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Julie Rovner
KFF Health News

@jrovner

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Julie Rovner is chief Washington correspondent and host of KFF Health News’ weekly health policy news podcast, “What the Health?” A noted expert on health policy issues, Julie is the author of the critically praised reference book “Health Care Politics and Policy A to Z,” now in its third edition.

It’s an understatement to say a lot has happened in the year since the Supreme Court overturned the nationwide right to abortion in its decision in Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization.

But while many of the subsequent legislative and court actions to either ban or preserve access to abortion were predicted, the decision has had other, sometimes far-reaching consequences.

In this special episode of KFF Health News’ “What the Health?” four reporters who have closely covered the issue — host and KFF Health News chief Washington correspondent Julie Rovner, Alice Miranda Ollstein of Politico, Shefali Luthra of The 19th, and Sandhya Raman of CQ Roll Call — try to condense all that has happened since the nationwide right to abortion was revoked.

Panelists

Shefali Luthra
The 19th

@shefalil

Read Shefali's stories

Alice Miranda Ollstein
Politico

@AliceOllstein

Read Alice's stories

Sandhya Raman
CQ Roll Call

@SandhyaWrites

Read Sandhya's stories

Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:

• In the Dobbs ruling last year, some justices said the decision would settle the issue of abortion in the courts. That has turned out not to be the case; jurisprudence about abortion access continues, largely in state courts.
• President Joe Biden has issued executive orders to preserve access to reproductive health care, including recently by directing federal agencies to find ways to increase access to contraception. But not all of the administration’s calls have translated into federal action, and some progressive groups are disappointed the Biden administration has not gone further in protecting abortion care.
• Perhaps the most significant action in Congress has been Sen. Tommy Tuberville (R-Ala.) blocking Pentagon nominations over a Defense Department policy supporting the ability of troops and their dependents to travel for abortion care. So far he has held up more than 250 nominations amid accusations that he is undermining national security.
• After Dobbs, there was anxiety in Democratic-run states that abortion restrictions would seep across state borders and lead to interstate prosecutions targeting abortion care. Those concerns have, so far, not materialized. Meanwhile, some states are attempting more roundabout ways to ban abortion, such as requiring all abortions be performed in hospitals when there are no hospitals in the state that perform the procedure.
• Polls show voters are now more supportive of abortion access than they have been in many years; more opposed to second-trimester bans; and more likely to identify abortion as a key priority when they vote. Health care providers are finding themselves pressed into advocacy or choosing to move to other states, potentially creating long-term care deserts.
• Plus, our panel of reporters reflects on one thing that will stick with them from their experiences covering abortion in the first year after the overturning of Roe v. Wade.

Also this week, Rovner interviews Alina Salganicoff, senior vice president and director for Women’s Health Policy at KFF. For KFF research and resources on reproductive health, click here.

Plus, for “extra credit,” the panelists suggest the favorite abortion-related stories they wrote in the past year they think you should read, too:

Julie Rovner: KFF Health News’ “Three Things About the Abortion Debate That Many People Get Wrong,” by Julie Rovner.

Shefali Luthra: The 19th’s “93 Days: The Summer America Lost Roe v. Wade,” by Shefali Luthra.

Alice Miranda Ollstein: Politico’s “Kansas’ Abortion Vote Kicks Off New Post-Roe Era,” by Alice Miranda Ollstein.

Sandhya Raman: Roll Call’s “Conservatives Use Abortion Strategies in Fight Over Trans Care,” by Sandhya Raman.

click to open the transcript

Transcript: A Year Without Roe

KFF Health News’ ‘What the Health?’

Episode Title: A Year Without Roe

Episode Number: 304

Published: June 29, 2023

[Editor’s note: This transcript, generated using transcription software, has been edited for style and clarity.]

Julie Rovner: Hello and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Julie Rovner, chief Washington correspondent at KFF Health News. We’re back in Washington this week, joined by some of the best and smartest health reporters. We’re taping this week on Thursday, June 29, at 10 a.m. As always, news happens fast and things might have changed by the time you hear this. So here we go. We are joined today via video conference by Alice Miranda Ollstein of Politico.

Alice Miranda Ollstein: Good morning.

Rovner: Shefali Luthra of The 19th.

Luthra: Hello.

Rovner: And Sandhya Raman of CQ Roll Call.

Raman: Good morning.

Rovner: So after last week’s special with the current and two former Health and Human Services secretaries, which I hope you all enjoyed, we have another special episode for you this week, one year after Roe fell. Saturday, June 24, marked a year since the Supreme Court overturned the nationwide right to abortion with its decision in Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization. We’re going to start with an interview with my KFF colleague Alina Salganicoff, all about the work KFF has done on this topic over the last year. Spoiler alert: It’s been a lot. Then we’ll have our regular panel discussion. So, without further ado, here is the interview. I am pleased to welcome to the podcast my colleague Alina Salganicoff, senior vice president and director of Women’s Health Policy here at KFF. Alina, welcome to “What the Health?”

Alina Salganicoff: Thank you. Delighted to be here.

Rovner: So it’s an understatement to say that a lot has happened on the women’s health front in the year since the Supreme Court decided Dobbs. But I think your group has produced an enormous volume of information that a lot of journalists and researchers have already used to help paint a picture of those changes. For those who haven’t taken a stroll through the resources available at kff.org/womens-health-policy, give us an idea of what can be found there.

Salganicoff: Well, we have been collecting a tremendous amount of information. Most recently we released a survey of OB-GYNs on their experiences pre- and post-Dobbs and really found some very, I think, alarming findings in terms of the impact of Dobbs on clinical care. We’re also tracking abortion coverage, as well as tracking the availability of abortion at the state level, and we do that routinely. We have a litigation tracker that tracks litigation at the federal and the state level, and that’s just been a very active part of our portfolio and analysis as well. And that’s just an example of a few things that we have going on. But we also have an abortion dashboard, where we provide up-to-date information and analysis and data, not only for work that KFF has been doing, but also synthesis and analysis of other work that’s going on in the field.

Rovner: This is information that, I will confess, a lot of reporters have been using over the course of the year. So thank you for that. How would you describe the state of abortion rights in the U.S. a year post the overturn of Roe?

Salganicoff: Well, that’s a huge question. The answer, of course, truly depends on where you live. In states where abortion is banned, access has been all but eliminated, except for in the rarest circumstances. And honestly, in most cases, even women who qualify for those exceptions have nowhere to go or aren’t being served. In many other states, there are restrictions, particularly those with gestational bans that restrict where people seeking abortion can go. And even in states that uphold abortion rights, people may still need to travel far for abortions, even if … and maybe not even have access to telehealth abortions where they live.

Rovner: So I know this is an even harder question. Can you take 30 seconds to tell us what you think the biggest difference has been compared to a year ago, or I guess it’s now a year and a week ago?

Salganicoff: Well, that is a big ask, Julie. But I will say, for those who live in states where abortion is banned or greatly restricted, this is where you really see the biggest change. And this has, as we anticipated, disproportionately affected pregnant people of color, those who are young and low-income. But also, abortion bans have made it more dangerous for pregnant women and others to have a baby or to get needed medical care. Those seeking abortions have been the hardest hit, but they’re not the only group. And I think also that there’s growing awareness and acceptance that abortion cannot be relegated to the shadows of health care or banned without having broad repercussions on other aspects of health care. Maternity care, emergency care, treatment for cancer and autoimmune disease have all been impacted as well.

Rovner: Yeah, I think that’s been a big revelation for a lot of people, that lots of pregnant women who worked hard to get pregnant and are trying to have babies but have problems in their pregnancy are caught in some of these restrictions, even if unintentionally.

Salganicoff: Absolutely. And I think that the issue of the large disparities we have in this nation on maternal mortality really has brought this issue much more into the limelight, and really seeing how abortion is going to be connected to maternal mortality in this country.

Rovner: So, like me, you’ve been doing this work for a long time now. What surprised you most about the fallout from a year without Roe?

Salganicoff: Right. Well, when Roe fell, I think many of us anticipated in a short time half the states would ban abortion. And while that has happened in 14 states, legal challenges, along with ballot initiatives and elections, have made it clear that there is a will to maintain abortion access in many places where we didn’t think that was possible. Kansas, Kentucky, Michigan, they’re all great examples of that, but they’re not the only states. The other, I think, has been the issue of the FDA and mifepristone, where the Supreme Court has temporarily blocked the lower-court ruling that would have essentially overturned the FDA’s scientific assessment of the safety and effectiveness of the drug, as well as the guardrails that are necessary for dispensing. But that case is not resolved. And then, finally, we have the issue of the Comstock Act, which is also related to that, which is an anti-vice law from 1873 that holds the potential, if enforced, to block the distribution of not only mifepristone but potentially anything that’s used with the intent to perform an abortion. That doesn’t mean just mailing the pill from the clinician to the patient, but also distributing the medication. And it’s going to affect states across the country, not just those where abortion is banned.

Rovner: So lots more to watch. One of your reports that surprised me was how many abortion restrictions there are in states even where abortion isn’t banned, and what we think of as pretty blue, like Massachusetts and Maryland. What kind of restrictions still exist in places that are otherwise considered abortion-destination states?

Salganicoff: Yes, that’s some work that we’ve recently done some analysis on. Yeah. Even if abortion is not legally banned, states can establish regulations and other requirements that effectively restrict access. In states like Maryland and Massachusetts, those are parental consent, or notification, laws. But there are other requirements such as waiting periods, ultrasound requirements, as well as laws that only permit those who have medical degrees to perform or dispense medication abortion pills, even though we know that advanced-practice clinicians, like physician assistants or nurse-midwives, can safely perform these procedures. That makes it harder for people, even in those states, as well as those who travel to get access to abortion.

Rovner: So, presumably, abortion rights advocates have work to do in many states, not just ones with bans.

Salganicoff: That’s right.

Rovner: I think another thing that came as a surprise to me, and we’ve already mentioned this briefly, is how health care for women that is not abortion has been affected. What are doctors telling you?

Salganicoff: Yeah. We recently did a survey of OB-GYNs, and I’ve also been out in the field in several conferences and meetings. And, you know, there’s been a lot of attention recently to the issue of miscarriage management, but also dealing with pregnancy in general and possibly also in the context of cancer care, care for chronic diseases, and emergency care. For example, there have been concerns about access to drugs like methotrexate, which is an abortifacient. It’s used to treat ectopic pregnancies, but it’s also used to treat cancer and autoimmune disease. And we’ve been seeing and hearing at least anecdotal reports about difficulties in accessing that drug. Our OB-GYN survey finds that clinicians are really worried about maternal mortality, their ability to provide care that meets the standards of care — medical care and the norms — and also to provide miscarriage care. That should worry not only those who can get pregnant, but many others as well.

Rovner: So what are you working on now that we should keep an eye out for?

Salganicoff: Well, of course, we’re laser-focused on tracking and analyzing the broader implications of the Dobbs ruling on abortion access. But we’re also focused on contraceptive access as well. And I think that hasn’t gotten nearly as much attention. There’s the issue of how Title X, which is the federal family planning program, is going to proceed in light of a federal decision to withhold the Title X grants for Oklahoma and Tennessee, states that are refusing to follow the requirement that Title X patients be given nondirective pregnancy counseling and referral. So this is an area that I think is going to get some attention on the Hill and in the courts, and I think other states are watching that. The other issue … are developments around emergency contraception and the real confusion that our polling has really documented about whether it’s legal and available. And we actually saw in our OB-GYN survey very low rates of physicians providing emergency contraception to their patients. And then finally, where all eyes are, of course, on the FDA for their decision about the over-the-counter status of an oral contraceptive pill. And we’re going to be looking at how that’s all going to roll out in the pharmacies, as well as whether there’s going to be an opportunity to provide insurance coverage for that newly available method.

Rovner: Lots more to come. I guess we’ll have to do this again next year. Alina Salganicoff, thank you so much for joining us.

Salganicoff: Thank you for inviting me. It’s been a pleasure.

Rovner: OK. We are back and I’m so pleased to have three of my favorite reproductive health specialists at the table today, who have spent a lot of the last year reporting from around the country and, in some cases, around the world. Alice, Shefali, Sandhya: Thank you all for being here. So I want to start with the people who are most affected by the Supreme Court’s action last year. What has happened to women seeking abortions since last year and women seeking other types of health care, too, for that matter?

Luthra: I think the data is pretty compelling, right? We can look at the WeCount numbers that just came out right before the anniversary. The number of recorded legal abortions has fallen quite precipitously. We have seen thousands fewer people get abortions. We’ve also seen dramatic increases in people traveling for care, going to Florida, to Illinois, to North Carolina, among many others. And what those numbers don’t always tell us is how difficult that journey is, how expensive it is. I think a lot about this study from when SB 8, the Texas six-week abortion ban, took effect, and they found there that some of the people who were traveling out of state, it took them so much money they couldn’t afford food for a week and then they ate whatever they could; they couldn’t afford dog food because it was just that difficult of a trip. And what we’re seeing is just people are, in some cases, accessing health care and other cases they are not. And it is becoming a lot harder and in some cases life-threatening. We’re all hearing the stories about people experiencing pregnancy complications and not being able to get timely care flying across several states while afraid they could go into premature labor on the plane.

Ollstein: Everything Shefali said is true. I also think that we need to put our critical hats on when we look at some of this early, preliminary data that’s coming out. It just takes time to get very solid, reliable data. And while the WeCount report is helpful, it has a lot of holes in it, and it makes estimates, and it doesn’t include people who are obtaining mifepristone and self-managing their abortions outside the medical system. You know, it doesn’t include data from certain providers and certain states. And so I think it will just take time to get a really accurate picture of what’s going on. We are sort of cobbling it together. You know, we have providers in blue states reporting how much increase they’re seeing in people coming in. We get some data from groups like Aid Access that mail the pills about the demand they are seeing. But there are a lot of people who aren’t going to show up in any of those counts. And we just sort of don’t know what’s happening to that, other than anecdotally, based on our reporting on the ground. And so I think, yes, there are a lot of people obtaining pills, there are a lot of people traveling, and there are a lot of people for whom neither of those are possible options and that they are going forward with pregnancies that they otherwise would have terminated.

Rovner: I think one of my biggest takeaways from the last year is the broader understanding of how common pregnancy complications are. I think a lot of people did not expect to see so many women with wanted pregnancies have difficulty getting care that they needed. I think people didn’t realize how common pregnancy complications are; they affect about 8% of pregnancies, or that’s 1 in every 12.5. That is a lot of people. And of course, as we all know, maternal mortality and morbidity in this country is embarrassingly high compared to other industrialized countries. I think people, particularly in the anti-abortion movement, used to talk about, you know, these serious pregnancy complications as being extremely rare. They just aren’t. I think we’re finally starting to see people talk about that.

Raman: You know, the past year I’ve seen so much more in the public consciousness about miscarriage management, which is something that we’ve all covered in the past, but it’s not something that I think has been talked about as much, brought up as much, some of the complications there. And especially when the treatment for miscarriages in many cases is very similar to what is done for abortions, and just some of the difficulties that different folks have been experiencing being able to get that care for miscarriages even if they are not seeking an abortion and it’s a wanted pregnancy. I think that has really come to light a lot as well.

Rovner: So the Supreme Court majority, I think in their majority opinion, sort of said they hoped that this would be the last word on abortion for a while. It obviously was not. So let let’s do a quick review of what’s happened in the courts since Dobbs was decided last year. I guess the big one that we’re waiting on is the case of mifepristone, the abortion pill, right?

Ollstein: That’s the main federal one, although there are some other ones. But as we all sort of knew at the time, this is really a state-by-state fight. And the state-level cases are still continuing to play out. You know, just recently there were some major rulings, in Wyoming, in South Carolina. We’re waiting on Iowa. There was this declaration by the justices that overturned Roe v. Wade that this would sort of “settle the issue,” quote-unquote. And it is extremely unsettled.

Rovner: It is. And of course we should mention that a lot of these state cases are  because even though the Supreme Court ruled that the federal Constitution doesn’t have any right to abortion, a lot of states say that their state constitutions do.

Luthra: And the South Carolina one is particularly interesting because, in January, we had the state Supreme Court say that their constitution did not allow for a six-week ban. And just this week, that same Supreme Court, with one change in membership, heard almost the same version, a slightly different six-week ban, and there is a good chance they uphold it, which really speaks to not only the role of the courts in dictating abortion rights on a state-by-state level, but also the role of individual changes in the makeup of those courts and how just this one really small thing, like someone aging out of being on the state Supreme Court, can change access for thousands of people.

Ollstein: And state constitutions, even though they don’t have the word “abortion,” often are way more protective of abortion than people might have predicted. To Shefali’s point, that goes to which judges are interpreting it. But also you have some of these rulings in states we think of as very far to the right that are surprisingly protective of abortion. And I think that fight is continuing to play out. And I’m sure we’re going to get into later the attempts to insert language into the state constitutions that’s explicitly protective of abortion.

Luthra: One element on the federal courts that I think is worth flagging that is relevant to this mifepristone case as well, right — which, to recap, is currently at the 5th Circuit; they are debating whether to take mifepristone off the market, to impose more restrictions on how it’s prescribed. This will probably end up at the Supreme Court again, maybe within the year. But dormant in that case, and something that a lot of scholars have talked about, is this new legal questioning around the Comstock Act, this very old anti-obscenity law used in the past to censor Walt Whitman, to ban “Ulysses,” all sorts of crazy things, and is now being argued as a legal vehicle to end access not only to mifepristone, but to anything that can be mailed for an abortion. And scholars are quite critical of these arguments, but there is a reasonable chance that they come up again and again, and that, given the right case, the right lawyers, the right justices, that a case based on this reading of the Comstock Act could be used to argue for and potentially even implement a national abortion ban through the federal courts without using Congress.

Rovner: Yeah. Mary Ziegler, who’s been on this podcast, who’s one of the top abortion history scholars and a law professor, has been talking about this a lot. You know, everybody is sort of talking about whether or not they can implement or pass a national abortion ban. She says, depending on how they interpret Comstock, there already is, in theory, a national abortion ban. And it wouldn’t just be pills. It would be anything that’s mailed that really has to do with abortion, right?

Ollstein: Yeah. I also just want to go back to the mifepristone case and note that there’s not just one; there’s, like, five — five that I that I know of, maybe even more. The main one that could decide the federal regulation at the FDA level of mifepristone; there are several groups of states saying, Hey, if there’s a federal ban, it shouldn’t apply to us; and then there are two lawsuits that are attempting to challenge state-level bans on the drugs as violating the rights either of doctors and patients or of the pharmaceutical companies. So there are so many different permutations and ways this could go. It’s not just, you know, an up or down vote.

Rovner: Yeah, it’s definitely a full-employment-for-lawyers decision.

Ollstein: And health care reporters.

Rovner: And health care reporters. Well, I want to talk about the administration a little bit. President Biden has been both praised by abortion rights supporters for his administration’s support of abortion rights and chided for his personal reluctance to talk about an issue he is clearly not very comfortable with. What has the administration done in this arena, besides everybody paying attention to what President Biden does or doesn’t say himself?

Raman: I would boil down what I guess the president has done has been the three executive orders that he’s done since the Dobbs decision. So we had two last year that were more focused on abortion and things that he was asking various agencies and departments to do there. And then most recently, last week, we had one that was focused on birth control and contraception, broadening accessibility there. And I think the trick here is that all of these points within the executive order are calling on the agencies and departments to consider doing this, consider doing that. And while some of those things have come to fruition — we’ve had, you know, the VA [Department of Veterans Affairs] and the Department of Defense have changed their policies to kind of make access easier — we’ve also had certain things that have been outlined there not come out. We had in I think the first or second one last year that they had asked CMS [the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services] to find ways to make it so that there could be, you know, an 1115 waiver for Medicaid programs to cover out-of-state patients. And states haven’t really jumped at that or figured out a way for that to work out. So it’s a mixed bag.

Luthra: I think another sort of interesting element — for everything the administration has done, tried to expand access to mifepristone in pharmacies, tried to use EMTALA [the Emergency Medical Treatment and Labor Act], the emergency medication law, to help people get abortions when they are needed for life-threatening situations in hospitals, it feels like there is always a Republican response that is quite effective in, if not neutering, then quite weakening that. And we’ve seen that with the Texas attorney general, potentially someday soon former attorney general, suing to challenge the EMTALA regs that we’ve seen that in the —

Rovner: He’s being impeached, for those of you who have not kept up — that the Texas attorney general. So we’re waiting for the trial of that impeachment.

Luthra: Yeah, we’ve seen like Alice’s really great reporting on the efforts by Republican attorneys general, including in blue states, to limit access to mifepristone in pharmacies, right, sort of going directly against what the administration is trying to do and what it sort of gets to is: For everything that they try, it is hard to see in reality how much of an impact it will make and can make on the ground in expanding access to abortion.

Ollstein: Oh, yes. And we should say that there are, you know, progressive advocacy groups who are disappointed and think the administration has not tried everything it could be trying. And so, you know, the administration has been touting everything it’s doing. And like we have said, some of it has made an impact, particularly defending these policies in court and stopping them from being struck down. But there is a lot of frustration. You know, I’ve heard specific calls for more to be done through Medicaid, more to be done in terms of exploring whether abortion providers could operate on federal land, even in red states. There’s just a lot of areas, and this administration is pretty cautious. And, you know, we can see, because of all the legal challenges, why that is. An adverse legal ruling could be damaging going forward. But, you know, I do want to note that there are pro-abortion rights advocacy groups who are not satisfied with the level of effort from the Biden administration so far.

Rovner: Frustrated, I think, is the accurate word there. Well, let us move to Congress because that’s relevant to what we were just talking about. As we have discussed on this podcast many times, Congress is pretty much gridlocked on all issues involving reproductive health. There are not 60 votes in the Senate for anything on either side, but there’s been some action in Congress the last year, right, Sandhya?

Raman: Yeah, I would say 1) historically, there’s rarely much movement on abortion policy in Congress. It’s just someone bringing something up a lot for messaging. But I think the main thing that that has had an effect is [Republican] Sen. [Tommy] Tuberville from Alabama has been holding up Pentagon nominations over the Department of Defense’s abortion policy, which allows service members who are stationed somewhere where abortion is not legal to be able to take off time and travel somewhere to get that abortion. And this has been holding up over 250 nominations so far. It’s been a big issue given that, I think, there have been folks from either side and former defense officials have said this is a matter of national security, that we’re not able to get this done over one person.

Rovner: This is a big deal that’s been kind of flying under the radar for two or three months now, right?

Ollstein: They’re at a total impasse.

Raman: Yeah, I think that the latest is mainly that, you know, Sen. [Joni] Ernst [R-Iowa] does want to have a vote on this when the NDAA goes to the Senate floor.

Rovner: The defense authorization — the annual defense authorization bill.

Raman: Right.

Rovner: Yes.

Raman: To kind of have a vote on that and try to get that. But they’re at an impasse right now. And it’s kind of unusual. I mean, it’s something that — people have held up nominations, but I think this in particular is a pretty interesting one.

Rovner: Yeah, I know the secretary of defense is very upset about it. It really is a matter of national security and they really haven’t been able to work this out. You know, we know, as we mentioned, Congress can’t sort of do anything. There is not a supermajority to either tighten federal abortion restrictions or loosen them. But one of the things that might have happened and that anti-abortion legislators talked about early in the year were things to better support pregnant women or pregnant women who’ve then had children, and trying to support those children. Even things like Title X, like contraception, Head Start, expanded Medicaid for maternal health for a year. We actually haven’t seen very much of that happening either, have we?

Ollstein: No, we have not. I will say we have in some states; some states that are very conservative have — they say it’s specifically because of the elimination of abortion access — moved to have more funding for moms and babies and even contraception. And so you have seen that. But no, at the federal level, it is running right into this anxiety about debt and spending and not wanting to open the pocketbooks on that front. I also think it’s interesting that House Republicans have not really used their majority to vote on an abortion ban. In a sense, it’s kind of a free vote for them because it won’t become law. And it’s just interesting and speaks to the tricky politics that they haven’t even done a symbolic vote. Meanwhile, you’ve had Senate Democrats do a bunch of symbolic votes to try to make Republicans uncomfortable with the issue. But again, these are all just sort of show votes that are not going to become law.

Rovner: Yeah, somebody should total up the show votes at some point over the last 10 years. I bet it would be a lot.

Raman: I will say that, you know, the one thing that I will acknowledge on a federal level is that, you know, when we had the omnibus last year, they did make the 12-month postpartum Medicaid pilot coverage permanent. And I think that will be a big thing, given that so many states have so quickly adopted the pilot of that. So that would see something that that there can be an effect, but —

Rovner: But it is still optional. States don’t have to — I mean right now —

Raman: It is still optional.

Rovner: Standard Medicaid cuts off new moms after 60 days, is that right?

Raman: Yeah, But I mean, it’s hard. I mean, I think it’s A) kind of what Alice said with the funding and the fact that we’re working with less than we had before. But also, if you look at the language of a lot of the bills that have been introduced that kind of focus on some of these things, you know, whether it’s different things for new moms — a lot of it has language that will polarize the other side. I think that if you see some of the packages and bills that have been put out by Republicans, there’s funding or redirecting resources for crisis pregnancy resource centers, which, you know, Democrats are not in favor of given that they don’t support abortion. And then we also have, I think, a lot of the Democrats’ bills might not specifically carve out certain things. I think that they “butt heads” …[unintelligible] … I think you have to kind of water it down, the language. And we haven’t really seen something that kind of can appeal to everyone kind of come forward, and also that doesn’t cost money. And finding that happy medium is very difficult.

Rovner: And ever was. Well, Congress hasn’t been able to do very much, but state legislatures have been really busy, right? I mean, and it’s more than just, you know, bans, working on different variations of bans. We’ve seen some very, sort of, creative ideas, right?

Luthra: It’s been fascinating to see what’s happening on the state level. One thread I actually thought of during Sandhya’s remarks was the expansion of crisis pregnancy centers, in particular in states with abortion bans, right? Putting more state funding to support them, which, for a reminder, they not only don’t support abortion; many of them don’t actually employ qualified medical personnel and are not bound by HIPAA [Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act]. We have that lawsuit from this week where the woman said she went to a crisis pregnancy center, and they missed her ectopic pregnancy. So, quite dangerous. But beyond that, what’s really interesting is Republicans in state legislatures seem like they are really trying to figure out how to navigate these tricky abortion politics, and they’re not quite sure how to go about doing it, which is why we saw the six-week abortion ban pass in Florida and in South Carolina. And then we saw differences in other states, right? North Carolina did the 12-week ban, which is being litigated right now. And what clinics are actually more concerned about there is a requirement for two in-person visits separated by three days, which they say will just make the procedure unaffordable. We saw Nebraska do a 12-week ban as well, sort of concerned that six weeks appears too extreme now that voters are responding to abortion bans. And the other thing that is just really, really interesting is: We saw at the beginning of the year some pre-filing of bills around the fetal personhood movement, around ways to try and criminalize the morning-after pill or IUDs [intrauterine devices], trying to consider whether you make the person who gets an abortion liable herself. None of those have really taken off yet, and it seems that it’s because that is a bridge that, for many in the movement, is still too far — just this concern that then they would really have to say it is not just that we are trying to quote-unquote “protect the pregnant person,” but we actually think abortion is murder itself. And so I think that will be a really interesting battle within anti-abortion lawmakers, to see how that ends up in the coming years.

Rovner: And that’s a battle that goes back like a decade and a half now. They still aren’t quite there. I think the other thing that we saw a lot of that hasn’t really come to pass are bills to try to ban travel, to try to ban pregnant women from going to other states to obtain abortions, which strikes me as something — strikes many people as something that seems probably not constitutional, but not to say that they won’t try.

Ollstein: Yeah, I think we’ve seen Idaho go the furthest down this road. Missouri was also sort of exploring it, putting a toe in the water, but it never really went anywhere. But I totally agree, Julie. I think there was so much anxiety over this past year about red states trying to reach across their borders in different ways to police abortion, whether it’s suing doctors or trying to ban travel or obtaining people’s medical records or — there was just a lot of anxiety, and you saw that reflected in what blue states passed. Blue states passed a lot of protections to stop those sort of cross-border prosecutions. But we haven’t seen the cross-border prosecutions. That hasn’t really come to fruition yet and may or may not going forward. So it’s interesting because a lot of fears of what would happen when Roe fell have played out exactly as predicted and this is one that kind of hasn’t. Two other really quick state-level things that I wanted to flag that I just think are interesting and are examples of conservatives trying to get very creative and not do just a straightforward ban. I would flag Utah is trying to ban abortion by banning abortion clinics and saying it has to only take place in hospitals. Twist: No hospital in the state will do abortions because they’re religiously affiliated. So that’s sort of a total ban in practicality, if not in name. That’s been enjoined in court. And then in Wyoming, they’ve tried to ban the pills. And pills are what people use because there are no facilities that perform abortions. And so these are ways they’re trying to get creative and do it in different ways. That has been enjoined, too. So we’ll see. But it’s very like, throw everything at the wall and see what sticks.

Rovner: And I would add to that, although I think we haven’t really talked about it on the podcast — is some cities now trying to create bans. So even within blue states there would be bans in red cities, which is another complicated legal thing.

Raman: I looked up some Guttmacher Institute data and we had fewer abortion laws adopted last year compared to the year before. It was 50 last year versus 108 the year before. And, you know, the Dobbs decision dropped after some of these states had gone out of session. But the one thing that I thought — that resonated with me because, you know, A) a lot of these states, maybe they’ve implemented wider bans or they were able to bring back older laws, but it was a drop in the number that we were seeing. And the thing that I have kind of taken away from this year is that the states that we’ve been talking about before — you know, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Florida — that are implementing these, or trying to, much stronger abortion bans are the ones that have been kind of the safe havens, quote-unquote, since the news dropped, where if you live elsewhere in the South, you are trying to go to one of these states to get an abortion. So it’s kind of like a whack-a-mole and that these are the places that have been seeing an influx of patients, especially Florida, that, you know, these are — the cracking-down there to kind of minimize that.

Rovner: So, and to go back to what we said at the beginning, that just makes abortion more expensive for people who have to leave their own state to go somewhere else. Well, we’ve been kind of dancing around this a little bit. But one of the reasons that states have not done some of the things that we thought they might do is that voters have not reacted the way we expected or, I don’t know, the way some people expected. I mean, it’s been surprising. Somebody summarize for us what voters have done on this issue in the last year.

Ollstein: Every time voters have been able to weigh in directly, they have weighed in directly against restrictions and for protections — you know, broadly. Because of that, you have a lot more activists in states trying to set up these votes for later this year, next year, the following years. Every state has different rules around this, and some states don’t allow it at all. But because of just the sweep of the pro-abortion rights side last year in six states —

Rovner: Including some pretty red states like Kentucky and Kansas.

Ollstein: Including some very red states. Yeah, although, you know, it’s a good reminder that, you know, we think in terms of red state, blue state. But, you know, it’s really nuanced. I mean, Kansas has a Democratic governor. Kentucky has a Democratic governor. But, yes, these are states that voted for Trump, have an overwhelmingly Republican state legislature. So it’s how you look at things. But, yes, very conservative, very religious. And both the vote results, but also reporting, polling, focus groups, show that even people who self-identify as very conservative and even personally anti-abortion, a lot of them are not supportive of laws that are this restrictive and think that this should be someone’s personal choice. So I think that’s why these campaigns that really had a conservative-friendly message of getting the government out of your personal business were so successful.

Luthra: And what’s been striking has been seeing the polling just in general around abortion rights. It’s been fairly stagnant up until last year. And basically every big polling organization has seen a shift, and voters are more supportive now of abortion rights than they were before, more opposed in some cases, even to, like, the second-trimester bans, which in the past were a bit more popular, and also in some cases more likely to place this as a high priority for voting. And that will be really interesting to see, especially next year, when we have more abortion rights ballot initiatives, as Alice mentioned, but also more candidates, including the president, running on abortion specifically, and seeing whether this particular issue does influence voters to become, in particular, more Democratic than they otherwise might have been.

Rovner: Yeah, it’s funny; abortion has been a big voting issue for the anti-abortion movement for years, which is how they got to this point basically. It has not been a huge issue for those who support abortion rights because a lot of people thought Roe would never go away, so they didn’t need to vote on it. And I think that’s going to be sort of a big realization. And next year is going to be the first presidential election since Roe went away. Before we leave the states, I would flag, though, the fact that, Alice, you were saying that because of the success of some of these state ballot initiatives, there are other states that are trying to do it, but there are also efforts to stop states that are trying to do it. I’m thinking mostly of Ohio and Missouri, in particular, which has a bizarre fight going on.

Ollstein: Yeah, absolutely. And those are the most immediate ones. But lots of red states took up bills this year to make direct ballot initiatives harder in lots of different ways — either, you know, raising the number of signatures that need to be collected, having weird geographical requirements for where the signatures are collected, and then the main one, which is in play in Ohio, is this question of requiring a supermajority vote to pass instead of just a bare majority. And so Ohio Republican legislators are setting up this August special vote on whether to raise the threshold from 50 to 60% to approve a ballot initiative. And they have been on the record about this specifically aimed at making sure the vote to restore abortion access in the state can’t pass in the fall. And then in Missouri, there’s all sorts of different things in play, some weird stuff, but —

Rovner: I think I can explain Missouri. The state attorney general is trying to make the state auditor change his estimate of how much it would cost if they were to pass this ballot measure expanding abortion access. And I think that the state auditor has said it would cost something like $51,000 or $51 million and that the state attorney general wants to make him increase that by a factor of 10 or a hundred. I mean, there’s just this huge fight. And of course, that would have to go on the ballot measure. So if the anti-abortion attorney general thinks if people go to the polls and see that this is going to cost millions or hundreds of millions or billions of dollars, they’re less likely to vote for it. And so that fight sort of continues. And I believe it has not been resolved yet.

Raman: And they’re both from the same party, which I think just makes it more interesting.

Rovner: Yeah. But you know, this is the first time I can remember a fight, a big important fight, between a state auditor and a state attorney general. I want to talk a little bit about what’s happened to doctors and other health professionals, because they’re kind of caught in the middle here. I mean, they had not been — I’ve written at length about the AMA [American Medical Association]’s sort of checkered history of trying to be on every single side of this issue over the years. But now we’re seeing doctors put in some pretty hairy positions, right?

Luthra: One thing I’ve been really struck by is talking to a lot of — and this is especially doctors, but true probably of all health professionals, is this idea that they didn’t have to take a position on abortion before, so many of them simply didn’t. They were happy to sort of think of it in a silo separate from the rest of their jobs. And that was because, like you said, Julie, they weren’t concerned about losing Roe. And now that we’re in this world, many of them have been really stunned to see what the consequences are, and a lot have described to me this feeling of being sort of called to political activism that they did not expect, did not train for, it’s not the job that they have — but being really pushed to talk about abortion in a way they otherwise wouldn’t have. And what we’ve also seen, of course, is many moving from states that have bans on abortion. Many of those states that have bans on abortion are also passing bans on gender-affirming care for minors, which puts even more doctors, nurses, med students, residents in a bind. We should also note that the health care workforce is a majority woman workforce, and so many of them feel personally affected by these laws as well and are factoring that in their decisions as to whether to practice. And it’s still quite early to say what the implications will be. But there is a lot of real concern in these states that already were these, you know, lower-health-care-access states, especially in rural areas, losing even more health care professionals because of the bans they’ve put in place.

Ollstein: Doctors are becoming more vocal. I think a lot of players in the medical space that haven’t been as vocal about this are weighing in, telling state legislatures, “You’re putting our members in danger.” And so I completely agree. And I think that a lot of this anxiety seems to be from the medical community, like, If we accept this intrusion into our work, what’s next? What else will state legislators who are not doctors try to dictate that we can and can’t do? And so there’s sort of a sense of, If we don’t stand up to this, we’re sort of opening the door to a lot more intrusion into the patient-provider relationship.

Raman: So I have done a lot of looking at the long-term. I’ve been following, since last year, kind of the steps with workforce because I think, for context, we’re expected in a few years to have a shortage of obstetrics providers already, given a higher percentage of women of reproductive age and a lot of folks just leaving that workforce altogether. And I have been kind of curious how this is going to affect that. And I think some of the takeaways, I think, to echo Shefali, is A) it’s early. So it’s hard to go through the data and see what is because of this, what’s because of that. But I think one thing that I’ve noticed is that it hasn’t been just obstetrics or just emergency room or family medicine. I’ve been hearing from folks in all sorts of specialties, even if they aren’t even related to this, because wherever you do your training, it might affect your family or yourself. And that is something that I’ve heard come up — you know, harassment and is there options for themselves? And I think also just unclarity in the laws. I’ve heard multiple either folks training to be physicians or who have just become them say that they didn’t go to school to become a lawyer; they went to school to become a health care provider. And having to have that intermediary and consult the legal team of the hospital in between is just very difficult for them to do their care. But datawise, I think that we had, according to the AMA, a drop in residency apps for obstetrics and gynecology, and it was higher in the more restrictive states, but it also dropped some in the states that are more progressive on abortion, like it dropped in California. So it’s kind of hard to tell so soon what that could mean. But I think if you look at what happened in Texas, which had pretty flat numbers before SB 8, and then they had a huge drop after that law was implemented and who was applying to go there, and they have the third most programs in the country — like, that can provide some clues that we could see kind of further on as we keep looking. But yeah, a lot of it’s not going to be felt for a while.

Rovner: I think two really important points there, though, is one is that it’s not just restricted to the specialties that we would think because, as you point out, health care, particularly graduating medical students, are now majority women and they are mostly of childbearing age, so they are concerned about themselves and their families. And if they’re men, they likely have partners, so they’re still considered worried about themselves and their families. So it can be kind of a big deal. And the other one, of course, is that where medical students train after medical school, where they do their residencies, is very, very indicative of where they’re going to end up practicing. So if you don’t have people training in those states, you’re going to have fewer people practicing in those states. And that we do know from way, way, way back. So I think that’s also going to be an issue going forward. Well, we are running out of time, but I wanted to go around the table once really quickly and say you’ve all been obviously very steeped in this for the last year. I want everybody to tell us sort of the one thing that’s going to stick with you most from reporting over the course of this first year without Roe. Shefali, why don’t you start?

Luthra: I think the thing that will stick with me this year and probably the rest of my life is hearing from the people who have tried to get abortions in states where they cannot, whether that was because of a wanted pregnancy that went wrong, whether that was to save their own lives, whether that was because they already had two kids and didn’t want another or they didn’t want any kids. And just the themes that you keep hearing from them, right? The anger; the betrayal; the feeling like they are less of a person because they can’t get this in their home state; the financial distress that they go through; and, in many cases, the isolation, because they have no one they can talk to about this. It’s really, really striking to hear those stories. And I think they’re some of the most important things that we as reporters can hear about and that our readers can see and internalize and think about when they conceive of what abortion bans mean.

Rovner: Sandhya.

Raman: I think the thing that sticks with me is just really how far the reverberations from this decision have gone. You know, what really comes to mind is last year when I was at an international family planning conference, this woman from a Kenyan nonprofit said to me, “You know, when the U.S. sneezes, the rest of the countries catch a cold.” And I think that was really striking and just seeing how far a U.S. court case can be felt around the world, whether it is countries that have made more progressive abortion laws or more restrictive abortion laws, kind of in the light of something the U.S. does, and just kind of how something that I think is easy to think of as just here, how that can have an effect on other leaders and the people there, or just countries that rely on the U.S. for a variety of things. So that, that really sticks with me.

Rovner: Alice.

Ollstein: Yeah. In traveling, it’s just been really striking to see how abortion bans have had these knock-on effects and limited the availability of other kinds of health care, whether that’s by putting clinics out of business or causing an exodus of doctors and residents and medical students from particular parts of the country that already were experiencing shortages and really just making these medical deserts, and particularly maternal health deserts, that were already there even worse, and just meeting people who were telling me, “I was told it would be, you know, a four-month wait just to get an IUD.” You know, these are people who are trying to prevent an unwanted pregnancy. And there’s just nowhere for them to go in a lot of places in the country, more than we think. And so just looking at people who are not pregnant, are not seeking an abortion, are also being hit by these legal changes.

Rovner: I’ve been struck just by how accurate a lot of the predictions were about what would happen if Roe went down. I mean, there were things that were unexpected. But I think most of the things, particularly the red state, blue state, have and have-not, have been exactly what people predicted would happen. All right. It is time for our extra credit segment. That’s normally when we each recommend a story we read this week that we think you should read too. This week, though, I’ve asked the panelists to choose their favorite story about reproductive health that they have written in this past year. As always, don’t worry if you miss it. We will post the links on the podcast page at kffhealthnews.org and in our show notes on your phone or other mobile device. Sandhya, why don’t you go first this week?

Raman: So the story I picked is called “Conservatives Use Abortion Strategies in Fight Over Trans Care,” and I wrote this for Roll Call in February. What I did was kind of take a look at how we got to the Dobbs decision in the first place, is after the passing of legislation and the litigation and a number of state abortion laws and how those parallels are pretty striking to what’s been happening with trans health right now that has been really ramping up as a political messaging issue. And so, you know, in some cases it’s been very clear, where they’ve been putting language about abortion and gender-affirming care in the same bill, or restrictions there. But I think there are a lot of parallels that I was kind of finding in that, you know, starting with minors and then scaling up in restrictions or looking at science that’s odds with major medical organizations or messaging on safety or looking to penalize doctors or just, like, amplifying very rare cases of regret — that kind of thing. And so looking forward, that’s something that just keeps resonating with me as something to watch, that the abortion blueprint is not unique. It’s going to be there for other things.

Rovner: Alice.

Ollstein: So I chose the piece I did from the ground in Kansas when they voted. They were the first state where voters could weigh in directly on abortion access post-Roe, and it just revealed so many things that continue to be true for the states that are voting on this. It was just such a clear preview of what was to come. It was the flood of out-of-state money and staff on both sides. It was just how heated it got on the ground. It was the attempts by Republican state legislatures to structurally make it harder for folks to vote and more likely for things to go their way. And yet it was a blowout vote for the pro-abortion rights side in the end. And that was just such a preview of what was to come on both sides, and just being there on the ground and being able to see this and to see how people were feeling when the Dobbs decision was so fresh will really stay with me.

Rovner: Shefali.

Luthra: My story published in May at the anniversary of the Dobbs leak. It’s called “93 Days: The Summer America Lost Roe v. Wade.” And for this, it was an oral history that my editor and I had talked about. And we spent a few months working on it, talking to a dozen different folks about what it was like to live through last summer, from the Dobbs leak to the Dobbs decision up to the Kansas election. And there are stories from doctors; from politicians; from activists; people who organized on the Kansas abortion rights initiative; lawmakers who talked about their experience of learning of the decision; Kristan Hawkins, the head of Students for Life. But the people whose stories I think are most worth reading are the, I think it was three women I spoke to, who talked about their experiences navigating abortion, including one woman who was trying to schedule her abortion. She was in line at Disney when the decision came out and she found out her appointment had been canceled. She was never able to get another one and she had a baby soon afterward. There was another who was taking her medication abortion pills at home when the decision was revealed, and she wasn’t sure if she was breaking the law by taking misoprostol in her bathtub. And I think these stories just — they really cemented for me that this is not only the world that we live in, but that these are the real-life implications on the people who are affected. And I just always really love getting a chance to tell those stories.

Rovner: Well, my story is a piece that I wrote last July, so almost a year ago, called “Three Things About the Abortion Debate That Many People Get Wrong.” And one myth, of course, is that abortion bans and restrictions would only affect people seeking abortions, which we now know in sometimes horrifying detail is not true. Women with very wanted pregnancies gone wrong are also caught in the crossfire, and, as we said, forced to travel long distances or wait until they are literally at death’s door to get needed care. But it’s worth reminding people about the other two myths. One is that Congress could have codified abortion rights at any time since Roe but never really tried very hard, and the other one that Congress could have acted in 2022 — the end of last year — when Democrats still had majorities, albeit very tiny ones, in the House and Senate. In fact, Congress never had the votes to enshrine abortion rights for the entire life of Roe. There were several attempts to do that, many of which I personally covered. And to those who think Congress could have done something last year, I ask, “Have you met Democratic Senators Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema?” That wasn’t going to happen either. All right. Well, that is our show for this week. As always, if you enjoy the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left us a review; that helps other people find us, too. Special thanks, as always, to our producer, Francis Ying. Also as always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org. Or you can tweet me. I’m @jrovner.

Rovner: Shefali?

Luthra: I’m @shefalil.

Rovner: Sandhya.

Raman: I’m @SandhyaWrites.

Rovner: Alice.

Ollstein: @AliceOllstein.

Rovner: We are taking next week off for the Fourth of July holiday, so we will be back in your feed with our regular news update on July 13. Until then, be healthy.

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Julie Rovner is chief Washington correspondent and host of KFF Health News’ weekly health policy news podcast, “What the Health?” A noted expert on health policy issues, Julie is the author of the critically praised reference book “Health Care Politics and Policy A to Z,” now in its third edition.

In this special episode of KFF Health News’ “What the Health?” host and chief Washington correspondent Julie Rovner leads a rare conversation with the current and two former secretaries of Health and Human Services. Taped before a live audience at Aspen Ideas: Health, part of the Aspen Ideas Festival, in Aspen, Colorado, Secretary Xavier Becerra and two of his predecessors, Kathleen Sebelius and Alex Azar, talk candidly about what it takes to run a department with more than 80,000 employees and a budget larger than those of many countries.

Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:

• The Department of Health and Human Services is much more than a domestic agency. It also plays a key role in national security, the three HHS secretaries explained, describing the importance of the “soft diplomacy” of building and supporting health systems abroad.
• Each HHS secretary — Sebelius, who served under former President Barack Obama; Azar, who served under former President Donald Trump; and Becerra, the current secretary, under President Joe Biden — offered frank, sobering, and even funny stories about interacting with the White House. “Anything you thought you were going to do during the day often got blown up by the White House,” Sebelius said. Asked what he was unprepared for when he started the job, Azar quipped: “The Trump administration.”
• Identifying their proudest accomplishment as the nation’s top health official, Azar and Becerra both cited their work responding to the covid-19 pandemic, specifically Operation Warp Speed, the interagency effort to develop and disseminate vaccines, and H-CORE, which Becerra described as a quiet successor to Warp Speed. They also each touted their respective administrations’ efforts to regulate tobacco.
• Having weathered recent debates over the separation of public policy and politics at the top health agency, the panel discussed how they’ve approached balancing the two in decision-making. For Becerra, the answer was unequivocal: “We use the facts and the science. We don’t do politics.”

Click to open the transcript

Transcript: Live From Aspen: Three HHS Secretaries on What the Job Is Really Like

KFF Health News’ ‘What the Health?’

Episode Title: Live From Aspen: Three HHS Secretaries on What the Job Is Really Like

Episode Number: 303

Published: June 22, 2023

[Editor’s note: This transcript, generated using transcription software, has been edited for style and clarity.]

Julie Rovner: Hello and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Julie Rovner, coming to you this week from the Aspen Ideas: Health conference in Aspen, Colorado. We have a cool special for you this week. For the first time, the current secretary of Health and Human Services sat down for a joint interview with two of his predecessors. This was taped before a live audience on Wednesday evening, June 21, in Aspen. So, as we like to say, here we go.

Hello. Good evening. Welcome to Aspen Ideas: Health. I’m Julie Rovner. I’m the chief Washington correspondent for KFF Health News and also host of KFF Health News’ health policy podcast, “What the Health?,” which you are now all the audience for, so thank you very much. I’m sure these people with me need no introduction, but I’m going to introduce them anyway because I think that’s required.

Immediately to my left, we are honored to welcome the current U.S. secretary of Health and Human Services, Xavier Becerra. Secretary Becerra is the first Latino to serve in this post. He was previously attorney general of the state of California. And before that, he served in the U.S. House of Representatives for nearly 25 years, where, as a member of the powerful Ways and Means Committee, he helped draft and pass what’s now the Affordable Care Act. Thank you for joining us.

Next to him, we have Kathleen Sebelius, who served as secretary during the Obama administration from 2009 to 2014, where she also helped pass and implement the Affordable Care Act. I first met Secretary Sebelius when she was Kansas’ state insurance commissioner, a post she was elected to twice. She went on to be elected twice as governor of the state, which is no small feat in a very red state for a Democrat. Today, she also consults on health policy and serves on several boards, including — full disclosure — that of my organization, KFF. Thank you so much for being here.

And on the end we have Alex Azar, who served as HHS secretary from 2018 to 2021 and had the decidedly mixed privilege of leading the department through the first two years of the covid pandemic, which I’m sure was not on his to-do list when he took the job. At least Secretary Azar came to the job with plenty of relevant experience. He’d served in the department previously as HHS deputy secretary and as general counsel during the George W. Bush administration and later as a top executive at U.S. drugmaker Eli Lilly. Today, he advises a health investment firm, teaches at the University of Miami Herbert Business School, and sits on several boards, including the Aspen Institute’s. So, thank you.

Former Secretary of Health and Human Services Alex Azar: Thank you.

Rovner: So I know you’re not here to listen to me, so we’re going to jump in with our first question. As I’m sure we will talk about in more detail, HHS is a vast agency that includes, just on the health side, agencies including the Food and Drug Administration, the National Institutes of Health, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, and the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services. The department has more than 80,000 employees around the country and throughout the world and oversees more than one and a half trillion dollars of federal funding each year. I want to ask each of you — I guess we’ll start with you — what is the one thing you wish the public understood about the department that you think they don’t really now?

Secretary of Health and Human Services Xavier Becerra: Given everything you just said, I wish people would understand that the Constitution left health care to the states. And so, as big as we are and as much as we do — Medicare, Medicaid, CHIP [Children’s Health Insurance Program], Obamacare — we still don’t control or drive health care. The only way we get in the game is when we put money into it. And that’s why people do Medicare, because we put money into it. States do Medicaid because we put money into it. And it became very obvious with covid that the federal government doesn’t manage health care. We don’t have a national system of health or public health. We have a nationwide system of public health where 50 different states determine what happens, and so one state may do better than another, and we’re out there trying to make it work evenhandedly for everyone in America. But it’s very tough because we don’t have a national system of public health.

Rovner: Secretary, what’s the thing that you wish people understood about HHS?

Former Secretary of Health and Human Services Kathleen Sebelius: Well, I agree with what Secretary Becerra has said, but it always made me unhappy that people don’t understand fully, I don’t think, the international role that HHS plays, and it is so essential to the safety and security and resilience of the United States. So we have employees across the world. CDC has employees in about 40 other countries, and helping to build health systems in various parts of the world, sharing information about how you stand up a health system, what a great hospital looks like. NIH does experiments and clinical trials all over the globe and is regarded as the gold standard. And we actually, I think, at HHS were able to do what they call soft diplomacy. And a lot of countries aren’t eager to have the State Department involved. They’re certainly not eager to see soldiers. Our trade policies make some people uncomfortable. But they welcome health professionals. They welcome the opportunity to learn from the United States. So it’s really a way often to get into countries and make friendships. And we need to monitor across the globe, as covid showed so well. When an outbreak happens someplace else in the world, we can’t wait for it to arrive on the border of the United States. Safety and security of American citizens really depends on global information exchange, a global surveillance exchange. The CDC has also trained epidemiologists in regions around the world so that they can be faster and share information. And I think too often in Congress, those line items for foreign trips, for offices elsewhere, people say, “Well, we don’t really need that. We should focus all our attention on America.” But I’ve always thought, if folks really understood how integral it is not just to our health security, but really national security, that we have these partnerships — and it’s, as I say, I think the best soft diplomacy and the cheapest soft diplomacy underway is to send health professionals all over the globe and to make those friendships.

Rovner: Do you think people understand that better since covid?

Sebelius: Maybe. You know, but some people reacted, unfortunately, to covid, saying, “Well, we put up bigger walls, and we” — I mean, no disease needs a passport, no wall stops things from coming across our borders. And I’m not sure that still is something that people take to heart.

Rovner: Secretary Azar, you actually have the most — in terms of years — experience at the department. What is it that people don’t know that they should?

Azar: So I probably would have led with what Secretary Becerra said about just how highly decentralized the public health infrastructure and leadership and decision-making is in the United States. I mean, it really — all those calls are made, and it’s not even just the 50 states. It’s actually 62 public health jurisdictions, because we separately fund a whole series of cities. I’ll concur in that. I’d say the other thing that people probably don’t understand, and maybe this is too inside baseball, is the secretary of HHS is, on the one hand, probably the most powerful secretary in the Cabinet and, on the other hand, also quite weak. So literally every authority, almost every authority, in the thousands and thousands of pages of U.S. statute that empower programs at HHS, say, “The secretary shall …” So the FDA, the CDC, CMS, all of these programs really operate purely by delegation of the secretary, because Secretary Becerra allows them to make decisions or to run programs. They are his authorities. And so the media, then, when the secretary acts, will … [unintelligible] … “How dare you,” you know, “how dare you be involved in this issue or that issue?” Well, it is legally and constitutionally Secretary Becerra’s job. And, on the other hand, you are supervising — it’s like a university, because you’re also supervising operating divisions that are global household brands. It is really like being a university president, for all that’s good and evil of that. You have to lead by consensus. You have to lead by bringing people along. You are not a dictator, in spite of what the U.S. statutes say. It’s very, very similar to that — that you, the secretary, is both powerful, but also has to really lead a highly matrixed, consensus-based organization to get things done.

Rovner: You’re actually leading perfectly into my next question, which is, how do you juggle all the moving pieces of this department? Just putting the agency heads in one room could fill a room this size. So tell us what sort of an average day for each of you would look like as secretary, if there’s such a thing as an average day.

Azar: Well, first, not an average administration, so take with a grain of salt my average day. So, interspersed among the two to five phone calls with the president of the United States between 7 a.m. and midnight, you know, other than that, um — I started every day meeting with my — you know, as secretary, you’ve got to have a team around you that’s not just your operating divisions, but I would start every morning — we would have just a huddle with chief of staff, deputy chief of staff, my head of public affairs. Often my general counsel would join that, my legislative leader. Just what’s going to hit us in the face today? Like, what are we trying to do, and what’s going to hit us in the face today? Just a situational awareness, every morning at about 8 a.m., quick huddle on that, and then diving into really the rhythm of the day of — I tried to drive — I use a book that I helped actually do some of the work on called “The 4 Disciplines of Execution,” just a tool of how do you focus and drive change in very complex organizations? So I tried to focus on four key initiatives that I spent as much of my time as secretary on leading and pushing on, and so I tried to make sure as much of my time was doing that. But then it’s reactive. You’re having to go to White House meetings constantly. You have to sign off on every regulation at the department. And so you’re in meetings just getting briefed and deciding approve or disapprove, so that rhythm constantly, and then add travel in, add evening commitments, add speeches. I’d say the biggest challenge you have as a leader in HHS is that first point of, focus, because you could be like a bobber on the water, just going with whatever’s happening, if you don’t have a maniacally focused agenda of, “I’ve got a limited amount of time. I’m going to drive change here. And if I don’t spend time every day pushing the department on this issue, being basically a burr in the saddle to make it happen, it won’t.” And you’ve just got to constantly be on that.

Rovner: Secretary Sebelius, what did your average day look like?

Sebelius: Well, I’m not going to repeat what Alex has just said. A lot of that goes on in the daily routine. First of all, I think all of us would be sent home the night before with a binder of materials — briefings for what you’re going to do the next day. So you may have 10 meetings, but each of those has a 20-page brief behind it. And then what the issues are, what the questions might be. So that’s your homework often that you’re leaving with at 7 or 8 at night. I like to run in the morning, and I would get up, read my schedule, and then go out and run on the [National] Mall because it sort of cleared my head. I’m proud of having — some of the folks may still be here — none of the detail ran before I started running, and my deal with them was, “I’m much older than you are, you know. We’re all going to run.”

Azar: They still —

Sebelius: Oh, here we go.

Azar: They still talk about it.

Sebelius: Well, one of them got to be a great marathon runner, you know. Can’t hurt. One guy started riding a bike, and I was like, “What are you doing?” I mean, if I fall, what are you going to do with the bike? I mean, am I going to carry it, are you going to carry it? I mean, who — anyway, so I started that way. You’d go then into the office. And one of the things that was not mentioned is HHS has an amazing, camera-ready studio, TV studio, that lots of other Cabinet agencies used. It has a setting that looks like “The View.” It has a stool that you can look in cameras, but two or three days a week we would do what they call “Around the Country.” So you would sit in a stool, and I’d be doing updates on the ACA or a pitch to enrollment or something about a disease, and you would literally have a cue card up that would say “Minneapolis, Andrea.” And I would say, “Good morning, Andrea.” And we would do a two-second spot in Minneapolis and they’d have numbers for me and then the camera would switch and it would be Bob in St. Louis. “Hello, Bob. How are you?” So that was a morning start that’s a little bit different. Anything you thought you were going to do during the day often got blown up by the White House: somebody calling, saying, you know, “The president wants this meeting,” “the vice president’s calling this.” So then the day gets kind of rearranged. And I think the description of who the key staff are around, but 12 operating agencies — any one of them could be a much more than full-time job. So just getting to know the NIH or, you know, seeing what CDC in Atlanta does every day, but trying to keep the leadership in touch, in tune, and make sure that — one of the things that, having been a governor and working with Cabinet agencies, that I thought was really important, is everybody has some input on everything. These are the stars, the agency heads. They know much more about health and their agencies than I would ever know. But making sure that I have their input and their lens on every decision that was made. So we had regular meetings where the flatter the organization, the better, as far as I’m concerned. They were all there and they gave input into policy decisions. But it is not a boring job and it’s never done. You just had to say at the end of the day, with this giant book, “OK, that’s enough for today. I’ll start again tomorrow, and there’ll be another giant book and here we go.”

Rovner: And your day, since you’re doing it now?

Becerra: I don’t know if it’s the pleasure or the bane of starting off virtually. Almost everything we did was via Zoom. I didn’t meet many of my team until months into the term because we were in the midst of covid. So we would start the days usually pretty early in the morning with Zooms and it would go one Zoom after the other. Of course, once we started doing more in-person activities, schedulers still thought they could schedule you pretty much one right after the other, and so they pack in as much as they can. I think all of us would say we’re just blessed to have some of the most talented people. I see Commissioner Califf from the FDA over there in the room. I will tell you, it’s just a yes … [applause] … . It’s a blessing to get to serve with these folks. They are the best in their fields. And you’re talking about some pretty critical agencies, FDA, NIH, CDC, CMS. I mean, the breadth, the jurisdiction, of CMS is immense. They do fabulous work. They are so committed. And so it makes it a lot easier. And then, of course, we all — we each have had — I have my group of counselors who are essentially my captains of the different agencies, and they help manage, because without that it would be near-impossible. And these are people who are younger, but my God, they’re the folks that every CEO looks for to sort of help manage an agency, and they’re so committed to the task. And so I feel like a kid in a candy store because I’m doing some of the things that I worked on so long when I was a member of Congress and could never get over the finish line. Now I get to sort of nudge everything over the finish line, and it really is helpful, as Alex said, to remind people that the statute does say, “The secretary shall … ,” not someone else, “the secretary shall … .” And so, at the end of the day, you get to sort of weigh it. And so it’s a pleasure to work with very talented, committed people.

Sebelius: Julie, I want to throw in one more thing, because I think this is back to what people don’t know, but it’s also about our days. There’s an assumption, when administrations change, the whole agency changes, right? Washington all changes. In a department like HHS, 90,000 employees scattered in the country and around the world, there are about 900 total political appointees, and they are split among all the agencies and the secretary’s office there. So you’re really talking about this incredibly talented team of professionals who are running those agencies and have all the health expertise, with the few people across the top that may try to change directions and put — but I think there’s an assumption that sort of the whole group sweeps out and somebody else sweeps in, and that really is not the case.

Rovner: So, as I mentioned, all three of you had relevant government experience before you came to HHS. Secretary Sebelius, you were a governor, so you knew about running a large organization. I want to ask all three of you, did you really understand what you were getting into when you became secretary? And is there some way to grow up to become HHS secretary?

Azar: I mean, yeah, I — yeah, I have no excuse. My first day, right after getting sworn in — the secretary has a private elevator that goes directly up to the sixth floor where the suite is, the deputy secretary’s office to the right, secretary to the left — my first day, I’m up, headed up with my security detail, and I get off and I walk off to the right. “Mr. Secretary, no, no, no. It’s this way.” Literally, it was like — it had been 11 years, but it was like coming home to me. I was literally about to walk into my old office as deputy secretary, and they show me to the secretary’s office. And I think for the first three months, I kept thinking Tommy Thompson or Mike Leavitt was going to walk in and say, “Get the hell out of my office.” And no, so it, and it was the same people, as Secretary Sebelius said. I knew all the top career people. I’d worked with them over the course of — in and out of government — 20 years. So it was very much a “coming home” for me. And it was many of the same issues were still the same issues. Sustainable growth rate — I mean, whatever else, it was all the same things going on again, except the ACA was new. That was a new nice one you gave me to deal with also. So, yeah, thank you.

Sebelius: You’re welcome. We had to have something new.

Rovner: What were you unprepared for when you took on this job?

Azar: Well, for me, the Trump administration.

Rovner: Yeah, that’s fair.

Azar: I, you know, had come out of the Bush administration. You’re at Eli Lilly. I mean, you know, you’re used to certain processes and ways people interact. And, you know, it’s just — it was different.

Sebelius: I had a pretty different experience. The rhythm of being a governor and being a Cabinet secretary is pretty similar. Cabinet agencies, working with the legislative process, the budget. So I kind of had that sense. I had no [Capitol] Hill experience. I had not worked on the Hill or served on the Hill, so that was a whole new entity. You’re not by protocol even allowed in the department until you’re confirmed. So I had never even seen the inside of the office. I mean, Alex talked about being confused about which way to turn. I mean, I had no idea [about] anything on the sixth floor. I hadn’t ever been there. My way of entering the department — I was President [Barack] Obama’s second choice. [Former South Dakota Democratic Senator] Tom Daschle had been nominated to be HHS secretary. And that was fine with me. And I said, “I’m a governor. I’ve got two more years in my term. I’ll join you sometime.” And then when Sen. Daschle withdrew, the president came back to me and said, “OK, how about, would you take this job if you’re able to get it?” And I said, “Yes, that’s an agency that’s interesting and challenging.” So I still was a governor, so I was serving as governor, flying in and out of D.C. to get briefings so I could go through hearings on this department that I didn’t know a lot about and had never really worked with, and then would go back and do my day job in Kansas. And the day that the Senate confirmation hearing began, a call came to our office from the White House. And this staffer said, “This governor? “Yes.” “President Obama has a plane in the air. It’s going to land at Forbes Air Force Base at noon. We want you on the plane.” And I said, you know, “That’s really interesting, but I don’t have a job yet. And I actually have a job here in Kansas. And here’s my plan. You know, my plan is I’m going to wait until I get confirmed and then I’ll resign and then I’ll get on the plane and then I’ll come to D.C.” And they said, “The president has a plane in the air, and it will land. He wants you on the plane.” First boss I’d had in 20 years. And I thought, “Oh, oh, OK. That’s a new thing.” So I literally left. Secretary Azar has heard this story earlier, but I left an index card on my desk in Kansas that said, “In the event I am confirmed, I hereby resign as governor.” And it was notarized and left there because I thought, I’m not giving up this job, not knowing if I will have another job. But halfway across the country I was confirmed and they came back and said — so I land and I said, “Where am I going?” I, literally, where — I mean, I’m all by myself, you know, it’s like, where am I going? “You’re going to the White House. The president’s going to swear you in.” “Great.” Except he couldn’t swear me in. He didn’t have the statutory authority, it turns out, so he could hold the Bible and the Cabinet secretary could swear me in. And then I was taken to the Situation Room, with somebody leading the way because I’d never been to the Situation Room. And the head of the World Health Organization was on the phone, the health minister from Canada, the health minister from Mexico, luckily my friend Janet Napolitano, who was Department of Homeland Security secretary — because we were in the middle of the H1N1 outbreak, swine flu, nobody knew what was going on. It was, you know, an initial pandemic. And everybody met and talked for a couple of hours. And then they all got up and left the room and I thought, woo-hoo, I’m the Cabinet secretary, you know, and they left? And somebody said to me later, well, “Does the White House find you a place to live?” I said, “Absolutely not. Nobody even asked if I had a place to stay.” I mean, it was 11 o’clock at night. They were all like, “Good night,” “goodbye,” “see ya.” So I luckily had friends in D.C. who I called and said, “Are you up? Can I come over? I’d like somebody to say, ‘Yay,’ you know, ‘we’re here.’” So that’s how I began.

Rovner: So you are kind of between these two. You have at least a little more idea of what it entailed. But what were you unprepared for in taking on this job?

Becerra: Probably the magnitude. Having served in Congress, I knew most of the agencies within HHS. I had worked very closely with most of the bigger agencies at HHS. As AG — Alex, I apologize — I sued HHS quite a —

Azar: He sued me a lot.

Becerra: Quite a few times.

Azar: Becerra v. Azar, all over the place.

Becerra: But the magnitude. I thought running the largest department of justice in the land other than the U.S. Department of Justice was a pretty big deal. But then you land and you have this agency that just stretches everywhere. And I agree with everything that Kathleen said earlier about the role that we play internationally. We are some of the best ambassadors for this country in the world because everyone wants you to help them save lives. And so it really helps. So the magnitude — it just struck me. When President Biden came in, we lost the equivalent of about — what, 13 9/11 twin tower deaths one day. Every day we were losing 11 twin tower deaths. And it hits you: You’ve got to come up with the answer yesterday. And so the White House is not a patient place, and they want answers quickly. And so you’re just, you’re on task. And it really is — it’s on you. You really — it smothers you, because you can’t let it go. And whether it was covid at the beginning or monkeypox last year, all of a sudden we see monkeypox, mpox, starting to pop up across the country. And it was, could this become the next covid? And so right away you’ve got to smother it. And the intensity is immediate. Probably the thing that I wasn’t prepared for as well, along with the magnitude, was, as I said, the breadth. Came in doing all these Zooms virtually to try to deal with the pandemic. But probably the thing that I had to really zero in on even more, that the president was expecting us to zero in on more, was migrant kids at the border and how you deal with not having a child sleep on a cement floor with an aluminum blanket and just trying to deal with that. It won’t overwhelm you necessarily, but — and again, thank God you’ve got just people who are so committed to this, because at any hour of the day and night, you’re working on these things — but the immensity of the task, because it’s real. And other departments also have very important responsibilities — clearly, Department of Defense, Department of State. But really it truly is life-and-death at HHS. So the gravity, it hits you, and it’s nonstop.

Rovner: All three of you were secretary at a time when health was actually at the top of the national agenda — which is not true. I’ve been covering HHS since 1986, and there have been plenty of secretaries who sort of were in the back of the administration, if you will, but you all really were front and center in all of these things. I want to go to sort of down the line. What was the hardest decision you had to make as secretary?

Becerra: Um …

Rovner: You’re not finished yet. I should say so far.

Becerra: I mean, there have been a lot of tough decisions, but, you know, when your team essentially prepares them up and you have all this discussion, but by the time it gets to me, it really has been baked really, really well. And now it’s sort of, White House is looking at this, we are seeing some of this, we’ve got to make a call. And again, Dr. Califf could speak to this as well. At the end of the day, the decisions aren’t so much difficult. It’s that they’re just very consequential. Do you prepare for a large surge in omicron and therefore spend a lot of money right now getting ready? Or do you sort of wait and see a little bit longer, preserve some of your money so you can use some of that money to do the longer-term work that needs to be done to prepare for the next generation of the viruses that are coming? Because once you spend the dollar, you don’t have it anymore. So you got to make that call. Those are the things that you’re constantly dealing with. But again, it just really helps to have a great team.

Sebelius: So I would say I was totally fortunate that the pandemic we dealt with was relatively short-lived and luckily far, far milder than what consumed both the secretaries to my left and right, and that was fortunate. A lot of our big decision areas were under the rubric of the Affordable Care Act and both trying to get it passed and threading that needle but then implementation. And I — you know, thinking about that question, Julie, I would say one of the toughest decisions — just because it provided a real clash between me and some of the people in the White House; luckily, at the end of the day, not the president, but — was really about the contraception coverage. Reproductive health had been something I’d worked on as a legislator, as governor. I felt very strongly about it. We’d fought a lot of battles in Kansas around it, and part of the Affordable Care Act was a preventive services benefit around contraceptive care. And that was going to be life-changing for a lot of women. And how broad it should be, how many battles we were willing to take on, how that could be implemented became a clash. And I think there were people in the administration who were hopeful that you could avoid clashes. So just make a compromise, you know, eliminate this group or that group, who may get unhappy about it. And at the end of the day, I was helped not just by people in the department, but mobilized some of my women Cabinet friends and senior White House women friends. And we sort of had a little bit of a facedown. And as I say, the president ended up saying, “OK, we’ll go big. We’ll go as big as we possibly can.” But I look back on that as a — I mean, it was a consequential decision, and it was implementation — not passing the rag in the first place, but implementing it. And it had a big impact. A big impact. It’s not one I regret, but it got a little a little tense inside, but what would be friendly meetings.

Azar: I’d use the divide Secretary Becerra talked about, which is that consequential versus hard decisions, that a lot — I think one could have a Hamlet-like character. I don’t. And so making the call when it comes to you wasn’t a terribly difficult thing, even. These are life-and-death decisions, but still yourself, you know your thought processes, you think it through, it’s been baked very well, you’ve heard all sides. You just have to make that call. So I’d maybe pivot to probably it’s more of a process thing. The hardest aspect for me was just deciding when do you fight and when do you not fight with, say, the White House? What hills do you die on? And where do you say, “Yeah, not what I would do, but I just have to live to fight another day.” Those were probably the toughest ones to really wrestle with.

Rovner: Was there one where you really were ready to die on the hill?

Azar: There were a lot. There were a lot. I mean, I’ll give you one example. I mean, I left a lot of blood on the field of battle just to try to outlaw pharmaceutical rebates, to try to push those through to the point of sale. I probably stayed to the end just to get that dag — because I, the opponents had left the administration and I finally got that daggone rule across the finish line right at the end. And that was something that I felt incredibly strongly that you could never actually change. I’ve lived inside that world. You could never change the dynamic of pharmaceutical drug pricing without passing through rebates to the point of sale. And I had so many opponents to get that done. It was a three-year constant daily battle that felt vindicated then to get it done. But that was a fight.

Rovner: And of course, I can’t help but notice that all of the things that you all are talking about are things that are still being debated today. None of them are completely resolved. Let’s turn this around a little bit. I wanted to ask you what you’re most proud of actually getting accomplished. Was it the rebate rule? That was a big deal.

Azar: For me, it has to be Operation Warp Speed. …[applause] … Yeah. Thank you. That was just — I mean, and I don’t want to take the credit. I mean, it was public-private. Mark Esper, this could not have happened without the partnership of the Defense Department, and it could not have happened without Mark Esper as secretary, because — I guarantee you, I’ve dealt with a lot of SecDefs in my career — and when the secretary of defense says to you, “Alex, you have the complete power and support of the Department of Defense. You just tell me what you need.” I haven’t heard those words before. And he was a partner and his whole team a partner throughout. And when you have the muscle of the U.S. military behind you to get something done, it is miraculous what happens. I mean, we were making hundreds of millions of doses of commercial-scale vaccine in June of 2020, when we were still in phase 2 clinical trials. We were just making it at risk. So we’re pumping this stuff out. And in one of the factories, a pump goes down. The pump is on the other side of the country on a train. The U.S. military shoots out a fighter jet, it gets out there, stops the train, pulls the train over, puts it on a helicopter, gets it on the jet, zips it off to the factory. We have colonels at every single manufacturing facility, and they get this installed. We’re up and running within 24 hours. It would have taken six to nine months under normal process. But the U.S. military got that done. So that for me was like just — the other two quick, one was banning flavored e-cigarettes. We got 25% reduction in youth use of tobacco in 12 months as a result of that. And then one of the great public health victories that this country had and the world had got ignored because it got concluded in June of 2020: We had the 11th Ebola outbreak. It was in the war zone in the eastern Democratic Republic of the Congo. This was the pandemic I was really, really worried about. One-hundred seventy-four warring groups in the war zone in the eastern Congo. Got [WHO Director-General] Tedros [Adhanom Ghebreyesus] and [then-Director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases Anthony] Fauci and [then-CDC Director Robert] Redfield, and we went over and we went on the ground and we got that. And by June of 2020, that one got out, which was a miracle of global public health. I’m with Kathleen on that one; I think global public health is a key instrument of American power projection humanity around the world. Sorry to go so long.

Rovner: It’s OK. Your turn.

Sebelius: I think proudest is the ability to participate in the Affordable Care Act and push that over the finish line. And for me, it was a really personal journey. My father was in Congress and was one of the votes for Medicare and Medicaid to be passed, so that chunk of the puzzle. I was the insurance commissioner in Kansas when the Republican governor asked me to do the implementation of the Children’s Health Insurance Program. So I helped with that piece. I was on President [Bill] Clinton’s patient protection commission and ended up with a lot of that package in the Affordable Care Act. And then finally to work for and support and watch a president who basically said when he announced for president, “This is my priority in my first term: I want to pass a major health care bill.” And a lot of people had made that pledge. But 15 months later, there was a bill on his desk and he signed it, and we got to implement it. So that was thrilling. Yeah. And, I should tell you, then-Congressman Becerra was one of the wingmen in the House who I worked with carefully, who — there was no better vote counter than Nancy Pelosi, but by her side was this guy, part of her delegation, named Xavier Becerra, who was whipping the votes into place. So he played a key role in making sure that crossed the finish line.

Becerra: So I’m still here, so you’re going to have to —

Rovner: You can change your answer later.

Becerra: I need a bit of grace here, because I’m going to start with Warp Speed, because I bet no one here knows there’s no longer a Operation Warp Speed. It’s now called H-CORE. And the reason I’m very proud of that is because you don’t know that it’s now H-CORE. And what makes it such a good thing is that the Department of Defense no longer has any role in the protection of the American people from covid. It’s all done in-house at HHS. Everything used to be done essentially under the auspices of the Department of Defense, because they are just the folks that can get things done in 24 hours. We do that now, and it’s the operations that were begun a while back. Kathleen had them, Alex had them. Our ASPR, that’s our Preparedness and Response team, they’re doing phenomenal work, but you don’t know it, and you don’t know that H-CORE took to flight in the first year of the Biden administration. By December of 2021, Department of Defense had transferred over all those responsibilities to us, and we’ve been doing it since. But if you ask me what am I most proud of, it’s, I mean, there are more Americans today than ever in the history of this country who have the ability to pay for their own health care because they have health insurance, more than 300 million. Part of that is Obamacare; a record number, 16 and a half million Americans, get their insurance through the marketplaces, and we haven’t stopped yet. There are close to 700 million shots of covid vaccine that have gone into the arms of Americans. That’s never been done in the history of this country. Some of you are probably familiar with three digits, 988, at a time when Americans are … [applause] … 9 in 10 Americans would tell you that America is experiencing a mental health crisis, especially with our youth. And Congress got wise and said, instead of having in different parts of the country, based on region, you could call a phone number for a suicide lifeline, if you didn’t know the 10-digit number or what part of the country you were in, you were out of luck — today, all you have to do is dial 988. But as I said before, federal government doesn’t run mental health. It’s all done by the states. But President Biden is very committed to mental health. His budgets have surpassed any type of investments that have been called for by any president in history for mental health. And he was very committed to 988 to make sure it launched right. And so we have, by exponential numbers, put money into 988 to make sure every state was ready to have it launch. And so by July of 2022, we launched 988, and it is working so well that people are actually calling — actually, not just calling. We now have a text feature and a chat feature because surprise, surprise, young people prefer not to call; they actually prefer to text. And we have increased the number of Americans who are reaching out by over 2 million, which is great, but it’s also not great because it shows you how much Americans are hurting. So there’s so many things I can tell you that I feel very good about that we’re doing. We’re not done. We’re moving beyond on tobacco where Alex left. We’re now moving to ban menthol in cigarettes. Menthol cigarettes are the most popular brand of cigarettes in America. They hook you because of the menthol, and we’re moving to extract menthol. We’re moving to ban flavored cigars and cigarillos. And we may be on course to try to see if we can move to extract as much nicotine out of tobacco as possible before it becomes a product on the market for folks to smoke. So we’re doing a whole lot of things there. And obviously on vaping, e-cigarettes as well — and Dr. Califf could mention that. But I’ll say the thing I’m probably most proud of is that, out of all the government agencies in America, federal government agencies, HHS ranks No. 2 as the best place to work. And I will tell you we’re No. 2, because if we had the capacity to tell our workforce, we will fly you to the moon and back the way NASA does, we’d be No. 1. So that’s what I think I’m most proud of, is that people, as hard as we work them, still say, “Come work at HHS.”

Rovner: So all of you have mentioned these things that were really hard to do because of politics. And you’ve all talked about how some of these decisions, when they get to you, have been baked by your staff and, you know, they vetted it with every side. But I think the public feels like politics determine everything. And I think you all would like to think that policy is what helps determine most things. So, what’s the balance? How much does politics determine what gets done, and how much is it just the idea that this would be the right policy for the American public?

Azar: Mike Leavitt, who was the secretary when I was deputy secretary, he had a phrase, and I’ll probably mangle it, but it was essentially, “Facts for science, and politics for policy.” And it’s important to remember this distinction. So, facts are facts. You gather data. We are especially a data-generating agency. But on top of that are policy overlays. And there are choices that are made about how do you use those facts? What do those facts mean? What are the implications? The United States Constitution vests under Article 2 in the president of the United States to make those choices and, as his delegee, the secretary and the other appointed leaders of the department. So there’s often this notion of politicizing science, but it’s, are there facts? Facts are facts. You generate facts. But what are the implications for policymaking? And I don’t think there’s anything illegitimate — I think is completely appropriate, whether a Democratic or Republican president — that you look and you consider all kinds of factors. Because for instance, for me, I’m going to look at things very much from a public health lens as I assess things. The secretary of the treasury, the secretary of commerce, may bring a completely and important different perspective to the table that I don’t bring. And it’s completely legitimate that that gets factored on top of whatever I or other agencies bring in as fact. So I think it takes some nuance and that we often, frankly, in public discourse don’t catch nuance. Interesting. We don’t do nuance well.

Rovner: We don’t do nuance.

Sebelius: Well, I would agree with the description of the facts versus the policy. And policy does often have political flavors. I was fortunate to work for a president who said, meant, and said it over and over and over again that he would follow the science. And he did. And I had interesting political debates with people around him, on his team, about what should be done, “rewrite the guidance on this,” “do that,” “this is going to upset this group of people.” And he was very resilient and very consistent, saying, “What does the science say? What do the scientists say? That’s where we’re going,” on those areas which were really defined as giving advice to the American public on health issues, doing a variety of things. I mean, he was totally focused on listening to the science. The politics came in, as I think Secretary Azar said well, in some decisions that were brought to him, which really involved often battles between Cabinet agencies, and both were very legitimate. Again, we had pretty ferocious battles on food labeling and calorie counts and how much sodium would, should manufacturers be allowed to put in all of our manufactured goods. I’m sure many of you are aware, but, you know, American sodium levels are just skyrocketing. And it doesn’t matter what kind of salt you use at your table; it’s already baked into every loaf of bread, every pat of butter, every can of soup. And a lot of European countries have done a great job just lowering that. So the goods that are manufactured that you pick up in an EU country — Kellogg’s Corn Flakes has a third of the sodium that the Kellogg’s Corn Flakes that you get in Aspen does, just because that was a choice that those governments made. That’s a way to keep people healthy. But we would come at that through a public health perspective and argue strenuously for various kinds of limits. The Department of Agriculture, promoting farm products, supporting goods it exports, you know, not wanting to rile people up, would come in very strongly opposing a lot of those public health measures. And the president would make that call. Now, is that politics? Is it policy? Is it, you know, listening to a different lens? But he made the call and some of those battles we would win and some we would lose. But again, it’s a very legitimate role for the president to make. He’s getting input from leaders who see things through a different lens, and then he’s the ultimate decider and he would make the decision.

Becerra: So um, I’ve done politics and policy much longer than I’ve done the secretary role. And I will tell you that there is a big difference. We do do some policy, but for the most part we execute. The policy has been given to us by Congress, and to some degree the White House will help shape that policy. We have some role in policymaking because we put out guidances, and the guidance may look like it’s political or policy-driven, or we decide how much sodium might be allowed in a particular product and so forth. But for the most part, we’re executing on a policy that’s been dictated to the agencies by Congress. And I love that, because when I became AG in California, it really hit you how important it is to be able to marshal facts. And in HHS, it’s not just facts; it’s scientific facts. It is such a treat, as an attorney, to get to rely on scientific facts to push things like masking policy in the face of some hostility that went throughout the country to the point that our CDC director had to have security detail because she was getting death threats for having policies that would urge society to have masking policies for adults, for children. We do rely principally on science and the facts at HHS. Maybe folks don’t believe it, but I can put those on the table for you to take a look at. And perhaps the best example I can give you, and I don’t know if I’ll have time to connect the dots for you, because it’s a little esoteric: Title 42, which many of you got to hear about all the time in the news. Title 42 was a policy that was put in place under the Trump administration when we were in the height of the covid pandemic. We didn’t know what was causing covid, so we were trying to make sure that we protected ourselves and our borders. And so therefore, for public health reasons, we sort of closed our borders to the degree that we could, except for those who proved that they had gone through steps and so forth to be able to come in. Title 42 was used under the Trump administration, under the Biden administration to stop people from coming through our southern border. And there reached a point where, as things got better, our team said Title 42, which is health-based — it’s to stop the spread of contagion — was no longer the appropriate tool to use at the border, because we were letting people in the northern border, by plane, and all the rest. You just had to go through protocols. And so they were saying for health care reasons you go through protocols. But Title 42 is probably not the blanket way to deal with this issue, because it’s no longer simply a health care issue. We pushed really hard on that within the administration to the point where, finally, the administration said, “We’re pulling down Title 42.” Then the politics and the policy came in, from Congress saying, “Oh, how dare you take down Title 42? How dare you do that and let the flood of people come into this country?” Well, look, if you want to deal with people coming into the country, whatever way, then deal with our country’s borders through our immigration laws, not through our health care laws. Don’t try to make health care experts be the reason why you’re stopping someone from coming into this country. Stop hiding behind their skirt. And that’s where we went. And the administration took that policy as well. They took the policy. We then got sued and a court said, “No, you will not take down Title 42.” Ultimately, we think we were going to prevail in court, but ultimately, because we pulled down the public health emergency, things got better under covid, we no longer needed Title 42. But just again, to be clear, the women and men at HHS, we execute; we use the facts and the science. We don’t do politics.

Rovner: So we’ve been very serious.

Becerra: Not everybody believed me on that one.

Rovner: I know, I know. We’ve been very serious here for 50-some minutes. I want to go down the line. What’s the most fun thing you got to do as secretary or the coolest thing that you got to do as secretary?

Azar: Probably for me, it was the trip to the Congo, you know, being in the DRC, going to Uganda, going to Rwanda, flying on MONUSCO [United Nations Organization Stabilization Mission in the Democratic Republic of the Congo] U.N. peacekeeping forces; there was a Russian gunboat taking Tedros and Fauci and Redfield and me there into this war zone. I mean, it’s a once-in-a-lifetime — it’s sort of crazy — but once-in-a-lifetime thing that had impact.

Rovner: I don’t know that most people would call that fun.

Azar: I mean, it’ll be one of those great memories for life. Yeah. Yeah.

Sebelius: There were certainly some great trips and memorable experiences around health results in various parts of the world. Some martinis on the presidential balcony and looking at the Washington Monument — that’s pretty cool at night. But my, I think, personally kind of fun thing. I raised my children on “Sesame Street,” and they loved “Sesame Street” and the characters, and that was sort of part of the family routine. And so I got to go to “Sesame Street” and make a public service commercial with Elmo. I got to see Oscar’s garbage can. I met Snuffleupagus. But the Elmo commercial was to teach kids how to sneeze because, again, we were trying to spread good health habits. And so the script said — I mean, Elmo is right here and I’m here — and the script said, “OK, Elmo, we need to practice how to sneeze. So put your arm up and bend your elbow and sneeze into your arm.” And the puppet answered, “Elmo has no elbow.” That wasn’t part of the script. It was like, really? “And if Elmo does that, it will go like this: Achoo!” OK, so we flipped the script and Elmo taught me to sneeze. But that was a very memorable day to finally be on “Sesame Street.” It was very cool.

Rovner: OK, beat that.

Becerra: My team has not yet scheduled me to go on “Sesame Street,” so it’s going to be tough.

Sebelius: But just remember, Elmo has no elbows, if you get to go.

Becerra: I think probably what I will think of most is that I had had a chance to be in the White House and meet with the president in the Oval Office and the rest as a of member of Congress and so forth. When I went in, and it was because things were kind of dire with the kids at the border, and I knew I was going to get a whiplash after the meeting — it wasn’t fun at the time, but walking out, you know, it’s the kind of thing you think of, you know, “West Wing” kind of thing. You actually got the — president sat at the table, I was the guy that sat across from him. Everybody else was to the sides. You know, for a kid who was the first in his family to go to college, Dad didn’t get past the sixth grade, Mom didn’t come here till she was 18, when she came from Guadalajara, Jalisco, Mexico. It was pretty cool.

Rovner: So I could go on all night, but I think we’re not supposed to. So I want to ask you all one last question, which is, regardless of party affiliation, what is one piece of advice you would give to a successor as HHS secretary? Why don’t you start?

Becerra: Gosh, don’t start with me because I’m still there, so —

Rovner: All right.

Azar: I’m going to plagiarize and I’m going to give you the advice I wish Donna Shalala had given me before I took the job. But I would give it to any successor, which: She told me, “Do not take the job unless you have authority over personnel. Refuse to take the job unless you have control over who’s working, because people is policy and you have to be able to control the ethics, the tone, the culture of the organization. And people are that, and you need to have that authority.” And ever really since the Reagan administration, the Office of Presidential Personnel has just been this vortex of power that controls all political appointees at Cabinet departments. And I think if the president really wants you, you need to strike a deal that says, at a minimum, I’ve got veto or firing rights.

Sebelius: I think my advice would be the advice you give to a lot of employees who work in the private sector or public sector is, Make sure you’re aligned with the mission of the CEO, so in this case the president. I mean, don’t take the job because it’s cool and you’ll be a Cabinet member, because then it will be miserable. And with HHS, recognize the incredible assets across this agency. It is the most dazzling workforce I’ve ever had an opportunity to be with — the brightest people of all shapes, sizes, backgrounds, who taught me so much every day — and just cherish and relish your opportunity to be there, even for a short period of time. It’s miraculous.

Becerra: So I’d agree with Alex: Assemble your team. And it really is, because Kathleen mentioned it, it’s a very small group that actually you get to bring in, or even the administration gets to bring in, because most of the folks are civil service, so it’s only a fraction of the people that are going to be new. But your inner circle, the team that’s going to sort of be there and guide you and tell you what’s truth, they’ve got to be your team, because someone’s got to have your back. But I’d also say, know your reach, because as Kathleen said, this is not the Azar administration or the Sebelius administration, the Becerra administration. It’s the administration of the guy who got elected. And at the end of the day, the president gets to make the call. So as much as you may want to do something, you’ve got to know your reach.

Rovner: Well, I want to thank you all. I hope the audience had half as much fun as I did doing this. Let’s do it again next year. Thank you, all. OK, that’s our show for this week. As always, if you enjoy the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left a review; that helps other people find us, too. Special thanks, as always, and particularly this week, to our producer, Francis Ying. Also as always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org. Or you can tweet me. I’m @jrovner. We’ll be back in your feed from Washington next week. Until then, be healthy.

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Partnerships Editor and Senior Correspondent, oversees placement of KFF Health News content in publications nationwide and covers health reform and federal health policy. Before joining KFF Health News, Mary Agnes was associate editor of CQ HealthBeat, Capitol Hill Bureau Chief for Congressional Quarterly, and a reporter with Dow Jones Newswires. A frequent radio and television commentator, she has appeared on CNN, C-SPAN, the PBS NewsHour, and on NPR affiliates nationwide. Her stories have appeared in The Washington Post, USA Today, TheAtlantic.com, Time.com, Money.com, and The Daily Beast, among other publications. She worked for newspapers in Connecticut and Pennsylvania, and has a master’s degree in journalism from Columbia University.

The Biden administration this week pleaded with states to slow the post-pandemic removal of beneficiaries from their Medicaid rolls, as government data shows more than a million Americans have lost coverage since pandemic protections ended in April. Meanwhile, the Supreme Court ruled Medicaid beneficiaries may sue over their care.

In an appearance at the U.S. Capitol, the outgoing chief of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Rochelle Walensky, offered no revelations as House Republicans pressed her about the agency’s response to the covid-19 pandemic. And senators are pushing for action on drug pricing, with Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) vowing to hold up nominations to press the Biden administration for drug pricing reform.

This week’s panelists are Mary Agnes Carey of KFF Health News, Rachel Cohrs of Stat, Alice Miranda Ollstein of Politico, and Sandhya Raman of CQ Roll Call.

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Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:

• Asking states to slow the pace of Medicaid disenrollment, Health and Human Services Secretary Xavier Becerra offered options intended to reduce the number of Americans who lose coverage due to bureaucratic hurdles, such as by allowing community organizations to help people get coverage reinstated. But those options are only guidance for Medicaid programs across the country, and nothing says that states — especially conservative ones that have rushed to trim the number of low-income and disabled people relying on the program — will adopt the administration’s suggestions.
• A deal in the Braidwood Management v. Becerra court case will preserve, for now, the mandate requiring insurance coverage of preventive services for all but the litigants. The threat of a court order halting that coverage mandate nationwide has contributed to growing concerns about the overuse of injunctions allowing a single judge to bring down an entire program or law.
• The Supreme Court ruled that a woman is entitled to sue over the nursing home care her husband received that was covered by Medicaid, setting a precedent that allows beneficiaries to pursue legal action over their care.
• This week, House Republicans pressed CDC Director Walensky about the agency’s response to the pandemic, but, producing few new details, the hearing mostly proved an attempt by Republicans to relitigate concerns over issues like gain-of-function research funding. And Ashish Jha, the White House’s covid coordinator, is preparing to step down without a successor, offering more fodder for the argument that the Biden administration is de-emphasizing covid policy.
• Reports of threats against an Alabama clinic that does not provide abortions illuminate the realities of the post-Dobbs era: Even the state attorney general has taken issue with the clinic’s efforts to provide non-abortion maternal health care — and 40% of Alabama counties already have no access to maternal care.
• And on Capitol Hill, Sanders — head of a key Senate health committee — has said he will hold up reviewing nominations in an effort to pressure the Biden administration to produce a comprehensive drug pricing plan. Meanwhile, another key Senate committee releases its proposal to rein in fees charged by pharmacy benefit managers.

Also this week, KFF Health News’ Julie Rovner interviews Dan Mendelson, chief executive of Morgan Health — the successor project to Haven Healthcare, a joint venture by Amazon, Berkshire Hathaway, and JPMorgan Chase that aimed in 2018 to disrupt how Americans get health coverage but quickly disbanded. Rovner and Mendelson discuss the role of employers in insuring American workers.

Plus, for “extra credit,” the panelists suggest health policy stories they read this week that they think you should read, too:

Mary Agnes Carey: The Washington Post’s “I Lost 40 Pounds on Ozempic. But I’m Left With Even More Questions,” by Ruth Marcus.

Alice Miranda Ollstein: Stat’s “AMA Asks Doctors to De-Emphasize Use of BMI in Gauging Health and Obesity,” by Brittany Trang and Elaine Chen.

Rachel Cohrs: Politico’s “Thousands Lose Medicaid in Arkansas: Is This America’s Future?” by Megan Messerly.

Sandhya Raman: The Markup’s “Suicide Hotlines Promise Anonymity. Dozens of Their Websites Send Sensitive Data to Facebook,” by Colin Lecher and Jon Keegan.

Also mentioned in this week’s episode:

• KFF Health News’ “Biden Admin Implores States to Slow Medicaid Cuts After More Than 1M Enrollees Dropped,” by Hannah Recht.
• Politico Magazine’s “This Alabama Health Clinic Is Under Threat. It Doesn’t Provide Abortions,” by Alice Miranda Ollstein.

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Transcript: Slow Your Disenroll

KFF Health News’ ‘What the Health?’

Episode Title: Slow Your Disenroll

Episode Number: 302

Published: June 15, 2023

[Editor’s note: This transcript, generated using transcription software, has been edited for style and clarity.]

Mary Agnes Carey: Hello and welcome back to “What the Health?”. I’m Mary Agnes Carey, partnerships editor at KFF Health News, filling in for Julie Rovner this week. I’m joined by some of the best and smartest health reporters in Washington. We’re taping this week on Thursday, June 15, at 10:30 a.m. As always, news happens fast and things might have changed by the time you hear this. So here we go. We’re joined today by video conference by Alice Miranda Ollstein of Politico.

Alice Miranda Ollstein: Good morning.

Carey: Rachel Cohrs of Stat.

Rachel Cohrs: Hi, everybody.

Carey: And Sandhya Raman of CQ Roll Call.

Sandhya Raman: Good morning.

Carey: Later in the episode, we’ll have Julie’s interview with Dan Mendelson, CEO of Morgan Health. That’s the successor organization to the ambitious but ultimately unsuccessful effort by JPMorgan Chase, Amazon, and Berkshire Hathaway to remake employee health benefits. But first, let’s go to this week’s news. The Biden administration announced that more than a million Americans have lost their Medicaid coverage since early April as part of the ending of the covid public health emergency. Administration officials said that too many people were losing Medicaid due to red tape. About 4 in 5 people dropped so far either didn’t return paperwork to verify their eligibility or they omitted documents, according to federal and state data from 20 states. Department of Health and Human Services Secretary [Xavier] Becerra has sent a letter to state governors with some ideas on how to help stop this trend. What is he asking states to do?

Raman: So he gave states a few options. He said states could let Medicaid managed care organizations do a renewal on the beneficiaries’ behalf or let states kind of delay some of these cuts to allow for more outreach or let the community organizations in the state help individuals reinstate their coverage if they’ve fallen through some of the gaps here. But I think the thing to keep in mind is that all this is a guidance. All the Medicaid programs are different from each other. So while Becerra says that these are options, it doesn’t mean that any number of states will actually take on any of these opportunities to get more folks back into the program if they’re eligible.

Carey: To your point, some of the biggest drops in the enrollment in Medicaid have been in those more conservative states that are at political odds with the Biden administration. For example, in last week’s podcast, there was a lot of discussion about Arkansas and Indiana. For the panel, what are your thoughts on how state governments will respond to this guidance from HHS?

Ollstein: This is why there was so much anxiety last year when this was all being hashed out in the bill in Congress. Advocacy groups were sounding the alarm that there just weren’t enough guardrails to prevent this from happening. There were carrots; there were incentives for states to go slower and be more deliberate and careful in how they kick ineligible or, you know, can’t-determine-eligibility people off the rolls. But there weren’t a lot of sticks. There were carrots and not a lot of sticks. There weren’t a lot of penalties or repercussions for states that wanted to go as fast as possible and kick as many people off as possible, even if that meant folks falling through the cracks, which is what’s now happening.

Carey: So Sandhya sort of referenced this a moment ago. But I know, I mean, Medicaid is a shared federal-state program, but states, are they legally required to follow any of this guidance? I mean, what happens if a state just doesn’t do anything that’s in the letter? Does it matter?

Raman: I think the issue is that it doesn’t. I mean, there are some requirements that are applied to all programs if it’s in the Medicaid statute and sometimes when states do things that violate that and it ends up going to court. But I think anything here is they still have to follow what has been in the law that had said that after the public health emergency ended, that they could start slowly ripping people off the program. And that’s kind of the issue here.

Carey: Well, we’ll keep our eye on that one. And it sounds like another solution to find its way through the courts. Speaking of the courts, let’s move on to another major news development, and this one is regarding the preventive services coverage under the Affordable Care Act. It’s also known as the ACA. Texas conservatives that challenge the law’s preventive care mandate have reached a tentative compromise with the Justice Department that preserves free coverage for a range of medical services. Alice, I know you wrote about this agreement this week. Could you start us off and take us through the highlights?

Ollstein: Sure. So this was teased during oral arguments. The judges at the 5th Circuit [Court of Appeals] said explicitly, “Can’t you guys work something out?” And it turns out they could. So basically what the deal does is the Justice Department is agreeing not to enforce the preventive services mandate against the folks who are suing. So this is a group of conservative employers and some individual workers who say that the requirement to buy insurance that covers things like the HIV prevention drug PrEP violate their rights. And so the Biden administration is agreeing, OK, we won’t force you to buy the insurance that the law says you are required to buy. And in exchange, they agree not to push for the law to be frozen nationwide. So basically, everybody else’s insurance coverage gets to stay the same for now. There was a lot of anxiety about the nationwide injunction on the mandate that the lower judge ordered. So that is going to be on hold for now. The arguments on this case are going to drag on a lot longer, but this means that, for now, nationwide, the roles stay the same.

Carey: So how, if you know, how usual is this, in the middle of litigation, to come up with a deal that protects the people that are suing to stop a law, but it doesn’t affect the rest of the population, at least for now? I mean, is that unusual to kind of cut this kind of deal?

Ollstein: I think there has been a lot of debate recently about nationwide injunctions and the fact that some judges seem to like handing them out like candy. And just because of one person or a few people suing somewhere can bring down an entire law or program for the entire country. And there has been anxiety in the legal world about this getting kind of too common and out of hand. And so I think this is a sign that even very conservative judges like the ones on the 5th Circuit are looking for ways to rein it in and limit impacts.

Carey: Rachel, do you want to jump in? I see you nodding your head.

Cohrs: Yeah, it is just important to think about that trend, you know, as we see so many lawsuits play out. I know we’re seeing lawsuits over the Inflation Reduction Act as well. It’s a tactic that is being used. And I think if there is some more intention by DOJ to try to kind of limit the reach of these injunctions, then I think that is a really interesting trend, looking to other areas as well.

Carey: So that sounds like there’s no threat to the fall ACA enrollment season, that a ruling wouldn’t come before that enrollment season that could threaten preventive services for the entire ACA enrollment population and for those employer-sponsored plans as well.

Ollstein: So the 5th Circuit, after they blessed this deal officially, put out a briefing schedule that runs into November, so even after that, there could be more arguments, there could be an appeal up to the Supreme Court. So, yes, this is definitely running on into next year, if not longer.

Carey: OK. Well, the Supreme Court had a ruling this week that preserves Medicaid recipients’ right to sue , and policy watchers are saying that this is a major, major civil rights victory for Medicaid recipients. Before we were taping, we were chatting about it a little bit. Alice, fill us in here.

Ollstein: I mean, the specifics are that this is about a woman’s right to sue the state over the treatment of her husband in a nursing home. He was given chemical restraints, which is a horrible thing, if you look it up, that worsened his dementia. He was drugged, you know, in order to be easier to control, essentially, which is a very damaging practice. But that was sort of just the narrow issue at play. But this was seen as a major victory for any Medicaid beneficiary’s right to sue over not getting the care that they’re entitled to., and so this could have implications in the future for things like coverage of reproductive health services, including abortion, and other areas as well. So there was a lot of anxiety that this conservative Supreme Court majority would move to limit Medicaid beneficiaries’ rights to bring challenges. And that didn’t happen here.

Carey: It was a7-2 ruling, right?

Ollstein: Yeah. Yeah. It wasn’t as close as people thought.

Carey: There you go. So let’s move our discussion from the courts to Capitol Hill. Outgoing Centers for Disease Control and Prevention director Rochelle Walensky appeared before a House panel this week to talk about her agency’s response to the covid pandemic. Rachel, you covered the hearing. What were your key takeaways?

Cohrs: I mean, I think my key takeaway is that Republicans are re-litigating some of these comments that were made in early 2021 and that there wasn’t a whole lot of new revelation that came out. Walensky was pretty well prepared to stay on topic. She kind of deflected questions about gain-of-function research at NIH [the National Institutes of Health, a separate division within HHS] and lawsuits around kind of how CDC officials interacted with social media networks and regarding vaccine misinformation. So, I mean, lawmakers brought those things up, and she didn’t really engage on that at all. But she really didn’t give a lot of ground. I mean, there were criticisms of comments she had made about vaccines preventing the spread of covid-19. And I think her position was that her comments were backed by science at the time, and that as the virus has mutated, the truth about covid has changed. So I think she was not apologizing. It was not really engaging with them. And I think it was just kind of this anticlimactic kind of end. I mean, there had been so much buildup. Lawmakers had been requesting her testimony for, like, two months, and it was over and I don’t think she suffered any really significant hits there.

Carey: Were there any sort of agreement on lessons learned from how the CDC and, more broadly, the Biden administration handled its response to the pandemic? I mean, are there lessons learned here? Is there any road map to doing things differently or better next time?

Cohrs: Well, one thing she did bring up was, she said that the CDC didn’t really have visibility into how many people who were hospitalized with covid were also vaccinated. And I think that led to kind of an interesting back-and-forth. I think Republicans were obviously implying that vaccines didn’t work as well as they were initially pitched to. But I think she pivoted that to saying that “CDC would love more data on this. We don’t have the authority to collect it. And doctors are putting all this information into electronic health records and it’s not making its way to public health departments.” And so I think that kind of fits into the administration’s asks for the pandemic preparedness legislation that Congress is kind of working through right now. So I think she pivoted that to ask for more authority for her agency, which I don’t know that Republicans will be particularly enthusiastic about. But I think that was an interesting back-and-forth where she did concede that they just didn’t have a whole lot of information in the moment.

Carey: Would state health departments have to direct hospitals to collect that and then share it with the federal government, if she’s saying she doesn’t have the regulatory authority to do it?

Cohrs: I’m not an expert in this area, I’ll say. But my understanding is that the CDC was collecting information and had to, like, have individual agreements with health departments on how that was going to be collected. They couldn’t mandate that. So I think it would just make it a lot faster and I think give CDC a lot more authority to compel states to report some of this information in real time.

Carey: Sure. No, I know, that’s been one of the most interesting things in watching and reporting and reading all the coverage of how so many things changed with the covid pandemic as [we] received new information. I mean, it was a place we hadn’t been before, but we might be back there again, so. There’s another high-profile covid official who’s stepping down. Dr. Ashish Jha is leaving his post. I think today is actually his last day as the White House covid-19 response coordinator. This departure was announced a while ago, and it’s not a surprise, especially with the end of the public health emergency. But what do these departures mean for the administration’s future plans to handle covid? I mean, what message does it send to the public with these two folks leaving at this time?

Ollstein: I think if folks are already primed to think this administration is not making it a priority, this is more fodder for that viewpoint. You know, you could also note that these folks have been serving a long time in a very difficult role and this is, you know, sort of natural turnover. But I think that, with all of the protections lifting right now, and hearing very little about covid at all from the administration — I mean, the president hasn’t talked about it publicly in months; he didn’t say anything on the day the public health emergency ended, which folks were a little upset about. So you could see this as more evidence that it might not be a priority for them going forward. You know, on the other hand, they are setting up this, like, permanent pandemic office in the White House, although it doesn’t have a leader yet. So it’s a little TBD.

Raman: With Jha, you know, we don’t have someone replacing him in the way we do with a lot of other positions. So it’s going to be the first time in 14 months now that he’s not there, but it’s also, there’s not someone else there. And if you’re quietly removing that role, it just is another layer of saying, you know, this is less of a priority compared to some of the other things as it gets phased out.

Cohrs: I was just going to pop in and say that I think there’s a really interesting opening for Mandy Cohen here at CDC. There is this vacuum of leadership here. You know, the White House hasn’t appointed anyone to fill that spot. Secretary Becerra really hasn’t shown any appetite in leading on covid, and Dr. Fauci is gone, Walensky’s gone — just so many of these, like, old-guard kind of the covid response in the Biden administration have turned over. And my colleague Helen Branswell had a great story, I think that was sharp about how, you know, Mandy Cohen really is prepared, unlike a lot of other CDC directors in the past, to navigate these political dynamics. And I think it is a recognition that the CDC is political and public health is now political, and they can’t ignore that any longer. So I will be curious to see if they elevate her to communicate some more of that information in the absence of Dr. Jha.

Carey: Sure. And can you just remind our listeners who Mandy Cohen is and why she’s expected to get this job, or be nominated for this job?

Cohrs: Yes, she’s a longtime federal and state health official. I think she was in North Carolina, and most recently she was at a ACO [accountable care organization] company working with another former Obama administration official. And the White House, I think — there’s been a lot of reporting; I don’t know that they have officially tapped her yet.

Carey: I don’t think that’s happened yet. No, that has not.

Cohrs: Right. But it doesn’t have to go through a confirmation process. So if they do choose to move forward, I think the process would move pretty quickly to have her in place. So that is what our reporting has shown. Many other outlets have reported the same thing. So I think that’s just kind of the expectation for who’s next in line.

Carey: Well, let’s move on to another topic that appears frequently on this podcast, abortion. It continues to be a major news story around the country. And I’d like to start our discussion with a story that Alice did for Politico Magazine. Here’s the headline: “This Alabama Clinic Is Under Threat. It Doesn’t Provide Abortions.” So, Alice, tell us why a clinic that doesn’t provide abortion is being threatened.

Ollstein: Yeah. So when abortion became illegal in Alabama from conception, with no exemptions for rape and incest, abortion clinics either closed their doors, some picked up and moved to other states, but some, like the one I profiled, West Alabama Women’s Center, decided to stay and pivot to nonabortion services. And they have found it’s still a very hostile landscape and they very well might go out of business themselves in the coming months. They’re running into legal threats. The state attorney general has suggested that he views the kind of abortion-adjacent care they provide, you know, such as letting people know what their options are in terms of ordering pills or traveling to another state — that he might consider that aiding and abetting an abortion under the state’s criminal law. And so they are bracing for that at all times. At the same time, they have also really struggled financially. Most of their revenue in the past was from abortions, and they mainly serve a population now that struggles to pay for services and is often uninsured. The state has not expanded Medicaid, and so lots and lots of low-income people are uninsured. And so it’s just showing that what it means to be under threat in the post-Dobbs era is really different than what it meant to be under threat in the pre-Dobbs era and just how sparse the health care landscape is at all. There are just so few providers, hospitals in these areas, lots of places going out of business. And if clinics like this and other red-state clinics can’t survive, there’s going to be a lot of health care consequences.

Carey: I think in your story you said that 40% of the state was considered a maternal health desert.

Ollstein: Yeah. Right. Which means no access in those counties. And even more of the state is considered low-access, and so people are really struggling to find anywhere to go. A lot of rural hospitals have closed entirely. A lot are on the brink of closure. Some have closed their maternal care units. And so there’s just fewer and fewer options, especially fewer and fewer options for people to feel safe going to if they have an abortion either out of state or at home with pills and need follow-up care. Folks are afraid to go to a regular provider or hospital over fear of being reported to law enforcement, which is actually happening in a lot of places.

Carey: We just talked about the South. Let’s move to the Midwest. In Ohio, voters are going to head to the polls in August to weigh in on a proposal that, if passed, would require at least 60% of voters to pass any amendment to the state’s constitution. And that’s up from the current requirement of a simple majority. There would also be new, higher requirements on the number of signatures needed to get a constitutional amendment on the ballot. A Republican lawmaker in favor of the changes said they were aimed at blocking an abortion rights question that abortion rights supporters had hoped to get on the November ballot. So that’s Ohio. So in Indiana, there’s a separate issue. A class-action lawsuit asserts that the state’s abortion ban violates Hoosiers’ religious freedom. That lawsuit, which was filed by the ACLU [American Civil Liberties Union], says that Indiana’s abortion ban violates a religious freedom law that was once championed by former Indiana Gov. Mike Pence, who we know served as vice president to Donald Trump and is now challenging former President Trump and other Republicans for the 2024 GOP presidential nomination. Thoughts from the panel on these developments?

Raman: I think what’s happening in Ohio is pretty interesting because, you know, we’ve had other states before kind of try to change the threshold for passing something by ballot. And a lot of times it’s not said explicitly, but advocates have said that it’s targeting some measure, whether it’s Medicaid expansion or something else. And here we have a representative and the secretary of state kind of being pretty clear that it is about abortion in this case. And I think it being the secretary of state is especially interesting, because the secretary of state is who is certifying ballot measures and who you would look to for being the person in charge of that and making sure, you know, the t’s are crossed, the i’s dotted. So what happens there will be pretty interesting because that’s kind of an unusual play. And already we’re looking at an August ballot versus traditionally the November ballot. And a lot of times when things are pushed for a different date versus, like, traditional election day, it’s kind of, see if we can get a different turnout or kind of discourage people that might vote one way or the other. So it’ll be interesting to see how this kind of plays out in August or if there are changes before then.

Ollstein: And as for Indiana, I mean, this is one of a bunch of cases around the country where religious people are challenging abortion bans as infringing on their beliefs and right to practice. It’s sort of flipping the assumption on its head. You know, you have a lot of religious support of abortion bans. And this is showing that there are folks on the other side as well within the faith community. And it’s especially interesting in Indiana because they’re challenging one law signed by Mike Pence — the state’s pre-Dobbs abortion ban — by using another law signed by Mike Pence, which is the state’s RFRA law [Religious Freedom Restoration Act], the religious freedom law, and saying that, you know, the state law imposes one particular religion’s view of when life begins and when abortion is or is not acceptable. And that’s not shared by all people of faith. And in Judaism, a child is not a child until it takes its first breath, and that conflicts with abortion bans that are much earlier in pregnancy that sort of posit that it is a child and a life before that. So this will be really interesting to watch.

Carey: Sure. We’ll be watching all these cases very closely. But we’re going to turn now to another topic that’s important to millions of Americans, and that’s the cost of prescription drugs. Sen. Bernie Sanders — he’s a Vermont independent who chairs the Senate Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee, also known as the HELP Committee — he’s vowed not to move forward with any Biden administration health nominees, including the president’s pick to head the National Institutes of Health. That’s Dr. Monica Bertagnolli. Sen. Sanders is saying he’s going to keep this hold on until he sees a comprehensive plan from the White House on how to lower drug prices. What is he upset about specifically? And is he going to have other senators — have they joined him? Do you think that will be in the cards, or is this kind of a one-man band here?

Cohrs: My take on this is that he knows he can’t get the votes in Congress, so this is kind of his only option, is to try to pressure the administration to do it. And the only lever he has is nominees, so he’s using that. I don’t know how long he’ll hold out on this. I mean, it is — basically he’s arguing that the public has invested research dollars to help develop kind of the basic science that’s the foundation for a lot of important medications. And right now, the government isn’t really getting enough return on that investment. And there’s no requirement that companies that end up actually manufacturing these drugs and bringing them to market would price them in a fair, reasonable way. And so, I think his staff put out a report as well, with a release to the Post, making that argument, that the NIH could have leverage here if they chose to, and that in the past there have been clauses in contracts that could have given the government some leverage to go after these companies more aggressively but they’re just choosing not to. And so far, the Biden administration has shown no appetite to go after companies’ patents because of pricing issues. It’s never been done before. But I think, you know, Sen. Sanders realizes that he has an opening here, and he’s using the bully pulpit as much as he can. But I think ultimately I don’t see how this is resolved. And I think given that the Biden administration has overseen the passage of the most significant drug pricing reform in 20 years — which doesn’t fix all the problems, will say that. I think Sen. Sanders sent a letter about —

Carey: It’s in the Inflation Reduction Act, right?

Cohrs: Yes. Yes. The Inflation Reduction Act.

Carey: Which he voted for, OK.

Cohrs: Yes, he did vote for that. But I think there are outstanding issues about new medications especially that he’s trying to highlight here and saying, The problem isn’t fixed. We need to do more.

Carey: And so separately, a bipartisan group of Senate Finance Committee members have unveiled a proposal that they said would reform pharmacy benefit managers, or PBMs. That’s another entity we talk a lot about on the podcast. And the belief is that this measure would lower the cost of drugs. Rachel, I know that you have been covering this plan. Can you tell us about it?

Cohrs: I don’t know that this would lower the cost of drugs necessarily, and I think it’s more limited than the lawmakers who are sponsoring it have claimed it is. I think the problem that it’s trying to solve is that the payments between drugmakers and PBMs, and PBMs and the insurance companies or the employees that they’re working for, have traditionally been tied to a drug’s price. And so, just kind of like the — if anyone’s familiar with the medical loss ratio from the Affordable Care Act — it’s a similar idea, that if the price is higher, then there’s a bigger piece of the pie for everyone, percentagewise. So this bill aims to delink some of the fees in contracts with PBMs from the price of drugs. Now, this doesn’t change the rebates that drugmakers and PBMs negotiate on themselves, doesn’t touch that at all. It’s just fees. So I think it’s kind of hard to know how these work. You know, we don’t have them. They’re not public, but I think they’re trying to get at regulating this space a little bit more and trying to align those incentives a little bit better to make sure PBMs aren’t preferring more expensive medications for their own gain.

Carey: And what’s been the response from the PBM industry?

Cohrs: It is pretty fresh, but I think in general they have argued that the reason for high prices is drugmakers, because they set the prices. And I think this has been a food fight that’s been going on for a very long time. But I think lawmakers are kind of coming around to the idea of doing some sort of reform to the PBM industry. We’ll just have to wait and see what that ends up looking like.

Carey: All right. Well, we’ll keep our eyes on that one as well. And that’s this week’s news. Now we’re going to play Julie Rovner’s interview with Dan Mendelson of Morgan Health, and then we’ll be back with our extra credits.

Julie Rovner: I am pleased to welcome to the podcast Dan Mendelson, CEO of Morgan Health, a new business unit of the financial services giant JPMorgan Chase. Morgan Health’s goal is to improve health care for the company’s more than a quarter of a million employees and dependents, as well as everyone else with employer-provided insurance. If that sounds familiar, that’s because Morgan Health is the successor organization to Haven Healthcare. That was the high-profile 2018 project of JPMorgan, Amazon, and Berkshire Hathaway to remake the U.S. health care system from the ground up, led by one of the nation’s leading health care thinkers, surgeon, author, and policy wonk Atul Gawande. Today, Gawande is running global health programs at the U.S. Agency for International Development. Haven is no more. And if you listened to our special 300th episode earlier this month, our experts came down pretty hard on employers’ contributions to fixing what ails the health care system. So I’ve asked Dan here to talk about what is going on. Welcome, Dan.

Dan Mendelson: My pleasure.

Rovner: So, Dan may not have as high a public profile as Atul Gawande, but he has broad and long experience in health policy, from overseeing federal health programs at the Office of Management and Budget during the Bill Clinton administration to founding and growing Avalere Health, a successful health care consulting and advisory group. Dan, why did this job appeal to you and what made you think you could succeed where so many have tried before and failed, including very recently?

Mendelson: Look, this is a collaborative effort, and we’re working closely with a whole range of stakeholders from insurers to providers. I mean, the work that we’re doing in Columbus, for example, is with a really innovative primary care practice called Central Ohio Primary Care that has broad experience in delivering value through accountable care models in Medicare. So, I’d say that our belief that we will succeed really comes from the fact that we’re taking a very collaborative approach with other stakeholders in the health care system.

Rovner: Let’s start at the very beginning. Why are employers interested in the nation’s health care system and how it works? For most of them, it’s not their main line of business.

Mendelson: Well, I’d say that employers feel an obligation to provide insurance for their employees, and it’s an important benefit, and it’s one that employees expect. And it’s also an opportunity for employers to provide for the health and well-being of their employees.

Rovner: So employers really did used to drive a lot of health care innovation, probably coming only after Medicare in terms of shifting actual health care delivery. But they seem to have taken a back seat lately. What changed?

Mendelson: Well, look, you know, you had employers really active in the quality movement, and NCQA came out of employer interest, for example. So there really was kind of a head of steam. But it did wane. And I think that anyone who’s looking at the scene sees that Medicare and Medicaid have made a lot of progress with respect to driving accountable care and quality, whereas, at this point, there’s really … most of what’s happening through employers is fee for service. And it’s really problematic in terms of driving the quality agenda.

Rovner: And NCQA, that’s …?

Mendelson: National Commission for Quality Assurance.

Rovner: Thank you. The National Commission for Quality Assurance. Yeah, which used to be a big deal. And you’re right, I think most of what we’re seeing is now going on in the Medicare and Medicaid space. I feel like, you know, the millions of people who have employer-provided insurance right now have three main problems: the increasing unaffordability of care, with large and growing deductibles and copays; the increasing time and effort it takes to figure out what is and isn’t covered, and fighting for things that aren’t covered to be covered sometimes; and the fragmentation of the delivery system, making what was already hard to navigate very nearly impenetrable for some people, including people who are sick. I assume you’re trying to address all of those.

Mendelson: Yeah, we’re focused on quality and improving the quality of services, for sure. We’re focused on affordability. And then the one that you didn’t mention is health equity, which is one of the most difficult aspects of health care in America today, and certainly our focus as well. I mean, we see inequity in the health care system in the employer space, as well as in Medicare and Medicaid. So that’s also a target for us.

Rovner: What kind of steps are you taking to fix some of these problems? I mean, I know it’s what people get frustrated most with. It’s, like, they have insurance, but they feel like they can’t use it very well.

Mendelson: Yes. So, the way that we’re structured, there are three things that we’re doing to address these issues. And I’d say that we see our efforts as very collaborative. So we don’t believe that we alone can fix these problems, but rather what we’re doing is really driving innovation and trying to get employers, more broadly, focused on innovation in health care. So there are three ways that we’re doing this. First is that we’re investing, from the JPMorgan Chase balance sheet, in innovative health care companies that are proven to drive quality, improve quality, reduce costs, and better health equity. So that’s the first piece. And we can talk a little bit about some of the investments that we’ve made in the first two years of our operation.

Rovner: Give me one example of a company that’s doing that that you’re investing in.

Mendelson: Yes. An example is apree health. apree is a company that offers a[n] accountable care product to employers. And we’re using apree in Columbus, where we have 40,000 employees and dependents, and we’re now offering their services to our employees as an option to drive better health care.

Rovner: What do you see as the biggest challenge in health care going forward, particularly from the employer point of view?

Mendelson: Well, look, we’ve talked about a number of the issues. I’d say that, you know, we’re focused broadly on accountable care — and “accountable care” meaning making sure that there is a focus on quality and cost that is being held by an organization that can really take responsibility for care. So, to me, it’s really about alignment of incentives and making sure that those incentives are aligned not only in the employer sector but also across in the public programs.

Rovner: So you’re involved in private equity and, you know, the track record of private equity in health care, which was supposed to be an effort to get incentives aligned, hasn’t always worked out so well. I mean, in a lot of cases we’ve seen private equity just sucking money out of the health care system rather than putting it back in.

Mendelson: Look, as an investor, what we’re focused on is finding companies that are driving innovation and helping them succeed. And we’re putting our capital behind these companies, but we’re also really spending the time with them to make sure that they can be effective. And so, you know, we’ve done five investments over the course of two years, and they’re not only in accountable care, but also making sure that there’s good primary care in the system, driving better digital care, shifting expensive care from inpatient and outpatient settings into the home. So these are all facets of how employer-sponsored health care needs to be improved, and that’s the focus of our investing.

Rovner: So what does it look like when you get it all fixed?

Mendelson: When we get it all fixed …? I mean, look, I think we’re going to be at this for quite some time. But it’s really important for employers to articulate their needs and to make sure that those who are offering insurance for their employees are actually being attentive to not only cost but also quality and health equity. And I think that the facet that we’re really looking for is to make sure that health care improves and that these improvements are coming along not only in the public programs but also in the employer sector.

Rovner: Dan Mendelson, thank you so much for joining us.

Mendelson: My pleasure.

Carey: All right. We’re back, and it’s time for our extra credit segment. That’s when we each recommend a story that we read this week and we think you should read it, too. As always, don’t worry if you miss it. We’ll post the links on the podcast page at kffhealthnews.org and in the show notes on your phone or other mobile device. So, Alice, why don’t you go first this week?

Ollstein: Sure. I chose a piece in Stat by Brittany Trang and Elaine Chen. It’s called “AMA Asks Doctors to De-Emphasize Use of BMI in Gauging Health and Obesity.” I’ve heard in the medical community there has been a lot of discussion about moving away from using the BMI [body mass index] to evaluate people’s health. It was created to track population-level statistics and was never intended to be used to gauge individual health. It was not invented by someone with a medical background at all. And so people have been saying that, you know, it’s inaccurate and it leads to a lot of stigma. And so it’s interesting to see that sort of bubble up to this very mainstream, leading health care organization saying, “Look, you can’t just rely on the BMI. You also have to look at all these other factors.” Because extremely fit NFL players have really high BMIs, you know. You can’t — someone’s size does not necessarily determine their health. You can have people of all sizes be healthy or unhealthy. So this was encouraging to see.

Carey: Great. And for folks interested in more on that, we have a lot of coverage on that at kffhealthnews.org, so check that out. Rachel, why don’t you go next?

Cohrs: Sure. My piece this week is by one of Alice’s colleagues in Politico, Megan Messerly, and the headline is “Thousands Lose Medicaid in Arkansas: Is This America’s Future?” And she kind of got out beyond the Beltway and just spent some time in Arkansas really talking to everyday people who were having trouble staying on Medicaid. And I think it’s easy to get caught up in just talking about numbers and talking about policies and all of that. But I think she really brought to life the issues and the barriers that some people are facing in Arkansas, which really is the center of these disenrollments that we’re seeing right now. So I think it was really timely, really well done, very much put the human face on both the people who are getting disenrolled, but also kind of some of the on-the-ground efforts to stop that from happening and just kind of the challenges that they are working on with these compressed timelines. I thought it was really well done.

Carey: Yeah, it’s a great story. Sandhya.

Raman: My extra credit this week is called “Suicide Hotlines Promise Anonymity. Dozens of Their Websites Send Sensitive Data to Facebook.” It’s by Colin Lecher and Jon Keegan for The Markup in partnership with Stat. And I thought this was just a really interesting piece that investigated whether crisis center websites that were using Meta Pixel, which is like a piece of code that tracks user behavior for advertising that a lot of sites use — and just, like, the worry here is sharing sensitive information to Facebook, especially when it is personally identifiable. And with the crisis center, it’s much, much more sensitive data than, you know, maybe, like, shopping habits. And so they looked at data from 186 local call center websites. And I will let you read to see how many of them were using this.

Carey: Mine is from Ruth Marcus at The Washington Post. And it’s called “I Lost 40 Pounds on Ozempic. But I’m Left With Even More Questions.” In this article, she talks about her lifelong struggle to lose weight, to keep it off, but how those pounds always find their way back. And Marcus explores the history and the science behind the weight loss drugs. And she also takes on societal debate over obesity itself: Do we think of it as a personal failing, or is it a disease, a chronic condition whose underpinnings are in genetics and brain chemistry? It is a great read. All right. That’s our show for the week. And as always, if you enjoy the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left a review; that helps other people find us too. Special thanks, as always, to the amazing Francis Ying, our producer. You can email us with your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org. Or you can tweet me. I’m @maryagnescarey.

Carey: Alice.

Ollstein: @AliceOllstein.

Carey: Rachel.

Cohrs: @rachelcohrs.

Carey: And Sandhya.

Raman: @SandhyaWrites.

Carey: We’ll be back in your feed next week. Until then, be healthy.

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Julie Rovner
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Julie Rovner is chief Washington correspondent and host of KFF Health News’ weekly health policy news podcast, “What the Health?” A noted expert on health policy issues, Julie is the author of the critically praised reference book “Health Care Politics and Policy A to Z,” now in its third edition.

A final deal cut between President Joe Biden and House Republicans extends the U.S. debt ceiling deadline to 2025 and reins in some spending. The bill signed into law by the president will preserve many programs at their current funding levels, and Democrats were able to prevent any changes to the Medicare and Medicaid programs.

Still, millions of Americans are likely to lose their Medicaid coverage this year as states are once again allowed to redetermine who is eligible and who is not; Medicaid rolls were frozen for three years due to the pandemic. Data from states that have begun to disenroll people suggests that the vast majority of those losing insurance are not those who are no longer eligible, but instead people who failed to complete required paperwork — if they received it in the first place.

This week’s panelists are Julie Rovner of KFF Health News, Joanne Kenen of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico, Lauren Weber of The Washington Post, and Jessie Hellmann of CQ Roll Call.

Panelists

Jessie Hellmann
CQ Roll Call

@jessiehellmann

Read Jessie's stories

Joanne Kenen
Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico

@JoanneKenen

Read Joanne's stories

Lauren Weber
The Washington Post

@LaurenWeberHP

Read Lauren's stories

Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:

• Lawmakers and White House officials spared health programs from substantial spending cuts in a last-minute agreement to raise the nation’s debt ceiling. And Biden named Mandy Cohen, a former North Carolina health director who worked in the Obama administration, to be the next director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Though she lacks academic credentials in infectious diseases, Cohen enters the job with a reputation as someone who can listen and be listened to by both Democrats and Republicans.
• The removal of many Americans from the Medicaid program, post-public health emergency, is going as expected: With hundreds of thousands already stripped from the rolls, most have been deemed ineligible not because they don’t meet the criteria, but because they failed to file the proper paperwork in time. Nearly 95 million people were on Medicaid before the unwinding began.
• Eastern and now southern parts of the United States are experiencing hazardous air quality conditions as wildfire smoke drifts from Canada, raising the urgency surrounding conversations about the health effects of climate change.
• The drugmaker Merck & Co. sued the federal government this week, challenging its ability to press drugmakers into negotiations over what Medicare will pay for some of the most expensive drugs. Experts predict Merck’s coercion argument could fall flat because drugmakers voluntarily choose to participate in Medicare, though it is unlikely this will be the last lawsuit over the issue.
• In abortion news, some doctors are pushing back against the Indiana medical board’s decision to reprimand and fine an OB-GYN who spoke out about providing an abortion to a 10-year-old rape victim from Ohio. The doctors argue the decision could set a bad precedent and suppress doctors’ efforts to communicate with the public about health issues.

Also this week, Rovner interviews KFF Health News senior correspondent Sarah Jane Tribble, who reported the latest KFF Health News-NPR “Bill of the Month” feature, about a patient with Swiss health insurance who experienced the sticker shock of the U.S. health care system after an emergency appendectomy. If you have an outrageous or exorbitant medical bill you want to share with us, you can do that here.

Plus, for “extra credit,” the panelists suggest health policy stories they read this week that they think you should read, too:

Julie Rovner: The New York Times’ “This Nonprofit Health System Cuts Off Patients With Medical Debt,” by Sarah Kliff and Jessica Silver-Greenberg.

Jessie Hellmann: MLive’s “During the Darkest Days of COVID, Some Michigan Hospitals Made 100s of Millions,” by Matthew Miller and Danielle Salisbury.

Joanne Kenen: Politico Magazine’s “Can Hospitals Turn Into Climate Change Fighting Machines?” by Joanne Kenen.

Lauren Weber: The Washington Post’s “Smoke Brings a Warning: There’s No Escaping Climate’s Threat to Health,” by Dan Diamond, Joshua Partlow, Brady Dennis, and Emmanuel Felton.

Also mentioned in this week’s episode:

KFF Health News’ “As Medicaid Purge Begins, ‘Staggering Numbers’ of Americans Lose Coverage,” by Hannah Recht.

Click to open the transcript

Transcript: Debt Deal Leaves Health Programs (Mostly) Intact

KFF Health News’ ‘What the Health?’Episode Title: Debt Deal Leaves Health Programs (Mostly) IntactEpisode Number: 301Published: June 8, 2023

[Editor’s note: This transcript, generated using transcription software, has been edited for style and clarity.]

Julie Rovner: Hello and welcome back to “What the Health?”. I’m Julie Rovner, chief Washington correspondent at KFF Health News. And I’m joined by some of the best and smartest health reporters in Washington. We are taping this week from the smoky, hazy, “code purple” Washington, D.C., area on Thursday, June 8, at 10 a.m. As always, news happens fast and things might have changed by the time you hear this. So here we go. We are joined today via video conference by Joanne Kenen of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico.

Joanne Kenen: Hi, everybody.

Rovner: Lauren Weber, of The Washington Post.

Lauren Weber: Hi.

Rovner: And Jessie Hellmann, of CQ Roll Call.

Hellmann: Hello.

Rovner: Later in this episode we’ll have my interview with KFF Health News’s Sarah Jane Tribble about the latest KFF Health News-NPR “Bill of the Month.” This month is about the sticker shock of the American health care system experienced by residents of other countries. Before we get to this week’s news, I hope you all enjoyed our special panel of big health policy thinkers for our 300th episode. If you didn’t listen, you might want to go back and do that at some point. Also, that means we have two weeks of news to catch up on, so let us get to it. We’re going to start this week, I hope, for the last time with the fight over the debt ceiling. Despite lots of doubts, President Biden managed to strike a budget deal with House Republicans, which fairly promptly passed the House and Senate and was signed into law a whole two days before the Treasury Department had warned that the U.S. might default. The final package extends the debt ceiling until January 1, 2025, so after the next election, which was a big win for the Democrats, who don’t want to do this exercise again anytime soon. In exchange, Republicans got some budget savings, but nothing like the dramatic bill that House Republicans passed earlier this spring. So, Jessie, what would it do to health programs?

Hellmann: The deal cuts spending by 1.5 trillion over 10 years. It has caps on nondefense discretionary funding. That would have a big impact on agencies and programs like the NIH [National Institutes of Health], which has been accustomed to getting pretty large increases over the years. So nondefense discretionary spending will be limited to about 704 billion next fiscal year, which is a cut of about 5%. And then there’s going to be a 1% increase in fiscal 2025, which, when you consider inflation, probably isn’t much of an increase at all. So the next steps are seeing what the appropriators do. They’re going to have to find a balance between what programs get increases, which ones get flat funding — it’s probably going to be a lot of flat funding, and we’re probably at the end of an era for now with these large increases for NIH and other programs, which have traditionally been very bipartisan, but it’s just a different climate right now.

Rovner: And just to be clear, I mean, this agreement doesn’t actually touch the big sources of federal health spending, which are Medicare and Medicaid, not even any work requirements that the Republicans really wanted for Medicaid. In some ways, the Democrats who wanted to protect health spending got off pretty easy, or easier than I imagine they expected they would, right?

Hellmann: Advocates would say it could have been much worse. All things considered, when you look at the current climate and what some of the more conservative members of the House were initially asking for, this is a win for Democrats and for people who wanted to protect health care spending, especially the entitlements, because they — Republicans did want Medicaid work requirements and those just did not end up in the bill; they were a nonstarter. So, kind of health-care-related, depending on how you look at it, there was an increase in work requirements for SNAP [Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program], which is, like, a food assistance program. So that will be extended to age 55, though they did include more exemptions for people who are veterans —

Rovner: Yeah, overall, that may be a wash, right? There may be the same or fewer people who are subject to work requirements.

Hellmann: Yeah. And all those changes would end in 2030, so —

Weber: Yeah, I just wanted to say, I mean, if we think about this — we’re coming out of a pandemic and we’re not exactly investing in the health system — I think it’s necessary to have that kind of step-back context. And we’ve seen this before. You know, it’s the boom-bust cycle of pandemic preparedness funding, except accelerated to some extent. I mean, from what I understand, the debt deal also clawed back some of the public health spending that they were expecting in the billions of dollars. And I think the long-term ramifications of that remain to be seen. But we could all be writing about that in 10 years again when we’re looking at ways that funding fell short in preparedness.

Rovner: Yeah, Joanne and I will remember that. Yeah, going back to 2001. Yeah. Is that what you were about to say?

Kenen: I mean, this happens all the time.

Weber: All the time, right.

Kenen: And we learn lessons. I mean, the pandemic was the most vivid lesson, but we have learned lessons in the past. After anthrax, they spent more money, and then they cut it back again. I mean, I remember in 2008, 2009, there was a big fiscal battle — I don’t remember which battle it was — you know, Susan Collins being, you know, one of the key moderates to cut the deal. You know, what she wanted was to get rid of the pandemic flu funding. And then a year later, we had H1N1, which turned out not to be as bad as it could have been for a whole variety of reasons. But it’s a cliche: Public health, when it works, you don’t see it and therefore people think you don’t need it. Put that — put the politics of what’s happened to public health over the last three years on top of that, and, you know, public health is always going to have to struggle for funds. Public health and larger preparedness is always going to happen to have to struggle for funds. And it would have, whether it was the normal appropriations process this year, which is still to come, or the debt ceiling. It is a lesson we do not learn the hard way.

Weber: That’s exactly right. I’ll never forget that Tom Harkin said to me that after Obama cut, he sacrificed a bunch of prevention funding for the CDC [Centers for Disease Control and Prevention] in the ACA [Affordable Care Act] deal, and he never spoke to him again, he told me, because he was so upset because he felt like those billions of dollars could have made a difference. And who knows if 10 years from now we’ll all be talking about this pivotal moment once more.

Rovner: Yeah, Tom Harkin, the now-former senator from Iowa, who put a lot of prevention into the ACA; that was the one thing he really worked hard to do. And he got it in. And as you point out, and it was almost immediately taken back out.

Weber: Yeah.

Kenen: Not all of it.

Weber: Not all of it, but a lot of it.

Kenen: It wasn’t zero.

Rovner: It became a piggy bank for other things. I do want to talk about the NIH for a minute, though, because Jessie, as you mentioned, there isn’t going to be a lot of extra money, and NIH is used to — over the last 30 years — being a bipartisan darling for spending. Well, now it seems like Congress, particularly some of the Republicans, are not so happy with the NIH, particularly the way it handled covid. There’s a new NIH director who has been nominated, Dr. Monica Bertagnolli, who is currently the head of the National Cancer Institute. This could be a rocky summer for the NIH on Capitol Hill, couldn’t it?

Hellmann: Yeah, I think there’s been a strong desire for Republicans to do a lot of oversight. They’ve been looking at the CDC. I think they’re probably going to be looking at the NIH next. Francis Collins is no longer at NIH. Anthony Fauci is no longer there. But I think Republicans have indicated they want to bring them back in to talk about some of the things that happened during the pandemic, especially when it comes to some of the projects that were funded.

Kenen: There was a lull in raising NIH spending. It was flat for a number of years. I can’t remember the exact dates, but I remember it was — Arlen Specter was still alive, and it … [unintelligible] … because he is the one who traditionally has gotten a lot of bump ups in spending. And then there was a few years, quite a few years, where it was flat. And then Specter got the spigots opened again and they stayed open for a good 10 or 15 years. So we’re seeing, and partly a fiscal pause, and partly the — again, it’s the politicization of science and public health that we did not have to this extent before this pandemic.

Rovner: Yeah, I think it’s been a while since NIH has been under serious scrutiny on Capitol Hill. Well, speaking of the CDC, which has been under serious scrutiny since the beginning of the pandemic, apparently is getting a new director in Dr. Mandy Cohen, assuming that she is appointed as expected. She won’t have to be confirmed by the Senate because the CDC director won’t be subject to Senate approval until 2025. Now, Mandy Cohen has done a lot of things. She worked in the Obama administration on the implementation of the Affordable Care Act. She ran North Carolina’s Department of Health [and Human Services], but she’s not really a noted public health expert or even an infectious disease doctor. Why her for this very embattled agency at this very difficult time?

Kenen: I think there are a number of reasons. A lot of her career was on Obamacare kind of things and on CMS kind of quality-over-quantity kind of things, payment reform, all that. She is a physician, but she did a good job in North Carolina as the top state official during the pandemic. I reported a couple of magazine pieces. I spent a lot of time in North Carolina before the pandemic when she was the state health secretary, and she was an innovator. And not only was she an innovator on things like, you know, integrating social determinants into the Medicaid system; she got bipartisan support. She developed not perfect, but pretty good relations with the state Republicans, and they are not moderates. So I think I remember writing a line that said something, you know, in one of those articles, saying something like, “She would talk to the Republicans about the return on investment and then say, ‘And it’s also the right thing to do.’ And then she would go to the Democrats and say, ‘This is the right thing to do. And there’s also an ROI.’”. So, so I think in a sort of low-key way, she has developed a reputation for someone who can listen and be listened to. I still think it’s a really hard job and it’s going to batter anyone who takes it.

Rovner: I suspect right now at CDC that those are probably more important qualities than somebody who’s actually a public health expert but does not know how to, you know, basically rescue this agency from the current being beaten about the head and shoulders by just about everyone.

Kenen: Yeah, but she also was the face of pandemic response in her state. And she did vaccination and she did disparities and she did messaging and she did a lot of the things that — she does not have an infectious disease degree, but she basically did practice it for the last couple of years.

Rovner: She’s far from a total novice.

Kenen: Yeah.

Rovner: All right. Well, it’s been a while since we talked about the Medicaid “unwinding” that began in some states in early April. And the early results that we’re seeing are pretty much as expected. Many people are being purged from the Medicaid rolls, not because they’re earning too much or have found other insurance, but because of paperwork issues; either they have not returned their paperwork or, in some cases, have not gotten the needed paperwork. Lauren, what are we seeing about how this is starting to work out, particularly in the early states?

Weber: So as you said, I mean, much like we expected to see: So 600,000 Americans have been disenrolled so far, since April 1. And some great reporting that my former colleague Hannah Recht did this past week: She reached out to a bunch of states and got ahold of data from 19 of them, I believe. And in Florida, it was like 250,000 people were disenrolled and somewhere north of 80% of them, it was for paperwork reasons. And when we think about paperwork reasons, I just want us all to take a step back. I don’t know about anyone listening to this, but it’s not like I fill out my bills on the most prompt of terms all of the time. And in some of these cases, people had two weeks to return paperwork where they may not have lived at the same address. Some of these forms are really onerous to fill out. They require payroll tax forms, you know, that you may not have easily accessible — all things that have been predicted, but the hard numbers just show is the vast majority of people getting disenrolled right now are being [dis]enrolled for paperwork, not because of eligibility reasons. And too, it’s worth noting, the reason this great Medicaid unwinding is happening is because this was all frozen for three years, so people are not in the habit of having to fill out a renewal form. So it’s important to keep that in mind, that as we’re seeing the hard data show, that a lot of this is, is straight-up paperwork issues. The people that are missing that paperwork may not be receiving it or just may not know they’re supposed to be doing it.

Rovner: As a reminder, I think by the time the three-year freeze was over, there were 90 million people on Medicaid.

Kenen: Ninety-five.

Rovner: Yeah. So it’s a lot; it’s like a quarter of the population of the country. So, I mean, this is really impacting a lot of people. You know, I know particularly red states want to do this because they feel like they’re wasting money keeping ineligible people on the rolls. But if eligible people become uninsured, you can see how they’re going to eventually get sicker, seek care; those providers are going to check and see if they’re eligible for Medicaid, and if they are, they’re going to put them back on Medicaid. So they’re going to end up costing even more. Joanne, you wanted to say something?

Kenen: Yeah. Almost everybody is eligible for something. The exceptions are the people who fall into the Medicaid gap, which is now down to 10 states.

Rovner: You mean, almost everybody currently on Medicaid is eligible.

Kenen: Anyone getting this disenrollment notification or supposed to receive the disenrollment notification that never reaches them — almost everybody is eligible for, they’re still eligible for Medicaid, which is true for the bulk of them. If they’re not, they’re going to be eligible for the ACA. These are low-income people. They’re going to get a lot heavily subsidized. Whether they understand that or not, someone needs to explain it to them. They’re working now, and the job market is strong. You know, it’s not 2020 anymore. They may be able to get coverage at work. Some of them are getting coverage at work. One of the things that I wrote about recently was the role of providers. States are really uneven. Some states are doing a much better job. You know, we’ve seen the numbers out of Florida. They’re really huge disenrollment numbers. Some states are doing a better job. Georgetown Center on Health Insurance — what’s the right acronym? — Children’s and Family. They’re tracking, they have a state tracker, but providers can step up, and there’s a lot of variability. I interviewed a health system, a safety net in Indiana, which is a red state, and they have this really extensive outreach system set up through mail, phone, texts, through the electronic health records, and when you walk in. And they have everybody in the whole system, from the front desk to the insurance specialists, able to help people sort this through. So some of the providers are quite proactive in helping people connect, because there’s three things: There’s understanding you’re no longer eligible, there’s understanding what you are eligible for, and then actually signing up. They’re all hard. You know, if your government’s not going to do a good job, are your providers or your community health clinics or your safety net hospitals — what are they doing in your state? That’s an important question to ask.

Rovner: Providers have an incentive because they would like to be paid.

Kenen: Paid.

Weber: Well, the thing about Indiana too, Joanne, I mean — so that was one of the states that Hannah got the data from. They had I think it was 53,000 residents that have lost coverage in the first amount of unwinding. 89% of them were for paperwork. I mean, these are not small fractions. I mean, it is the vast majority that is being lost for this reason. So that’s really interesting to hear that the providers there are stepping up to face that.

Kenen: It’s not all of them, but you can capture these people. I mean, there’s a lot that can go wrong. There’s a lot that — in the best system, you’re dealing with [a] population that moves around, they don’t have stable lives, they’ve got lots of other things to deal with day to day, and dealing with a health insurance notice in a language you may not speak delivered to an address that you no longer live at — that’s a lot of strikes.

Rovner: It is not easy. All right. Well, because we’re in Washington, D.C., we have to talk about climate change this week. My mother, the journalist, used to say whenever she would go give a speech, that news is what happens to or in the presence of an editor. I have amended that to say now news is what happens in Washington, D.C., or New York City. And since Washington, D.C., and New York City are both having terrible air quality — legendary, historically high air quality — weeks, people are noticing climate change. And yes, I know you guys on the West Coast are saying, “Uh, hello. We’ve been dealing with this for a couple of years.” But Joanne and Lauren, both of your extra credits this week have to do with it. So I’m going to let you do them early. Lauren, why don’t you go first?

Weber: Yeah, I’ve highlighted a piece by my colleague Dan Diamond and a bunch of other of my colleagues, who wrote all about how this is just a sign of what’s to come. I mean, this is not something that is going away. The piece is titled “Smoke Brings a Warning: There’s No Escaping Climate’s Threat to Health.” I think, Julie, you hit the nail on the head. You know, we all live here in Washington, D.C. A lot of other journalist friends live in New York. There’s been a lot of grousing on Twitter that everyone is now covering this because they can see it. But the reality is, when people can see it, they pay attention. And so the point of the story is, you know, look, I mean, this is climate change in action. We’re watching it. You know, it’s interesting; this story includes a quote from Mitch McConnell saying [to] follow the public health authorities, which I found to be quite fascinating considering the current Republican stance on some public health authorities during the pandemic. And I’m just very curious to see, as we continue to see this climate change in reality, how that messaging changes from both parties.

[Editor’s note: The quote Weber referenced did not come from McConnell but from Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer, a Democrat, and would not have warranted as much fascination in this context.]

Kenen: But I think that you’ve seen, with the fires on the West Coast, nobody is denying that there’s smoke and pollutants in the air — of either party. You know, we can look out our windows and see it right now, right? But they’re not necessarily accepting that it’s because of climate change, and that — I’m not sure that this episode changes that. Because many of the conservatives say it’s not climate change; it’s poor management of forests. That’s the one you hear a lot. But there are other explain — or it’s just, you know, natural variation and it’ll settle down. So it remains to be seen whether this creates any kind of public acknowledgment. I mean, you have conservative lawmakers who live in parts of the country that are already very — on coasts, on hurricane areas, and, you know, forest fire areas there. You have people who are already experiencing it in their own communities, and it does not make them embrace the awareness of poor air quality because of a forest fire. Yes. Does it do what Julie was alluding to, which is change policy or acknowledging what, you know, the four of us know, and many millions of other people, you know, that this is related to climate change, not just — you know, I’m not an expert in forestry, but this is not just — how many fires in Canada, 230?

Rovner: Yeah. Nova Scotia and Quebec don’t tend to have serious forest fire issues.

Kenen: Right. This is across — this is across huge parts of the United States now. It’s going into the South now. I was on the sixth floor of a building in Baltimore yesterday, and you could see it rolling in.

Rovner: Yeah. You have a story about people trying to do something about it. So why don’t you tell us about that.

Kenen: Well it was a coincidence that that story posted this week, because I had been working on it for a couple of months, but I wrote a story. The headline was — it’s in Politico Magazine — it’s “Can Hospitals Turn Into Climate Change Fighting Machines?” Although one version of it had a headline that I personally liked more, which was “Turn Off the Laughing Gas.” And it’s about how hospitals are trying to reduce their own carbon footprint. And when I wrote this story, I was just stunned to learn how big that carbon footprint is. The health sector is 8.5% of greenhouse gas emissions in the United States, and that’s twice as high as the health sector in comparable industrial countries, and —

Rovner: We’re No. 1!

Kenen: Yes, once again, and most of it’s from hospitals. And there’s a lot that the early adopters, which is now, I would say about 15% of U.S. hospitals are really out there trying to do things, ranging from changing their laughing gas pipes to composting to all sorts of, you know, energy, food, waste, huge amount of waste. But one of the — you know, everything in hospitals is use once and throw it out or unwrap it and don’t even use it and still have to throw it out. But one of the themes of the people I spoke to is that hospitals and doctors and nurses and everybody else are making the connection between climate change and the health of their own communities. And that’s what we’re seeing today. That’s where the phenomenon Laura was talking about is connected. Because if you look out the window and you can see the harmful air, and some of these people are going to be showing up in the emergency rooms today and tomorrow, and in respiratory clinics, and people whose conditions are aggravated, people who are already vulnerable, that the medical establishment is making the connection between the health of their own community, the health of their own patients, and climate. And that’s where you see more buy-in into this, you know, greening of American hospitals.

Rovner: Speaking of issues that that seem insoluble but people are starting to work on, drug prices. In drug price news, drug giant Merck this week filed suit against the federal government, charging that the new requirements for Medicare price negotiation are unconstitutional for a variety of reasons. Now, a lot of health lawyers seem pretty dubious about most of those claims. What’s Merck trying to argue here, and why aren’t people buying what they’re selling?

Hellmann: So there’s two main arguments they’re trying to make. The primary one is they say this drug price negotiation program violates the Fifth Amendment, which prohibits the government from taking private property for public use without just compensation. So they argue that under this negotiation process they would basically be coerced or forced into selling these drugs for a price that they think is below its worth. And then the other argument they make is it violates their First Amendment rights because they would be forced to sign an agreement they didn’t agree with, because if they walk away from the negotiations, they have to pay a tax. And so it’s this coercive argument that they are making. But there’s been some skepticism. You know, Nick Bagley noted on Twitter that it’s voluntary to participate in Medicare. Merck doesn’t have a constitutional right to sell its drugs to the government at a price that they have set. And he also noted — I thought this was interesting — I didn’t know that there was kind of a similar case 50 years ago, when Medicare was created. Doctors had sued over a law Congress passed requiring that a panel review treatment decisions that doctors were making. The doctors sued also under the Fifth Amendment in the courts, and the Supreme Court sided with the government. So he seems to think there’s a precedent in favor of the government’s approach here. And there just seems to be a lot of skepticism around these arguments.

Rovner: And Nick Bagley, for those of you who don’t know, is a noted law professor at the University of Michigan who specializes in health law. So he knows whereof he speaks on this stuff. I mean, Joanne, you were, you were mentioning, I mean, this was pretty expected somebody was going to sue over this.

Kenen: It’s probably not the last suit either. It’s probably the first of, but, I mean, the government sets other prices in health care. And, you know, it sets Medicare Advantage rates. It sets rates for all sorts of Medicare procedures. The VA [U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs] sets prices for every drug that’s in its formulary or, you know, buys it at a negotiated —

Rovner: Private insurers set prices.

Kenen: Right. But that’s not government. That’s different.

Rovner: That’s true.

Kenen: They’re not suing private insurers. So, you know, I’m not Nick Bagley, but I usually respect what Nick Bagley has to say. On the other hand, we’ve also seen the courts do all sorts of things we have not expected them to do. There’s another Obamacare case right now. So, precedent, schmecedent, you know, like — although on this one we did expect the lawsuits. Somebody also pointed out, I can’t remember where I read it, so I’m sorry not to credit it, maybe it was even Nick — that even if they lose, if they buy a extra year or two, they get another year or two of profits, and that might be all they care about.

Rovner: It may well be. All right. Well, let us turn to abortion. It’s actually been relatively quiet on the abortion front these last couple of weeks as we approach the one-year anniversary of the Supreme Court striking down Roe v Wade. I did want to mention something that’s still going on in Indiana, however. You may remember the case last year of the 10-year-old who was raped in Ohio and had to go to Indiana to have the pregnancy terminated. That was the case that anti-abortion activists insisted was made up until the rapist was arraigned in court and basically admitted that he had done it. Well, the Indiana doctor who provided that care is still feeling the repercussions of that case. Caitlin Bernard, who’s a prominent OB-GYN at the Indiana University Health system, was first challenged by the state’s attorney general, who accused her of not reporting the child abuse to the proper state authorities. That was not the case; she actually had. But the attorney general, who’s actually a former congressman, Todd Rokita, then asked the state’s medical licensing board to discipline her for talking about the case, without naming the patient, to the media. Last month, the majority of the board voted to formally reprimand her and fine her $3,000. Now, however, lots of other doctors, including those who don’t have anything to do with reproductive health care, are arguing that the precedent of punishing doctors for speaking out about important and sometimes controversial issues is something that is dangerous. How serious a precedent could this turn out to be? She didn’t really violate anybody’s private — she didn’t name the patient. Lauren, you wanted to respond.

Weber: Yeah, I just think it’s really interesting. If you look at the context, the number of doctors that actually get dinged by the medical board, it’s only a couple thousand a year. So this is pretty rare. And usually what you get dinged for by the medical board are really severe things like sexual assault, drug abuse, alcohol abuse. So this would seem to indicate quite some politicization, and the fact that the AG was involved. And I do think that, especially in the backdrop of all these OB-GYN residents that are looking to apply to different states, I think this is one of the things that adds a chilling effect for some reproductive care in some of these red states, where you see a medical board take action like this. And I just think in general — it cannot be stated enough — this is a rare action, and a lot of medical board actions will be, even if there is an action, will be a letter in your file. I mean, to even have a fine is quite something and not it be like a continuing education credit. So it’s quite noteworthy.

Rovner: Well, meanwhile, back in Texas, the judge who declared the abortion pill to have been wrongly approved by the FDA, Trump appointee Matthew Kacsmaryk, is now considering a case that could effectively bankrupt Planned Parenthood for continuing to provide family planning and other health services to Medicaid patients while Texas and Louisiana were trying to kick them out of the program because the clinics also provided abortions in some cases. Now, during the time in question, a federal court had ordered the clinics to continue to operate as usual, banning funding for abortions, which always has been the case, but allowing other services to be provided and reimbursed by Medicaid. This is another of those cases that feels very far-fetched, except that it’s before a judge who has found in favor of just about every conservative plaintiff that has sought him out. This could also be a big deal nationally, right? I mean, Planned Parenthood has been a participant in the Medicaid program in most states for years — again, not paying for abortion, but for paying for lots of other services that they provide.

Kenen: The way this case was structured, there’s all these enormous number of penalties, like 11,000 per case or something, and it basically comes out to be $1.8 billion. It would bankrupt Planned Parenthood nationally, which is clearly the goal of this group, which has a long history that — we don’t have time to go into their long history. They’re an anti-abortion group that’s — you know, they were filming people, and there’s a lot of history there. It’s the same people. But, you know, this judge may in fact come out with a ruling that attempts to shut down Planned Parenthood completely. It doesn’t mean that this particular decision would be upheld by the 5th Circuit or anybody else.

Rovner: Or not. The same way the mifepristone ruling finally woke up other drugmakers who don’t have anything to do with the abortion fight because, oh my goodness, if a judge can overturn the approval of a drug, what does the FDA approval mean? This could be any government contractor — that you can end up being sued for having accepted money that was legal at the time you accepted it, which feels like not really a very good business partner issue. So another one that we will definitely keep an eye on.

Kenen: I mean, that’s the way it may get framed later, is that this isn’t really about Planned Parenthood; this is about a business or entity obeying the law, or court order. I mean, that’s how the pushback might come. I mean, I think people think Planned Parenthood, abortion, they equate those. And most Planned Parenthood clinics do not provide abortion, while those that do are not using federal funds, as a rule; there are exceptions. And Planned Parenthood is also a women’s health provider. They do prenatal care in some cases; they do STD [sexually transmitted disease] treatment and testing. They do contraception. They, you know, they do other things. Shutting down Planned Parenthood would mean cutting off many women’s access to a lot of basic health care.

Rovner: And men too, I am always reminded, because, particularly for sexually transmitted diseases, they’re an important provider.

Kenen: Yeah. HIV and other things.

Rovner: All right. Well, that is this week’s news. Now we will play my “Bill of the Month” interview with Sarah Jane Tribble, and then we will be back with our extra credits. We are pleased to welcome back to the podcast Sarah Jane Tribble, who reported and wrote the latest KFF Health News-NPR “Bill of the Month” story. Sarah, thanks for coming in.

Sarah Jane Tribble: Thanks for having me.

Rovner: So this month’s patient is a former American who now lives in Switzerland, a country with a very comprehensive health insurance system. But apparently it’s not comprehensive enough to cover the astronomical cost of U.S. health care. So tell us who the patient is and how he ended up with a big bill.

Tribble: Yeah. Jay Comfort is an American expatriate, and he has lived overseas for years. He’s a former educator. He’s 66 years old. And he decided to retire in Switzerland. He has that country’s basic health insurance plan. He pays his monthly fee and gets a deductible, like we do here in the U.S. He traveled last year for his daughter’s wedding and ended up with an emergency appendectomy in the ER [emergency room] at the University of Pittsburgh in Williamsport.

Rovner: And how big was the ultimate bill?

Tribble: Well, he was in the hospital just about 14 hours, and he ended up with a bill of just over $42,000.

Rovner: So not even overnight.

Tribble: No.

Rovner: That feels like a lot for what was presumably a simple appendectomy. Is it a lot?

Tribble: We talked to some experts, and it was above what they had predicted it would be. It did include the emergency appendectomy, some scans, some laboratory testing, three hours in the recovery room. There was also some additional diagnostic testing. They had sent off some cells for a diagnostics and did find cancer at the time. Still, it didn’t really explain all the extra cost. Healthcare Bluebook, which you can look up online, has this at about $14,000 for an appendectomy. One expert told me, if you look at Medicare prices and average out in that region, it would be between $6,500 and $18,000-ish. So, yeah, this was expensive compared to what the experts told us.

Rovner: So he goes home and he files a claim with his Swiss insurance. What did they say?

Tribble: Well, first let me just say, cost in the U.S. can be two to three times that in other countries. Switzerland isn’t known as a cheap country, actually. Its health care is —

Rovner: It’s the second most expensive after the U.S.

Tribble: Considered the most expensive in Europe, right. So this is pretty well known. So he was still surprised, though, when he got the response from his Swiss insurance. They said they were willing to pay double because it was an emergency abroad. Total, with the appendectomy and some extra additional scans and so forth: About $8,000 is what they were willing to pay.

Rovner: So, double what they would have paid if he’d had it done in Switzerland.

Tribble: Yeah.

Rovner: So 42 minus 8 leaves a large balance left. Yeah. I mean, he’s stuck with — what is that — $34,000. He’s on the hook for that. I mean, it’s better than having nothing, obviously, but it’s a lot of money and it’s really striking, the difference, because, you know, in Switzerland, they’re very much like, we would pay this amount, then we’ll double it to pay you back. And he still has this enormous bill he’s left paying. He’s on a fixed income. He’s retired. So it’s quite the shock to his system.

Rovner: So what happened? Has this been resolved?

Tribble: Let me first tell you what happened at the ER, because Jay was very diligent about providing documents and explaining everything. We had multiple Zoom calls. Jay’s wife was with him, and she provided the Swiss insurance card to UPMC. Now, UPMC had confirmed that there was some confusion, and it took months for Jay to get his bill. He had to call and reach out to UPMC to get his bill. He wants to pay his bill. He wants to pay his fair share, but he doesn’t consider $42,000 a fair share. So he wants to now negotiate the bill. We’ve left it at that, actually. UPMC says they are charging standard charges and that he has not requested financial assistance. And Jay says he would like to negotiate his bill.

Rovner: So that’s where we are. What is the takeaway here? Obviously, “don’t have an emergency in a country where you don’t have insurance” doesn’t feel very practical.

Tribble: Well, yeah, I mean, this was really interesting for me. I’ve been a health care reporter a long time. I’ve heard about travel insurance. The takeaway here for Jay is he would have been wise to get some travel insurance. Now, Jay did tell me previously he had tried to get Medicare. He is a U.S. citizen residing in Switzerland. He does qualify. He had worked in the U.S. long enough to qualify for it. He had gone through some phone calls and so forth and didn’t have it before coming here. He told me in the last couple of weeks that he now has gotten Medicare. However, that may not have helped him too much because it was an outpatient procedure. And it’s important to note that if you have Medicare and you’re 65 in the U.S., when you go overseas, it’s not likely to cover much. So the takeaway: Costs in the U.S. are more expensive than most places in the world, and you should be prepared if you’re traveling overseas and you find yourself in a situation, you might consider travel insurance anyway.

Rovner: So both ways.

Tribble: Yeah.

Rovner: Americans going somewhere else and people from somewhere else coming here.

Tribble: Well, if you’re a contract worker or a student on visa or somebody visiting the U.S., you’re definitely [going to] want to get some insurance because, wherever you’re coming from, most likely that insurance isn’t going to pay the full freight of what the costs are in the U.S.

Rovner: OK. Sarah Jane Tribble, thank you very much.

Tribble: Thanks so much.

Rovner: OK, we’re back, and it’s time for our extra credit segment. That’s where we each recommend a story we read this week that we think you should read, too. As always, don’t worry if you miss it. We will post the links on the podcast page at kffhealthnews.org and in our show notes on your phone or other mobile device. Lauren and Joanne, you’ve already given us yours, so Jessie, you’re next.

Hellmann: Yeah. My extra credit is from MLive.com, an outlet in Michigan. It’s titled “During the Darkest Days of COVID, Some Michigan Hospitals Made 100s of Millions.” They looked at tax records, audited financial statements in federal data, and found that some hospitals and health systems in Michigan actually did really well during the pandemic, with increases in operating profits and overall net assets. A big part of this was because of the covid relief funding that was coming in, but the article noted that, despite this, hospitals were still saying that they were stretched really thin, where they were having to lay off people. They didn’t have money for PPE [personal protective equipment], and they were having to institute, like, other cost-saving measures. So I thought this was a really interesting, like, a local look at how hospitals are kind of facing a backlash now. We’ve seen it in Congress a little bit, just more of an interest in looking at their finances and how they were impacted by the pandemic, because while some hospitals really did see losses, like small, rural, or independent hospitals, some of the bigger health systems came out on top. But you’re still hearing those arguments that they need more help, they need more funding.

Rovner: Well, my story is also about a hospital system. It’s yet another piece of reporting about nonprofit hospitals failing to live up to their requirement to provide, quote, “community benefits,” by our podcast panelist at The New York Times Sarah Kliff and Jessica Silver-Greenberg. It’s called “This Nonprofit Health System Cuts Off Patients With Medical Debt.” And it’s about a highly respected and highly profitable health system based in Minnesota called Allina and its policy of cutting off patients from all nonemergency services until they pay back their debts in full. Now, nonemergency services because federal law requires them to treat patients in emergencies. It’s not all patients. It’s just those who have run up debt of at least $1,500 on three separate occasions. But that is very easy to do in today’s health system. And the policy isn’t optional. Allina’s computerized appointment system will actually block the accounts of those who have debts that they need to pay off. It is quite a story, and yet another in this long list of stories about hospitals behaving badly. OK, that is our show for this week. As always, if you enjoy the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left us a review; that helps other people find us too. Special thanks, as always, to our ever-patient producer, Francis Ying. As always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org. Or you can tweet me, at least for now. I’m still there. I’m @jrovner. Joanne?

Kenen: @JoanneKenen

Rovner: Jessie.

Hellmann: @jessiehellmann

Rovner: Lauren.

Weber: @LaurenWeberHP

Rovner: We will be back in your feed next week. Until then, be healthy.

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Julie Rovner is chief Washington correspondent and host of KFF Health News’ weekly health policy news podcast, “What the Health?” A noted expert on health policy issues, Julie is the author of the critically praised reference book “Health Care Politics and Policy A to Z,” now in its third edition.

This week, KFF Health News’ weekly policy news podcast — “What the Health?” — celebrates its 300th episode with a wide-ranging discussion of what’s happened in health policy since it launched in 2017 and what may happen in the next decade.

For this special conversation, host and chief Washington correspondent Julie Rovner is joined by three prominent “big thinkers” in health policy: Ezekiel Emanuel of the University of Pennsylvania; Jeff Goldsmith, president of Health Futures; and Farzad Mostashari, CEO of Aledade.

Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:

• Since 2017, dissatisfaction has permeated the U.S. health care system. The frustrations of providers, patients, and others in the field point to a variety of structural problems — many of which are challenging to address through policymaking due to the strength of interest-group politics. The emergence of the huge, profitable “SuperMed” firm UnitedHealth Group and the rise of urgent virtual care have also transformed health care in recent years.
• As high costs and big profits dominate the national conversation, lawmakers and policymakers have delivered surprises, including the beginnings of regulation of drug prices. Even the Trump administration, with its dedication to undermining the Affordable Care Act, demonstrated interest in encouraging competition. Meanwhile, on the clinical side, a number of pharmaceuticals are proving especially effective at reducing hospitalizations.
• Looking forward, the face of insurance is changing. Commercial insurance is seeing profits evaporate, private Medicare Advantage plans are draining taxpayer dollars, and employers are making expensive, short-sighted coverage decisions. Some stakeholders see a critical need to reconsider how to be more efficient and effective at delivering care in the United States.
• The deterioration of the patient’s experience signals a major disconnect between the organizational problems providing care and the everyday dedication of individual providers: The local hospital may provide excellent service to a patient experiencing a heart attack, yet Medicare will not pay for patients to have blood pressure cuffs at home, for instance. Low reimbursements for primary care providers exacerbate these problems.

Plus, our experts — drawing on extensive experience making government and private-sector policy and even practicing medicine — name their top candidates for attainable improvements that would make a big difference in the health care system.

Further reading by the panelists from this week’s episode:

• Health Affairs’ “Nine Health Care Megatrends, Part 1: System and Payment Reform,” by Ezekiel J. Emanuel.
• Health Affairs’ “We Have a National Strategy for Accountable Care, So What’s Next?” by Sean Cavanaugh, Mandy K. Cohen, and Farzad Mostashari.
• The Health Care Blog’s “What Can We Learn From the Envision Bankruptcy?” by Jeff Goldsmith.

Click to open the transcript

Transcript: Our 300th Episode!

KFF Health News’ ‘What the Health?’

Episode Title: Our 300th Episode!

Episode Number: 300

Published: June 1, 2023

[Editor’s note: This transcript, generated using transcription software, has been edited for style and clarity.]

Julie Rovner: Hello and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Julie Rovner, chief Washington correspondent at KFF Health News. Usually I’m joined by some of the best and smartest health reporters in Washington. But today is our 300th episode, and we have something special planned. Instead of our usual news panel, I’ve invited some of my very favorite health policy thinkers, to cast the net a little wider, and talk about what’s happened to the health care system since we began the podcast in 2017 and what the future of health care might look like for the next, I don’t know, decade or so. So let me introduce our panel. We will put their full bios in the show notes. Otherwise, it would take our entire episode to talk about all that they have done. But it’s safe to say that these are not just some of the smartest people in health care, but also among the most accomplished, with experience making government health policy, private health policy, and, in two of the three cases, also practicing medicine. First up, we have Zeke Emanuel. He’s currently the vice provost for global initiatives and the co-director of the Healthcare Transformation Institute at the University of Pennsylvania. Hi, Zeke. Thanks for joining us.

Ezekiel Emanuel: Great. Wonderful to be here.

Rovner: Next, we have Jeff Goldsmith. He’s president of Health Futures, a health industry consulting firm and a longtime thinker, writer, and lecturer on all things health care — and, I must confess, one of the people who’s implanted many things in my head about what I think about health care. Thanks for joining us, Jeff.

Jeff Goldsmith: It’s a pleasure.

Rovner: Finally, we have Farzad Mostashari, who’s the founder and CEO of Aledade, a company that works with primary care physician practices that he modestly describes on his LinkedIn page as, quote, “helping independent practices save American health care. Thanks for coming, Farzad.

Mostashari: Pleasure to be here, Julie.

Rovner: So I want to divide this conversation into two main parts, roughly titled “Where We’ve Been” and “Where We’re Going,” and where we’ve been in this case means things that have happened since 2017, when the podcast began. For those of you who don’t remember, that was the first year of the Trump presidency, in the middle of the ultimately unsuccessful Republican effort to repeal and replace “Obamacare” and President Trump’s various executive decisions to try to undermine the Affordable Care Act in other ways. Anybody remember that fight over cost-sharing reductions? Let us please not recap that. So let us start not with cost sharing, but with the state of health care in 2017. I want to go around. What does each of you think is the biggest change in the health care system since 2017? Zeke, why don’t you start?

Emanuel: I think probably the biggest change is the growing dissatisfaction by every player in the system. I often say that if you remember back to 2010 — Farzad and I certainly remember, because of passage of the ACA — a lot of people were dissatisfied with the system. But frankly, the upper-middle-class hospitals were not dissatisfied with the system. And mostly the upper middle class could still call — get, you know, VIP care and make sure that they got their needs met. I don’t know anyone — anyone — in 2023 who is happy with the system; maybe there are a few people in the insurance industry who are for this very moment because their profits are higher. But everyone else, including every upper-middle-class and rich person I know, is pissed off and doesn’t think they’re getting good care and is just — doesn’t like the system. And I think that bespeaks very deep structural problems with our system. Different parts are actually doing fantastic, if you want to know the truth, in my opinion, like Farzad’s company giving great primary care, but the whole system sucks. And that I think is probably the biggest change. And again, it bespeaks burnout, it bespeaks payment problems, it bespeaks lots of other underlying problems.

Rovner: I feel like I know that that was growing leading up to the Affordable Care Act, how much the industry and everybody else just didn’t think the system was working, but I think it’s turning into anger. Jeff, what do you think is the biggest change since 2017?

Goldsmith: Well you know, for me, I guess the biggest surprise for me would be we finally got a “SuperMed.” You remember … [unintelligible] … thing about how we’re going to have 10 health systems that — you know, the entire country will be divided into 10 health systems. I think the biggest change has been the arrival of our first SuperMed, which is UnitedHealth Group. It’s doubled in size since 2016. It’s closing in on 3 billion a month in cash flow. So, I mean, I think we may not get another one, but we’ve certainly got one. And it’s on its way to being 10% of health care.

Rovner: And it’s very much — I mean, for people who don’t know — it’s very much more than an insurance company now.

Goldsmith: Yeah, it is. The insurance company is kind of a drag on earnings compared to several other pieces.

Rovner: Farzad, what do you think has changed most since 2017?

Mostashari: I remember in 2017, it really felt like UnitedHealth Group, what they were doing with Optum, was like a secret almost, and it certainly is not anymore. I think I would say covid happened, and one of the main things that has absolutely changed as a result of that is the availability of urgent virtual care. And pretty much all of us now — my mom, through her health system portal; my daughter, through her college portal; me, through my health plan portal — have access to basically hit a button and pretty quickly be able to see someone, usually a nurse practitioner, within a short amount of time. The consequences of that are going to be really interesting. I think, net, it is one of the few things that I think Zeke would agree is pleaser for people to be able to do that. But on the flip side of that, which is to be able to see a primary care doctor, for my parents, is three months out, and they’re 86 and they need to do it. So I think we’re seeing on the one hand, kind of a tale of two cities — like urgent, convenient care with someone who has no idea who you are is more available than ever, and longitudinal primary care with someone who has a long-term relationship with you is getting squeezed.

Rovner: I want to go around again. What’s the most unexpected change? And you don’t get to say the pandemic this time. Jeff, why don’t you start.

Goldsmith: Well, certainly the most unpleasant, unexpected change was the sudden flameout of Geisinger. That’s a really ominous development.

Rovner: Which we haven’t — we haven’t even talked about on the podcast yet. So you better give that a sentence or two.

Goldsmith: Well, Geisinger is — was — one of the elite multi-specialty clinics in the country. It was a follow-on to Mayo, 110-year-old, absolutely superb quality, and done everything in the integrated delivery system playbook. They had a large health plan. They had a widely distributed primary care network. They lost $840 million last year and were losing 20 million a month on operations — that’s arterial bleeding — and about six weeks ago announced a combination of some kind — don’t call it a merger — with Kaiser. It’s still not clear to me what they’ve done. But the big surprise to me was a $7 billion system that did everything you’re supposed to do ended up not being able to remain independent. That’s really scary to me.

Rovner: Yeah. Zeke, what surprised you the most?

Emanuel: I would say two things have surprised me the most. The first one was the fact that we got drug price regulation. Even that little bit we got, I think, very, very surprising. And I have to give credit to the administration. They’re using the small camel’s nose under the tent to really push it as big as they can, jawboning on insulin prices, etc. It’s far from ideal. You know, I’ve been as critical as anyone about the kind of compromises we had to make. But I think that we got something, and I think that’s really changed the psychology. So that would be one thing. The other thing, and here I may be attacked, is we’re still at 18% of GDP for health care spending. Predictions in 2010, even predictions in 2017, were to go over 20%. And we have actually — and it’s not because the economy has gone haywire on us; we’ve been growing at about 2% of GDP. Something is out there that is not as macro that has kept it — some of it’s high deductible, multifactorial. I do think that we also, you know, some of the things that Farzad mentioned, we’ve got virtual that is lower-cost. We do more home care. You know, hospital admissions continue to go down. Anyway, I do think that’s still a surprise. Now, people are feeling it because of high deductibles, because employers are transferring a lot more cost. Nonetheless, as a percent of GDP, it has remained flat for a decade.

Goldsmith: Right. It’ll be lower in ’22 than it was in ’21 when we finally get the numbers out.

Rovner: Farzad.

Mostashari: I want to continue on a little bit. It’s so easy to be pessimistic in health care and health policy. But again, some things that were a little bit — if you are so jaded and so scarred that you have very low expectations, even small victories, like Zeke said, end up being surprises to the upside. So I was surprised to the upside that the Trump administration, despite a lot of — you mentioned, a lot of efforts to undo the Affordable Care Act — were actually pretty good on value-based care and pretty good on turning attention to administrative simplification and to site-neutral payments and thinking about competition in health care markets. And those are obviously, all three of those, are things that the current administration’s support and is also continuing to push. So that was a pleasant surprise, I guess, to the to the upside.

Rovner: Also price transparency, right?

Mostashari: Yeah, I put that in the competition category. The other surprise is, for a long time — I spoke at a pharma group once, a bunch of CEOs, and I said, “Name me the drug that if I use more of it, there will be fewer hospitalizations.” And they kind of drew a blank, and they were like, “Well, vaccines?” And I was like, “OK, that’s pretty sad, right?” But now we actually have SGLT-2s, we have GLP-1s, like there’s actually a bunch of drugs that are going to be, I think, rightfully blockbusters that actually are making a big difference. And I think, in particular, the SGLT-2s I’m really excited about. They’re massively underutilized and I think —

Rovner: What are the SGLT-2s?

Mostashari: Zeke, you want to take this?

Emanuel: No, no, that’s you.

Mostashari: It’s a drug class that has proven to be pretty effective at reducing hospitalizations for people with congestive heart failure, with diabetes. And the more it’s studied, like — there’s a trend in pharma, right, or really anything, that, not what’s the first study with a second randomized trial, but what’s the fifth and sixth and seventh? Do they end up making the evidence stronger or reverting to the mean? And with these drug classes, they seem to be getting stronger and stronger and stronger and more and more generalized in terms of the potential benefit that they can bring. They’re expensive. But I remember a time when a lot of the drugs that are now generic were expensive. So if we take the long arc on this, I think this is going to be very good for health care.

Emanuel: Well, also, to the extent that they preempt hospitalizations, their cost-effectiveness — I don’t know what it is; I haven’t looked it up recently — but the cost-effectiveness is more reasonable, let us put it, than many other drugs that we get, particularly cancer drugs … [unintelligible].

Goldsmith: You know, there’s an even bigger one lurking out there if you’re talking about reducing hospitalizations, and that is the likelihood that we’ll have a dialysis-like solution for sepsis. There are a whole bunch of companies in this space. They’re attaching different molecules to the fibers. But we began seeing during covid, using some of these tools to take virus out of the blood, sepsis is a huge chunk of hospital utilization. It’s a huge chunk of expensive hospital utilization. And what, a third of the deaths, at least — if we could dialyze someone out of sepsis, I mean, it would be an enormous plus, both for health spending and for people’s lives.

Emanuel: I was just going to add one political element to what Farzad said first about the Trump administration, and this gets to how policy is made and the importance of personalities and people. There’s a whole school of history that people don’t matter, the blah, blah, blah. But the Trump administration’s interest in these various things, like price transparency, competition, site-neutral payments, and such, occurred only after they fired Secretary [of Health and Human Services Tom] Price. Secretary Price was sort of a health policy Neanderthal in that he wanted to go back to the 1950s. Many of your listeners will remember he greatly reduced their bundled payment experiments and randomized controlled trial by chopping it in, I think, half, or getting rid of a lot of places. He was totally for the old fee-for-service system, as an orthopedic surgeon, and I think once they got rid of him, actually the focus on, you know, how can we make this a better marketplace, which brings you, you know, not everything liberals can agree on that because many of the things go in, regulate prices and regulate access. And it’s an interesting thing. He had to be moved out for that change to actually happen.

Mostashari: But I’ll also say, though, putting political philosophy back in, not just personality, you look at what’s happening in Indiana, of all places, Zeke, where the legislature have been, I think, pretty forward on on some really great health policy stuff around, again, competition policy, noncompetes for doctors, certificate of need — like a whole bunch of stuff that have been anti-competitive, hospital price increasers they have taken square aim at. And I think that it aligns with like, if we’re going to have a market, like either we’re going to regulate really heavily, or we’re going to have a market-based approach that actually works, and you can’t have a market-based approach that works even a little if you have basically anti-competitive behaviors. So I think it actually does make sense.

Rovner: While we are on the subject of politics, the thing that I think most surprised me in the last seven years is that the pandemic did not convince everybody of the need for everybody to have some kind of health coverage. At the beginning, I thought, well, this is what’s going to get us to a national health plan, because everybody can get sick. And that didn’t happen. In fact, it feels like things got even more polarized. Did that surprise any of you guys or am I just being naive?

Goldsmith: We did get to a 91-million-person Medicaid program and a significant expansion of the exchanges. So it’s not like there wasn’t a realization that covering people had a salutary effect on the overall health of the population. It’s not clear that it lasted. I heard Sarah Huckabee Sanders on the radio the other day saying that throwing a bunch of people off of Medicaid was going to be liberating them from dependency. That was one of the most amazing Orwellian statements I’ve ever heard in my life. But it’s —

Emanuel: She thought if we got rid of her health insurance, it would liberate her from dependency?

Goldsmith: Oh, absolutely.

Mostashari: I do think that one of the things that took away that stink, though, Julie, was really pretty expansive and brave government action that made tests free, that made vaccines free, that made treatment, including monoclonals, free. If the concern was specifically the driver around covid, these programs that — 100% paid, regardless of your ability to pay, just like covered it at all, right? — I do think took away some of the drive that you were describing.

Rovner: And yet we’re peeling them all back one by one, you know, including —

Emanuel: Well, they were all emergency. I mean, all they have expansion was emergency. And, you know, that has to do with the way Washington budgets and all of that. I do think if we’re going to get to universal coverage, we’re going to have to get it in a way that keeps the costs under control. My own interpretation is we’ve reached the limit, and 18% is the limit. And if you want to get to 100% universal coverage, I can’t —

Mostashari: Oh, God, I can’t believe he just jinxed us like that.

Emanuel: I think that’s what the political economy says.

Rovner: You mean 18% of GDP?

Emanuel: Yeah. Yeah.

Goldsmith: But, Zeke, people are saying that when we got to 8, we were going to hit the wall. OK, you have a long enough memory, I mean —

Emanuel: I do, I do have that memory. But I do think you have seen more drastic action, as when things have gone up by employers to make it look less and less like insurance, frankly. And I do think that tells you where the limit is. And I think we’re going to have to think within that. And one of the things we have to do is be much more serious about areas where we have good evidence about cost savings. And we just haven’t done that. And for the last decade, every hospital — and I always talk about cost — but it’s a lot easier to negotiate higher rates from commercial than it is to actually be more efficient. And so what do they do? Focus on negotiating higher rates and have much more brains focusing on that than doing the time-motion studies to get efficient. Until they are forced, they’re not going to do that kind of efficiency. And that’s the thing. And you can’t do it on a dime. That’s the other thing, I think, partially that the Geisinger says: You can’t do the efficiency on a dime.

Goldsmith: Isn’t losing $20 million a month sort of a goad to action? I mean —

Emanuel: Well, Jeff, Jeff, here’s the question. I agree. But it couldn’t induce Geisinger to change fast enough. I mean, they didn’t have enough runway. If they were losing, that’s the first thing. And whether other hospitals and health systems are going to say, “Well, we have to get serious today,” I don’t know. I’m not privileged to their internal deliberations. I will say that, over the last decade, they’ve just continued the old playbook, as I’ve argued.

Mostashari: But I think that’s right, Zeke. But that’s what doesn’t give me hope in terms of your 18% political economy ceiling, because who’s going to make it, you know, like — and I don’t see the employers. I’d say if there’s one thing where there hasn’t been much change has been the employers continue to disappoint.

Rovner: Actually, Farzad, you’ve walked right into my next question, because I want to pivot to what’s going to happen, which is, who’s going to drive the health care train for the next decade?

Emanuel: I think employers are brain-dead on this. They are the worst part of the legion because they control all the profit and they have been terrible. They have chased very short-term profits or very short-term savings. What? Yeah, I know, I, well no, but —

Rovner: Farzad, Farzad’s making air quotes.

Emanuel: Farzad’s making the quotes, but absolutely it’s not been savings, but they’ve been listening to consultants who sold them a bill of goods and they haven’t been serious. And you know, to be honest, when you get something like Haven and you’ve got companies like J.P. Morgan and Amazon and Berkshire Hathaway making a hash of it, “What could I do?” is I think the response, and what they have to do is they have to get together and get out of health care in a responsible way, and that they are — they just, they can’t focus enough mind share on it.

Rovner: Even with, what was it, Amazon and J.P. Morgan? And I forget what the third one was.

Goldsmith: But Zeke, you know, right now the most profitable service line for those insurers isn’t commercial insurance; it’s Medicare Advantage

Emanuel: Yeah.

Goldsmith: And if I were to be a forecasting person, which I tend to do sometimes —

Emanuel: You are?

Goldsmith: I think, I think the profit is rapidly disappearing from commercial insurance, not only because more and more insurers are self-funded, or employers are self-funded and taking themselves out of the equation, but because the government can’t say no to its contractors — state governments, federal government. So I’m actually very concerned about the disappearance of the lever that commercial insurance represented in the emergence of a kind of a rent-seeking health insurance system.

Mostashari: That underscores the need, if more and more employers are self-insured, then they’re going to need to act. They can’t rely on the insurer; they need to demand something different than what they’ve been demanding from the TPAs [third-party administrators]. And I think that’s the opportunity, if I was going to be an optimist. I think that’s the opportunity. To Zeke’s point, from the beginning, everyone is unhappy. And if someone did come up with a TPA that promised cost corridors, as an example, more predictability, free stop loss, you know, like those kind of things and actually delivered slower trend, guaranteed lower trend on your rates. I think there’s room for that, but as Zeke said, not if they just keep listening to the same consultants.

Goldsmith: But Farzad, what seems to me has held them back is that their interest in health benefits cost is cyclical. When they’re awash in cash, they’re mainly interested in more cash; they’re not interested in tuning their health benefit and chasing away scarce workers. And right now, that scarcity of workers is one of the things that’s holding employers back from tightening down or fundamentally changing the logic of their health coverage — is that they are competing, particularly in the skilled part of our economy, for workers that they’re really having trouble getting. And to walk in the door and saying, “Well, we’re going to place all these conditions on, and we’re going to make you do X, Y, and Z,” they’re not going to do it.

Mostashari: I think the TPA 2.0, though — I agree with you that there’s typically been a zero-sum game around this between the employer and employee when it comes to less benefits, higher copays, higher deductibles, like, you’re taking something away from them. But you mentioned Medicare Advantage. What I think the promise has been there is you get more; the member gets more access to primary care or more benefits but for the same cost. And I agree with your facial expression there that our —

Goldsmith: I’m on Medicare Advantage. I mean, it’s just been a great big whoop. The main user experience has been robocalls, and I get about one every two months to send a nurse to my house to upcode me. That’s my Medicare Advantage experience. Big whoop.

Emanuel: So let me just say two things, one of which is I think the fact is that employers don’t have to go down the punitive route to have lower costs; they could focus on the provider and reorganize that system. And the problem of everyone in the system is just thinking about how do I screw the other provider, right? You know, how do I make doctors go through all this prior authorization so they won’t order that drug or they won’t order that MRI? That’s not a way to improve the system. That’s a way to make everyone pissed off.

Rovner: It’s doing a very good job at that.

Emanuel: Yeah, including the patient. Everyone hates it, and no one’s willing to get rid of it. I think Farzad is right; you need a total reconceptualization of how you’re going to deliver care so the answer is yes, not no. And what you get is better thinking so we’re more efficient and we get rid of the unnecessary stuff so that we can actually devote our time and attention and resources to people who need it. The second thing I would say, Jeff, is I think the wallowing and, and getting all the cream from Medicare Advantage is going to come to an end. I think the administration has sort of — you know, when you’re over 50% of the people and there’s all these articles coming out over and over again, you — I mean one of the things they haven’t realized — you end up in Washington putting a big target on your face. And Washington likes nothing more than, “These people are ripping off the government, and now we’re going to penalize them.” And I will say, you know, personally, we’ve started a very large project to try to fix the risk adjustment mechanism. We also need a large project, in my humble opinion, on fixing the fee structure, which is totally perverted.

Rovner: The fee structure for everybody or the fee structure for Medicare?

Emanuel: Well, if you fix it for Medicare, you’re going to fix it for everyone since they take Medicare prices and just inflate ’em. But I think those two things are going to happen, actually, if I had to say, over the next decade, and I do think the days of just getting tons of profit from Medicare Advantage are numbered.

Goldsmith: Well, but the way that’s going to work is, to sustain the 5% and to prevent their stock prices from falling, they’re going to come after providers hammer and tongs.

Rovner: They [being] the insurers, the Medicare Advantage companies.

Goldsmith: They’re just going to cut the rates. They’re not going to really, fundamentally — they’re not going to shift risks, Zeke. They’re not going to capitate them; they’re just going to cut the rates. So I think part of the dynamic there is you’re going to have the hospital folks kind of behind the scenes going, “Don’t cut Medicare Advantage, because we’re the people that are eventually going to bleed for it.” So I think the politics of doing this is actually a whole lot more complicated. You’re dead right; the mask is dropped. There’s a lot of games being played. But fixing it is going to be really hard politically.

Emanuel: Jeff, I agree with you. I think one of the major issues hospitals have to do — look, during covid, one of the tragedies is the government handed out $70 billion to hospitals and asked nothing in return. There was no, “Change this,” “focus on —”

Goldsmith: They asked them to stay open, Zeke They asked them to stay open 24/7 and to, you know, have their emergency room burn out and to suspend their elective care. What do you mean they didn’t ask them to do anything? They had to do those things to respond to the, the pandemic. Now, you’re saying you didn’t attach additional conditions about efficiency. Dead right, they didn’t.

Emanuel: Yeah.

Goldsmith: You’re right.

Emanuel: There was no structural change. $70 billion is a whole lot of money. And we ask no structural change for it. So we’re actually in a worse situation with hospitals today than we were before. And $70 went out the window.

Rovner: 70 billion.

Mostashari: Zeke and I first met when I was at the White House, the NEC [National Economic Council] or something, and we were arguing about $28 billion to take health care from paper and pen to electronic health records. And it seemed like a lot of money, 28 billion, to digitize American health care and, as Zeke is saying, 70 billion went out the door.

Goldsmith: Well, but, but remember what was going on. There was an authentic, bottomless national emergency. And we ended up throwing $6 trillion, $6 trillion, forget about 70 billion. We ended up throwing $6 trillion worth of money that we borrowed from our grandkids at that bottomless problem — not only covid, but the economic catastrophe that covid produced, the flash depression that the shutdowns produced. So there wasn’t a lot of time for fine-tuning the policy message here; it was shovel it out the door and pray.

Emanuel: Jeff, I agree. We had to rescue a very desperate situation. But it’s not as if the last decade hadn’t given us plenty of things that we could have asked the hospitals to do. Unlike —look, look, in 2009, when we were crafting the Affordable Care Act, I called around to everyone. I said, “All right, we got to change off fee-for-service to … [unintelligible]. What’s the best method to get doctors to do the right thing, to get standardized care, to reduce the inefficiencies,” blah, blah, blah. We hadn’t tried anything. 2021, 2020, we had actually better ideas about how we could implement change and actually make the system better. And we implemented … [unintelligible]. And that, I think, was a missed major opportunity.

Rovner: And actually that is sort of my next question. I want to bring this back to the patient. Zeke, you referred to this; the patient experience has gotten worse. We’ve heard it from everybody here. The more we can do to help people and cure them and treat their ailments, the more differentiated and diverse the system becomes and the much harder it is to navigate. I mean, is there any hope of doing something to improve the patient experience over maybe the next decade?

Goldsmith: Well, I’ll tell you. You asked Zeke; I got sick during 2015 to 2017. So after being a big expert on our health care system for 40 years, I actually used it: five major surgeries in 29 months. And my experience was very different than the picture you guys have been painting. Only three of the people that touched me were over the age of 40. That was a big difference. Getting rid of the boomers might help a lot, but I was astonished by the level of commitment and the team-based care that I got. They were all over it. It was really encouraging to me, scared to death though I was, that the level of service that I got — and I’m not an elite patient. I mean, in a couple of those instances, it was my local community hospital; it wasn’t the University of Chicago that was taking care of me. I was really pleasantly surprised by the level of teamwork and the commitment of the care teams that took care of me. It gave me hope that I didn’t have before.

Mostashari: And I think we always get into this when we start talking about organizations versus people, and the people — and there’s no one like the people in medicine, and they would do anything for their patients, they love their patients, and they’re trying to work against a system that structurally is against doing the right thing for the patient, that we know can help the patient. And there’s no doubt that once someone has a stroke, we spring into action. The question is, did that person have to have a stroke? How well are we doing at controlling blood pressure, Jeff? We suck at controlling blood pressure: 65% control rates. And we know that that’s going to prevent heart attacks and strokes. Once we — once someone has a heart attack, like, we will deliver excellent customer service to the person with a heart attack, and they will be grateful and they will say, “Doc, you saved my life,” but we won’t invest in allowing people to have Medicare to pay for blood pressure cuffs at home, right? Like, that’s what we are grappling with in health care and medicine, is that disjunct between the organizational incentives and delivery system that follows from it versus the dedication and the compassion of the people in it every day.

Emanuel: So, Julie, one of the things I would say over the next decade that we have to do, and here you have a specialist bowing to Farzad, which is we have to pay more for primary care. Right now, the system pays something like 7%. And in some markets like mine, in Philadelphia, it’s under 5%. It’s outrageously bad, that amount. We have to give primary care doctors more and expect more out of them. What do we have to expect? Chronic care coordination. The primary care doc ought to be your navigator, and we need to have them or someone in their practice, is the first line for mental health and behavioral health services, right? That kind of package, including, you know — and we could go on — extended office hours, etc., etc. That has to happen. And us specialists, my kind of folk, we need to be less. And I think that has got to be one of the shifts we make that will make the patient experience better; I think it’ll make the management of these chronic illnesses like hypertension — I’m completely on board with Farzad; that should be focus, focus, focus. I think that’s a critical change. And what gives me hope — again, I’m by nature a very optimistic person — what gives me hope is Farzad’s company and the 20 others in that space that are doing a bang-up job of primary care and showing that it can be done and it can be done well and cost-effectively and better for patients, and I think we have to embrace that. And one of the things that’s going to be critical is more value-based payments, changing the physician fee schedule, and things like that.

Goldsmith: Well, not to disagree at all that there’s an absurd pay gradient between primary care physicians and specialists, but think about why we have so many specialists in the first place and why they have so much political power and influence in our health policy environment. A lot of the young people that are coming out of medical training today are carrying 3 or 400 grand in debt. That is very different than Europe, where we’re not expecting people to bear this huge burden in going into medicine. Wouldn’t it be easier for people to go into primary care if they didn’t have to worry about the fact that if they go into primary care, they’re going to be 65 and on Medicare before those debts are paid off, and maybe not at all. So we’ve created some of this by how expensive medical education is, by how expensive general education is, for that matter. And we’re not going to do anything about that.

Emanuel: And the solution to that is trivial, right? It might be a $30 billion solution, which would be, you know, whatever — .07% tax on every dollar poured into a fund to fund education. It’s idiocy.

Goldsmith: But politically, Zeke, what you’re doing is giving $30 billion to the wealthiest professional group in the country. That’s the way it’s going to play politically. How are those folks in Alabama, you know, that are, they’re on Medicaid, going to view taking $30 billion and giving it to your kids or grandkids that want to be doctors?

Emanuel: I totally agree with you. It needs to be … [unintelligible].

Mostashari: I don’t disagree that there’s a big difference in cost of medical education here versus other countries. I do wonder, though, in that hypothetical where we make medical education free, if you still have the kind of disparities in pay between the anesthesiology and the surgeon and the primary care doc. I still think we’re — we would be in a place where primary care slots went unfilled this year.

Goldsmith: Not surprising.

Mostashari: Right.

Goldsmith: Not surprising at all.

Mostashari: And we have a big shortage. And, you know, we have urologists who employ 17 nurses and other people to increase the throughput of the practice, right? And a primary care capacity, a lot of that could be augmented. You don’t need necessarily to wait until we graduate a whole new crop of doctors. We could actually supplement our primary care capacity if there was more money in primary care. And as Zeke says, I don’t mean just increasing the fee schedule or just paying more, although that would be nice, but tying it to outcomes that actually make it so that we can pay more for primary care in a way that’s budget-neutral.

Emanuel: But it’s a crazy thing because all we would have to do is spend 3% more of total medical spending on primary care. And guess what? You’d increase their revenue 50%. And that would, Farzad’s — that would make — that would be transformative. And you could get that 3%, you know, 1½ from hospitals, from specialists, from other, and they would barely — well, … [unintelligible] … hospitals might notice. But in general, it wouldn’t be a tragedy to any other part of the system. And that’s the insanity of where we’re at. And as Jeff, I think correctly, points out, is, you know, the political optics of this and the political power of these various different groups going to marshal against it — I mean, you could take 1% of it from pharma, easy, maybe even 2% from pharma, easy. The thing which makes me pessimistic now — I was optimistic, now pessimistic — the thing which makes me pessimistic is the sclerosis which makes these kind of structural changes impossible, and that’s basically interest group politics. And it doesn’t cost much. That’s what’s crazy. You know, United can spend $1 billion a year running ads against various congresspeople to keep its position, and its profit margin wouldn’t be affected.

Rovner: All right. We can go on all day. I would love to go on all day, but I know you guys have places to get, so I want to ask one last question of each of you. If there’s one piece of low-hanging fruit that we could accomplish to, I won’t say fix the health care system, but to make it better over the next decade, what would it be? If you could wave a wand and just change one small part of the system?

Goldsmith: We need a Medicare formulary. I’m sorry, we need a Medicare formulary, and we need to basically put a bullet in the PBM [pharmacy benefit manager] business on the way to doing it. That would be mine. And that would free up tens of billions of dollars that we could use to finance some of the stuff that Zeke and Farzad have been talking about.

Rovner: I think that may be the one thing that Congress is actively looking at, so —

Goldsmith: We’ll see how far they get.

Rovner: Yeah. Farzad.

Mostashari: I think we talked about it: competition. I think there’s a — there needs to be a coordinated government regulatory, DOJ [Department of Justice], [Department of] Commerce, CMS [Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services] response to competition policy — FTC [Federal Trade Commission], obviously — that looks at all the different issues: the payment policies that are digging the hole deeper, like site-neutral payments. I think you need to look at the nonprofit hospitals and which jurisdiction applies to them. I think you need to look at transparency. I think you need to look at transparency around ownership of physician practices. I think there needs to be noncompetes. I think there needs to be a whole set of things that tilt the field towards more competition in health care markets, because if you are big and have, you know, the will to use that market power to say all-or-none contracting, no tiering, no steering, no — none of that, right — then there’s just no purchase for any health care payment or delivery reforms, because you’re big and fat and happy and you don’t care.

Rovner: And you’re making your shareholders happy. Zeke.

Emanuel: Let me give one clinical and one that’s more policy. So the clinical is, Farzad already mentioned it, if we would focus on controlling blood pressure well in this country. We’ve got more than a hundred guidelines, you’ve got cheap, 200 drugs for this. It would both improve longevity, decrease morbidity, and reduce disparities, that single thing. And Farzad is the one who turned me on. I know exactly the place on our walks that he put the bug in my ear about it. We should be focused on that because, among other things, it’s a huge producer of disparities between Blacks and whites in terms of renal failure, blah, blah, blah. The one policy thing I think is we know we spend a trillion dollars on administration. It’s a ludicrous amount of money. We know what the solutions are, and a lot of them don’t require that much policy. What we need is someone in the federal government whose job it is to wake up every day and get that money going. Now, the federal government wouldn’t make that much of it, by the way. That’s one of the reasons the federal government hasn’t taken this on, because they do have standardized billing and blah, blah, blah. But everyone agrees that’s a ridiculous amount of money and it’s producing no health benefit. If anything, it’s producing stress, which is not a good thing. And I think the conservative estimates by David Cutler and Nikhil [Sahni] are, you know, we’re talking $250 billion. I mean, that’s real, real money. And it’s no health benefit, and no one likes that stuff. And a lot of it’s about gaming. And so I think that’s a place — and you’d, again, have to put some serious government backbone, including threats, behind it. But I think that’s free money.

Rovner: Well, we will see if any of this happens. I could go on all afternoon, but I promised I would let you all get back to your day jobs. As always, if you enjoy the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left us a review; that helps other people find us, too. Special thanks, as always, to our ever-patient producer, Francis Ying, for helping gather all of this together. As always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org. Or you can tweet me. I’m @jrovner. We will be back in your feed next week. Until then, be healthy.

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Julie Rovner is chief Washington correspondent and host of KFF Health News’ weekly health policy news podcast, “What the Health?” A noted expert on health policy issues, Julie is the author of the critically praised reference book “Health Care Politics and Policy A to Z,” now in its third edition.

How should journalists cover political candidates who make false claims about the safety and effectiveness of vaccines? That question will need to be answered now that noted anti-vaccine activist Robert F. Kennedy Jr. has officially entered the 2024 presidential race.

Meanwhile, South Carolina has become one of the last states in the South to pass an abortion ban, making the procedure all but impossible to obtain for women across a broad swath of the country.

This week’s panelists are Julie Rovner of KFF Health News, Alice Miranda Ollstein of Politico, Rachel Cohrs of Stat, and Sarah Karlin-Smith of the Pink Sheet.

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Rachel Cohrs
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Sarah Karlin-Smith
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Alice Miranda Ollstein
Politico

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Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:

• Republican lawmakers and President Joe Biden continue to bargain over a deal to avert a debt ceiling collapse. Unspent pandemic funding is on the negotiating table, as the White House pushes to protect money for vaccine development — though the administration has drawn criticism for a lack of transparency over what would be included in a clawback of unspent dollars.
• In abortion news, South Carolina is the latest state to vote to restrict access to abortion, passing legislation this week that would ban abortion after six weeks of pregnancy — shortly after pregnant people miss their first period. And Texas is seeing more legal challenges to the state law’s exceptions to protect a mother’s life, as cases increasingly show that many doctors are erring on the side of not providing care to avoid criminal and professional liability.
• Congress is scrutinizing the role of group purchasing organizations in drug pricing as more is revealed about how pharmacy benefit managers negotiate discounts. So-called GPOs offer health care organizations, like hospitals, the ability to work together to leverage market power and negotiate better deals from suppliers.
• Lawmakers are also exploring changes to the way Medicare pays for the same care performed in a doctor’s office versus a hospital setting. Currently, providers can charge more in a hospital setting, but some members of Congress want to end that discrepancy — and potentially save the government billions.
• And our panel of health journalists discusses an important question after a prominent anti-vaccine activist entered the presidential race last month: How do you responsibly cover a candidate who promotes conspiracy theories? The answer may be found in a “truth sandwich.”

Also this week, Rovner interviews KFF Health News senior correspondent Aneri Pattani about her project to track the money from the national opioid settlement.

Plus, for “extra credit,” the panelists suggest health policy stories they read this week that they think you should read, too:

Julie Rovner: KFF Health News’ “Remote Work: An Underestimated Benefit for Family Caregivers,” by Joanne Kenen

Alice Miranda Ollstein: Reuters’ “How Doctors Buy Their Way out of Trouble,” by Michael Berens

Rachel Cohrs: ProPublica’s “In the ‘Wild West’ of Outpatient Vascular Care, Doctors Can Reap Huge Payments as Patients Risk Life and Limb,” by Annie Waldman

Sarah Karlin-Smith: The New York Times’ “Heat Wave and Blackout Would Send Half of Phoenix to E.R., Study Says,” by Michael Levenson

Also mentioned in this week’s episode:

• KFF Health News’ “Abortion Bans Are Driving Off Doctors and Closing Clinics, Putting Basic Health Care at Risk,” by Julie Rovner.
• Stat’s “House Panel Takes First Steps Toward Reining In Hospitals With ‘Site-Neutral’ Changes,” by Rachel Cohrs.
• Vice’s “ABC News and CNN Manage to Demonstrate Exactly What Not to Do With Robert F. Kennedy Jr.,” by Anna Merlan.

click to open the transcript

Transcript: When an Anti-Vaccine Activist Runs for President

KFF Health News’ ‘What the Health?’

Episode Title: When an Anti-Vaccine Activist Runs for President

Episode Number: 299

Published: May 25, 2023

[Editor’s note: This transcript, generated using transcription software, has been edited for style and clarity.]

Julie Rovner: Hello and welcome back to “What the Health?”. I’m Julie Rovner, chief Washington correspondent at KFF Health News. And I’m joined by some of the best and smartest health reporters in Washington. We’re taping this week on Thursday, May 25, at 10 a.m. As always, news happens fast and things might have changed by the time you hear this. So here we go. Today we are joined via video conference by Rachel Cohrs of Stat News.

Rachel Cohrs: Hi, everybody.

Rovner: Sarah Karlin-Smith of the Pink Sheet.

Sarah Karlin-Smith: Hi, Julie.

Rovner: And Alice Miranda Ollstein of Politico.

Alice Miranda Ollstein: Hello.

Rovner: Later in this episode we’ll have my interview with KFF Health News’ Aneri Pattani about her project tracking where all of that opioid settlement money is going. But first, this week’s news. I suppose we have to start with the debt ceiling again, because how this all eventually plays out will likely impact everything else that happens in Washington for the rest of the year. First of all, as of this taping, at 10 o’clock on Thursday morning, there’s still no settlement here, right?

Ollstein: There is not. And depending who you listen to, we are either close or not close at all, on the brink of disaster or on the brink of being all saved from disaster. There’s a lot of competing narratives going around. But yes, as of this taping, no solution.

Rovner: I want to do a spreadsheet of how often the principals come out and say, “It was productive,” “It’s falling apart,” “It was productive,” “It’s falling apart.” I mean, it seems like literally every other time, particularly when Speaker [Kevin] McCarthy comes out, it was either “very productive” or “we’re nowhere near.” That seems to have been the gist for the past two weeks or so. Meanwhile, it seems like one thing Republicans and Democrats have at least tentatively agreed to do is claw back something like $30 billion in unspent covid funds. But, not so fast. The New York Times reports that the Biden administration wants to preserve $5 billion of that to fund the next generation of covid vaccines and treatment and another $1 billion to continue giving free covid vaccines to people without insurance. I feel like this is the perfect microcosm of why these talks are almost impossible to finish. They’re trying to negotiate a budget resolution, an omnibus spending bill, and a reconciliation bill all at the same time, with the sword of Damocles hanging over their head and a long holiday weekend in between. Somebody please tell me that I’m wrong about this.

Ollstein: Well, Congress never does anything unless there’s a sword of Damocles hanging over them and a vacation coming up that they really want to go on. I mean, do they ever make it happen otherwise? Not — not in our experience. But I do want to note that it is interesting that the Biden administration is trying to fight for some of that covid funding. Meanwhile, what they’re not reportedly fighting for is some of the other public health funding that’s at risk in that clawback, and I reported last week that some of Biden’s own health officials are warning that losing those tens of billions of dollars could undermine other public health efforts, including the fight against HIV and STDs [sexually transmitted diseases]. We have syphilis at record rates right now, and public health departments all around the country are counting on that money to preserve their workforces and do contact tracing, etc. And so that is another piece of this that isn’t getting as much attention.

Cohrs: There has been this ongoing fight between the White House and Republicans over covid money and how it’s being spent, for years at this point. And the White House has never really been fully transparent about exactly what was going to get clawed back. The Appropriations Committee was the one who actually put out some real information about this. And I think that trust has just been broken that the money is used where it’s supposed to be. I mean, even for the next-generation research project [Project NextGen] — I mean, they launched that like a couple of months ago, after Republicans had already threatened to take the money back. So I think there are some questions about the timing of the funding. [White House COVID-19 Response Coordinator] Ashish Jha said they didn’t know they had leftovers until recently, but I think this has just really turned into a mess for the White House, and I think the fact that they’re willing to offer some of this money up is just kind of a symbol and just a “ending with a whimper” of this whole fight that’s been going on for two years where they’ve been unsuccessful in extracting any more money.

Rovner: And yeah, I was just going to say, the White House keeps asking for more money and then they keep, quote-unquote, “finding money” to do things that are really important. Sarah, I wanted to ask you, how freaked out is the research establishment and the drug industry at whether, you know, will they or won’t they actually pony up money here?

Karlin-Smith: I think this could be pretty problematic because some of the type of companies that get this funding — some of them might be in a position to do this on their own, but others would essentially — you know, there isn’t necessarily a market for this without the government support, and that’s why they do it. That’s why the U.S. created this BARDA [Biomedical Advanced Research and Development Authority], which kind of funds this type of pandemic and other threats research. And so I think there are companies that definitely wouldn’t be able to continue without this money, because some of it is for things that we think we might need but don’t know if we definitely will. And so you don’t necessarily want to make the investment in the same way you know you need cancer drugs or something like that.

Rovner: We will see how this plays out. Perhaps it will be played out by next week or perhaps they will find some sort of short-term patch, which is another tried-and-true favorite for Congress. All right. Let’s turn to abortion. Last week, the North Carolina Legislature overrode the Democratic governor’s veto to pass a 12-week ban. This week was the South Carolina Legislature’s chance to say, “Hold my beer.” Alice, what happened in South Carolina, and what does it mean for availability of abortion in the whole rest of the South?

Ollstein: The governor is expected to sign this new restriction into law. Like many other GOP-led states. South Carolina was expected to quickly pass restrictions last year as soon as Roe v. Wade was overturned, but they got into fights within the Republican Party over how far to go, whether to have exceptions, what kind of exceptions, etc. It was the classic story we’ve seen play out over and over and over where, while Roe v. Wade was still in place, it was very easy for people to say, “I’m pro-life, I’m against abortion,” and not have to make those difficult, detailed decisions. So, yes, this could have a big impact, you know, especially with Florida moving for a much stricter ban. You know, the whole region is becoming more and more unavailable, and people are going to have to travel further and further.

Rovner: And South Carolina ended up with one of these six-week, quote-unquote, “heartbeat bills,” right?

Ollstein: That’s right.

Rovner: So it’s sort of shutting off yet another state where abortion is or really could be available. There’s more abortion-related court action, too. This week, in Texas, eight more women who experienced dangerous pregnancy complications joined a lawsuit seeking to force just a clarification of that state’s abortion ban that they say threatened their lives. One of them, Kiersten Hogan, had her water break prematurely, putting her at risk of infection and death, but says she was told by the hospital that if she tried to leave to seek care elsewhere, she could be arrested for trying to kill her baby. Four days later, the baby was born stillborn. Yet sponsors of the state’s abortion bill say it was never intended to bar, quote, “medically necessary abortions.” Why is there such a disconnect? And Texas is hardly the only place this is happening, right?

Ollstein: Yeah. Situations like this are why people are arguing that the whole debate over exceptions is sort of a fig leaf. It’s papering over how these work in practice. You can have exceptions on the book that say “life-threatening situations, medical emergencies,” etc. But because doctors are so afraid of being charged with a crime or losing their license or other professional repercussions, that’s just creating a huge chilling effect and making them afraid to provide care in these situations. A lot of times the state law also contradicts with federal law when it comes to medical emergencies, and so doctors feel caught in the middle and unsure what they’re supposed to do. And as we’re seeing, a lot of them are erring on the side of not providing care rather than providing care. So this is playing out in a lot of places. So I’m interested to see if this informs the debate in other states about whether to have these exceptions or not.

Rovner: And I get to promote my own story here, which is that we’re seeing in a lot of states either doctors leaving or doctors deciding not to train in states with abortion bans because they’re afraid of exactly those restrictions that could land them, you know, either in court or, even worse, in jail. We’ve long had abortion care deserts. Now we could see entire women’s health care deserts in a lot of these states, which would, you know, hurt not just the people who want to have abortions, but the people who want to get pregnant and have babies. We will continue to watch that space. Well, meanwhile, in West Virginia, another court case, filed by the maker of the generic version of the abortion pill mifepristone, could turn on a recent Supreme Court decision about pork products in California. Can somebody explain what one has to do with the other?

Karlin-Smith: There is basically a ruling that the Supreme Court issued the other week in a California case where the state was regulating how pigs were treated on farms in California. And the court basically allowed the law to stand, saying, you know, it didn’t interfere with interstate commerce. And the people who are protesting GenBioPro’s suit in West Virginia are basically saying that this, again, is an example where West Virginia’s regulation of the abortion drug, again, doesn’t really impact the distribution of the drug outside of the state or the availability of the drug outside of the state, and so this should be allowable. Of course, GenBioPro and the folks who are protesting how West Virginia is curtailing access to the suit are trying to argue the same ruling helps their cause. To me, what I read — and it seems like the comparison works better against the drug company, but it always is interesting to see this overlapping — you know, the cases you don’t expect. But I also, I think, when this ruling came out, saw somebody else making another argument that this should help GenBioPro. So it’s very hard to know.

Rovner: If it’s not confusing enough, I’m going to add another layer here: While we’re talking about the abortion pill, a group of House Democrats are reaching out to drug distribution company AmerisourceBergen, following reports that it would decline to deliver the pill to pharmacies in as many as 31 states, apparently fearing that they would be drawn into litigation between states and the federal government, the litigation we’ve talked about now a lot. So far, the company has only said that it will distribute the drug in states, quote, “where it is consistent with the law.” In the end, this could end up being more important than who wins these lawsuits, right? If — I think they’re the sole distributor — is not going to distribute it, then it’s not going to be available.

Ollstein: It also depends on the — at the 5th Circuit, and that will go back to the Supreme Court, because if it’s not an FDA-approved drug, then nobody can distribute it. That’s the ultimate controlling factor. But yes, since they are the sole distributor, they will have a lot of power over where this goes. And when I was reporting on Walgreens’ decision, they were pointing to this and saying that their decisions, you know, depend on other factors as well.

Karlin-Smith: And there’s a lot of nuance to this because my understanding is AmerisourceBergen, they’re particularly talking about distributing it to pharmacies where you could — under this new FDA permission to let pharmacies distribute the drug, which in the past they hadn’t.

Rovner: And which hasn’t happened yet.

Karlin-Smith: Right. They haven’t actually gone through the process of certifying the pharmacies. So it’s like a little bit premature, which is why I think Walgreens realized they probably jumped the gun on making any decision because it couldn’t happen yet anyway. But AmerisourceBergen is still saying, “Oh, we’re giving it to providers and other places that can distribute the drug in some of these states.” So it’s not necessarily like the drug is completely unavailable. It’s just about ease of access, I think, at this point.

Rovner: Yeah, we’re not just in “watch that space”; now we’ve progressed to “watch all those spaces,” which we will continue to do. Well, while we were on the discussion of drug middlepeople, there’s a story in Stat about the Federal Trade Commission widening its investigation of pharmacy benefit managers to include group purchasing organizations. Sarah, what are group purchasing organizations and how do they impact the price of prescription drugs?

Karlin-Smith: So group purchasing organizations are basically where you sort of pool your purchasing power to try and get better deals or discounts. So like, in this case, one of the GPOs FTC is looking at negotiates drug rebates on behalf of a number of different PBMs, not just one PBM. And so, again, you know, the idea is the more people you have, the more marketing you have, the better discount you should be able to get, which is — I think some people have been a little shocked by this because they’re like, “Wait, we thought the PBMs were the ones that did the negotiation. Why are they outsourcing this? Isn’t that the whole purpose of why they exist?” Yeah, so FTC has sort of a broader investigation into PBMs, so this is kind of the next step in it to kind of figure out, OK, what is the role of these companies? How are they potentially creating bad incentives, contributing to increased drug pricing, making it harder for people to perhaps, like, get their drug at particular pharmacies or more expensive at particular pharmacies? Again, because there’s been a lot of integration of ownership of these companies. So like the PBMs, the health insurance, some of these pharmacy systems are sort of all connected, and there’s a lot of concern that that’s led to incentives that are harming consumers and the prices we’re paying for our health care.

Rovner: Yeah, there’s all that money sloshing around that doesn’t seem to be getting either to the drug companies or to the consumers. Rachel, you wanted to add something?

Cohrs: Sure. I think GPOs are more used with hospitals when they buy drugs, because I think PBMs — you think of, like, going to pick up your drug at the pharmacy counter. But obviously hospitals are buying so many drugs, too. And their, you know, market power is pretty dispersed across the country. And so they also are a big customer of GPOs. So I think they’re also trying to get at this, like, different part of the drug market where, you know, a lot of these really expensive medications are administered in hospitals. So it will be interesting. They’re certainly not very transparent either. So, yeah, interesting development as to how they relate to PBMs, but also the rest of — you know, encompassing a larger part of the health care system.

Karlin-Smith: Yeah, I have seen complaints from hospital systems that the GPOs require them to enter into contracts that make it very difficult for the hospital to pivot if, say, the GPO can’t supply them with a particular product or maybe it’s … [unintelligible] … and then they end up stuck in a situation where they should, in theory, be able to get a product from another supplier and they can’t. So there’s lots of different levels of, again, concern about potential bad behavior.

Rovner: Well, while we are on the topic of nerdy practice-of-medicine stuff, Rachel, you had a story on the latest on the, quote, “site-neutral” Medicare payment policy. Remind us what that is and who’s on which side, and wasn’t that one of the bills — or I guess that wasn’t one of the bills that was approved by the House Energy and Commerce Committee yesterday, right?

Cohrs: No, so “site neutral” is basically hospitals’ worst nightmare. It essentially makes sure that Medicare is paying the same amount for a service that a doctor provides, whether it’s on a hospital campus or provided in a doctor’s office. And I think hospitals argue that they need to charge more because they have to be open 24/7. You know, they don’t have predictable hours. They have to serve anyone, you know, regardless of willingness to pay. It costs more overhead. That kind of thing. But I think lawmakers are kind of losing patience with that argument to some degree, that the government should be paying more for the same service at one location versus another. And it’s true that House Republicans had really wanted an aggressive form of this policy, and it could save like tens of billions of dollars. I mean, this is a really big offset we’re talking about here, if they go really aggressively toward this path, but instead they weren’t able to get Democrats on board with that plan yet. I think the chair, Cathy McMorris Rodgers, and the ranking member, Frank Pallone, have said they want to keep working on this. But what they did do this week is took a tiny little part out of that and advanced it through the committee. And it would equalize payment for, like, drug administration in physician’s offices versus a physician doing it in the hospital, and the savings to the federal government on that policy was roughly $3 billion. So, again, not a huge hit to industry, but it’s, you know, significant savings, certainly, and a first step in this direction as they think about how they want to do this, if they want to go bigger.

Rovner: So while we’re talking about the Energy and Commerce Committee, those members, in a fairly bipartisan fashion, are moving a bunch of other bills aimed at price transparency, value-based care, and a lot of other popular health buzzwords. Sarah, I know you watched, if not all, then most of yesterday’s markup. Anything in particular that we should be watching as it perhaps moves through the House and maybe the Senate?

Karlin-Smith: Yeah. So there was — probably the most contentious health bill that cleared yesterday was a provision that basically would codify a Trump-era rule in Medicaid that the Biden administration has sort of tweaked a bit but generally supported that basically tweaks Medicaid’s “best price” rule. So Medicaid is kind of guaranteed the best price that the private sector gets for drugs. But drugmakers have argued this prevents them from doing these unique value-based arrangements where we say, “OK, if the patient doesn’t perform well or the drug doesn’t work well for the patient, we’ll kind of give you maybe even all your money back.” Well, they don’t want the Medicaid best price to be zero. So they came up with a kind of a very confusing way to tweak that and also as part of that to, you know, hopefully allow Medicaid to maybe even take advantage of these programs. And Rep. [Brett] Guthrie [(R-Ky.)], Rep. [Anna] Eshoo [(D-Calif.)] on the Democratic side, want to codify that. But a number of the Democrats pushed back and over worries this might actually raise prices Medicaid pays for drugs and be a bit more problematic. And the argument from the Democrats, the majority of Democrats on the committee who oppose it, were not completely against this idea but let it play out in rulemaking, because if it stays in rulemaking, it’s a lot easier to —er, sorry — as a rule, it’s already made.

Rovner: To fix it if they need to.

Karlin-Smith: Right. It’s a lot easier to fix it, which, as anybody who follows health policy knows, it’s not actually as easy as you would think to fix a rule, but it’s definitely a lot easier to fix a rule than it is to fix something codified in law. So that’s sort of a very wonky but meaningful thing, I think, to how much drugs cost in Medicaid.

Rovner: Last nerdy thing, I promise, for this week: The Biden administration says it plans to conduct an annual audit of the cost of the most expensive drugs covered by Medicaid and make those prices public in what one of your colleagues, Alice, described as a “name and shame” operation? I mean, could this actually work, or could it end up like other HHS [Department of Health and Human Services] transparency rules, either not very followed or tied up in court?

Karlin-Smith: Experts that my colleague Cathy Kelly talked to to write about this basically were not particularly optimistic it would lead to big changes in savings to Medicaid, basically. One of the reasons is because Medicaid actually gets pretty good deals on drugs to begin with. But that said, even, again, like I said, they’re guaranteed these really large rebates are the best price. But in exchange for that, they have to cover all drugs. So that’s where you start to lose some of your leverage. So the hope with some of this extra transparency is they’ll get more information to have, like, a little bit of additional leverage to say, “Oh, well your manufacturing costs are only this, so you should be able to give us an additional rebate,” which they can negotiate that. Again, I think people think there’ll be sort of maybe some moderate, if any, benefits to that. But some states have actually tried similar things in kind of similar “name, shame” affordability boards. And the drugmakers have basically just said, “No, we’re not going to give you any more discounts.” And they’re kind of stuck.

Rovner: “And we’re not ashamed of the price that we’re charging.”

Karlin-Smith: Right.

Rovner: “Or we wouldn’t be charging it.”

Karlin-Smith: So it’s a tough one, but there’s, like, an argument to be made that drugmakers just don’t want to be on this list. So maybe some of them will more proactively figure out like how to get their price point and everything discounts to a point where they at least won’t get on the list. So maybe, again, it might tweak things around the edges, but it’s not a big price savings move.

Rovner: And we shall see. All right. Well, this is — finally this week, it’s something I’ve wanted to talk about for a couple of weeks. I’m calling it the “How do you solve a problem like RFK Jr.?” For those of you who don’t already know, the son of the former senator and liberal icon Robert Kennedy has declared his candidacy for president. He’s an environmental lawyer, but at the same time, he’s one of the most noted anti-vaxxers, not just in the country but in the world. Vice has a provocative story — this actually goes back a couple of weeks — about how the media should cover this candidacy or, more specifically, how it shouldn’t. According to the story, ABC did an interview with RFK Jr. and then simply cut out what they deemed the false vaccine claims that he made. CNN, on the other hand, did an interview and simply didn’t mention his anti-vaccine activism. I am honestly torn here about how should you cover someone running for president who traffics in conspiracy theories that you know are not true? I realize here I am now speaking of a wider — wider universe than just RFK Jr. But as a journalist, I mean, how do you handle things that — when they get repeated and you know them to be untrue, at least in the health care realm?

Karlin-Smith: I mean, I really like the thing that Vice mentioned, and I think maybe Jay Rosen, who’s a journalism professor at NYU [New York University], he might be the person that sort of coined this, I’m not sure — this, like, “truth sandwich” idea, where you make sure you sort of start with what is true, in the middle you put the sort of — this is what the false claim of X person — and then you go back to the truth. Because I think that really helps people grasp onto what’s true, versus a lot of times you see the coverage starts with the lie or the falsehood. And I think sometimes people might even just see that headline or just see the little bit of what’s correct and never make it to the truth. And I understand some of the decisions by the news outlets that decided not to air these segments and just didn’t want to deal with the topic. But then I guess I thought they did make a good point that then you let somebody like Kennedy say, “Oh, they’re suppressing me, they’re deliberately hiding this information.” So the Vice argument was that this truth sandwich idea kind of gets you in a better … [unintelligible]. And again, as journalists, our job is not to suppress what politicians are saying. People should know what these people claim, because that is what the positions they stand for. But it’s figuring out how to add the context and be able to, you know, in real time if you need to, fact-check it.

Rovner: I confess, over the years I have been guilty of the CNN thing of just not bringing it up and hoping it doesn’t come up. But then, I mean, it’s true, the worst-case scenario — probably not going to happen with somebody running for president — but I think we’ve discovered all these people running for lower offices, that they get elected, you don’t talk about the controversial things and then you discover that you have a legislator in office who literally believes that the Earth is flat. There are — can Google that. So if these things aren’t aired, then there’s no way for voters to know. Anybody else have a personal or organizational rule for how to handle this sort of stuff?

Ollstein: I think there can be smart decisions about when to let someone say in their own voice what they believe versus saying as the news organization, “In the speech, he spent X minutes advancing the discredited assertion of blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,” and not just handing over the platform for them to share the misinformation.

Rovner: Yeah, I just want the audience to know that we do think seriously about this stuff. We are not just as sort of blithe as some may believe. All right. Well, that is this week’s news. Now, we will play my interview with Aneri Pattani, and then we will come back with our extra credits. I am pleased to welcome back to the podcast my colleague Aneri Pattani, who is here to talk about her investigation into where those billions of dollars states are getting in pharmaceutical industry settlements for the opioid crisis are actually going. Aneri, I am so glad to have you back.

Aneri Pattani: Thanks so much for having me.

Rovner: So let’s start at the beginning. How much money are we talking about? Where’s it coming from, and where is it supposed to be going?

Pattani: So the money comes from companies that made, distributed, or sold opioid painkillers. So these are places like Purdue Pharma, AmerisourceBergen, Walgreens, and a bunch of others. They were all accused of aggressively marketing the pills and falsely claiming that they weren’t addictive. So thousands of states and cities sued those companies. And rather than go through with all the lawsuits, most of the companies settled. And as a result, they’ve agreed to pay out more than $50 billion over the next 15 or so years. And the money is meant to be used on opioid remediation, which is a term that means basically anything that addresses or fixes the current addiction crisis and helps to prevent future ones.

Rovner: So the fact is that many or most states — we don’t actually know where this money is going or will go in the future because that information isn’t being made public. How is that even legal, or, I guess it’s not public funds, but it’s funds that are being obtained by public entities, i.e., the attorneys general.

Pattani: Yeah, a lot of people feel this way. But the thing is, the national settlement agreements have very few requirements for states to publicly report how they use the money. In fact, the only thing that’s in there that they’re required to report is when they use money for non-opioid purposes. And that can be at most 15% of the total funds they’re getting. And that reporting, too, is on an honor system. So if a state doesn’t report anything, then the settlement administrators are supposed to assume that the state used all of its money on things related to the opioid crisis. Now, states and localities can enact stricter requirements. For example, North Carolina and Colorado are two places that have created these public dashboards that are supposed to show where the money goes, how much each county gets, how the county spends it. But honestly, the vast majority of states are not taking steps like that.

Rovner: So for people of a certain age, this all feels kind of familiar. In the late 1990s, a group of state attorneys general banded together and sued the tobacco companies for the harm their products had done to the public. They eventually reached a settlement that sent more than $200 billion to states over 25 years, so that money is only just now running out. But it didn’t all get used for tobacco cessation or even public health, did it?

Pattani: No. In fact, most of it didn’t get used for that. The Campaign for Tobacco-Free Kids, which has been tracking that tobacco settlement money for years, found that about only 3% of the money goes to anti-smoking programs a year. The rest of it has gone towards plugging state budget gaps, infrastructure projects like paving roads, or, in the case of North Carolina and South Carolina, the money even went to subsidizing tobacco farmers.

Rovner: Great. Given the lessons of the tobacco settlement, how do the attorneys general in this case try to make sure that wasn’t going to happen? I mean, was it just by requiring that that non-opioid-related money be made public?

Pattani: So they have added some specific language to the settlements that they point to as trying to avoid, you know, the, quote, “tobacco nightmare.” Essentially, the opioid settlements say that at least 85% of the money must be spent on opioid remediation. Again, that term — that’s like things that stop and prevent addiction. And there’s also a list included at the end of the settlement, called Exhibit E, with potential expenses that fall under opioid remediation. That’s things like paying for addiction treatment for people who don’t have insurance or building recovery housing or funding prevention programs in schools. But the thing is, that list is pretty broad and it’s nonexhaustive, so governments can choose to do things that aren’t on that list, too. So there are guidelines, but there’s not a lot of hard enforcement to make sure that the money is spent on these uses.

Rovner: So, as you’ve pointed out in your reporting, it’s not always simple to determine what is an appropriate or an inappropriate use of these settlement funds, particularly in places that have been so hard-hit by the opioid crisis and that it affects the entire economy of that state or county or city. So tell us what you found in Greene County, Tennessee. That was a good example, right?

Pattani: Yeah, Greene County is an interesting place. And what I learned is happening there is actually, you know, repeating in a lot of places across the country. So Greene County, it’s an Appalachian county, it’s been hard-hit. It has a higher rate of overdose deaths than the state of Tennessee overall or even the country. But when the county got several million dollars in opioid settlement funds, it first put that money towards paying off the county’s debt. And that included putting some money into their capital projects fund, which was then used to buy a pickup truck for the sheriff’s office. So a lot of folks are looking at that, saying, “That’s not really opioid-related.” But county officials said to me, you know, this use of the money makes sense, because the opioid epidemic has hurt their economy for decades; it’s taken people out of the workforce, it’s led to increased costs for their sheriff’s office and their jail with people committing addiction-related crimes, it’s hurt the tax base when people move out of the county. So now they need that money to pay themselves back. Of course, on the other hand, you have advocates and people affected by the crisis saying, “If we’re using all the money now to pay back old debts, then who’s addressing the current crisis? People are still dying of overdoses, and we need to be putting the opioid settlement money towards the current problem.”

Rovner: So I suppose ideally they could be doing both.

Pattani: I think that’s the hard thing. Although $54 billion sounds like a lot of money, it’s coming over a long period of time. And so at the end of the day, it’s not enough to fund every single thing people want, and there is a need for prioritization.

Rovner: So I know part of your project is helping urge local reporters to look into where money is being used in their communities. How is that going?

Pattani: It’s going well. I think it’s important because the money is not only going to state governments, but to counties and cities too. So local reporters can play a really big role in tracking that money and holding local officials accountable for how they use it. So I’m trying to help by sharing some of the national data sets we’re pulling together that can be used by local reporters. And I’ve also hopped on the phone with local reporters to talk about where they can go to talk to folks about this or finding story ideas. Some of the reporters I’ve spoken with have already published stories. There was one just a week ago in the Worcester Telegram from a student journalist, actually, in that area —

Rovner: Cool.

Pattani: — so there’s a lot of good coverage coming.

Rovner: I’m curious: What got you interested in pursuing this topic? I know you cover addiction, but this is the kind of reporting that can get really frustrating.

Pattani: It definitely can. But I think it’s what you said: As someone who’s been covering addiction and mental health issues for a while, kind of focusing on some of the problems and the systemic gaps, when I learned that this money was coming in, it was exciting to me too, like, maybe this money will be used to address the issues that I’m often reporting on, and so I want to follow that and I want to see if it delivers on that promise.

Rovner: So what else is coming up in this project? I assume it’s going to continue for a while.

Pattani: Yes. So this will be a yearlong project, maybe even more, because, as I said, the funds are coming for a long time. But essentially the next few things I’m looking at, I have a big data project looking at who sits on opioid settlement councils. These are groups that advise or direct the money in different states and, you know, may represent different interests. And then we’re going to be looking at some common themes in the ways different states are using this money. So a lot of them are putting it towards law enforcement agencies, a lot of them are putting them toward in-school prevention programs, and taking a look at what the research tells us about how effective these strategies are or aren’t.

Rovner: Well, Aneri Pattani, thank you so much, and we will post links to some of Aneri’s work on the podcast homepage at kffhealthnews.org and in this week’s show notes. Thanks again.

Pattani: Thank you so much.

Rovner: OK, we’re back and it’s time for our extra credit segment. That’s when we each recommend a story we read this week we think you should read too. As always, don’t worry if you miss it. We will post the links on the podcast page at kffhealthnews.org and in our show notes on your phone or other mobile device. Sarah, why don’t you go first this week?

Karlin-Smith: Sure. I looked at a piece in The New York Times called “Heat Wave and Blackout Would Send Half of Phoenix to E.R., Study Says,” by Michael Levenson. And it’s just really sort of a horrifying piece where researchers were sort of able to model the impact of the growing frequency of heat waves due to climate change, and obviously, the U.S. had some electric grid stability issues, and just the disconnect between the amount of hospital beds and people that would be able to care for people in a very hot city due to, you know, heat waves without being able to access air conditioning and other cooling methods. And the amount of people that would be hospitalized or die or just wouldn’t have a hospital bed. The one thing I did think was sort of positive is the piece does have some suggestions, and some of them are fairly simple that could really change the degrees in cities in relevant ways, like planting more trees in particular areas, and often this affects sort of — the poorest areas of cities tend to be the ones with less trees — or, you know, changing colors or the material on roofing. So as much as sometimes I think climate change becomes sort of such an overwhelming topic where you feel like you can’t solve it, I think the one nice thing here is it does sort of show, like, we have power to make the situation better.

Rovner: We can perhaps adapt. Alice.

Ollstein: I picked a upsetting piece but really good investigation from Reuters by Michael Berens. It’s called “How Doctors Buy Their Way out of Trouble.” It’s about doctors who are charged federally with all kinds of wrongdoing, including operating on patients who don’t need to be operated on for profit and having a pattern of doing so. And it’s about how often these cases settle with federal prosecutors and the settlement allows them to keep practicing, and the settlement money goes to the government, not to the victims. And often the victims aren’t even aware that the settlement took place at all. And new patients are not aware that the doctor they may be going to has been charged. And so it’s a really messed up system and I hope this shines a light on it.

Rovner: Rachel.

Cohrs: All right. So mine is from ProPublica, and the headline is, “In the ‘Wild West’ of Outpatient Vascular Care, Doctors Can Reap Huge Payments as Patients Risk Life and Limb,” by Annie Waldman. And I think I found this story timed really well kind of as lawmakers do start to talk a little bit more about incentives for patients to be seen in a hospital versus in more physician offices. And certainly there are cost reasons that that makes sense for some procedures. But I think this story does a really good job of kind of following one doctor, who I think, similar to kind of the story Alice was talking about, you know, was taking advantage of these inflated payments that were supposed to incentivize outpatient treatment to perform way more of these procedures than patients needed. And so I think it’s just important, a cautionary tale about the safeguards that could be necessary, you know, if more of this care is provided elsewhere.

Rovner: Yeah, I think these two stories are very good to be read together. My story this week is from our fellow podcast panelist Joanne Kenen for KFF Health News. It’s called “Remote Work: An Underestimated Benefit for Family Caregivers,” and it’s about how the U.S., still one of the few countries without any formal program for long-term care, that most of us will need at some point, has accidentally fallen into a way to make family caregiving just a little bit easier by letting caregivers do their regular jobs from home, either all the time or sometimes. While many, if not most, employers have policies around childbirth and child care, relatively few have benefits that make it easier for workers to care for other sick family members, even though a fifth of all U.S. workers are family caregivers. More flexible schedules can at least make that a little easier and possibly prevent workers from quitting so that they can provide care that’s needed. It’s no substitute for an actual national policy on long-term care, but it’s a start, even if an accidental one. OK, that is our show for this week. As always, if you enjoy the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left us a review; that helps other people find us, too. Special thanks, as always, to our ever-patient producer, Francis Ying. And next week is our 300th episode. If all goes as planned, we’ll have something special, so be sure to tune in. As always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org. Or you can tweet me. I’m still there. I’m @jrovner. Sarah?

Karlin-Smith: I’m @SarahKarlin.

Rovner: Alice.

Ollstein: @AliceOllstein.

Rovner: Rachel.

Cohrs: @rachelcohrs.

Rovner: We will be back in your feed next week. Until then, be healthy.

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Julie Rovner is chief Washington correspondent and host of KFF Health News’ weekly health policy news podcast, “What the Health?” A noted expert on health policy issues, Julie is the author of the critically praised reference book “Health Care Politics and Policy A to Z,” now in its third edition.

The fate of the abortion pill mifepristone remains in jeopardy, as an appellate court panel during a hearing this week sounded sympathetic to a lower court’s ruling that the FDA should not have approved the drug more than two decades ago. No matter how the appeals court rules, the case seems headed for the Supreme Court.

Meanwhile, in the partisan standoff over raising the nation’s debt ceiling, a key sticking point has emerged: whether to add a work requirement to the state-federal Medicaid program. Republicans are adamant about adding one; Democrats point out that, in the few states that have tried them, red tape has resulted in eligible people wrongly losing their health coverage.

This week’s panelists are Julie Rovner of KFF Health News, Sandhya Raman of CQ Roll Call, Rachel Roubein of The Washington Post, and Victoria Knight of Axios.

Panelists

Sandhya Raman
CQ Roll Call

@SandhyaWrites

Read Sandhya's stories

Rachel Roubein
The Washington Post

@rachel_roubein

Read Rachel's stories

Victoria Knight
Axios

@victoriaregisk

Read Victoria's stories

Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:

• Hopes among abortion rights advocates for continued access to mifepristone dimmed as the three judges on the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals signaled they are skeptical of the FDA’s decades-old approval of the drug and of the Biden administration’s arguments defending it. Lawyers debated whether the Texas doctors challenging the drug had been harmed by it and thus had standing to sue. If the original ruling effectively revoking the drug’s approval is allowed to stand, the case could open the door to future legal challenges to the approval of controversial drugs.
• Two more states in the South are moving to restrict abortion, further cutting access to the procedure in the region. In North Carolina, a new Republican supermajority in the state legislature enabled the passage this week of a new, 12-week ban, as lawmakers in South Carolina consider a six-week ban.
• In Congress, the top Senate Republican said he will not back one senator’s months-long effort to hold up Pentagon nominations over a policy that supports troops and their dependents who must travel to other states to obtain an abortion.
• Envision Healthcare — which spent big in 2019 to fight legislation prohibiting some surprise medical bills — has filed for bankruptcy protection more than a year after the law took effect and cut into its bottom line. But a federal lawsuit from a group of emergency room physicians against Envision may move forward. The lawsuit claims the private equity-backed company is in violation of a California law banning corporate control of medical practices, and it could carry major consequences for the growing number of practices backed by private equity firms across the country.
• Monica Bertagnolli has been nominated to lead the National Institutes of Health. Currently the director of the National Cancer Institute, she will need to be confirmed by the Senate, which hasn’t confirmed an NIH chief since before the passage of the Affordable Care Act in 2010. Meanwhile, Sen. Bernie Sanders’ stewardship of a key health committee is causing delays on even bipartisan efforts.

Plus, for “extra credit,” the panelists suggest health policy stories they read this week that they think you should read, too:

Julie Rovner: The Washington Post’s “A 150-Year-Old Law Could Help Determine the Fate of U.S. Abortion Access,” by Dan Diamond and Ann E. Marimow.

Victoria Knight: The New York Times’ “World Health Organization Warns Against Using Artificial Sweeteners,” by April Rubin.

Rachel Roubein: CBS News’ “Thousands Face Medicaid Whiplash in South Dakota and North Carolina,” by Arielle Zionts of KFF Health News.

Sandhya Raman: CQ Roll Call’s “A Year After Dobbs Leak, Democrats Still See Abortion Driving 2024 Voters,” by Mary Ellen McIntire and Daniela Altimari.

Also mentioned in this week’s episode:

KFF Health News’ “ER Doctors Vow to Pursue Case Against Envision Despite Bankruptcy,” by Bernard J. Wolfson.

click to open the transcript

Transcript: The Abortion Pill Goes Back to Court

KFF Health News’ ‘What the Health?’

Episode Title: The Abortion Pill Goes Back to Court

Episode Number: 298

Published: May 18, 2023

[Editor’s note: This transcript, generated using transcription software, has been edited for style and clarity.]

Julie Rovner: Hello and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Julie Rovner, chief Washington correspondent at KFF Health News. And I’m joined by some of the best and smartest health reporters in Washington. We’re taping this week on Thursday, May 18, at 10 a.m. As always, news happens fast and things might have changed by the time you hear this. So here we go. We are joined today via video conference by Rachel Roubein of The Washington Post.

Rachel Roubein: Hi. Thanks for having me.

Rovner: Victoria Knight of Axios.

Victoria Knight: Hi. Good morning.

Rovner: And Sandhya Raman of CQ Roll Call.

Sandhya Raman: Hi, and good morning, everyone.

Rovner: Lots and lots of health news this week, so we will dive right in. We’re going to start with abortion because there is so much breaking news on that front. On Wednesday, a three-judge panel of the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals in New Orleans held a hearing on the Biden administration’s appeal of a Texas ruling that the FDA was wrong when it approved the abortion pill mifepristone more than 22 years ago. The panel, which was randomly chosen from an already pretty conservative slate there in the 5th Circuit, appeared to be even more anti-abortion than most of the judges on that bench. So, Sandhya, you listened to this whole thing. What, if anything, did we glean from this hearing?

Raman: I think we gleaned a lot of things and a lot of things I think we have predicted from the start. I think going into this, looking at the various judges’ records, they have ruled on anti-abortion cases in the past in the favor of that. You take that in with a grain of salt. And from watching the arguments, it seemed like they were fairly skeptical of the challenge and FDA’s approval of mifepristone and the subsequent regulations. You could kind of see through the questioning the kinds of things that they were asking and just pretty skeptical of just a lot of the things that were being said by DOJ [the Department of Justice] and by Danco there yesterday. So —

Rovner: Yeah, we should say that the lawyer for the FDA had one sort of round of presentation and questions. And then the lawyer from Danco, the company that makes mifepristone, had another. And they were pretty tough on both of them.

Raman: Yeah, and I thought it was interesting because when we were listening to the arguments, the DOJ lawyer and the Danco lawyer were kind of arguing a lot of the time just that there shouldn’t be standing, that there isn’t necessarily proof in any of the filings that any of the doctors that that were suing have really had harm due to the FDA’s role. It was kind of down the road. I think one thing that Harrington, the judge for the DOJ, had said, that was the FDA approving a drug does not mean that anyone has to prescribe it, it does not mean anyone has to take it, that the fact that if you were treating someone after the fact, that’s a few steps down the line. And so that was kind of like a messaging thing that they were doing kind of over and over again. And then when we got to the Alliance Defending Freedom, which is representing the conservative doctors, Erin Hawley had said, you know, they are affected both physically and she said emotionally, which was interesting, kind of looking at that. And so it’ll depend on how the judges rule. I think that there were definitely some signs throughout the arguments about this not being as unprecedented and that the FDA is not untouchable in terms of the courts weighing in on regulation.

Rovner: If you were just listening to it, you didn’t sort of know all of this. And remember, these were two Trump-appointed judges and a George W. Bush-appointed judge who has a history of ruling in favor of anti-abortion efforts. But they were saying that, “Well, people sue the FDA all the time. You know, what’s the difference here?” Well, the difference here is nobody has ever sued the FDA saying that they were wrong to approve something 20 years ago. Nobody’s ever tried to get a drug taken off the market that way. There’s obviously lots of litigation against the FDA for the way it does some of its thing. I mean, it’s often little things and then people sue each other with the FDA caught in the middle — drugmakers and lots of patent suits. I was surprised that the appeals court judges took issue with what everybody I think acknowledges is a correct claim that this is unprecedented and this could open the door to other challenges to other drugs for any reason — you know, someone doesn’t like them. I mean, these doctors are not saying that they’ve prescribed this drug and women have taken it and had bad reactions. They’re saying that possibly, if someone takes it and has a bad reaction, that they would have to treat that person and that that would harm their conscience, even though, as the lawyers made it clear, no one has ever forced these doctors to take care of anyone against their conscience because there are already laws that protect against that. So it was very roundabout in a lot of ways.

Raman: I think one thing that they had mentioned was that, you know, some of the cases cited in the filings were, you know, someone had taken an imported version of a mifepristone, not the one that Danco made, and then someone else had been recommended not to take the drug but still took the drug and then had side effects related to that. But there is another thing that kind of stuck out to me, was when Judge [James] Ho had asked would the FDA adhere to whatever the final court decision was? And that was a little striking to me. And then the FDA had said, you know, we will. And they cited that they had signed an affidavit last year saying that they’re going to agree to whatever the final decision is. But there were a lot of parts of the case that were just very unusual compared to the other cases that I have watched on this or any other part of health care, I think.

Rovner: Although in fairness to the judges, I mean, there was — a lot of legal experts were saying that the FDA does have enforcement authority to determine what it’s going to enforce and what it isn’t. And Justice [Samuel] Alito, when he actually challenged the Supreme Court’s stay of the original ruling — Justice Alito questioned about whether FDA would even follow if this drug was deemed unapproved. So that’s at least been coming up as a discussion. Let’s move on because it could be weeks or even months before we hear back from this panel, and we will obviously keep watching it. There’s been plenty of action in the states, too, this week — not that surprising because it’s May and lots of state legislatures are wrapping up their sessions for the year. But we should point out that particularly North and South Carolina are acting on abortion because they’ve been two of the last states in the South where abortion had remained both legal and pretty much broadly available. That’s changing as of this week, though, isn’t it?

Roubein: That’s changing in North Carolina, for sure, after this week. The Republicans there have supermajorities as of April; a Democrat in the House switched to the Republican Party. And what they did there is they overrode a veto from Democratic Gov. Roy Cooper. And this new bill, which the main provisions go into effect July 1, will restrict abortions at 12 weeks in pregnancy. And now in South Carolina, it’s still a little bit to be determined. The House passed a bill last night which would restrict abortions after fetal cardiac activity’s detected — roughly six weeks. Now they’re sending that bill back to the Senate, which had already passed it. But they made some changes. And it’s not clear whether some of the Republican female senators who oppose a near-total ban will be in favor of these changes. So that one’s a bit up in the air.

Rovner: And obviously, the 12 weeks in North Carolina is going to be important because there are a lot of women coming from other states now to North Carolina and clinics are getting backed up. It is a time thing for women to sort of be able to get themselves together, often get child care, get time off from a job, have to find a hotel in most cases, and go to another state. So it’s going to turn out to be an issue.

Roubein: I think one of the provisions abortion rights groups are pointing to there is, because this is a 12-week ban, so roughly 90% of abortions are allowed to continue, but what Democrats really pointed out was that the bill requires an in-person visit 72 hours before obtaining an abortion. So that could kind of restrict people, as you mentioned, Julie, from being able to take that time and come in from out of state in North Carolina, which has become a destination for abortions.

Rovner: All right. Well, I want to circle back to something that’s been going on for a while in the U.S. Senate. We talked about it back in March. Alabama Republican Sen. Tommy Tuberville is single-handedly holding up many military promotions to protest a Biden administration policy that allows members of the military in states with abortion bans both time off and travel funds to obtain an abortion in another state. Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin says that this — the delayed promotions — is starting to impact the nation’s readiness. Is there any resolution to this in sight? It’s now been going on for, what, a month and a half.

Raman: I think that, you know, we’re getting somewhat closer to it, but it’s hard to tell. I mean, we’ve had Mitch McConnell say that he’s not supporting what Tuberville is doing with the blockade of military nominations, so that could be a little bit more pressure compared to anyone else in the caucus putting that pressure. But I think the other thing that had come up is that there had been a report this week that the administration was going to delay on deciding if Space Force Command was going to move from Colorado to Alabama because of Tuberville. And so I think that, if that is the case — two different pressure points — there might be movement. But it’s been happening for a long time. We’ve had hundreds of nominees delayed. And I think the pushback has not necessarily been fully partisan. Even before we had McConnell speak out, we’ve had other members of — Republican senators kind of say, you know, this is maybe not the best move to do this, so —

Rovner: I mean, given how important Republicans take the military, I get why he’s doing this. It’s a pressure point because it’s a DOD [Department of Defense] policy. But still, it looks funny for a Republican to be holding up something that’s really important to the military.

Raman: Earlier this year, I think it was last month, you know, the Senate had done their procedural vote on a Tuberville resolution on something that was kind of similar, when they had the VA [Department of Veterans Affairs] rule that allows them to provide abortions for, you know, the Hyde exceptions, so rape, incest, life of the mother. And, you know, that didn’t pass on a procedural vote. So maybe something like that could be, like, a bargaining point. But it would require Democrats to say, “Yes, we do want to vote on this.” And I think that the last comments that Tuberville had even said were that, you know, “Until this policy is gone, I don’t want to waiver.” So it might not be a solution, but it could be something.

Rovner: Well, speaking of things that are proving difficult to resolve, let’s talk about the debt ceiling talks. As of today, Thursday, there’s no agreement yet, although President Biden is going to cut his overseas trip short after Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen warned that the so-called x-date, when the Treasury can no longer pay its bills, could really happen as soon as June 1. One of the big sticking points appears to be work requirements for programs aimed at low-income Americans, which Republicans are demanding and Democrats are resisting. Welfare, now called Temporary Aid to Needy Families, already has work requirements, as does SNAP [Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program], the current name for food stamps, which leaves Medicaid, which has been a particular sticking point over the last few years. I guess we were all right back in February when Biden and the Republicans seemed to take Medicare and Social Security off the table, and we all predicted the fight would come down to Medicaid. So here we are, yes?

Knight: Yep, we’re at Medicaid. But it does seem like we’re really going back and forth on it. I think the sentiment at first was kind of that this would be the first thing to fall out of a potential deal between Democrats and Republicans because Democrats are really opposed to this. But I don’t know. This week, President Biden made some comments that were a little confusing. It kind of made it sound like he was potentially open to the idea. And then the White House kind of walked that back this week and sent some press releases out that were like, We don’t want to touch Medicaid. And then I believe it was sometime yesterday, on Wednesday, the president said, “Maybe, but nothing of consequence,” when talking about work requirements. And Congress is leaving today. So I think it’s kind of still up in the air, but the door still seems to be open, I guess is kind of the takeaway.

Rovner: There seems to be some concern from Democrats on Capitol Hill that President Biden may give too much away in trying to avoid a debt default. I mean, he’s already sort of after, you know, “We will not negotiate on the debt ceiling, we will not negotiate on the debt ceiling” — I mean, the administration says they’re negotiating on the budget, but they’re negotiating on the debt ceiling, right?

Knight: Yeah. I mean, and it seems that President Biden, the administration, may be open to budget caps as well or cutting spending. And that was kind of something that it seemed like Democrats at first were not open to doing at all. I talked to some appropriators this week, and they’re pretty upset about — Democratic appropriators — they’re pretty upset because they want the debt ceiling and appropriations to be a separate process, and they’re being tied together right now. Yeah, I think they’re somewhat concerned with how the president is negotiating right now.

Rovner: Well, it’s May 18. There’s been no talk yet of a temporary — although I assume at some point we’re going to say, let’s just extend this out a few days, and let’s extend it out a few more days, and we’ll extend it out a few more days. So obviously, we will watch this space. So the mifepristone case is not the only judicial news this week. In that other case out of Texas, challenging the preventive health services part to the Affordable Care Act, the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals — lots of news out of New Orleans this week — temporarily stayed the ruling by Judge Reed O’Connor that the ACA unconstitutionally deputized the U.S. Preventive Health Services Task Force from deciding which preventive services should be provided without copays. Long sentence. I hope it makes sense. Reed O’Connor, of course, being the judge who tried unsuccessfully to declare the entire ACA unconstitutional in 2018. What happens now in this case? Nothing changes until it gets resolved, right?

Roubein: Right. Right now I think that just through that, this means that insurers will be required to continue covering services recommended by the U.S. Preventive Services Task Force without cost sharing in care.

Rovner: And that includes PrEP for HIV, which is what’s really at issue with these doctors who are suing the FDA — or actually I guess they’re suing HHS [the Department of Health and Human Services] in general — saying that they don’t want to be required to provide these drugs.

Roubein: Yeah, it does include PrEP.

Rovner: So that will continue. I imagine that will also find its way to the Supreme Court. Finally, in not really judicial but court-related news, Envision, the private equity-backed physician staffing firm, filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy this week, presumably because the emergency room physician practices it owns can no longer send patients most surprise medical bills. ER bills were among the most common types of surprise bills, when patients would specifically take their emergency to an in-network hospital, only to find that the doctors in the emergency room were all out of network. Is this one small step towards taking some of the profit motive out of health care? I don’t see anybody, like, shedding a lot of tears for Envision declaring bankruptcy here.

Raman: I think the second part, that the lawsuit by the ER doctors against Envision, despite them filing for bankruptcy, is going forward is interesting, and it seems unusual to me, because they’re not asking for monetary damages, but they want, like, a legal finding that the way that the company’s business structure — ownership of the staffing groups — is illegal, and if, like, winning that would ban the practice in the state of California. And so I think if you’re looking at it in terms of, like, things that would happen over the course of time, policywise, that could be something interesting to kind of watch there.

Roubein: I just wanted to hearken back real quick to, like, 2019. In the middle of the surprise billing debate, Envision and another major doctor staffing firm spent significant sums of money to try and sway the surprise billing legislation that the House and the Senate were hashing out.

Rovner: Yeah, they made CNN and MSNBC very rich with their ads.

Roubein: Millions of them.

Rovner: In the ’90s, I covered, you know, this whole corporate practice of medicine thing because I think it’s every state has a law that says that corporations can’t practice medicine; only licensed health professionals can practice medicine. So I’ve always wondered about, you know, what this lawsuit is about anyway. How are these companies actually getting away with doing this? And the answer is maybe they’re not or maybe they won’t. It’s going to be interesting. There’s now so much profit motive and private equity in health care because there’s a lot of money to be made that it’s, I think somebody is actually starting to, you know, call on it. We will definitely see how this plays out. We may not have a “This Week in Private Equity” anymore. Well, let us go back to Capitol Hill, where we finally have a nominee to head the National Institutes of Health, current National Cancer Institute chief Monica Bertagnolli, who is also, ironically, a cancer patient at the moment, although her prognosis is very good, we are told. There hasn’t been a confirmed head of the NIH since Francis Collins stepped down at the end of 2021. Congress hasn’t had to confirm a new head of the NIH since before the passage of the Affordable Care Act. I imagine that Dr. Bertagnolli is going to have to navigate some pretty choppy confirmation waters, even in a Senate where Democrats are nominally in the majority, right?

Knight: Yeah, I spent some time talking to HELP [Health, Education, Labor and Pensions] Committee Republicans last week and this week, and they definitely have some things they want to see out of a new NIH director. They’re definitely concerned about gain-of-function research, potential funding of that type of research, which is supposed to, hypothetically, make viruses more virulent. So several of them said, you know, “We don’t want to see the agency funding that kind of research,” or, “We want restrictions around that kind of research.” They also are concerned with the agency giving a grant to an organization called EcoHealth, which was supposed to have done research in Wuhan that was around gain-of-function-type things. And I think they also, in general, are just concerned with how the NIH and the CDC [Centers for Disease Control and Prevention] responded to the covid pandemic, and they aren’t happy with some of the decisions they made, what they felt like were mandate — top-down mandates. And so I do think we will see, if we actually get a HELP confirmation hearing any time soon, we’ll see — I think it’s going to be pretty contentious possibly. And as you referenced, I kind of looked into this when I was writing my story, and there really has not been a contentious hearing in a long time. Francis Collins went through a unanimous voice vote when he was confirmed. And then the two previous NIH directors, they kind of sailed through their HELP confirmation hearings. And if you think about it, Francis Collins also has served under both Republican and Democratic presidents. And I wonder if we are coming to a point where that won’t happen anymore with NIH directors.

Rovner: Back when I first started covering the NIH, it was contentious because they were talking about fetal tissue research and stem cell research and stuff that was really controversial. But then Newt Gingrich, when he became speaker of the House, declared that, you know, he wanted the 21st century to be, you know, the century of biomedicine. And he vowed to double the funding for the NIH, which the Republicans did, you know, with the Democrats’ help. So NIH has been this sacred cow, if you will, bipartisanly for at least two decades. And now it’s sort of coming back to being a little bit controversial again. In talking about the debt ceiling and possible budget cuts, I mean, NIH has usually been spared from those. But I’m guessing that if there’s budget caps, NIH is going to be included in those places where we’re going to cut the budget, right?

Knight: Yeah, absolutely. I have been talking to a Republican House appropriator over the NIH. Robert Aderholt told me that, yes, they expect a cut in their budget because Defense and NIH, Labor, HHS are usually the biggest bills. And he told me Defense probably isn’t getting cut very much, so we’re expecting to get cut. So obviously, you know, it’s a messaging bill in the House, but I think the expectation is that they’re going to propose that. The Senate seemed pretty set on keeping NIH funding what it was. They had an NIH appropriations hearing recently. So, I mean, there’s going to be some difference between those two chambers. But I think it does seem likely, especially with all the debt ceiling stuff, that cuts are possible.

Rovner: So that’s NIH. In the meantime, now we have an opening at the CDC because Rochelle Walensky announced her resignation. Have we heard any inklings about who wants to step into that very hot seat?

Roubein: I can point to some reporting from my colleagues at the Post, Dan Diamond and Lena H. Sun. At the time, the day that Walensky announced that she’d be stepping down June 30, they had wrote that White House officials had, you know, been preparing for a little while for a potential departure and had begun gauging interest in the position. And some people that Dan and Lena named that the administration had approached is former New York City Health Commissioner Dave A. Chokshi, former North Carolina Health Secretary Mandy Cohen, and the California health state secretary. Now, we don’t know ultimately what the White House, President Biden, is going to do. I do think it’s worth pointing out that the new CDC director won’t have to be Senate-confirmed; that was passed in the big sweeping government funding bill, that a CDC director would need to be confirmed, but starting January 20, 2025. So, you know, sounds like something, you know, Democrats might have been interested in doing, kind of pushing that out. So, yeah.

Rovner: The CDC is, you know, sort of the one big Department of Health and Human Services job that does not come up for Senate confirmation. Obviously, that is being changed, but it’s not being changed yet. Well, both of these confirmations, mostly the NIH one at this point, comes up before the Senate HELP Committee, Victoria, as you pointed out. Chairman Bernie Sanders there is having — what shall we call them? — some growing pains as chairman of a committee with a heavy legislative workload. What’s the latest here? He’s still kind of working on getting some of these bipartisan bills through, isn’t he?

Knight: Yeah, there is a little bit of a snafu at a recent HELP Committee hearing where Ranking Member Bill Cassidy was not happy that Sen. Sanders was bringing up some amendments that he wasn’t aware of or that they had kind of agreed to table at some point and then he brought them back up during a hearing or during a markup, and so they ended up having to delay the markup itself and do it the next week. And these were bipartisan bills. So it was really just a process issue; it wasn’t so much the subject of the bills. And they kind of worked it out and were able to pass the bills out of the committee, or most of the bills out of the committee, the next week after that happened. So I think that Sen. Sanders is figuring out how to run the HELP Committee. What I’ve kind of heard is that he is somewhat more interested in labor issues than health, and so his focus is not maybe as much on health. And I think you can see that sometimes. Also, when you talk to Sen. Sanders, he’s very much a big-picture guy and isn’t so much in the process weeds often, whereas Sen. Cassidy loves the process.

Rovner: So we’re noticing.

Knight: Yeah, Sen. Cassidy loves the process. So they’re an interesting duo, I think.

Rovner: Yeah, I mean, I was interested that this week, you know, Sen. Sanders was among those there reintroducing the “Medicare for All” bill that obviously has no future in the immediate future. But at the same time, community health centers are up for reauthorization this year. And that has always been a pet issue, even when he was House member, you know, Rep. Sanders. This is one of the issues that I know he cares a lot about. And now he’s in charge of making sure that it gets reauthorized. So he’s got sort of these competing big-picture stuff and, not smaller, but smaller than the big-picture stuff that he really cares about. I’ll be curious to see what he’s able to do on that front. I assume there’s no word on that yet, even though the authorization ends Sept. 30, right?

Raman: The sense that I’ve gotten from talking to folks is that community health centers is higher up the totem pole than some of the other issues on the must-pass list. I mean, we still have to deal with the debt ceiling and everything related there. But I think that there has been a little bit more progress then. I mean, this week, at least in the House, Energy and Commerce had marked up their bill that had community health center funding in there. So I think there’s a little bit more push on that end because they’re, you know, fairly bipartisan, have seen interest across the board on that. So I think that they are making some progress there. It’s just that there’s so many other factors right now, and that makes it pretty tricky.

Rovner: The ironic thing about Congress — it’s summertime when everybody else sort of kicks back. — that’s when Congress kicks into gear. So a lot, I imagine, is going to happen in June and July. All right. That is this week’s news. Now it is time for our extra credit segment. That’s when we each recommend a story we read this week we think you should read too. As always, don’t worry if you miss it. We will post the links on the podcast page at kffhealthnews.org and in our show notes on your phone or other mobile device. Victoria, why don’t you go first this week?

Knight: Sure. My extra credit this week is called “World Health Organization Warns Against Using Artificial Sweeteners.” It was published in The New York Times. Basically, the WHO said this week that artificial sweeteners aren’t effective in reducing body fat and could actually increase the risk of Type 2 diabetes and cardiovascular diseases. They looked at the available evidence, and it’s just a set of guidelines that they’re issuing. It’s not binding to anything. You know, every country can kind of make their own decision based on this. But I think it was an interesting marker. If you look at the influx of all these artificial sweeteners over time that have kind of become a mainstream part of our diet, they’re available in a bunch of different things that you can get at the store, and people often turn to them when they’re trying to reduce sugar. And now this large body is saying they may actually worsen your health, not help you, and not even reduce fat. So I think that was just kind of interesting. The FDA did not respond to The New York Times’ request for the story, so I’m not sure their stance on this, but just something to note.

Rovner: I was interested that the WHO did that. It seemed sort of very not WHO-ish, but also interesting. Sandhya, why don’t you go next.

Raman: All right, so my extra credit this week is called “A Year After Dobbs Leak, Democrats Still See Abortion Driving 2024 Voters.” And it’s from my colleagues “What the Health?” alum Mary Ellen McIntire and Daniela Altimari. And they take a look at how Democrats are kind of seeing how abortion messaging isn’t fading a year after — almost — the Dobbs decision, are kind of doubling down on focusing on that. President Biden and Vice President Harris were both at the EMILYs List gala this week honoring Nancy Pelosi. And it also comes amid a lot of the state action we talked about earlier of a lot of abortion bans going into place. And so they have a good look at that that you can read.

Rovner: Rachel.

Roubein: My extra credit is called “Thousands Face Medicaid Whiplash in South Dakota and North Carolina,” by Arielle Zionts from KFF Health News. And she takes a look at the unwinding of keeping people on the Medicaid program, particularly in South Dakota and North Carolina, where the dynamic is really interesting, because both states have recently passed Medicaid expansion. So officials are kind of going through the Medicaid rolls beforehand. So some people who could be eligible soon may be getting kicked off, only to need to reapply, or officials need to tell them that they can reapply. So I thought it was a really interesting look on how this is playing out.

Rovner: Yeah, it is. I mean, talk about head-explodingly confusing for people; it’s like, “You’re not eligible now, but you will be in three weeks. So just kind of sit tight and don’t go to the doctor for the next couple of weeks,” basically where they are. Well, my story is from The Washington Post, and it’s called “A 150-Year-Old Law Could Help Determine the Fate of U.S. Abortion Access,” by Dan Diamond and Ann Marimow. And it’s about the Comstock Act, which we have talked about before. It’s a Reconstruction-era law pushed through Congress by an anti-vice crusader, Anthony Comstock, who I learned this week was not actually a member of Congress. He was just an interested party. The law purports to ban the mailing of all sorts of lewd and lascivious items, including those intended to be used for abortion. Abortion opponents are trying to resurrect the law, which has never been formally repealed. But it turns out that Comstock wasn’t actually all that anti-abortion. In a newly resurrected interview that Comstock did with Harper’s Weekly in 1915, he said he never intended for the law to interfere with the practice of medicine by licensed doctors, including for abortion. Quote, “A reputable doctor may tell his patient, in his office what is necessary, and a druggist may sell on a doctor’s written prescription drugs which he would not be allowed to sell otherwise.” That’s how Comstock is quoted as saying. Um, wow. It’s just another weird twist in an already very twisty story. But let’s keep track of the Comstock Law going forward. All right. That is our show for this week. As always, if you enjoy the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left us a review; that helps other people find us too. Special thanks, as always, to our ever-patient producer, Francis Ying. Also as always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org. Or you can tweet me. I’m still there. I’m at @jrovner. Sandhya?

Raman: @SandhyaWrites.

Rovner: Rachel.

Roubein: @rachel_roubein.

Rovner: Victoria.

Knight: @victoriaregisk.

Rovner: We will be back in your feed next week. Until then, be healthy.

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Julie Rovner is chief Washington correspondent and host of KFF Health News’ weekly health policy news podcast, “What the Health?” A noted expert on health policy issues, Julie is the author of the critically praised reference book “Health Care Politics and Policy A to Z,” now in its third edition.

The formal end May 11 of the national public health emergency for covid-19 will usher in lots of changes in the way Americans get vaccines, treatment, and testing for the coronavirus. It will also change the way some people get their health insurance, with millions likely to lose coverage altogether.

Meanwhile, two FDA advisory committees voted unanimously this week to allow the over-the-counter sale of a specific birth control pill. Advocates of making the pill easier to get say it could remove significant barriers to the use of effective contraception and prevent thousands of unplanned pregnancies every year. The FDA, however, must still formally approve the change, and some of its staff scientists have expressed concerns about whether teenagers and low-literacy adults will be able to follow the directions without the direct involvement of a medical professional.

This week’s panelists are Julie Rovner of KFF Health News, Joanne Kenen of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico, Tami Luhby of CNN, and Margot Sanger-Katz of The New York Times.

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Joanne Kenen
Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico

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Read Joanne's stories

Tami Luhby
CNN

@luhby

Read Tami's stories

Margot Sanger-Katz
The New York Times

@sangerkatz

Read Margot's stories

Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:

• The formal public health emergency may be over, but covid definitely is not. More than 1,000 people in the United States died of the virus between April 19 and April 26, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. While most Americans have put covid in their rearview mirrors, it remains a risk around the country.
• The Senate Finance Committee held a hearing on “ghost networks,” lists of health professionals distributed by insurance companies who are not taking new patients or are not actually in the insurance company’s network. Ghost networks are a particular problem in mental health care, where few providers take health insurance at all.
• Another trend in the business of health care is primary care practices being bought by hospitals, insurance companies, and even Amazon. This strategy was popular in the 1990s, as health systems sought to “vertically integrate.” But now the larger entities may have other reasons for having their own networks of doctors, including using their patients to create revenue streams.
• Court battles continue over the fate of the abortion pill mifepristone, as a federal appeals court in New Orleans prepares to hear arguments about a lower-court judge’s ruling that would effectively cancel the drug’s approval by the FDA. In West Virginia, the maker of the generic version of the drug is challenging the right of the state to ban medication approved by federal officials. At the same time, a group of independent abortion clinics from various states is suing the FDA to drop restrictions on how mifepristone can be prescribed, joining mostly Democratic-led states seeking to ensure access to the drug.

Plus for “extra credit” the panelists suggest health policy stories they read this week that they think you should read, too:

Julie Rovner: Slate’s “Not Every Man Will Be as Dumb as Marcus Silva,” by Moira Donegan and Mark Joseph Stern.

Joanne Kenen: The Baltimore Banner’s “Baltimore Isn’t Accessible for People With Disabilities. Fixing It Would Cost Over $650 Million,” by Hallie Miller and Adam Willis.

Tami Luhby: CNN’s “Because of Florida Abortion Laws, She Carried Her Baby to Term Knowing He Would Die,” by Elizabeth Cohen, Carma Hassan, and Amanda Musa.

Margot Sanger-Katz: The New Yorker’s “The Problem With Planned Parenthood,” by Eyal Press.

Also mentioned in this week’s episode:

• CNN’s “Here’s How the End of the Covid-19 Public Health Emergency Affects You,” by Tami Luhby and Alex Leeds Matthews.
• The New York Times’ “Corporate Giants Buy Up Primary Care Practices at Rapid Pace,” by Reed Abelson.
• Vox’s “Independents Back Abortion Rights. They’re Less Sure Democrats Do,” by Rachel M. Cohen.

Click to open the transcript

Transcript: The Crisis Is Officially Ending, but Covid Confusion Lives On

[Editor’s note: This transcript, generated using transcription software, has been edited for style and clarity.]

Julie Rovner: Hello and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Julie Rovner, chief Washington correspondent at KFF Health News. And I’m joined by some of the best and smartest health reporters in Washington. We are taping this week on Thursday, May 11, at 10:30 a.m. As always, news happens fast and things might have changed by the time you hear this. So here we go. We are joined today via video conference by Tami Luhby, of CNN.

Tami Luhby: Hello.

Rovner: Margot Sanger Katz, The New York Times.

Sanger-Katz: Good morning.

Rovner: And Joanne Kenen, of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico.

Joanne Kenen: Hi, everybody.

Rovner: So the news on the debt ceiling standoff, just so you know, is that there is no news. Congressional leaders and White House officials are meeting again on Friday, and we still expect to not see this settled until the last possible minute. But there was plenty of other health news. We will start with the official end of the U.S. public health emergency for covid. We have talked at some length about the Medicaid unwinding that’s now happening and a potential to end some telehealth service reimbursement. But there’s a lot more that’s going away after May 11. Tami, you’ve been working to compile everything that’s about to change. What are the high points here?

Luhby: Well, there are a lot of changes depending on what type of insurance you have and whether we’re talking about testing, treatment, or vaccines. So I can give you a quick rundown. We wrote a visual story on this today. If you go to CNN.com, you’ll find it on the homepage right now.

Rovner: I will link to it in the show notes for the podcast.

Luhby: Basically, many people will be paying more for treatments and for tests. However, vaccines will generally remain free for almost everyone. And basically, if you look at our story, you’ll see the color-coded guide as to how it may impact you. But basically, testing — at-home tests are no longer guaranteed to be free. So if you’ve been going to your CVS or somewhere else to pick up your eight tests a month, your insurer may opt to continue providing it for free, but I don’t think many will. And then for lab tests, again, it really depends. But if you have Medicaid, all tests will be free through 2024. However, if you have private insurance or Medicare, you will probably have to start paying out-of-pocket for tests that are ordered by your provider. Those deductibles, those pesky deductibles, and copays or coinsurance will start kicking in again. And for treatments, it’s a little bit different again. The cost will vary by treatment if you have Medicare or private insurance. However, Paxlovid and treatments that are purchased by the federal government, such as Paxlovid, will be free as long as supplies last. Now, also, if you’re uninsured, there is a whole different situation. It’ll be somewhat more difficult for them. But there are still options. And, you know, the White House has been working to provide free treatments and vaccines for them.

Rovner: So if you get covid, get it soon.

Luhby: Like today. Right, exactly. Yeah, but with vaccines, even though, again, they’re free as long as the federal supplies last — but because of the Affordable Care Act, the CARES Act, and the Inflation Reduction Act, people with private insurance, Medicare, and Medicaid will actually continue to be able to get free vaccines after the federal supplies run out.

Rovner: After May 11.

Luhby: It’s very confusing.

Rovner: It is very confusing. That’s why you did a whole graphic. Joanne, you wanted to add something.

Kenen: And the confusion is the problem. We have lots of problems, but, like, last week, we talked a little bit about this. You know, are we still in an emergency? We’re not in an emergency the way we were in 2020, 2021, but it’s not gone. We all know it’s much, much better, but it’s not gone. And it could get worse again, particularly if people are confused, if people don’t know how to test, if people don’t know that they can still get things. The four of us are professionals, and, like, Tami’s having to read this complicated color-coded chart — you know, you get this until September 2024, but this goes away in 2023. And, you know, if you have purple insurance, you get this. And if you have purple polka-dotted insurance, you get that. And the lack of clarity is dangerous, because if people don’t get what they’re eligible for because they hear “emergency over, everything — nothing’s free anymore” — we’re already having trouble with uptake. We don’t have enough people getting boosters. People don’t know that they can get Paxlovid and that it’s free and that it works. We are still in this very inadequate response. We’re not in the terrifying emergency of three years ago, but it’s not copacetic. You know, it’s not perfect. And this confusion is really part of what really worries me the most. And the people who are most likely to be hurt are the people who are always most likely to be hurt: the people who are poor, the people who are in underserved communities, the people who are less educated, and it’s disproportionately people in minority communities. We’ve seen this show before, and that’s part of what I worry about — that there’s a data issue that we’ll get to whenever Julie decides to get to it, right?

Rovner: Yeah, I mean, and that’s the thing. With so much of the emergency going away, we’re not really going to know as much as we have before.

Sanger-Katz: In some ways, how you feel about this transition really reflects how you feel about the way that our health care system works in general. You know, what happened for covid is —and I’m oversimplifying a little bit — is we sort of set up a single-payer system just for one disease. So everyone had access to all of the vaccines, everyone had access to all of the tests, everyone had access to all of the treatments basically for free. And we also created this huge expansion of Medicaid coverage by no longer allowing the states to kick people out if they no longer seem to be eligible. So we had the kind of system that I think a lot of people on the left would like to see, not just for one disease but for every disease, where you have kind of more universal coverage and where the cost of obtaining important treatments and prevention is zero to very low. And this is definitely going to be a bumpy transition, but it’s basically a transition to the way our health care system works for every other disease. So if you are someone who had some other kind of infectious disease or a chronic disease like cancer, rheumatoid arthritis, whatever, you’ve been sort of dealing with all of this stuff the whole time — that you have to pay for your drugs; that, you know, that testing is expensive; that it’s confusing where you get things; that, you know, there’s a lot of complexity and hoops you have to jump through; that a lot depends on what kind of insurance you have; that what kind of insurance you can get depends on your income and other demographic characteristics. And so I find this transition to be pretty interesting because it seems like it would be weird for the United States to just forever have one system for this disease and another system for every other disease. And of course, we do have this for people who are experiencing kidney disease: They get Medicare, they get the government system, regardless of whether they would otherwise be eligible for Medicare.

Rovner: We should point out that Congress did that in 1972. They haven’t really done it since.

Kenen: And when it was much more rare than it was today.

Rovner: And when people didn’t live very long with it mostly.

Kenen: We didn’t have as much diabetes either.

Sanger-Katz: But anyway, I just think this transition kind of just gives us a moment to reflect on, How does the system work in general? How do we feel about how the system works in general? Are these things good or bad? And I agree with everything that Joanne said, that the confusion around this is going to have public health impacts as relates to covid. But we have lots of other diseases where we just basically have the standard system, and now we’re going to have the standard system for covid, too.

Kenen: You could have gone to the hospital with the bad pneumonia and needed oxygen, needed a ventilator, and when they tested you, if you had covid, it was all free. And if you had, you know, regular old-fashioned pneumonia, you got a bill. I agree with everything Margot said, but it’s even that silly. You could have had the same symptoms in your same lungs and you had two different health care systems and financing systems. None of us have ever thought anything made sense.

Rovner: Yes, well, I actually —

Kenen: That’s why we have a podcast. Otherwise, you know —

Sanger-Katz: And also the way that the drugs and vaccines were developed was also totally different, right? With the government deeply involved in the technology and development, you know, funding the research, purchasing large quantities of these drugs in bulk in advance. I mean, this is just not the way that our system really works for other diseases. It’s been a very interesting sort of experiment, and I do wonder whether it will be replicated in the future.

Luhby: Right. But it was also clear that this is not the beginning of the pushback. I mean, Congress has not wanted to allocate more money, you know, and there’s been a lot of arguments and conflicts over the whole course of this so-called single-payer system, or this more flexible system. So the U.S.’ approach to health care has been pushing its way in for many months.

Rovner: I naively, at the beginning of the pandemic, when we first did this and when the Republicans all voted for it, it’s like, let’s have the federal government pay the hospitals for whatever care they’re providing and make everything free at point of service to the patient — and I thought, Wow, are we going to get used to this and maybe move on? And I think the answer is exactly the opposite. It’s like, let’s get rid of it as fast as we possibly can.

Kenen: There’s money that the government has put in. I believe it is $5 billion into the next generation of vaccines and treatments, because the vaccine we have has certainly saved many lives. But as we all know, it’s not perfect. You know, it’s preventing death, but not infection. It’s not ending circulation of the disease. So we need something better. This debt ceiling fight, if the people in the government could spend all $5 billion today — like we were joking, if you want to get covid, if you’re going to get covid, get it today — I mean, if they could, they would spend all $5 billion of it today, too, because that could be clawed back. I mean, that’s — it’s going to be part of the coming fight.

Luhby: But the question is, even if they develop it, will anyone take it, or will enough people take it? That’s another issue.

Rovner: Well, since we’re sort of on the subject, I’m going to skip ahead to what I was going to bring up towards the end, which I’m calling “This Week in Our Dysfunctional Health System.”

Kenen: We could call it that way every week.

Rovner: Yes, that’s true. But this is particularly about how our health system doesn’t work. First up is “ghost networks.” Those are where insurers provide lists of health care providers who are not, in fact, available to those patients. A quote “secret shopper survey” by the staff of the Senate Finance Committee found that more than 80% of mental health providers found in insurance directories in 12 plans from six states were unreachable, not accepting new patients, or not actually in network. This is not a new problem. We’ve been hearing about it for years and years. Why does it persist? One would think that you could clean up your provider directory. That would be possible, right?

Kenen: Didn’t they legislate that, though? Didn’t they say a few years ago you have to clean it up? I mean, there are going to be some mistakes because there’s, you know, many, many providers and people will make changes or leave practices or … [unintelligible] …  jobs or whatever. But I thought that they had supposedly, theoretically, taken care of this a couple years ago in one of the annual regulations for ACA or something.

Rovner: They supposedly, theoretically, took care of the hospitals reporting their prices in a way that consumers can understand, too. So we’ve discovered in our dysfunctional health care system that Congress passing legislation or HHS [the Department of Health and Human Services] putting out rules doesn’t necessarily make things so.

Kenen: Really?

Rovner: Yeah. I just — this was one that I had thought, Oh, boy, I have a whole file on that from like the 1990s.

Sanger-Katz: It’s a huge problem, though. I mean —

Rovner: Oh, it is.

Sanger-Katz: You know, we have a system where, for large groups of Americans, you are expected to shop for a health insurance plan. If you’re purchasing a marketplace plan for yourself, if you are purchasing a Medicare Advantage plan when you become eligible for Medicare, and in many cases, if you have a choice of employer plans, you know, you’re supposed to pick the plan that’s best for you. And we have a system that tells people that having those kinds of choices is good and maximizes the benefits to people, to be able to pick the best plan. But for a lot of people, being able to have the doctors and hospitals that they use or to have a choice of a wide range of doctors for various problems, including mental health services, is a huge selling point of one plan versus another. And again, you have these ghost networks, when you have this lack of transparency and accuracy of this information, it just causes people to be unable to make those good choices and it undermines the whole system of market competition that underpins all of this policy design. I think you can argue that there are not a million gazillion people who are actually shopping on the basis of this. But I do think that knowing whether your medical providers are covered when you’re choosing a new health care plan is actually something that a lot of people do look into when they are choosing a health insurance plan. And discovering that a doctor that you’ve been seeing for a long time and whose relationship you really value and whose care has been important to you is suddenly dishonestly represented as a part of an insurance plan that you’ve selected is just, you know, it’s a huge disappointment. It causes huge disruptions in people’s care. And I think the other thing that this study highlighted is that health insurance coverage for mental health services continues to be a very large problem. There has been quite a lot of legislation and regulation trying to expand coverage for mental health care. But there are these kind of lingering problems where a lot of mental health care providers simply don’t accept insurance or don’t accept very many patients who have insurance. And so I think that this report did a good job of highlighting that place where I think these problems are even worse than they are with the health care system at large. It’s just very hard to find mental health care providers who will take your insurance.

Rovner: And I would say, when you’re in mental health distress or you have a relative who’s in mental health distress, the last thing you need is to have to call 200 different providers to find one who can help you.

Kenen: A lot of the ones that are taking insurance are these online companies, and the good thing is that they’re taking insurance and that there may be convenience factors for people, although there’s also privacy and other factors on the downside. But there have been reports about, your data is not private, and I have no idea how you find out which company is a good actor in that department and which company is just selling identifiable data. I mean, I think it was The Washington Post that had a story about that a couple of weeks ago. You know, you click in on something — straight to the data broker. So, yeah, you get insurance coverage, but at a different price.

Rovner: Well, overlaid over all of this is consolidation, this time at the primary care level of health care. Margot, your colleague Reed Abelson had a big story this week on primary care practices being bought up by various larger players in the health care industry, including hospitals, insurance companies, pharmacy chains, and even Amazon. These larger entities say this can act as a move towards more coordinated, value-based care, which is what we say we all want. But there’s also the very real possibility that these giant, vertical, mega medical organizations can just start to name their own price. I mean, this is something that the FTC [Federal Trade Commission] in theory could go after but has been kind of loath to and that Congress could go after but has also been kind of loath to.

Sanger-Katz: Yeah, in some ways we’ve seen this movie before. There was a big wave of primary care acquisitions that happened, I think, in the 1990s by hospitals. And the hospitals learned pretty quickly that primary care doctors are kind of a money-losing proposition, and they divested a lot. But I think what Reed documented so nicely is that the entities that are buying primary care now are more diverse and they have different business strategies. So it’s not just hospitals who are sort of trying to get more patients referred to their higher-profit specialists, but it’s also Medicare Advantage insurers who benefit from being able to tell the primary care doctors to diagnose their patients with lots of diseases that generate profits for the plan, and it’s other kinds of groups that see primary care as kind of the front door to other services that can be revenue-generating. And it’s very — it will be very interesting to see what the effects of these will be and whether these will turn out to be good business decisions for these new entities and of course also whether it will turn out to be good for patient care.

Rovner: Yeah, I remember in the 1990s when hospitals were buying up doctor practices, the doctors ended up hating it because they were asked to work much harder, see patients for a shorter period of time, and some of them actually — because they were now on salary rather than being paid for each patient — were cutting back on, you know, in general, on the amount of care they were providing. And that was what I think ended up with a lot of these hospitals divesting. It didn’t work out the way the hospitals hoped it would. But as you point out, Margot, this is completely different, so we will — we will see how this moves on. All right. Let’s go back a little bit. We’re going to talk about abortion in a minute. But first, something that could prevent a lot of unintended pregnancies: On Wednesday, an advisory committee for the Food and Drug Administration — actually two advisory committees — unanimously recommended that the agency approve an over-the-counter birth control pill. This has been a long time coming here in the U.S., even though pills like these are available without prescription in much of Europe and have been for years. But while the FDA usually follows the recommendations of its advisory committees, we know that some FDA scientists have expressed concerns about over-the-counter availability. So what’s the problem with giving women easier access to something that so many depend on?

Kenen: There are trade-offs. And there are — some of the scientists at the FDA are more conservative than others about, What if the woman doesn’t understand how to take the pill properly? Things like that. I mean, obviously, if we go the over-the-counter route, as other countries are doing, there have to be very simple, easy-to-understand explanations in multiple languages. Pharmacists should be able to explain it like, you know, “You have to take it every day, and you have to take it at approximately the same time every day,” and things like that. So, you know, obviously not taking it right doesn’t protect you as much as taking it right. But there are a lot of people who will be able to get it. You know, getting a prescription is not always the easiest thing in the world. Or if you’re lucky, you just click on something and somebody calls your doctor and gets you a refill. But that doesn’t always work and not everybody has access to that, and you have to still see your doctor sometimes for renewals. So if you’re a working person who doesn’t have sick leave and you have to take time off from work every three months to get a refill or you have to hire child care or you have to take three buses — you know, it takes a whole day, and then you sit in a waiting room at a clinic. I mean, our health system is not patient-friendly.

Rovner: I was going to say, to go back to what Tami was talking about earlier — if pills are available over the counter, it’s going to depend on, you know, what your insurance is like, whether you would get it covered.

Kenen: The cost.

Rovner: That’s right. And it could end up being —

Kenen: But I don’t think the FDA is concerned about that.

Rovner: No, they’re not. That’s not their job.

Kenen: The pill is pretty safe, and these are lower-dose ones than the pills that were invented, you know, 50 years ago. These are lower-dose, safer drugs with fewer side effects. But I mean, there’s concern about the rare side effect, there’s concern about people not knowing how to take it, all that kind of stuff. But Julie just mentioned the cost of coverage is a separate issue because under the ACA it’s covered. And if it becomes over the counter, the mechanism for getting that covered is, at this point, unclear.

Sanger-Katz: But we do have a system now where, for a lot of women, obtaining birth control pills depends on being able to get a doctor’s appointment on a regular basis. I think, you know, this is not standard practice, but I do think that there are a lot of OB-GYNs who basically won’t write you for a birth control pill unless you come in on a regular basis to receive other kinds of health screenings. And I think many of them do that with good intentions because they want to make sure that people are getting Pap smears and other kinds of preventive health services. But on the other hand, it does mean that there are a lot of women who, if they don’t have time or they can’t afford to come in for regular doctor’s appointments, lose access to birth control. And I think over-the-counter pills is one way of counteracting that particular problem.

Rovner: And I think that’s exactly why so many of the medical groups are urging this. During the more than a decade-long fight over making the morning-after pill over the counter, the big hang-up was what to do about minors. Even President Obama, a major backer of women’s reproductive health rights, seemed unhappy at the idea of his then-barely teenage daughters being able to get birth control so easily and without notifying either parent. It seems unimaginable that we’re not going to have that same fight here. I mean, literally, we spent six years trying to figure out what age teens could be to safely buy morning-after pills, which are high doses of basically these birth control pills. I’m actually surprised that we haven’t really seen the minor fight yet.

Kenen: I think everyone’s waiting for somebody else to do it first. I mean, like Julie, I wasn’t expecting to hear more about age limitations, and that’ll probably come up when the FDA acts, because I think the advisory committee just wanted to — they were pretty strong saying, “Yeah, make this OTC.”

Sanger-Katz: I also think the politics around emergency contraception are a little bit different because I think that, while physicians understand that those pills are basically just high-dose birth control pills and that they work in just the same way as typical contraception, I think there’s a perception among many members of the public that because you can take them after unprotected sex, that they might be something closer to an abortion. Now, that is not true, but because I think that is a common misperception, it does lead to more discomfort around the availability of those pills, whereas birth control pills — while I think there are some people who object to their wide dissemination and certainly some who are concerned about them in the hands of children, I think they are more broadly accepted in our society.

Rovner: We obviously are going to see, and we’ll probably see fairly soon. We’re expecting, I guess, a decision from the FDA this summer, although with the morning-after pill we expected a decision from FDA that lingered on for many months, in some cases many years.

Kenen: And I think it’s at least hypothetically possible that states will not do what the FDA says. Say the FDA says they can be over the counter with no age limitations. I can see that becoming a fight in conservative states. I mean, I don’t know exactly the mechanism for how that would fall, but I could certainly think that somebody is going to dream up a mechanism so that a 12-year-old can’t get this over the counter.

Rovner: I want to move to abortion because first up is the continuing question over the fate of the abortion pill, which we get to say at this point: not the same as the emergency contraceptive pill, which, as Margot said, is just high-dosage regular birth control pills. Needless to say, that’s the one that we’re having the current court action over. And there was even more action this week, although not from that original case, which will be heard by the Court of Appeals later in this month. In West Virginia, a judge declined to throw out a case brought by GenBioPro. They are the maker of the generic version of mifepristone, the abortion pill. That generic, which accounts for more than half the market, would be rendered unapproved even under the compromise position of the Court of Appeals because it was approved after the 2016 cutoff period. Remember, the Court of Appeals said, We don’t want to cancel the approval, but we want to roll it back to the date when FDA started to loosen the restrictions on it. So, in theory, there would be no generic allowed, but that’s actually not even what the West Virginia lawsuit is about; it’s about challenging the state’s total abortion ban as violating the federal supremacy of the FDA over state laws. Joanne, that’s what sort of you were talking about now with contraceptives, too. And this is the big unanswered question: Can states basically overrule the FDA’s approval and the FDA’s approval for even an age limit?

Kenen: Well, I mean, I’m not saying they can, but I am saying that I don’t know where the question will come down. Go back to the regular birth control; I can certainly see conservative states trying to put age limits on it. And I don’t know how that’ll play out legally. But this is a different issue, and this is why the abortion pill lawsuits are not just about the abortion pill. They’re about drug safety and drug regulation in this country. The FDA is the agency we charge with deciding whether drugs are safe and good for human beings, and not the system of politicians and state legislators in 50 different states replacing their judgment. So obviously, it’s more complicated, because it’s abortion, but one of several bottom lines in this case is who gets to decide: the FDA or state legislature.

Rovner: And right: Do states get to overrule what the federal Food and Drug Administration says? Well, I —

Kenen: Remember, some states have had — you know, California’s had stricter regulations on several health things, you know, and that’s been allowed that you could have higher ceilings for various health — you know, carcinogenics and so forth. But they haven’t fundamentally challenged the authority of the FDA.

Rovner: Yet. Well, since confusion is our theme of the week, also this week a group of independent abortion clinics led by Whole Woman’s Health, which operates in several states, filed suit against the FDA, basically trying to add Virginia, Kansas, and Montana to the other 18 states that sued to force FDA to further reduce the agency’s current restrictions on mifepristone. A federal judge in Washington state ruled — the same day that Texas judge did that mifepristone should have its approval removed — judge in Washington said the drug should become even more easily available. In the real world, though, this is just sowing so much confusion that nobody knows what’s allowed and what isn’t, which I think is kind of the point for opponents, right? They just want to make everybody as confused as possible, if they can’t actually ban it.

Sanger-Katz: I think they actually want to ban it. I mean, I think that’s their primary goal. I’m sure there are some that will settle for confusion as a secondary outcome. I think just this whole mess of cases really highlights what a weird moment we are, where we’re having individual judges and individual jurisdictions making determinations about whether or not the FDA can or can’t approve the safety and efficacy of drugs. You know, as Joanne said, we’ve just had a system in this country since the foundation of the FDA where they are the scientific experts and they make determinations and those determinations affect drug availability and legal status around the country. And this is a very unusual situation where we’re seeing federal courts in different jurisdictions making their own judgments about what the FDA should do. And I think the Texas judge that struck down the approval of mifepristone, at least temporarily, has come in for a lot of criticism. But what the judge in Washington state did is sort of a flavor of the same thing. It’s telling the FDA, you know, how they should do their business. And it’s a weird thing.

Rovner: It is. Well, one last thing this week, since we’re talking about confusion, and the public is definitely confused, according to two different polls that are out this week — on the one hand, a Washington Post-ABC News poll found that a full two-thirds of respondents say mifepristone, the abortion pill, should stay on the market, and more than half say they disagree with the Supreme Court’s overturn of Roe v. Wade, including 70% of independents and more than a third of Republicans. Yet, in focus groups in April, more than a third of independents couldn’t differentiate Democrats’ position on abortion from Republicans’. As reported by Vox, one participant said, quote, “I really haven’t basically heard anything about which party is leaning toward it and which one isn’t.” When pressed, she said, “If I had to guess, I would say Democrat would probably be against it and Republican would probably be for it.” Another participant said she thought that Joe Biden helped get the Supreme Court judges who overturned Roe. We really do live in a bubble, don’t we? I think that was sort of the most mind-blowing thing I’ve read since — all the months since Roe got overturned, that there are people who care about this issue who have no idea where anybody stands.

Sanger-Katz: I think it’s just a truth about our political system that there are a lot of Americans who are what the political scientists call low-information voters. These are people who are just not following the news very closely and not following politics very closely. And they may have a certain set of opinions about issues of the day, but I think it is a big challenge to get those people aware of where candidates stand on issues of concern to them and to get them activated. And it doesn’t really surprise me that independent voters are the ones who seem to be confused about where the parties are, because they’re probably the least plugged into politics generally. And so, for Democrats, it does seem like this lack of information is potentially an opportunity for them, because it seems like when you ask voters what they want on abortion, they want things that are more aligned with Democratic politicians’ preferences than Republicans’. And so it strikes me that perhaps some of those people in the focus group who didn’t know who stood for what, maybe those are gettable voters for the Democratic Party. But I think — you know, we’re about to go into a very heated campaign season, you know, as we go into the presidential primaries and then the general election in which there are going to be a lot of ads, a lot of news coverage. And, you know, I think abortion is very likely to be a prominent issue during the campaigns. And I think it is almost certainly going to be a major goal of the Biden presidential reelection campaign to try to make sure that these people know where Biden stands relative to abortion, because it is an issue that so many voters agree with him on.

Rovner: And it makes you see, I mean, there’s a lot of Republicans who are trying to sort of finesse this issue now and say, you know, “Oh, well, we’re going to restrict it, but we’re not going to ban it,” or, “We have all these exceptions” that are, of course, in practice, you can’t use. Obviously, these are the kinds of voters who might be attracted to that. So we will obviously see this as it goes on.

Kenen: But Julie, do you remember whether they were actually voters? Because I had the same reaction to you: like, of all the things to not be sure of, that one was pretty surprising. But we also know that in places like Kansas where, you know, where there are not that many Democrats, these referenda won. Voters have supported abortion rights in the 2022 elections and in these state referenda. So independents must be voting with the —

Rovner: I was going to say, I think if you’re doing —

Kenen: Something isn’t totally — something is not totally adding up there.

Rovner: If you’re doing a focus group for politics, one presumes that you get voters. So, I mean, I think that was — that was the point of the focus group. But yeah, it’s —

Kenen: Or people who say they’re voters.

Rovner: Or people who say they’re voters. That is a different issue. All right. Well, something not that confusing: Now it’s time for our extra credit segment. That’s when we each recommend a story we read this week we think you should read too. As always, don’t worry if you miss it. We will post the links on the podcast page at kffhealthnews.org and in our show notes on your phone or other mobile device. Tami, why don’t you go first this week?

Luhby: OK. Well, I picked a story from CNN by my colleagues on the health team. It’s titled “Because of Florida Abortion Laws, She Carried Her Baby to Term Knowing He Would Die,” by Elizabeth Cohen, Carma Hassan, and Amanda Musa. And I have to say that when I first read this story, I couldn’t get through it, because it was so upsetting. And then when I selected it as an extra credit, I had to read it in full. But it’s about a family in Florida whose son was born without kidneys. They knew that he was going to die. And it’s about all of the effects from everything from, you know, the mother, Deborah Dorbert, on her physically and emotionally. But it also, you know, talked about the family and, you know, the effect on the marriage and the effect — which was just so upsetting — was on the 4-year-old son, who became very attached. I don’t think they even knew — well, it wasn’t a girl. It was actually a boy. But for some reason, this older son felt that it was a girl and just kept saying, like, “My sister is going to do X, Y, Z.” And, you know, how did the parents break it to him? Because he saw that his mother was, you know, pregnant and getting larger. And, you know, it was just figuring out how to break it to him that no baby was coming home. So the details are heart-wrenching. The quotes in the third paragraph: “‘He gasped for air a couple of times when I held him,’ said Dorbert. ‘I watched my child take his first breath, and I held him as he took his last one.’” So, you know, these are things that, you know — and we just talked about how the states are arguing over what exceptions there should be, if any, you know, and these are the stories that the legislators don’t think about when they pass these laws.

Rovner: I think I said this before because we’ve had a story like this almost every week. This one was particularly wrenching. But I think the one thing that all these stories are doing is helping people understand, particularly men, that there are complications in pregnancy, that they’re not that rare, that, you know, that they sort of throw off and say, “Oh, well, that’s, you know, one in a million,” — It’s not one in a million. It’s like one in a thousand. That’s a lot of people. So I mean, that’s why there are a lot of these stories, because there are a lot of pregnancies that don’t go as expected.

Luhby: Right. And it really shows the chilling effect on doctors because, you know, you would say, “Oh, it’s simple: life of the mother or, you know, life of the fetus” or something like that. That seems pretty straightforward, but it isn’t. And these doctors, in cases where, you know, other cases where it is the life of the mother, which seem, again, very straightforward, the doctors are not willing to do anything because they’re afraid.

Rovner: I know. Joanne.

Kenen: This is a story from The Baltimore Banner that has a very long title. It’s by Hallie Miller and Adam Willis, and it’s called “Baltimore Isn’t Accessible for People With Disabilities. Fixing It Would Cost Over $650 Million.” Baltimore is not that big a city. $650 million is a lot of curbs and barriers. And there’s also a lot of gun violence in Baltimore. If you drive around Baltimore, and I work there a few days a week, you see lots of people on walkers and scooters and wheelchairs because many of them are survivors of gun violence. And you see them struggling. And there were quotes from people saying they, you know, were afraid walking near the harbor that they would fall in because there wasn’t a path for them. It is not invisible, but we treat it like it’s invisible. And it’s been many years since the Americans with Disabilities Act was passed, and we still don’t have it right. It’s a — this one isn’t confusion like everything else we talked about today. I loved Margot’s phrase about confusion as a secondary outcome. I think you should write a novel with that title. But it’s — this isn’t confusion. This is just not doing the right thing for people who are — we’re just not protecting or valuing.

Rovner: And I’d say for whom there are laws that this should be happening. Margot.

Sanger-Katz: I had another story about abortion. This one was in The New Yorker, called “The Problem With Planned Parenthood,” by Eyal Press. The story sort of looked at Planned Parenthood, you know, which is kind of the largest abortion provider in the country. It’s — I mean, it’s really a network of providers. They have all these affiliates. They’re often seen as being more monolithic than perhaps they are. But this story argued that people who were operating independent abortion clinics, who do represent a lot of the abortion providers in the country as well, have felt that Planned Parenthood has been too cautious legally, too afraid of running afoul of state laws, and so that has led them to be very conservative and also too conservative from the perspective of business, and that there is a view that Planned Parenthood is not serving the role that it could be by expanding into areas where abortion is less available. I thought it was just interesting to hear these criticisms and hoped to understand that the community of abortion providers are, you know, they’re diverse and they have different perspectives on how abortion access should work and what kinds of services should be provided in different settings. And they also view each other as business competition in some cases. I mean, a lot of the complaints in this article had to do with Planned Parenthood opening clinics near to independent clinics and kind of taking away the business from them, making it harder for them to survive and operate. Anyway, I thought it was a very interesting window into these debates, and it did mesh with some of my reporting experience, particularly around the legal cautiousness. I did a story before the Dobbs decision came down from the Supreme Court where Planned Parenthood in several states had just stopped offering abortions even before the court had ruled, because they anticipated that the court would rule and they just didn’t want to make any mistake about running afoul of these laws such that, you know, women were denied care that was still legal in the days leading up to the Supreme Court decision.

Rovner: Yeah, it’s a really good story. Well, my story is kind of tangentially about abortion. It’s from Slate, and it’s called “Not Every Man Will Be as Dumb as Marcus Silva,” by Moira Donegan and Mark Joseph Stern. And it’s about a case from Texas, of course, that we talked about a couple of weeks ago, where an ex-husband is suing two friends of his ex-wife for wrongful death, for helping her get an abortion. Well, now the two friends have filed a countersuit claiming that the ex-husband knew his wife was going to have an abortion beforehand because he found the pill in her purse and he put it back so that he could use the threat of a lawsuit to force her to stay with him. It feels like a soap opera, except it is happening in real life. And my first thought when I read this is that it’s going to make some great episode of “Dateline” or “20/20.” That is our show, as always.

Kenen: Or, not “The Bachelor.”

Rovner: Yeah, but not “The Bachelor.” That is our show. As always, if you enjoy the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left us a review; that helps other people find us too. Special thanks, as always, to our ever-patient producer, Francis Ying. Also, as always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org. Or you can tweet me. I’m still there. I’m at @jrovner. Joanne?

Kenen: @JoanneKenen.

Rovner: Tami.

Luhby: @Luhby.

Rovner: Margot.

Sanger-Katz: @sangerkatz.

Rovner: We will be back in your feed next week, hopefully with a little less confusion. Until then, be healthy.

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Julie Rovner is chief Washington correspondent and host of KFF Health News’ weekly health policy news podcast, “What the Health?” A noted expert on health policy issues, Julie is the author of the critically praised reference book “Health Care Politics and Policy A to Z,” now in its third edition.

The partisan fight in Congress over how to raise the nation’s debt ceiling to prevent a default has accelerated, as the U.S. Treasury predicted the borrowing limit could be reached as soon as June 1. On the table, potentially, are large cuts to federal spending programs, including major health programs.

Meanwhile, legislators in two conservative states, South Carolina and Nebraska, narrowly declined to pass very strict abortion bans, as some Republicans are apparently getting cold feet about the impact on care for pregnant women in their states.

This week’s panelists are Julie Rovner of KFF Health News, Joanne Kenen of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico, Rachel Cohrs of Stat, and Alice Miranda Ollstein of Politico.

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Alice Miranda Ollstein
Politico

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Rachel Cohrs
Stat News

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Read Rachel's stories

Joanne Kenen
Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico

@JoanneKenen

Read Joanne's stories

Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:

• The United States is approaching its debt limit — much sooner than expected. And it is unclear how, or if, lawmakers can resolve their differences over the budget before the nation defaults on its debts. Details of the hastily constructed House Republican proposal are coming to light, including apparently inadvertent potential cuts to veterans’ benefits and a lack of exemptions protecting those who are disabled from losing Medicaid and nutrition benefits under proposed work requirements.
• A seemingly routine markup of a key Senate drug pricing package devolved this week as it became clear the committee’s leadership team, under Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.), had not completed its due diligence to ensure members were informed and on board with the legislation. The Senate Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee plans to revisit the package next week, hoping to send it to the full Senate for a vote.
• In more abortion news, Republican lawmakers in North Carolina have agreed on a new, 12-week ban, which would further cut already bare-bones access to the procedure in the South. And federal investigations into two hospitals that refused emergency care to a pregnant woman in distress are raising the prospect of yet another abortion-related showdown over states’ rights before the Supreme Court.
• The number of deaths from covid-19 continues to dwindle. The public health emergency expires next week, and mask mandates are being dropped by health care facilities. There continue to be issues tallying cases and guiding prevention efforts. What’s clear is the coronavirus is not now and may never be gone, but things are getting better from a public health standpoint.
• The surgeon general has issued recommendations to combat the growing public health crisis of loneliness. Structural problems that contribute, like the lack of paid leave and few communal gathering spaces, may be ripe for government intervention. But while health experts frame loneliness as a societal-level problem, the federal government’s advice largely targets individual behaviors.

Plus, for “extra credit,” the panelists suggest health policy stories they read this week they think you should read, too:

Julie Rovner: The Washington Post’s “Dog-Walking Injuries May Be More Common Than You Think,” by Lindsey Bever.

Joanne Kenen: The Atlantic’s “There Is No Stopping the Allergy Apocalypse,” by Yasmin Tayag.

Rachel Cohrs: ProPublica’s “This Pharmacist Said Prisoners Wouldn’t Feel Pain During Lethal Injection. Then Some Shook and Gasped for Air,” by Lauren Gill and Daniel Moritz-Rabson.

Alice Miranda Ollstein: The Wall Street Journal’s “Patients Lose Access to Free Medicines Amid Spat Between Drugmakers, Health Plans,” by Peter Loftus and Joseph Walker.

Also mentioned in this week’s episode:

• The New York Times’ “Surgeon General: We Have Become a Lonely Nation. It’s Time to Fix That,” by Vivek H. Murthy.
• “What the Health?” podcast, July 7, 2022: “A Chat With the Surgeon General on Health Worker Burnout.”
• KFF Health News’ “After Idaho’s Strict Abortion Ban, OB-GYNs Stage a Quick Exodus,” by Sarah Varney.
• Politico’s “‘You Can’t Hide Things’: Feinstein, Old Age and Removing Senators,” by Joanne Kenen.

Click to open the transcript

Transcript: Health Programs Are at Risk as Debt Ceiling Cave-In Looms

KFF Health News’ ‘What the Health?’

Episode Title: Health Programs Are at Risk as Debt Ceiling Cave-In Looms

Episode Number: 296

Published: May 4, 2023

[Editor’s note: This transcript, generated using transcription software, has been edited for style and clarity.]

Julie Rovner: Hello and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Julie Rovner, chief Washington correspondent at KFF Health News. And I’m joined by some of the best and smartest health reporters in Washington. We’re taping this week on Thursday, May 4, at 10 a.m. As always, news happens fast and things might have changed by the time you hear this. So here we go. We are joined today via video conference by Joanne Kenen of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico.

Joanne Kenen: Hey, everybody.

Rovner: Rachel Cohrs of Stat News.

Rachel Cohrs: Good morning.

Rovner: And Alice Miranda Ollstein of Politico.

Ollstein: Hello.

Rovner: So plenty of news this week. We’re going to dive right in. We’re going to start again this week with the nation’s debt limit, which Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen warned this week could be reached as soon as June 1. That’s a lot earlier than I think most people had been banking on. And if Congress doesn’t act to raise it by then, the U.S. could default on its debts for the first time in history. Do we have any feel yet for how this gets untangled now that we know — I think there are, what, eight days left where both the House and the Senate will be in session?

Ollstein: You said it caught all of us by surprise. It seems to have caught lawmakers by surprise as well. They seem to have thought they had a lot more time to fight and blow smoke at one another, and they really don’t. And there has not been a clear path forward. There are efforts to get Mitch McConnell more involved. He has sort of said, “Ah, you people figure this out. You know, whatever House Republicans and the White House can agree on, the Senate will pass.” And he’s been trying to stay out of it. But now both Republicans and Democrats want him to weigh in. He’s seen as maybe a little more reasonable than some of the House Republicans to some of the players, and so —

Rovner: He may be one of the few Republicans who understands that it would be very, very bad to default.

Ollstein: Right. You have a lot of House Republicans saying it wouldn’t be so bad — the tough medicine for Washington spending, etc. So, you know, if I were to bet money, which I wouldn’t, I would bet on some sort of short-term punt; I mean, we’re really coming up to the deadline, and that’s what Congress loves to do.

Rovner: Yeah, I do too.

Kenen: I agree with Alice. You know, I think if the deadline had been a couple of months from now — they really didn’t want to do a punt. I mean, I think they wanted to walk up to the cliff and cut some kind of deal at the last hour. But I think this caught everybody off guard, including possibly Janet Yellen. So I think it’s much more likely there’ll be a short-term postponement. I think the Democrats would like to tie it to the regular budget talks for the end of the fiscal year. I’m not sure the Republicans will consider September 30 short-term. It might be shorter than that. Of course, we could have another one. But I think Alice’s instincts are right here.

Rovner: Yeah, I do too. I mean, the best thing Congress does is kick the can down the road. They do it every year with all kinds of things. Sorry, Rachel, I interrupted you.

Cohrs: Oh, no, that’s all right. I was just going to flag that the date to watch next week is May 9, when I think they’re all supposed to kind of get in a room together and start this conversation. So I think we’ll hopefully have a readout. I don’t know that they’re going to solve everything in that meeting, but we’ll at least get a sense of where everyone’s coming from and just how acrimonious things really are. So, yeah, those will kick off in earnest.

Rovner: Yeah. Well, one thing the Democrats are talking about is a discharge petition in the House, which is a rarely successful but not all that little-used way to bring a bill to the floor over the objections of the party in charge. Is there any chance that this is going to work this time?

Kenen: That’s one reason the Republicans might not want an extension, because they probably couldn’t do it in the next two or three weeks. There’s a slight chance they could do it in early to mid-June. The Democrats need five Republicans to sign on to that. I would think that if any Republicans are willing to sign on to that, they’re not going to say it in public, so we won’t know who they are, but the chances of it working improve if there’s an extension; the chances of it working are still not great, but I don’t think it’s impossible. I do not think it’s impossible, because there are Republicans who understand that defaulting is not a good idea.

Rovner: This has been painted this week as, Oh, this is a secret idea. It’s like, it’s not, but the actual discharge petition, you get to sign it not anonymously, but no one knows who’s signing on. It’s not like co-sponsoring a regular bill.

Kenen: But stuff gets out. I mean, there’s no such thing as a secret on the Hill.

Rovner: But technically, when you sign it, it’s not an obvious public thing that you’re supporting it, so we will — we’ll have to see. Well, we know that Republicans are demanding deep, in some cases very deep, cuts to federal spending with their bill to raise the debt ceiling. We’re finding out just how deep some of the cuts would be. One possible piece of fallout I think Republicans didn’t bargain for: They say they intended to exempt veterans from the cuts, but apparently the bill doesn’t actually do that, which has already prompted cries of outrage from very powerful veterans groups. This is the danger of these really broadly written bills, right, is that you can sort of actually accidentally end up sweeping in things you didn’t mean to.

Cohrs: Right. Well, this bill came together very quickly, and Kevin McCarthy was dealing with a lot of competing factions and trying to make everyone happy on issues like energy credits, that kind of thing. And obviously this didn’t get attention before. And I think that that’s just kind of a symptom that isn’t infrequent in Washington, where things come together really quickly, and sometimes there are some unintended consequences, but I think that’s one of the functions of kind of the news cycle in Washington especially, is to bring attention to some of these things before they become law. So the rhetoric has been very fiery, but again, there’s a possibility that it could be worked out at a later date if for some reason the final deal ends up looking something like the Republican bill, which is not necessarily the case.

Rovner: Once upon a time — and we’ll talk about this next — we had something called regular order, where bills went through the committee process, there was a committee report, and people had time to look at them before they came to the floor. And now it’s sort of like a fish. If you leave it out too long, it’s going to start to smell. So you got to catch it and pass it right away. Well, before we get to that, another change that those people who wrote the Republican bill probably didn’t intend: The requirement for states to institute work requirements for those who get Medicaid and/or food stamps — something that states cannot opt out of, we are told — does not include exemptions for people with disabilities. In other words, they would be required to work if they are of the age. Even those who’ve been getting, you know, disability benefits for years would have to be recertified as quote “unfit to work” by a doctor, or else they would have their benefits terminated. I would imagine that states would be among those joining the uproar with this. They have enough to do with redeterminations right now from people who got on Medicaid during the pandemic. The last thing they need is to have to basically redetermine every single person who’s already been determined to have a disability.

Kenen: And it’s a burden for the disabled too, even if the states are willing to do it. Bureaucracies are hard to deal with, and people would get lost in the shuffle. There’s absolutely no question that disabled people would get lost in the shuffle given the system they’ve set up.

Ollstein: Yes, this is a perfect example of how people fall through the cracks, and especially because a lot of the mechanisms that states set up to do this, we’ve seen, are not fully accessible for people with disabilities. Some of them have audio-only options. Some of them have online-only options. It’s very hard for people to — even if they know about it, which they might not — to navigate this and become certified. And so there is a fair amount of data out there that the projected savings from policies like work requirements don’t come from more people working; they come from people getting kicked off the rolls who maybe shouldn’t be, should be fully eligible for benefits.

Kenen: And it’s not just physical disability. I mean, there’s all sorts of developmental disabilities — people who really aren’t going to be able to navigate the system. It’s just — it may not be what they intended, it may be what they intended, who knows. But it’s not a viable approach.

Rovner: Yeah. Meanwhile, even if the Democrats could sneak a bill out of the House with a little bit of moderate Republican support, there’s no guarantee it could get through the Senate, where West Virginia’s Joe Manchin says he supports at least some budget cuts and work requirements and where the absence of California’s Dianne Feinstein, who is 89 and has been away from Washington since February, trying to recover from a case of shingles, has loomed large in a body where the elected majority only has 51 votes. Joanne, you wrote about the sticky problem of senators of an advanced age. Feinstein is far from the first, but is there anything that can be done about this when, you know, one of our older senators is out for a long time?

Kenen: There is no institutional solution to an incapacitated senator. And in addition to the magazine piece I wrote about this yesterday for Politico Magazine, I also wrote about last night in Politico Nightly sort of going back to the history until the 1940s. I mean, there have been people, a handful, but people out for like three or four years. The only tool is an expulsion vote, and that is not used. You need two-thirds vote, and you can’t get that. It was used during the Civil War, where there were I think it was 14 senators from Confederate states who didn’t sort of get that they were supposed to leave once the Civil War started, so they got expelled. Other than that, there’s only been one case, and it was for treason, in the 1790s. So they’re not going to start expelling senators who have strokes or who have dementia or who have other ailments. That’s just not going to happen. But that means they’re stuck with them. And it’s not just Feinstein. I mean, there have been other impaired senators, and there will be more impaired senators in the future. There’s no equivalent to the 25th Amendment, for which the vice president and the cabinet can remove a president. The Senate has no mechanism other than behind-the-scenes cajoling. And, you know, we have seen Dianne Feinstein — she didn’t even announce she wasn’t running for reelection until other people announced they were running for her seat. But it’s like 50-50 Senate — if it’s 47-53 and one is sick, it doesn’t matter so much. If it’s 50-50 or 51-49, it matters a lot.

Rovner: Yeah, and that’s what I was going to say. I mean, you and I remember when Tim Johnson from South Dakota had, what was it, an aneurysm?

Kenen: I think he had a stroke, right?

Rovner: Yeah. It took him a year to come back, which he did eventually.

Kenen: Well, we both covered Strom Thurmond, who, you know, was clearly not —

Rovner: —he was not all there —

Kenen: — situational awareness for quite a few years. I mean, it was very clear, you know, as I mention in this story, that, you know, instead of the staff following his orders, he was following the staff’s orders and he was not cognizant of Senate proceedings or what was going on.

Rovner: Yeah, that’s for sure.

Kenen: But there also are some who are really fine. I mean, we know some who are 80, 88 — you know, in their 80s who are totally alert. And so an age cutoff is also problematic. That doesn’t work either.

Rovner: Right. Ted Kennedy was, you know, right there until he wasn’t. So I’m amazed at the at how some of these 80-something-year-old senators have more energy than I do. Well, elsewhere on Capitol Hill, we talked about the bipartisan drug price bill last week in the Senate that was supposed to be marked up and sent to the floor this week, which did not happen. Rachel, how did what should have been a fairly routine committee vote get so messed up?

Cohrs: Yeah, it was a — it was a meltdown. We haven’t seen something like this in quite a — a couple of years, I think, on the Hill, where Chairman Bernie Sanders’ first major, you know, health care markup. And I think it just became clear that they had not done due diligence down the dais and had buy-in on these bills, but also the amendment process, which sounds like a procedural complaint but it really — there were some substantive changes in these amendments, and it was obvious from the markup that senators were confused about who supported what and what could get the support of the caucus. And those conversations in the Lamar Alexander, you know, iteration of this committee happened before. So I think it, you know, was a lesson certainly for everyone that there does need to be — I don’t know, it’s hard to draw the line between kind of regular order, where every senator can offer an amendment, and what passes. And it’s just another symptom of that issue in Congress where even sometimes popular things that an individual senator might support — they could pass on their own — that throwing off the dynamics of packages that they’re trying to put together. So I think they are hoping to give it another shot next week after a hearing with executives from insulin manufacturers and pharmacy benefit managers. But it was pretty embarrassing this week.

Rovner: Yeah. I was going to say, I mean normally these things are negotiated out behind the scenes so by the time you actually — if you’re going to have a markup; sometimes markups get canceled at the last minute because they haven’t been able to work things out behind the scenes. Correct me if I’m wrong, but Bernie Sanders has not been chairman before of a major legislative committee, right? He was chairman of the Budget Committee, but they don’t do this kind of take up a bill and make amendments.

Kenen: I don’t remember, but he was a lead author of the bipartisan veterans bill. So he has — it’s probably his biggest legislative achievement in the Senate. And that was a major bipartisan bill. So he does know how these things work.

Rovner: Right. He knows how to negotiate.

Kenen: It just didn’t work.

Rovner: Yeah, I think this came as a surprise — a committee like this that’s really busy with legislation and that does legislation that frequently gets amended and changed before it goes to the floor. I am told he was indeed chairman of Veterans’ Affairs, but they don’t do as much legislation as the HELP Committee. I think this was perhaps his first outing. Maybe he learned some important lessons about how this committee actually works and how it should go on. All right. Rachel, you said that there’s going to be a hearing and then they’re going to try this markup again. So we’ll see if they get through this in the May work period, as they call it.

Kenen: Maybe they’ll come out holding hands.

Rovner: I want to turn to abortion. It seems that maybe, possibly, the tide in states is turning against passage of the broadest possible bans. In the same day last week we saw sweeping abortion restrictions turned back, though barely, by lawmakers in both South Carolina and Nebraska. And in North Carolina, where Republicans just got a supermajority big enough to override the state’s Democratic governor’s veto, lawmakers are now looking at a 12-week ban rather than the six-week or total ban that was expected. Alice, is this a trend or kind of an anomaly?

Ollstein: Every state is different, and you still have folks pushing for total or near-total bans in a lot of states. And I will say that in North Carolina specifically, a 12-week ban will have a big impact, because that is the state where a lot of people throughout the entire South are going right now, so they’re getting incoming folks from Texas, Oklahoma, Alabama, Louisiana. So it’s one of the sort of last havens in the entire southeast area, and so even a restriction to 12 weeks, you know, we know that the vast majority of abortions happen before that point, but with fewer and fewer places for people to go, wait times are longer, people are pushed later into pregnancy who want to terminate a pregnancy sooner. And so it could be a big deal. This has also been kind of a crazy saga in North Carolina, with a single lawmaker switching parties and that being what is likely to enable this to pass.

Rovner: Yeah, a Democrat turned Republican for reasons that I think have not been made totally clear yet, but giving the Republicans this veto-proof majority.

Kenen: They’ve got the veto-proof majority. I did read one report saying there was one vote in question. It might be this lawmaker who turned, whether she’s for 12-week or whether she’s for 15 or 20 or whatever else. So it’ll certainly pass. I don’t have firsthand knowledge of this, but I did read one story that said there’s some question about they might be one short of the veto-proof majority. So we’ll just have to wait and see.

Rovner: Yeah, North Carolina is obviously a state that’s continuing. So my colleague and sometime podcast panelist Sarah Varney has a story this week out of Idaho, where doctors who treat pregnant women are leaving the state and hospitals are closing maternity wards because they can no longer staff them. It’s a very good story, but what grabbed me most was a line from an Idaho state representative who voted for the ban, Republican Mark Sauter. He told Sarah, quote, “he hadn’t thought very much about the state abortion ban other than I’m a pro-life guy and I ran that way.” He said it wasn’t until he had dinner with the wife of a hospital emergency room doctor that he realized what the ban was doing to doctors and hospitals in the state and to pregnant women who were not trying to have abortions. Are we starting to see more of that, Alice? I’ve seen, you know, a few Republicans here and there saying that — now that they’re seeing what’s playing out — they’re not so sure these really dramatic bans are the way to go.

Ollstein: Yeah, I will say we are seeing more and more of that. I’ve done some reporting on Tennessee, where some of the Republicans who voted for the state’s near-total ban are expressing regret and saying that there have been unintended consequences for people in obstetric emergency situations. You know, they said they didn’t realize how this would be a chilling effect on doctors providing care in more than just so-called elective abortion situations. But it does seem that those Republicans who are speaking out in that way are still in the majority. The party overall is still pushing for these restrictions. They’re also accusing medical groups of misinterpreting them. So we are seeing this play out. For instance, you know, in Tennessee, there was a push to include more exceptions in the ban, alter enforcement so that doctors wouldn’t be afraid to perform care in emergency situations, and a lot of that was rejected. What they ended up passing didn’t go as far as what the medical groups say is needed to protect pregnant people.

Rovner: It’s important to point out that the groups on the other side, the anti-abortion groups, have not backed off. They are still — and these are the groups that have supported most of these pro-life Republicans who are in these state legislatures. So were they to, you know, even support more exemptions that would, you know, turn them against important supporters that they have, so I think it’s this —

Ollstein: —right—

Rovner: —sort of balancing act going on.

Ollstein: Plus, we’ve seen even in the states that have exemptions, people are not able to use them in a lot of circumstances. That’s why you have a lot of pro-abortion rights groups, including medical groups, saying exemptions may give the appearance of being more compassionate but are not really navigable in practice.

Rovner: Right. I mean, we’ve had all these stories every week of how near death does a pregnant woman have to be before doctors are not afraid to treat her because they will be dragged into court or put in jail?

Ollstein: Right.

Rovner: So this continues. Well, the other big story of the week has to do with exactly that. The federal Department of Health and Human Services has opened an investigation into two hospitals, one each in Missouri and Kansas, that federal officials say violated the federal emergency medical care law by refusing to perform an abortion on a woman in medical distress. If the hospitals don’t prove that they will comply with the law, they could face fines or worse, be banned from participation in Medicare and Medicaid. I can’t help but think this is the kind of fight that’s going to end up at the Supreme Court, right? I mean, this whole, if you have a state law that conflicts with federal law, what do you do?

Ollstein: Yeah, we’re seeing that both in the EMTALA space [Emergency Medical Treatment and Labor Act] and in the drug space. We’re seeing a lot of state-federal conflicts being tested in court, sort of for the first time in the abortion question. So we also, in addition to these new federal actions, you know, we still have cases playing out related to abortion and emergency care in a few other states. So I think this will continue, and I think that you’re really seeing that exactly the letter of the law is one thing, and the chilling effect is another thing. And how doctors point out if a lot of these state abortion bans are structured around what’s called an affirmative defense, which means that doctors have to cross their fingers and provide the care and know that if they get sued, they can mount a defense that, you know, this was necessary to save someone’s life. Now, doctors point out that a lot of people are not willing to do that and a lot of people are afraid to do that; they don’t have the resources to do it. Plus, in the medical space, when you apply for licenses or things in the future, it doesn’t just say, “Were you ever convicted of something?” It says, “Were you ever charged with something?” So even if the charges are dropped, it still remains on their record forever.

Rovner: Yeah, and they have malpractice premiums. I mean, there’s a whole lot of things that this will impact. Well, I want to talk about covid, because we haven’t talked about covid in a couple of weeks. It is still with us. Ask people who went to the big CDC conference last week; I think they’ve had, what, 35 cases out of that conference? Yet the public health emergency officially ends on May 11, which will trigger all manner of changes. We’re already seeing states disenrolling people for Medicaid now that they’re allowed to redetermine eligibility again, including some people who say they’re still eligible, as we talked about a little bit earlier. We’re also seeing vaccine mandates lifted. Does this mean that the pandemic is really over? It obviously is a major signal, right, even if covid is still around?

Kenen: It means it’s legally over. It doesn’t mean it’s biologically over. But it is clearly better. I mean, will we have more surges next winter or over some kind of holiday gathering? You know, it’s not gone and it’s probably never going to be gone. However, we also don’t know how many cases there really are because not everybody tests or they don’t realize that cold is covid or they test at home and don’t report it. So the caseload is murky, but we sure note that the death toll is the lowest it’s been in two years, and I think it’s under 200 a day — and I’d have to double check that — but it’s really dropped and it’s continuing to drop. So even though there’s concern about whether we still need some of these protections, and I personally think we do need some of them in some places, the bottom line is, are people dying the way they were dying? No. That is — you know, I’ve watched that death toll drop over the last couple of weeks; it’s consistent and it’s significant. And so we should all be grateful for that. But whether it stays low without some of these measures and access to testing and access to shots and — and people are confused, you know, like, Oh, the shots aren’t going to be free or they are going to be free or I don’t need one. I mean, that whole murkiness on the part of the public — I mean, I have friends who are quite well aware of things. I mean, I have friends who just got covid the other day and, you know, said, “Well, you know, I’m not going to — I’m not really, really sick, so I don’t need Paxlovid.” And I said, “You know, you really need to call your doctor and talk about that.” So her doctor gave her Paxlovid — so she actually had a risk factor, so, two risk factors. So it’s not over, but we also have to acknowledge that it’s better than many people thought it would be by May 2023.

Rovner: Yeah, I know. I mean, the big complaints I’m seeing are people with chronic illnesses who worry that masks are no longer required in health care facilities, and that that seems to upset them.

Kenen: I mean, I think if you were to ask a doctor, I would hope that you could ask your doctor to put on a mask in a certain situation. And that doesn’t work in a hospital where lots of people around, but the doctors I’ve been to recently have also worn masks and —

Rovner: Yeah, mine too.

Kenen: Luckily, we do know now that if you wear a good mask, an N95, properly, it is not perfect, but you still can protect yourself by wearing a mask. You know, I take public transport and I wear masks in public transport, and I still avoid certain settings, and I worry more about the people who are at risk and they don’t understand that the shots are still free; they don’t know how to get medication; they don’t — there’s just a lot of stuff out there that we have communicated so poorly. And the lack of a public health emergency, with both the resources and the messaging — I worry about that.

Rovner: And as we pointed out, people losing their health insurance, whether, you know —

Kenen: That’s a whole other —

Rovner: Yeah, rightly or not. I mean, you know, whether they’re no longer eligible.

Kenen: Most are, but they’re still, you know — falling through the cracks is a major theme in American health care.

Rovner: It is. Well, finally this week, the U.S. surgeon general, Vivek Murthy, wants us to be less lonely. Really. The health effects of loneliness have been a signature issue for Dr. Murthy. We talked about it at some length in a podcast last summer. I will be sure to add the link to that in the show notes. But now, instead of just describing how loneliness is bad for your health — and trust me, loneliness is bad for your health — the surgeon general’s office has issued a new bulletin with how Americans can make themselves less lonely. It’s not exactly rocket science. It recommends spending more time in person with friends and less time online. But does highlighting the issue make it easier to deal with? I mean, this is not one of the traditional public health issues that we’ve talked about over the years.

Ollstein: I’m very interested to see where this conversation goes, because it’s already sort of feeling like a lot of other public health conversations in the U.S. in that they describe this huge, existential, population-level problem, but the solutions pushed are very individual and very like, you have to change your lifestyle, you have to log off, you have to join more community groups. And it’s like, if this is a massive societal problem, shouldn’t there be bigger, broader policy responses?

Kenen: You can’t mandate someone going out for coffee —

Ollstein: —exactly—

Kenen: —three times a week. I mean, this one —

Ollstein: Exactly. You can’t boostrap loneliness.

Kenen: This one, I think — I think it validates people’s feelings. I mean, I think people who are feeling isolated —I mean, we had loneliness before the pandemic, but the pandemic has changed how we live and how we socialize. And if — I think it’s sort of telling people, you know, if you’re feeling this way, it is real and it’s common, and other people are feeling that way, too, so pick up the phone. And maybe those of us who are more extroverted will reach out to people we know who are more isolated. So, I mean, I’m not sure what HHS or the surgeon general can do to make people spend time with one another.

Ollstein: Well, there are structural factors in loneliness. There are economic factors. There is, you know, a lack of paid time off. There are a lack of public spaces where people can gather, you know, in a safe and pleasant way. You know, other countries do tons of things. You know, there are programs in other countries that encourage teens, that finance and support teens forming garage bands, in Scandinavian countries. I mean, there are there are policy responses, and maybe some of them are already being tried out at like the city level in a lot of places. But I’m not hearing a lot other than telling people to make individual life changes, which may not be possible.

Rovner: But although I was going to point out that one of the reasons that this is becoming a bigger issue is that the number of Americans living alone has gone up. You know, and again, Joanne, this was way before the pandemic, but it’s more likely — people are more in a position to be lonely, basically. I mean, it’s going to affect a larger part of the population, so —

Kenen: And some of the things that Alice suggested are policies that are being worked on because of, you know, social determinants and other things: recreation, housing. Those things are happening at both the state and federal level. So they would help loneliness, but I don’t think you’re going to see them branded as a loneliness — national loneliness program. But, you know, the demographics of this country — you know, families are scattered. Zoom is great, you know, but Zoom isn’t real life. And there are more people who are single, there are more people who are widowed, there are more people who never married, there are more people who are divorced, the elderly cohort. Many people live alone, and teens and kids have had a hard time in the last couple years. So I think on one level it’s easy for people to make fun of it because, you know, we’re coming out of this pandemic and the surgeon general’s talking about loneliness. On the other hand, there are millions or tens of millions of people who are lonely. And I think this does sort of help people understand that there are things to be done about it that — I don’t think individual action is always a bad thing. I mean, encouraging people to think about the people in their lives who might be lonely is probably a good thing. It’s social cohesion. I mean, Republicans can make that case, right, that we have to, you know, everybody needs to pick up a telephone or go for a walk and knock on a door.

Rovner: Yeah, they do. I mean, Republicans are big on doing things at the community level. That’s the idea, is let’s have government at the lowest level possible. Well, this will be an interesting issue to watch and see if it catches on more with the public health community. All right. That is this week’s news. Now it is time for our extra credit segment. That’s when we each recommend a story we read this week we think you should read too. As always, don’t worry if you miss it. We will post the links on the podcast page at KFF Health News and in our show notes on your phone or other mobile device. Rachel, why don’t you go first this week?

Cohrs: My story is in ProPublica and the headline is “This Pharmacist Said Prisoners Wouldn’t Feel Pain During Lethal Injection. Then Some Shook and Gasped for Air,” by Lauren Gill and Daniel Moritz-Rabson. And I think it’s just a story about this ongoing issue of expert testimony in criminal justice settings. And obviously these are really important questions about medications that, you know, are used for lethal injections and how they work and just how, you know, people are responding to them in the moment. And I mean, it’s just such an important issue that gets overlooked in the pharmaceutical space sometimes. And yeah, I think it’s just something that is very sobering, and it’s just a really important read.

Rovner: Yeah. I mean, there’s been a lot about doctors and the ethics of participating in these. This is the first time I’ve seen a story about pharmacists. Joanne?

Kenen: Well, I saw this one in The Atlantic. It’s by Yasmin Tayag, and I couldn’t resist the headline: “There Is No Stopping the Allergy Apocalypse.” Basically, because of climate change, allergies are getting worse. If you have allergies, you already know that. If you think you don’t have allergies, you’re probably wrong; you’re probably about to get them. They take a little while to show up. So it’s not in one region; it’s everywhere. So, you know, we’re all going to be wheezing, coughing, sneezing, sniffling a lot more than we’re used to, including if you were not previously a wheezer, cougher, or sniffler.

Rovner: Oh, I can’t wait. Alice.

Ollstein: So I have a piece from The Wall Street Journal called “Patients Lose Access to Free Medicines Amid Spat Between Drugmakers, Health Plans,” by Peter Loftus and Joseph Walker. And it is some really tragic stories about folks who are seeing their monthly costs for medications they depend on to live shoot up. In one instance in the story, what he has to pay per month shot up from 15 to more than 12,000. And so you have the drugmakers, the insurance companies, and the middlemen pointing fingers at each other and saying, you know, “This is your fault, this is your fault, this is your fault.” And meanwhile, patients are suffering. So, really interesting story, hope it leads to some action to help folks.

Rovner: I was going to say, maybe the HELP Committee will get its act together, because it’s trying to work on this.

Ollstein: Yeah.

Rovner: Well, my story is from The Washington Post, and it’s called “Dog-Walking Injuries May Be More Common Than You Think,” by Lindsey Bever. And it’s about a study from Johns Hopkins, including your colleagues, Joanne, that found that nearly half a million people were treated in U.S. emergency rooms for an injury sustained while walking a dog on a leash. Not surprisingly, most were women and older adults, who are most likely to be pulled down by a very strong dog. The three most diagnosed injuries were finger fractures, traumatic brain injuries, and shoulder injuries. As a part-time dog trainer in my other life, here are my two biggest tips, other than training your dog to walk politely on a leash: Don’t use retractable leashes; they can actually cut off a finger if it gets caught in one. And never wrap the leash around your hand or your wrist. So that is my medical advice for this week. And that is our show. As always, if you enjoy the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left us a review; that helps other people find us too. Special thanks, as always, to our ever-patient producer, Francis Ying. Also, as always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org. Or you can tweet me, as long as Twitter’s still there. I’m @jrovner. Joanne?

Kenen: @JoanneKenen.

Rovner: Alice.

Ollstein: @AliceOllstein.

Rovner: Rachel.

Cohrs: @rachelcohrs.

Rovner: We will be back in your feed next week. Until then, be healthy.

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Julie Rovner is chief Washington correspondent and host of KFF Health News’ weekly health policy news podcast, “What the Health?” A noted expert on health policy issues, Julie is the author of the critically praised reference book “Health Care Politics and Policy A to Z,” now in its third edition.

If Congress fails to raise the nation’s debt ceiling in the next few months, the U.S. could default on its debt for the first time in history. Republicans in Congress, however, say they won’t agree to pay the nation’s bills unless Democrats and President Joe Biden agree to deep cuts to health and other programs. Among the proposals in a bill House Republicans passed April 26 is the imposition of new work requirements for adults who receive Medicaid.

Meanwhile, many of the states passing restrictions on abortion are also passing bills to restrict the ability of trans people to get health care. The two movements — both largely aimed at conservative evangelicals, a key GOP constituency — have much in common.

This week’s panelists are Julie Rovner of KFF Health News, Jessie Hellmann of CQ Roll Call, Shefali Luthra of The 19th, and Sarah Karlin-Smith of the Pink Sheet.

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Jessie Hellmann
CQ Roll Call

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Shefali Luthra
The 19th

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Read Shefali's stories

Sarah Karlin-Smith
Pink Sheet

@SarahKarlin

Read Sarah's stories

Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:

• The Republican-controlled House’s proposal to raise the debt ceiling contains enough politically poisonous measures that the plan is a non-starter in the Senate. They include substantial funding cuts to major federal health programs, including the FDA and the National Institutes of Health — cuts that would force the federal government to cut back on grants and other funding.
• The proposal would also impose work requirements on adults enrolled in Medicaid — which covers low-income and disabled Americans, as well as pregnant women — and in the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, which helps needy families buy food. Under the plan, the government would save money by cutting the number of people helped. But most beneficiaries cannot work or already do so. Experience shows the change would mostly affect people who struggle to report their work hours through what can be complicated online portals.
• Multiple congressional committees have released plans to fight high drug costs, promoting efforts to explore how pharmacy benefit managers make decisions about cost and access, as well as to encourage access to cheaper, generic drugs on the market. And during congressional testimony this week, the administrator of the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services, Chiquita Brooks-LaSure, said the agency would no longer issue warnings to hospitals that fail to comply with a law that requires them to post their prices, but instead would move directly to fining the holdouts.
• Also in news about cost-cutting legislation, a plan to address an expensive glitch in Medicare payments to hospital outpatient centers and physician offices is gaining steam on Capitol Hill. Hospital consolidation has helped increase costs in the health care system, and lawmakers are eager to keep health spending under control. But the hospital industry is ramping up advertising to make sure lawmakers think twice before legislating.
• In abortion news, it will likely be at least a year before the Supreme Court rules on whether the abortion pill mifepristone should remain accessible. Some justices suggested in last summer’s Dobbs decision, which overturned abortion rights, that they would leave further abortion questions to the states, yet the nation is finding that overturning a half-century of legal precedent is messy, to say the least. Meanwhile, reporting and polling are revealing just how difficult it is for doctors in states with abortion bans to determine what constitutes a “medical emergency” worthy of intervention, with a grim consensus emerging that apparently means “when a woman is near death.”

Also this week, Rovner interviews Renuka Rayasam, who wrote the latest KFF Health News-NPR “Bill of the Month” feature, about a pregnant woman experiencing a dangerous complication who was asked to pay $15,000 upfront to see one of the few specialists who could help her. If you have an outrageous or exorbitant medical bill you want to share with us, you can do that here.

Plus, for “extra credit,” the panelists suggest health policy stories they read this week that they think you should read, too:

Julie Rovner: The Nation’s “The Poison Pill in the Mifepristone Lawsuit That Could Trigger a National Abortion Ban,” by Amy Littlefield.

Shefali Luthra: The Washington Post’s “The Conservative Campaign to Rewrite Child Labor Laws,” by Jacob Bogage and María Luisa Paúl.

Jessie Hellmann: Politico’s “Gun Violence Is Actually Worse in Red States. It’s Not Even Close,” by Colin Woodard.

Sarah Karlin-Smith: The Wall Street Journal’s “Weight-Loss Drugmakers Lobby for Medicare Coverage,” by Liz Essley Whyte.

Also mentioned in this week’s episode:

• In Oklahoma, a Woman Was Told to Wait Until She’s ‘Crashing’ for Abortion Care,” by Selena Simmons-Duffin.
• Anti-Trans Bills Have Doubled Since 2022. Our Map Shows Where States Stand,” by Annys Shin, N. Kirkpatrick, and Anne Branigin.

click to open the transcript

Transcript: Dancing Under the Debt Ceiling

KFF Health News’ ‘What the Health?’

Episode Title: Dancing Under the Debt Ceiling

Episode Number: 295

Published: April 27, 2023

[Editor’s note: This transcript, generated using transcription software, has been edited for style and clarity.]

Julie Rovner: Hello and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Julie Rovner, chief Washington correspondent at KFF Health News. And I’m joined by some of the best and smartest health reporters in Washington. We’re taping this week on Thursday, April 27, at 10 a.m. As always, news happens fast — really fast this week — and things might have changed by the time you hear this. So here we go. We are joined today via video conference by Jessie Hellmann of CQ Roll Call.

Jessie Hellmann: Good morning.

Rovner: Sarah Karlin-Smith, the Pink Sheet.

Sarah Karlin-Smith: Hi, everybody.

Rovner: And Shefali Luthra of The 19th.

Shefali Luthra: Hello.

Rovner: Later in this episode, we’ll have our KFF Health News-NPR “Bill of the Month” interview with Renuka Rayasam. This month’s patient had a happy ending medically, but a not-so-happy ending financially. But first, the news. We’re going to start this week with the budget and, to be specific, the nation’s debt ceiling, which will put the U.S. in default if it’s not raised sometime in the next several weeks, not to panic anyone. House Republicans, who have maintained all along that they won’t allow the debt ceiling to be raised unless they get spending cuts in return, managed to pass — barely — a bill that would raise the debt ceiling enough to get to roughly the middle of next year. It has no chance in the Senate, but it’s now the Republicans’ official negotiating position, so we should talk about what’s in it. It starts with a giant cut to discretionary spending programs. In health care that includes things like the National Institutes of Health, most public health programs, and the parts of the FDA that aren’t funded by user fees. I mean, these are big cuts, yes?

Hellmann: Yeah, it’s about a 14% cut to some of these programs. It’s kind of hard to know exactly what that would mean. But yeah, it’s a big cut and there would have to be, like, a lot of changes made, especially to a lot of health care programs, because that’s where a lot of spending happens.

Rovner: Yeah, I mean, sometimes they’ll agree on cuts and it’ll be like a 1% across the board, which itself can be a lot of money. But I mean, these are, these are sort of really deep cuts that would seriously hinder the ability of these programs to function, right?

Karlin-Smith: NIH for a number of years was operating on only getting budget increases that were not keeping up kind of with inflation and so forth. And they just finally, over the last few years, got back on track. Even though their budget seemed like it was going up, really, if you adjusted for inflation, it had been going down. And then when you have an agency like FDA, which, the line is always that they do an incredible amount of work on really a shoestring budget for the amount they regulate, so they never get — NIH sometimes gets, you know, that bipartisan popularity and does get those bigger increases back, and they never really get those big increases, so I think it would be harder for them also to get that back later on if they did get such big cuts.

Hellmann: There are like also a lot of health programs that just operate on flat funding from year to year, like Title X.

Rovner: Yeah, the family planning program.

Hellmann: And so obviously, like HHS said last year, We are only able to fund a certain number of providers, like, less than previously, because of inflation, and stuff like that. So obviously if you take a 14% cut to that, it would make it even harder.

Rovner: All right. Another major proposal in the package would institute or expand work requirements for people on food stamps and on Medicaid. Now, we’ve had work rules for people on welfare since the 1990s, but most people on Medicaid and food stamps, for that matter, either already work or can’t work for some reason. Why are the Republicans so excited about expanding or instituting work requirements?

Hellmann: I think there are a few reasons. No. 1, it’s a big money saver. The CBO [Congressional Budget Office] came out with their analysis this week showing that it would save the federal government about $109 billion. A lot of that would be shifted to the states because the way the bill is written, states would still be allowed to cover these individuals if they can’t prove that they’re working. But they’d have to pick up the costs themselves, which, I’ve seen experts questioning if that would really happen, even in states like, you know, New York and California, who probably wouldn’t want these people to lose coverage. But I think an argument that you hear a lot too, especially during the Trump administration when they were really pushing these, is they say that work is what provides fulfillment and dignity to people. Former CMS [Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services] administrator Seema Verma talked about this a lot. The argument I heard a lot on the Hill this week is that Medicaid and other — SNAP [Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program], TANF [Temporary Assistance for Needy Families], programs like that — trap people in poverty and that work requirements will kind of give them an incentive to get jobs. But as you said, like, it wouldn’t apply to most — you know, most people are already working. And most people who lost coverage under some of the previous iterations of this just didn’t know about it or they were unable to complete the reporting requirements.

Rovner: And to be clear, the CBO estimate is not so much because people would work and they wouldn’t need it anymore. It’s because people are likely to lose their coverage because they can’t meet the bureaucratic requirements to prove that they’re working. Shefali, you’re nodding. We’ve seen this before, right?

Luthra: I was just thinking, I mean, the savings, yes, they come from people losing their health insurance. That’s very obvious. Of course, you save money when you pay for fewer people’s coverage. And you’re absolutely right: “This will motivate people to work” argument has always been a little bit — complicated is a generous word. I think you could even say it’s a bit thin just because people do already work.

Rovner: And they — many of them work, they don’t earn enough money, really, to bring them out of poverty. And they don’t have jobs that offer health insurance. That’s the only way they’re going to get health insurance. All right. Well, where do we go from here with the debt ceiling? So now we’ve got this Republican plan that says work — everybody has to work and prove that they work and we’re going to cut all these programs — and the Democrats saying this is not a discussion for the debt ceiling, this is a separate discussion that should happen down the road on the budget. Is there any sign that either side is going to give here?

Hellmann: It doesn’t seem like it. Democrats have been saying, like, this is a non-starter. The president has been saying, like, we’re not going to negotiate on this; we want a clean increase in the debt ceiling, and we can talk about some of these other proposals that you want to pursue later. But right now, it seems like both sides are kind of at a standstill. And I think Republicans see, like, passing this bill yesterday as a way to kind of strengthen their hand and show that they can get all on the same page. But I just do not see the Senate entertaining a 14% cut or, like, Medicaid work requirements or any of this stuff that is just kind of extremely toxic, even to some, like, moderate Democrats over there.

Rovner: Yeah, I think this is going to go on for a while. Well, so at this high level, we’ve got this huge partisan fight going on. But interestingly, this week elsewhere on Capitol Hill things seem surprisingly almost bipartisan, dare I say. Starting in the Senate, the chairman and the ranking member of the Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee, Democrat Bernie Sanders and Republican Bill Cassidy, announced that they’ve reached agreement on a series of bills aimed at reining in prescription drug costs for consumers, including one to more closely regulate pharmacy benefit managers and others to further promote the availability of generic drugs. Sarah, we’ve talked about the target on the backs of PBMs this year. What would this bill do and what are the chances of it becoming law?

Karlin-Smith: So this bill does three things: One is transparency. They want to pull back the cover and get more data and information from PBMs so that they can better understand how they’re working. So I think the idea would then be to take future policy action, because one of the criticisms of this industry is it’s so opaque it’s hard to know if they’re really doing the right thing in terms of serving their customers and trying to save money and drug prices as they say they are. The other thing is it would basically require a lot of the fees and rebates PBMs get on drug prices to be given back directly to the health plan, which is sort of interesting because the drug industry has argued that money should be given more directly to patients who are paying for those drugs. And when that has scored by the CBO, that often costs money because that leads to PBMs using less money to lower people’s premiums, and premiums are subsidized from the government. So I’m curious if the reason why they designed the bill this way is to sort of get around that, although then I’m not sure exactly if you get the same individual … [unintelligible] … level benefit from it. And then the third thing they do is they want to eliminate spread pricing, which is where — this is really a pharmacy issue — where PBMs basically reimburse pharmacies less than they’re charging the health plans and, you know, their customers for the drug and kind of pocketing the difference. So I think, from what I’m seeing on the Hill, there’s a ton of momentum to tackle PBMs. And like you said, it’s bipartisan. Whether it’s this bill or which particular bills it’s hard to know, because Senate Finance Committee is sort of working on their own plan. A number of committees in the House are looking at it, other parts of the Senate. So to me, it seems like there’s reasonable odds that something gets done maybe this spring or summer on PBMs. But it’s hard to know, like, the exact shape of the final legislation. It’s pretty early at this point to figure out exactly how it all, you know, teases out.

Rovner: We have seen in the past things that are very bipartisan get stuck nonetheless. Well, across the Capitol, meanwhile, the House Energy and Commerce Committee is also looking at bipartisan issues in health care, including — as they are in the Senate — how to increase price transparency and competition, which also, I hasten to add, includes regulating PBMs. But, Jessie, there was some actual news out of the hearing at Energy and Commerce from Chiquita Brooks-LaSure, who runs the federal Medicare and Medicaid programs. What did she say?

Hellmann: So they’ve instituted two fines against hospitals that haven’t been complying with the price transparency requirements. So I think that brings the number of hospitals that they’ve fined to, like, less than five. Please fact-check that, but I’m pretty sure that I can count it on one hand.

Rovner: One hand. They have, they have actually fined a small number of hospitals under the requirement. Yeah. I mean, we’ve known — we’ve talked about this for a while, that these rules have been in effect since the beginning of 2022, right? And a lot of hospitals have just been not doing it or they’re supposed to be showing their prices in a consumer-understandable way. And a lot of them just haven’t been. And I assume CMS is not happy with this.

Hellmann: Yeah, so Brooks-LaSure said yesterday that CMS is no longer going to issue warnings for hospitals that aren’t making a good-faith effort to comply with these rules. Instead, they’ll move straight to what’s called the corrective action phase, where basically hospitals are supposed to, like, say what they’re going to do to comply with these. And after that, they could get penalized. So we’ll see if that actually encourages hospitals to comply. One of the fines that they issued is like $100,000. And so I think some hospitals are viewing this, you know, as a cost of doing business because they think it would cost them more to comply with the price transparency rules than it would to not comply with them.

Rovner: So transparency here is still a work in progress. There’s also a fight in the House over the very wonky-sounding site-neutral payment policy in Medicare, which, like the surprise bill legislation from a few years back, is not so much a partisan disagreement as a fight between various sectors in the health care system. Can you explain what this is and what the fight’s about?

Hellmann: So basically hospital outpatient departments or, like, physician offices owned by hospitals get paid more than, like, independent physician’s offices for providing things like X-rays or drug administration and stuff like that. And so this is —

Rovner: But the same care. I mean, if you get it in a hospital outpatient or a doctor’s office, the hospital outpatient clinic gets paid more.

Hellmann: Yeah. And there’s not much evidence that shows that the care is any different or the quality is better in a hospital. And so this has kind of been something that’s been getting a lot of attention this year as people are looking for ways to reduce Medicare spending. It would save billions of dollars over 10 years, I think one think tank estimated about 150 billion over 10 years. It’s getting a lot of bipartisan interest, especially as we talk more about consolidation in hospitals, you know, buying up these physician practices, kind of rebranding them and saying, OK, this is outpatient department now, we get paid more for this. There are fewer independent physician’s offices than there used to be, and members have taken a really big interest in how consolidation increases health care prices, especially from hospitals. So it does seem like something that could pass. I will say that there is a lot of heat coming from the hospital industry. They released an ad on Friday last week warning about Medicare cuts, so, they usually do whenever anyone talks about anything that could hurt their bottom lines. Very generalist ad and kind of those “Mediscare” ads that we’ve been talking about. So it’ll be interesting to see if members can withstand the heat from such a powerful lobbying force.

Rovner: As we like to say, there’s a hospital in every single district, and most of them give money to members of Congress, so anything that has the objection of the hospital industry has an uphill battle. So we’ll see how this one plays out. Let us turn to abortion. The fate of the abortion pill mifepristone is still unclear, although the Supreme Court did prevent even a temporary suspension of its approval, as a lower court would have done. Now the case is back at the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals, which has swiftly scheduled a hearing for May 17. But it still could be months or even years before we know how this is going to come out, right, Shefali?

Luthra: It absolutely could be. So the fastest that we could expect to see this case before the Supreme Court again, just — what from folks I’ve talked to is, I mean, we have this hearing May 17, depending on how quickly the 5th Circuit rules, depending on how they rule, there is a chance that we could see if we get, for instance, an unfriendly ruling toward mifepristone, the federal government could appeal to the Supreme Court this summer. We could see if the Supreme Court is willing to take the case. The earliest that means that they would hear it would be this fall, with a decision in the spring a year from now, but that would be quite fast. I think what’s striking about it is that we may all recall last year, when the Supreme Court issued its decision in the Dobbs case, they said this will put the issue of abortion back in the hands of the states, out of the judiciary, we will no longer be involved. And anyone at the time could have told you there’s no way that this would happen because it is too complicated of an issue, when you undo 50 years of precedent, to assume there will be no more legal questions. And here we are. Those critics have been proven right, because who could have seen that, once again, we’d have the courts being asked to step in and answer more questions about what it means when a 50-year right is suddenly gone?

Rovner: Indeed. And of course, we have the … [unintelligible] … This is going to be my next question, about whether this really is all going to be at the state level or it’s going to be at the state and the federal level. So as red states are rushing to pass as many restrictions as they can, some Republicans seem to be recognizing that their party is veering into dangerously unpopular territory, as others insist on pressing on. We saw a great example of this over the weekend. Former vice president and longtime anti-abortion activist Mike Pence formally split on the issue with former President Trump, with Pence calling for a federal ban and not just leaving the issue to the states. Nikki Haley, the former governor of South Carolina and the lone woman in the Republican field so far, managed to anger both sides with the speech she made at the headquarters of the hard-line anti-abortion group the Susan B. Anthony List. Haley’s staff had suggested ahead of time that she would try to lay out a middle ground, but she said almost nothing specific, which managed to irritate both full abortion abolitionists and those who support more restrained action. Is this going to be a full-fledged war in the Republican Party?

Luthra: I think it has to be. I mean, the anti-abortion group is still very powerful in the Republican Party. If you would like to win the nomination, you would like their support. That is why we know that Ron DeSantis pursued a six-week ban in Florida despite it being incredibly unpopular, despite it now alienating many people who would be his donors. This is just too important of a constituency to annoy. But unfortunately, you can’t really compromise on national abortion policy if you’re running for president. A national ban, no matter what week you pick, it’s not a good sound bite. We saw what happened last year when Sen. Lindsey Graham put forth his national 15-week ban: Virtually no other even Republicans wanted to endorse that, because it’s a toxic word to say, especially in this post-Dobbs environment, especially now that we have all of this polling, including NPR polling from yesterday, that showed us that abortion bans remain quite unpopular and that people don’t trust Republicans largely on this issue. I think this is going to be incredibly interesting because we are going to eventually have to see Nikki Haley take a stance. We will have to see Donald Trump, I think, frankly, be a bit more committal than he has been, because meanwhile, he has lately told people publicly that he would not issue any federal policy, would leave this up to the states, we also know that he has said different things in other conversations. And at some point those conflicts are going to come to a head. And what Republicans realize is that their party’s stance and the stance they need to take to maintain favor with this important group is just not a winning issue for most voters. People don’t want abortion banned.

Rovner: Yeah, it’s a real problem. And Republicans are seeing they have no idea how to sort of get out of this box canyon, if you will. Well, back in the states, things seem to be getting even more restrictive. In Oklahoma this week NPR has another of those wrenching stories about pregnant women unable to get emergency health care. This time, a woman, a mom of three kids already with a nonviable and cancerous pregnancy who was told literally to wait in the hospital parking lot until she was close enough to death to obtain needed care. And that case turned out not to be an outlier. A quote-unquote “secret shopper” survey of hospitals in Oklahoma found that a majority of the 34 hospitals contacted could not articulate what their policy was in case of pregnancy complications or how they would determine if the pregnant person’s life was actually in danger. I can’t imagine Oklahoma is the only state where this is the case. We have a lot of these bans and no idea where sort of the lines are, even if they have exceptions.

Luthra: We know that this is not isolated to Oklahoma. There is a lawsuit in Texas right now with a group of women suing the state because they could not access care that would save their lives. One of those plaintiffs testified in Congress about this yesterday. Doctors in virtually every state with an abortion ban have said that they do not know what the medical exceptions really are in practice other than that they have to wait until people are on death’s door because there isn’t — medical emergency isn’t really a technical term. These bills, now laws, were written without the expertise of actual physicians or clinicians because they were never really supposed to take effect. This really has been just another example of a way that the dog chased the car and now the dog has the car.

Rovner: And the dog has no idea what to do with the car. Well, meanwhile, in Iowa, the attorney general has paused the state’s policy of paying for abortions as well as emergency contraception for rape victims. This is where I get to rant briefly that emergency contraception and the abortion pill are totally different, that emergency contraception does not cause abortion — it only delays ovulation after unprotected sex and thus is endorsed for rape victims in Catholic health facilities across Europe. OK, end of rant. I expect we’re going to see more of this from officials in red states, though, right, with going — not just going after abortions, but going after things that are not abortion, like emergency contraception.

Luthra: And I mean, if we look at what many of the hard-line anti-abortion groups advocate, they don’t just want to get rid of abortion. They specifically name many forms of hormonal contraception, but specifically the emergency contraception Plan B, and they oppose IUDs [intrauterine devices]. It would just be so, so surprising if those were not next targets for Republican states.

Rovner: So abortion isn’t the only culture war issue being fought out in state legislatures. There’s also a parallel effort in lots of red states to curtail the ability of trans people, mostly but not solely teenagers, to get treatment or, in some cases, to merely live their lives. According to The Washington Post, as of the middle of this month, state legislators have introduced more than 400 anti-trans bills just since January. That’s more than the previous four years combined. Nearly 30 of them have become law. Now, I remember in the early aughts when anti-gay and particularly anti-gay marriage bills were the hot items in red states. Today, with some notable exceptions, gay marriage is as routine as any other marriage. Is it possible that all these attacks on trans people, by making them more visible, could have the same effect? In other words, could this have the opposite effect as the people who are pushing it intended? Or am I just looking for a silver lining here?

Luthra: I think it’s too soon to say. There isn’t incredible polling on this issue, but we do know that in general, like, this is not an issue that even Republicans pick their candidates for. It’s not like they are driven to the ballot box because they hate trans people this much. I wouldn’t at all be surprised if there is a backlash, just because what we are hearing is so, frankly, horrific. What I have been really struck by, in addition to the parallels to anti-gay marriage, have been the ways in which restrictions on access to health care for trans people really do parallel attacks to abortion in particular, thinking about, for instance, passing laws that restrict access to care for minors, passing laws that restrict Medicaid from paying for care, that restrict how insurance covers for care. It’s almost spooky how similar these are, because people often think minors are easier to access first. People often think health insurance is an easier, sort of almost niche issue to go for first. And what we don’t often see until afterward is that these state-by-state laws have made care largely inaccessible. The other thing that I think about all the time is that these are obviously, in both cases, forms of health care restriction that are largely opposed by the medical community, that are often crafted without the input of actual medical expertise, and that target health care that does feel incredibly difficult to extricate from the patient’s gender.

Rovner: Yeah. The other thing is that people are going from state to state, just like with abortion. In order to get health care, they’re having to cross state lines and in some cases move. I mean, we’re starting to see this.

Luthra: The high-profile example being Dwyane Wade, formerly of the Miami Heat, moving away from Florida because of his child.

Karlin-Smith: The other thing, Julie, you were saying in terms of how optimistic to be, in terms of maybe the other side of this issue sort of pushing back and overcoming it, is that Politico had this good story this week about doctors in states where this care is perfectly legal and permissible but they’re getting so many threats and essentially their health care facilities feel that they’re so much in danger that they are concerned about how to safely provide and help these people that they do want to help and give care, while also not putting their families and so forth in danger, which perhaps also has a parallel to some of how there’s tons of, like, constant protests outside abortion clinics. And people have volunteered for years just to kind of escort people so they can safely feel comfortable getting there, which of course is, you know, can be very traumatic to patients trying to get care.

Rovner: Yeah, the parallels are really striking. So we will watch that space too. All right. That is the news for this week. Now, we will play my “Bill of the Month” interview with Renuka Rayasam. Then we will come back and share our extra credit. We are pleased to welcome to the podcast Renuka Rayasam, who reported and wrote the latest KFF Health News-NPR “Bill of the Month” story. Renu, welcome to “What the Health?”

Renuka Rayasam: Thanks, Julie. Thanks for having me.

Rovner: So this month’s patient was pregnant with twins when she experienced a complication. Tell us who she is, where she’s from, and what happened.

Rayasam: Sure. Sara Walsh was 24 weeks pregnant with twins — it was Labor Day weekend in 2021 — and she started to feel something was off. She had spent a long time waiting to have a pregnancy that made it this far — eight years, she told me. But instead of feeling excited, she started to feel really nervous and she knew something was off. And so on Tuesday, she went to her regular doctor. And then on Wednesday, after that Labor Day, she went to her maternal fetal specialist, who diagnosed her with a pretty rare pregnancy complication that can occur when you have twins, when you have multiple fetuses that share blood unevenly through the same placenta. And it’s called twin-to-twin transfusion syndrome. And, you know — and this was Wednesday — she went into the office in the morning and she waited a long time for the doctor to kind of come back with the results, she and her husband, and just kind of spent the morning sort of back-and-forth between her maternal fetal specialist and her OB-GYN. And they told her she needed to get treatment immediately, that if she didn’t have treatment that she could lose one or both twins, she herself could even die. She needed to keep her fluid intake low. So they referred her to a specialist about four hours away from where she was. She was in Winter Haven, Florida, and they referred her to a specialist near Miami. And the specialist there apparently does not contract with any private insurance. And so that afternoon, hours after her diagnosis, she was packing her bags; she was getting ready to go, figuring out a place to stay, a hotel room and all that. And she gets a call from the billing office of this specialist in Coral Gables, Florida, near Miami. And they said, “Listen, we don’t contract with private insurance. You have to pay upfront for the pre surgical consultation for the surgery and then the post-surgical consult. And you need to have that money before you show up tomorrow in our office at 8 a.m.”

Rovner: And how much money was it?

Rayasam: About $15,000 in total for the consultations and the surgery itself. She told me she burst into tears. She didn’t want to lose these twins. She wasn’t given any option of shopping around for another provider. And she spent some time trying to figure out what to do. She couldn’t get a medical credit card because I guess there’s a 24-hour waiting period and she didn’t have that long. And so finally, her mother let her borrow her credit card. She checked into a hotel at midnight and at 8 a.m. the next morning she handed over her credit card and her mother’s credit card before she could have the procedure — before she could even see the doctor, I should say.

Rovner: And the outcome was medically good, right?

Rayasam: Yeah. The provider who did her surgery is a pioneer in this field. And that was why those doctors sent Sara to this provider, Dr. Ruben Quintero. He came up with this staging system that helps assess the symptom’s severity and even pioneered the treatment for it. But he sort of used all that to kind of say, OK, you have to pay me; I’m not even going to deal with insurance in this case. And so that afternoon, it was that Thursday, the day after she was diagnosed, she had a procedure, it went well, she had a couple of follow-ups in the following weeks. And then five weeks later, she delivered premature but otherwise healthy twin girls.

Rovner: So is that even legal for a doctor to say, “I’m not even going to look at you unless you pay me some five-figure amount”?

Rayasam: Generally, no. We have the federal No Surprises Act, as you know, and that’s meant to do away with surprise billing. But that was really designed for kind of inadvertent medical bills or surprises. Things get really complicated when there’s this appearance of choice where, you know, she had time to call the insurer, she had time to call the provider. It wasn’t as if she was unconscious and sort of rushed to the nearest doctor. Technically, she had a choice here. She could have chosen not to get the procedure. She could have gone to a different state. But obviously, those are not real choices in her situation when she needed the procedure so urgently. And so in those cases, you know, the billing experts I spoke with said this is a real loophole in federal billing legislation and state surprise billing legislation because the bill wasn’t a surprise. She knew how much to expect upfront. And that’s what makes this situation tricky.

Rovner: And she knew that the doctor wasn’t in network.

Rayasam: Absolutely. She knew the doctor wasn’t in network, and she knew how much she had to pay, and she willingly forked over the money, of course, as anyone would have in that situation or tried to in that situation.

Rovner: So after the fact, she went back to her insurance company to see if they could work something out, since it was pretty much the only place she could have gone at that point to get the treatment. But that didn’t go so well.

Rayasam: That didn’t go so well, and it’s one complication in this story that I myself don’t know what to make of, but the provider does not contract with any insurer, I should say. But he did take her insurance card and — or, the billing person did — and they say that they bill as a courtesy to the patient. So they file the paperwork for the patient. They say, “OK, your insurer will reimburse you. We’re going to provide all the paperwork.” In Sara’s case, it took a long time for this doctor and his practice to get Blue Cross Blue Shield the paperwork they needed to kind of pay for her claim. And in addition to that, they didn’t really send over the right paperwork right away. So it took a long time. And eventually she got only $1,200 back and she ended up paying far more than that out-of-pocket.

Rovner: And of course, the next obvious question is, doesn’t her insurance have an out-of-pocket maximum? How did she ever end up spending this much?

Rayasam: That’s a great question. We reached out to her insurer, and they didn’t really give us much of an explanation, but they, you know, on their billing statements and what they said to her was, “Hey, you went willingly out of network; this doesn’t qualify you for those out-of-pocket maximums.” They didn’t give us an explanation as to why. This seems to be a classic case of where those maximums should apply. But like I said, I think, you know, she had very little recourse. She tried to appeal the bills. She’s, you know, been on the phone with her insurer multiple times. The thing that makes this story more complicated is that it’s such a rare procedure and there aren’t that many providers in the country that even perform this procedure. So at first she was having to struggle with billing codes and all that with her insurance, so a lot of the people she was dealing with on the insurance side were really confused. It wasn’t something that they had a playbook for, knew what to do with, and that’s what made this a little bit more complicated.

Rovner: So what’s the takeaway here? I mean, obviously this was a rare complication, but if you multiply the number of rare complications of different things, you’re talking about a lot of people. Is there any way to get around this? I mean, it sounds like she did everything she could have in this case.

Rayasam: She did. In this case, it turns out there was another provider in Florida. There was no way for her to know that. Neither her OB-GYN nor the maternal fetal specialist told her about this other provider. I found out about it. I called around and did the reporter thing. And there are now four providers in Florida that will treat this. But of course, you know, if I was a patient, I wouldn’t shop around and risk my pregnancy either. So it’s unfortunate, in this case, there’s not much a person can do other than make sure that they’re keeping all the paperwork. And, you know, one thing that one of the billing experts I spoke with told me is that when you pay upfront, it makes things a lot harder. And in this case, like I said, she didn’t have a choice. But if there’s ever a way to get the bill on the back end, then there’s more of an incentive for the provider and the insurer to work together to get paid. But once the provider was paid, the insurer is not going to rush to reimburse the patient.

Rovner: And the provider is not going to rush to help the insurer figure out what to do. Ah well, another cautionary tale. Renu Rayasam, thank you so much.

Rayasam: Thank you.

Rovner: OK, we’re back and it’s time for our extra credit segment. That’s when we each recommend a story we read this week we think you should read too. As always, don’t worry if you miss it. We will post the links on the podcast page at kffhealthnews.org and in our show notes on your phone or other mobile device. Sarah, why don’t you go first this week?

Karlin-Smith: Sure. I took a look at a story in The Wall Street Journal, “Weight-Loss Drugmakers Lobby for Medicare Coverage. Adding Ozempic, Mounjaro to federal plans could stoke sales.” It really documents well sort of the range of lobbying organizations and groups and where they’re sort of putting money to try and get Medicare to shift its policies and cover treatments for obesity, which was something that in the early creations of Part D was banned. And I think largely at that time it was because weight loss was seen as more of a cosmetic treatment than something that impacted health in the same way we appreciate now.

Rovner: And also, there wasn’t anything that worked.

Karlin-Smith: Right. The things that prior to this, the things that were available at different times were not very effective and in some cases turned out to be fairly unsafe. And of course, now we have treatments that seem to work very well for a number of people, but there’s a fear of just how much money it would cost Medicare. So the other interesting thing in this story is they talk about some lawmakers in Congress thinking about ways to maybe narrowly start opening the floodgates to access by potentially maybe limiting it to people with certain BMIs [body mass indexes] or things like that to maybe not have the initial cost hit they might be concerned about with it.

Rovner: And of course, whether Medicare covers something is going to be a big factor in whether private insurance covers something. So it’s not just the Medicare population I think we’re talking about here.

Karlin-Smith: Right. There’s already I know lobbying going on around that. My colleague wrote a story a few weeks ago about Cigna sort of pushing back about having those drugs be included potentially in, like, the essential health benefits of the ACA [Affordable Care Act]. So it’s going to be, yeah, a broader issue than just Medicare.

Rovner: Yeah, it’s a lot. I mean, I remember when the hepatitis C drugs came out and we were all so, you know, “Oh my God, how much this is going to cost, but it cures hepatitis C.” But I mean, that’s not nearly as many people as we’re talking about here. Jessie, why don’t you go next?

Hellmann: My stories from Politico. It’s called “Gun Violence Is Actually Worse in Red States. It’s Not Even Close.” It takes a weird twist that I was not expecting. Basically, the premise is about how gun deaths are actually higher in areas like Texas and Florida. They have higher per capita firearm deaths, despite messaging from some Republican governors that it’s actually, like, you know, cities like Chicago and New York that are like war zones, I think it’s the former president said. The author kind of makes an interesting argument I didn’t see coming about how he thinks who colonized these areas plays into kind of like the culture. And he argues that Puritans like had more self-restraint for the common good. And so areas like that have less firearm deaths where, you know, the Deep South people were — had like a belief in defending their honor, the honor of their families. So they were kind of more likely to take up arms. Not sure how I feel about this argument, but I thought it was an interesting story and an interesting argument, so —

Rovner: It is. It’s a really good story. Shefali.

Luthra: My story is from The Washington Post. It is called “The Conservative Campaign to Rewrite Child Labor Laws.” It’s a really great look at this Florida-based group called the Foundation for Government Accountability, which, despite its innocuous-sounding name, is trying to help states make it easier to employ children. This is really striking because we have seen, in states like Arkansas, efforts to make it easier to employ people younger than 16 in some cases, which is just really interesting to watch in these states that talk about protecting children and protecting life to, to then make it easier to, to employ kids.

Rovner: And in dangerous profess — in dangerous jobs sometimes. I mean, we’re not talking about flipping burgers.

Luthra: No, no. We’re talking about working in, like, in meat plants, for instance. But I think what’s also interesting is that this same organization that has made it easier to employ children has also tried to fight things like anti-poverty and try to fight things like Medicaid expansion, which is just sort of, if you’re thinking about it from an access-to-health standpoint, like, anti-poverty programs and Medicaid are shown to make people healthier. It’s sort of a really interesting look into a worldview that in many ways uses one kind of language but then advance the policy agenda that takes us in a different direction.

Rovner: Maybe we should go back to to Jessie’s story and depend on who settled that part of the country. We shall see. Speaking of history, my story’s from The Nation, and it’s called “The Poison Pill in the Mifepristone Lawsuit That Could Trigger a National Abortion Ban,” by Amy Littlefield. And it’s about the Comstock Act, which is a law from the Victorian era — it was passed in 1873 — that banned the mailing of, quote, “lewd materials,” including articles about abortion or contraception. A lot has been written about the Comstock Act of late because it was used to justify part of the opinion in the original mifepristone case out of Amarillo. But what this article makes clear is that reviving the law is actually a carefully calculated strategy to make abortion illegal everywhere. So this is not something that just popped up in this case. It’s a really interesting read. OK, that is our show. As always. if you enjoyed the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left us a review; that helps other people find us too. Special thanks, as always, to our ever-patient producer, Francis Ying. As always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org. Or you can tweet me, at least for now. I’m @jrovner. Sarah?

Karlin-Smith: I’m @SarahKarlin.

Rovner: Jessie.

Hellmann: @jessiehellmann.

Rovner: Shefali.

Luthra: @Shefalil.

Rovner: We’ll be back in your feed next week. Until then, be healthy.

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