?

Seshamani: Where we have our levers in the Medicare program, we absolutely are working with hospitals around issues of equity, so as I mentioned, you know, really embedding equity not only in our quality requirements but also in hospital operations — for example, that as part of their operations they need to be looking at health equity. You know, where we are looking at how they are providing care and addressing issues of patient safety. So, we continue to look into all of these angles, and where we can support good practices. For example, we just proposed in our inpatient prospective payment system rule that when hospitals are taking care of homeless patients, that can be considered in their payment, because we have found through our analyses that additional resources are being used to make sure that those patients are supported for all of their needs, and we’re encouraging hospitals to code for these social needs so that we can continue to assess with them where resources and supports are needed to provide the kind of care that we all want for our populations.

Rovner: Last question, and I know that this is big, so it’s almost unfair. One of the reasons we know that it’s getting so expensive to manage medical costs is the increasing involvement of private equity in health care. What’s the Biden administration doing to address this growing profit motive?

Seshamani: Yeah, Julie, I’ll come back to, you know, what I alluded to before around transparency. We are really committed to transparency in health care, and we are continuing to focus on gathering data that sheds light on what is happening in the health care market so that we can be good stewards of the taxpayer dollar. So I mentioned our work in hospital price transparency, where we have streamlined the enforcement process; we have proposed to require standard ways that hospitals are reporting their charges and standard locations where they have to put a footer on the hospital’s homepage so that people can find that data easily. In Medicare Advantage, we are requiring more reporting for the medical loss ratio for plans to report spending on supplemental benefits like dental, vision, etc. And we really want to hone in on where else we can gather more data to be able to enable all of us to see what is happening in this dynamic health care market; what’s working? What isn’t? And so we’re very interested in getting ideas.from everyone of where more data can be helpful to enable us to then enact policies that can make sure that the health care industries and the market are really serving people in the most effective way possible.

Rovner: Well, you’ve got a very big job, so I will let you get back to it. Thank you so much, Meena Seshamani.

Seshamani: Thank you for having me.

Rovner: OK, we’re back and it’s time for our extra credit segment. That’s when we each recommend a story we read this week we think you should read too. As always, don’t worry if you miss it. We will post the links on the podcast page at kffhealthnews.org and in our show notes on your phone or other mobile device. Shefali, why don’t you go first this week?

Luthra: Sure. So mine is from KFF Health News by a dream team, Bram Sable-Smith, Daniel Chang, Jazmin Orozco Rodriguez, and Sandy West. The headline is “Medical Exiles: Families Flee States Amid Crackdown on Transgender Care.” And I mean, it’s exactly what it sounds like. It’s this really person-grounded, quite deeply reported story about how restrictions on gender-affirming health care, especially for young people, are forcing families to leave their homes. And this is a really tough thing for people to do, you know, leave somewhere where you’ve lived for 10 years or longer and go somewhere where you don’t have ties. Moving is quite expensive. And I think this is a really important look at something that we anecdotally know is happening, haven’t seen enough really great deep dives on, and is something that potentially will happen more and more as people are forced to leave their homes if they can afford to do so because they don’t feel safe there anymore.

Rovner: Yeah, and this is the issue of doing these social issues state by state by state, just what’s happening now. Alice.

Ollstein: So I chose a piece from The Atlantic called “What Happened When Oregon Decriminalized Hard Drugs,” by Jim Hinch. It was really fascinating. On the one side, they say this is evidence that the policy has failed, that decriminalizing possession of small amounts of cocaine, heroin, all hard drugs, has been a failure because overdoses have actually gone up since then. But other experts quoted in this article say that, look, we tried the punitive war on drugs model for decades and decades and decades before declaring it a failure; how can we evaluate this after just a few years? It just takes more time to make this transition and takes more time to, you know, ramp up treatment and services for people, and because this happened three years ago, it was disrupted by the pandemic and, you know, services were not able to reach people, etc. So a really fascinating look.

Rovner: Yes, it’s quite the social experiment that’s going on in Oregon. Rachel.

Cohrs: So mine is from The New York Times, a group of reporters and a new series called “Operating Profits.” And the headline is “They Lost Their Legs. Doctors and Health Care Giants Profited.” And I think I’m just really excited to see more about this line of reporting about overutilization in health care and how certain payment incentives — I mean, they made a story about payment incentives in hospital outpatient departments and how pay rates change really personal and interesting, and it’s important. So, I mean, all these really dense rules that we’re seeing drop this summer do really have implications for patients. And there are bad actors out there who are kind of capitalizing on that. So I felt it was like really responsible reporting, mostly focused on one physician who, you know, was doing procedures that he shouldn’t have and other doctors ultimately were left to clean up the damage for these patients. And they had amputations that they maybe shouldn’t have had, which is such a serious and devastating consequence. I thought that was very important reporting, and I’m excited to see what’s next.

Rovner: Yeah, I’m looking forward to seeing the rest of the series. Well, my story this week is in the Los Angeles Times from my KFF Health News colleague Noam Levey, who’s been working on a giant project on medical debt. It’s called “Crushing Medical Debt Is Turning Americans Against Their Doctors.” And it points out something I hadn’t really thought about before, that outrageous and unexpected bills are undermining public confidence in medical providers and the medical system writ large. And so far, nobody’s doing very much about it. To quote from Noam’s piece, “Hospitals and doctors blame the government for underpaying them and blame insurers for selling plans with unaffordable deductibles. Insurers blame providers for obscene prices. Everyone blames drug companies.” Well, it’s going to take a lot of time to dig out of this hole, but probably it would help if everybody stopped digging. OK. That is our show for this week. As always, if you enjoy the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left us a review; that helps other people find us too. Special thanks, as always, to our producer, Francis Ying. Also, as always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org. Or you can tweet me. I’m still @jrovner, and I’m on Threads @julie.rovner. Shefali.

Luthra: I’m @shefalil.

Rovner: Alice.

Ollstein: @AliceOllstein.

Rovner: Rachel.

Cohrs: I’m @rachelcohrs.

Rovner: We will be back in your feed next week. Until then, be healthy.

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Julie Rovner is chief Washington correspondent and host of KFF Health News’ weekly health policy news podcast, “What the Health?” A noted expert on health policy issues, Julie is the author of the critically praised reference book “Health Care Politics and Policy A to Z,” now in its third edition.

It took more than two years, but the Biden administration has finally kept a promise made by then-candidate Joe Biden to roll back the Trump administration’s expansion of short-term, limited-duration health plans. The plans have been controversial because, while they offer lower premiums than more comprehensive health plans, they offer far fewer benefits and are not subject to the consumer protections of the Affordable Care Act.

Also this week, the FDA for the first time approved the over-the-counter sale of a hormonal birth control pill. With more states imposing restrictions on abortion, backers of the move say making it easier to prevent pregnancy is necessary now more than ever.

This week’s panelists are Julie Rovner of KFF Health News, Alice Miranda Ollstein of Politico, Amy Goldstein of The Washington Post, and Rachel Cohrs of Stat.

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Alice Miranda Ollstein
Politico

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Amy Goldstein
The Washington Post

@goldsteinamy

Read Amy's Stories

Rachel Cohrs
Stat News

@rachelcohrs

Read Rachel's stories

Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:

• The FDA’s much-anticipated approval of the first over-the-counter hormonal birth control pill followed the advice of its outside advisory committee. The pill, Opill, will be available on shelves without age restrictions.
• The Biden administration announced moves to limit so-called junk plans on insurance marketplaces. The Trump administration had dropped many restrictions on the plans, which were originally intended to be used for short-term coverage gaps.
• As the nation continues to settle into a post-Dobbs patchwork of abortion laws, the Iowa Legislature approved a six-week ban on the procedure. And an Idaho law offers a key test of cross-border policing of abortion seekers, as other states watch how it unfolds.
• In other news, Georgia’s Medicaid work requirements took effect July 1, implementing new restrictions on who is eligible for the state-federal program for people with low incomes or disabilities. And the Supreme Court’s decision on affirmative action has the potential to shape the health care workforce, which research shows could have implications for the quality of patient care and health outcomes.

Also this week, Rovner interviews KFF Health News’ Bram Sable-Smith, who reported and wrote the latest KFF Health News-NPR “Bill of the Month” feature, about a patient who lacked a permanent mailing address and never got the hospital bills from an emergency surgery — but did receive a summons after she was sued for the debt. If you have an outrageous or exorbitant medical bill you want to share with us, you can do that here.

Plus, for “extra credit,” the panelists suggest health policy stories they read this week that they think you should read, too:

Julie Rovner: KFF Health News’ “Doctor Lands in the Doghouse After Giving Covid Vaccine Waivers Too Freely,” by Brett Kelman.  

Rachel Cohrs: ProPublica’s “How Often Do Health Insurers Say No to Patients? No One Knows,” by Robin Fields, and Stat’s “How UnitedHealth’s Acquisition of a Popular Medicare Advantage Algorithm Sparked Internal Dissent Over Denied Care,” by Casey Ross and Bob Herman.  

Amy Goldstein: The New York Times’ “Medicare Advantage Plans Offer Few Psychiatrists,” by Reed Abelson.  

Alice Miranda Ollstein: The Wall Street Journal’s “America Is Wrapped in Miles of Toxic Lead Cables,” by Susan Pulliam, Shalini Ramachandran, John West, Coulter Jones, and Thomas Gryta.  

Also mentioned in this week’s episode:

• Stat’s “How One Medical School Became Remarkably Diverse — Without Considering Race in Admissions,” by Usha Lee McFarling.
• The New York Times’ “With End of Affirmative Action, a Push for a New Tool: Adversity Scores, by Stephanie Saul.

click to open the transcript

Transcript: The Long Road to Reining In Short-Term Plans 

KFF Health News’ ‘What the Health?’Episode Title: The Long Road to Reining In Short-Term PlansEpisode Number: 305Published: July 13, 2023

[Editor’s note: This transcript, generated using transcription software, has been edited for style and clarity.]

Julie Rovner: Hello and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Julie Rovner, chief Washington correspondent for KFF Health News. And I’m joined by some of the best and smartest health reporters in Washington. We’re taping this week on Thursday, July 13, at 10 a.m. As always, news happens fast and things might have changed by the time you hear this. So here we go. Today we are joined via video conference by Alice Miranda Ollstein of Politico.

Alice Miranda Ollstein: Good morning.

Rovner: Rachel Cohrs of Stat News.

Rachel Cohrs: Hi, everybody.

Rovner: And Amy Goldstein of The Washington Post.

Goldstein: Good to be with you.

Rovner: Later in this episode, we’ll have my interview with KFF Health News’ Bram Sable-Smith, who wrote the latest KFF Health News-NPR “Bill of the Month.” The hospital that provided care to this month’s patient couldn’t find her to send her a bill, but the debt collectors sure could. But first, this week’s news. Actually, it’s more like the last month’s news because we actually haven’t talked about news in a while. So we’re going to try to hit a bunch of items in sort of a lightning round. Let’s start with something we knew was coming. We just didn’t know exactly when. Last week, the Biden administration finally cracked down on short-term health plans. Those are the ones that are not subject to the strict rules of the Affordable Care Act. Amy, you wrote about this. What are short-term plans, and why have they been so controversial?

Goldstein: Well, short-term plans — they’re called short-term limited-duration plans, and really terrible argot, but that’s their name. They’ve been around as an alternative to plans that are meeting the rules of the Affordable Care Act. They were originally designed for people to use as small bridges between, say, when they lost a job and they were about to get a new job and they needed something in the interim to provide health coverage. Republicans, during the time that they were trying very hard several years ago to get rid of as much as the Affordable Care Act as they could — they didn’t succeed at a lot of that, but they did succeed during the Trump administration at lengthening the time that people could have these plans. So they extended them from what had been a three-month maximum during the latter part of the [Barack] Obama administration to 12 months, and then they were renewable for up to three years. And Democrats began calling these “junk plans,” saying that people didn’t exactly know what they were buying, that the premiums were low but the benefits were small and if people got sick and really needed a lot of care they could be stuck paying for a lot of it on their own.

Rovner: And these were the very plans that the ACA was kind of designed to get rid of, right, where people would say, I have this great health plan, it only costs me $50 a month — but by the way, it only provides $500 worth of care.

Goldstein: Well, there’s that. And the other thing that the ACA was designed to do is treat people with preexisting conditions equally. And these plans do not have to do that. Some do, but they’re not required to. So President [Joe] Biden, since he was candidate Biden running for the 2020 election, has been saying for quite a while that he was going to knock down the duration of these plans, and some of his fellow Democrats have been leaning on him: “Why haven’t you done it yet?” And last week, he finally did. He didn’t bring it exactly to where the Obama administration had it, but he brought them down to three months with a one-month extension, so a total of four months.

Rovner: And I guess the resistance here is that they’re still kind of popular, right, for people who think they would rather pay very low premiums for very few benefits?

Goldstein: Well, the catch is that we don’t really know how popular they are because there aren’t very reliable data on how many people have these. But the presumption is that some people like them.

Rovner: All right, well we will see what happens with this time they’re trying to crack down. Let us move on to abortion and reproductive rights. We will start with the breaking news. The Food and Drug Administration just this morning approved Opill, which is the first over-the-counter birth control pill. Alice, we’ve known this was coming, right?

Ollstein: Yes, we did. We thought it would be a little later in the summer. But the decision itself reflects what the FDA’s outside advisory panel strongly recommended, which is to make these pills available over the counter without a prescription and without an age restriction, which was one looming question over this process.

Rovner: Yeah, I guess, Rachel, I mean, the issue here has been can women be trusted enough to know when they shouldn’t take birth control pills because they are contraindicated for some people?

Rachel Cohrs: Right. And I think that certainly it’s important to read through the information. There’s a question as to whether women will do that. And one part of the release that stood out to me is that the specific type of pill that this is requires women to take it around the same time every day, which is not necessarily the case for all birth control pills. And I think there’s a little bit more flexibility than there used to be with this kind of pill. But it is just important that all of this communication happens. And if there’s not a doctor or pharmacist in the middle, I think it will be kind of interesting to see how this plays out in the real world.

Rovner: Well, while this could definitely help people prevent pregnancy who don’t want to get pregnant, there’s certainly a lot of action still in the states around abortion. We’re going to start in Iowa, which since the last time we spoke has done basically a 360 on abortion. Last month, the state Supreme Court deadlocked on whether to reinstate a 2018 ban on almost all abortions. That left a lower court order blocking the ban intact, so abortion remained legal in Iowa. But anti-abortion Gov. Kim Reynolds refused to take no for an answer. She called a special session of the state legislature, which on Tuesday essentially repassed the 2018 ban. It’s supposed to take effect as soon as the governor signs it, which could be as soon as Friday. But first it goes back to court, right, Alice?

Ollstein: Right. As with all of these things, there’s just a lot of back-and-forth before it’s final. Groups have already filed a lawsuit. And, you know, because the courts’ sort of mixed treatment of the previous version of this, we sort of don’t know what’s going to happen. But the law could go into effect and then be blocked by courts later or it could be blocked before it goes into effect. There’s a lot of different ways this could go, but this is one of several states where new restrictions are coming online. We’re more than a year out from the Dobbs decision now, and things are not settled at all. Things are still flipping back and forth in different states.

Rovner: Yeah, there’s a lot of states where old restrictions came into effect and then were blocked and now they’re putting new restrictions and they might be blocked. Well, turning to another “I” state, this time Idaho, where the legislature this spring passed a first-in-the-nation bill attempting to criminalize the act of helping a minor cross state lines for an abortion, even if the abortion is legal in the state the minor travels to. Now, abortion rights supporters have filed a first-in-the-nation lawsuit to block the first-in-the-nation law. This could have really big ramifications. This is different from a lot of what’s going on in a lot of the other states, right?

Ollstein: Yeah. Over the last year, there’s been a lot of fear on the left of states reaching across their borders to try to police abortion. And it hasn’t really happened yet that we have seen. And so this, I think, is a key test of whether more states will attempt to go in this direction. You know, a lot of blue states passed sort of shield laws for patients, for providers, for data, out of fear that more red states would attempt more cross-border policing. But that really hasn’t materialized broadly yet.

Rovner: I remember Missouri was the one that was talking about it, right, to make it a crime if —

Ollstein: Right.

Rovner: I know they didn’t do it, but they were talking about if women went particularly to Illinois, which is now one of these abortion havens, and came back, they would try to prosecute them, although that never really came to be.

Ollstein: Exactly. And so it’s interesting that even really conservative states with big Republican majorities, most have not gone down this road yet. And so I imagine a lot of them are watching how this case goes.

Rovner: Well, as long as we’re talking about states that start with “I,” let’s turn to Indiana, where Planned Parenthood reports that all of their appointments for abortions are taken between now and when that state’s near-total ban takes effect in a few weeks. This points out something I think often gets missed in these sort of score card maps of states that have bans and restrictions, which is there’s a lot of states where abortion is technically still legal but realistically not available, right?

Ollstein: The difference between being technically legal and available is nothing new. This was true prior to Dobbs as well. There were lots of states that only had one abortion clinic for the entire state. There were, like, six of those. And so, you know, you may have the right to have the procedure on paper, but if there’s only one place you could go and you’re not able to physically get there or they don’t have an appointment within the time window you need, you’re out of luck; that right isn’t, you know, meaningful for you. And so that’s becoming, you know, more true as abortion access is eliminated in a lot of the country and more and more people are depending on fewer and fewer states.

Rovner: And fewer and fewer clinics in fewer and fewer states. Well, finally, an update on the one-man nomination blockade by Alabama Republican Sen. Tommy Tuberville, who we talked about in March. He has stopped approval of basically all Defense Department personnel moves, including routine promotions, in protest of the Biden administration’s policy of providing leave and travel expenses for servicewomen to get abortions if they’re stationed in states where it’s illegal. Now, for the first time in more than 150 years, the Marine Corps has no approved commandant. Any idea which side’s going to back down here? Rachel, this is backing up the entire legislative calendar in the Senate, right?

Cohrs: It is. And I think some of the coverage this week has highlighted just how there hasn’t really been a willingness among Republican leadership to really put the pressure on Tuberville. But honestly, I don’t know when this stops for him. Having temporary leadership in all these positions isn’t kind of the impetus for him to say that he’s made his point. And I think there are also questions about — there may be more education required about exactly what the difference is between a temporary leader and a permanently installed leader. Obviously, the decisions that they’re making every day are life-and-death and are different than the leadership positions we see over at something like the NIH [National Institutes of Health], where, you know, I think it is —

Rovner: Which is also held up. But that’s another story.

Cohrs: Right, another story. But I just don’t see where this ends quite yet, unless there’s some will from Republican leadership to really bring him in line. And they just haven’t summoned that yet.

Rovner: I imagine there’ll be a vote on this when they get to the defense bill, right, which —the defense authorization, which is going to come up, I think, in both houses in the coming weeks. I mean, one would think that if there’s a vote and he loses, he might back down. I’m just guessing here. I guess we’ll have to wait and see what happens with that. All right. Well, it’s also been a busy couple of weeks in other social policy. On the one hand, a new federal law took effect that makes it easier for people to get accommodations to be able to do their jobs while pregnant. And Maine is going to start offering paid family and parental leave, although not until 2026. That makes it the 13th state to enact such a policy. On the other hand, Georgia is the first state to implement work requirements for Medicaid. Amy, the last time we discussed this, federal judges had tossed out Medicaid work requirements and Republicans in Congress were unsuccessful in getting those requirements back into the debt ceiling compromise. So how come Georgia gets to do this?

Goldstein: Well, I’ve begun to think of Medicaid work requirements as whack-a-mole, if you remember the arcade game in which you knock down an animal with a mallet only to have it pop up unexpectedly somewhere else. So, as you say, work requirements was something that Republicans were very eager to institute in 2017, 2018, when the Trump administration’s Center for Medicare & Medicaid Services encouraged states to adopt them. And there were basically plans to give people Medicaid at the time, mainly people in Medicaid expansion groups, if they worked or went to school or did community service for at least 80 hours a month. As you say, that was knocked down both by a district court and then a federal circuit court. And it looked like that was that, particularly when the Biden administration came along and undid the Trump administration’s regulation that had allowed states to submit proposals, the waivers for these kinds of plans. Well, lo and behold, Georgia said they wanted to do this. They said they wanted to do it in a little bit different way, because, for the first time ever, Georgia was going to be a partial expansion state for Medicaid, allowing people to get onto Medicaid if they had incomes up to the poverty level but not up to the full expansion poverty level that the ACA allows. And the Biden administration didn’t like that so much. And that partial expansion was to be twinned with work requirements. The Biden administration didn’t —

Rovner: For that expansion group, though, right? Not for everybody.

Goldstein: Just for that partial expansion group. The Biden administration didn’t like that so much. But last summer, a judge in Georgia said, no, she thinks this is OK. And the reason was that, unlike the other states, if this was pegged to a partial expansion, any expansion with work requirements would increase the number of people with Medicaid. So that was sort of in her judge judgment — I shouldn’t say the judge’s judgment — consistent with the purposes of the program. So Georgia has gone ahead, and the beginning of this month they allowed people to start enrolling in something called Georgia Pathways to Coverage. And we’ll have to see how it goes.

Rovner: Yeah. And just to be clear, I mean, Alice, you did some stellar work back a couple of years ago about Arkansas, about people losing coverage because of the work requirements, even if they were working, just because of how hard it was to report the work hours, right?

Ollstein: Absolutely. I mean, it’s kind of what we’re seeing now with the Medicaid unwinding, is that, you know, people just aren’t able to know what’s going on, aren’t able to be reached, fall through the cracks, can’t navigate the bureaucracy, and lose coverage that they should be entitled to. So we saw that happen, and I think to Amy’s point, the administration seems to be taking a very different stance on states like Arkansas, you know, which already had expanded Medicaid and then went to impose a work requirement, whereas Georgia didn’t have it before and this is kind of a compromise because it’s like, well, more people will be insured if we allow this to go forward total, you know, so maybe it’s better than nothing, although a lot of folks on the left are very opposed to the concept of work requirements, citing data that the people who are on Medicaid who can work are already working — the vast, vast, vast majority. And those who are not working, either they are caring for a child or someone with disability, or they themselves have a disability, or they’re a student. You know, there’s all these categories of why folks are unable to work.

Rovner: But in this expansion group, one would assume that if they’re earning up to the federal poverty line, they have some source of income. So one would assume that many of them are working. But I think it’ll be really interesting for researchers to watch to see, you know, a sort of a proof of concept in either direction with this.

Goldstein: And let me quickly mention a couple of things. Georgia’s rules are actually in some ways the same as what other states had tried to do previously. But in other ways, this is the strictest set of work requirements that anyone has tried in a couple of ways: People have to meet these work requirements up to age 64, which is older than other states had done for the most part. There’s also no exemption if you’re taking care of a child or taking care of an older family member. So how well people, in addition to the bureaucratic hoops that Alice was talking about, which are of grave concern to some of the people who oppose this in Georgia — there’s also a question of who’s going to actually be able to qualify for this.

Rovner: While we are on the subject of court decisions, one of the odd court decisions that I think has happened over the past few weeks is a federal district court decision out of Louisiana barring many officials in the Biden administration, including the surgeon general and the head of the CDC [Centers for Disease Control and Prevention], from talking to social media sites, particularly about things like medical misinformation. This feels like something I had not seen before in terms of actually trying to ban the administration from talking to private companies based on First Amendment concerns, which is what this is.

Cohrs: Right. Well, I mean, the First Amendment protects speech from interference from the government —

Rovner: Right

Cohrs: — which has always been, you know, this gray area with these independent platforms. And I think this issue, you know, has obviously become highly politicized. It came up several times when Rochelle Walensky, the former CDC director, was testifying on the Hill. So I think certainly we’ve seen this trend overall in these highly political court decisions and this strategy that certain litigants are taking where they’re trying to find defendants in a certain jurisdiction that’s going to be advantageous to them. So it will certainly be interesting to see how this plays out in the future and makes its way through the court system, but certainly is an eye-popping precedent. Like you mentioned, we don’t usually see something like this.

Rovner: And I wanted to mention, I think also because this is yet another of these judges that the right has found that are likely to agree with them. Like we’ve seen now: The judges in Texas, we now have one in Louisiana. Sort of kind of watch that docket. While we are still on the subject of courts, 2023 was the first year in the last decade or so that there was not a major health-related decision in the last big cases decided by the Supreme Court. But it seems like one of those non-health cases, the one essentially striking down affirmative action, might have some major implications for health care after all, particularly for medical education, right?

Cohrs: Yes. Some of my colleagues did some I think great follow-up reporting on this. And I think the idea is that there has been research that has shown that when patients are able to see a doctor of their same racial background, that it does have positive implications for their care. And there has also been studies of schools where there have been bans on race-conscious admissions showing that there is a decrease in medical school students from underrepresented backgrounds traditionally. And so I think that cause and effect is concerning for people, that if there are fewer medical students — there already aren’t a representative amount — from underrepresented groups, that could trickle down to, again, just exacerbating so many of these inequities that we see in health care provision. I know there was just a big study on the maternal mortality outcomes that came out recently as well. And I think all of these things are tied together. And I think Axios reported on one interesting potential loophole, was using proxy measures, like where someone went to school or their parents’ background, something like that, to try to ensure diversity from that lens. But I think it certainly is going to make these medical schools recalculate how they’re doing admissions and make some hard choices about how to maintain diversity that can be beneficial for patients.

Rovner: One thing that I think has come up in all of these discussions is the fact that the University of California-Davis has done an interesting job of creating a very diverse medical school class, even though race-conscious admissions have been banned in California for years. So I think a lot of schools are going to be looking sort of to see what UC Davis has done and perhaps emulate that. And I will put one of the UC Davis stories in the show notes for everybody. All right. Finally in this week’s news, the drug industry has filed a lawsuit challenging the Medicare drug price negotiation program that’s just now starting to get off the ground. Rachel, you wrote about this. How does pharma think it can block price-setting for Medicare that Medicare does for pretty much everything else that Medicare pays for? They set prices for hospitals and doctors and medical equipment. Why are drugmakers thinking that they’re special?

Cohrs: Right. So, again, this is four lawsuits as well, not just one: two from two trade groups and two drugmakers. And they’re each kind of using different arguments. But I think the big picture here is if the government called it price-setting, I don’t think pharma would have as much of an argument, but they’re calling it a negotiation. And I think one of the drugmakers’ key claims is that by signing these contracts to enter into this process, they’re tacitly admitting that this price that they come up with in this process is, quote-unquote, “fair.” And, you know, they don’t want to agree to that because then it makes the price that they’re charging everyone else look unfair on the other side of the coin. And I think there’s also these really high penalties for these companies who decide not to participate; I mean, tens of millions of dollars on the first day is the kind of number that we’re seeing for some of these companies that have filed lawsuits. And I think there’s also the option for them to take all of their drugs off of the market. But I think there’s a question with the timeline of whether they could have even done that before the law was passed. So the big picture from the drugmaker side of things is that the penalties are so high for them not to participate and that the government is framing this as a negotiation when it really is just price-setting, like Medicare does in so many other areas. So I think one interesting development that happened this week was that the [U.S.] Chamber of Commerce filed a motion for a preliminary injunction, which could make all of these lawsuits move much faster and really put a stop to the program. We hadn’t seen either of these lawsuits request a motion like that. And I think they requested a ruling by Oct. 1, which is when the first kind of round of 10 drugmakers would have had to sign their contracts with Medicare. So I think this certainly is picking up speed and urgency as we’re moving toward that Sept. 1 selection date.

Rovner: I didn’t even notice. Are these lawsuits all filed here in Washington, D.C., or —

Cohrs: No, they are not. As we’ve seen, the drugmakers are very strategic in where they filed. I think Merck did file in D.C., but the chamber filed in Ohio; it had some of their local chapters join in as well. I think we saw another company file in New Jersey. So I think they are kind of hedging their bets and trying to get rulings from as many different jurisdictions as they can.

Rovner: Find a judge who’s willing to slap an injunction on this whole thing.

Cohrs: Yes.

Rovner: Which we will talk about when and if it happens. All right. That is this week’s news, or at least as much as we have time to get to. Now, we will play my “Bill of the Month” interview with Bram Sable-Smith, and then we will be back with our extra credits. We are pleased to welcome back to the podcast Bram Sable-Smith, who reported and wrote the latest KFF Health News-NPR “Bill of the Month.” Bram, so nice to see you again.

Bram Sable-Smith: Always a pleasure to be here.

Rovner: So, this month’s patient was, like a lot of young people, an uninsured 23-year-old when she ended up in the emergency room. Tell us who she is and what kind of medical care she needed and got.

Sable-Smith: Yeah, that’s right. Her name was Bethany Birch. And, in addition to being uninsured, she was also unemployed at the time, and she had had pain in her diaphragm for eight months. It prevented her from eating. She lost about 25 pounds in that time. And when she went to the emergency room, she found out she needed her gallbladder removed.

Rovner: And got it, right?

Sable-Smith: And got it. Yeah, she got that surgery almost immediately. Because she hadn’t been eating food — her food resistance — it meant she could get in for surgery right away.

Rovner: And that cured her? Yes?

Sable-Smith: It did cure her. Yes, she felt a lot better.

Rovner: So now we’re talking about the bill. The hospital tried to send her the bill, but apparently it couldn’t find her. Is this a common thing, and why couldn’t they find her? One presumes she gave them an address when she presented at the emergency room.

Sable-Smith: She did give them an address, but by the time she was discharged, she had lost her housing. Her home situation was unstable. So just that brief visit to the hospital, by the time she left, she had no more house to live in. And she did end up crashing with her family for several months. And, eventually, she did update her address with the post office. But by the time she had done that, it was after the hospital had sent the three bills to her for her visit.

Rovner: So the hospital doesn’t get any response, and they do what we know hospitals do. They sued for nonpayment. And the debt collection firm did manage to find her. So then what happened?

Sable-Smith: Well, she went to court, and like so many people who end up in court with medical debt, she did not have a lawyer representing her. She met with a representative from the debt collection firm, and she worked out a payment plan to pay her bill, plus court costs, in $100 monthly installments. But at the time, Tennessee had a default interest rate on judgments like the one that Bethany had of 7%. So the judge tacked on a 7% interest rate to her bill.

Rovner: So, yeah, and that was presumably a lot for her to carry. What finally happened with the bill?

Sable-Smith: Well, she paid her $100 monthly payments for over four years. It totaled about $5,200 she paid in that time. But at the same time, the interest rate was accruing. And so she owed an additional $2,700 on top of the initial bill that she had gotten. From her perspective, it was just impossible. She wasn’t digging out of this debt. So she started getting help from a family friend, who’s a billing expert, who took on her case. They asked the hospital and the debt collection firm to settle her debt because she had already paid so much. But they were unsuccessful in doing so. They sent their bill to us. We started reporting the story. Then they asked again to settle her debt by paying an additional $100 on top of what she had already paid. And this time they agreed. And so she settled her debt and she got a balance-zero statement.

Rovner: Amazing how just one phone call from us can do some work. Now, as somebody who is unemployed and, as you pointed out, uninsured at the time she got the care, Bethany should have been eligible for the hospital’s financial assistance policy. Why didn’t she get help before the debt ballooned with court costs and all that interest?

Sable-Smith: Well, the simple answer is that she never applied. But, as we know, it’s much more complicated than that. So given her status as single, uninsured, unemployed, it’s very possible that she would have qualified for financial help, maybe even for free care altogether. But the onus was on her as a patient to apply. And we know her situation was unstable. You know, she went through a period of homelessness. She didn’t have a lot of expendable money at the time. It’s a long process to apply for these programs. There’s a lot of forms. It can be cumbersome. And that prevents a lot of people from applying to these programs. So advocates push for something called presumptive eligibility, where the hospital takes the onus of applying away from patients and they automatically put them through the process. And this hospital that Bethany went to, they actually have switched to that presumptive eligibility model, just not in time to help her case.

Rovner: So what’s the takeaway here? I guess everybody has to be a proactive patient, not just with your medical care, but especially with your bills. What happens to a patient who finds themselves in a similar situation?

Sable-Smith: Well, you know, from a consumer standpoint like that, one takeaway is to ask for financial help. A lot more people qualify than you might think. You might not think you qualify, but it’s very possible you could. And then from a policy perspective, hospitals switching to presumptive eligibility — that’s something that they’re able to do. And also, some states have pushed to ban or even limit interest payments on this kind of medical debt. So that’s something that other people are considering as well.

Rovner: Or you can write to us, and we will show you how in our show notes.

Sable-Smith: That’s always a possibility, too.

Rovner: Bram Sable-Smith, thank you so much.

Sable-Smith: Yeah, thanks for having me.

Rovner: OK, we’re back, and it’s time for our extra credit segment. That’s when we each recommend a story we read this week we think you should read too. As always, don’t worry if you miss it. We will post the links on the podcast page at kffhealthnews.org and in our show notes on your phone or other mobile device. Rachel, why don’t you go first?

Cohrs: OK, I’m cheating a little bit and I’m doing a double feature. So the first story for my extra credit is headlined “How Often Do Health Insurers Say No to Patients? No One Knows.” It’s in ProPublica by Robin Fields, and I think it’s just a great feature on the idea that Obamacare entitled the government and patients to more information about how often insurers deny care to patients. And the government hasn’t really pursued that information. And even, like, state health insurance commissions aren’t providing the information they’re collecting. And Robin just had such a difficult time getting any sort of information from anyone, even though we’re legally entitled to it. So I thought that was just kind of a great highlight of this next area of criticism of the health insurance industry, which, and I think that —

Rovner: I would say, all this focus on premiums and not as much focus on what you actually get for those premiums.

Cohrs: Exactly. So true. I think there’ve been some high-profile examples, great reporting. And I thought that meshed well with some reporting from my colleagues Casey Ross and Bob Herman, who wrote a follow-up to some of their prior reporting titled “How UnitedHealth’s Acquisition of a Popular Medicare Advantage Algorithm Sparked Internal Dissent Over Denied Care.” Again, looking at how algorithms in this one privatized Medicare program, which is growing in size and enrollment across the country, was actually overruling clinicians’ decisions about how long patients should be receiving care in facilities. And if the algorithm says they should be done, then they’re done. And I think it definitely sparked some concerns from people in the company who were willing to speak to them just because they were so concerned about this trend.

Rovner: Alice.

Ollstein: I have a very impressive investigation from The Wall Street Journal. There are five bylines, and we will post the link. This is about lead-covered telecom cables owned by AT&T, Verizon, other companies that have been left to decay and leach into the environment all around the country. This documents how the companies knew about them but have not moved to clean them up and get rid of them. They are impacting water sources. They are near playgrounds where children are, and it goes into the very disturbing health impacts of lead exposure. This is something the country has made a lot of progress on when it comes to paint and other sources, but obviously we still have a long way to go.

Rovner: Yeah, because there’s not enough things to be worried about environmentally, here is something else. It is very good reporting.

Rovner: Amy.

Goldstein: My extra credit this week is from The New York Times, by Reed Abelson, with the headline “Medicare Advantage Plans Offer Few Psychiatrists.” And this isn’t a giant story, but I think it is at the nexus of two very important questions: one, the long-standing question of whether privatized Medicare is better or worse for people who are older Americans on Medicare than the traditional version of Medicare; and the question of are people getting enough access to mental health care? And I guess what struck me is that there’s been so much attention lately to the question of access to mental health services for younger Americans, and this looked at the question of access to mental health services for older Americans. And what this story, based on a study, talks about is that the study found that more than half of the counties, the researchers who did this study found, is that those counties did not have a single psychiatrist participating in Medicare Advantage and that a lot of these plans have what’s called “narrow” or “skinny” networks, where a very small fraction of the available psychiatrists in a community were in that plan’s network. Now, [there are] people who are criticizing that study saying, well, you can’t look at just psychiatrists; there are other people who provide competent mental health care. But I think it just raises the question of who is getting what they need.

Rovner: Indeed. Well, my story this week is also about just plain good reporting. It’s called “Doctor Lands in the Doghouse After Giving Covid Vaccine Waivers Too Freely.” It’s by Brett Kelman of KFF Health News. But it’s about some old-fashioned reporting by another outlet, Nashville’s NewsChannel 5. It seemed that during the height of the covid vaccine rollout, when lots of places were requiring proof of vaccines and lots of people didn’t want to get them, the doctor in question, named Robert Coble, was providing waivers through a website without much —OK, any — oversight. How did they prove it? By obtaining a waiver for a reporter’s black Labrador retriever, Charlie. Earlier this spring, Coble quietly surrendered his medical license to the state Department of Health. Journalism works. OK, that is our show for this week. As always, if you enjoy the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left us a review; that helps other people find us too. Special thanks, as always, to our producer, Francis Ying. Also as always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org. Or you can still tweet me. I’m @jrovner. I’m on Threads too, @julie.rovner.

Rovner: Amy.

Goldstein: I’m @goldsteinamy.

Rovner: Rachel.

Cohrs: I’m @rachelcohrs on Twitter and @rachelcohrsreporter on Threads.

Rovner: Alice.

Ollstein: @AliceOllstein.

Rovner: We will be back in your feed next week. Until then, be healthy.

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Julie Rovner is chief Washington correspondent and host of KFF Health News’ weekly health policy news podcast, “What the Health?” A noted expert on health policy issues, Julie is the author of the critically praised reference book “Health Care Politics and Policy A to Z,” now in its third edition.

It’s an understatement to say a lot has happened in the year since the Supreme Court overturned the nationwide right to abortion in its decision in Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization.

But while many of the subsequent legislative and court actions to either ban or preserve access to abortion were predicted, the decision has had other, sometimes far-reaching consequences.

In this special episode of KFF Health News’ “What the Health?” four reporters who have closely covered the issue — host and KFF Health News chief Washington correspondent Julie Rovner, Alice Miranda Ollstein of Politico, Shefali Luthra of The 19th, and Sandhya Raman of CQ Roll Call — try to condense all that has happened since the nationwide right to abortion was revoked.

Panelists

Shefali Luthra
The 19th

@shefalil

Read Shefali's stories

Alice Miranda Ollstein
Politico

@AliceOllstein

Read Alice's stories

Sandhya Raman
CQ Roll Call

@SandhyaWrites

Read Sandhya's stories

Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:

• In the Dobbs ruling last year, some justices said the decision would settle the issue of abortion in the courts. That has turned out not to be the case; jurisprudence about abortion access continues, largely in state courts.
• President Joe Biden has issued executive orders to preserve access to reproductive health care, including recently by directing federal agencies to find ways to increase access to contraception. But not all of the administration’s calls have translated into federal action, and some progressive groups are disappointed the Biden administration has not gone further in protecting abortion care.
• Perhaps the most significant action in Congress has been Sen. Tommy Tuberville (R-Ala.) blocking Pentagon nominations over a Defense Department policy supporting the ability of troops and their dependents to travel for abortion care. So far he has held up more than 250 nominations amid accusations that he is undermining national security.
• After Dobbs, there was anxiety in Democratic-run states that abortion restrictions would seep across state borders and lead to interstate prosecutions targeting abortion care. Those concerns have, so far, not materialized. Meanwhile, some states are attempting more roundabout ways to ban abortion, such as requiring all abortions be performed in hospitals when there are no hospitals in the state that perform the procedure.
• Polls show voters are now more supportive of abortion access than they have been in many years; more opposed to second-trimester bans; and more likely to identify abortion as a key priority when they vote. Health care providers are finding themselves pressed into advocacy or choosing to move to other states, potentially creating long-term care deserts.
• Plus, our panel of reporters reflects on one thing that will stick with them from their experiences covering abortion in the first year after the overturning of Roe v. Wade.

Also this week, Rovner interviews Alina Salganicoff, senior vice president and director for Women’s Health Policy at KFF. For KFF research and resources on reproductive health, click here.

Plus, for “extra credit,” the panelists suggest the favorite abortion-related stories they wrote in the past year they think you should read, too:

Julie Rovner: KFF Health News’ “Three Things About the Abortion Debate That Many People Get Wrong,” by Julie Rovner.

Shefali Luthra: The 19th’s “93 Days: The Summer America Lost Roe v. Wade,” by Shefali Luthra.

Alice Miranda Ollstein: Politico’s “Kansas’ Abortion Vote Kicks Off New Post-Roe Era,” by Alice Miranda Ollstein.

Sandhya Raman: Roll Call’s “Conservatives Use Abortion Strategies in Fight Over Trans Care,” by Sandhya Raman.

click to open the transcript

Transcript: A Year Without Roe

KFF Health News’ ‘What the Health?’

Episode Title: A Year Without Roe

Episode Number: 304

Published: June 29, 2023

[Editor’s note: This transcript, generated using transcription software, has been edited for style and clarity.]

Julie Rovner: Hello and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Julie Rovner, chief Washington correspondent at KFF Health News. We’re back in Washington this week, joined by some of the best and smartest health reporters. We’re taping this week on Thursday, June 29, at 10 a.m. As always, news happens fast and things might have changed by the time you hear this. So here we go. We are joined today via video conference by Alice Miranda Ollstein of Politico.

Alice Miranda Ollstein: Good morning.

Rovner: Shefali Luthra of The 19th.

Luthra: Hello.

Rovner: And Sandhya Raman of CQ Roll Call.

Raman: Good morning.

Rovner: So after last week’s special with the current and two former Health and Human Services secretaries, which I hope you all enjoyed, we have another special episode for you this week, one year after Roe fell. Saturday, June 24, marked a year since the Supreme Court overturned the nationwide right to abortion with its decision in Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization. We’re going to start with an interview with my KFF colleague Alina Salganicoff, all about the work KFF has done on this topic over the last year. Spoiler alert: It’s been a lot. Then we’ll have our regular panel discussion. So, without further ado, here is the interview. I am pleased to welcome to the podcast my colleague Alina Salganicoff, senior vice president and director of Women’s Health Policy here at KFF. Alina, welcome to “What the Health?”

Alina Salganicoff: Thank you. Delighted to be here.

Rovner: So it’s an understatement to say that a lot has happened on the women’s health front in the year since the Supreme Court decided Dobbs. But I think your group has produced an enormous volume of information that a lot of journalists and researchers have already used to help paint a picture of those changes. For those who haven’t taken a stroll through the resources available at kff.org/womens-health-policy, give us an idea of what can be found there.

Salganicoff: Well, we have been collecting a tremendous amount of information. Most recently we released a survey of OB-GYNs on their experiences pre- and post-Dobbs and really found some very, I think, alarming findings in terms of the impact of Dobbs on clinical care. We’re also tracking abortion coverage, as well as tracking the availability of abortion at the state level, and we do that routinely. We have a litigation tracker that tracks litigation at the federal and the state level, and that’s just been a very active part of our portfolio and analysis as well. And that’s just an example of a few things that we have going on. But we also have an abortion dashboard, where we provide up-to-date information and analysis and data, not only for work that KFF has been doing, but also synthesis and analysis of other work that’s going on in the field.

Rovner: This is information that, I will confess, a lot of reporters have been using over the course of the year. So thank you for that. How would you describe the state of abortion rights in the U.S. a year post the overturn of Roe?

Salganicoff: Well, that’s a huge question. The answer, of course, truly depends on where you live. In states where abortion is banned, access has been all but eliminated, except for in the rarest circumstances. And honestly, in most cases, even women who qualify for those exceptions have nowhere to go or aren’t being served. In many other states, there are restrictions, particularly those with gestational bans that restrict where people seeking abortion can go. And even in states that uphold abortion rights, people may still need to travel far for abortions, even if … and maybe not even have access to telehealth abortions where they live.

Rovner: So I know this is an even harder question. Can you take 30 seconds to tell us what you think the biggest difference has been compared to a year ago, or I guess it’s now a year and a week ago?

Salganicoff: Well, that is a big ask, Julie. But I will say, for those who live in states where abortion is banned or greatly restricted, this is where you really see the biggest change. And this has, as we anticipated, disproportionately affected pregnant people of color, those who are young and low-income. But also, abortion bans have made it more dangerous for pregnant women and others to have a baby or to get needed medical care. Those seeking abortions have been the hardest hit, but they’re not the only group. And I think also that there’s growing awareness and acceptance that abortion cannot be relegated to the shadows of health care or banned without having broad repercussions on other aspects of health care. Maternity care, emergency care, treatment for cancer and autoimmune disease have all been impacted as well.

Rovner: Yeah, I think that’s been a big revelation for a lot of people, that lots of pregnant women who worked hard to get pregnant and are trying to have babies but have problems in their pregnancy are caught in some of these restrictions, even if unintentionally.

Salganicoff: Absolutely. And I think that the issue of the large disparities we have in this nation on maternal mortality really has brought this issue much more into the limelight, and really seeing how abortion is going to be connected to maternal mortality in this country.

Rovner: So, like me, you’ve been doing this work for a long time now. What surprised you most about the fallout from a year without Roe?

Salganicoff: Right. Well, when Roe fell, I think many of us anticipated in a short time half the states would ban abortion. And while that has happened in 14 states, legal challenges, along with ballot initiatives and elections, have made it clear that there is a will to maintain abortion access in many places where we didn’t think that was possible. Kansas, Kentucky, Michigan, they’re all great examples of that, but they’re not the only states. The other, I think, has been the issue of the FDA and mifepristone, where the Supreme Court has temporarily blocked the lower-court ruling that would have essentially overturned the FDA’s scientific assessment of the safety and effectiveness of the drug, as well as the guardrails that are necessary for dispensing. But that case is not resolved. And then, finally, we have the issue of the Comstock Act, which is also related to that, which is an anti-vice law from 1873 that holds the potential, if enforced, to block the distribution of not only mifepristone but potentially anything that’s used with the intent to perform an abortion. That doesn’t mean just mailing the pill from the clinician to the patient, but also distributing the medication. And it’s going to affect states across the country, not just those where abortion is banned.

Rovner: So lots more to watch. One of your reports that surprised me was how many abortion restrictions there are in states even where abortion isn’t banned, and what we think of as pretty blue, like Massachusetts and Maryland. What kind of restrictions still exist in places that are otherwise considered abortion-destination states?

Salganicoff: Yes, that’s some work that we’ve recently done some analysis on. Yeah. Even if abortion is not legally banned, states can establish regulations and other requirements that effectively restrict access. In states like Maryland and Massachusetts, those are parental consent, or notification, laws. But there are other requirements such as waiting periods, ultrasound requirements, as well as laws that only permit those who have medical degrees to perform or dispense medication abortion pills, even though we know that advanced-practice clinicians, like physician assistants or nurse-midwives, can safely perform these procedures. That makes it harder for people, even in those states, as well as those who travel to get access to abortion.

Rovner: So, presumably, abortion rights advocates have work to do in many states, not just ones with bans.

Salganicoff: That’s right.

Rovner: I think another thing that came as a surprise to me, and we’ve already mentioned this briefly, is how health care for women that is not abortion has been affected. What are doctors telling you?

Salganicoff: Yeah. We recently did a survey of OB-GYNs, and I’ve also been out in the field in several conferences and meetings. And, you know, there’s been a lot of attention recently to the issue of miscarriage management, but also dealing with pregnancy in general and possibly also in the context of cancer care, care for chronic diseases, and emergency care. For example, there have been concerns about access to drugs like methotrexate, which is an abortifacient. It’s used to treat ectopic pregnancies, but it’s also used to treat cancer and autoimmune disease. And we’ve been seeing and hearing at least anecdotal reports about difficulties in accessing that drug. Our OB-GYN survey finds that clinicians are really worried about maternal mortality, their ability to provide care that meets the standards of care — medical care and the norms — and also to provide miscarriage care. That should worry not only those who can get pregnant, but many others as well.

Rovner: So what are you working on now that we should keep an eye out for?

Salganicoff: Well, of course, we’re laser-focused on tracking and analyzing the broader implications of the Dobbs ruling on abortion access. But we’re also focused on contraceptive access as well. And I think that hasn’t gotten nearly as much attention. There’s the issue of how Title X, which is the federal family planning program, is going to proceed in light of a federal decision to withhold the Title X grants for Oklahoma and Tennessee, states that are refusing to follow the requirement that Title X patients be given nondirective pregnancy counseling and referral. So this is an area that I think is going to get some attention on the Hill and in the courts, and I think other states are watching that. The other issue … are developments around emergency contraception and the real confusion that our polling has really documented about whether it’s legal and available. And we actually saw in our OB-GYN survey very low rates of physicians providing emergency contraception to their patients. And then finally, where all eyes are, of course, on the FDA for their decision about the over-the-counter status of an oral contraceptive pill. And we’re going to be looking at how that’s all going to roll out in the pharmacies, as well as whether there’s going to be an opportunity to provide insurance coverage for that newly available method.

Rovner: Lots more to come. I guess we’ll have to do this again next year. Alina Salganicoff, thank you so much for joining us.

Salganicoff: Thank you for inviting me. It’s been a pleasure.

Rovner: OK. We are back and I’m so pleased to have three of my favorite reproductive health specialists at the table today, who have spent a lot of the last year reporting from around the country and, in some cases, around the world. Alice, Shefali, Sandhya: Thank you all for being here. So I want to start with the people who are most affected by the Supreme Court’s action last year. What has happened to women seeking abortions since last year and women seeking other types of health care, too, for that matter?

Luthra: I think the data is pretty compelling, right? We can look at the WeCount numbers that just came out right before the anniversary. The number of recorded legal abortions has fallen quite precipitously. We have seen thousands fewer people get abortions. We’ve also seen dramatic increases in people traveling for care, going to Florida, to Illinois, to North Carolina, among many others. And what those numbers don’t always tell us is how difficult that journey is, how expensive it is. I think a lot about this study from when SB 8, the Texas six-week abortion ban, took effect, and they found there that some of the people who were traveling out of state, it took them so much money they couldn’t afford food for a week and then they ate whatever they could; they couldn’t afford dog food because it was just that difficult of a trip. And what we’re seeing is just people are, in some cases, accessing health care and other cases they are not. And it is becoming a lot harder and in some cases life-threatening. We’re all hearing the stories about people experiencing pregnancy complications and not being able to get timely care flying across several states while afraid they could go into premature labor on the plane.

Ollstein: Everything Shefali said is true. I also think that we need to put our critical hats on when we look at some of this early, preliminary data that’s coming out. It just takes time to get very solid, reliable data. And while the WeCount report is helpful, it has a lot of holes in it, and it makes estimates, and it doesn’t include people who are obtaining mifepristone and self-managing their abortions outside the medical system. You know, it doesn’t include data from certain providers and certain states. And so I think it will just take time to get a really accurate picture of what’s going on. We are sort of cobbling it together. You know, we have providers in blue states reporting how much increase they’re seeing in people coming in. We get some data from groups like Aid Access that mail the pills about the demand they are seeing. But there are a lot of people who aren’t going to show up in any of those counts. And we just sort of don’t know what’s happening to that, other than anecdotally, based on our reporting on the ground. And so I think, yes, there are a lot of people obtaining pills, there are a lot of people traveling, and there are a lot of people for whom neither of those are possible options and that they are going forward with pregnancies that they otherwise would have terminated.

Rovner: I think one of my biggest takeaways from the last year is the broader understanding of how common pregnancy complications are. I think a lot of people did not expect to see so many women with wanted pregnancies have difficulty getting care that they needed. I think people didn’t realize how common pregnancy complications are; they affect about 8% of pregnancies, or that’s 1 in every 12.5. That is a lot of people. And of course, as we all know, maternal mortality and morbidity in this country is embarrassingly high compared to other industrialized countries. I think people, particularly in the anti-abortion movement, used to talk about, you know, these serious pregnancy complications as being extremely rare. They just aren’t. I think we’re finally starting to see people talk about that.

Raman: You know, the past year I’ve seen so much more in the public consciousness about miscarriage management, which is something that we’ve all covered in the past, but it’s not something that I think has been talked about as much, brought up as much, some of the complications there. And especially when the treatment for miscarriages in many cases is very similar to what is done for abortions, and just some of the difficulties that different folks have been experiencing being able to get that care for miscarriages even if they are not seeking an abortion and it’s a wanted pregnancy. I think that has really come to light a lot as well.

Rovner: So the Supreme Court majority, I think in their majority opinion, sort of said they hoped that this would be the last word on abortion for a while. It obviously was not. So let let’s do a quick review of what’s happened in the courts since Dobbs was decided last year. I guess the big one that we’re waiting on is the case of mifepristone, the abortion pill, right?

Ollstein: That’s the main federal one, although there are some other ones. But as we all sort of knew at the time, this is really a state-by-state fight. And the state-level cases are still continuing to play out. You know, just recently there were some major rulings, in Wyoming, in South Carolina. We’re waiting on Iowa. There was this declaration by the justices that overturned Roe v. Wade that this would sort of “settle the issue,” quote-unquote. And it is extremely unsettled.

Rovner: It is. And of course we should mention that a lot of these state cases are  because even though the Supreme Court ruled that the federal Constitution doesn’t have any right to abortion, a lot of states say that their state constitutions do.

Luthra: And the South Carolina one is particularly interesting because, in January, we had the state Supreme Court say that their constitution did not allow for a six-week ban. And just this week, that same Supreme Court, with one change in membership, heard almost the same version, a slightly different six-week ban, and there is a good chance they uphold it, which really speaks to not only the role of the courts in dictating abortion rights on a state-by-state level, but also the role of individual changes in the makeup of those courts and how just this one really small thing, like someone aging out of being on the state Supreme Court, can change access for thousands of people.

Ollstein: And state constitutions, even though they don’t have the word “abortion,” often are way more protective of abortion than people might have predicted. To Shefali’s point, that goes to which judges are interpreting it. But also you have some of these rulings in states we think of as very far to the right that are surprisingly protective of abortion. And I think that fight is continuing to play out. And I’m sure we’re going to get into later the attempts to insert language into the state constitutions that’s explicitly protective of abortion.

Luthra: One element on the federal courts that I think is worth flagging that is relevant to this mifepristone case as well, right — which, to recap, is currently at the 5th Circuit; they are debating whether to take mifepristone off the market, to impose more restrictions on how it’s prescribed. This will probably end up at the Supreme Court again, maybe within the year. But dormant in that case, and something that a lot of scholars have talked about, is this new legal questioning around the Comstock Act, this very old anti-obscenity law used in the past to censor Walt Whitman, to ban “Ulysses,” all sorts of crazy things, and is now being argued as a legal vehicle to end access not only to mifepristone, but to anything that can be mailed for an abortion. And scholars are quite critical of these arguments, but there is a reasonable chance that they come up again and again, and that, given the right case, the right lawyers, the right justices, that a case based on this reading of the Comstock Act could be used to argue for and potentially even implement a national abortion ban through the federal courts without using Congress.

Rovner: Yeah. Mary Ziegler, who’s been on this podcast, who’s one of the top abortion history scholars and a law professor, has been talking about this a lot. You know, everybody is sort of talking about whether or not they can implement or pass a national abortion ban. She says, depending on how they interpret Comstock, there already is, in theory, a national abortion ban. And it wouldn’t just be pills. It would be anything that’s mailed that really has to do with abortion, right?

Ollstein: Yeah. I also just want to go back to the mifepristone case and note that there’s not just one; there’s, like, five — five that I that I know of, maybe even more. The main one that could decide the federal regulation at the FDA level of mifepristone; there are several groups of states saying, Hey, if there’s a federal ban, it shouldn’t apply to us; and then there are two lawsuits that are attempting to challenge state-level bans on the drugs as violating the rights either of doctors and patients or of the pharmaceutical companies. So there are so many different permutations and ways this could go. It’s not just, you know, an up or down vote.

Rovner: Yeah, it’s definitely a full-employment-for-lawyers decision.

Ollstein: And health care reporters.

Rovner: And health care reporters. Well, I want to talk about the administration a little bit. President Biden has been both praised by abortion rights supporters for his administration’s support of abortion rights and chided for his personal reluctance to talk about an issue he is clearly not very comfortable with. What has the administration done in this arena, besides everybody paying attention to what President Biden does or doesn’t say himself?

Raman: I would boil down what I guess the president has done has been the three executive orders that he’s done since the Dobbs decision. So we had two last year that were more focused on abortion and things that he was asking various agencies and departments to do there. And then most recently, last week, we had one that was focused on birth control and contraception, broadening accessibility there. And I think the trick here is that all of these points within the executive order are calling on the agencies and departments to consider doing this, consider doing that. And while some of those things have come to fruition — we’ve had, you know, the VA [Department of Veterans Affairs] and the Department of Defense have changed their policies to kind of make access easier — we’ve also had certain things that have been outlined there not come out. We had in I think the first or second one last year that they had asked CMS [the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services] to find ways to make it so that there could be, you know, an 1115 waiver for Medicaid programs to cover out-of-state patients. And states haven’t really jumped at that or figured out a way for that to work out. So it’s a mixed bag.

Luthra: I think another sort of interesting element — for everything the administration has done, tried to expand access to mifepristone in pharmacies, tried to use EMTALA [the Emergency Medical Treatment and Labor Act], the emergency medication law, to help people get abortions when they are needed for life-threatening situations in hospitals, it feels like there is always a Republican response that is quite effective in, if not neutering, then quite weakening that. And we’ve seen that with the Texas attorney general, potentially someday soon former attorney general, suing to challenge the EMTALA regs that we’ve seen that in the —

Rovner: He’s being impeached, for those of you who have not kept up — that the Texas attorney general. So we’re waiting for the trial of that impeachment.

Luthra: Yeah, we’ve seen like Alice’s really great reporting on the efforts by Republican attorneys general, including in blue states, to limit access to mifepristone in pharmacies, right, sort of going directly against what the administration is trying to do and what it sort of gets to is: For everything that they try, it is hard to see in reality how much of an impact it will make and can make on the ground in expanding access to abortion.

Ollstein: Oh, yes. And we should say that there are, you know, progressive advocacy groups who are disappointed and think the administration has not tried everything it could be trying. And so, you know, the administration has been touting everything it’s doing. And like we have said, some of it has made an impact, particularly defending these policies in court and stopping them from being struck down. But there is a lot of frustration. You know, I’ve heard specific calls for more to be done through Medicaid, more to be done in terms of exploring whether abortion providers could operate on federal land, even in red states. There’s just a lot of areas, and this administration is pretty cautious. And, you know, we can see, because of all the legal challenges, why that is. An adverse legal ruling could be damaging going forward. But, you know, I do want to note that there are pro-abortion rights advocacy groups who are not satisfied with the level of effort from the Biden administration so far.

Rovner: Frustrated, I think, is the accurate word there. Well, let us move to Congress because that’s relevant to what we were just talking about. As we have discussed on this podcast many times, Congress is pretty much gridlocked on all issues involving reproductive health. There are not 60 votes in the Senate for anything on either side, but there’s been some action in Congress the last year, right, Sandhya?

Raman: Yeah, I would say 1) historically, there’s rarely much movement on abortion policy in Congress. It’s just someone bringing something up a lot for messaging. But I think the main thing that that has had an effect is [Republican] Sen. [Tommy] Tuberville from Alabama has been holding up Pentagon nominations over the Department of Defense’s abortion policy, which allows service members who are stationed somewhere where abortion is not legal to be able to take off time and travel somewhere to get that abortion. And this has been holding up over 250 nominations so far. It’s been a big issue given that, I think, there have been folks from either side and former defense officials have said this is a matter of national security, that we’re not able to get this done over one person.

Rovner: This is a big deal that’s been kind of flying under the radar for two or three months now, right?

Ollstein: They’re at a total impasse.

Raman: Yeah, I think that the latest is mainly that, you know, Sen. [Joni] Ernst [R-Iowa] does want to have a vote on this when the NDAA goes to the Senate floor.

Rovner: The defense authorization — the annual defense authorization bill.

Raman: Right.

Rovner: Yes.

Raman: To kind of have a vote on that and try to get that. But they’re at an impasse right now. And it’s kind of unusual. I mean, it’s something that — people have held up nominations, but I think this in particular is a pretty interesting one.

Rovner: Yeah, I know the secretary of defense is very upset about it. It really is a matter of national security and they really haven’t been able to work this out. You know, we know, as we mentioned, Congress can’t sort of do anything. There is not a supermajority to either tighten federal abortion restrictions or loosen them. But one of the things that might have happened and that anti-abortion legislators talked about early in the year were things to better support pregnant women or pregnant women who’ve then had children, and trying to support those children. Even things like Title X, like contraception, Head Start, expanded Medicaid for maternal health for a year. We actually haven’t seen very much of that happening either, have we?

Ollstein: No, we have not. I will say we have in some states; some states that are very conservative have — they say it’s specifically because of the elimination of abortion access — moved to have more funding for moms and babies and even contraception. And so you have seen that. But no, at the federal level, it is running right into this anxiety about debt and spending and not wanting to open the pocketbooks on that front. I also think it’s interesting that House Republicans have not really used their majority to vote on an abortion ban. In a sense, it’s kind of a free vote for them because it won’t become law. And it’s just interesting and speaks to the tricky politics that they haven’t even done a symbolic vote. Meanwhile, you’ve had Senate Democrats do a bunch of symbolic votes to try to make Republicans uncomfortable with the issue. But again, these are all just sort of show votes that are not going to become law.

Rovner: Yeah, somebody should total up the show votes at some point over the last 10 years. I bet it would be a lot.

Raman: I will say that, you know, the one thing that I will acknowledge on a federal level is that, you know, when we had the omnibus last year, they did make the 12-month postpartum Medicaid pilot coverage permanent. And I think that will be a big thing, given that so many states have so quickly adopted the pilot of that. So that would see something that that there can be an effect, but —

Rovner: But it is still optional. States don’t have to — I mean right now —

Raman: It is still optional.

Rovner: Standard Medicaid cuts off new moms after 60 days, is that right?

Raman: Yeah, But I mean, it’s hard. I mean, I think it’s A) kind of what Alice said with the funding and the fact that we’re working with less than we had before. But also, if you look at the language of a lot of the bills that have been introduced that kind of focus on some of these things, you know, whether it’s different things for new moms — a lot of it has language that will polarize the other side. I think that if you see some of the packages and bills that have been put out by Republicans, there’s funding or redirecting resources for crisis pregnancy resource centers, which, you know, Democrats are not in favor of given that they don’t support abortion. And then we also have, I think, a lot of the Democrats’ bills might not specifically carve out certain things. I think that they “butt heads” …[unintelligible] … I think you have to kind of water it down, the language. And we haven’t really seen something that kind of can appeal to everyone kind of come forward, and also that doesn’t cost money. And finding that happy medium is very difficult.

Rovner: And ever was. Well, Congress hasn’t been able to do very much, but state legislatures have been really busy, right? I mean, and it’s more than just, you know, bans, working on different variations of bans. We’ve seen some very, sort of, creative ideas, right?

Luthra: It’s been fascinating to see what’s happening on the state level. One thread I actually thought of during Sandhya’s remarks was the expansion of crisis pregnancy centers, in particular in states with abortion bans, right? Putting more state funding to support them, which, for a reminder, they not only don’t support abortion; many of them don’t actually employ qualified medical personnel and are not bound by HIPAA [Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act]. We have that lawsuit from this week where the woman said she went to a crisis pregnancy center, and they missed her ectopic pregnancy. So, quite dangerous. But beyond that, what’s really interesting is Republicans in state legislatures seem like they are really trying to figure out how to navigate these tricky abortion politics, and they’re not quite sure how to go about doing it, which is why we saw the six-week abortion ban pass in Florida and in South Carolina. And then we saw differences in other states, right? North Carolina did the 12-week ban, which is being litigated right now. And what clinics are actually more concerned about there is a requirement for two in-person visits separated by three days, which they say will just make the procedure unaffordable. We saw Nebraska do a 12-week ban as well, sort of concerned that six weeks appears too extreme now that voters are responding to abortion bans. And the other thing that is just really, really interesting is: We saw at the beginning of the year some pre-filing of bills around the fetal personhood movement, around ways to try and criminalize the morning-after pill or IUDs [intrauterine devices], trying to consider whether you make the person who gets an abortion liable herself. None of those have really taken off yet, and it seems that it’s because that is a bridge that, for many in the movement, is still too far — just this concern that then they would really have to say it is not just that we are trying to quote-unquote “protect the pregnant person,” but we actually think abortion is murder itself. And so I think that will be a really interesting battle within anti-abortion lawmakers, to see how that ends up in the coming years.

Rovner: And that’s a battle that goes back like a decade and a half now. They still aren’t quite there. I think the other thing that we saw a lot of that hasn’t really come to pass are bills to try to ban travel, to try to ban pregnant women from going to other states to obtain abortions, which strikes me as something — strikes many people as something that seems probably not constitutional, but not to say that they won’t try.

Ollstein: Yeah, I think we’ve seen Idaho go the furthest down this road. Missouri was also sort of exploring it, putting a toe in the water, but it never really went anywhere. But I totally agree, Julie. I think there was so much anxiety over this past year about red states trying to reach across their borders in different ways to police abortion, whether it’s suing doctors or trying to ban travel or obtaining people’s medical records or — there was just a lot of anxiety, and you saw that reflected in what blue states passed. Blue states passed a lot of protections to stop those sort of cross-border prosecutions. But we haven’t seen the cross-border prosecutions. That hasn’t really come to fruition yet and may or may not going forward. So it’s interesting because a lot of fears of what would happen when Roe fell have played out exactly as predicted and this is one that kind of hasn’t. Two other really quick state-level things that I wanted to flag that I just think are interesting and are examples of conservatives trying to get very creative and not do just a straightforward ban. I would flag Utah is trying to ban abortion by banning abortion clinics and saying it has to only take place in hospitals. Twist: No hospital in the state will do abortions because they’re religiously affiliated. So that’s sort of a total ban in practicality, if not in name. That’s been enjoined in court. And then in Wyoming, they’ve tried to ban the pills. And pills are what people use because there are no facilities that perform abortions. And so these are ways they’re trying to get creative and do it in different ways. That has been enjoined, too. So we’ll see. But it’s very like, throw everything at the wall and see what sticks.

Rovner: And I would add to that, although I think we haven’t really talked about it on the podcast — is some cities now trying to create bans. So even within blue states there would be bans in red cities, which is another complicated legal thing.

Raman: I looked up some Guttmacher Institute data and we had fewer abortion laws adopted last year compared to the year before. It was 50 last year versus 108 the year before. And, you know, the Dobbs decision dropped after some of these states had gone out of session. But the one thing that I thought — that resonated with me because, you know, A) a lot of these states, maybe they’ve implemented wider bans or they were able to bring back older laws, but it was a drop in the number that we were seeing. And the thing that I have kind of taken away from this year is that the states that we’ve been talking about before — you know, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Florida — that are implementing these, or trying to, much stronger abortion bans are the ones that have been kind of the safe havens, quote-unquote, since the news dropped, where if you live elsewhere in the South, you are trying to go to one of these states to get an abortion. So it’s kind of like a whack-a-mole and that these are the places that have been seeing an influx of patients, especially Florida, that, you know, these are — the cracking-down there to kind of minimize that.

Rovner: So, and to go back to what we said at the beginning, that just makes abortion more expensive for people who have to leave their own state to go somewhere else. Well, we’ve been kind of dancing around this a little bit. But one of the reasons that states have not done some of the things that we thought they might do is that voters have not reacted the way we expected or, I don’t know, the way some people expected. I mean, it’s been surprising. Somebody summarize for us what voters have done on this issue in the last year.

Ollstein: Every time voters have been able to weigh in directly, they have weighed in directly against restrictions and for protections — you know, broadly. Because of that, you have a lot more activists in states trying to set up these votes for later this year, next year, the following years. Every state has different rules around this, and some states don’t allow it at all. But because of just the sweep of the pro-abortion rights side last year in six states —

Rovner: Including some pretty red states like Kentucky and Kansas.

Ollstein: Including some very red states. Yeah, although, you know, it’s a good reminder that, you know, we think in terms of red state, blue state. But, you know, it’s really nuanced. I mean, Kansas has a Democratic governor. Kentucky has a Democratic governor. But, yes, these are states that voted for Trump, have an overwhelmingly Republican state legislature. So it’s how you look at things. But, yes, very conservative, very religious. And both the vote results, but also reporting, polling, focus groups, show that even people who self-identify as very conservative and even personally anti-abortion, a lot of them are not supportive of laws that are this restrictive and think that this should be someone’s personal choice. So I think that’s why these campaigns that really had a conservative-friendly message of getting the government out of your personal business were so successful.

Luthra: And what’s been striking has been seeing the polling just in general around abortion rights. It’s been fairly stagnant up until last year. And basically every big polling organization has seen a shift, and voters are more supportive now of abortion rights than they were before, more opposed in some cases, even to, like, the second-trimester bans, which in the past were a bit more popular, and also in some cases more likely to place this as a high priority for voting. And that will be really interesting to see, especially next year, when we have more abortion rights ballot initiatives, as Alice mentioned, but also more candidates, including the president, running on abortion specifically, and seeing whether this particular issue does influence voters to become, in particular, more Democratic than they otherwise might have been.

Rovner: Yeah, it’s funny; abortion has been a big voting issue for the anti-abortion movement for years, which is how they got to this point basically. It has not been a huge issue for those who support abortion rights because a lot of people thought Roe would never go away, so they didn’t need to vote on it. And I think that’s going to be sort of a big realization. And next year is going to be the first presidential election since Roe went away. Before we leave the states, I would flag, though, the fact that, Alice, you were saying that because of the success of some of these state ballot initiatives, there are other states that are trying to do it, but there are also efforts to stop states that are trying to do it. I’m thinking mostly of Ohio and Missouri, in particular, which has a bizarre fight going on.

Ollstein: Yeah, absolutely. And those are the most immediate ones. But lots of red states took up bills this year to make direct ballot initiatives harder in lots of different ways — either, you know, raising the number of signatures that need to be collected, having weird geographical requirements for where the signatures are collected, and then the main one, which is in play in Ohio, is this question of requiring a supermajority vote to pass instead of just a bare majority. And so Ohio Republican legislators are setting up this August special vote on whether to raise the threshold from 50 to 60% to approve a ballot initiative. And they have been on the record about this specifically aimed at making sure the vote to restore abortion access in the state can’t pass in the fall. And then in Missouri, there’s all sorts of different things in play, some weird stuff, but —

Rovner: I think I can explain Missouri. The state attorney general is trying to make the state auditor change his estimate of how much it would cost if they were to pass this ballot measure expanding abortion access. And I think that the state auditor has said it would cost something like $51,000 or $51 million and that the state attorney general wants to make him increase that by a factor of 10 or a hundred. I mean, there’s just this huge fight. And of course, that would have to go on the ballot measure. So if the anti-abortion attorney general thinks if people go to the polls and see that this is going to cost millions or hundreds of millions or billions of dollars, they’re less likely to vote for it. And so that fight sort of continues. And I believe it has not been resolved yet.

Raman: And they’re both from the same party, which I think just makes it more interesting.

Rovner: Yeah. But you know, this is the first time I can remember a fight, a big important fight, between a state auditor and a state attorney general. I want to talk a little bit about what’s happened to doctors and other health professionals, because they’re kind of caught in the middle here. I mean, they had not been — I’ve written at length about the AMA [American Medical Association]’s sort of checkered history of trying to be on every single side of this issue over the years. But now we’re seeing doctors put in some pretty hairy positions, right?

Luthra: One thing I’ve been really struck by is talking to a lot of — and this is especially doctors, but true probably of all health professionals, is this idea that they didn’t have to take a position on abortion before, so many of them simply didn’t. They were happy to sort of think of it in a silo separate from the rest of their jobs. And that was because, like you said, Julie, they weren’t concerned about losing Roe. And now that we’re in this world, many of them have been really stunned to see what the consequences are, and a lot have described to me this feeling of being sort of called to political activism that they did not expect, did not train for, it’s not the job that they have — but being really pushed to talk about abortion in a way they otherwise wouldn’t have. And what we’ve also seen, of course, is many moving from states that have bans on abortion. Many of those states that have bans on abortion are also passing bans on gender-affirming care for minors, which puts even more doctors, nurses, med students, residents in a bind. We should also note that the health care workforce is a majority woman workforce, and so many of them feel personally affected by these laws as well and are factoring that in their decisions as to whether to practice. And it’s still quite early to say what the implications will be. But there is a lot of real concern in these states that already were these, you know, lower-health-care-access states, especially in rural areas, losing even more health care professionals because of the bans they’ve put in place.

Ollstein: Doctors are becoming more vocal. I think a lot of players in the medical space that haven’t been as vocal about this are weighing in, telling state legislatures, “You’re putting our members in danger.” And so I completely agree. And I think that a lot of this anxiety seems to be from the medical community, like, If we accept this intrusion into our work, what’s next? What else will state legislators who are not doctors try to dictate that we can and can’t do? And so there’s sort of a sense of, If we don’t stand up to this, we’re sort of opening the door to a lot more intrusion into the patient-provider relationship.

Raman: So I have done a lot of looking at the long-term. I’ve been following, since last year, kind of the steps with workforce because I think, for context, we’re expected in a few years to have a shortage of obstetrics providers already, given a higher percentage of women of reproductive age and a lot of folks just leaving that workforce altogether. And I have been kind of curious how this is going to affect that. And I think some of the takeaways, I think, to echo Shefali, is A) it’s early. So it’s hard to go through the data and see what is because of this, what’s because of that. But I think one thing that I’ve noticed is that it hasn’t been just obstetrics or just emergency room or family medicine. I’ve been hearing from folks in all sorts of specialties, even if they aren’t even related to this, because wherever you do your training, it might affect your family or yourself. And that is something that I’ve heard come up — you know, harassment and is there options for themselves? And I think also just unclarity in the laws. I’ve heard multiple either folks training to be physicians or who have just become them say that they didn’t go to school to become a lawyer; they went to school to become a health care provider. And having to have that intermediary and consult the legal team of the hospital in between is just very difficult for them to do their care. But datawise, I think that we had, according to the AMA, a drop in residency apps for obstetrics and gynecology, and it was higher in the more restrictive states, but it also dropped some in the states that are more progressive on abortion, like it dropped in California. So it’s kind of hard to tell so soon what that could mean. But I think if you look at what happened in Texas, which had pretty flat numbers before SB 8, and then they had a huge drop after that law was implemented and who was applying to go there, and they have the third most programs in the country — like, that can provide some clues that we could see kind of further on as we keep looking. But yeah, a lot of it’s not going to be felt for a while.

Rovner: I think two really important points there, though, is one is that it’s not just restricted to the specialties that we would think because, as you point out, health care, particularly graduating medical students, are now majority women and they are mostly of childbearing age, so they are concerned about themselves and their families. And if they’re men, they likely have partners, so they’re still considered worried about themselves and their families. So it can be kind of a big deal. And the other one, of course, is that where medical students train after medical school, where they do their residencies, is very, very indicative of where they’re going to end up practicing. So if you don’t have people training in those states, you’re going to have fewer people practicing in those states. And that we do know from way, way, way back. So I think that’s also going to be an issue going forward. Well, we are running out of time, but I wanted to go around the table once really quickly and say you’ve all been obviously very steeped in this for the last year. I want everybody to tell us sort of the one thing that’s going to stick with you most from reporting over the course of this first year without Roe. Shefali, why don’t you start?

Luthra: I think the thing that will stick with me this year and probably the rest of my life is hearing from the people who have tried to get abortions in states where they cannot, whether that was because of a wanted pregnancy that went wrong, whether that was to save their own lives, whether that was because they already had two kids and didn’t want another or they didn’t want any kids. And just the themes that you keep hearing from them, right? The anger; the betrayal; the feeling like they are less of a person because they can’t get this in their home state; the financial distress that they go through; and, in many cases, the isolation, because they have no one they can talk to about this. It’s really, really striking to hear those stories. And I think they’re some of the most important things that we as reporters can hear about and that our readers can see and internalize and think about when they conceive of what abortion bans mean.

Rovner: Sandhya.

Raman: I think the thing that sticks with me is just really how far the reverberations from this decision have gone. You know, what really comes to mind is last year when I was at an international family planning conference, this woman from a Kenyan nonprofit said to me, “You know, when the U.S. sneezes, the rest of the countries catch a cold.” And I think that was really striking and just seeing how far a U.S. court case can be felt around the world, whether it is countries that have made more progressive abortion laws or more restrictive abortion laws, kind of in the light of something the U.S. does, and just kind of how something that I think is easy to think of as just here, how that can have an effect on other leaders and the people there, or just countries that rely on the U.S. for a variety of things. So that, that really sticks with me.

Rovner: Alice.

Ollstein: Yeah. In traveling, it’s just been really striking to see how abortion bans have had these knock-on effects and limited the availability of other kinds of health care, whether that’s by putting clinics out of business or causing an exodus of doctors and residents and medical students from particular parts of the country that already were experiencing shortages and really just making these medical deserts, and particularly maternal health deserts, that were already there even worse, and just meeting people who were telling me, “I was told it would be, you know, a four-month wait just to get an IUD.” You know, these are people who are trying to prevent an unwanted pregnancy. And there’s just nowhere for them to go in a lot of places in the country, more than we think. And so just looking at people who are not pregnant, are not seeking an abortion, are also being hit by these legal changes.

Rovner: I’ve been struck just by how accurate a lot of the predictions were about what would happen if Roe went down. I mean, there were things that were unexpected. But I think most of the things, particularly the red state, blue state, have and have-not, have been exactly what people predicted would happen. All right. It is time for our extra credit segment. That’s normally when we each recommend a story we read this week that we think you should read too. This week, though, I’ve asked the panelists to choose their favorite story about reproductive health that they have written in this past year. As always, don’t worry if you miss it. We will post the links on the podcast page at kffhealthnews.org and in our show notes on your phone or other mobile device. Sandhya, why don’t you go first this week?

Raman: So the story I picked is called “Conservatives Use Abortion Strategies in Fight Over Trans Care,” and I wrote this for Roll Call in February. What I did was kind of take a look at how we got to the Dobbs decision in the first place, is after the passing of legislation and the litigation and a number of state abortion laws and how those parallels are pretty striking to what’s been happening with trans health right now that has been really ramping up as a political messaging issue. And so, you know, in some cases it’s been very clear, where they’ve been putting language about abortion and gender-affirming care in the same bill, or restrictions there. But I think there are a lot of parallels that I was kind of finding in that, you know, starting with minors and then scaling up in restrictions or looking at science that’s odds with major medical organizations or messaging on safety or looking to penalize doctors or just, like, amplifying very rare cases of regret — that kind of thing. And so looking forward, that’s something that just keeps resonating with me as something to watch, that the abortion blueprint is not unique. It’s going to be there for other things.

Rovner: Alice.

Ollstein: So I chose the piece I did from the ground in Kansas when they voted. They were the first state where voters could weigh in directly on abortion access post-Roe, and it just revealed so many things that continue to be true for the states that are voting on this. It was just such a clear preview of what was to come. It was the flood of out-of-state money and staff on both sides. It was just how heated it got on the ground. It was the attempts by Republican state legislatures to structurally make it harder for folks to vote and more likely for things to go their way. And yet it was a blowout vote for the pro-abortion rights side in the end. And that was just such a preview of what was to come on both sides, and just being there on the ground and being able to see this and to see how people were feeling when the Dobbs decision was so fresh will really stay with me.

Rovner: Shefali.

Luthra: My story published in May at the anniversary of the Dobbs leak. It’s called “93 Days: The Summer America Lost Roe v. Wade.” And for this, it was an oral history that my editor and I had talked about. And we spent a few months working on it, talking to a dozen different folks about what it was like to live through last summer, from the Dobbs leak to the Dobbs decision up to the Kansas election. And there are stories from doctors; from politicians; from activists; people who organized on the Kansas abortion rights initiative; lawmakers who talked about their experience of learning of the decision; Kristan Hawkins, the head of Students for Life. But the people whose stories I think are most worth reading are the, I think it was three women I spoke to, who talked about their experiences navigating abortion, including one woman who was trying to schedule her abortion. She was in line at Disney when the decision came out and she found out her appointment had been canceled. She was never able to get another one and she had a baby soon afterward. There was another who was taking her medication abortion pills at home when the decision was revealed, and she wasn’t sure if she was breaking the law by taking misoprostol in her bathtub. And I think these stories just — they really cemented for me that this is not only the world that we live in, but that these are the real-life implications on the people who are affected. And I just always really love getting a chance to tell those stories.

Rovner: Well, my story is a piece that I wrote last July, so almost a year ago, called “Three Things About the Abortion Debate That Many People Get Wrong.” And one myth, of course, is that abortion bans and restrictions would only affect people seeking abortions, which we now know in sometimes horrifying detail is not true. Women with very wanted pregnancies gone wrong are also caught in the crossfire, and, as we said, forced to travel long distances or wait until they are literally at death’s door to get needed care. But it’s worth reminding people about the other two myths. One is that Congress could have codified abortion rights at any time since Roe but never really tried very hard, and the other one that Congress could have acted in 2022 — the end of last year — when Democrats still had majorities, albeit very tiny ones, in the House and Senate. In fact, Congress never had the votes to enshrine abortion rights for the entire life of Roe. There were several attempts to do that, many of which I personally covered. And to those who think Congress could have done something last year, I ask, “Have you met Democratic Senators Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema?” That wasn’t going to happen either. All right. Well, that is our show for this week. As always, if you enjoy the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left us a review; that helps other people find us, too. Special thanks, as always, to our producer, Francis Ying. Also as always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org. Or you can tweet me. I’m @jrovner.

Rovner: Shefali?

Luthra: I’m @shefalil.

Rovner: Sandhya.

Raman: I’m @SandhyaWrites.

Rovner: Alice.

Ollstein: @AliceOllstein.

Rovner: We are taking next week off for the Fourth of July holiday, so we will be back in your feed with our regular news update on July 13. Until then, be healthy.

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Julie Rovner is chief Washington correspondent and host of KFF Health News’ weekly health policy news podcast, “What the Health?” A noted expert on health policy issues, Julie is the author of the critically praised reference book “Health Care Politics and Policy A to Z,” now in its third edition.

In this special episode of KFF Health News’ “What the Health?” host and chief Washington correspondent Julie Rovner leads a rare conversation with the current and two former secretaries of Health and Human Services. Taped before a live audience at Aspen Ideas: Health, part of the Aspen Ideas Festival, in Aspen, Colorado, Secretary Xavier Becerra and two of his predecessors, Kathleen Sebelius and Alex Azar, talk candidly about what it takes to run a department with more than 80,000 employees and a budget larger than those of many countries.

Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:

• The Department of Health and Human Services is much more than a domestic agency. It also plays a key role in national security, the three HHS secretaries explained, describing the importance of the “soft diplomacy” of building and supporting health systems abroad.
• Each HHS secretary — Sebelius, who served under former President Barack Obama; Azar, who served under former President Donald Trump; and Becerra, the current secretary, under President Joe Biden — offered frank, sobering, and even funny stories about interacting with the White House. “Anything you thought you were going to do during the day often got blown up by the White House,” Sebelius said. Asked what he was unprepared for when he started the job, Azar quipped: “The Trump administration.”
• Identifying their proudest accomplishment as the nation’s top health official, Azar and Becerra both cited their work responding to the covid-19 pandemic, specifically Operation Warp Speed, the interagency effort to develop and disseminate vaccines, and H-CORE, which Becerra described as a quiet successor to Warp Speed. They also each touted their respective administrations’ efforts to regulate tobacco.
• Having weathered recent debates over the separation of public policy and politics at the top health agency, the panel discussed how they’ve approached balancing the two in decision-making. For Becerra, the answer was unequivocal: “We use the facts and the science. We don’t do politics.”

Click to open the transcript

Transcript: Live From Aspen: Three HHS Secretaries on What the Job Is Really Like

KFF Health News’ ‘What the Health?’

Episode Title: Live From Aspen: Three HHS Secretaries on What the Job Is Really Like

Episode Number: 303

Published: June 22, 2023

[Editor’s note: This transcript, generated using transcription software, has been edited for style and clarity.]

Julie Rovner: Hello and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Julie Rovner, coming to you this week from the Aspen Ideas: Health conference in Aspen, Colorado. We have a cool special for you this week. For the first time, the current secretary of Health and Human Services sat down for a joint interview with two of his predecessors. This was taped before a live audience on Wednesday evening, June 21, in Aspen. So, as we like to say, here we go.

Hello. Good evening. Welcome to Aspen Ideas: Health. I’m Julie Rovner. I’m the chief Washington correspondent for KFF Health News and also host of KFF Health News’ health policy podcast, “What the Health?,” which you are now all the audience for, so thank you very much. I’m sure these people with me need no introduction, but I’m going to introduce them anyway because I think that’s required.

Immediately to my left, we are honored to welcome the current U.S. secretary of Health and Human Services, Xavier Becerra. Secretary Becerra is the first Latino to serve in this post. He was previously attorney general of the state of California. And before that, he served in the U.S. House of Representatives for nearly 25 years, where, as a member of the powerful Ways and Means Committee, he helped draft and pass what’s now the Affordable Care Act. Thank you for joining us.

Next to him, we have Kathleen Sebelius, who served as secretary during the Obama administration from 2009 to 2014, where she also helped pass and implement the Affordable Care Act. I first met Secretary Sebelius when she was Kansas’ state insurance commissioner, a post she was elected to twice. She went on to be elected twice as governor of the state, which is no small feat in a very red state for a Democrat. Today, she also consults on health policy and serves on several boards, including — full disclosure — that of my organization, KFF. Thank you so much for being here.

And on the end we have Alex Azar, who served as HHS secretary from 2018 to 2021 and had the decidedly mixed privilege of leading the department through the first two years of the covid pandemic, which I’m sure was not on his to-do list when he took the job. At least Secretary Azar came to the job with plenty of relevant experience. He’d served in the department previously as HHS deputy secretary and as general counsel during the George W. Bush administration and later as a top executive at U.S. drugmaker Eli Lilly. Today, he advises a health investment firm, teaches at the University of Miami Herbert Business School, and sits on several boards, including the Aspen Institute’s. So, thank you.

Former Secretary of Health and Human Services Alex Azar: Thank you.

Rovner: So I know you’re not here to listen to me, so we’re going to jump in with our first question. As I’m sure we will talk about in more detail, HHS is a vast agency that includes, just on the health side, agencies including the Food and Drug Administration, the National Institutes of Health, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, and the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services. The department has more than 80,000 employees around the country and throughout the world and oversees more than one and a half trillion dollars of federal funding each year. I want to ask each of you — I guess we’ll start with you — what is the one thing you wish the public understood about the department that you think they don’t really now?

Secretary of Health and Human Services Xavier Becerra: Given everything you just said, I wish people would understand that the Constitution left health care to the states. And so, as big as we are and as much as we do — Medicare, Medicaid, CHIP [Children’s Health Insurance Program], Obamacare — we still don’t control or drive health care. The only way we get in the game is when we put money into it. And that’s why people do Medicare, because we put money into it. States do Medicaid because we put money into it. And it became very obvious with covid that the federal government doesn’t manage health care. We don’t have a national system of health or public health. We have a nationwide system of public health where 50 different states determine what happens, and so one state may do better than another, and we’re out there trying to make it work evenhandedly for everyone in America. But it’s very tough because we don’t have a national system of public health.

Rovner: Secretary, what’s the thing that you wish people understood about HHS?

Former Secretary of Health and Human Services Kathleen Sebelius: Well, I agree with what Secretary Becerra has said, but it always made me unhappy that people don’t understand fully, I don’t think, the international role that HHS plays, and it is so essential to the safety and security and resilience of the United States. So we have employees across the world. CDC has employees in about 40 other countries, and helping to build health systems in various parts of the world, sharing information about how you stand up a health system, what a great hospital looks like. NIH does experiments and clinical trials all over the globe and is regarded as the gold standard. And we actually, I think, at HHS were able to do what they call soft diplomacy. And a lot of countries aren’t eager to have the State Department involved. They’re certainly not eager to see soldiers. Our trade policies make some people uncomfortable. But they welcome health professionals. They welcome the opportunity to learn from the United States. So it’s really a way often to get into countries and make friendships. And we need to monitor across the globe, as covid showed so well. When an outbreak happens someplace else in the world, we can’t wait for it to arrive on the border of the United States. Safety and security of American citizens really depends on global information exchange, a global surveillance exchange. The CDC has also trained epidemiologists in regions around the world so that they can be faster and share information. And I think too often in Congress, those line items for foreign trips, for offices elsewhere, people say, “Well, we don’t really need that. We should focus all our attention on America.” But I’ve always thought, if folks really understood how integral it is not just to our health security, but really national security, that we have these partnerships — and it’s, as I say, I think the best soft diplomacy and the cheapest soft diplomacy underway is to send health professionals all over the globe and to make those friendships.

Rovner: Do you think people understand that better since covid?

Sebelius: Maybe. You know, but some people reacted, unfortunately, to covid, saying, “Well, we put up bigger walls, and we” — I mean, no disease needs a passport, no wall stops things from coming across our borders. And I’m not sure that still is something that people take to heart.

Rovner: Secretary Azar, you actually have the most — in terms of years — experience at the department. What is it that people don’t know that they should?

Azar: So I probably would have led with what Secretary Becerra said about just how highly decentralized the public health infrastructure and leadership and decision-making is in the United States. I mean, it really — all those calls are made, and it’s not even just the 50 states. It’s actually 62 public health jurisdictions, because we separately fund a whole series of cities. I’ll concur in that. I’d say the other thing that people probably don’t understand, and maybe this is too inside baseball, is the secretary of HHS is, on the one hand, probably the most powerful secretary in the Cabinet and, on the other hand, also quite weak. So literally every authority, almost every authority, in the thousands and thousands of pages of U.S. statute that empower programs at HHS, say, “The secretary shall …” So the FDA, the CDC, CMS, all of these programs really operate purely by delegation of the secretary, because Secretary Becerra allows them to make decisions or to run programs. They are his authorities. And so the media, then, when the secretary acts, will … [unintelligible] … “How dare you,” you know, “how dare you be involved in this issue or that issue?” Well, it is legally and constitutionally Secretary Becerra’s job. And, on the other hand, you are supervising — it’s like a university, because you’re also supervising operating divisions that are global household brands. It is really like being a university president, for all that’s good and evil of that. You have to lead by consensus. You have to lead by bringing people along. You are not a dictator, in spite of what the U.S. statutes say. It’s very, very similar to that — that you, the secretary, is both powerful, but also has to really lead a highly matrixed, consensus-based organization to get things done.

Rovner: You’re actually leading perfectly into my next question, which is, how do you juggle all the moving pieces of this department? Just putting the agency heads in one room could fill a room this size. So tell us what sort of an average day for each of you would look like as secretary, if there’s such a thing as an average day.

Azar: Well, first, not an average administration, so take with a grain of salt my average day. So, interspersed among the two to five phone calls with the president of the United States between 7 a.m. and midnight, you know, other than that, um — I started every day meeting with my — you know, as secretary, you’ve got to have a team around you that’s not just your operating divisions, but I would start every morning — we would have just a huddle with chief of staff, deputy chief of staff, my head of public affairs. Often my general counsel would join that, my legislative leader. Just what’s going to hit us in the face today? Like, what are we trying to do, and what’s going to hit us in the face today? Just a situational awareness, every morning at about 8 a.m., quick huddle on that, and then diving into really the rhythm of the day of — I tried to drive — I use a book that I helped actually do some of the work on called “The 4 Disciplines of Execution,” just a tool of how do you focus and drive change in very complex organizations? So I tried to focus on four key initiatives that I spent as much of my time as secretary on leading and pushing on, and so I tried to make sure as much of my time was doing that. But then it’s reactive. You’re having to go to White House meetings constantly. You have to sign off on every regulation at the department. And so you’re in meetings just getting briefed and deciding approve or disapprove, so that rhythm constantly, and then add travel in, add evening commitments, add speeches. I’d say the biggest challenge you have as a leader in HHS is that first point of, focus, because you could be like a bobber on the water, just going with whatever’s happening, if you don’t have a maniacally focused agenda of, “I’ve got a limited amount of time. I’m going to drive change here. And if I don’t spend time every day pushing the department on this issue, being basically a burr in the saddle to make it happen, it won’t.” And you’ve just got to constantly be on that.

Rovner: Secretary Sebelius, what did your average day look like?

Sebelius: Well, I’m not going to repeat what Alex has just said. A lot of that goes on in the daily routine. First of all, I think all of us would be sent home the night before with a binder of materials — briefings for what you’re going to do the next day. So you may have 10 meetings, but each of those has a 20-page brief behind it. And then what the issues are, what the questions might be. So that’s your homework often that you’re leaving with at 7 or 8 at night. I like to run in the morning, and I would get up, read my schedule, and then go out and run on the [National] Mall because it sort of cleared my head. I’m proud of having — some of the folks may still be here — none of the detail ran before I started running, and my deal with them was, “I’m much older than you are, you know. We’re all going to run.”

Azar: They still —

Sebelius: Oh, here we go.

Azar: They still talk about it.

Sebelius: Well, one of them got to be a great marathon runner, you know. Can’t hurt. One guy started riding a bike, and I was like, “What are you doing?” I mean, if I fall, what are you going to do with the bike? I mean, am I going to carry it, are you going to carry it? I mean, who — anyway, so I started that way. You’d go then into the office. And one of the things that was not mentioned is HHS has an amazing, camera-ready studio, TV studio, that lots of other Cabinet agencies used. It has a setting that looks like “The View.” It has a stool that you can look in cameras, but two or three days a week we would do what they call “Around the Country.” So you would sit in a stool, and I’d be doing updates on the ACA or a pitch to enrollment or something about a disease, and you would literally have a cue card up that would say “Minneapolis, Andrea.” And I would say, “Good morning, Andrea.” And we would do a two-second spot in Minneapolis and they’d have numbers for me and then the camera would switch and it would be Bob in St. Louis. “Hello, Bob. How are you?” So that was a morning start that’s a little bit different. Anything you thought you were going to do during the day often got blown up by the White House: somebody calling, saying, you know, “The president wants this meeting,” “the vice president’s calling this.” So then the day gets kind of rearranged. And I think the description of who the key staff are around, but 12 operating agencies — any one of them could be a much more than full-time job. So just getting to know the NIH or, you know, seeing what CDC in Atlanta does every day, but trying to keep the leadership in touch, in tune, and make sure that — one of the things that, having been a governor and working with Cabinet agencies, that I thought was really important, is everybody has some input on everything. These are the stars, the agency heads. They know much more about health and their agencies than I would ever know. But making sure that I have their input and their lens on every decision that was made. So we had regular meetings where the flatter the organization, the better, as far as I’m concerned. They were all there and they gave input into policy decisions. But it is not a boring job and it’s never done. You just had to say at the end of the day, with this giant book, “OK, that’s enough for today. I’ll start again tomorrow, and there’ll be another giant book and here we go.”

Rovner: And your day, since you’re doing it now?

Becerra: I don’t know if it’s the pleasure or the bane of starting off virtually. Almost everything we did was via Zoom. I didn’t meet many of my team until months into the term because we were in the midst of covid. So we would start the days usually pretty early in the morning with Zooms and it would go one Zoom after the other. Of course, once we started doing more in-person activities, schedulers still thought they could schedule you pretty much one right after the other, and so they pack in as much as they can. I think all of us would say we’re just blessed to have some of the most talented people. I see Commissioner Califf from the FDA over there in the room. I will tell you, it’s just a yes … [applause] … . It’s a blessing to get to serve with these folks. They are the best in their fields. And you’re talking about some pretty critical agencies, FDA, NIH, CDC, CMS. I mean, the breadth, the jurisdiction, of CMS is immense. They do fabulous work. They are so committed. And so it makes it a lot easier. And then, of course, we all — we each have had — I have my group of counselors who are essentially my captains of the different agencies, and they help manage, because without that it would be near-impossible. And these are people who are younger, but my God, they’re the folks that every CEO looks for to sort of help manage an agency, and they’re so committed to the task. And so I feel like a kid in a candy store because I’m doing some of the things that I worked on so long when I was a member of Congress and could never get over the finish line. Now I get to sort of nudge everything over the finish line, and it really is helpful, as Alex said, to remind people that the statute does say, “The secretary shall … ,” not someone else, “the secretary shall … .” And so, at the end of the day, you get to sort of weigh it. And so it’s a pleasure to work with very talented, committed people.

Sebelius: Julie, I want to throw in one more thing, because I think this is back to what people don’t know, but it’s also about our days. There’s an assumption, when administrations change, the whole agency changes, right? Washington all changes. In a department like HHS, 90,000 employees scattered in the country and around the world, there are about 900 total political appointees, and they are split among all the agencies and the secretary’s office there. So you’re really talking about this incredibly talented team of professionals who are running those agencies and have all the health expertise, with the few people across the top that may try to change directions and put — but I think there’s an assumption that sort of the whole group sweeps out and somebody else sweeps in, and that really is not the case.

Rovner: So, as I mentioned, all three of you had relevant government experience before you came to HHS. Secretary Sebelius, you were a governor, so you knew about running a large organization. I want to ask all three of you, did you really understand what you were getting into when you became secretary? And is there some way to grow up to become HHS secretary?

Azar: I mean, yeah, I — yeah, I have no excuse. My first day, right after getting sworn in — the secretary has a private elevator that goes directly up to the sixth floor where the suite is, the deputy secretary’s office to the right, secretary to the left — my first day, I’m up, headed up with my security detail, and I get off and I walk off to the right. “Mr. Secretary, no, no, no. It’s this way.” Literally, it was like — it had been 11 years, but it was like coming home to me. I was literally about to walk into my old office as deputy secretary, and they show me to the secretary’s office. And I think for the first three months, I kept thinking Tommy Thompson or Mike Leavitt was going to walk in and say, “Get the hell out of my office.” And no, so it, and it was the same people, as Secretary Sebelius said. I knew all the top career people. I’d worked with them over the course of — in and out of government — 20 years. So it was very much a “coming home” for me. And it was many of the same issues were still the same issues. Sustainable growth rate — I mean, whatever else, it was all the same things going on again, except the ACA was new. That was a new nice one you gave me to deal with also. So, yeah, thank you.

Sebelius: You’re welcome. We had to have something new.

Rovner: What were you unprepared for when you took on this job?

Azar: Well, for me, the Trump administration.

Rovner: Yeah, that’s fair.

Azar: I, you know, had come out of the Bush administration. You’re at Eli Lilly. I mean, you know, you’re used to certain processes and ways people interact. And, you know, it’s just — it was different.

Sebelius: I had a pretty different experience. The rhythm of being a governor and being a Cabinet secretary is pretty similar. Cabinet agencies, working with the legislative process, the budget. So I kind of had that sense. I had no [Capitol] Hill experience. I had not worked on the Hill or served on the Hill, so that was a whole new entity. You’re not by protocol even allowed in the department until you’re confirmed. So I had never even seen the inside of the office. I mean, Alex talked about being confused about which way to turn. I mean, I had no idea [about] anything on the sixth floor. I hadn’t ever been there. My way of entering the department — I was President [Barack] Obama’s second choice. [Former South Dakota Democratic Senator] Tom Daschle had been nominated to be HHS secretary. And that was fine with me. And I said, “I’m a governor. I’ve got two more years in my term. I’ll join you sometime.” And then when Sen. Daschle withdrew, the president came back to me and said, “OK, how about, would you take this job if you’re able to get it?” And I said, “Yes, that’s an agency that’s interesting and challenging.” So I still was a governor, so I was serving as governor, flying in and out of D.C. to get briefings so I could go through hearings on this department that I didn’t know a lot about and had never really worked with, and then would go back and do my day job in Kansas. And the day that the Senate confirmation hearing began, a call came to our office from the White House. And this staffer said, “This governor? “Yes.” “President Obama has a plane in the air. It’s going to land at Forbes Air Force Base at noon. We want you on the plane.” And I said, you know, “That’s really interesting, but I don’t have a job yet. And I actually have a job here in Kansas. And here’s my plan. You know, my plan is I’m going to wait until I get confirmed and then I’ll resign and then I’ll get on the plane and then I’ll come to D.C.” And they said, “The president has a plane in the air, and it will land. He wants you on the plane.” First boss I’d had in 20 years. And I thought, “Oh, oh, OK. That’s a new thing.” So I literally left. Secretary Azar has heard this story earlier, but I left an index card on my desk in Kansas that said, “In the event I am confirmed, I hereby resign as governor.” And it was notarized and left there because I thought, I’m not giving up this job, not knowing if I will have another job. But halfway across the country I was confirmed and they came back and said — so I land and I said, “Where am I going?” I, literally, where — I mean, I’m all by myself, you know, it’s like, where am I going? “You’re going to the White House. The president’s going to swear you in.” “Great.” Except he couldn’t swear me in. He didn’t have the statutory authority, it turns out, so he could hold the Bible and the Cabinet secretary could swear me in. And then I was taken to the Situation Room, with somebody leading the way because I’d never been to the Situation Room. And the head of the World Health Organization was on the phone, the health minister from Canada, the health minister from Mexico, luckily my friend Janet Napolitano, who was Department of Homeland Security secretary — because we were in the middle of the H1N1 outbreak, swine flu, nobody knew what was going on. It was, you know, an initial pandemic. And everybody met and talked for a couple of hours. And then they all got up and left the room and I thought, woo-hoo, I’m the Cabinet secretary, you know, and they left? And somebody said to me later, well, “Does the White House find you a place to live?” I said, “Absolutely not. Nobody even asked if I had a place to stay.” I mean, it was 11 o’clock at night. They were all like, “Good night,” “goodbye,” “see ya.” So I luckily had friends in D.C. who I called and said, “Are you up? Can I come over? I’d like somebody to say, ‘Yay,’ you know, ‘we’re here.’” So that’s how I began.

Rovner: So you are kind of between these two. You have at least a little more idea of what it entailed. But what were you unprepared for in taking on this job?

Becerra: Probably the magnitude. Having served in Congress, I knew most of the agencies within HHS. I had worked very closely with most of the bigger agencies at HHS. As AG — Alex, I apologize — I sued HHS quite a —

Azar: He sued me a lot.

Becerra: Quite a few times.

Azar: Becerra v. Azar, all over the place.

Becerra: But the magnitude. I thought running the largest department of justice in the land other than the U.S. Department of Justice was a pretty big deal. But then you land and you have this agency that just stretches everywhere. And I agree with everything that Kathleen said earlier about the role that we play internationally. We are some of the best ambassadors for this country in the world because everyone wants you to help them save lives. And so it really helps. So the magnitude — it just struck me. When President Biden came in, we lost the equivalent of about — what, 13 9/11 twin tower deaths one day. Every day we were losing 11 twin tower deaths. And it hits you: You’ve got to come up with the answer yesterday. And so the White House is not a patient place, and they want answers quickly. And so you’re just, you’re on task. And it really is — it’s on you. You really — it smothers you, because you can’t let it go. And whether it was covid at the beginning or monkeypox last year, all of a sudden we see monkeypox, mpox, starting to pop up across the country. And it was, could this become the next covid? And so right away you’ve got to smother it. And the intensity is immediate. Probably the thing that I wasn’t prepared for as well, along with the magnitude, was, as I said, the breadth. Came in doing all these Zooms virtually to try to deal with the pandemic. But probably the thing that I had to really zero in on even more, that the president was expecting us to zero in on more, was migrant kids at the border and how you deal with not having a child sleep on a cement floor with an aluminum blanket and just trying to deal with that. It won’t overwhelm you necessarily, but — and again, thank God you’ve got just people who are so committed to this, because at any hour of the day and night, you’re working on these things — but the immensity of the task, because it’s real. And other departments also have very important responsibilities — clearly, Department of Defense, Department of State. But really it truly is life-and-death at HHS. So the gravity, it hits you, and it’s nonstop.

Rovner: All three of you were secretary at a time when health was actually at the top of the national agenda — which is not true. I’ve been covering HHS since 1986, and there have been plenty of secretaries who sort of were in the back of the administration, if you will, but you all really were front and center in all of these things. I want to go to sort of down the line. What was the hardest decision you had to make as secretary?

Becerra: Um …

Rovner: You’re not finished yet. I should say so far.

Becerra: I mean, there have been a lot of tough decisions, but, you know, when your team essentially prepares them up and you have all this discussion, but by the time it gets to me, it really has been baked really, really well. And now it’s sort of, White House is looking at this, we are seeing some of this, we’ve got to make a call. And again, Dr. Califf could speak to this as well. At the end of the day, the decisions aren’t so much difficult. It’s that they’re just very consequential. Do you prepare for a large surge in omicron and therefore spend a lot of money right now getting ready? Or do you sort of wait and see a little bit longer, preserve some of your money so you can use some of that money to do the longer-term work that needs to be done to prepare for the next generation of the viruses that are coming? Because once you spend the dollar, you don’t have it anymore. So you got to make that call. Those are the things that you’re constantly dealing with. But again, it just really helps to have a great team.

Sebelius: So I would say I was totally fortunate that the pandemic we dealt with was relatively short-lived and luckily far, far milder than what consumed both the secretaries to my left and right, and that was fortunate. A lot of our big decision areas were under the rubric of the Affordable Care Act and both trying to get it passed and threading that needle but then implementation. And I — you know, thinking about that question, Julie, I would say one of the toughest decisions — just because it provided a real clash between me and some of the people in the White House; luckily, at the end of the day, not the president, but — was really about the contraception coverage. Reproductive health had been something I’d worked on as a legislator, as governor. I felt very strongly about it. We’d fought a lot of battles in Kansas around it, and part of the Affordable Care Act was a preventive services benefit around contraceptive care. And that was going to be life-changing for a lot of women. And how broad it should be, how many battles we were willing to take on, how that could be implemented became a clash. And I think there were people in the administration who were hopeful that you could avoid clashes. So just make a compromise, you know, eliminate this group or that group, who may get unhappy about it. And at the end of the day, I was helped not just by people in the department, but mobilized some of my women Cabinet friends and senior White House women friends. And we sort of had a little bit of a facedown. And as I say, the president ended up saying, “OK, we’ll go big. We’ll go as big as we possibly can.” But I look back on that as a — I mean, it was a consequential decision, and it was implementation — not passing the rag in the first place, but implementing it. And it had a big impact. A big impact. It’s not one I regret, but it got a little a little tense inside, but what would be friendly meetings.

Azar: I’d use the divide Secretary Becerra talked about, which is that consequential versus hard decisions, that a lot — I think one could have a Hamlet-like character. I don’t. And so making the call when it comes to you wasn’t a terribly difficult thing, even. These are life-and-death decisions, but still yourself, you know your thought processes, you think it through, it’s been baked very well, you’ve heard all sides. You just have to make that call. So I’d maybe pivot to probably it’s more of a process thing. The hardest aspect for me was just deciding when do you fight and when do you not fight with, say, the White House? What hills do you die on? And where do you say, “Yeah, not what I would do, but I just have to live to fight another day.” Those were probably the toughest ones to really wrestle with.

Rovner: Was there one where you really were ready to die on the hill?

Azar: There were a lot. There were a lot. I mean, I’ll give you one example. I mean, I left a lot of blood on the field of battle just to try to outlaw pharmaceutical rebates, to try to push those through to the point of sale. I probably stayed to the end just to get that dag — because I, the opponents had left the administration and I finally got that daggone rule across the finish line right at the end. And that was something that I felt incredibly strongly that you could never actually change. I’ve lived inside that world. You could never change the dynamic of pharmaceutical drug pricing without passing through rebates to the point of sale. And I had so many opponents to get that done. It was a three-year constant daily battle that felt vindicated then to get it done. But that was a fight.

Rovner: And of course, I can’t help but notice that all of the things that you all are talking about are things that are still being debated today. None of them are completely resolved. Let’s turn this around a little bit. I wanted to ask you what you’re most proud of actually getting accomplished. Was it the rebate rule? That was a big deal.

Azar: For me, it has to be Operation Warp Speed. …[applause] … Yeah. Thank you. That was just — I mean, and I don’t want to take the credit. I mean, it was public-private. Mark Esper, this could not have happened without the partnership of the Defense Department, and it could not have happened without Mark Esper as secretary, because — I guarantee you, I’ve dealt with a lot of SecDefs in my career — and when the secretary of defense says to you, “Alex, you have the complete power and support of the Department of Defense. You just tell me what you need.” I haven’t heard those words before. And he was a partner and his whole team a partner throughout. And when you have the muscle of the U.S. military behind you to get something done, it is miraculous what happens. I mean, we were making hundreds of millions of doses of commercial-scale vaccine in June of 2020, when we were still in phase 2 clinical trials. We were just making it at risk. So we’re pumping this stuff out. And in one of the factories, a pump goes down. The pump is on the other side of the country on a train. The U.S. military shoots out a fighter jet, it gets out there, stops the train, pulls the train over, puts it on a helicopter, gets it on the jet, zips it off to the factory. We have colonels at every single manufacturing facility, and they get this installed. We’re up and running within 24 hours. It would have taken six to nine months under normal process. But the U.S. military got that done. So that for me was like just — the other two quick, one was banning flavored e-cigarettes. We got 25% reduction in youth use of tobacco in 12 months as a result of that. And then one of the great public health victories that this country had and the world had got ignored because it got concluded in June of 2020: We had the 11th Ebola outbreak. It was in the war zone in the eastern Democratic Republic of the Congo. This was the pandemic I was really, really worried about. One-hundred seventy-four warring groups in the war zone in the eastern Congo. Got [WHO Director-General] Tedros [Adhanom Ghebreyesus] and [then-Director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases Anthony] Fauci and [then-CDC Director Robert] Redfield, and we went over and we went on the ground and we got that. And by June of 2020, that one got out, which was a miracle of global public health. I’m with Kathleen on that one; I think global public health is a key instrument of American power projection humanity around the world. Sorry to go so long.

Rovner: It’s OK. Your turn.

Sebelius: I think proudest is the ability to participate in the Affordable Care Act and push that over the finish line. And for me, it was a really personal journey. My father was in Congress and was one of the votes for Medicare and Medicaid to be passed, so that chunk of the puzzle. I was the insurance commissioner in Kansas when the Republican governor asked me to do the implementation of the Children’s Health Insurance Program. So I helped with that piece. I was on President [Bill] Clinton’s patient protection commission and ended up with a lot of that package in the Affordable Care Act. And then finally to work for and support and watch a president who basically said when he announced for president, “This is my priority in my first term: I want to pass a major health care bill.” And a lot of people had made that pledge. But 15 months later, there was a bill on his desk and he signed it, and we got to implement it. So that was thrilling. Yeah. And, I should tell you, then-Congressman Becerra was one of the wingmen in the House who I worked with carefully, who — there was no better vote counter than Nancy Pelosi, but by her side was this guy, part of her delegation, named Xavier Becerra, who was whipping the votes into place. So he played a key role in making sure that crossed the finish line.

Becerra: So I’m still here, so you’re going to have to —

Rovner: You can change your answer later.

Becerra: I need a bit of grace here, because I’m going to start with Warp Speed, because I bet no one here knows there’s no longer a Operation Warp Speed. It’s now called H-CORE. And the reason I’m very proud of that is because you don’t know that it’s now H-CORE. And what makes it such a good thing is that the Department of Defense no longer has any role in the protection of the American people from covid. It’s all done in-house at HHS. Everything used to be done essentially under the auspices of the Department of Defense, because they are just the folks that can get things done in 24 hours. We do that now, and it’s the operations that were begun a while back. Kathleen had them, Alex had them. Our ASPR, that’s our Preparedness and Response team, they’re doing phenomenal work, but you don’t know it, and you don’t know that H-CORE took to flight in the first year of the Biden administration. By December of 2021, Department of Defense had transferred over all those responsibilities to us, and we’ve been doing it since. But if you ask me what am I most proud of, it’s, I mean, there are more Americans today than ever in the history of this country who have the ability to pay for their own health care because they have health insurance, more than 300 million. Part of that is Obamacare; a record number, 16 and a half million Americans, get their insurance through the marketplaces, and we haven’t stopped yet. There are close to 700 million shots of covid vaccine that have gone into the arms of Americans. That’s never been done in the history of this country. Some of you are probably familiar with three digits, 988, at a time when Americans are … [applause] … 9 in 10 Americans would tell you that America is experiencing a mental health crisis, especially with our youth. And Congress got wise and said, instead of having in different parts of the country, based on region, you could call a phone number for a suicide lifeline, if you didn’t know the 10-digit number or what part of the country you were in, you were out of luck — today, all you have to do is dial 988. But as I said before, federal government doesn’t run mental health. It’s all done by the states. But President Biden is very committed to mental health. His budgets have surpassed any type of investments that have been called for by any president in history for mental health. And he was very committed to 988 to make sure it launched right. And so we have, by exponential numbers, put money into 988 to make sure every state was ready to have it launch. And so by July of 2022, we launched 988, and it is working so well that people are actually calling — actually, not just calling. We now have a text feature and a chat feature because surprise, surprise, young people prefer not to call; they actually prefer to text. And we have increased the number of Americans who are reaching out by over 2 million, which is great, but it’s also not great because it shows you how much Americans are hurting. So there’s so many things I can tell you that I feel very good about that we’re doing. We’re not done. We’re moving beyond on tobacco where Alex left. We’re now moving to ban menthol in cigarettes. Menthol cigarettes are the most popular brand of cigarettes in America. They hook you because of the menthol, and we’re moving to extract menthol. We’re moving to ban flavored cigars and cigarillos. And we may be on course to try to see if we can move to extract as much nicotine out of tobacco as possible before it becomes a product on the market for folks to smoke. So we’re doing a whole lot of things there. And obviously on vaping, e-cigarettes as well — and Dr. Califf could mention that. But I’ll say the thing I’m probably most proud of is that, out of all the government agencies in America, federal government agencies, HHS ranks No. 2 as the best place to work. And I will tell you we’re No. 2, because if we had the capacity to tell our workforce, we will fly you to the moon and back the way NASA does, we’d be No. 1. So that’s what I think I’m most proud of, is that people, as hard as we work them, still say, “Come work at HHS.”

Rovner: So all of you have mentioned these things that were really hard to do because of politics. And you’ve all talked about how some of these decisions, when they get to you, have been baked by your staff and, you know, they vetted it with every side. But I think the public feels like politics determine everything. And I think you all would like to think that policy is what helps determine most things. So, what’s the balance? How much does politics determine what gets done, and how much is it just the idea that this would be the right policy for the American public?

Azar: Mike Leavitt, who was the secretary when I was deputy secretary, he had a phrase, and I’ll probably mangle it, but it was essentially, “Facts for science, and politics for policy.” And it’s important to remember this distinction. So, facts are facts. You gather data. We are especially a data-generating agency. But on top of that are policy overlays. And there are choices that are made about how do you use those facts? What do those facts mean? What are the implications? The United States Constitution vests under Article 2 in the president of the United States to make those choices and, as his delegee, the secretary and the other appointed leaders of the department. So there’s often this notion of politicizing science, but it’s, are there facts? Facts are facts. You generate facts. But what are the implications for policymaking? And I don’t think there’s anything illegitimate — I think is completely appropriate, whether a Democratic or Republican president — that you look and you consider all kinds of factors. Because for instance, for me, I’m going to look at things very much from a public health lens as I assess things. The secretary of the treasury, the secretary of commerce, may bring a completely and important different perspective to the table that I don’t bring. And it’s completely legitimate that that gets factored on top of whatever I or other agencies bring in as fact. So I think it takes some nuance and that we often, frankly, in public discourse don’t catch nuance. Interesting. We don’t do nuance well.

Rovner: We don’t do nuance.

Sebelius: Well, I would agree with the description of the facts versus the policy. And policy does often have political flavors. I was fortunate to work for a president who said, meant, and said it over and over and over again that he would follow the science. And he did. And I had interesting political debates with people around him, on his team, about what should be done, “rewrite the guidance on this,” “do that,” “this is going to upset this group of people.” And he was very resilient and very consistent, saying, “What does the science say? What do the scientists say? That’s where we’re going,” on those areas which were really defined as giving advice to the American public on health issues, doing a variety of things. I mean, he was totally focused on listening to the science. The politics came in, as I think Secretary Azar said well, in some decisions that were brought to him, which really involved often battles between Cabinet agencies, and both were very legitimate. Again, we had pretty ferocious battles on food labeling and calorie counts and how much sodium would, should manufacturers be allowed to put in all of our manufactured goods. I’m sure many of you are aware, but, you know, American sodium levels are just skyrocketing. And it doesn’t matter what kind of salt you use at your table; it’s already baked into every loaf of bread, every pat of butter, every can of soup. And a lot of European countries have done a great job just lowering that. So the goods that are manufactured that you pick up in an EU country — Kellogg’s Corn Flakes has a third of the sodium that the Kellogg’s Corn Flakes that you get in Aspen does, just because that was a choice that those governments made. That’s a way to keep people healthy. But we would come at that through a public health perspective and argue strenuously for various kinds of limits. The Department of Agriculture, promoting farm products, supporting goods it exports, you know, not wanting to rile people up, would come in very strongly opposing a lot of those public health measures. And the president would make that call. Now, is that politics? Is it policy? Is it, you know, listening to a different lens? But he made the call and some of those battles we would win and some we would lose. But again, it’s a very legitimate role for the president to make. He’s getting input from leaders who see things through a different lens, and then he’s the ultimate decider and he would make the decision.

Becerra: So um, I’ve done politics and policy much longer than I’ve done the secretary role. And I will tell you that there is a big difference. We do do some policy, but for the most part we execute. The policy has been given to us by Congress, and to some degree the White House will help shape that policy. We have some role in policymaking because we put out guidances, and the guidance may look like it’s political or policy-driven, or we decide how much sodium might be allowed in a particular product and so forth. But for the most part, we’re executing on a policy that’s been dictated to the agencies by Congress. And I love that, because when I became AG in California, it really hit you how important it is to be able to marshal facts. And in HHS, it’s not just facts; it’s scientific facts. It is such a treat, as an attorney, to get to rely on scientific facts to push things like masking policy in the face of some hostility that went throughout the country to the point that our CDC director had to have security detail because she was getting death threats for having policies that would urge society to have masking policies for adults, for children. We do rely principally on science and the facts at HHS. Maybe folks don’t believe it, but I can put those on the table for you to take a look at. And perhaps the best example I can give you, and I don’t know if I’ll have time to connect the dots for you, because it’s a little esoteric: Title 42, which many of you got to hear about all the time in the news. Title 42 was a policy that was put in place under the Trump administration when we were in the height of the covid pandemic. We didn’t know what was causing covid, so we were trying to make sure that we protected ourselves and our borders. And so therefore, for public health reasons, we sort of closed our borders to the degree that we could, except for those who proved that they had gone through steps and so forth to be able to come in. Title 42 was used under the Trump administration, under the Biden administration to stop people from coming through our southern border. And there reached a point where, as things got better, our team said Title 42, which is health-based — it’s to stop the spread of contagion — was no longer the appropriate tool to use at the border, because we were letting people in the northern border, by plane, and all the rest. You just had to go through protocols. And so they were saying for health care reasons you go through protocols. But Title 42 is probably not the blanket way to deal with this issue, because it’s no longer simply a health care issue. We pushed really hard on that within the administration to the point where, finally, the administration said, “We’re pulling down Title 42.” Then the politics and the policy came in, from Congress saying, “Oh, how dare you take down Title 42? How dare you do that and let the flood of people come into this country?” Well, look, if you want to deal with people coming into the country, whatever way, then deal with our country’s borders through our immigration laws, not through our health care laws. Don’t try to make health care experts be the reason why you’re stopping someone from coming into this country. Stop hiding behind their skirt. And that’s where we went. And the administration took that policy as well. They took the policy. We then got sued and a court said, “No, you will not take down Title 42.” Ultimately, we think we were going to prevail in court, but ultimately, because we pulled down the public health emergency, things got better under covid, we no longer needed Title 42. But just again, to be clear, the women and men at HHS, we execute; we use the facts and the science. We don’t do politics.

Rovner: So we’ve been very serious.

Becerra: Not everybody believed me on that one.

Rovner: I know, I know. We’ve been very serious here for 50-some minutes. I want to go down the line. What’s the most fun thing you got to do as secretary or the coolest thing that you got to do as secretary?

Azar: Probably for me, it was the trip to the Congo, you know, being in the DRC, going to Uganda, going to Rwanda, flying on MONUSCO [United Nations Organization Stabilization Mission in the Democratic Republic of the Congo] U.N. peacekeeping forces; there was a Russian gunboat taking Tedros and Fauci and Redfield and me there into this war zone. I mean, it’s a once-in-a-lifetime — it’s sort of crazy — but once-in-a-lifetime thing that had impact.

Rovner: I don’t know that most people would call that fun.

Azar: I mean, it’ll be one of those great memories for life. Yeah. Yeah.

Sebelius: There were certainly some great trips and memorable experiences around health results in various parts of the world. Some martinis on the presidential balcony and looking at the Washington Monument — that’s pretty cool at night. But my, I think, personally kind of fun thing. I raised my children on “Sesame Street,” and they loved “Sesame Street” and the characters, and that was sort of part of the family routine. And so I got to go to “Sesame Street” and make a public service commercial with Elmo. I got to see Oscar’s garbage can. I met Snuffleupagus. But the Elmo commercial was to teach kids how to sneeze because, again, we were trying to spread good health habits. And so the script said — I mean, Elmo is right here and I’m here — and the script said, “OK, Elmo, we need to practice how to sneeze. So put your arm up and bend your elbow and sneeze into your arm.” And the puppet answered, “Elmo has no elbow.” That wasn’t part of the script. It was like, really? “And if Elmo does that, it will go like this: Achoo!” OK, so we flipped the script and Elmo taught me to sneeze. But that was a very memorable day to finally be on “Sesame Street.” It was very cool.

Rovner: OK, beat that.

Becerra: My team has not yet scheduled me to go on “Sesame Street,” so it’s going to be tough.

Sebelius: But just remember, Elmo has no elbows, if you get to go.

Becerra: I think probably what I will think of most is that I had had a chance to be in the White House and meet with the president in the Oval Office and the rest as a of member of Congress and so forth. When I went in, and it was because things were kind of dire with the kids at the border, and I knew I was going to get a whiplash after the meeting — it wasn’t fun at the time, but walking out, you know, it’s the kind of thing you think of, you know, “West Wing” kind of thing. You actually got the — president sat at the table, I was the guy that sat across from him. Everybody else was to the sides. You know, for a kid who was the first in his family to go to college, Dad didn’t get past the sixth grade, Mom didn’t come here till she was 18, when she came from Guadalajara, Jalisco, Mexico. It was pretty cool.

Rovner: So I could go on all night, but I think we’re not supposed to. So I want to ask you all one last question, which is, regardless of party affiliation, what is one piece of advice you would give to a successor as HHS secretary? Why don’t you start?

Becerra: Gosh, don’t start with me because I’m still there, so —

Rovner: All right.

Azar: I’m going to plagiarize and I’m going to give you the advice I wish Donna Shalala had given me before I took the job. But I would give it to any successor, which: She told me, “Do not take the job unless you have authority over personnel. Refuse to take the job unless you have control over who’s working, because people is policy and you have to be able to control the ethics, the tone, the culture of the organization. And people are that, and you need to have that authority.” And ever really since the Reagan administration, the Office of Presidential Personnel has just been this vortex of power that controls all political appointees at Cabinet departments. And I think if the president really wants you, you need to strike a deal that says, at a minimum, I’ve got veto or firing rights.

Sebelius: I think my advice would be the advice you give to a lot of employees who work in the private sector or public sector is, Make sure you’re aligned with the mission of the CEO, so in this case the president. I mean, don’t take the job because it’s cool and you’ll be a Cabinet member, because then it will be miserable. And with HHS, recognize the incredible assets across this agency. It is the most dazzling workforce I’ve ever had an opportunity to be with — the brightest people of all shapes, sizes, backgrounds, who taught me so much every day — and just cherish and relish your opportunity to be there, even for a short period of time. It’s miraculous.

Becerra: So I’d agree with Alex: Assemble your team. And it really is, because Kathleen mentioned it, it’s a very small group that actually you get to bring in, or even the administration gets to bring in, because most of the folks are civil service, so it’s only a fraction of the people that are going to be new. But your inner circle, the team that’s going to sort of be there and guide you and tell you what’s truth, they’ve got to be your team, because someone’s got to have your back. But I’d also say, know your reach, because as Kathleen said, this is not the Azar administration or the Sebelius administration, the Becerra administration. It’s the administration of the guy who got elected. And at the end of the day, the president gets to make the call. So as much as you may want to do something, you’ve got to know your reach.

Rovner: Well, I want to thank you all. I hope the audience had half as much fun as I did doing this. Let’s do it again next year. Thank you, all. OK, that’s our show for this week. As always, if you enjoy the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left a review; that helps other people find us, too. Special thanks, as always, and particularly this week, to our producer, Francis Ying. Also as always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org. Or you can tweet me. I’m @jrovner. We’ll be back in your feed from Washington next week. Until then, be healthy.

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