The Host

Emmarie Huetteman
KFF Health News

Emmarie Huetteman, associate Washington editor, previously spent more than a decade reporting on the federal government, most recently covering surprise medical bills, drug pricing reform, and other health policy debates in Washington and on the campaign trail.

The annual U.S. Census Bureau report this week revealed a drop in the uninsured rate last year as more working-age people obtained employer coverage. However, this year’s end of pandemic-era protections — which allowed many people to stay on Medicaid — is likely to have changed that picture quite a bit since. Meanwhile, reports show even many of those with insurance continue to struggle to afford their health care costs, and some providers are encouraging patients to take out loans that tack interest onto their medical debt.

Also, a mystery is unfolding in the federal budget: Why has recent Medicare spending per beneficiary leveled off? And the CDC recommends anyone who isat least 6 months old get the new covid booster.

This week’s panelists are Emmarie Huetteman of KFF Health News, Margot Sanger-Katz of The New York Times, Sarah Karlin-Smith of the Pink Sheet, and Joanne Kenen of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico.

Panelists

Sarah Karlin-Smith
Pink Sheet

@SarahKarlin

Read Sarah's stories

Joanne Kenen
Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico

@JoanneKenen

Read Joanne's stories

Margot Sanger-Katz
The New York Times

@sangerkatz

Read Margot's stories

Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:

• The Census Bureau reported this week that the uninsured rate dropped to 10.8% in 2022, down from 11.6% in 2021, driven largely by a rise in employer-sponsored coverage. Since then, pandemic-era coverage protections have lapsed, though it remains to be seen exactly how many people could lose Medicaid coverage and stay uninsured.
• A concerning number of people who have insurance nonetheless struggle to afford their out-of-pocket costs. Medical debt is a common, escalating problem, exacerbated now as hospitals and other providers direct patients toward bank loans, credit cards, and other options that also saddle them with interest.
• Some state officials are worried that people who lose their Medicaid coverage could choose short-term health insurance plans with limited benefits — so-called junk plans — and find themselves owing more than they’d expect for future care.
• Meanwhile, a mystery is unfolding in the federal budget: After decades of warnings about runaway government spending, why has spending per Medicare beneficiary defied predictions and leveled off? At the same time, private insurance costs are increasing, with employer-sponsored plans expecting their largest increase in more than a decade.
• And the push for people to get the new covid booster is seeking to enshrine it in Americans’ annual preventive care regimen.

Plus, for “extra credit,” the panelists suggest health policy stories they read this week that they think you should read, too:

Emmarie Huetteman: KFF Health News’ “The Shrinking Number of Primary Care Physicians Is Reaching a Tipping Point,” by Elisabeth Rosenthal.

Sarah Karlin-Smith: MedPage Today’s “Rural Hospital Turns to GoFundMe to Stay Afloat,” by Kristina Fiore.

Joanne Kenen: ProPublica’s “How Columbia Ignored Women, Undermined Prosecutors and Protected a Predator for More Than 20 Years,” by Bianca Fortis and Laura Beil.

Margot Sanger-Katz: Congressional Budget Office’s “Raising the Excise Tax on Cigarettes: Effects on Health and the Federal Budget.”

Also mentioned in this week’s episode:

• U.S. Census Bureau’s “Health Insurance Coverage of U.S. Workers Increased in 2022,” by Rachel Lindstrom, Katherine Keisler-Starkey, and Lisa Bunch.
• The Commonwealth Fund’s “Can Older Adults with Employer Coverage Afford Their Health Care?” by Lauren A. Haynes and Sara R. Collins.
• KFF Health News’ “What One Lending Company’s Hospital Contracts Reveal About Financing Patient Debt,” by Noam N. Levey.
• The New York Times’ “A Huge Threat to the U.S. Budget Has Receded. And No One Is Sure Why,” by Margot Sanger-Katz, Alicia Parlapiano, and Josh Katz.
• The Wall Street Journal’s “Health-Insurance Costs Are Taking Biggest Jumps in Years,” by Anna Wilde Mathews.
• The New York Times’ “The N.Y.C. Neighborhood That’s Getting Even Thinner on Ozempic,” by Joseph Goldstein.

click to open the transcript

Transcript: Underinsured Is the New Uninsured

KFF Health News’ ‘What the Health?’

Episode Title: Underinsured Is the New Uninsured

Episode Number: 314

Published: Sept. 14, 2023

[Editor’s note: This transcript, generated using transcription software, has been edited for style and clarity.]

Emmarie Huetteman: Hello and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Emmarie Huetteman, a Washington editor for KFF Health News. I’m filling in for Julie [Rovner] this week, who’s on vacation. And I’m joined by some of the best and smartest health reporters in Washington. We’re taping this week on Thursday, Sept. 14, at 11 a.m. As always, news happens fast, and things might have changed by the time you hear this. So, here we go. We’re joined today by video conference by Margot Sanger-Katz of The New York Times.

Margot Sanger-Katz: Good morning, everybody.

Huetteman: Sarah Karlin-Smith of the Pink Sheet.

Sarah Karlin-Smith: Hi there.

Huetteman: And Joanne Kenen of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico.

Joanne Kenen: Hi, everybody.

Huetteman: No interview this week, so let’s get right to the news. The percentage of working-age adults with health insurance went up last year, according to the annual Census report out this week. As a result, the uninsured rate dropped to 10.8% in 2022. But lower uninsured rates may be obscuring another problem: the number of people who are underinsured and facing high out-of-pocket costs. The Commonwealth Fund released a report last month on how difficult it is for many older adults with employer coverage to afford care. And recent reporting here at KFF Health News has probed how medical providers are steering patients toward bank loans and credit cards that saddled them with interest on top of their medical debt. So, the number of people without insurance is dropping. But that doesn’t mean that health care is becoming more affordable. So what does it mean to be underinsured? Are the policy conversations that focus on the uninsured rate missing the mark?

Sanger-Katz: So, two things I would say. One is that I even think that the Census report on what’s happening with the uninsured is obscuring a different issue, which is that there’s been this artificial increase in the number of people who are enrolled in Medicaid as a result of this pandemic policy. So the Congress said to the states, if you want to get extra money for your Medicaid program through the public health emergency, then you can’t kick anyone out of Medicaid regardless of whether they are no longer eligible for the program. And that provision expired this spring. And so this is one of the big stories in health policy that’s happening this year. States are trying to figure out how to reevaluate all of these people who have been in their Medicaid program for all these years and determine who’s eligible and who’s not eligible. And there’s been quite a lot of very good reporting on what’s going on. And I think there’s a combination of people who are losing their Medicaid coverage because they really genuinely are no longer eligible for Medicaid. And there also appears to be quite a large number of people who are losing their Medicaid coverage for administrative hiccup reasons — because there’s some paperwork error, or because they moved and they didn’t get a letter, or some other glitch in the system. And so when I looked at these numbers on the uninsured rate, in some ways what it told us is we gave a whole bunch of people insurance through these public programs during the pandemic and that depressed the uninsured rate. But we know right now that millions of people have lost insurance, even in the last few months, with more to come later this year. And so I’m very interested in the next installment of the Census report when we get back to more or less a normal Medicaid system, how many people will be without insurance. So that’s just one thing. And then just to get to your question, I think having insurance does not always mean that you can actually afford to pay for the health care that you need. We’ve seen over the last few decades a shift towards higher-deductible health care plans where people have to pay more money out-of-pocket before their insurance kicks in. We’ve also seen other kinds of cost sharing increase, where people have to pay higher copayments or a percentage of the cost of their care. And we’ve also seen, particularly in the Obamacare exchanges, but also in the employer market, that there’s a lot of insurance that doesn’t include any kind of out-of-network benefit. So it means, you know, if you can go to a provider who is covered by your insurance, your insurance will pay for it. But if you can’t find someone who’s covered by your insurance, you could still get hit with a big bill. The sort of surprise bills of old are banned. But, you know, the doctor can tell you in advance, and you can go and get all these medical services and then end up with some big bills. So whether or not just having an insurance card is really enough to ensure that people have access to health care remains an open question. And I think we have seen a lot of evidence over recent years that even people with insurance encounter a lot of financial difficulties when they get sick and often incur quite a lot of debt despite having insurance that protects them from the unlimited costs that they might face if they were uninsured.

Huetteman: Joanne.

Kenen: I would say two big things. The uninsurance rate, which we all think is going to go up because of this Medicaid unwinding, it’s worth stopping and thinking about. It’s what? 7.9[%]? Was that the number?

Huetteman: It was 10.8, was the uninsured rate last year.

Sanger-Katz: It depends if you look at any time of the year or all of the year.

Kenen: Back when the ACA [Affordable Care Act] was passed, it was closer to something like 18. So in terms of really changing the magnitude of the uninsurance problem in America, the work isn’t done. But this is a really significant change. Secondly, some aspects of care are better — or within reach because the ACA made so many preventive and primary care services free. That, too, is a gain. Obviously, through the medical debt, which KFF [Health News] now has done a great job — oh, and believe me, and other reporters, you’ve done an amazing job, story after story. You know, the “Bill of the Month” series that you edited, it’s … but they’re not isolated cases. It’s not like, oh, this person ran into this, you know, cost buzz saw. There’s insane pricing issues! And out-of-pocket and, you know, deductibles and extras, and incredibly hard to sort out even if you are a sophisticated, insured consumer of health care. Pricing is a mess. There have been changes to the health care market, in terms of consolidation of ownership, more private equity, bigger entities that just have created … added a new dimension to this problem. So have we made gains? We’ve made really important gains. Under the original ACA passed under the Obama administration and the changes, the access and generosity of subsidy changes that the Biden administration has made, even though they’re time-limited, they have to be renewed. But, you know, are people still being completely hit over the head and every other body part by really expensive costs? Yes. That is still a heartbreaking and really serious problem. I mean, I can just give one tiny incident where somebody … I needed a routine imaging thing in network. The doctor in that hospital wasn’t reachable. I had my primary care person send in the order because she’s not part of that health care system. She’s in network. The imaging center is in network. The doctor who told me I needed this test is in network. But because the actual order came from somebody not in their hospital and in … on the Maryland side of the line, instead of the D.C. side of the line, the hospital imaging center decided it was going to be out of network. And because she’s not ours and wanted to charge me an insane amount of money. I sorted it out. But it took me an insane amount of time and I shouldn’t have needed to do that.

Huetteman: Yeah, that’s absolutely true.

Kenen: I could have paid it, if I had to.

Huetteman: Absolutely. And as you noted, I do edit the “Bill of the Month” series. And we see that with all kinds of patients, even the most enterprising patients can’t get an answer to simple questions like, is this in network or out of network? Why did I get this bill? And it’s asking way too much of most people to try and fit that into the rest of the things that they do every day. You know, Margot brought up the Medicaid unwinding. Well, let’s speaking of insurance, let’s catch up there for a moment because there was a little news this week. We’re keeping an eye on those efforts to strip ineligible beneficiaries from state Medicaid rolls since the covid-19 public health emergency ended. Now, some state officials are worried that people who lose coverage could opt to replace it with short-term insurance plans. You might know them as “junk plans.” They often come with lower price tags, but these short-term plans do not have to follow the Affordable Care Act’s rules about what to cover. And people in the plans have found themselves owing for care they thought would be covered. The Trump administration expanded these plans, but this summer the Biden administration proposed limiting them once more. Remind us: What changes has Biden proposed for so-called junk plans and for people who lose their coverage during the Medicaid unwinding? What other options are available to them?

Sanger-Katz: So the Biden administration’s proposal was to basically return these short-term plans to actual short-term coverage, which is what they were designed to do. Part of what the Trump administration did is they kept this category of short-term plans. But then they said basically, well, you can just keep them for several years. And so they really became a more affordable but less comprehensive substitute for ACA-compliant insurance. So the Biden administration just wants to kind of squish ’em back down and say, OK, you can have them for like a couple of months, but you can’t keep them forever. I will say that a lot of people who are losing their Medicaid coverage as a result of the unwinding are probably pretty low on the income scale, just as a result of them having qualified for Medicaid in the first place. And so a very large share of them are eligible for free or close-to-free health plans on the Obamacare exchanges. Those enhanced subsidies that Joanne mentioned, they’re temporary, but they’re there for a few years. They really make a big difference for exactly this population that’s losing Medicaid coverage. If you’re just over the poverty line, you can often get a free plan that’s a — this is very technical, but — it’s a silver plan with these cost-sharing wraparound benefits. And so you end up with a plan where you really don’t have to pay very much at the point of care. You don’t have to pay anything in a premium. So I think, in general, that is the most obvious answer for most of these people who are losing their Medicaid. But I think it is a challenge to navigate that system, for states to help steer people towards these other options, and for them to get enrolled in a timely way. Because, of course, Obamacare markets are not open all the time. They’re open during an open enrollment period or for a short period after you lose another type of coverage.

Huetteman: Absolutely. And a lot of these states actually have efforts that are normally focused on open enrollment right now. And some officials say that they are redirecting those efforts toward helping these folks who are losing their Medicaid coverage to find the options, like those exchange plans that are available for zero-dollar premiums or low premiums under the subsidies available.

Kenen: I have seen some online ads from HHS [the Department of Health and Human Services], saying, you know, “Did you lose your Medicaid?” and it’s state-specific — “Did you lose your Medicaid in Virginia?” I don’t live in Virginia, so I’m not sure why I’m getting it. My phone is telling me the Virginia one. But there is an HHS [ad], and it is saying if you lost your Medicaid, go to healthcare.gov, we can help. You know, we may be able to help you. So they are outreaching, although I’m afraid that somebody who actually lost it in Virginia might be getting an ad about Nebraska or whatever. I live close to Virginia. It’s close enough. But there is some effort to reach people in a plain English, accessible pop-up on your phone, or your web browser, kind of way. So I have seen that over the last few weeks because the special enrollment period, I mean, most people who are no longer eligible for Medicaid are eligible for something, and something other than a junk plan. Some of them have insurance at work now because the job market is better than it was in 2020, obviously. Many people will be eligible for these highly subsidized plans that Margot just talked about. Very few people should be left out in the cold, but there’s a lot of work to be done to make those connections.

Huetteman: Absolutely. Absolutely. And going back to the Census report for a second, it had noted that a big part of the increase in coverage came from employer-sponsored coverage among working-age adults, although we have, of course, seen those reports that say … and then they try to afford their health care costs. And it’s really difficult for a lot of them, even when they have that insurance, as we talked about. All right. So let’s move on. The New York Times is reporting a mystery unfolding in the federal budget. And I’d like to call it “The Case of Flat Medicare Spending.” After decades of warnings about runaway government spending, a recent Times analysis shows that spending per Medicare beneficiary has actually leveled off over more than a decade. Meanwhile, The Wall Street Journal reports that private health insurance costs are climbing. Next year, employer-sponsored plans could see their biggest cost increase in more than a decade, and that trend could continue. So what’s going on with insurance costs? Let’s start with Medicare. Margot, you were the lead reporter on the Times analysis. What explains this Medicare spending slowdown?

Sanger-Katz: So part of the reason why I have found it to be a somewhat enjoyable story is that I think there is a bit of a mystery. I talked to lots of people who have studied and written about this phenomenon over the years, and I think there was no one I talked to who said “I 100% understand what is going on here. And I can tell you, here’s the thing.” But there are a bunch of factors that I think a lot of people think are contributing, and I’ll just run through them quickly. One of them is Medicare is getting a little younger. The baby boomers are retiring generally, like, 65-year-olds are a little cheaper to take care of than 85-year-olds. So as the age mix gets younger, we’ve seen the average cost of taking care of someone in Medicare get a little smaller. That’s like the easiest one. I think another one is that Obamacare and other legislative changes that Congress has passed during this period have just mechanically reduced the amount of money that Medicare is spending. So the two most obvious ways are, in the Affordable Care Act, Congress took money away from Medicare Advantage plans, paid them a smaller premium for taking care of patients, and they also reduced the amount that hospitals get every year, as what’s called a productivity adjustment. So hospitals get a little raise on their pay rates every year. And the legislation tamped that down. There was also, some listeners may remember, the budget sequester that happened in 2011, 2012, where there was kind of a haircut that Medicare had to take across the board. So there have been these kind of legislative changes. They explain like a little bit of what is going on. And now I think the rest of it really has to do with the health care system itself. And part of that seems to be that this has been a period of relatively limited technological improvement. So, you know, for years medicine just kept getting better and better. We had these miracle cures, we had these amazing surgeries. We, you know, especially like in the area of cardiovascular disease, just enormous advances in recent decades where, you know, first bypass surgery and then stents and then, you know, drugs that could prevent heart attacks. And so I think, you know, health care spending kept climbing and climbing in part because there was better stuff to spend it on. It was expensive, but it really improved people’s health. And in recent years, there’s just been a little less of that. There have clearly been medical advances, particularly in the pharmaceutical space. You know, we have better treatments for cancer, for certain types of cancers, than we had before and for other important diseases. But these expensive innovations tend to affect smaller percentages of people. We haven’t had a lot of really big blockbusters that everyone in Medicare is taking. And so that seems to explain some of the slowdown. And then I think the last piece is, like, kind of the piece that’s the hardest to really explain or pin down, but it seems like there’s just something different that doctors and hospitals are doing. They’re getting more efficient. They’re not always buying the latest and greatest thing, if there’s not evidence to support it. They’re reducing their medical errors. And, you know, I think Obamacare probably gets a share of the credit here. It really created a lot of changes in the way we pay for medical care and in the Medicare program itself. And it created this innovation center that’s supposed to test out all of these different things. But I think also over the same period, we’ve seen the private sector make many of the same moves. You know, private insurers have gotten a little bit more stingy about covering new technologies without evidence. They’ve tended to pay physicians and hospitals in bundles, or paying them incentives for quality, not paying them for certain types of care that involve errors. And so a lot of people I talked to said that they think the medical system is reacting to all of the payers crunching down on them. And so they’re just not being quite as aggressive and they’re trying to think more about value, which I feel like is like kind of a lame buzzword that often doesn’t mean anything. But I think, you know, it’s a way of thinking about this change. And, you know, that’s the kind of thing, if culturally that endures, you know, could continue into the future. Whereas some of these other factors, like the demographics, the lack of technological development, those — the Obamacare, which was kind of a one-time legislative change, you know — those things may not continue into the future, which is why the fact that we’ve had 15 years of flat Medicare spending is no guarantee that Medicare spending won’t spike again in the future. And I think you were right to point to what’s happening in the private sector, because private sector insurance premiums also have been like a little bit on the flat side through this period. And I think there is potential for them to take off again.

Huetteman: Absolutely. And that’s what The Wall Street Journal’s reporting had just said, that the health care costs for coming into next year are climbing. Let’s talk about that for a minute. Why are private insurance costs rising as Medicare spending levels off? One of the things that I noticed is we talked about technological innovation. Pharmaceutical innovation seems to be one of the things that’s contributing to rising private health insurance costs and elsewhere, in particular, those weight-loss drugs I know.

Kenen: And the Alzheimer’s drugs.

Huetteman: And the Alzheimer’s drugs.

Kenen: Eventually they’ll become more widely available. Sarah knows way more than the rest of us.

Karlin-Smith: The Alzheimer’s drugs will probably be less of an issue for the private health insurance population. But certainly weight-loss drugs are something that private insurers are worried about what percentage of the population they will cover with these drugs. And I think insurance companies, they have to balance that … difficult balance between what percentage of the drug cost rate you put on patients and what do you build into premiums. And sometimes there’s only so much flexibility they can have there. So I think that’s a big reason for what you’re seeing here.

Huetteman: Yeah, absolutely.

Sanger-Katz: I think the weight-loss drugs are interesting because they kind of are, potentially, an example of the kind of technology that is both expensive and good for public health, right? So, you know, when we have all these improvements in cardiac disease, like, that was great. People didn’t have heart attacks. They didn’t have disability in old age. They lived longer lives. That was great. But it cost a ton of money. And I think because we have been going through this period in which costs have been kind of level, and there hasn’t been a lot of expensive breakthrough technology, we haven’t had to weigh those things against each other in the way that we might now, where we might have to say, OK, well, like, this is really expensive, but also, like, it has a lot of benefits. and how do we decide what the right cost benefit is as a society, as an employer, as a public insurance program? And I think we’re going to see a lot of payers and economists and other analysts really thinking hard about these trade-offs in a way that they, I think, haven’t really been forced to do very much in the last few years with … I mean, maybe with the possible exception of those breakthrough therapies for hepatitis C —also expensive, huge public health benefit. And it was a struggle for our system to figure out what to do with them.

Kenen: But, like the statins, which, you know, revolutionized heart health, these drugs that are useful for both diabetes and … weight loss, the demand of people who just want them because they want to lose those 20 pounds, insurers are not — Medicare at least is not — covering it. Insurers have some rules about “Are you pre-diabetic?” and etc., etc., but they cost a lot of money and a lot of people want to take them. So I think they’re clearly great for diabetes. They clearly are a whole new class of drugs that are going to do good things. We still don’t. … There’s still questions about who should be using them for the rest of their lives, for weight control, etc., etc. Yes, there are going to be benefits, but this era of … what is the typical cost per month, Sarah?

Karlin-Smith: The list price of these drugs are thousands of dollars per month. But I think to your point, Joanne, though, the trouble for insurance companies who are figuring out how to cover this is they’re starting to get more research that there are these actual health benefits outside of just weight loss. And once you start to say, you know, that these drugs help prevent heart attacks and have hard evidence of that, it becomes harder for them to deny coverage. I think to Margot’s point of the long-term benefits, you might see to health because of it, we get back to another issue in the U.S. health system is, which is these private health insurance companies might essentially basically be footing the bill for benefits that Medicare is going to reap, not necessarily the insurance companies, right? So if somebody, you know, doesn’t have a heart attack at 50 because they’re on these drugs, that’s great. But if the savings is actually going to Medicare down the line, you know, the private health insurer doesn’t see the benefit of that. And that’s where some of the tensions you get into it in terms of, like, how we cover these products and who we give them to.

Kenen: Because that trade-off: quality of life and longevity of life. That’s what health is about, right? I mean, is having people live healthy, good lives, and it costs money. But there’s this issue of the drug prices have gotten very high, and hepatitis C is a perfect example. I mean, now it’s like we were freaked out about $84,000 in, you know, 2013, 2015, whenever that came out. You know, now that looks quaint. But that price was still so high that we didn’t get it to people. We could have wiped out hepatitis C or come damn close to wiping out hepatitis C, but the price the drug was an obstacle. So we’re still, I mean, there’s a big White House initiative now, you know, there’s creative … the Louisiana model of, you know, what they call the Netflix model where, you know, you have a contract to buy a whole ton of it for less per unit. I mean, these are still questions. Yes. I mean, we all know that certain drugs make a big difference. But if they’re priced at a point where people who need them the most can’t get them, then you’re not seeing what they’re really invented for.

Sanger-Katz: Oh, I was just going to say, I think that part of what interests me about this particular class of drugs and the debates that we are likely to have about them, and there are, you know, the way that they’re going to be adopted into our health care system is that setting aside the diabetes indication for a moment, the idea of drugs that effectively treat obesity, I think obesity is a very stigmatized disease in our country. And in fact, Medicare has statutory language that says that Medicare cannot cover drugs for weight loss. So it would actually require an act of Congress for these drugs to be approved for that purpose in Medicare. And in Medicaid, in general, states are required to cover FDA-approved drugs. You know, they can put some limitations, but they’re supposed to cover them. Again, there is a special statutory exclusion for weight-loss drugs where the states really have discretion they don’t have for a cancer drug, for a drug for diabetes, a drug for other common diseases. And so I do think that, you know, a lot of this debate is colored by people’s prejudices against people who have obesity, and the way that our medical care system has thought about them and the treatment for their disease over time. And I’m curious about that aspect of it as well. I mean, of course, I think that Joanne is absolutely right that we do not know long term how these drugs are going to help people with obesity, whether it’s really going to reduce the burden of disease down the road for them, whether it’s going to have other health consequences in an enduring way. You know, I think there are unknowns, but I think if you take the most optimistic possible look at these drugs, that there’s quite a lot of evidence that they really do improve people’s health. And if we treat these drugs differently than we would an expensive drug for an infectious disease like hepatitis C or different from an expensive drug for cancer diseases that are less stigmatized, I think that would maybe be a little bit sad.

Karlin-Smith: I mean certainly the reason why the initial restrictions in Medicare and other programs are baked in goes back to stigma to some degree. But also, I mean … because they were thinking of these as weight-loss drugs and sort of vanity treatments people would only be using for vanity. And at that time, the drugs that were available did not work quite as well and had a lot of dangers and certainly did not show any of these other health benefits that we’re starting to see with this new class of medicine. So I think that would be the hope that, you know, as the science and the products shift, as well as our medical understanding around what causes obesity, what doesn’t cause obesity, how much of it is … right, again, just as medical as any other condition and not all about a person’s behavior. And I think we will see that the benefits of some of these drugs for certain people, in particular, are probably a lot bigger than maybe the benefits of certain cancer treatments that we pay a lot more money for. The challenge is going to be the amount of people and the amount of time they are going to be on these drugs, right? You know, if you’re talking about these hepatitis C drugs, I think one reason they didn’t shock the budgets in the way people were expecting, besides the fact that, unfortunately, we didn’t get them to everybody, is they’re actually really short-term cures, right? I think it’s like 10 weeks or something.

Kenen: Some are like eight.

Karlin-Smith: Right. Ballpark. And with the obesity drugs, what we know … these new drugs so far is that you seem like you have to consistently take them. Once you get off them, the weight comes back. And then the assumption would be you lose all those health benefits. So we’re talking about a high-cost drug on a chronic basis that our system can’t afford.

Kenen: Margot, do you know? I mean, my guess is that the ban on covering weight-loss drugs was written into MMA [the Medicare Modernization Act] in 2003. That’s my guess. I don’t know if anyone …

Sanger-Katz: That’s right. Yeah. It was part of the creation of the drug benefit program.

Kenen: So I think that you’re totally right that it’s what both of you said. You know, we tended to say it was someone’s fault, like they didn’t have enough willpower. Or they, you know, didn’t do what they were supposed to do. And there was stigma and we thought about it diffrently. I also think the science, you know, Sarah alluded to this, I think the science of obesity has really changed, that we didn’t talk about it — even though obesity experts — really didn’t talk about it as a disease a generation ago. We thought of it as maybe as a risk factor, but we didn’t think of it as a disease in and of itself. And we now do know that. So I think that the coverage issues are going to change. But what are the criteria? How fast do they change, for who do they change? Do you really want to put somebody on a drug because they want to lose 10 or 15 punds, which is … versus someone who really has struggled with weight and has physical risk factors because of it, including, you know, heart disease, diabetes, all these other things we know about. I mean, I just think we don’t know. I mean, there was a piece in the Times about the Upper East Side of Manhattan is like this beehive of people taking these weight loss drugs because they can afford it, but they’re also thinner than the rest of the population. So it becomes, you know, a luxury good or another disparity.

Sanger-Katz: If insurance won’t cover these drugs ,of course, rich people are going to take them more than people of limited means. Right? Like, I think you can only really test the hypothesis of, like, who are these drugs meant to reach once … if you have coverage for them, right? I thought that story was very good, and it did reveal something that’s happening. But I also thought … it felt like it was focusing on the idea that that rich people were taking these drugs just for vanity. And I think …

Kenen: Some of them, not all clearly some of them.

Sanger-Katz: Some of them are, of course. But I thought the thing that was less explored in that story is all of the people in poor neighborhoods of New York who were not accessing those drugs. Was it because they couldn’t find any way to get them?

Kenen: Right, and some of them were pre-diabetic. Some of them. I mean, the other thing is people who are overweight are often pre-diabetic. And that is an indication. I mean, you can … it’s in flux. It’s going to change over the coming months, you know, but what a cost and how those benefits paid off and who’s going to end up paying and where the cost shifting is going to come, because there is always cost shifting. We just don’t know yet. But these drugs are here to stay. And there are questions. There are a lot of questions. The mounting evidence is that they are going to be a benefit. It’s just, you know, what do we pay for them? Who gets them? How long do the people stay on them, etc., etc., etc.

Sanger-Katz: And just to come back to Emmarie’s first question, like, what is this going to mean for our insurance premiums, right? With something like 40% of adults in the United States have obesity. If we start to see more and more people taking these drugs to treat this disease, all of us are going to have to pay for that in some way. And, you know, that affects overall health care.

Huetteman: Absolutely. Well, let’s move to the week’s big covid news now. This week, the FDA approved a new booster, which comes amid an uptick in cases and concerns about a surge this fall and winter. Before the CDC made its recommendations, though, there was debate over whether the booster should be recommended only for a couple of higher-risk groups. So who does the CDC say should get the shot? And what’s the response been like from the health care community so far?

Karlin-Smith: So the CDC decided their advisers and the CDC themselves to recommend the shot for everybody. That really didn’t surprise me because I think that was the direction FDA wanted to go as well. I think the majority came down to the fact that a broad recommendation would be the best for health equity and actually ensuring the people we really want to get the shots get them. If you start siphoning off the population and so forth, it actually might prevent people that really should get the shots from getting it. I think the booster debate has actually been really similar since we started approving covid boosters, which is that the companies that provided for the boosters is not the same as the original data they presented to get the vaccines approved. So we don’t have as much understanding with the type of rigorous research some people would like to know: OK, what is the added benefit you’re getting from these boosters? We know they provide some added benefit of protection for infection, but that’s very short-lived. And then I think there’s … people have differences of opinions of how much added protection it’s giving you from severe disease and death. And so there are factions who argue, and I think Paul Offit has become one of the most known and vocal cheerleaders of this mindset, which is that, well, actually, if you’ve already had, you know, two, three, four shots, you’ve already had covid, you’re probably really well protected against the worst outcomes. And these shots are not really going to do that much to protect you from an infection. “So why take them anymore?” — essentially, is sort of his mindset. And there are people that disagree. I think the thing that probably might help change mindsets is, at least in this country, probably not going to happen, which is, you know, more rigorous outcomes research here. But I think the sentiment of the CDC and its advice has been, well, these shots are extremely low risk and there’s at least some added benefit. So for most people, the risk-benefit balance is: Get it. And if you make it kind of simple, if you say, OK, you know, everybody, it’s time to get your next covid booster, the feeling is that will get the most people in the U.S. to go out and do it. Unfortunately, most covid booster recommendations have been fairly broad — the last, at least, and that hasn’t translated. But we’ll see. This is actually the first time that everyone, except for babies under 6 months — because you can’t start your covid vaccination until then —everybody is really included in the booster recommendation at the same time. In previous rounds, particularly for younger kids, it was more staggered. So this will be the simplest recommendation we have yet.

Kenen: And that’s part of the public health strategy, is to not talk about it so much as boosters, just as an annual shot. The way you get an annual flu shot. I mean, most people don’t get them. But the idea is that to normalize this, you know, you get an annual flu shot, you get an annual covid shot, for certain age groups you get annual RSV now that’ll be available. But that’s not for everybody. I mean, I think they really want to make this simple. OK, it’s fall, get your covid shot. We don’t think uptake is going to be real high. It hasn’t been for boosters. But in terms of trying to change, this is just, you know, this is one of those things to add to your to-do list this year and to, sort of, less “pandemicize” it. I don’t think that’s a word. But, you know, everyone will forgive me. And more just, you know, OK, you know, this is one of the things you got to do in the fall. Maybe “pandemicize” is a word or maybe it should be.

Sanger-Katz: I like it. Maybe we should use it.

Huetteman: Pandemicize your care.

Kenen: Right. You know, it’s part of your preventive care and just … I mean, good luck trying to de-politicize it. But that’s part of it. I mean, the CDC director, Mandy Cohen, she wrote an op-ed this week and it was all about, you know, I’m a doctor, I’m the CDC director, and I’m a mom. And, you know, my family is going to get it. You know, Ashish Jha was tweeting about how he’s going to get it, his elderly parents are going to get theirs as soon as possible, etc., etc. So it’s not going to be … the hard-core people who really don’t want these shots and haven’t taken the shots and believe the shots cause more harm than good, etc. It won’t change a lot of their minds. But there are a lot of people who are uncertain in the middle and their minds can be changed. And they have … they were changed in the initial round of shots. So that’s who the messaging is … it’s sort of a reminder to people who take the shots and an invitation to those who … haven’t been getting boosted that just start doing this every year.

Karlin-Smith: And it is important to emphasize when the boosters have been tweaked and, you know, updated to try to match as close as they possibly can the current version of the virus. The virus has evolved and shifted a lot over time to the point where even these boosters, you know, they can’t quite keep up with the virus. But the idea is that we’re helping broaden everybody’s protection by keeping it as up to date with the science. So I think that’s an important element of that, that people don’t appreciate. They’re not just giving you the exact same shot over and over again. They’re trying to, like we do with the flu vaccine every year, be as close to what is circulating as possible.

Kenen: And there’s a new, new, new, new variant that looked very — do I have enough “news” in there? — that looked, and I don’t remember the initials; I can’t keep track — that is really quite different than the other ones. And there was a lot of initial concern that this vaccine would not work or that we wouldn’t … that our protection would not work against that. The follow-up research is much more reassuring that the fall shot will work against that. But that one really is different, and it’s got a lot of mutations. And, you know, we don’t know yet how … some of these things come and go pretty quickly. I mean, who remembers Mu? That one people were very worried about and it seemed quite dangerous and luckily it didn’t take root. You know, people don’t even know there was a Greek letter called Mu. M-u, not m-o-o, in case anyone’s wondering. If relatives ask me if they should take it, the two things that struck me in reading about it are, yes, it works against this new variant, and we’re not really sure what are the new, new, new, new, new, new, new, new ones. And also, I mean, there’s some research that it does protect against long covid. And I think that’s a big selling point for people. I think there are people who still, with reason, worry about long covid, and that vaccination does provide some protection against that as well.

Huetteman: That’s a great point. I mean, anecdotally, you talk to your friends who’ve had covid, there’s going to be at least a few of them who say they haven’t quite felt like themselves ever since they had covid. And I think that is one of the things that really motivates people who aren’t in those higher-risk categories, to think about whether they need the booster or not.

Kenen: Yeah, and also the myocarditis … Sarah, correct …  you follow this more closely than I do, so correct me if I’m wrong here, but I believe that they’re finding that the myocarditis risk in the newer formulations of the vaccine has dropped, that it is not as much of a concern for young men. And covid itself can cause myocarditis in some individuals. Did I get that right?

Karlin-Smith: Yeah, I think that that’s right. The general sense has been that the risk was more with the initial shots, and it seems to have gone down. I think that there are people that still worry about particular age groups of, like, young men in certain age groups, that maybe for them the benefit-risk balance with the myocarditis risk is, you know, might be a little bit different. And that’s where a lot of the pushback comes through. But right, like you said, there is a fairly high … there’s myocarditis risk from covid itself that needs to be balanced.

Huetteman: Well, OK. That’s this week’s news. Now we’ll take a quick break and then we’ll come back with extra credits.

Julie Rovner: Hey, “What the Health?” listeners, you already know that few things in health care are ever simple. So, if you like our show, I recommend you also listen to “Tradeoffs,” a podcast that goes even deeper into our costly, complicated, and often counterintuitive health care system. Hosted by longtime health care journalist and friend Dan Gorenstein, “Tradeoffs” digs into the evidence and research data behind health care policies and tells the stories of real people impacted by decisions made in C-suites, doctors’ offices, and even Congress. Subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts.

Huetteman: OK, we’re back. And it’s time for our extra-credit segment. That’s when we each recommend a story we read this week that we think you should read, too. As always, don’t worry if you miss it; we’ll post the links on the podcast page at kffhealthnews.org and in our show notes on your phone or other mobile device. Sarah, why don’t you go first?

Karlin-Smith: Sure. So I looked at a MedPage Today page by Kristina Fiore that talks about a GoFundMe campaign that was started by a small rural hospital in Pennsylvania. They’re trying to raise $1.5 million to basically keep the hospital open. It’s the only hospital in the county. It’s a small critical-access hospital. And I think people who follow health care and health policy in the U.S. are probably used to seeing GoFundMe campaigns for individual health care, as we talked about earlier in the episode, right? The unaffordability that can happen even for people with good insurance if you … depending on your medical situation. But this situation, I thought, was really unique, a whole hospital, which is, I guess, community-owned, and they’re essentially turning to the internet to try and stay open. And it touches on some of the payment differences in how rural hospitals make their money, or the payment rates they get reimbursed versus more urban hospitals. Other issues it brings up is just, you know, how do you keep an institution open that’s serving a relatively small population of people? So, you don’t necessarily want to have people going to the hospital, but they’re basically arguing that if we don’t get this amount of people in our ER per day, we can’t stay open. But then that means you don’t have an ER for anybody. And I think it’s just worth looking at, looking at the facts they put on their GoFundMe page, just thinking about, you know, what this says about various policies in the U.S. health system. And, unfortunately for them right now, they’re well short of their $1.5 billion goal.

Huetteman: Yeah, it’s amazing to see this get translated into an institution-saving effort as opposed to an individual-saving effort. Joanne, you want to go next?

Kenen: Sure. This is a story that it was by Bianca Fortis from ProPublica, Laura Biel, who wrote this for ProPublica and New York Magazine, and also Laura, who’s a friend of mine, also has a fabulous podcast called “Exposed.” And in this case, I want to mention the photographer, too, because if you click on this, it’s quite extraordinary visuals. Hannah Whitaker from New York Magazine. And the title is “How Columbia …” — and this is the university, not the country — “How Columbia Ignored Women, Undermined Prosecutors and Protected a Predator for More Than 20 Years.” This is an OB-GYN who was abusing his patients, and it’s hundreds, hundreds that have been identified and known. We knew about him because some of the patients had come forward, including Evelyn Wang, who was Andrew Wang — is Andrew Wang’s wife, the presidential candidate last cycle. But we didn’t know this. You know, first of all, it’s even bigger than we knew three years ago, and he has been prosecuted — finally. But it took 20 years. And this is really more of a story about how the medical system, the health care system, had warning after warning after warning after warning, and they didn’t do anything. And also, many of the people who tried to give the warnings, some of the employees, including the medical assistants, and the nurses, and the receptionists, knew what was going on. And they thought that they, as lower-level women going up against a white male doctor, wouldn’t be believed. And they didn’t even try. They just felt like he’s the guy, he’s the doctor. I’m the, you know, I’m the nurse. They won’t listen to me. So that was another subtheme that came out to me. I had known vaguely about this. It’s really long, and I read every word. It’s a really horrifying saga of an abdication of responsibility to women who were really harmed. Vulnerable women who were really harmed.

Huetteman: Yeah, it’s a really troubling story, but it’s an important piece of journalism. And I advise that people give it a little time. Margot, would you like to go next?

Sanger-Katz: Yeah. So this is a very nerdy, deep cut. I wanted to talk about a CBO [Congressional Budget Office] report from 2012 called “Raising the Excise Tax on Cigarettes: Effects on Health and the Federal Budget.” So when I published this article about how Medicare spending has sort of flattened out, we got so many reader comments and emails and tweets and several people asked, “Could it be that the decline in smoking has led to lower costs for Medicare?” And that caused me to do some reporting and to read this paper. And I think the finding, the sort of counterintuitive finding that I will tell you about in a minute, from the CBO really speaks to some of the discussion that we were having earlier about these obesity drugs, which is that there are many beneficial preventive therapies in health care that are great for people’s health. They make them healthier, they have happier lives, they live longer, they have less burden of disease, but they are not cost-effective in the sense that they reduce our total spending on health care. And the simplest way to think about this is that if everyone in America just died at age 65, Medicare’s budget would look amazing. You know, it would be great. We would save so much money if we could just kill everyone at age 65. But that’s not what the goal of Medicare is. It’s not to save the maximum amount of money. It’s to get a good value, to improve people’s life and health as much as possible for a good value. And so this report was looking at what would happen if we had a really effective policy to reduce smoking in the United States. They looked at a tax that they estimated would reduce the smoking rate by a further 5 percentage points. And what they found is that it would cost the government more money, that people would be healthier, they would live longer lives, more of them would spend more years in Medicare, and they would end up having some other health problem that was expensive that they weren’t going to have before. And also they would collect a lot of Social Security payments because they would live a lot longer. And so I found it so stunning because the economics of it, I think, make a lot of sense. And when you think about it, it’s true. But it does go to show how, I think, that sometimes when we, and when politicians, talk about preventive health care, they always talk about it like it’s a win-win. You know, this is going to be great for people and it’s going to save money. And I think that in health care, many times things that are good and beneficial improve health and they cost money and we have to decide if it’s worth it.

Huetteman: Absolutely. That’s great. Thank you. My extra credit this week comes from KFF Health News. Dr. Elisabeth Rosenthal, our senior contributing editor, writes: “The Shrinking Number of Primary Care Physicians Is Reaching a Tipping Point.” And we’ve seen some great coverage lately on the disappearance of the primary care doctor in this country. And Dr. Rosenthal also offers some solutions to this yawning gap in our health care system. She reports that the percent of U.S. doctors that have moved into primary care is now at about 25%, which is much lower than in previous decades. And one point she makes, in particular, about a problem that’s leading to this is the payment structure that we have in our country favors surgeries and procedures, of course, not diagnostic tests, preventative care, when it comes to reimbursing doctors. And of course, this lack of primary care doctors has implications for our overall health, both individually and as a country. So I recommend that you give that article a little bit of your time this week.

All right. That’s our show for this week. As always, if you enjoy the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left a review; that helps other people find us, too. Special thanks, as always, to our amazing engineer, Francis Ying. And as always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org. Or you can tweet me. I’m @emmarieDC. Sarah?

Karlin-Smith: I’m @SarahKarlin.

Huetteman: Joanne?

Kenen: @JoanneKenen on Twitter, @joannekenen1 on Threads.

Huetteman: And Margot.

Sanger-Katz: @sangerkatz in all the places.

Huetteman: We’ll be back in your feed next week. Until then, be healthy.

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Julie Rovner is chief Washington correspondent and host of KFF Health News’ weekly health policy news podcast, “What the Health?” A noted expert on health policy issues, Julie is the author of the critically praised reference book “Health Care Politics and Policy A to Z,” now in its third edition.

Congress returns from its August recess with a long list of things to do and not a lot of time to do them. The fiscal year ends Sept. 30, and it’s possible that lawmakers will fail to finish work not only on the annual appropriations bills, but also on any short-term spending bill to keep the government open.

Meanwhile, Medicare has announced the first 10 drugs whose prices will be negotiated under the Inflation Reduction Act of 2022. Exactly how the program will work remains a question, however. Even how the process will begin is uncertain, as drugmakers and other groups have filed lawsuits to stop it.

This week’s panelists are Julie Rovner of KFF Health News, Rachel Cohrs of Stat, Joanne Kenen of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico, and Alice Miranda Ollstein of Politico.

Panelists

Rachel Cohrs
Stat News

@rachelcohrs

Read Rachel's stories

Joanne Kenen
Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico

@JoanneKenen

Read Joanne's stories

Alice Miranda Ollstein
Politico

@AliceOllstein

Read Alice's stories

Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:

• Hard-line Republicans are refusing to back even a temporary government spending bill, suggesting a government shutdown looms — with repercussions for health programs. While the Senate and House have come to intra-chamber agreements on subjects like community health center funding or even have passed spending bills, Congress as a whole has been unable to broker an overarching deal.
• A coalition of House Republicans is falsely claiming that global HIV/AIDS funding through PEPFAR promotes abortion and is battling efforts to extend the program’s funding. PEPFAR is a bipartisan effort spearheaded by then-President George W. Bush and credited with saving millions of lives.
• The PEPFAR fight underscores the dysfunction of the current Congress, which is struggling to fund even a highly regarded, lifesaving program. Another example is the months-long blockade of military promotions by a freshman Republican senator, Alabama’s Tommy Tuberville, a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee. His objections over an abortion-related Pentagon policy have placed him at odds with top military leaders, who recently warned that his heavy-handed approach is weakening military readiness.
• The Biden administration recently announced new staffing requirements for nursing homes, as a way to get more nurses into such facilities. But how long will compliance take, considering ongoing nursing shortages? And the drug industry is reacting to the news of which 10 drugs will be up first for Medicare negotiation, with much left to be sorted out.
• In abortion news, a Texas effort to block patients seeking abortions from using the state’s roads is spreading town to town — and, despite being dubiously enforceable, it could still have a chilling effect.

Also this week, Rovner interviews Meena Seshamani, who leads the federal Medicare program, about the plan to start negotiating drug prices.

Plus, for “extra credit,” the panelists suggest health policy stories they read this week that they think you should read, too:

Julie Rovner: JAMA Health Forum’s “Health Systems and Social Services — A Bridge Too Far?” by Sherry Glied and Thomas D’Aunno.

Alice Miranda Ollstein: The Washington Post’s “Heat’s Hidden Risk,” by Shannon Osaka, Erin Patrick O’Connor, and John Muyskens.

Rachel Cohrs: The Wall Street Journal’s “How Novartis’s CEO Learned From His Mistakes and Got Help From an Unlikely Quarter,” by Jared S. Hopkins.

Joanne Kenen: Politico’s “How to Wage War on Conspiracy Theories,” by Joanne Kenen, and “Court Revives Doctors’ Lawsuit Saying FDA Overstepped Its Authority With Anti-Ivermectin Campaign,” by Kevin McGill.

Also mentioned in this week’s episode:

• The Washington Post’s “Highways Are the Next Antiabortion Target. One Texas Town Is Resisting,” by Caroline Kitchener.
• KFF Health News’ “Biden Administration Proposes New Standards to Boost Nursing Home Staffing,” by Jordan Rau.
• Stat’s “The Curious Case of J&J’s Stelara, The Unluckiest Drug on Medicare’s List,” by Rachel Cohrs.

Click to open the transcript

Transcript: Welcome Back, Congress. Now Get to Work.

[Editor’s note: This transcript, generated using transcription software, has been edited for style and clarity.]

Julie Rovner: Hello and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Julie Rovner, chief Washington correspondent for KFF Health News, and I’m joined by some of the best and smartest health reporters in Washington. We’re taping this week on Thursday, Sept. 7, at 10 a.m. As always, news happens fast, and things might have changed by the time you hear this. So here we go. We are joined today via video conference by Rachel Cohrs of Stat News.

Rachel Cohrs: Good morning.

Rovner: Joanne Kenen of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico.

Joanne Kenen: Hi, everybody.

Rovner: And Alice Miranda Ollstein of Politico.

Alice Miranda Ollstein: Hello.

Rovner: Later in this episode, we’ll have an interview with Meena Seshamani, who runs the Medicare program for the federal government, with an update on the Medicare drug negotiation debate as, we’ll discuss, the first 10 drugs that will be subject to negotiation were announced last week. But first, this week’s news. So Labor Day is behind us, and Congress is back — sort of. The Senate is back. The House returns next week. And there are lots of questions to be answered this fall, starting with whether or not Congress can finish the annual spending bills before the start of fiscal 2024 on Oct. 1. Spoiler: They cannot. But there’s also a real question whether Congress can even pass a short-term bill to keep the government running while lawmakers continue to work on the rest of the appropriations. As of now, what do you guys think are the odds that we’re going to end up with some kind of government shutdown at the end of the month?

Ollstein: Well, it’s whether it happens at the end of the month or at the end of the year, really. Folks seem pretty convinced that it will happen at some point. It could be short-lived. But, yeah, like you said, you have some hard-line House Republicans who say they won’t support even a temporary stopgap bill without spending cuts, policy changes, without sort of extracting some of their demands from leadership. And you could work around that in the House by cobbling together a coalition of Republicans and Democrats. But that also puts [House Speaker Kevin] McCarthy’s leadership in jeopardy. And so, we’re having sort of the same dynamic play out that we saw earlier this year, trying to navigate between the hard-line House Republicans and, you know, the more vulnerable swing districts’ members. So it’s … tough.

Rovner: Yeah, it’s the Republicans from districts that [President Joe] Biden won … basically.

Ollstein: Yeah. And so you have this weird game of chicken right now where both the House and Senate are trying to pass whatever they can to give themselves more leverage in the ultimate House-Senate negotiations. They think, OK, if we pass five bills and they only pass one, you know, then we have the upper hand. So we’ll see where that goes.

Rovner: It’s funny, because the Senate has been a well-oiled machine this year on the spending bills, which is unusual. I was about to say I will point out that there are two women: the chairman and ranking member. But that’s actually also true in the House. We do have women running the appropriations process this year. But I was amused that Kevin McCarthy, sometime during August, a couple of weeks ago, said, you know, very confidently, well, we’ll pass a short-term spending bill. You know, we won’t let the government shut down. And by the next day, the hard-line Republicans, the right wing, were saying, yeah, no you won’t. You’re going to have to deal with us first. And, obviously, there’s lots of health stuff that’s going to get caught up in that. The end of the fiscal year also marks the end of funding authority for a number of prominent programs. This is not the same as the appropriations programs whose authorizations lapse can continue, although things can get complicated. PEPFAR, the two-decade-old bipartisan program that provides AIDS and HIV prevention and treatment around the world, is one of those programs that, at least as of now, looks pretty stuck. Alice, is there any movement on this? We’ve talked about it before.

Ollstein: Not yet. So the latest we know, and we got this last night, is that [Foreign Relations Committee] Chairman [Bob] Menendez in the Senate is floating a new compromise. Basically, supporters of PEPFAR have been pushing for the full five-year standard reauthorization. And a coalition of House Republicans who are claiming that PEPFAR money is going to abortion say they want no reauthorization at all. They just want the program to sort of limp along through appropriations. So between five years and zero, Menendez is now suggesting a three-year extension. There is a huge desire not to just have the one-year funding patch because that would kick all of this into the heat of the 2024 season. And if you think the debate is ugly now over abortion and federal spending, just wait until 2024.

Kenen: I mean, this … [unintelligible] money … it’s saved tens of millions of lives — and with bipartisan support in the past.

Rovner: It was a Republican initiative.

Kenen: Right. It was President Bush, George the second.

Rovner: George W. Bush. Yeah.

Kenen: And they’re not saying they’re actually going out and using the AIDS dollars to conduct, to actually do abortions. They’re saying that there’s, you know, they’re in the world of abortion and they’re promoting abortion, etc., etc. So the conversation gets really, really, really, really muddled. Under U.S. law, they cannot use U.S. dollars for abortion under the Hyde Amendment, you know, all sorts of other foreign policy rules. So it’s hard to overstate how important this program has been, particularly in Africa. It has saved millions and millions of lives. And I think Alice might have broken the story originally, but it got caught up in abortion politics, and it caught people by surprise. This is not something … everything in Washington gets caught up in politics, except this! So I think it’s been quite shocking to people. And it’s, I mean — life-and-death sounds like a, you know, it’s a Washington cliché — this is life-and-death.

Ollstein: Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, even though the program won’t shut down if they don’t manage to get a reauthorization through, you know, I talked to people who run PEPFAR services in other countries, and they said that, you know, having this year-to-year funding and instability and uncertainty — you know, they won’t be able to hire, they won’t be able to do long-term planning. They said this will really undermine the goal to eliminate HIV transmission by 2030.

Cohrs: Oh, I actually did just want to jump in about another Sept. 30 deadline, because there was a big development this week. I know we were just talking about long-term planning. There is funding for community health centers that’s expiring at the end of September as well. DSH cuts could go into effect for hospitals. We do this routine every so often, but the House is actually more in step than the Senate on this issue; they released — at least Republicans released — a draft legislation, where all three committees of jurisdiction are in agreement about how to proceed. There are some transparency measures in there.

Rovner: The three committees in the House.

Cohrs: In the House. Yes, yes, we’re talking about the House. Yeah. So, they have reconciled their differences here and are hoping to go to the floor this month. So, I think they are out of the gate first, certainly with some sort of longer-term solution here. Again, could get punted. But I think it is a pretty big development when we’re talking about these extenders that the industry cares about very much.

Kenen: Congress is so polarized that it can’t even do the things that it agrees on. And we have seen this before where CHIP [Children’s Health Insurance Program] got caught up a few years ago. Community health clinics have gotten caught right in that same bill, right? But, you know, we really have this situation where it’s so dysfunctional they can’t even move fully on things that everybody likes. And community health centers date back to the early ’60s. However, they got a really big expansion, again, under second President Bush. And they’re popular, and they serve a need, and everybody likes them.

Rovner: They got a bigger expansion under the Affordable Care Act.

Kenen: Right, but they, you know — but I think that the Bush years was like the biggest in many years. And then they got more. So again, I mean, are they going to shut their doors? No. Is it going to be a mess? It is already a mess. They can’t — they don’t know what’s coming next. That’s no way to run a railroad or a health clinic.

Rovner: All right, well, one more while we’re on the subject of abortion-related delays: Alabama Sen. Tommy Tuberville is still blocking Senate approval of routine military promotions to protest the Biden administration’s policy of allowing funding for servicewomen and military dependents to travel for abortions if they’re posted to states where it’s banned. Now, the secretaries of the Army, Navy, and Air Force are joining together to warn that Tuberville’s hold is threatening military readiness. Tuberville apparently went on Fox News last night and said he’s got more people who are coming to support him. Is there any end to this standoff in sight? I mean, people seem to be getting kind of upset about it. It’s been going on since, what, February?

Ollstein: Yeah, there is not yet an end in sight. So far, all of the attempts to pressure Tuberville to back down have only hardened his resolve, it seems, you know, and he’s gone beyond sort of his original statement of, you know, all of this is just to get rid of this policy that doesn’t pay for abortions; it just allows people to travel out of state if they’re stationed — they don’t get to choose where they’re stationed — if they’re stationed somewhere where abortion is not legal or accessible. And so now he’s making claims about other things in the military he considers too woke. He’s criticized some of these individual nominees themselves that he’s blocking, which was not sort of part of the original stand he took. And so, it’s tough, and there isn’t enough floor time to move all of these and go around him. And so this pressure campaign doesn’t seem to be really making any headway. So I don’t really see how this gets resolved at this point.

Kenen: Except that other Republicans are getting a little bit more public. I mean, they were sort of letting him run out for a while. And there’s more Republicans who are clearly getting enough of this. But I mean, unless McConnell can really get him to move — and we don’t know what’s gone on behind closed doors, but we’re certainly not seeing any sign of movement. In fact, as Alice said, he’s digging in more. I mean, like, Marines and woke are not the two words you usually hear in one sentence, but in his worldview, they are. So, I think it’s unprecedented. I mean, I don’t think anyone’s ever done this. It’s not like one or two people. It’s like the entire U.S. military command can’t move ahead.

Rovner: I’ve been doing this a very long time, and I don’t remember anything quite like this. Well, the one thing that we do expect to happen this fall is legislation on — and Rachel, you were referring to this already — sort of health care price transparency and PBMs, the pharmacy benefit managers. Where are we with that? They were supposed to work on it over the August break. Did they?

Cohrs: They were supposed to work on it. The House was clearly working on it and reconciling some of their differences. They’re planning to introduce legislative text on Friday. So, I think Democrats aren’t on board yet, so things could change from the draft they had been circulating early this week. But again, Republicans don’t really need Democrats to move forward, at least in the House. The Senate has been pretty quiet so far. Not to say that no work has gone on, but they certainly weren’t ready for the rollout in the same way that the House was. You know, I think there are still some big questions about, you know, what they’re planning to accomplish with insulin policy, how they’re planning to fit together this jigsaw puzzle of PBM transparency and reforms that have come out of different committees. And I think it’ll come down to [Senate Majority Leader] Sen. Schumer making some tough choices. And from my understanding, that hasn’t quite happened yet. But if the actual showdown happens November, December, they still have some time.

Rovner: Yeah. Now they’re not going out early. They’re clearly going to be fighting over the appropriation. So, the legislative committees have plenty of time to work on these other things. All right. Well, let’s turn to Medicaid for a moment. The quote-unquote “unwinding” continues as states move to redetermine who remains eligible for the program and who doesn’t following the pandemic pause. As predicted, it’s been a bit of a bumpy road. And now it seems a bunch of states have been incorrectly dropping children from Medicaid coverage because their parents are no longer eligible. That’s a problem because nationwide, income limits for children’s eligibility is higher than parents’. In some states, it is much higher. I remember after Hurricane Katrina, in Louisiana, parents were only eligible if they earned 15% of poverty. Somebody said 50, and the Medicaid director said, “No, 15, one-five.” Whereas kids are eligible to, I believe it’s 200% of poverty. And I think that’s a national level.

Kenen: Now, in some states it’s higher.

Rovner: Yes. But I say this is happening in a bunch of states because federal government won’t tell us how many or which ones. We do know it’s more than a dozen, but this is the second time the administration has admonished states for wrongly canceling Medicaid coverage. And they wouldn’t say which states were involved at that time either. Is this an effort to keep this as apolitical as possible, given that the states most likely to be doing this are red states who are trying to remove ineligible people from Medicaid as fast as they can, that they’re trying to sort of keep this from becoming a Republican versus Democrat thing.

Ollstein: It seems like, from what we’re hearing, that the administration is really wary of publicly picking a fight with these states. They want the states to work with them. And so, even if the states are going about this in a way they think is totally wrong, they don’t want to just put them publicly on blast, because they think that’ll make them, again, double down and refuse to work with the government at all. And so, they’re trying to maintain some veneer of cooperation. But at the same time, you’re having, you know, millions of people, including children, falling through the cracks. And so, you know, we have sort of this sternly-worded-letter approach and we’ll see if that accomplishes anything, and if not, you know, what measures can be taken. You know, the administration also created a way for states to hit pause on the process and take a little more time and do a little more verification of people’s eligibility. And some — a couple states — have taken advantage of that, and it’s been successful in, you know, having fewer people dropped for paperwork reasons, but it’s not really happening in the states where it sort of most needs to happen, according to experts.

Rovner: The administration has had fingers pointed at it, too, because apparently it approved some of these plans from the states that were going to look at total family income without realizing that, oh, that meant that kids who are still eligible could end up losing coverage because their parents are no longer eligible.

Kenen: Right. And I also read something yesterday that in some cases it’s sort of a technical issue rather than a “how much outreach and what your intentions are,” that it’s a programing issue, which is related to what Julie just said about the plan. So, it’s not that these states set about to drop these kids, and there may be some kind of goodwill to fix it, in which case you don’t want to get in — and I don’t know that it’s 100% red states either. So —

Rovner: No, that’s clear. We assume, because they’re the ones going fastest, but we do not know.

Kenen: Right, so that there seems to be some kind of — the way it was set up, technically, that can be remedied. And if it’s a technical fix as opposed to an ideological fight, you don’t really want to — you want to figure out how to reprogram the computer or whatever it is they have to do and then go back and catch the people that were lost. So, they’ve been pretty low-key about politicizing rewinding in general. But on the kids, I think they’re going to be even more — CHIP passed, another thing with bipartisan support that’s a mess. I mean, it seems to be the theme of the day. But, you know, CHIP was created on a bipartisan basis, and it’s always been sustained on a bipartisan basis. So, I think that the issue, I don’t know how technically easy it is to fix, but there’s a big difference in how the administration goes after someone that’s intentionally doing something versus someone who wrote their computer programmer set something up wrong.

Rovner: Well, we will definitely keep on this one.

Kenen: But it’s a big mess. It’s a lot of kids.

Rovner: It is a big mess. And let’s turn to the thing that is not bipartisan in Congress, and that is —

Kenen: That’ll be a bigger mess.

Rovner: — Medicare drug negotiations. Yes. While we were away, the federal government released its much-anticipated list of the 10 brand-name drugs that will be the first tranche up for potential price negotiation. I say potential, because the companies have the option of negotiating or not — sort of — and because there are now, I think, nine lawsuits challenging the entire program. My interview with Medicare administrator Meena Seshamani will get into the nuts and bolts of how the negotiation program is supposed to work. But Rachel, tell us a little bit about the drugs on the list and how their makers are trying to cancel this entire enterprise before it even begins.

Cohrs: Sure. So, a lot of these drugs that we’re seeing on the list are blood thinners. Some are diabetes medications. There are drugs for heart failure, rheumatoid arthritis, Crohn’s disease, and there’s also a cancer treatment, too. But I think overall, the drugs were chosen because they have high cost to Medicare. And it was —

Rovner: So that either could mean a lot of people use an inexpensive drug —

Cohrs: Yes.

Rovner: — or a few people use a very expensive drug.

Cohrs: Correct. And it was Wall Street’s favorite parlor game to try to guess what drugs were going to be on this list of 10 drugs that are going to be the guinea pigs to go through this program for the very first time. But it was interesting, because there were a few surprises. Medicare officials were using newer data than Wall Street analysts had access to. So, there were a couple drugs, especially further down on the list, that people used more in the period CMS [Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services] was studying than had been used previously. So, we saw a couple very interesting instances of a drug being chosen for the list, even though it just kind of fell through the cracks. It was J&J’s [Johnson & Johnson’s] Stelara. It’s a Crohn’s disease treatment, and it does have competition coming in the market soon, but just because of a fluke of kind of when it was approved by the FDA, it just missed cutoffs for some of these exemptions and is now subject to some pretty significant discounts through the program.

Rovner: We’ll link to your very sad story about Stelara.

Cohrs: Sad for the company, but not sad for the patients who will hopefully be paying less for this medication. And there’s also the case of Astellas [Pharma Inc.], which makes a prostate cancer drug that’s very expensive. A lot of people expected that to be selected, but actually wasn’t. And Astellas had sued the Biden administration already before the list came out and then had to withdraw their lawsuit yesterday because their argument that they were going to be harmed by this legislation was made much weaker by the fact that they weren’t selected for this first year of the program. So, who knows? They could dust off their arguments a year from now or two years from now. But it was interesting to see kind of some of these surprises on the list. Again, there are still several, like you mentioned, outstanding lawsuits in several different jurisdictions. I think the main one that we’re watching is by the [U.S.] Chamber of Commerce, which requested a preliminary injunction by the end of this month. So, we’ll see if that comes through. But it is a very long road to 2026. There might be a new administration by then. So, I think there are still a lot of questions about whether this reaches the finish line. But I think it’s a very important step for CMS to get this list out there in the world.

Rovner: So, I spent some time digging in my notes from earlier years, and I dug up notes from an interview I did on Aug. 26 with a spokesperson from the drug industry about how the Medicare drug benefit, quote, “impact the ability of companies to research new medicines. And if that happens, the elderly would be the ones hurt the most.” That quote, by the way, was from Aug. 26 of 1987. Some things truly never change. But is this maybe, possibly, the beginning of the end of drugmakers being able to charge whatever they want in the United States? Because it’s the only country where they can.

Cohrs: Oh, they can still charge whatever they want. This law doesn’t change that. It just changes the fact that Medicare won’t be paying whatever drugmakers happen to charge for an unlimited amount of time. Like, they can still charge whatever they want to Medicare for as long as they can get on the market before they’re selected for this negotiation program. But certainly there could be significant cost — significant savings to Medicare, even if those prices are high. And it’s just kind of a measure that forces price reductions, even if the generic or biosimilar market isn’t functioning to lower those prices through competition.

Kenen: Right. And it’s only Medicare. So, people who are not on Medicare — insurance companies also negotiate prices, but they’re not the government. It’s different. But I mean, these drugs are not going to start being, you know, three bucks.

Rovner: But they may stop being 300,000.

Kenen: Well, we don’t know, because there are some people who think that if Medicare is paying less, they’re going to charge everybody else more. We just don’t know. We don’t know what their behavior is going to be. But no, this does not solve the question of affordability of medication in the United States.

Rovner: The drug companies certainly think it’s the camel’s nose under the tent.

Kenen: They have some medicine for camels’ noses that they can charge a lot of money for, I’m sure.

Rovner: I bet they do. While we are on the subject of things that I have covered since the 1980s, last week the Biden administration finally put out its regulation requiring that nursing homes be staffed 24/7/365 by, you know, an actual nurse. One of the first big reconciliation bills I covered was in 1987 — that was a big year for health policy — and it completely overhauled federal regulation of nursing homes, except for mandating staffing standards, because the nursing homes said they couldn’t afford it. Basically, that same fight has been going on ever since. Except now the industry also says there aren’t enough nurses to hire, even if they could afford it. Yet patient advocates say these admittedly low staffing ratios that the Biden administration has put out are still not enough. So, what happens now? Is this going to be like the prescription drug industry, where they’re going to try to sue their way out of it? Or is it going to be more like the hospital transparency, where they’re just not going to do it and say, “Come and get us”?

Kenen: My suspicion is litigation, but it’s too soon to know. I assume that either one of the nursing home chains — because there are some very big corporations that own a lot of nursing homes — there are several nursing home trade industry groups, for-profit, nonprofit. Does one owner — is in an area where there is a workforce shortage, because that does exist. I mean, I’d be surprised if we don’t see some litigation, because when don’t we see that? I mean, it’s rare. That’s the norm in health care, is somebody sues. Some of the workforce issues are real, but also this proposal doesn’t go into effect tomorrow. It’s not like — but I mean, there are issues of the nursing workforce. There are issues about not just the number of nurses, but do we have them in the right places doing the right jobs? It’s not just RNs [registered nurses]; there are also shortages of other direct care workers. I did a story a few months ago on this, and there are actually nursing homes that have closed entire wings because they don’t have enough staff, and those are some of the nonprofits. There are nursing issues.

Rovner: And a lot of nursing home staff got sick at the beginning of the covid pandemic, and many of them died before there were good treatments. I mean, it’s always been a very hard and not very well-paid job to care for people in nursing homes. And then it became a not very pleasant, not very well-paid, and very deadly job. So I don’t think that’s probably helping the recruitment of people to work in nursing.

Kenen: Right, but the issue — I think a lot of people, when you have your first family experience with a nursing home or, you know, or those of us reporters who hadn’t been familiar with them until we went and did some stories on them, I think people are surprised at how little nursing there actually is. It’s nurses’ aides; it’s, you know, what they used to call licensed practical nurses or nursing assistants; and CNAs, certified nursing assistants. They’re various; different states have different names. But these are not four-year RNs. The amount of actual nursing — forget doctors. I mean, there’s just not a lot of RNs in nursing homes. There’s not a lot of doctors who spend time in nursing homes. A lot of the care is done through people with less training. So, this is trying to get more nurses in nursing homes. And there’s been a lot of stories about inadequate care. KFF Health News — I think it was Jordan Rau who did them. There have been some good stories about particularly nights and weekends, just really nobody there. These are fragile people. And they wouldn’t be in a nursing home if they weren’t fragile people. There are a lot of horror stories. At the same time, there are some legitimate — How fast can you do this? And how well can you do it? And can you do it across the country? I mean, it’s going to take some working out, but I don’t think anybody thinks that nursing home care in this country is, you know, a paragon of what we want our elders to experience.

Rovner: And the nursing home industry points out, truthfully, that most nursing home payments now come from Medicaid, because even people who start out being able to afford it themselves often run out of money and then they end up — then they qualify for Medicaid. And Medicaid in many states doesn’t pay very much, doesn’t pay nursing homes very much. So it’s hard for these companies. We’re not even talking about the private equity companies. A lot of nursing homes operate on the financial edge. I mean, there are —our long-term care policy in this country is, you know, just: What happens, happens, and we’ll worry about it later. And this has been going on for 50 years. And now we have baby boomers retiring and getting older and needing nursing home care. And at some point, this is all going to come to a head. All right. Well, let us turn to abortion. This week marks the second anniversary of the Texas abortion ban, the so-called heartbeat bill, that bans most abortion and lets individuals sue other individuals for helping anyone getting an abortion, which the Supreme Court, if you’ll recall, allowed to take effect months before it formally overturned Roe v. Wade. And, I guess not surprisingly, Texas is still in the news about abortion. This time. The same people who brought us Texas SB 8, which is the heartbeat bill, are going town by town and trying to pass ordinances that make it illegal to use roads within that town’s borders to help anyone obtain an abortion. They’re calling it abortion “trafficking.” Now, it’s not only not clear to me whether a local ordinance can even impact a state or an interstate highway, which is what these laws are mostly aimed at; but how on earth would you enforce something like this, even if you want to?

Ollstein: So, my impression is that they do not want to. These are not meant to be practical. They are not meant to be enforced, because how would you do it other than implementing a very totalitarian checkpoint system? This is meant to —

Rovner: Yes, have you been drinking and are you on your way to get an abortion?

Ollstein: Right. Right, right, right. So, it seems like the main purpose is to have a chilling effect, which it very well could have, even if it doesn’t stand up in court. You know, you also have this situation that we’ve had play out in other ways, where people are challenging laws in courts for having a chilling effect, and courts are saying, look, you have to wait till you actually get prosecuted and challenge it, you know, do an as-applied challenge. If you can’t challenge unless there’s a prosecution but there’s no prosecutions, then you sort of just have it hanging over your head like a cloud.

Kenen: Like Alice said, there’s no way you could do this. Like, what do you do, stop every car and give every person a pregnancy test? Are you going to, like, have, you know, ultrasounds on the E-ZPass monitors? Like, you go through it, it checks your uterus. So, I mean, it’s just not — you can’t do this. But I think one of the things that was really interesting in one of the stories I read about it, I think it was in The Washington Post, was that when they interviewed people about it, they thought it was trafficking, like really trafficking, that there were pregnant woman being kidnapped and forced to have an abortion. So even if you’re pro-choice, you might say, “Oh, I’m against abortion trafficking. I mean, I don’t want anyone to be forced to have an abortion.” You know, so, it’s — the wording and the whole design of it is, they know what they’re doing. I mean, they want to create this confusion. They want to create a disincentive. There’s no way — you know, radar guns? I mean, it’s just, there’s no way of doing this. But it is part of the effort to clamp down even further on a state that has already really, really, really clamped down.

Rovner: Although, I mean, if one could sue and if one could then know about something that’s happening and then you could presumably take the person to court and say, I know you were pregnant and now you’re not, and somebody took you in a car to New Mexico or whatever …

Kenen: You can’t even prove — how do you prove that it wasn’t a miscarriage?

Rovner: That’s —

Kenen: Right? I mean …

Rovner: I’m not saying — I’m not talking about the burden of proof. I’m just saying in theory, somebody could try to have a case here. I mean, but we certainly know that Texas has done a very good job creating a chilling effect, because we still have this lawsuit from the women who were not seeking abortions, who had pregnancy complications and were unable to get health-saving and, in some cases, lifesaving care promptly. And that’s still being litigated. But meanwhile, we have, you know, just today a study out from the Guttmacher Institute that showed that despite how well these states that are banning abortion have done in banning abortion, there were presumably more abortions in the first half of 2023 than there were before these bans took effect, because women from ban states were going to states where it is not banned. And there has been, ironically, better access in those states where it is not banned. I can’t imagine that this is going to please the anti-abortion community. One would think it would make them double down, wouldn’t it?

Ollstein: We know that people are leaving their states to obtain an abortion. We also know that that’s not an option for a lot of people, and not just because a lot of people can’t afford it or they can’t take time off work, they can’t get child care — tons of reasons why somebody might not be able to travel out of state. They have a disability, they’re undocumented. We also have — it’s become easier and easier and easier to obtain abortion pills online through, you know, a variety of ways: individual doctors in more progressive states, big online pharmacies are engaged in this, overseas activist groups are engaged in this. And so, you know, that’s also become an option for a lot of people. And anti-abortion groups know that those are the two main methods. People are still continuing to have abortions. And so, they’re continuing to just throw out different ways to try to either, you know, deter people or actually block them from either of those paths.

Rovner: This fight will also continue on. So, that is this week’s news. Now we will play my interview with Meena Seshamani, and then we will come back and do our extra credits.

Hey, “What the Health?” listeners, you already know that few things in health care are ever simple. So, if you like our show, I recommend you also listen to “Tradeoffs,” a podcast that goes even deeper into our costly, complicated, and often counterintuitive health care system. Hosted by longtime health care journalist and friend Dan Gorenstein, “Tradeoffs” digs into the evidence and research data behind health care policies and tells the stories of real people impacted by decisions made in C-suites, doctors’ offices, and even Congress. Subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts.

I am pleased to welcome back to the podcast Dr. Meena Seshamani, deputy administrator and director of the Center for Medicare at the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services. Meena was with us to talk generally about Medicare’s new prescription drug negotiation program earlier this summer. But now that the first 10 drugs subject to negotiation have been announced, we’re pleased to have her back. Welcome.

Meena Seshamani: Thank you for having me.

Rovner: So, remind our listeners, why hasn’t Medicare been able to negotiate drug prices until now — they negotiate prices of everything else — and what changed to make that happen?

Seshamani: That’s right. It was because of the Medicare law that Medicare did not have the ability to negotiate drugs. And thanks to the new drug law, the Inflation Reduction Act, now Medicare has the ability to negotiate the prices of the highest-cost drugs that don’t have competition. And that is part of the announcement that we had on what the first 10 drugs are that have been selected.

Rovner: So, as you say, last week, for the first time and in time for the Sept. 1 deadline, Medicare announced the list of the first 10 drugs that will be part of the first round of price negotiations. Why these 10 specifically? I imagine it’s not a coincidence that the list includes some of the drugs whose ads we see the most often on TV: drugs like Eliquis, Xarelto, and Jardiance, which I of course know how to pronounce because I see the ads all the time.

Seshamani: Well, the process of selection really was laid out in the drug law and also through the guidance that we put out that we had incorporated everybody’s comment for. So, what we did is we started with the, you know, over 7,500 drugs that are covered in the Part D Medicare prescription drug program. From there, we picked those drugs that had been on the market for seven years for a drug product or 11 years for a larger molecule or biologic product that did not have competition. And then from there, there are various exemptions and exclusions that, again, are laid out in the law: for example, drugs that have low Medicare spend, of less than $200 million; drugs that are plasma-derived products; certain orphan drugs. An orphan drug is a drug that is indicated for a rarer disease. So that, again, those specific criteria are laid out in the law and in our guidance. And then there were opportunities for manufacturers to apply, for example, for a small biotech exemption; if their drug was, you know, 80% of their, you know, Medicare Part D revenue, they could say, “Hey, I’m a small biotech.” Again, a lot of these criteria were laid out in the law. Or for a manufacturer of a biosimilar, which is kind of like a generic drug for one of these biologic drugs, they could say, “Hey, we have a biosimilar that’s going to be coming on the market, has a high likelihood of coming on the market, so you should delay negotiating” the brand, if you will, drug. So, again, all of these steps were laid out in the drug law, and those are the steps and criteria that we followed that came to that list of 10 drugs that we published.

Rovner: I did see the makers of one drug — and forgive me, I can’t remember which one it was — saying, “But our drug isn’t that expensive.” On the other hand, their drug is used by a lot of people on Medicare. So, it’s not just the list price of the drug, right? It’s how much it costs Medicare overall.

Seshamani: That’s right. The list is made up of those drugs that have the highest gross total cost to the program — so, price per unit times units of volume that is used.

Rovner: So, how does this negotiation process work? What happens now? Now we have this list of 10 drugs.

Seshamani: Yeah, a lot of this is also laid out in the law, and then we fleshed out further in our guidance. So, from the list of 10 drugs, on Oct. 1, manufacturers now have to decide if they want to participate in the negotiation program. It is a voluntary program. It is our hope that they will come to the table and want to negotiate, because I think we all have shared goals of improving access and affordability and really driving innovation for the cures and therapies that people need. So, Oct. 1, they sign agreements for the negotiation program if they decide to participate. And Oct. 2 is the deadline for gathering data. We put out what’s called an information collection request to say, this is the kind of data we’re thinking about collecting. We got lots of comments and incorporated that. So, that provides the framework for the data that we’re requesting both from the manufacturer of the selected drug, but also, there are aspects open to the public on, you know, how the drug benefits populations, for example. So that’s Oct. 2. Then we’re going to have patient-focused listening sessions, a session for each drug, for patients, their caregivers, you know, other advocates, to be able to share what they see as the benefits of the drugs that are selected. And, we will have meetings with each of the manufacturers. All of that information will come together in an initial offer that CMS will make Feb. 1, 2024, and that is a date that is stipulated in the law. The manufacturer then has about 30 days to evaluate that. If they like that offer, they can agree. If they want, they can make a counteroffer. From that counteroffer, CMS has the ability to agree or to say, “You know, we don’t agree, so let’s now have a series of negotiation meetings.” There can be up to three negotiation meetings that provides that back-and-forth, ultimately leading to an agreed-upon what’s called maximum fair price in the law. And those maximum fair prices are published by Sept. 1, 2024. Again, that Sept. 1 is stipulated in the law. And also as part of this process, CMS will publish a narrative about that negotiation process — you know, the data that was received, you know, the back-and-forth, and also we’ll publish ultimately the maximum fair prices that are agreed to.

Rovner: And does that maximum fair price just apply to Medicare?

Seshamani: The maximum fair price just applies to Medicare. The information will be available. I mean, we don’t have any authority. You know, the commercial sector, they do their own negotiations, and they will continue to do so. But part of this is an opportunity to really further the conversation about how drugs impact the lives of people. We have an opportunity now with some drugs that have been on the market for quite a while, right? Minimum of seven years or 11 years, to see how these drugs work in the real world, in people’s communities, so that we can incorporate that into what it is that we need and want for people to be healthy, to stay out of the hospital, to live meaningful lives. So it’s really an opportunity to further that conversation. And a lot of that data, a lot of those listening sessions, that will all go into our negotiation process and will be part of the narrative that we publish.

Rovner: And what happens if the drug company says either we don’t want to negotiate or we don’t like our final offer? If they say they don’t want to play, what happens?

Seshamani: Julie, I will say again, to start with, we are hopeful that the drug companies will come forward and will want to negotiate because, again, through many conversations that we have had, we do have shared goals of access and affordability and really driving innovation and procures and therapies that people need. And it is a choice for drug companies if they want to participate or not, as stipulated in the law. If a drug company decides not to sign, you know, the negotiation agreement, not to participate in negotiation, then we would refer them to the Department of Treasury for an excise tax. That excise tax is also described in the law. If a drug company has this excise tax applied, they can get out of paying the excise tax. If, No. 1, they decide to come to the table and negotiate, or No. 2, if they exit the Medicare and Medicaid market. So those are kind of their off-ramps, if you will, for that excise tax.

Rovner: So they don’t have to participate in the negotiation, but they also don’t have to participate in Medicare and Medicaid.

Seshamani: Correct.

Rovner: So I saw a lot of complaining last week with the first group of drugs that this is really only going to benefit the people on Medicare who take those drugs. But, in fact, if there really is a lot of money saved, the benefits could go well beyond this, right?

Seshamani: Yeah, I think two points. So, yes, this negotiation is for, you know, some of the highest-cost drugs to the Medicare program that don’t have competition. And the negotiated drug prices apply to the Medicare program. However, as we talked about, this really drives a conversation around drugs and really grounding this negotiation process in the clinical benefit that a drug provides. Considering things like if a drug is easier for someone to take and it’s easier for a caregiver, that can have tangible improvements to the health of the person they’re caring for, right? And I think we have that opportunity to really drive the conversation. And as we know in many aspects of health care, people look to Medicare to see what Medicare is doing. And also, the transparency around providing that narrative of the negotiation, publishing the maximum fair prices that are agreed to. That’s all data that anybody can use as they would like. And I think the second piece that’s important to remember is that negotiation is one very important piece of a very big change to Medicare prescription drug coverage. You know, alongside the $2,000 out-of-pocket tab that’s going to go into effect in 2025, the no-cost vaccines, $35 copay cap for insulin that have already gone into effect. So, really, it is part of a larger sea change in Medicare drug coverage that will help millions of people and their families. You know, I did a roundtable with seniors as we were rolling out the insulin copay cap. And one woman was telling me that she was providing money to her brother every month so that he could pay for his insulin on Medicare. So, really, I mean, this has tremendous impact not just for people on Medicare, but their families, their communities, and really furthers the conversation for the entire system.

Rovner: I was actually thinking of more nitty-gritty money, which is if you save money for Medicare, premiums will be lower for people who are getting drug coverage, and taxpayers will save money, too, right? I mean, this is not just for these people and their families.

Seshamani: Our priority is being able to reach agreement on a fair price for the people who rely on these medications for their lives and the American taxpayer in the Medicare program.

Rovner: I know you can’t comment on lawsuits, and there are many lawsuits already challenging this. But the drug companies, one of their major arguments is that if you limit what they can charge for their drugs, particularly in the United States, the last country where they can charge whatever they want for their drugs, they will not be able to afford to keep the pipeline going to discover more new, important drugs. This is an argument they’ve been making since, I told somebody earlier, since I covered this in the late 1980s. What is your response just to that argument?

Seshamani: Well, I think there were several articles, many articles were written about this on the day that the 10 selected drugs were published. They were published before the stock market opened. And there really was no impact on the stocks of the companies. There were many financial pieces written about this. So I think that is one indication of the fact that the pharmaceutical industry is strong, it is thriving, and it is designed to innovate. And what we’re hoping to do through this negotiation program is really reward the kinds of innovations that we all need, the cures and therapies that people need. Recently, the venture fund that backed Moderna invested in a new startup for small molecules. Bayer has recently invested a billion dollars in the U.S. So you see, the industry very much is thriving. That is what the stock market response also shows. And it’s also the way that we are approaching negotiation to make sure that we’re rewarding the kinds of innovations that people need.

Rovner: Well, Meena Seshamani, thank you so much. I hope we can come back to you as this negotiation process for the first time proceeds.

Seshamani: Absolutely. Thanks again, Julie.

Rovner: OK. We are back, and it’s time for our extra-credit segment. That’s when we each recommend a story we read this week we think you should read too. As always, don’t worry if you miss it. We will post the links on the podcast page at kffhealthnews.org and in our show notes on your phone or other mobile device. Alice, why don’t you go first this week?

Ollstein: Yeah, I picked a very sad story from The Washington Post about how people who have schizophrenia are a lot more vulnerable to extreme heat. And it’s rare to find one of these health care stories where you’re just astonished. You know, I had no idea about this. You know, it really walks through not only are people more vulnerable for mental health reasons, you know, it profiles this terrible story of a guy in Phoenix who wandered off into the desert and died because he was experiencing paranoid delusions. But also, just physically, people with schizophrenia have difficulty regulating their body temperature. A lot of medications people take make people more dehydrated, less able to cope. And just an astonishingly high percentage of people hospitalized and killed by extreme heat have these mental illnesses. Of course, they’re also more likely to have housing instability or be out on the street. So just a fascinating piece, and I hope it spurs cities to think of ways to address it. One other small thing I want to compliment is it just, technically, on this article online, they have a little widget where you can convert all of the temperatures cited in the lengthy story from Fahrenheit to Celsius. And I just really appreciated that for allowing, you know, no matter where you live, you sort of get what these high temperatures mean.

Rovner: Yeah, graphics can be really helpful sometimes. Rachel.

Cohrs: Yeah. So I chose a story in The Wall Street Journal and the headline is “How Novartis’s CEO Learned From His Mistakes and Got Help From an Unlikely Quarter,” by Jared S. Hopkins. And I think it was a really interesting and rare look inside one of these pharmaceutical companies. And Novartis hired a Wall Street analyst, Ronny Gal, to help advise them. And I think I had read his analysis before he crossed over to Novartis. So I think it was interesting to just hear how that has integrated into Novartis’ strategy and just how they’re changing their business. But I think as we’re, you know, having these conversations about drug pricing and how strategies are changing due to some of these policies, it is helpful to look at who these executives are listening to and what they’re prioritizing, whose voices in this decision-making process that really has impacts for so many people who are waiting for treatments. And I think there are tough choices that are made all the time. So I just thought it was very illuminating and helpful as we’re talking about how medicines get made in D.C.

Rovner: Yeah, maybe there will be a little more transparency to actually how the drug industry works. We will see. Joanne.

Kenen: With Julie’s permission, I have two that are both short and related. I wrote a piece for Politico Nightly called “How to Wage War on Conspiracy Theories,” and I liked it because it really linked political trends and disinformation and attempts to debunk, with very parallel things going on in the world of health care and efforts to the motivations and efforts to sow trust and what we do and do not know about how to debunk, which we’re not very good at yet. And then the classic example, of course, is the related AP story, which has a very long headline, so bear with me. It’s by Kevin McGill: “Court Revives Doctors’ Lawsuit Saying FDA Overstepped Its Authority With Anti-Ivermectin Campaign.” And, basically, it’s that the 5th Circuit, a conservative court that we’ve talked about before, is saying that the FDA is allowed to inform doctors, but it can’t advise doctors. And I’m not really sure what the difference is there, because if the FDA is informing doctors that ivermectin, we now know, does not work against covid, and it can in fact harm people, there’s ample data, that the FDA is not allowed to tell doctors not to use it. So the ivermectin campaign is a form of disinformation, or misinformation, whatever you want to call it, that at the very beginning, people had, you know, there were some test-tube experiments. We had nothing else. You can sort of see why people wanted … might have wanted to try it. But we have lots and lots and lots of good solid clinical research and human beings and, no, it does not cure covid. It does not improve covid. And it can be damaging. It’s for parasites, not viruses.

Rovner: It can cure worms. Well, I’m going to channel my inner Margot Sanger-Katz this week and choose a story from a medical journal, in this case the Journal of the American Medical Association. Its lead author is Sherry Glied, who’s dean of the NYU Robert F. Wagner Graduate School of Public Service and former assistant HHS [Department of Health and Human Services] secretary for planning and evaluation during the Obama administration — and I daresay one of the most respected health policy analysts anywhere. The piece is called “Health Systems and Social Services — A Bridge Too Far?” And it’s the first article I’ve seen that really does question whether what’s become dogma in health policy over the past decade that — tending to what are called social determinants of health, things like housing, education, and nutrition — can improve health as much as medical care can. Rather, argues Glied, quote, “There are fundamental mismatches between the priorities and capabilities of hospitals and health systems and the task of addressing social determinants of health,” and that, basically, medical providers should leave social services to those who are professional social service providers. That is obviously a gross oversimplification of the argument of the piece, however, but I found it really thought-provoking and really, for the first time, someone saying, maybe we shouldn’t be spending all of this health care money on social determinants of health. Maybe we should let social service money go to the social service determinants of health. Anyway, we will see if this is the start of a trend or just sort of one outlier voice. OK, that is our show for this week. As always, if you enjoy the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left us a review; that helps other people find us, too. Special thanks, as always, to our amazing engineer, Francis Ying. Also, as always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org. Or you can tweet me, or X me, or whatever. I’m still there @jrovner, also on Bluesky and Threads. Rachel?

Cohrs: I’m @rachelcohrs on X.

Rovner: Alice.

Ollstein: @AliceOllstein.

Rovner: Joanne.

Kenen: @JoanneKenen on Twitter, @joannekenen1 on Threads.

Rovner: We will be back in your feed next week. Until then, be healthy.

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El cansancio y las náuseas de su marido fueron tan intensas que no fue a trabajar por tres días. Pero bebió agua con lima en lugar de ir al médico porque no tienen seguro médico. “A mucha gente le pasa esto”, agregó.

No existen normas federales para proteger a los trabajadores como los García cuando los días son excesivamente calurosos. Y sin el apoyo bipartidista del Congreso, incluso con la atención urgente de la administración Biden, es posible que el alivio no llegue en años.

El presidente Joe Biden encargó en 2021 a la Administración de Seguridad y Salud Ocupacional (OSHA) la elaboración de normas para prevenir los accidentes y las enfermedades causados por el calor.

Pero ese proceso de 46 pasos puede llevar más de una década y podría estancarse si un republicano es elegido presidente en 2024, porque el Partido Republicano se ha opuesto generalmente a las regulaciones de salud laboral en los últimos 20 años.

Estas normas podrían obligar a los empleadores a proporcionar abundante agua potable, descansos y un espacio para refrescarse a la sombra o con aire acondicionado cuando las temperaturas superen un determinado umbral.

El 7 de septiembre, OSHA comenzó reuniones con propietarios de pequeñas empresas para discutir sus propuestas, incluidas las medidas que deberían adoptar las empresas cuando las temperaturas llegan a los 90 grados.

Como este verano se han batido récords de calor, la congresista Judy Chu (demócrata de California) y otros miembros del Congreso han impulsado una legislación que aceleraría el proceso de elaboración de normas de OSHA.

El proyecto de ley lleva el nombre de Asunción Valdivia, una trabajadora agrícola que se desmayó mientras recogía uvas en California en un día de 105 grados en 2004. Su hijo la recogió del campo y Valdivia murió de un golpe de calor en el trayecto a su casa.

“Ya sea en una granja, conduciendo un camión o trabajando en un almacén, los trabajadores como Asunción mantienen nuestro país en funcionamiento mientras soportan algunas de las condiciones más difíciles”, dijo Chu en declaraciones en julio en la que instaba al Congreso a aprobar el proyecto de ley.

Las organizaciones profesionales que representan a los empresarios se han opuesto a las normas, calificándolas de “exageradas”. También afirman que faltan datos que justifiquen regulaciones generales, dada la diversidad de trabajadores y lugares de trabajo, desde restaurantes de comida rápida hasta granjas.

La Cámara de Comercio de Estados Unidos, uno de los grupos de presión más poderosos de Washington, argumentó que tales medidas carecen de sentido “porque cada empleado experimenta el calor de forma diferente”. Además, según la Cámara, normas como los ciclos de trabajo-descanso “amenazan con perjudicar directa y sustancialmente… la productividad de los empleados y, por lo tanto, la viabilidad económica de su empleador”.

“Muchos de los problemas relacionados con el calor no son consecuencia del trabajo agrícola ni de la mala gestión del empresario, sino del moderno estilo de vida de los empleados”, escribió el Consejo Nacional del Algodón en su respuesta a la legislación propuesta.

Por ejemplo, el aire acondicionado hace más difícil que las personas se adapten a un ambiente caluroso después de haber estado en una vivienda o un vehículo fríos, y señaló que “los trabajadores más jóvenes, más acostumbrados a un estilo de vida más sedentario, no pueden aguantar un día trabajando al aire libre”.

La Asociación de Recursos Forestales, que representa a los propietarios de terrenos forestales, la industria maderera y los aserraderos, agregó que “las enfermedades y muertes relacionadas con el calor no figuran entre los riesgos laborales más graves a los que se enfrentan los trabajadores”. Citaron cifras de OSHA: la agencia documentó 789 hospitalizaciones y 54 muertes relacionadas con el calor a través de investigaciones e infracciones de 2018 a 2021.

OSHA admite que sus datos son cuestionables. Ha dicho que sus cifras “sobre enfermedades, accidentes y muertes relacionadas con el calor en el trabajo son probablemente grandes subestimaciones”.

Los accidentes y enfermedades no siempre se registran, las muertes provocadas por las altas temperaturas no siempre se atribuyen al calor, y los daños relacionados con el calor pueden ser acumulativos, provocando infartos, insuficiencia renal y otras dolencias después de que la persona haya abandonado su lugar de trabajo.

El efecto de la temperatura

Para establecer normas, OSHA debe conocer los efectos del calor en los que trabajan en interiores y al aire libre. La justificación es una parte necesaria del proceso, porque las normativas aumentarán los costos para los empresarios que necesiten instalar sistemas de aire acondicionado y ventilación en el interior, y para aquellos cuya productividad pueda bajar si se permite a los que trabajan a la intemperie tomar descansos o reducir las jornadas cuando suban las temperaturas.

Lo ideal sería que los empresarios tomaran medidas para proteger a los trabajadores del calor independientemente de las normas, afirmó Georges Benjamin, director ejecutivo de la Asociación Americana de Salud Pública. “Tenemos que hacer un mejor trabajo para convencer a los empresarios de que hay una compensación entre la eficiencia y los trabajadores enfermos”, dijo.

García y su marido sufrieron los síntomas del golpe de calor: vómitos, náuseas y fatiga. Pero sus casos forman parte de los miles que no se contabilizan cuando la gente no va al hospital ni presenta denuncias por miedo a perder su empleo o estatus migratorio.

Los trabajadores agrícolas están notoriamente subrepresentados en las estadísticas oficiales sobre accidentes y enfermedades laborales, según David Michaels, epidemiólogo de la Universidad George Washington y ex administrador de OSHA.

Investigadores que encuestaron a trabajadores agrícolas de Carolina del Norte y Georgia encontraron que más de un tercio presentaba síntomas de enfermedad por calor durante los veranos analizados, una cifra muy superior a la registrada por OSHA. En particular, el estudio de Georgia reveló que el 34% de los trabajadores agrícolas no tenía descansos regulares, y una cuarta parte no tenía acceso a espacios con sombra.

Incluso los casos en los que los trabajadores son hospitalizados pueden no atribuirse al calor si los médicos no documentan la conexión. Muchos estudios relacionan los accidentes laborales con el estrés térmico, que puede causar fatiga, deshidratación y vértigo.

En un estudio realizado en el estado de Washington, se observó que los trabajadores agrícolas se caían de las escaleras con más frecuencia en junio y julio, unos de los meses más calurosos y húmedos. Y en un informe de 2021, investigadores calcularon que las temperaturas más cálidas causaron aproximadamente 20,000 accidentes laborales al año en California entre 2001 y 2018, según los reclamos de compensación de los trabajadores.

Las lesiones renales por calor también aparecen en la base de datos de OSHA de trabajadores lesionados gravemente en el trabajo, como el caso de un empleado de una planta de procesamiento de carne hospitalizado por deshidratación y lesión renal aguda en un caluroso día de junio en Arkansas.

Sin embargo, la investigación revela que el daño renal provocado por el calor también puede ser gradual. Un estudio de trabajadores de la construcción que estuvieron durante un verano en Arabia Saudita reveló que el 18% presentaba signos de lesión renal, lo que los ponía en riesgo de insuficiencia renal futura.

Además de cuantificar las lesiones y muertes causadas por el calor, OSHA trata de atribuirles un costo para poder calcular el ahorro potencial derivado de la prevención. “Hay que medir las cosas, como ¿cuánto vale una vida?”, afirmó Michaels.

Para los trabajadores y sus familias, el sufrimiento tiene consecuencias de largo alcance que son difíciles de enumerar. Los gastos médicos son más obvios. Por ejemplo, OSHA calcula que el costo directo de la postración por calor (sobrecalentamiento debido a insolación o hipertermia), es de casi $80,000 en costos directos e indirectos por caso.

Si esto parece elevado, hay que pensar en un trabajador de la construcción de Nueva York que perdió el conocimiento en un día caluroso y se cayó de una plataforma, y sufrió una laceración renal, fracturas faciales y varias costillas rotas.

El precio de los golpes de calor

Investigadores también han intentado determinar el costo que supone para los empresarios la pérdida de productividad. El trabajo es menos eficiente cuando suben las temperaturas, y si los trabajadores se ausentan por enfermedad y tienen que ser reemplazados, la producción disminuye mientras se entrena a nuevos trabajadores.

Cullen Page, cocinero de Austin, Texas, y miembro del sindicato Restaurant Workers United, trabaja durante horas frente a un horno de pizza, donde, según dijo, las temperaturas oscilaron entre los 90 y los 100 grados cuando las olas de calor golpeaban la ciudad en agosto.

“Es brutal. Afecta tu forma de pensar. Estás confundido”, dijo. “Me dio un sarpullido por calor que no se me quitaba”. Como hace tanto calor, agregó, el restaurante tiene un alto índice de rotación de empleados. Una campana extractora adecuada sobre los hornos y un mejor aire acondicionado ayudarían, pero los propietarios aún no han hecho las mejoras, dijo.

Via 313, la cadena de pizzerías en la que trabaja Page, no respondió al pedido de comentario.

Page no es el único. Una organización que representa a los empleados de restaurantes, Restaurant Opportunities Centers United, encuestó a miles de trabajadores, muchos de los cuales informaron de condiciones inseguras por el calor: el 24% de los trabajadores de Houston, por ejemplo, y el 37% de los de Philadelphia.

“Los trabajadores estuvieron expuestos a temperaturas de hasta 100 grados después de que se rompieron los aparatos de aire acondicionado y los ventiladores de las cocinas, lo que les dificultaba respirar”, escribió el Sindicato Internacional de Empleados de Servicios, que incluye a trabajadores del sector de comida rápida, en una nota a OSHA. “No hay razón para retrasar más la creación de una norma cuando conocemos la magnitud del problema y sabemos cómo proteger a los trabajadores”, dijeron.

Investigadores del Atlantic Council calculan que Estados Unidos perderá una media de $100,000 millones anuales por la baja de la productividad laboral inducida por el calor a medida que el clima se vuelve más cálido. “A los empresarios les cuesta mucho dinero no proteger a sus trabajadores”, afirmó Juley Fulcher, defensora de salud y  seguridad de los trabajadores de Public Citizen, organización de Washington D.C. que aboga por que el proyecto de ley Asunción Valdivia permita a OSHA promulgar normas el año que viene.

Como modelo, Fulcher sugirió fijarse en California, Maryland, Nevada, Oregon y Washington, los únicos estados con normas que obligan a que todos los trabajadores al aire libre tengan acceso a agua, descanso y sombra.

Aunque las normas no siempre se hacen cumplir, parece que surten efecto. Después de que California instaurara la suya en 2005, se registraron menos accidentes en los reclamos de indemnización de los trabajadores cuando las temperaturas superaban los 85 grados.

Michaels afirmó que OSHA ha demostrado que puede actuar con más rapidez de lo habitual cuando el Congreso se lo permite.

En los primeros días de la epidemia de VIH/SIDA, la agencia aprobó rápidamente normas para evitar que médicos, enfermeras y dentistas se infectaran accidentalmente con agujas. Ahora existe una urgencia similar, dijo. “Dada la crisis climática y la prolongación de los períodos de calor extremo”, señaló, “es imperativo que el Congreso apruebe una legislación que permita a OSHA promulgar rápidamente una norma que salve vidas”.

KFF Health News is a national newsroom that produces in-depth journalism about health issues and is one of the core operating programs at KFF—an independent source of health policy research, polling, and journalism. Learn more about KFF.

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Every person who agreed to get the smallpox vaccination was a potential outbreak averted, so the team was determined to vaccinate as many people as possible. 

The duo leaned on each other, sometimes literally, as they traversed the country’s rugged and watery geography. Khan, whom Miner sometimes referred to as “little brother,” used his local knowledge to help the team navigate both the cultural and physical landscape. When crossing rickety bamboo bridges, he would hold Miner’s hand and help him across. “We didn’t let him fall,” chuckled Khan. 

Episode 4 of “Eradicating Smallpox” explores what it took to bring care directly to people where they were. 

To conclude the episode, host Céline Gounder speaks with public health advocate Joe Osmundson about his work to help coordinate a culturally appropriate response to mpox in New York City during the summer of 2022. “The model that we’re trying to build is a mobile unit that delivers all sorts of sexual and primary health care opportunities. They’re opportunities!” exclaimed Osmundson.

The Host:

Céline Gounder
Senior fellow & editor-at-large for public health, KFF Health News

@celinegounder

Read Céline's stories

Céline is senior fellow and editor-at-large for public health with KFF Health News. She is an infectious diseases physician and epidemiologist. She was an assistant commissioner of health in New York City. Between 1998 and 2012, she studied tuberculosis and HIV in South Africa, Lesotho, Malawi, Ethiopia, and Brazil. Gounder also served on the Biden-Harris Transition COVID-19 Advisory Board. 

In Conversation with Céline Gounder:

Joe Osmundson 
Public health advocate and clinical assistant professor of biology at New York University

@reluctantlyjoe

Voices from the Episode:

Tim Miner
Former World Health Organization smallpox eradication program worker in Bangladesh

Shahidul Haq Khan
Former World Health Organization smallpox eradication program worker in Bangladesh

Click to open the transcript

Transcript: Speedboat Epidemiology

Podcast Transcript 

Epidemic: “Eradicating Smallpox” 

Season 2, Episode 4: Speedboat Epidemiology 

Air date: Aug. 29, 2023 

Editor’s note: If you are able, we encourage you to listen to the audio of “Epidemic,” which includes emotion and emphasis not found in the transcript. This transcript, generated using transcription software, has been edited for style and clarity. Please use the transcript as a tool but check the corresponding audio before quoting the podcast. 

TRANSCRIPT 

Céline Gounder: In the early 1970s, smallpox was still stalking parts of South Asia. India had launched its eradication program more than a decade before, but public health workers couldn’t keep up with the virus. 

Enter … the bifurcated needle. 

[Metallic ding sound] 

[Light instrumental music begins playing] 

Tim Miner: It was a marvelous invention in its simplicity. It looks like a little cocktail fork. 

Céline Gounder: You dip the prongs into a bit of vaccine … 

Tim Miner: And you would just prick the skin about 12 or 15 times until there was a little trace of blood and then you’d take another one. 

Céline Gounder: It barely took 30 seconds to vaccinate someone. 

And it didn’t hurt. 

Yogesh Parashar: No. 

Céline Gounder: Well … it didn’t hurt too much. 

Yogesh Parashar: It was just like a pinprick, rapidly done on your forearm. You had a huge supply with you and you just went about and — dot, dot, dot — vaccinated people, carry hundreds with you at one go. 

Tim Miner: And you could train somebody in a matter of minutes to do it. 

Céline Gounder: Easy to use. Easy to clean. And a big improvement over the twisting teeth of the vaccine instrument health workers had to use before. 

The bifurcated needle was maybe 2 and a half, 3 inches long. 

Small, but sturdy enough for rough-and-tumble fieldwork. 

Yogesh Parashar: It was made of steel. And it used to come in something that looked like a brick. It was just like one of those gold bricks that you see in the movies. 

Céline Gounder: And maybe worth its weight in gold. 

[Light instrumental music fades to silence] 

Céline Gounder: That “cocktail fork” was among the pioneering innovations that helped public health workers wipe out a centuries-old virus. 

Tim Miner: You had the bifurcated needle, you had the sterile water, and you had the freeze-dried vaccine, and you could mix them up and off you’d go. 

Céline Gounder: Ah, but getting there wasn’t always that easy. 

I’m Dr. Céline Gounder, and this is “Epidemic.” 

[Epidemic theme music plays] 

Céline Gounder: On this episode, we’re exploring what it took to deliver the smallpox vaccine to the people — and all the remaining places — that needed it most. 

In South Asia, Bangladesh was a major battleground in the campaign to stop smallpox. 

We spoke with a man who helped lead an eradication team there. 

Shahidul Haq Khan: My name is MD Shahidul Haq Khan. 

Céline Gounder: For our interview, Shahidul Haq Khan invited me to his home in Barishal. That’s in south-central Bangladesh. We sat at a table in the courtyard, and his granddaughter, Kashfia, who looked like she was around 10 years old, stood close by … 

Céline Gounder: Kashfia. So nice to meet you, Kashfia. I’m Céline. 

Kashfia: Hello. 

Céline Gounder: Hello. [Céline chuckles.] Are you going to listen to us? 

Céline Gounder: Kashfia wanted to hear her granddad’s stories, and I got the impression that was also important to Shahidul. 

As the two of us did our best to communicate through a translator — with neighbors, chickens, and street noise all around — Shahidul wanted me to understand why he was speaking with me and the significance of the smallpox campaign. 

Shahidul Haq Khan: [Shahidul speaking in Bengali] 

English translation: The purpose of saying these things is that we needed all this effort. We put a lot of hard work and effort behind smallpox eradication. 

Céline Gounder: Very hard work. You must be very proud of what you helped accomplish. 

Shahidul Haq Khan: [Shahidul speaking in Bengali] 

English translation: Yes, of course. Of course, I can say that we’re proud to say that we’ve eliminated smallpox from this country. 

Céline Gounder: The job was to hunt down smallpox — and stop it — in a country packed with people, crisscrossed by rivers, edged with mangrove forests, and dotted with remote lowland river islands. 

[Rain sounds fade in] 

Céline Gounder: And there were the monsoons. It rained A LOT. 

[Bouncy, upbeat music begins playing softly in the background] 

[Rain sounds fades out] 

Tim Miner: Uh, well, we got wet. [Tim chuckles.] To state the obvious. 

Céline Gounder: That’s Tim Miner. He was an officer with the World Health Organization in Bangladesh. 

Tim Miner: My legal name is Howard Miner, but I was the third Howard, so I got nicknamed Tim. 

Céline Gounder: Shahidul and Tim worked together for several months in 1974. 

The public health strategy was called “search and containment,” and a big part of that meant figuring out how to get the vaccine from one community to the next. 

Tim Miner: And occasionally you have to park your motorcycle, take your shoes and socks off, and walk across a leech-infested paddy field to get to the next case. 

Céline Gounder: The work depended on local knowledge, and Shahidul was the local knowledge. 

He was the lead Bangladeshi member on the eradication team, and when they arrived at a village that had a suspected case of smallpox, often Shahidul went in first, with Tim a few steps behind …  

Tim Miner: Someone would bring out some chairs. And sometimes we would have tea and biscuits. Or, if they didn’t have tea and biscuits, then somebody would climb up and get a coconut and chop off the top and watch me drink it and dribble the coconut milk all over myself, and everybody had a good time.  

Shahidul Haq Khan: [Shahidul speaking in Bengali] 

English translation: Dr. Miner called me “little brother.” I was younger then. How old was I? 21 or 22 years old. 

Tim Miner: He referred to me as “Dr. Miner,” even though I’m not a … a physician. That’s how he referred to me. 

Céline Gounder: Shahidul had been working in public health before he joined the smallpox effort. He offered guidance on culture — and occasionally gave Tim a hand on rickety bamboo bridges. 

Shahidul Haq Khan: [Shahidul speaking in Bengali] 

English translation: Most of the time, I escorted him across the bamboo bridge. I took his bag and held his hand and helped him across. 

Tim Miner: You learn to walk and not look down and just, uh, you know, hang onto the poles. And, fortunately, I never fell in. 

Shahidul Haq Khan: [Shahidul speaking in Bengali] 

English translation: We didn’t let him fall. 

[Bouncy, upbeat music fades out] 

Céline Gounder: The team was based on a hospital ship, called the Niramoy. It had all the basics: a couple of cabins, a space to perform surgery, plus a few comforts, like a generator they’d turn on in the morning for showers, a cook who picked up fresh fish at the market every day. 

Tim Miner: I would have a doodh cha, a tea with milk, and a kacha morich pyaz — scrambled eggs with, uh, chiles. 

Céline Gounder: The hospital ship hauled supplies from port to port. And everywhere they went, they towed a speedboat along with them. 

Tim Miner: We would receive reports of cases and we would get down from the ship in our speedboat, and the speedboat driver would take us as far as the boat could go. And we would walk, do the investigation, and find out who the contacts were and vaccinate the village and surrounding areas. 

Céline Gounder: Tim calls it “speedboat epidemiology.” The work required a willingness to go wherever and everywhere the virus took up residence. By and large, people welcomed them and were glad to get the vaccine. 

Tim Miner: They know about smallpox. They’ve been dealing with it, you know, all of their lives. And they have lost family members to the disease. 

Céline Gounder: Still, the task was huge: to find and vaccinate every person with smallpox — and all the people that person had come in contact with. 

[Subtle music begins playing] 

Céline Gounder: In modern-day public health, the work gets done with cellphones and spreadsheets, maybe social media. In Bangladesh in 1974, they had none of that. 

Shahidul and Tim had the speedboat, motorbikes, and their feet to cover a territory that took them all the way down to the coast. 

Tim Miner: First there’s Barishal … 

Shahidul Haq Khan: Latachapli … 

Tim Miner: … then there’s Faridpur … 

Shahidul Haq Khan: … Dankupara … 

Tim Miner: … then there’s Patuakhali. 

Shahidul Haq Khan: … and Kuakata. 

Céline Gounder: People were constantly on the move — maybe for seasonal work or better opportunities. That made contact tracing tricky. During one investigation, Tim identified a man who’d been exposed to the virus, but he’d left the region for Dhaka. 

The capital was densely populated — a city of 2 million in 1974. And smallpox was highly contagious. So Tim called a colleague — on the shortwave radio — to see if he could track down the man in Dhaka. 

[Ambient Dhaka street noises play in the background] 

Tim Miner: Well, it’s not just a street address or a ZIP code or anything like that, as you can well imagine. He lived in a basti, or a slum. And I described it as best I could. You know, ‘You enter by the big tree and turn left at the tea stall and walk the path and then start calling out for the family name.’ 

Céline Gounder: They found the guy! And vaccinated him. Tim says the man had smallpox, but the virus hadn’t quite erupted yet, so it was a pretty mild case. 

Tim Miner: Because of his immunization. It is somewhat miraculous, the needle in the haystack. 

[Music fades out] 

Céline Gounder: In Bangladesh, people weren’t likely to just show up to a local clinic to get the vaccine, so the team took the vaccine to the people. 

At its best, public health follows and bends to the rhythm of the culture. For example, after Ramadan, as Muslims began to break the fast for Eid … 

Tim Miner: Where people go back to their villages and visit and bring presents and gifts and food. 

[Ambient sounds of the water from a port in Bangladesh play] 

Céline Gounder: The team went to ports where steamer ships departed, asking in Bengali if travelers had come in contact with anyone with the disease’s distinctive pustules. 

Tim Miner: Guṭibasanta, uh, basanta rōgī. 

Céline Gounder: Which means “smallpox patient.” 

Tim Miner: Have you seen any guṭibasanta and basanta rōgī? 

Céline Gounder: Tim says he relied on his team to figure out how best to make the person in front of them comfortable. 

Tim Miner: ‘What would you do? What do you think should be done in this case?’ And I don’t think this is done often enough. It was a real partnership. It was real working together. 

Céline Gounder: Well, a partnership, yes. But Shahidul Haq Khan says the search-and-containment program was pretty strict. His work was meticulously checked and checked again. 

Remember, he was maybe 21 or 22 years old, with a big responsibility on his shoulders, and Tim Miner was a tough boss. 

Shahidul Haq Khan: [Shahidul speaking in Bengali] 

English translation: At any cost, we had to vaccinate all. There was no other way. 

Céline Gounder: Sometimes Shahidul had to return to the same home over and over — or hang out, if the man of the house was still in the fields working. 

Shahidul Haq Khan: [Shahidul speaking in Bengali] 

English translation: We had to wait until they returned. 

Shahidul Haq Khan: [Shahidul speaking in Bengali] 

English translation: Otherwise, Dr. Miner would again take us back there, no matter how late. [Shahidul laughs] 

Céline Gounder: One evening, Shahidul returned to the hospital ship after a day of door-to-door canvassing, and had to give a not-so-great report to Tim. 

[Tense music begins playing] 

Shahidul Haq Khan: [Shahidul speaking in Bengali] … a pregnant, uh, … 

English translation: I couldn’t vaccinate a pregnant woman in Dankupara. This was the first time that I couldn’t vaccinate someone. 

Shahidul Haq Khan: [Shahidul speaking in Bengali] 

English translation: I couldn’t convince her at all. He immediately told us to pack up. He stopped the work and said, “Let’s go.” 

Shahidul Haq Khan: [Shahidul speaking in Bengali] 

English translation: Immediately. At that very moment. 

Tim Miner: We were working basically 24/7, if need be. 

Céline Gounder: The team headed to the speedboat. It was late. And it was freezing. Shahidul remembers the bite of the cold air as they blasted across the water toward the woman’s village. 

Tim Miner: I fully understand, understood why this woman hesitated to be vaccinated. She was expecting a child and she didn’t want to do anything to jeopardize her life or the life of the unborn child. So, we were very gentle in talking with her and answering her questions. It was time well spent. 

Céline Gounder: The woman agreed to take the vaccine. 

Shahidul Haq Khan: [Shahidul speaking in Bengali] 

English translation: That day was one of the most memorable of my life. 

[Music fades to silence] 

Céline Gounder: Many on the team considered their outreach to women fundamental to success in South Asia, because … women talk. 

What they say, what they believe, echoes. 

Tim Miner: They get together, they do the laundry, they do the cooking, they share good times and bad times. This woman who was vaccinated probably showed her vaccination either in her family or in the village. And that’s the importance of getting one person, especially a pregnant woman who will tell others about immunization. 

Céline Gounder: Public health workers trying to end smallpox across South Asia mostly had the same tools — the vaccine, that bifurcated needle, and a strategy — on paper. But squashing the virus required tactics specific to each community: its needs, its culture, its worries … and its terrain. 

[Staccato music begins playing] 

Céline Gounder: Smallpox eradication workers went to great lengths to meet people where they were. 

But Joe Osmundson, who’s a public health advocate in New York City, told me that’s not an approach we see nearly enough in public health today. 

Joe Osmundson: Céline, it’s not your first time at the rodeo. [Celine laughs] Um, it’s like, we’ve all been through this again and again and again. 

We know what the problems are and yet we seem reluctant to actually do the right thing, which is to build processes that meet people where they’re at. 

Céline Gounder: After the break, more on what it looks like to bring public health directly to those who need it most. 

[Music fades to silence] 

Céline Gounder: Mpox, formerly known as monkeypox, is a highly contagious virus. Last summer, mpox cases spiked around the world, spreading quickly, predominantly among men who have sex with men. Mpox spreads through physical contact. It causes a painful blistering rash and, in extreme cases, it can be deadly. 

My colleague Joe Osmundson acted as a community liaison for the New York City Department of Health to help coordinate a culturally appropriate response to mpox. 

Joe Osmundson: I’m a microbiologist by training, but I also just do tons of advocacy and activism as a queer person who believes in equal access to the best biomedicine available. 

Céline Gounder: As mpox cases were increasing, we knew we needed to vaccinate those at highest risk as quickly as possible. Joe’s plan? Mobile vans to quickly bring mpox vaccines to places where high-risk people already were. 

Joe Osmundson: Our idea was to go to commercial sex venues, because commercial sex venues self-select for people with a large number of sexual partners. And if you give them the best possible immunity, that protects not just the people at the party but all the other people in the larger sexual network that they connect with. 

Céline Gounder: What is a commercial sex venue? 

Joe Osmundson: It’s basically a nonhousehold space where people gather for sex. 

When you have public venues where people gather, you have the opportunity to meet them where they’re at, to provide education, to provide condoms, to provide access to HIV testing and access to health care. 

So many queer people don’t have affirming doctors, don’t feel comfortable asking about sexual health with their physicians. So, you can put a van outside with affirming physicians and actually provide that preventative care that actually stops the infection. 

Céline Gounder: Did you run into any obstacles in doing this outreach? Setting up the mobile vans …? 

Joe Osmundson: So, there is a huge amount of mistrust in this community for city officials, for good reason. For many decades there was a group inside the New York City Department of Health that had undercover people who would go to these parties and find violations and close them down. So really it was only me and a couple other people doing outreach on-site. 

Céline Gounder: How did it work, what was the scene like, and what was your role in that? 

Joe Osmundson: Yeah, so, when I was there, I would go inside the club and, you know, there’s a little line, an area where people get dressed or undressed, and I would just hang out there and people would have a lot of questions. 

So, because, again, they perceived me as being, like, a part of their community, it was very easy to talk to people and just ask, you know, “Hey, have you had your vaccine yet? Have you had both doses?” If not, you know, it’ll take 15 minutes. I can walk you down to the van and get you that dose tonight. 

Céline Gounder: Were these mobile vaccination vans successful? 

Joe Osmundson: We find them to be massively successful. Once the city was able to get the vans there, people were so grateful to be able to get a shot on-site. 

We were giving 60, 80 doses per event — when the event might only have 140 people — so we were vaccinating 60% of these parties. 

That’s the other magic of the mobile units, was that you had people queer people talking to queer people, and even queer people of color talking to queer people of color and offering the care in terms that that community knows how to respond to and also just has more inherent trust with. 

Céline Gounder: But, at the same time, in New York City, mpox vaccination rates have been disproportionately low in Black communities. 

Joe Osmundson: Mm-hmm. 

Céline Gounder: As well as Hispanic communities. 

What could public health leaders have done from the start to ensure more equitable vaccine distribution, and what should they be doing now? 

Joe Osmundson: Yeah. It was a remarkable sort of mistake that, not just New York, but many cities made where they said we’ll build the foundation and then worry about equity later, because this is an emergency. 

So we’ll open up a brick-and-mortar in Chelsea, and then we’ll get the vaccine vans up at, you know, Brooklyn Pride, a Bronx health clinic. You know, we’ll do that later. 

We know that if you don’t do equity as the foundation, you will be chasing disparities. 

Céline Gounder: What can we say about who’s been vaccinated and who remains unvaccinated? 

Joe Osmundson: Black people are undervaccinated. They also have a higher rate of advanced HIV infection, and mpox plus advanced HIV means really severe disease and even death. Ninety percent of mpox deaths have been in Black people, Black queer people with advanced HIV. 

And we need something brand-new because we’ve been failing these folks for years. They have so many horrific experiences with their health care providers, or they don’t have insurance, or they’re underemployed, or they live super far from the nearest health care clinic. 

When people have difficulties accessing care, it spreads to every disease state, from HIV to mpox to primary care, etc. 

Céline Gounder: How can we apply this model of health outreach beyond mpox? 

Joe Osmundson: The model that we’re trying to build is a mobile unit that delivers all sorts of sexual and primary health care opportunities. They are opportunities! You know? If someone’s getting a covid vaccine, give them a flu vaccine at the same time. The literature shows that these interventions work. 

Céline Gounder: What else is there beyond vans? Are there other strategies when it comes to reaching people where they are that we haven’t employed that we should be thinking about? 

Joe Osmundson: We have affirming clinicians, affirming Black queer clinicians all over this city. Their expertise should be fostered. 

For years there’s been this model of health officials talking to community. And that’s outreach. And we aren’t done with that. 

We have experts, we have clinicians, we have epidemiologists, we have scientists who are in the community who know the science just as well as health officials. And communication needs to go two ways. 

Céline Gounder: That was Joe Osmundson, a microbiologist at New York University and the author of the book “Virology.” 

Joe Osmundson: The sexiest public health outreach worker of all time! [Laughter] A face made for radio. [Laughter] 

[“Epidemic” theme music begins playing] 

Céline Gounder: Next time on “Epidemic” … 

Larry Brilliant: Your company is sending death all over the world. You’re the greatest exporter of smallpox in history … You’ve got to stop this. 

Céline Gounder: “Eradicating Smallpox,” our latest season of “Epidemic,” is a co-production of KFF Health News and Just Human Productions. 

Additional support provided by the Sloan Foundation. 

This episode was produced by Taylor Cook, Zach Dyer, and me. 

Redwan Ahmed was our translator and local reporting partner in Bangladesh. 

Managing editor Taunya English was scriptwriter for the episode — with help from Stephanie O’Neill. 

Oona Tempest is our graphics and photo editor. 

The show was engineered by Justin Gerrish. 

Voice acting by Pinaki Kar. 

We had extra editing help from Simone Popperl. 

Music in this episode is from the Blue Dot Sessions and Soundstripe. 

We’re powered and distributed by Simplecast. 

If you enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. And leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps more people find the show. 

Follow KFF Health News on Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok. 

And find me on Twitter @celinegounder. On our socials, there’s more about the ideas we’re exploring on the podcasts. And subscribe to our newsletters at kffhealthnews.org so you’ll never miss what’s new and important in American health care, health policy, and public health news. 

I’m Dr. Céline Gounder. Thanks for listening to “Epidemic.” 

[“Epidemic” theme fades out] 

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Taunya English
Managing editor

@TaunyaEnglish

Taunya is senior editor for broadcast innovation with KFF Health News, where she leads enterprise audio projects.

Zach Dyer
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@zkdyer

Zach is senior producer for audio with KFF Health News, where he supervises all levels of podcast production.

Taylor Cook
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@taylormcook7

Taylor is associate audio producer for Season 2 of Epidemic. She researches, writes, and fact-checks scripts for the podcast.

Oona Tempest
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Oona is a digital producer and illustrator with KFF Health News. She researched, sourced, and curated the images for the season.

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Julie Rovner
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Julie Rovner is chief Washington correspondent and host of KFF Health News’ weekly health policy news podcast, “What the Health?” A noted expert on health policy issues, Julie is the author of the critically praised reference book “Health Care Politics and Policy A to Z,” now in its third edition.

Ohio voters — in a rare August election — turned out in unexpectedly high numbers to defeat a ballot measure that would have made it harder to pass an abortion-rights constitutional amendment on the ballot in November. The election was almost a year to the day after Kansas voters also stunned observers by supporting abortion rights in a ballot measure.

Meanwhile, the percentage of Americans without health insurance dropped to an all-time low of 7.7% in early 2023, reported the Department of Health and Human Services. But that’s not likely to continue, as states boot from the Medicaid program millions of people who received coverage under special eligibility rules during the pandemic.

This week’s panelists are Julie Rovner of KFF Health News, Emmarie Huetteman of KFF Health News, Joanne Kenen of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico, and Rachel Roubein of The Washington Post.

Panelists

Emmarie Huetteman
KFF Health News

@emmarieDC

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Joanne Kenen
Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico

@JoanneKenen

Read Joanne's stories

Rachel Roubein
The Washington Post

@rachel_roubein

Read Rachel's stories

Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:

• It should not have come as much of a surprise that Ohio voters sided with abortion-rights advocates. Abortion rights so far have prevailed in every state that has considered a related ballot measure since the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade, including in politically conservative states like Kentucky and Montana.
• Moderate Republicans and independents joined Democrats in defeating the Ohio ballot question. Opponents of the measure — which would have increased the threshold of votes needed to approve state constitutional amendments to 60% from a simple majority — had not only cited its ramifications for the upcoming vote on statewide abortion access, but also for other issues, like raising the minimum wage.
• A Texas case about exceptions under the state’s abortion ban awaits the input of the state’s Supreme Court. But the painful personal experiences shared by the plaintiffs — notable in part because such private stories were once scarce in public discourse — pressed abortion opponents to address the consequences for women, not fetuses.
• The uninsured rate hit a record low earlier this year, a milestone that has since been washed away by states’ efforts to strip newly ineligible Medicaid beneficiaries from their rolls as the covid-19 public health emergency ended.
• The promise of diabetes drugs to assist in weight loss has attracted plenty of attention, yet with their high price tags and coverage issues, one thorny obstacle to access remains: How could we, individually and as a society, afford this?
• Lawmakers are asking more questions about the nature of nonprofit, or tax-exempt, hospitals and the care they provide to their communities. But they still face an uphill battle in challenging the powerful hospital industry.

Also this week, Rovner interviews Kate McEvoy, executive director of the National Association of Medicaid Directors, about how the “Medicaid unwinding” is going as millions have their eligibility for coverage rechecked.

Plus, for “extra credit” the panelists suggest health policy stories they read this week that they think you should read, too:

Julie Rovner: KFF Health News’ “How the Texas Trial Changed the Story of Abortion Rights in America,” by Sarah Varney.

Joanne Kenen: Fox News’ “Male Health Care Leaders Complete ‘Simulated Breastfeeding Challenge’ at Texas Hospital: ‘Huge Eye-Opener’,” by Melissa Rudy.

Rachel Roubein: Stat’s “From Windows to Wall Art, Hospitals Use Virtual Reality to Design More Inclusive Rooms for Kids,” by Mohana Ravindranath.

Emmarie Huetteman: KFF Health News’ “The NIH Ices a Research Project. Is It Self-Censorship?” by Darius Tahir.

Also mentioned in this week’s episode:

• Politico’s “Abortion Rights Won Big in Ohio. Here’s Why It Wasn’t Particularly Close,” by Madison Fernandez, Alice Miranda Ollstein, and Zach Montellaro.
• KFF Health News’ “Seeking Medicare Coverage for Weight Loss Drugs, Pharma Giant Courts Black Influencers,” by Rachana Pradhan.
• Stat’s “Alarmed by Popularity of Ozempic and Wegovy, Insurers Wage Multi-Front Battle,” by Elaine Chen.

click to open the transcript

Transcript: On Abortion Rights, Ohio Is the New Kansas

KFF Health News’ ‘What the Health?’Episode Title: On Abortion Rights, Ohio Is the New KansasEpisode Number: 309Published: Aug. 10, 2023

[Editor’s note: This transcript, generated using transcription software, has been edited for style and clarity.]

Julie Rovner: Hello and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Julie Rovner, chief Washington correspondent for KFF Health News, and I’m joined by some of the best and smartest health reporters in Washington. We’re taping a day early this week, on Wednesday, Aug. 9, at 3:30 p.m. As always, news happens fast, and things might have changed by the time you hear this. So here we go. We are joined today via video conference by Joanne Kenen of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico.

Joanne Kenen: Hey, everybody.

Rovner: Rachel Roubein of The Washington Post.

Rachel Roubein: Hi, everybody.

Rovner: And my colleague and editor here at KFF Health News Emmarie Huetteman.

Emmarie Huetteman: Hey, everyone. Glad to be here.

Rovner: So later in this episode, we’ll have my interview with Kate McEvoy, executive director of the National Association of Medicaid Directors. She’s got her pulse on how that big post-public health emergency “Medicaid unwinding” is going. And she’ll share some of that with us. But first, this week’s news. I guess the biggest news of the week is out of Ohio, which, in almost a rerun of what happened in Kansas almost exactly a year ago, voters soundly defeated a ballot issue that would have made it harder for other voters this fall to reverse the legislature’s strict abortion ban. If you’re having trouble following that, so did they in Ohio. [laughs] This time, the fact that the abortion rights side won wasn’t as much of a surprise because every statewide abortion ballot question has gone for the abortion rights side since Roe v. Wade was overturned last year. What do we take away from Ohio? Other than it looked a lot like … the split looked a lot like Kansas. It was almost 60-40.

Kenen: It shows that there’s a coalition around this issue that is bigger than Democrat or Republican. Ohio was the classic swing state that has turned into a conservative Republican-voting state — not on this issue. This was clearly independents, moderate Republicans joined Democrats to … 60-40, roughly, is a pretty big win. Yes, we’ve seen it in other states. It’s still a pretty big win.

Roubein: I agree. And I think one of my colleagues, Patrick Marley, and I spent some time just driving around and traveling Ohio in July. And one of the things that we did find is that — this ballot measure to increase the threshold for constitutional amendments is 60% — it had in some, in many, ways turned into a proxy war over abortion. But, in some ways, both sides also didn’t talk about abortion when they were, you know, canvassing different voters. You know, they use different tools in the toolbox. I was following around someone from Ohio Right to Life and, you know, he very much said, “Abortion is the major issue to me.” But, you know, they tried to kind of bring together the side that supported this. Other issues like legalizing marijuana and raising the minimum wage, and, you know, the abortion rights side was very much a part of, you know, the opposition here. But when some canvassers went out — my colleague Patrick had traveled and followed some, and some, you know, kind of focused on other issues like, you know, voters having a voice in policy and keeping a simple majority rule.

Rovner: Yeah, I think it’s important — for those who have not been following this as closely as we have — what the ballot measure was was to make future ballot measures — and they said they were not going to have them in August anymore, which, this was the last one — in order to amend the constitution by referendum, you would need a 60% majority rather than a 50% majority. And just coincidentally, there is an abortion ballot measure on Ohio’s ballot for November, and it’s polling at about 58%. But, yes, this would have applied to everything, and it was defeated.

Kenen: And it’s part of a larger trend. It began before the overturning of Roe v. Wade. Over the last couple of years, you’ve seen conservative states move to tighten these rules for ballot initiatives. And that’s because more liberal positions have been winning. I mean, Medicaid, the Medicaid expansion on the ballot, has won, and won big. Only one was even close …

Rovner: In very red states!

Kenen: They often won very big in a number of very, very conservative states, places like Idaho and Nebraska. So, you know, there’s always been … the conventional wisdom is that, you know, the political parties are more extreme than many voters, that the Democratic Party is for the left and the Republican Party is for the right. And there are a lot of people who identify with one party or the other but aren’t … who are more moderate or, in this case, more liberal on Medicaid. And Medicaid … what was it, seven states? I think it’s seven. Seven really conservative states. And then the abortion has won in every single state. And there’s a little bit of conversation and it’s … very early. And I don’t know if it’s going to go anywhere, but if I’ve heard it and written a bit about it, conservative lawmakers have heard about it, too, which is there are groups interested in trying to get some gun safety initiatives on ballots. So that’s complicated. And it may not happen. But they’re seeing, I mean, that’s the classic example of both a criminal justice and a public health issue — so we can talk about it — a classic example where the country is much more in the center.

Rovner: Well, let us move to Texas, because that’s where we always end up when we talk about abortion. You may remember that lawsuit where several women who nearly died from pregnancy complications sued the state to clarify when medical personnel are able to intercede without being subjected to fines and/or jail sentences. Well, the women won, at least for a couple of days. A Texas district judge who heard the case ruled in their favor, temporarily blocking the Texas ban for women with pregnancy complications. But then the state appealed, and a Texas appeals court blocked the lower-court judge’s blocking of part of the ban. If you didn’t follow that, it just means that legally nothing has changed in Texas. And now the case goes to the Texas Supreme Court, which has a conservative majority. So we pretty much know what’s going to happen. But whether these women ultimately win or lose their case may not be the most important thing. And, to explain why I’m going to do my extra credit early this week. It’s by my KFF Health News colleague Sarah Varney. It’s called “How the Texas Trial Changed the Story of Abortion Rights in America.” She writes that this trial was particularly significant because it put abortion foes on the defensive by graphically depicting harm to women of abortion bans — rather than to fetuses. And it’s also about the power of people publicly telling their stories. I’ve done a lot of stories over the years about women whose very wanted pregnancies went very wrong, very late. And, I have to tell you, it’s been hard to find these women. And when you find them, it’s been really hard to get them to talk to a journalist. So, the fact that we’re seeing more and more people actually come out publicly, you know, may do for this issue what, you know, perhaps what gay rights, you know, what people coming out as gay did for gay marriage? I don’t know. What do you guys think?

Kenen: Well, I think these stories have been really compelling, but they’re also, they’re the most dramatic and maybe easiest to push back. But it’s, you know, there’s a whole lot of other reasons women want abortions. And the focus — and it’s life and death, so the focus, quite rightfully, has to be on these really extreme cases. But that’s not … it’s still in some ways shifting attention from the larger political discussion about choice and rights. But, clearly, some of these states, we’ve seen so many stories of women who, their lives are at stake, their doctors know it, and they just don’t think they have the legal power; they’re afraid of the consequences if they’re second-guessed. There are tremendous financial and imprisonment [risks] for a doctor who is deemed to have done an unnecessary abortion. And this idea that’s taken hold … among some conservatives is that there’s never a need for a medical abortion. And that’s just not true.

Rovner: And yet, I mean, what this trial and a lot of things in Sarah’s piece too point out is that that line between miscarriage and abortion is really kind of fuzzy in a lot of cases. You know, if you go to the hospital with a miscarriage and they’re going to say, “Well, did you initiate this miscarriage?” And we’ve seen women thrown in jail before for losing pregnancies, with them saying, “You know, you threw yourself down the stairs to end this pregnancy.” That actually happened, I think it was in Indiana. So this is —

Kenen: And miscarriage is very common.

Rovner: That was what I was saying.

Kenen: Early miscarriage is very common. Very, very common.

Huetteman: One of the things that’s so striking about the past year, since Dobbs overturned Roe v. Wade ,is that we’ve seen this kind of national education about what pregnancy is and how dangerous it can be and how care needs to really be flexible to meet those sorts of challenges. And this actually got me thinking about something that another familiar voice on this podcast, Alice Miranda Ollstein, and some colleagues wrote this morning about the Ohio outcome, which is they pointed out that the anti-abortion movement really hasn’t evolved in terms of the arguments that they’re making in the past year about why abortion should continue to be less and less available. Meanwhile, we’ve got these, like, really incredible, really emotional, moving stories from women who have experienced this firsthand. And that’s a hard message to overcome when you’re trying to reach voters in particular.

Rovner: And it’s interesting; both sides like to take — you know, they all go to the hardest cases. So, for years and years, the anti-abortion side has, you know, has gone to the hardest cases. And that’s why they talk about abortion in the ninth month up till birth, which isn’t a thing, but they talk about it. And you know, now the abortion rights side has some hard cases now that abortions are harder to get. Well, while we are on the subject of Texas lawsuits, States Newsroom — and thank you for sending this my way, Joanne — has a story reporting that the publisher of the scientific paper that both the lower court judge and the appeals court judges used to conclude that the abortion drug mifepristone causes frequent complications — it does not — is being reviewed for potential scientific misconduct. The paper comes from the Charlotte Lozier Institute, which is the research arm of the anti-abortion group the Susan B. Anthony List. Sage, which is the publisher of the journal that the paper appeared in, has posted something called an expression of concern, saying that the publisher and editor, quote, “were alerted to potential issues regarding the representation of data in the article and author conflicts of interest. SAGE has contacted the authors of this article and an investigation is underway.” This was sort of a whistleblower by a pharmacist who looked at the way the data in this paper was put together and says, “No, that’s really very misleading.” I don’t think I’ve ever seen this, though; I’ve never seen a scientific paper that’s now being questioned for its political bent, a peer-reviewed scientific paper. I mean, this could change a lot of things, couldn’t it?

Kenen: Well, not if people decide that they still think it’s true. I mean, look at — you know, the vaccine autism paper was retracted. That wasn’t initially political. It’s become more political over the years; it wasn’t political at the time. That was retracted. And people have been jumping up and down screaming, “It was retracted! It was retracted!” And, you know, millions of people still believe it. So, I mean, legally, I’m not sure how much it changes. I mean, I thought we had all heard that there were flaws in this study. This article was good because I hadn’t been aware of how deeply flawed and in all the many ways it was flawed. And also the whistleblower yarn was interesting. I’m not sure how much it changes anything.

Rovner: Well, I’m thinking not in terms of this case. And by the way, I think we didn’t say this, that the study was of emergency room visits by women who’d had either surgical or medical abortions. And the contention was that medical abortions were more dangerous than surgical abortions because more women ended up in the emergency room. But as several people have pointed out, more people ended up in the emergency room after medical abortions because there have been so many more medical abortions over the years. I mean, you don’t actually have to be a data scientist to see some of the problems.

Kenen: Right. And some of them also weren’t that — really, were nervous, and they didn’t know what was normal and they went to the ER because they were scared and they really were safe. They were not — they didn’t need — you know, they just weren’t sure how much pain and discomfort or bleeding you’re supposed to have. And they went and they were reassured and were sent home. So it’s not even that they really had a medical emergency or that they were harmed.

Rovner: Or that they had a complication.

Kenen: Right. There were many flaws pointed out with this research.

Rovner: But my broader question is, I mean, if people are going to start questioning the politics of scientific papers, I mean, I could see the other side going after this.

Kenen: Well, there’s climate science, too, that’s bad. I mean, I don’t think this is actually unique. I think it’s egregious. But there were studies minimizing the risk of smoking, which was also a political business, commercial. Climate is certainly political. I mean, I think this is sort of the most politicized and most acute example, but I don’t think it’s the only one.

Roubein: And I think, Julie, as you’d mentioned, I think when [U.S. District Judge] Matthew Kacsmaryk in Texas came down with his decision — you know, for instance, there are media outlets — that my colleagues at the Post did a story just kind of unpacking some of the kind of flaws and some of the studies that were used to make, you know, a court decision.

Rovner: Yeah, to give the judge what he assumes to be evidence that this is a dangerous drug. So it’s — yeah.

Kenen: Which he came in believing, we know, from the profiles of him and his background.

Rovner: Right. All right, well, let us move on. The official Census Bureau estimate of how many people lack health insurance won’t be out until next month. But the Department of Health and Human Services is out with a report based on that other big federal population survey that shows the uninsured rate early this year was at its lowest level since records started being kept, which I think was in the 1980s: 7.7%. Now, that’s clearly going to be the high point for the fewest number of people uninsured, at least for a while, because clearly not all of the millions of people who are losing or about to lose their Medicaid coverage are going to end up with other insurance. But I remember — Joanne, you will, too — when the rate was closer to 18% … was a huge news story, and the thing that triggered the whole health reform debate in the first place. I’m surprised that there’s been so little attention paid to this.

Kenen: Because, you know … [unintelligible] … it’s so yesterday. And also, as you alluded to, you know, we’re in the middle of the Medicaid unwinding. So the numbers are going up again now. And we don’t know. We know that it’s a couple of million people. I think 3 million might be the last —

Rovner: I think it’s 4 [million], it’s up to 4.

Kenen: Four, OK. And some of them will get covered again and some of them will find other sources of coverage. But right now, there’s an uptick, not a downtick.

Roubein: And I think when you look at just, like, estimates of what the insured and the uninsured rates would be in 2030, like, the CMS’ [Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services] analysis, one of the other questions is, you know, whether the enhanced Obamacare subsidies continue past 2025. So there’s Medicaid and then there’s also some other kind of question marks and cliffs coming up on how and whether it will fluctuate.

Rovner: No, it’s worth watching. And remember, when the census numbers come out, those will be for 2022. Well, moving on, we have two stories this week looking at the potential cost of those breakthrough obesity drugs, but through two very different lenses. One is from my KFF Health News colleague Rachana Pradhan, details how the makers of the current “it” drug, Ozempic, which is Novo Nordisk, in an effort to get the votes to lift the Medicare payment ban on weight loss drugs, is quietly contributing large amounts of money to groups like the Congressional Black Caucus Foundation and the Congressional Hispanic Caucus Institute. It’s sort of a backdoor lobbying that’s pretty age-old, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t work. The other story, by Elaine Chen at Stat, looks at how health insurers are pushing back hard against the off-label use of diabetes medications that also work to help people lose weight. They’re doing things like allowing the more expensive weight loss drugs only if people have tried and failed other methods or disallowing them if the other methods had been slightly successful. So, if you take a lesser drug and you lose enough weight, they won’t let you take the better drug because, look, you lost weight on the other drug. We’ve talked about this, obviously, before: These drugs, on the one hand, have the potential to make a lot of people both healthier and happier. There’s a study out this week that shows that Mounjaro, the Eli Lilly drug, actually reduces heart disease by 20%.

Kenen: In people who have heart disease.

Rovner: Right, in people who have heart disease.

Kenen: It’s not lowering everybody’s risk.

Rovner: But still, I mean, everybody’s — well, I mean, there are medical indications for using these drugs for weight loss. But if everybody who wants them could get them, it would literally break the bank. Nobody can afford to give everybody who’s eligible for these drugs these drugs. Is the winner here going to be the side with the most effective lobbying, or is that too cynical?

Huetteman: Isn’t that always the winner? Speaking of cynical.

Rovner: Yeah, in health care.

Kenen: Well, I mean, I also think there’s questions about, like, these drugs clearly are really wonderful for people who they were designed for; you don’t have to be on insulin. They’re having not just weight loss and diabetes. There are apparently cardiac and other — you know, these are probably really good drugs. But there are a lot of people who do not have diabetes or heart disease who want them because they want to lose 20 pounds. And some of them are being told you have to take it for the rest of your life. I mean, I just know this anecdotally, and I’m sure we all know it anecdotally.

Rovner: Right. It’s like statins.

Kenen: Yes.

Rovner: Or blood pressure medication. If you stop taking your blood pressure medication, your blood pressure goes back up.

Kenen: Right. So, I mean, should the goal for the weight loss be, “OK, this is going to help you take off that weight and then you’re going to have to maintain it through diet and exercise and healthy lifestyle,” blah, blah, blah, which is hard for people. We know that. Or are we putting healthy people on a really expensive drug that changes an awful lot of things about their body indefinitely? We don’t have safety data for lifelong use in otherwise healthy people. So, you know, I’m always a little worried because even the best clinical trial is small compared to the entire — it’s small and it’s time-limited. And maybe these drugs are going to turn out to be absolutely phenomenal and we’re going to all live another 20 healthy years. But maybe not, you know. Or maybe they’re going to be really great for a certain subpopulation, but, you know, we’re not going to want to put it in the water supply. So, I still think that there’s this sort of pell-mell rush. And I think it’s partly because there’s a lot of money at stake. And it’s also, like, most people who are overweight have tried to lose it, and it’s very difficult to lose and maintain weight. So, you know, people want an easier way to do it. And I think the other thing is right now it’s an injection. There are side effects for some people on discomfort. There probably will be an oral version, a pill, sometime fairly soon, which will open — you know, there are people who don’t want to take a shot who would take a pill. It also means you might be able to tell — I mean, I don’t know the science of the pills, but it would make sense to me that you could take a lower dose, you know, maybe ease into it without the side effects, or could you stay on it longer with fewer problems? I mean, we’re just the very beginning of this, but it’s a huge amount of money.

Rovner: Yeah. You could see — I mean, my big question, though, is why can’t we force the drugmakers to lower the price? That would, if not solve the problem, make it a lot better. I mean, really, we’re going to have to wait until there is generic competition?

Kenen: It’s not just this.

Rovner: Yeah.

Kenen: I mean, it’s all sorts of cancer treatments and it’s hepatitis treatments. And it’s, I mean, there’s a lot of expensive drugs out there. So, this one just has a lot of demand because it makes you skinny.

Rovner: Well, that was the thing. We went through this with the hepatitis C drugs, which were really super expensive. It’s much more like that.

Kenen: Well, they seemed super expensive at the time —

Rovner: Not so much anymore.

Kenen: — but maybe for a thousand dollars, in retrospect.

Rovner: All right. Well, let’s move on. So, speaking of powerful lobbies, let’s talk about hospitals. Iowa Republican Sen. Chuck Grassley and Massachusetts Democrat Elizabeth Warren — now, there is an unlikely couple — are among those asking the IRS to more carefully examine tax-exempt hospitals to make sure they’re actually benefiting the community in exchange for not paying taxes, which is supposed to be the deal. Now, Sen. Grassley has been on this particular hobbyhorse for many, many years, I think probably more than 20, but not much ever seems to come of this. I can’t tell you how many workshops I’ve been to on, you know, how to measure community benefits that tax-exempt hospitals are providing. Any inkling that this time is going to be any different?

Roubein: Well, hospitals don’t tend to be sort of the losers. They try and kind of frame themselves as, like, “We’re your sort of friendly neighborhood hospital,” and every — I mean, every congressman, most congressmen have, you know, hospitals in their district. So they they get lobbied a lot, though, you know — I mean, this is a different issue, but particularly on the House side, hospitals are facing site-neutral payments, which if that actually went through Congress would be a loss. So yeah, but lawmakers have found it in general hard to take on the hospital industry.

Rovner: Yeah, very much so.

Kenen: Yeah. I mean, I think that we think of nonprofits and for-profits as, they’re different, but they’re not as different as we think they are, in that, you know, nonprofits are getting a tax break and they have to reinvest their profits. But it doesn’t mean they’re not making a lot of money. Some of them are. I mean, some of them have, you know, we’ve all walked into fancy nonprofits with, you know, fancy art and marble floors and so on and so forth. And we’ve all been in nonprofits that are barely keeping their doors open. So it’s your tax status. It’s not really, you know, your ethical status or the quality of care. I mean, there’s good nonprofits, there’s good for-profits. You know, this whole thing is like, if I were a hospital, I would be getting this huge tax break, and what am I doing to deserve it? And that’s the question.

Rovner: And I think the argument is, you know, that the 7.7% uninsured we were talking about, that hospitals are supposed to be providing care as part of their community benefit that the federal government now is ending up paying for. I think that’s sort of the frustration. If nonprofit hospitals were doing what they were supposed to do, it would cost federal and state governments less money, which always surprises me because this is not gone after more. I mean, Grassley has spent his whole career working on various types of government fraud. So this is totally in line for him. But it’s never just seemed to be a big priority for any administration.

Huetteman: There’s a little bit of an X factor here. Look at the fact that Grassley and Warren are talking about this publicly now. Maybe I’m just really optimistic from all the journalism we’ve been doing about projects like “Bill of the Month.” But the reality is that a lot of people are now seeing reporting that’s showing to them what nonprofit hospitals are actually doing when it comes to pursuing patients who don’t pay bills. And what it means to have community benefit comes into question a lot when you talk about wage garnishment, suing patients who are low-income for their medical debt. These are things that journalists have uncovered over and over again, happening at — ding, ding, ding — nonprofit hospitals. It’s harder to argue that hospitals are just doing their best for people when you have these stories of poor people who are losing their homes over unpaid medical bills, for instance. And I think that right now, when we’re in this political moment where health care costs are so, so potent to people and so important, I mean, could we see that this will actually be more effective, that we’re heading towards something that’s more effective? Maybe.

Rovner: Well, repeats the journalist, as we all are, the power of storytelling. Definitely the public is primed. I imagine that’s why they’re doing it now. We’ll see what comes of it.

Kenen: think the public is primed for bad practices. I’m not sure how many patients understand if the hospital they go to is a nonprofit or a for-profit. I think the public understands that everything in health care costs too much and that there are bad actors and greed. There’s a difference between profit and greed, and I think many people would say that we’re now in an era of greed. And not everybody in the health care sector — before anybody calls us up and shouts, “Not everybody who provides care is greedy” — but we’ve seen, you know, it is clearly out there. You know, you had Zeke Emanuel on a couple of weeks ago. Remember what he said, that, you know, 10 years ago, some people still liked their health care and now nobody likes their health care, rich or poor.

Rovner: Yeah, he’s right. All right. Well, that is this week’s news. Now, we’ll play my interview with Kate McEvoy of the National Association of Medicaid Directors about how the Medicaid unwinding is going. And one note before you listen: Kate frequently refers to the federal CMCS, which is not a misspeak; it stands for the Center for Medicaid and CHIP Services, which is the branch of CMS, the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services, that deals with Medicaid. So, here’s the interview:

I am pleased to welcome to the podcast Kate McEvoy, executive director of the National Association of Medicaid Directors, which is pretty much exactly what the name says, a group where state Medicaid officials can share information and ideas. Kate, welcome to “What the Health?”

Kate McEvoy: Good afternoon. Thanks for having me.

Rovner: Obviously, the Medicaid unwinding, which we have talked about a lot on the podcast, is Topic A for your members right now. Remind us again which Medicaid recipients are having their coverage eligibility rechecked? It’s not just those in the expansion group from the Affordable Care Act, right?

McEvoy: It’s not, no. Each and every person served by the country nationwide has to be reevaluated from an eligibility standpoint this year.

Rovner: What do we know about how it’s going? We’re seeing lots of reports that suggest the vast majority of people losing coverage are for paperwork reasons, not because they’ve been found to be no longer eligible. I know you recently surveyed your members. What are they telling you about this?

McEvoy: So, I first want to say this is an unprecedented task and it’s obviously historically significant for everyone served by the program. The volume of the work, and also the complexity, makes it a challenging task for all states and territories. But what we are seeing to date is a few things. First, we have seen an incredible effort on the part of states and territories to saturate really every means of communicating with their membership, really getting out that message around connecting with the programs, especially if an individual has moved during the period of the pandemic, which is very typical for people served by Medicaid. So that saturation of messaging and use of new means of connecting with people, like texting, really does represent a tremendous advance for the Medicaid program that has traditionally relied on a lot of complex, formal, legal notices to people. So that seems like a very positive thing. What we are seeing, and this is not unexpected, is that, you know, for reasons related to complex life circumstances and competing considerations, many people are not responding to those notices, no matter how we are transmitting those messages. And so that is a piece that is of great interest and concern to all of us, notably Medicaid directors wanting to make sure that eligible folks do not lose coverage simply because they are not responsive to the requests for more information. So we’re at a point where we’re beyond that initial push around messaging and now are really focused on means of protecting people who remain eligible, either through automatic review of their eligibility — the ex parte process — or by restoring them through such means as reconsideration. That’s really the main focus right now.

Rovner: And there’s that 90-day reconsideration window. Is that … how does that work?

McEvoy: So the federal law gives this period of 90 days to families and children within which they can be renewed with very little effort, essentially removing the responsibility to complete a new application. We also have long-standing help to people called “presumptive eligibility.” So if someone goes to a federally qualified health center or, more unfortunately, goes to the hospital, many of those types of providers can restore someone’s eligibility. So those are important protective pieces. We also know from the survey that you mentioned of our membership that many states and territories are extending those reconsideration protections to all coverage groups — also including older adults and people with disabilities.

Rovner: So are there any states that are doing anything that’s different and innovative? I remember when CHIP [the federal Children’s Health Insurance Program] was being stood up — and boy, that was a long time ago, like 1999 — South Carolina put flyers in pizza boxes, and some other state put flyers in sneaker boxes for back-to-school stuff. Are there better ways to maybe get ahold of these people?

McEvoy: So I think the answer is: a lot of different channels. Our colleagues in Louisiana have a partnership with Family Dollar stores to essentially feature this information on receipts. There’s a lot of work at pharmacy counters. Some of the big chain pharmacies have QR codes and other means of prompting people around their Medicaid eligibility. There’s going to be a big push for the back-to-school effort. And I think CMS and states are really interested, particularly in ensuring that children do not lose coverage even if their parents have regained employment and they’re no longer eligible. Another thing that’s going on is a lot of innovation in the means of enabling access to information. So many states have put in place personal apps through which people can track their own eligibility. There’s interest and some uptake of the so-called pizza-tracker function — so you can kind of see where you’re situated in that pipeline — and also a lot of use of automation to help call people back if they’re trying to get to state call centers. So really, all of those types of strategies … we’re seeing a huge amount of effort across the country.

Rovner: How’s the cooperation going with the Department of Health and Human Services? I know that … they seem to be not happy with some states. Are they being helpful, in general?

McEvoy: They’re being extraordinarily helpful. I would say that we often talk about Medicaid representing a federal-state equity partnership, and we’ve seen that manifest from the beginning of the first notice of the certainty around the start of the unwinding. CMCS has consistently offered guidance to states. They work with states using a mitigation approach as opposed to moving rapidly to compliance. We feel mitigation is the best way of essentially working out the strategies that are going to best protect continuing eligibility for people at the state level. And we really appreciate CMS’ efforts on that. We understand they do have to ensure accountability across the country, and we’re mutually committed to that.

Rovner: You better explain mitigation strategies.

McEvoy: Yeah, so this is a year where we are calling the question on eligibility standards that help ensure that the pathway to Medicaid coverage is a smooth one, and also that there is continuity of coverage. So, for any state that wasn’t yet meeting all those standards, CMCS essentially entered into an agreement with the state or territory to say, here is how you will get there. And that could have involved some means of improving the automatic renewals for Medicaid. It could have meant relying on an integrated eligibility processes. There are a lot of different tools and strategies that were put in place, but essentially that is a path to every state and territory coming into full compliance.

Rovner: Is there anything unexpected that’s happening? I know so much of this was predicted, and it was predicted that the states that went first that, you know, were really in a hurry to get extra people off of their rolls seem to be doing just that: getting extra people off of their rolls. Are you surprised at the differences among states?

McEvoy: I think that there have definitely been differences among states in terms of the tools they have used from a system standpoint, but I don’t see any differences in terms of retention of eligible people. That remains a shared goal across the entire country. And again, this is a watershed point where we have the opportunity to bring everyone to the same standards, ongoing, so that we help to prevent some of the heartache of the eligibility process for folks ongoing.

Rovner: Anything else I didn’t ask?

McEvoy: Well, I think that piece around the reconsideration period is particularly important. We are struck by there being probably less literacy around that option, and that’s something we want to continue to promote. The other piece I’d wind up by saying is that the Medicaid program is always available for people who are eligible. So in the worst-case scenario in which an otherwise eligible person loses coverage, they can always come back and be covered. This is in contrast to private insurance that may have an annual open enrollment period. Medicaid, as you know, is available on a rolling basis, and we want to keep reinforcing that theme so that no one goes with a gap in coverage.

Rovner: Kate McEvoy, thank you very much. And I hope we can call you back in a couple of months.

McEvoy: I would be very happy to hear from you.

Rovner: OK. We are back and it’s time for our extra credit segment. That’s when we each recommend a story we read this week we think you should read too. As always, don’t worry if you miss it. We will post the links on the podcast page at kffhealthnews.org and in our show notes on your phone or other mobile device. I did mine already. Emmarie, why don’t you go next?

Huetteman: My story this week comes from KFF Health News, my colleague Darius Tahir. He has a story called “The NIH Ices a Research Project. Is It Self-Censorship?” Now, the story talks about the fact that the former head of NIH Francis Collins, was, as he was leaving, announcing an effort to study health communications. And we’re talking about not just doctor-to-patient communications, but actually also how mass communications impact American health. But as Darius found out, the acting director quietly ended the program as NIH was preparing to open its grant applications. And officials who spoke with us said that they think political pressure over misinformation is to blame. Now, we don’t have to look too far for examples of conservative pressure over misinformation and information these days. In particular, there’s a notable one from just last month out of a Louisiana court, the federal court decision that blocked government officials from communicating with social media companies. You really don’t have to look too far to see that there’s a chilling effect on information. And we’re talking about the NIH was going to study or rather fund studies into communication and information. Not misinformation, information: how people get information about their health. So it’s a pretty interesting example and a really great story worth your read.

Rovner: And I’ve done nothing but preach about public health communication for three years now.

Kenen: It’s a very good story.

Rovner: Yeah, it was a really good story. Rachel, you’re next.

Roubein: All right. This story is called “From Windows to Wall Art, Hospitals Use Virtual Reality to Design More Inclusive Rooms for Kids,” by Stat News, by Mohana Ravindranath. And I thought this story was really interesting because she kind of dived into what Mohana called “a budding movement to make architecture more inclusive” for the people and patients who are spending a lot, a lot of time in hospital walls. And what some researchers are doing is using virtual reality to essentially gauge how comfortable children who are patients are in hospital rooms. And she talked to researchers at Berkeley who were using these, like, virtual reality headsets to kind of study and explore mocked-up hospital rooms. And, I didn’t know a ton about this field. I mean, apparently it’s not new, but it’s this kind of growing sort of movement to make patients more comfortable in the space that they’re inhabiting for perhaps long periods of time.

Rovner: I went to a conference on architecture, hospital architecture, making it more patient-centered, 10 years ago. But my favorite thing that I still remember from that is they talked about putting art on the ceiling because people are either in bed or they’re in gurneys. They’re looking up at the ceiling a lot. And ceilings are scary in hospitals. So that was one of the things that I took away from that. OK, Joanne, now it’s your turn.

Kenen: OK. This is from Fox News. And yes, you did hear that right. It’s by Melissa Rudy, and the headline is “Male Health Care Leaders Complete ‘Simulated Breastfeeding Challenge’ at Texas Hospital: ‘Huge Eye-Opener’.” So at Covenant Health, they had a bunch of high-level guys in suits pretend they were nursing and/or pumping mothers, and they had to nurse every three hours for 20 minutes at a time. And they found it was quite difficult and quite cumbersome and they didn’t have enough privacy. And as one of them said, “There was no way to multitask.” But trust me, if you have two kids, you have to figure that out, too. So it was a really good story.

Rovner: Some of these things that we feel like should be required everywhere, but it was a great read; it was a really good story. OK, that is our show for this week. As always, if you enjoy the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left us a review; that helps other people find us too. Special thanks this week to Zach Dyer, sitting in for the indefatigable Francis Ying. And as always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org. Or you can tweet me or X me or whatever; I’m @jrovner. And also on Bluesky and Threads. Rachel?

Roubein: @rachel_roubein — that’s on Twitter.

Rovner: Joanne.

Kenen: In most places I’m @JoanneKenen. On Threads, I’m @joannekenen1.

Rovner: Emmarie.

Huetteman: And I am @emmarieDC.

Rovner: We will be back in your feed next week. Until then, be healthy.

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Julie Rovner is chief Washington correspondent and host of KFF Health News’ weekly health policy news podcast, “What the Health?” A noted expert on health policy issues, Julie is the author of the critically praised reference book “Health Care Politics and Policy A to Z,” now in its third edition.

The Biden administration continued a bipartisan, decades-long effort to ensure that health insurance treats mental illnesses the same as other ailments, with a new set of regulations aimed at ensuring that services are actually available without years-long waits or excessive out-of-pocket costs.

Meanwhile, two more committees in Congress approved bills this week aimed at reining in the power of pharmacy benefit managers, who are accused of keeping prescription drug prices high to increase their bottom lines.

This week’s panelists are Julie Rovner of KFF Health News, Anna Edney of Bloomberg, Joanne Kenen of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico, and Sarah Karlin-Smith of the Pink Sheet.

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Anna Edney
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Joanne Kenen
Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico

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Sarah Karlin-Smith
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Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:

• The Biden administration’s new rules to enforce federal mental health parity requirements include no threat of sanctions when health plans do not comply; noncompliance with even the most minimal federal rules has been a problem dating to the 1990s. Improving access to mental health care is not a new policy priority, nor a partisan one, yet it remains difficult to achieve.
• With the anniversary of the 988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline, more people are becoming aware of how to access help and get it. Challenges remain, however, such as the hotline service’s inability to connect callers with local care. But the program seizes on the power of an initial connection for someone in a moment of crisis and offers a lifeline for a nation experiencing high rates of depression, anxiety, and suicide.
• In news about the so-called Medicaid unwinding, 12 states have paused disenrollment efforts amid concerns they are not following renewal requirements. A major consideration is that most people who are disenrolled would qualify to obtain inexpensive or even free coverage through the Affordable Care Act. But reenrollment can be challenging, particularly for those with language barriers or housing insecurity, for instance.
• With a flurry of committee activity, Congress is revving up to pass legislation by year’s end targeting the role of pharmacy benefit managers — and, based on the advertisements blanketing Washington, PBMs are nervous. It appears legislation would increase transparency and inform policymakers as they contemplate further, more substantive changes. That could be a tough sell to a public crying out for relief from high health care costs.
• Also on Capitol Hill, far-right lawmakers are pushing to insert abortion restrictions into annual government spending bills, threatening yet another government shutdown on Oct. 1. The issue is causing heartburn for less conservative Republicans who do not want more abortion votes ahead of their reelection campaigns.
• And the damage to a Pfizer storage facility by a tornado is amplifying concerns about drug shortages. After troubling problems with a factory in India caused shortages of critical cancer drugs, decision-makers in Washington have been keeping an eye on the growing issues, and a response may be brewing.

Also this week, Rovner interviews KFF Health News’ Céline Gounder about the new season of her “Epidemic” podcast. This season chronicles the successful public health effort to eradicate smallpox.

Plus, for “extra credit,” the panelists suggest health policy stories they read this week that they think you should read, too:

Julie Rovner: The Nation’s “The Anti-Abortion Movement Gets a Dose of Post-Roe Reality,” by Amy Littlefield.

Joanne Kenen: Food & Environment Reporting Network’s “Can Biden’s Climate-Smart Agriculture Program Live Up to the Hype?” by Gabriel Popkin.

Anna Edney: Bloomberg’s “Mineral Sunscreens Have Potential Hidden Dangers, Too,” by Anna Edney.

Sarah Karlin-Smith: CNN’s “They Took Blockbuster Drugs for Weight Loss and Diabetes. Now Their Stomachs Are Paralyzed,” by Brenda Goodman.

Also mentioned in this week’s episode:

• CNN’s “Medicaid Disenrollments Paused in a Dozen States After Failure to Comply With Federal Rules,” by Tami Luhby.
• Abortion, Every Day’s “Why Are OBGYNs Being Forced to Go to Texas?” by Jessica Valenti.
• Politico’s “GOP Looks to Spending Fights for Wins on Abortion, Trans Care, Contraception,” by Alice Miranda Ollstein.
• KFF Health News’ “A Year With 988: What Worked? What Challenges Lie Ahead,” by Colleen DeGuzman.

click to open the transcript

Transcript: Another Try for Mental Health ‘Parity’

KFF Health News’ ‘What the Health?’Episode Title: Another Try for Mental Health ‘Parity’Episode Number: 307Published: July 27, 2023

[Editor’s note: This transcript, generated using transcription software, has been edited for style and clarity.]

Julie Rovner: Hello and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Julie Rovner, chief Washington correspondent for KFF Health News, and I’m joined by some of the best and smartest health reporters in Washington. We’re taping this week on Thursday, July 27, at 10 a.m. As always, news happens fast and things might have changed by the time you hear this. So, here we go. We are joined today via video conference by Joanne Kenen of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Politico.

Joanne Kenen: Hi, everybody.

Rovner: Sarah Karlin-Smith, the Pink Sheet.

Sarah Karlin-Smith: Hi, Julie.

Rovner: And Anna Edney of Bloomberg News.

Edney: Hello.

Rovner: Later in this episode, we’ll have my interview with my KFF colleague Céline Gounder about the new season of her podcast “Epidemic,” which tracks one of the last great public health success stories, the eradication of smallpox. But first, this week’s news. I want to start this week with mental health, which we haven’t talked about in a while — specifically, mental health parity, which is both a law and a concept, that mental ailments should be covered and reimbursed by health insurance the same way as a broken bone or case of pneumonia or any other — air quotes — “physical ailment.” Policymakers, Republican and Democrat, and the mental health community have been fighting pretty much nonstop since the mid-1990s to require parity. And despite at least five separate acts of Congress over that time — I looked it up this week — we are still not there yet. To this day, patients with psychiatric illnesses find their care denied reimbursement, made difficult to access, or otherwise treated as lesser. This week, the Biden administration is taking another whack at the issue, putting out proposed rules it hopes will start to close the remaining parity gap, among other things by requiring health plans to analyze their networks and prior authorization rules and other potential barriers to care to ensure that members actually can get the care they need. What I didn’t see in the rules, though, was any new threat to sanction plans that don’t comply — because plans have been not complying for a couple of decades now. How much might these new rules help in the absence of a couple of multimillion-dollar fines?

Edney: I had that same question when I was considering this because I didn’t see like, OK, like, great, they’re going to do their self-policing, and then what? But I do think that there’s the possibility, and this has been used in health care before, of public shaming. If the administration gets to look over this data and in some way compile it and say, here’s the good guys, here’s the bad guys, maybe that gets us somewhere.

Rovner: You know, it strikes me, this has been going on for so very long. I mean, at first it was the employer community actually that did most of the negotiating, not the insurers. Now that it’s required, it’s the insurers who are in charge of it. But it has been just this incredible mountain to scale, and nobody has been able to do it yet.

Kenen: And it’s always been bipartisan.

Rovner: That’s right.

Kenen: And it really goes back to mostly, you know, the late Sen. [Paul] Wellstone [(D-Minn.)] and [Sen. Pete] Domenici [(R-N.M.)], both of whom had close relatives with serious mental illness. You know, Domenici was fairly conservative and traditional conservative, and Wellstone was extremely liberal. And they just said, I mean, this — the parity move began — the original parity legislation, at least the first one I’m aware of. And it was like, I think it was before I came to Washington. I think it was in the ’80s, certainly the early — by the ’90s.

Rovner: It was 1996 when when the first one actually passed. Yeah.

Kenen: I mean, they started talking about it before that because it took them seven or eight years. So this is not a new idea, and it’s not a partisan idea, and it’s still not done. It’s still not there.

Edney: I think there’s some societal shift too, possibly. I mean, we’re seeing it, and maybe we’re getting closer. I’ve seen a lot of billboards lately. I’ve done some work travel. When I’m on the road, I feel like I’m always seeing these billboards that are saying mental health care is health care. And trying to hammer that through has really taken a long time.

Rovner: So while we are on the subject of mental health, one of the good things I think the government has done in the last year is start the 988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline, which turned 1 this month. Early data from shifting the hotline from a 10-digit number to a three-digit one that’s a lot easier to remember does suggest that more people are becoming aware of immediate help and more people are getting it. At the same time, it’s been able to keep up with the demand, even improving call answering times — I know that was a big concern — but there is still a long way to go, and this is hardly a panacea for what we know is an ongoing mental health crisis, right?

Karlin-Smith: This is a good first step to get people in crisis help without some of the risks that we’ve seen. If you go towards the 911 route, sometimes police are not well trained to handle these calls and they end in worse outcomes than necessary. But then you have to have that second part, which is what we were talking about before, which is the access to the longer-term mental health support to actually receive the treatment you need. There’s also some issues with this hotline going forward in terms of long-term funding and, you know, other tweaks they need to work out to make sure, again, that people who are not expecting to interact with law enforcement actually don’t end up indirectly getting there and things like that as well.

Kenen: Do any of you know whether there’s discussion of sort of making people who don’t remember it’s 988 and they call 911 — instead of dispatching cops, are the dispatchers being trained to just transfer it over to 988?

Rovner: That I don’t know.

Kenen: I’m not aware of that. But it just sort of seems common sense.

Rovner: One thing I know they’re working on is, right now I think there’s no geolocation. So when you call 988, you don’t necessarily get automatically referred to resources that are in your community because they don’t necessarily know where you’re calling from. And I know that’s an effort. But yeah, I’m sure there either is or is going to be some effort to interact between 988 and 911.

Kenen: It’s common sense to us. It doesn’t mean it’s actually happening. I mean, this is health care.

Rovner: As we point out, this is mental health care, too.

Kenen: Yeah, right.

Rovner: It’s a step.

Kenen: But I think that, you know, sort of the power of that initial connection is something that’s easy for people to underestimate. I mean, my son in college was doing a helpline during 2020-2021. You know, he was trained, and he was also trained, like, if you think this is beyond what a college-aged volunteer, that if you’re uncertain, you just switched immediately to a mental health professional. But sometimes it’s just, people feel really bad and just having a voice gets them through a crisis moment. And as we all know, there are a lot of people having a lot of crisis moments. I doubt any of us don’t know of a suicide in the last year, and maybe not in our immediate circle, but a friend of a friend, I mean, or, you know — I know several. You know, we are really at a moment of extreme crisis. And if a phone call can help some percentage of those people, then, you know, it needs to be publicized even more and improved so it can be more than a friendly voice, plus a connection to what, ending this repetition of crisis.

Rovner: I feel like the people who worked hard to get this implemented are pretty happy a year later at how, you know — obviously there’s further to go — but they’re happy with how far they’ve come. Well, so, probably the only thing worse than not getting care covered that should be is losing your health coverage altogether, which brings us to the Medicaid unwinding, as states redetermine who’s still eligible for Medicaid for the first time since the start of the pandemic. Our podcast colleague Tami Luhby over at CNN had a story Friday that I still haven’t seen anywhere else. Apparently 12 states have put their disenrollments on pause, says Tami. But we don’t know which 12, according to the KFF disenrollment tracker. As of Wednesday, July 26, at least 3.7 million people have been disenrolled from the 37 states that are reporting publicly, nearly three-quarters of those people for, quote, “procedural reasons,” meaning those people might still be eligible but for some reason didn’t complete the renewal process. The dozen states on pause are apparently ones that HHS [the Department of Health and Human Services] thinks are not following the renewal requirements and presumably ones whose disenrollments are out of line. The Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services, which is overseeing this, is not naming those states, but this points up exactly what a lot of people predicted would happen when states started looking at eligibility again, that a lot of people who were quite likely still eligible were simply going to lose their insurance altogether, right?

Edney: Yeah, it seemed like there was a lot of preparation in some ways to anticipating this. And then, yeah, obviously you had the states that were just raring to go and try to get people off the rolls. And yeah, it would be very interesting to know what those 12 are. I think Tami’s reporting was stellar and she did a really good job. But that’s, like, one piece of the puzzle we’re missing. And I know CMS said that they’re not naming them because they are working well with them to try to fix it.

Rovner: The one thing we obviously do know is that there are several states that are doing this faster than is required — in fact, faster than is recommended. And what we know is that the faster they do it, the more likely they are going to have people sort of fall between the cracks. The people who are determined to be no longer eligible for Medicaid are supposed to be guided to programs for which they are eligible. And presumably most of them, unless they have, you know, gotten a really great job or hit the lottery, will still be eligible at least for subsidies under the Affordable Care Act. And they’re supposed to be guided to those programs. And it’s not clear yet whether that’s happening, although I know there are an awful lot of people who are watching this pretty closely. There were over 90 million people on Medicaid by the end of the pandemic, by the point at which states no longer had to keep people on. That’s a lot more people than Medicaid normally has. It’s usually more around 70 or even 80 million. So there’s excess people. And the question is what’s going to happen to those people and whether they’re going to have some sort of health insurance. And I guess it’s going to be more than a couple of months before we know that. Yes, Joanne.

Kenen: I think that it’s important to remember that there’s no open enrollment season for Medicaid the way there is for the ACA, so that if you’re disenrolled and you get sick and you go to a doctor or a hospital, they can requalify you and you can get it again. The problem is people who think that they’re disenrolled or are told that they’re disenrolled may not realize. They may not go to the doctor because they think they can’t afford it. They may not understand there’s a public education campaign there, too, that I haven’t seen. You know, if you get community health clinics, hospitals, they can do Medicare, Medicaid certification. But it’s dangerous, right? If you think, oh, I’m going to get a bill I can’t afford and I’m just going to see if I can tough this out, that’s not the way to take care of your health. So there’s that additional conundrum. And then, you know, I think that HHS can be flexible on special enrollment periods for those who are not Medicaid-eligible and are ACA-eligible, but most of them are still Medicaid-eligible.

Rovner: If you get kicked off of Medicaid, you get an automatic special enrollment for the ACA anyway.

Kenen: But not forever. If the issue is it’s in a language you don’t speak or at an address you don’t live in, or you just threw it out because you didn’t understand what it was — there is institutional failures in the health care system, and then there’s people have different addresses in three years, particularly poor people; they move around. There’s a communication gap. You know, I talked to a health care system a while ago in Indiana, a safety net, that was going through electronic health records and contacting people. And yet that’s Indiana and they, you know, I think it was Tami who pointed out a few weeks ago on the podcast, Indiana is not doing great, in spite of, you know, really more of a concerted effort than other states or at least other health systems, not that I talk to every single health system in the country. I was really impressed with how proactive they were being. And still people are falling, not just through the cracks. I mean, there’s just tons of cracks. It’s like, you know, this whole landscape of cracks.

Rovner: I think everybody knew this was going to be a big undertaking. And obviously the states that are trying to do it with some care are having problems because it’s a big undertaking. And the states that are doing it with a little bit less care are throwing a lot more people off of their health insurance. And we will continue to follow this. So it is the end of July. I’m still not sure how that happened.

Kenen: ’Cause after June, Julie.

Rovner: Yes. Thank you. July is often when committees in Congress rush to mark up bills that they hope to get to the floor and possibly to the president in that brief period when lawmakers return from the August recess before they go out for the year, usually around Thanksgiving. This year is obviously no exception. While Sen. Bernie Sanders [(I-Vt.)] at the Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee has delayed consideration of that primary care-community health center bill that we talked about last week until September, after Republicans rebelled against what was supposed to have been a bipartisan bill, committee action on pharmacy benefit managers and other Medicare issues did take place yesterday in the Senate Finance Committee and the House Ways and Means Committee. Sarah, you’re following this, right? What’s happening? And I mean, so we’ve now had basically all four of the committees that have some kind of jurisdiction over this who’ve acted. Is something going to happen on PBM regulation this year?

Karlin-Smith: Actually, five committees have acted because the House Ed[ucation] and Workforce Committee has also acted on the topic. So there’s a lot of committees with a stake in this. I think there’s certainly set up for something for the fall, end of the year, to happen in the pharmacy benefit manager space. And there’s a decent amount of bipartisanship around the issue, depending on exactly which committee you’re looking at. But even if the policies that haven’t gotten through haven’t been bipartisan, I think there’s general bipartisan interest among all the committees of tackling the issue. The question is how meaningful, I guess, the policies that we get done are. Right now it looks like what we’re going to end up with is some kind of transparency measure. It reminded me a little bit of our discussion of the mental health stuff [President Joe] Biden is doing going forward. Essentially what it’s going to end up doing is get the government a lot of detailed data about how PBMs operate, how this vertical integration of PBMs — so there’s a lot of common ownership between PBMs, health insurance plans, pharmacies and so forth — may be impacting the cost of our health care and perhaps in a negative way. And then from that point, the idea would be that later Congress could go back and actually do the sort of policy reforms that might be needed. So I know there are some people that are super excited about this transparency because it is such an opaque industry. But at the same point, you can’t kind of go to your constituents and say, “We’ve changed something,” right away or, you know, “We’re going to save you a ton of money with this kind of legislation.”

Rovner: You could tell how worried the PBMs are by how much advertising you see, if you still watch TV that has advertising, which I do, because I watch cable news. I mean, the PBMs are clearly anxious about what Congress might do. And given the fact that, as you point out and as we’ve been saying for years, drug prices are a very bipartisan issue — and it is kind of surprising, like mental health, it’s bipartisan, and they still haven’t been able to push this as far as I think both Democrats and Republicans would like for it to go. Is there anything in these bills that surprised you, that goes further than you expected or less far than expected?

Karlin-Smith: There’s been efforts to sort of delink PBM compensation from rebates. And in the past, when Congress has tried to look into doing this, it’s ended up being extremely costly to the government. And they figured out in this set of policies sort of how to do this without those costs, which is basically, they’re making sure that the PBMs don’t have this perverse incentive to make money off of higher-priced drugs. However, the health plans are still going to be able to do that. So it’s not clear how much of a benefit this will really be, because at this point, the health plans and the PBMs are essentially one and the same. They have the same ownership. But, you know, I do think there has been some kind of creativity and thoughtfulness on Congress’ part of, OK, how do we tackle this without also actually increasing how much the government spends? Because the government helps support a lot of the premiums in these health insurance programs.

Rovner: Yeah. So the government has quite a quite a financial stake in how this all turns out. All right. Well, we will definitely watch that space closely. Let us move on to abortion. In addition to it being markup season for bills like PBMs, it’s also appropriations season on Capitol Hill, with the Sept. 30 deadline looming for a completion of the 12 annual spending bills. Otherwise, large parts of the government shut down, which we have seen before in recent years. And even though Democrats and Republicans thought they had a spending detente with the approval earlier this spring of legislation to lift the nation’s debt ceiling, Republicans in the House have other ideas; they not only want to cut spending even further than the levels agreed to in the debt ceiling bill, but they want to add abortion and other social policy riders to a long list of spending bills, including not just the one for the Department of Health and Human Services but the one for the Food and Drug Administration, which is in the agriculture appropriations, for reasons I’ve never quite determined; the financial services bill, which includes funding for abortion in the federal health insurance plan for government workers; and the spending bill for Washington, D.C., which wants to use its own taxpayer money for abortion, and Congress has been making that illegal pretty much for decades. In addition to abortion bans, conservatives want riders to ban gender-affirming care and even bar the FDA from banning menthol cigarettes. So it’s not just abortion. It’s literally a long list of social issues. Now, this is nothing new. A half a dozen spending bills have carried a Hyde [Amendment] type of abortion ban language for decades, as neither Republicans nor Democrats have had the votes to either expand or take away the existing restrictions. On the other hand, these conservatives pushing all these new riders don’t seem to care if the government shuts down if these bills pass. And that’s something new, right?

Kenen: Over abortion it’s something new, but they haven’t cared. I mean, they’ve shut down the government before.

Rovner: That’s true. The last time was over Obamacare.

Kenen: Right. And, which, the great irony is the one thing they — when they shut down the government because Obamacare was mandatory, not just discretionary funding, Obamacare went ahead anyway. So, I mean, minor details, but I think this is probably going to be an annual battle from now on. It depends how hard they fight for how long. And with some of these very conservative, ultra-conservative lawmakers, we’ve seen them dig in on abortion, on other issues like the defense appointees. So I think it’s going to be a messy October.

Rovner: Yeah, I went back and pulled some of my old clips. In the early 1990s I used to literally keep a spreadsheet, and I think that’s before we had Excel, of which bill, which of the appropriations bills had abortion language and what the status was of the fights, because they were the same fights year after year after year. And as I said, they kind of reached a rapprochement at one point, or not even a rapprochement — neither side could move what was already there. At some point, they kind of stopped trying, although we have seen liberals the last few years try to make a run at the actual, the original Hyde Amendment that bans federal funding for most abortions — that’s in the HHS bill — and unsuccessfully. They have not had the votes to do that. Presumably, Republicans don’t have the votes now to get any of these — at least certainly not in the Senate — to get any of these new riders in. But as we point out, they could definitely keep the government closed for a while over it. I mean, in the Clinton administration, President [Bill] Clinton actually had to swallow a bunch of new riders because either it was that or keep the government closed. So that’s kind of how they’ve gotten in there, is that one side has sort of pushed the other to the brink. You know, everybody seems to assume at this point that we are cruising towards a shutdown on Oct. 1. Does anybody think that we’re not?

Kenen: I mean, I’m not on the Hill anymore, but I certainly expect a shutdown. I don’t know how long it lasts or how you resolve it. And I — even more certain we’ll have one next year, which, the same issues will be hot buttons five weeks before the elections. So whatever happens this year is likely to be even more intense next year, although, you know, next year’s far away and the news cycle’s about seven seconds. So, you know, I think this could be an annual fight and for some time to come, and some years will be more intense than others. And you can create a deal about something else. And, you know, the House moderates are — there are not many moderates — but they’re sort of more traditional conservatives. And there’s a split in the Republican Party in the House, and we don’t know who’s going to fold when, and we don’t — we haven’t had this kind of a showdown. So we don’t really know how long the House will hold out, because some of the more moderate lawmakers who are — they’re all up for reelection next year. I mean, some of them don’t agree. Some of are not as all or nothing on abortion as the —

Rovner: Well, there are what, a dozen and a half Republicans who are in districts that President Biden won who do not want to vote on any of these things and have made it fairly clear to their leadership that they do not want to vote on any of these things. But obviously the conservatives do.

Kenen: And they’ve been public about that. They’ve said it. I mean, we’re not guessing. Some of them spoke up and said, you know, leave it to the states. And that’s what the court decided. And they don’t want to nationalize this even further than it’s nationalized. And I think, you know, when you have the Freedom Caucus taking out Marjorie Taylor Greene, I mean, I have no idea what’s next.

Rovner: Yeah, things are odd. Well, I want to mention one more abortion story this week that I read in the newsletter “Abortion, Every Day,” by Jessica Valenti. And shoutout here: If you’re interested in this issue and you don’t subscribe, you’re missing out. I will include the link in the show notes. The story’s about Texas and the exam to become a board-certified obstetrician-gynecologist. The board that conducts the exam is based in Dallas and has been for decades, and Texas is traditionally where this test has been administered. During the pandemic, the exam was given virtually because nothing was really in person. But this year, if a doctor wants to become board-certified, he or she will have to travel to Texas this fall. And a lot of OB-GYNs don’t want to do that, for fairly obvious reasons, like they are afraid of getting arrested and sent to prison because of Texas’ extreme anti-abortion laws. And yikes, really, this does not seem to be an insignificant legal risk here for doctors who have been performing abortions in other states. This is quite the dilemma, isn’t it?

Karlin-Smith: Well, the other thing I thought was interesting about — read part of that piece — is just, she was pointing out that you might not just want to advertise in a state where a lot of people are anti-abortion that all of these people who perform abortions are all going to be at the same place at the same time. So it’s not just that they’re going to be in Texas. Like, if anybody wants to go after them, they know exactly where they are. So it can create, if nothing else, just like an opportunity for big demonstrations or interactions that might disrupt kind of the normal flow of the exam-taking.

Kenen: Or violence. Most people who are anti-abortion are obviously not violent, but we have seen political violence in this country before. And you just need one person, which, you know, we seem to have plenty of people who are willing to shoot at other people. I thought it was an excellent piece. I mean, I had not come across that before until you sent it around, and there’s a solution — you know, like, if you did it virtually before — and I wasn’t clear, or maybe I just didn’t pay attention: Was this certification or also recertification?

Rovner: No, this was just certification. Recertification’s separate. So these are these are young doctors who want to become board-certified for the first time.

Kenen: But the recertification issues will be similar. And this is a yearly — I mean, I don’t see why they just don’t give people the option of doing it virtual.

Rovner: But we’ll see if they back down. But you know, I had the same thought that Sarah did. It’s like, great, let’s advertise that everybody’s going to be in one place at one time, you know, taking this exam. Well, we’ll see how that one plays out. Well, finally this week, building on last week’s discussion on health and climate change and on drug shortages, a tornado in Rocky Mount, North Carolina, seriously damaged a giant Pfizer drug storage facility, potentially worsening several different drug shortages. Sarah, I remember when the hurricane in Puerto Rico seemed to light a fire under the FDA and the drug industry about the dangers of manufacturing being too centralized in one place. Now we have to worry about storage, too? Are we going to end up, like, burying everything underground in Fort Knox?

Karlin-Smith: I think there’s been a focus even since before [Hurricane] Maria, but that certainly brought up that there’s a lack of redundancy in U.S. medical supply chains and, really, global supply chains. It’s not so much that they need to be buried, you know, that we need bunkers. It’s just that — Pfizer had to revise the numbers, but I think the correct number was that that facility produces about 8% of the sterile kind of injectables used in the U.S. health system, 25% of all Pfizer’s — it’s more like each company or the different plants that produce these drugs, it needs to be done in more places so that if you have these severe weather events in one part of the country, there’s another facility that’s also producing these drugs or has storage. So I don’t know that these solutions need to be as extreme as you brought up. But I think the problem has been that when solutions to drug shortages have come up in Congress, they tend to focus on FDA authorities or things that kind of nibble around the edges of this issue, and no one’s ever really been able to address some of the underlying economic tensions here and the incentives that these companies have to invest in redundancy, invest in better manufacturing quality, and so forth. Because at the end of the day these are often some of the oldest and cheapest drugs we have, but they’re not necessarily actually the easiest to produce. While oftentimes we’re talking about very expensive, high-cost drugs here, this may be a case where we have to think about whether we’ve let the prices drop too low and that’s sort of keeping a market that works if everything’s going perfectly well but then leads to these shortages and other problems in health care.

Rovner: Yeah, the whole just-in-time supply chain. Well, before we leave this, Anna, since you’re our expert on this, particularly international manufacturing, I mean, has sort of what’s been happening domestically lit a fire under anybody who’s also worried about some of these, you know, overseas plants not living up to their safety requirements?

Edney: Well, I think there are these scary things happen like a tornado or hurricane and everybody is kind of suddenly paying attention. But I think that the decision-makers in the White House or on Capitol Hill have been paying attention a little bit longer. We’ve seen these cancer — I mean, for a long time not getting anything done, as Sarah mentioned — but recently, it’s sort of I think the initial spark there was these cancer drug shortages that, you know, people not being able to get their chemo. And that was from an overseas factory; that was from a factory in India that had a lot of issues, including shredding all of their quality testing documents and throwing them in a truck, trying to get it out of there before the FDA inspectors could even see it.

Kenen: That’s always very reassuring.

Edney: It is. Yeah. It makes you feel really good. And one bag did not make it out of the plant in time, so they just threw acid on it instead of letting FDA inspectors look at it. So it’s definitely building in this tornado. And what might come out of it if there are a lot of shortages, I haven’t seen huge concern yet from the FDA on that front. But I think that it’s something that just keeps happening. It’s not letting up. And, you know, my colleagues did a really good story yesterday. There’s a shortage of a certain type of penicillin you give to pregnant people who have syphilis. If you pass syphilis on to your baby, the baby can die or be born with a lot of issues — it’s not like if an adult gets syphilis — and they’re having to ration it, and adults aren’t getting treated fully for syphilis because the babies need it more so, and so this is like a steady march that just keeps going on. And there’s so many issues with the industry, sort of how it’s set up, what Sarah was talking about, that we haven’t seen anybody really be able to touch yet.

Rovner: We will continue to stay on top of it, even if nobody else does. Well, that is this week’s news. Now we will play my interview with KFF’s Céline Gounder, and then we will come back and do our extra credit. I am pleased to welcome back to the podcast Dr. Céline Gounder, KFF senior fellow and editor-at-large for public health, as well as an infectious disease specialist and epidemiologist in New York and elsewhere. Céline is here today to tell us about the second season of her podcast, “Epidemic,” which tells the story of the successful effort to eradicate smallpox and explores whether public health can accomplish such big things ever again. Céline, thank you for joining us.

Céline Gounder: It’s great to be here, Julie.

Rovner: So how did you learn about the last steps in the journey to end smallpox, and why did you think this was a story worth telling broadly now?

Gounder: Well, this is something I actually studied back when I was in college in the ’90s, and I did my senior thesis in college on polio eradication, and this was in the late ’90s, and we have yet to eradicate polio, which goes to show you how difficult it is to eradicate an infectious disease. And in the course of doing that research, I was an intern at the World Health Organization for a summer and then continued to do research on it during my senior year. I also learned a lot about smallpox eradication. I got to meet a lot of the old leaders of that effort, folks like D.A. Henderson and Ciro de Quadros. And fast-forward to the present day: I think coming out of covid we’re unfortunately not learning what at least I think are the lessons of that pandemic. And I think sometimes it’s easier to go back in time in history, and that helps to depoliticize things, when people’s emotions are not running as high about a particular topic. And my thought was to go back and look at smallpox: What are the lessons from that effort, a successful effort, and also to make sure to get that history while we still have some of those leaders with us today.

Rovner: Yes, you’re singing my song here. I noticed the first episode is called “The Goddess of Smallpox.” Is there really a goddess of smallpox?

Gounder: There is: Shitala Mata. And the point of this episode was really twofold. One was to communicate the importance of understanding local culture and beliefs, not to dismiss these as superstitions, but really as ways of adapting to what was, in this case, a very centuries-long reality of living with smallpox. And the way people thought about it was that in some ways it was a curse, but in some ways it was also a blessing. And understanding that dichotomy is also important, whether it’s with smallpox or other infectious diseases. It’s important to understand that when you’re trying to communicate about social and public health interventions.

Rovner: Yeah, because I think people don’t understand that public health is so unique to each place. I feel like in the last 50 years, even through HIV and other infectious diseases, the industrialized world still hasn’t learned very well how to deal with developing countries in terms of cultural sensitivity and the need for local trust. Why is this a lesson that governments keep having to relearn?

Gounder: Well, I would argue we don’t even do it well in our own country. And I think it’s because we think of health in terms of health care, not public health, in the United States. And that also implies a very biomedical approach to health issues. And I think the mindset here is very much, oh, well, once you have the biomedical tools — the vaccines, the diagnostics, the drugs — problem solved. And that’s not really solving the problem in a pandemic, where much of your challenge is really social and political and economic and cultural. And so if you don’t think about it in those terms, you’re really going to have a flat-footed response.

Rovner: So what should we have learned from the smallpox eradication effort that might have helped us deal with covid or might help us in the future deal with the next pandemic?

Gounder: Well, I think one side of this is really understanding what the local culture was, spending time with people in community to build trust. I think we came around to understanding it in part, in some ways, in some populations, in some geographies, but unfortunately, I think it was very much in the crisis and not necessarily a long-term concerted effort to do this. And that I think is concerning because we will face other epidemics and pandemics in the future. So, you know, how do you lose trust? How do you build trust? I think that’s a really key piece. Another big one is dreaming big. And Dr. Bill Foege — he was one of the leaders of smallpox eradication, went on to be the director of the CDC [Centers for Disease Control and Prevention] under President [Jimmy] Carter — one of the pieces of advice he’s given to me as a mentor over the years is you’ve got to be almost foolishly optimistic about getting things done, and don’t listen to the cynics and pessimists. Of course, you want to be pragmatic and understand what will or won’t work, but to take on such huge endeavors as eradicating smallpox, you do have to be very optimistic and remind yourself every day that this is something you can do if you put your mind to it.

Rovner: I noticed, at least in the first couple of episodes that I’ve listened to, the media doesn’t come out of this looking particularly good. You’re both a journalist and a medical expert. What advice do you have for journalists trying to cover big public health stories like this, like covid, like things that are really important in how you communicate this to the public?

Gounder: Well, I think one is try to be hyperlocal in at least some of your reporting. I think one mistake during the pandemic was having this very top-down perspective of “here is what the CDC says” or “here is what the FDA says” or whomever in D.C. is saying, and that doesn’t really resonate with people. They want to see their own experiences reflected in the reporting and they want to see people from their community, people they trust. And so I think that is something that we should do better at. And unfortunately, we’re also somewhat hampered in doing so because there’s been a real collapse of local journalism in most of the country. So it really does fall to places like KFF Health News, for example, to try to do some of that important reporting.

Rovner: We will all keep at it. Céline Gounder, thank you so much for joining us. You can find Season 2 of “Epidemic,” called “Eradicating Smallpox,” wherever you get your podcasts.

Gounder: Thanks, Julie.

Rovner: OK, we’re back. It’s time for our extra credit segment. That’s when we each recommend a story we read this week we think you should read too. As always, don’t worry if you miss it. We will post the links on the podcast page at kffhealthnews.org and in our show notes on your phone or other mobile device. Sarah, why don’t you go first this week?

Karlin-Smith: Sure. I took a look at a piece from Brenda Goodman at CNN called “They Took Blockbuster Drugs for Weight Loss and Diabetes. Now Their Stomachs Are Paralyzed,” and it’s a really good deep dive into — people probably have heard of Ozempic, Wegovy — these what are called GLP-1 drugs that have been used for diabetes. And we’ve realized in higher doses even for people without diabetes, they often are very helpful at losing weight, that that’s partially because they slow the passage of food through your stomach. And there are questions about whether for some people that is leading to stomach paralysis or other extreme side effects. And I think it’s a really interesting deep dive into the complicated world of figuring out, Is this caused by the drug? Is it caused by other conditions that people have? And then how should you counsel people about whether they should receive the drugs and the benefits outweighing the risks? So I think it’s like just a good thing for people to read when you sort of hear all this hype about a product and how great they must be, that it’s always a little bit more complicated than that. And it also brought up another aspect of it, which is how these drugs may impact people who are going to get surgery and anesthesia and just the importance of communicating this to your doctor so they know how to appropriately handle the drugs. Because if you still have food content in your stomach during a surgery, that can be extremely dangerous. And I thought just that aspect alone of this story is really interesting, because they talk about people maybe not wanting to even let their doctors know they’re on these drugs because of stigma surrounding weight loss. And just again, once you get a new medicine that might end up being taken by a lot of people, the complications or, you know, there’s the dynamics of how it impacts other parts of medicine, and we need to adjust.

Rovner: Yeah. And I think the other thing is, you know, we know these drugs are safe because people with diabetes have been taking them for, what, six or seven years. But inevitably, anytime you get a drug that lots more people take, then you start to see the outlier side effects, which, if it’s a lot of people, can affect a lot of people. Joanne.

Kenen: I have a piece from FERN, which is the Food & Environment Reporting Network and in partnership with Yale Environ 360, and it’s by Gabriel Popkin. And it’s called “Can Biden’s Climate-Smart Agriculture Program Live Up to the Hype?” And I knew nothing about smart agriculture, which is why I found this so interesting. So, this is an intersection of climate change and food, which is obviously also a factor in climate change. And there’s a lot of money from the Biden administration for farmers to use new techniques that are more green-friendly because as we all know, you know, beef and dairy, things that we thought were just good for us — maybe not beef so much — but, like, they’re really not so good for the planet we live on. So can you do things like, instead of using fertilizer, plant cover crops in the offseason? I mean, there’s a whole list of things that — none of us are farmers, but there’s also questions about are they going to work? Is it greenwashing? Is it stuff that will work but not in the time frame that this program is funding? How much of it’s going to go to big agribusiness, and how much of it is going to go to small farmers? So it’s one hand, it’s another. You know, there’s a lot of low-tech practices. We’re going to have to do absolutely everything we can on climate. We’re going to have to use a variety of — you know, very large toolkit. So it was interesting to me reading about these things that you can do that make agriculture, you know, still grow our food without hurting the planet, but also a lot of questions about, you know, is this really a solution or not? But, you know, I didn’t know anything about it. So it was a very interesting read.

Rovner: And boy, you think the drug companies are influential on Capitol Hill. Try going with big agriculture. Anna.

Edney: I’m going to toot my own horn for a second here —

Rovner: Please.

Edney: — and do one of my mini-investigations that I did, “Mineral Sunscreens Have Potential Hidden Dangers, Too.” So there’s been a lot of talk: Use mineral sunscreen to save the environment or, you know, for your own health potentially. But they’re white, they’re very thick. And, you know, people don’t want to look quite that ghostly. So what’s been happening lately is they’ve been getting better. But what I found out is a lot of that is due to a chemical — that is what people are trying to move away from, is chemical sunscreens — but the sunscreen-makers are using this chemical called butyloctyl salicylate. And you can read the article for kind of the issues with it. I guess the main one I would point out is, you know, I talked to the Environmental Working Group because they do these verifications of sunscreens based on their look at how good are they for your health, and a couple of their mineral ones had this ingredient in it. So when I asked them about it, they said, Oh, whoops; like, we do actually need to revisit this because it is a chemical that is not recommended for children under 4 to be using on their bodies. So there’s other issues with it, too — just the question of whether you’re really being reef-safe if it’s in there, and other things as well.

Rovner: It is hard to be safe and be good to the planet. My story this week is by Amy Littlefield of The Nation magazine, and it’s called “The Anti-Abortion Movement Gets a Dose of Post-Roe Reality.” It’s about her visit to the annual conference of the National Right to Life Committee, which for decades was the nation’s leading anti-abortion organization, although it’s been eclipsed by some others more recently. The story includes a couple of eye-opening observations, including that the anti-abortion movement is surprised that all those bans didn’t actually reduce the number of abortions by very much. As we know, women who are looking for abortions normally will find a way to get them, either in state or out of state or underground or whatever. And we also learned in this story that some in the movement are willing to allow rape and incest exceptions in abortion bills, which they have traditionally opposed, because they want to use those as sweeteners for bills that would make it easier to enforce bans, stronger bans, things like the idea in Texas of allowing individual citizens to use civil lawsuits and forbidding local prosecutors from declining to prosecute abortion cases. We’re seeing that in some sort of blue cities in red states. It’s a really interesting read and I really recommend it. OK. That is our show for this week. As always, if you enjoyed the podcast, you can subscribe where ever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left us a review; that helps other people find us, too. Special thanks, as always, to our producer, Francis Ying. Also as always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org. Or you can tweet me. I’m @jrovner, and I’m on Bluesky and Threads. Joanne.

Kenen: @joannekenen1 at Threads.

Rovner: Sarah.

Karlin-Smith: I’m @SarahKarlin or @sarah.karlinsmith, depending on which of these many social media platforms you’re looking at, though.

Rovner: Anna.

Edney: @annaedney on Twitter and @anna_edneyreports on Threads.

Rovner: You can always find us here next week where we will always be in your podcast feed. Until then, be healthy.

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Julie Rovner is chief Washington correspondent and host of KFF Health News’ weekly health policy news podcast, “What the Health?” A noted expert on health policy issues, Julie is the author of the critically praised reference book “Health Care Politics and Policy A to Z,” now in its third edition.

2023 will likely be remembered as the summer Arizona sizzled, Vermont got swamped, and nearly the entire Eastern Seaboard, along with huge swaths of the Midwest, choked on wildfire smoke from Canada. Still, none of that has been enough to prompt policymakers in Washington to act on climate issues.

Meanwhile, at a public court hearing, a group of women in Texas took the stand to share wrenching stories about their inability to get care for pregnancy complications, even though they should have been exempt from restrictions under the state’s strict abortion ban.

This week’s panelists are Julie Rovner of KFF Health News, Rachel Cohrs of Stat, Shefali Luthra of The 19th, and Alice Miranda Ollstein of Politico.

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Stat News

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Shefali Luthra
The 19th

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Alice Miranda Ollstein
Politico

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Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:

• Tensions over abortion access between the medical and legal communities are coming to the fore in the courts, as doctors beg for clarification about bans on the procedure — and conservative state officials argue that the law is clear enough. The risk of being hauled into court and forced to defend even medically justified care could be enough to discourage a doctor from providing abortion care.
• Conservative states are targeting a Biden administration effort to update federal privacy protections, which would make it more difficult for law enforcement to obtain information about individuals who travel outside a state where abortion is restricted for the procedure. Patient privacy is also under scrutiny in Nebraska, where a case involving a terminated pregnancy is further illuminating how willing tech companies like Meta are to share user data with authorities.
• And religious freedom laws are being cited in arguments challenging abortion bans, with plaintiffs alleging the restrictions infringe on their religious rights. The argument appears to have legs, as early challenges are being permitted to move forward in the courts.
• On Capitol Hill, key Senate Democrats are holding up the confirmation process of President Joe Biden’s nominee as director of the National Institutes of Health to press for stronger drug pricing reforms and an end to the revolving-door practice of government officials going to work for private industry.
• And shortages of key cancer drugs are intensifying concerns about drug supplies and drawing attention in Congress. But Republicans are skeptical about increasing the FDA’s authority — and supply-chain issues just aren’t that politically compelling.

Also this week, Rovner interviews Meena Seshamani, director of the Center for Medicare at the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services at the Department of Health and Human Services.

Plus, for “extra credit” the panelists suggest health policy stories they read this week that they think you should read, too:

Julie Rovner: Los Angeles Times’ “Opinion: Crushing Medical Debt Is Turning Americans Against Their Doctors,” by KFF Health News’ Noam N. Levey.

Rachel Cohrs: The New York Times’ “They Lost Their Legs. Doctors and Health Care Giants Profited,” by Katie Thomas, Jessica Silver-Greenberg, and Robert Gebeloff.

Alice Miranda Ollstein: The Atlantic’s “What Happened When Oregon Decriminalized Hard Drugs,” by Jim Hinch.

Shefali Luthra: KFF Health News’ “Medical Exiles: Families Flee States Amid Crackdown on Transgender Care,” by Bram Sable-Smith, Daniel Chang, Jazmin Orozco Rodriguez, and Sandy West.

Also mentioned in this week’s episode:

• Stat’s “From Rapid Cooling Body Bags to ‘Prescriptions’ for AC, Doctors Prepare for a Future of Extreme Heat,” by Karen Pennar.
• Politico’s “The Sleeper Legal Strategy That Could Topple Abortion Bans,” by Alice Miranda Ollstein.

click to open the transcript

Transcript: Let’s Talk About the Weather

KFF Health News’ ‘What the Health?’Episode Title: Let’s Talk About the WeatherEpisode Number: 306Published: July 20, 2023

[Editor’s note: This transcript, generated using transcription software, has been edited for style and clarity.]

Rovner: Hello and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Julie Rovner, chief Washington correspondent for KFF Health News. And I’m joined by some of the best and smartest health reporters in Washington. We’re taping this week on Thursday, July 20, at 10 a.m. As always, news happens fast and things might have changed by the time you hear this. So here we go. We are joined today via video conference by Alice Miranda Ollstein, of Politico.

Alice Miranda Ollstein: Hello.

Rovner: Rachel Cohrs, of Stat News.

Rachel Cohrs: Hi, everybody.

Rovner: And Shefali Luthra of The 19th.

Shefali Luthra: Hello.

Rovner: Later in this episode we’ll have my interview with Meena Seshamani, director of the Center for Medicare at the Center for Medicare & Medicaid Services at the Department of Health and Human Services. She has an update on drug price negotiations, Medicare Advantage payments, and more. But first, this week’s news. So let’s talk about the weather. Seriously, this summer of intense heat domes in the South and Southwest, flash floods in the East, and toxic air from Canadian wildfires almost everywhere below the border has advertised the dangers of climate change in a way scientists and journalists and policymakers could only dream about. The big question, though, is whether it will make any difference to the people who can actually do something about it. I hasten to point out here that in D.C., it’s normal — hot and humid for July, but nothing particularly out of the ordinary, especially compared to a lot of the rest of the country. Is anybody seeing anybody on the Hill who seems at the least alarmed by what’s going on?

Ollstein: Not other than those who normally speak out about these issues. You’re not seeing minds changed by this, even as the reports coming out, especially of the Southwest, are just devastating — I mean, especially for unhoused people, just dying. I was really interested in the story from Stat about doctors moving to start prescribing things to combat heat, like prescribing air conditioners, prescribing cooling packs and other things, really looking at heat as a medical issue and not just a feature of our lives that we have to deal with.

Rovner: Well, emergency rooms are full of patients. You can now burn yourself walking on the sidewalk in Arizona. You know, last summer was not a great summer for a lot of people, particularly in California and in western Canada. But this year, it’s like everywhere across the country, everybody’s having something that’s sort of, oh, a hundred-year something or a thousand-year something. And yet we just sort of continue on blithely.

Ollstein: And just quickly, what really hits me is how much of a vicious cycle it can create, because the more people use air conditioners, those give off heat and make the bigger situation worse. So making it better for yourself makes it worse for others. Same with driving. You know, the worse the weather is, the more people have to drive rather than bike or walk or take public transit. And so it gets into this vicious cycle that can make it worse for everyone and create these so-called heat islands in these cities.

Rovner: All right. Well, let us move on to a more familiar topic: abortion and reproductive health. In case you’re wondering why it’s hard to keep track of where abortion is legal, where it’s banned, and where it’s restricted, let’s talk about Iowa. When we last checked in, last week, state lawmakers had just passed a near-total ban after the state Supreme Court deadlocked over a previous ban and the Republican governor, Kim Reynolds, was poised to sign it. Then what happened?

Luthra: The governor signed the ban right as the hearing for the ban concluded in which Planned Parenthood and another abortion clinic in the state sued, arguing, right, that this is the exact same as the law that was just struck down and therefore should be struck down again. And this judge said that he wouldn’t rush to his ruling. He wanted to, you know, give it the time that it deserved so he wouldn’t be saying anything on Friday, which meant as soon as the law was signed, it took effect. It was in effect for maybe a little over 72 hours, essentially through the weekend. And then on Monday, the judge came and issued a ruling blocking the law. And even that is temporary, right? It only lasts as long as this case is proceeding. And one of the reasons Republicans came back and passed this ban is they are hopeful that something has changed and that this time around the state Supreme Court will let the six-week ban in Iowa stand, which really just would have quite significant implications for the Midwest, where it’s been kind of slower to restrict abortion than the South has been because of the role the courts have played in Ohio, in Iowa, blocking abortion bans, and we could very soon see restrictions in Iowa, in Indiana, potentially in Ohio, depending on how the election later this year goes. And it will look like a very different picture than it did even six months ago.

Rovner: And for the moment, abortion is legal in Iowa, right?

Luthra: Correct.

Rovner: Up to 20 weeks?

Luthra: Up to 20, 22, depending on how you count.

Rovner: But as you say, that could change any day. And it has changed from day to day as we’ve gone on. Well, if that’s not confusing enough, there are a couple of lawsuits that went to court in Texas and Missouri, and neither of them is actually challenging an abortion ban. In Texas, women who were pregnant and unable to get timely care for complications are suing to clarify the state’s abortion ban so patients don’t have to literally wait until they are dying to be treated. And in Missouri, there’s a fight between two state officials over how to describe what a proposed state ballot measure would do, honestly. So what’s the status of those two suits? Let’s start with Texas. That was quite a hearing yesterday.

Luthra: It is really devastating to watch. And the hearing continues today, Thursday. And we are hearing from these women who wanted to have their pregnancies, developed complications where they knew that the fetus would not be viable, could not get care in the state. One of them who came to the State of the Union earlier this year, she had to wait until she was septic before she could get care. Another woman traveled out of state. Another one had to give birth to a baby that died four hours after being born, and she knew that this baby wouldn’t live. And it’s really striking to watch just how obviously difficult it is for these women to relive this thing that happened to them, clearly one of the worst things in their lives, maybe the worst thing. And the state’s arguments are very interesting, too, because they appear to be trying to suggest that it is actually not that the law is unclear, but that doctors are just not doing their jobs and they should do, you know, the hard work of medicine by understanding what exceptions mean and interpreting laws that are always supposed to be a little ambiguous.

Ollstein: So when states were debating abortion bans and really Republicans were tying themselves in knots over this question of exemptions — How should the exemptions be worded? Should there be any exemptions at all? Who should they apply to? — a lot of folks on the left were yelling at the time that that’s the wrong conversation, that exemptions are unworkable; even if you say on paper that people can get an abortion in a medical emergency, it won’t work in practice. And this is really fodder for that argument. This is that argument playing out in real life, where there is a medical exemption on the books, and yet all of these women were not able to get the care they needed, and some have suffered permanent or somewhat permanent repercussions to their health and fertility going forward. As more states debate their own laws, and some states with bans have even tried to go back and clarify the exemptions and change them, I wonder how much this will impact those debates.

Rovner: Yeah, I mean, if you just say that doctors are being, you know, cowards basically by not providing this care, think of it from the doctor’s point of view, and now we see why hospital lawyers are getting involved. Even if there’s a legitimate medical reason, they could get dragged into court and have to pay tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees just to prove that their medical judgment was correct. You can kind of see why doctors are a little bit reluctant to do that.

Ollstein: And just to stress, these laws were not written by doctors. These laws were written by politicians, and they include language that medical groups have pointed out doesn’t translate to the actual practice of medicine. Some of these bans’ exceptions’ language use terms like irreversible, and they’re like, “That’s not something we say in medicine. That doesn’t fit with our training. We don’t think in terms of that.” Also, terms like life-threatening: It’s like, OK, well, is it imminently life-threatening? And even then, what does that mean? How close does someone need to be to losing their life in order to act?

Rovner: And pregnancy itself is life-threatening.

Ollstein: Right. Or something could be life-threatening in a longer-term way, you know, down the road. Other conditions like diabetes or cancer could be life-threatening even if it won’t kill you today or tomorrow. So this is a real battle where medicine meets law.

Rovner: Well, in Missouri, it’s obviously not nearly as dramatic, but it’s also — you can see how this is playing out in a lot of these states. This is basically a fight between the state attorney general and the state auditor over how much an abortion ban might end up costing the state. They’re really sort of fighting this as hard as they can. It’s basically to make it either more or less attractive to voters, right?

Ollstein: It’s similar to some of the gambits we saw in Michigan to keep the measure off the ballot or put it on the ballot in a way that some would say would be misleading to voters. So I think you’re seeing this more and more in these states after so many states, including pretty conservative states, voted in favor of abortion rights last year. You know, the right is afraid of that continuing to happen, and so they’re looking at all of these technical ways — through the courts, through the legislatures, whatever means they can — to influence the process. And Democrats cry that this is antidemocratic, not giving people a say. Republicans claim that they’re preventing big-money outside groups from influencing the process. And I think this is going to be a huge battle. Missouri and Ohio are up next in terms of voting. And after that, you have Florida and Nevada and a bunch of other states in the queue. And so this is going to continue to be something we’re discussing for a while.

Luthra: And to flag the case in Ohio, what’s happening there, right, is the state is having voters vote onto whether to make it harder to pass constitutional amendments. There’s an election in August that would raise the threshold to two-thirds. And what we know from all of the evidence why they don’t typically have August referenda in Ohio is because the turnout is very, very low, and they are expecting that to be very low. And they’ve made it explicit that the reason they want to make it harder to pass constitutional amendments is, in fact, the concern around Ohio’s proposed abortion protection.

Rovner: Of course, that’s what they said about Kansas last year, that people wouldn’t vote because it was in the summer, so — but this is a little bit more obtuse. This is whether or not you’re going to change the standard for passing constitutional change that would enshrine abortion. So, yeah, clearly —

Luthra: It’s hard to get people excited about votes on voting.

Rovner: Yeah, exactly. An underlying theme for most of this year has been efforts by states that restrict or ban abortion to try to prevent or at least keep tabs on patients who leave the state to obtain a procedure where it is legal. Attorneys general in a dozen and a half states are now protesting a Biden administration effort to protect such information under HIPAA, the medical records privacy provisions of the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act. Alice, you’ve written about this. What would the HIPAA update do, and why do the red states oppose it?

Ollstein: The HIPAA update, which was proposed in April, and comment closed in June, and so we’re basically waiting for a final rule — at some point, you know, it can take a while — but it would make it harder for either law enforcement or state officials to obtain medical information about someone seeking an abortion, either out of state or in state under one of these exemptions. This would sort of beef up those protections and require a subpoena or some form of court order in order to get that data. And you have sort of an interesting pattern playing out, which you’ve seen just throughout the Biden administration, where the Biden administration hems and haws and takes an action related to abortion rights and the left says it’s not good enough and the right says it’s wild overreach and unconstitutional and they’re going to sue. And so that’s what I was documenting in my story.

Rovner: Is it 18 red states saying —

Ollstein: Nineteen, yes, yeah.

Rovner: Nineteen red states saying that this is going too far.

Ollstein: They say they want to be able to obtain that data to see if people are breaking the law.

Rovner: Well, Shefali, you wrote this week about sort of a related topic, whether states can use text or social media messages as evidence of criminal activity. That sounds kind of chilling.

Luthra: Yeah, and this is, I think, a really interesting question. We saw it in this case in Nebraska, where a sentencing for one of the defendants is happening today in fact. And I want to be careful in how I talk about this because it concerns a pregnancy that was terminated in April of 2022, before Roe was even overturned. But it sort of offered this test case, this preview for: If you do have law enforcement going after people who have broken a state’s abortion laws, how might they go about doing that? What statutes do they use to prosecute? And what information do they have access to? And the answer is potentially quite a lot. Organizations like Meta and Google are quite cooperative when it comes to government requests for user data. They are quite willing to give over history of message exchanges, history of your searches, or of, you know, where you were tracked on Google Maps. And the bigger question there is how likely are we to see individual prosecutors, individual states, going after patients and their families, their friends for breaking abortion laws? Right now, there’s been some hesitation to do that because the politics are so terrible. But if they do go in that direction, people’s internet user data is, in most states, unprotected. There is no federal law protecting, you know, your Facebook messages. And it could be quite a useful piece of information for people trying to build a case, which should raise concern for anyone trying to access care.

Rovner: Yeah, this is exactly why women were taking their period-tracking apps off of their phones, to worry about the protection of quite personal information. Well, finally this week on the abortion front, we have talked so, so much about how conservative Christians complain that various abortion and even birth control laws violate their religious beliefs. Well, now representatives of several other religions, including Judaism and even some of the more liberal branches of Christianity, say that abortion bans violate their right to practice their religion. This is going on in a bunch of different states. I think the first one we talked about was Florida, I think a year ago. Are any of these lawsuits going anywhere? Do we expect this to end up before the Supreme Court at some point?

Ollstein: So most of them are in state court, not federal. I mean, it’s always possible it could go to the Supreme Court. A couple of them are in federal court and a couple of them have already reached the appeals court level. But the experts I talked to for my story on this said this is mainly going to have an impact in state courts and how they interpret state constitutions. A lot of states have stronger language around religious protections than the federal Constitution, including some laws that pretty conservative state leaders passed in the last few years, and I doubt they expected that same language would be cited to defend abortion rights. But here we are. And yeah, a Missouri court recently ruled that the lawsuit can go forward, the religious challenge to the state’s abortion ban. It’s a coalition of a bunch of different faith leaders bringing that challenge. And in Indiana, they won a preliminary ruling on that case. And there are others pending in Kentucky, Florida, a bunch of other states. And so, yeah, I think this definitely has legs.

Rovner: Yeah, we’re all learning an awful lot about court procedure in lots of different states. Let us move to Capitol Hill, where Congress is in its annual July race to the August recess. Seriously, this is actually a month in which Congress typically does get a lot done. Maybe not so much this year. One perhaps unexpected holdup in the U.S. Senate is where the confirmation of Monica Bertagnolli, President Biden’s nominee to head the National Institutes of Health, is being held up not by a Republican but by two Democrats: health committee chair Bernie Sanders, another member of the committee, Elizabeth Warren. Rachel, what is going on with this?

Cohrs: Sen. Bernie Sanders has long wanted the Biden administration to be more aggressive on drug pricing. And there is one issue in particular that Sen. Sanders has wanted the NIH specifically to use to challenge drug companies’ patents or at least put some pricing protections in there for drugs that are developed using publicly funded research. And the laws that the NIH potentially could use to challenge these companies for high-priced medications have never been used in this way. And Sen. Sanders is using his bully pulpit and the main leverage he has, which is over nominations, to get the White House’s attention. And I think the White House’s position here is that they have done more than any administration in the past 20 years to lower drug prices.

Rovner: Which is true.

Cohrs: It is true. And — but Sen. Sanders still is not satisfied with that and wants to see commitments from the White House and from NIH to do more.

Rovner: And Sen. Elizabeth Warren.

Cohrs: Sen. Elizabeth Warren, yes, who my colleague Sarah Owermohle first reported had some concerns over the revolving door at NIH and wanted a commitment that the nominee wouldn’t go to lobby or work for a large pharmaceutical company for four years after leaving the position, and I don’t know that she’s agreed to that yet. So I don’t see where this resolves. It’s tough, because we’re looking so close to an election, and I think there are big questions about what breaks this logjam. But it certainly has slowed down what looked like a very smooth and noncontroversial nomination process.

Rovner: Yeah, I mean, obviously, you know, we’ve seen many, many times over the years nominations held up for other reasons — I mean, basically using them as leverage to get some policy aim. It’s more rare that you see it on the president’s own party but obviously, you know, not completely unprecedented. Certainly in this case we have a lot of things to be worked out there. Well, Sen. Sanders also seems to be threatening the reauthorization of one of his very pet programs, the bipartisanly popular community health centers. His staff this week put out a draft bill and announced a markup before sharing it with Republicans on the committee. Now Ranking Member Bill Cassidy, who also supports the community health centers program — almost everybody in Congress supports the community health centers program — Cassidy complains there’s no budget score, that the bill includes programs from outside the committee’s jurisdiction, and other details that can be very important. Is Sanders trying to make things partisan on purpose, or is this just sloppy staff work?

Cohrs: Honestly, I can’t answer that question for you, but I don’t think that it’s going to result in a productive outcome for the community health centers. And I think we have in recent years seen significant cooperation between the chair and ranking member, but with Lamar Alexander, with Richard Burr, with Patty Murray, you know, we have seen a lot civility on this committee in the recent past, and that appears to have ended. And I think Sen. Cassidy’s response that he hadn’t seen the legislation publicly was, I think, telling. We don’t usually see that kind of public fighting from a committee chair.

Rovner: He put out a press release.

Cohrs: Right, put out a press release. Yeah. This is not what we usually see in these committees. And it is true that Sen. Sanders’ bill is so much more money than I think is usually given to community health centers in this reauthorization process. I think it’s true that the bill that he dropped touches issues that would anger almost every other stakeholder in the health care system. And I don’t think Sen. Cassidy quite envisioned that. And he introduced his own bill that would have introduced —

Rovner: Cassidy introduced his own bill.

Cohrs: Yes, Sen. Cassidy introduced his own bill last week that would have continued on with what the House Energy and Commerce Committee had passed unanimously earlier this summer to give community health centers a more modest boost in funding for two years.

Rovner: And obviously, there’s some urgency to this because the authorization runs out at the end of September and now we’re in July and they’re going to go away for August. So this is obviously something else that we’re going to need to keep a fairly close eye on. Well, meanwhile, elsewhere, as in at the Senate Finance Committee, which oversees Medicare and Medicaid, we’re starting to see legislation to regulate PBMs — pharmacy benefit managers — or are we? Rachel, we’ve come at this several times this year. How close are we getting?

Cohrs: We’re getting closer. And I think that two key committees are really feeling the heat to get their proposals out there before the end of the year. The first, like you mentioned, was the Senate Finance Committee, which is planning a markup next week, right before senators leave for August recess. They’ve asked for feedback from CBO [the Congressional Budget Office] around the end of August recess so that they’ll be ready to go. But I think it’s no secret that their delay in marking anything up or introducing anything has slowed down this process. And in the House, I know the Ways and Means Committee is trying to put together their own proposal and find time for a markup, whereas the House Energy and Commerce Committee, which also has jurisdiction over many of these issues, is frustrated, because they got their bill introduced, they had all the full regular order of subcommittee and then full committee hearings and then markups, got this bill unanimously out of their committee, and now everyone’s kind of waiting around on these two committees with jurisdiction over the Medicare program to see what they’re going to put together before any larger package can be compiled.

Rovner: Well, you know things are heating up when you start seeing PBM ads all over cable news. So even if you don’t understand what the issue is, you know that it’s definitely in play on Capitol Hill. Well, while we’re on the subject of drug prices, we have another lawsuit trying to block Medicare’s drug price negotiation, this one filed by Johnson & Johnson. Why so many? Wouldn’t these drug companies have more clout if they got together on one big suit, or is there some strategy here to spread it out and hope somebody finds a sympathetic judge?

Ollstein: Yes, I think the latter is exactly what they’re doing, because if they were to all kind of band together, then it would be putting all their eggs in one basket. And this way we see most of the companies have filed in different jurisdictions. I think Johnson & Johnson did file in the same court as Bristol Myers Squibb did, so I think it’s not a perfect trend. But generally what we are seeing is that the trade groups like the [U.S.] Chamber of Commerce and PhRMA [the Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America] kind of have their own arguments that they’re making in different venues. The drug manufacturers themselves have their own arguments that they’re making in their own venues, and they’re spreading out across the country in some typically more liberal courts and circuits and some more conservative. But I think that it’s important to note that the Chamber of Commerce so far is the only one that’s asked for a preliminary injunction, in Ohio. That is kind of the motion that, if it’s approved, could potentially put a stop to this program even beginning to go into effect. So they’ve asked for that by Oct. 1.

Rovner: And remember, I guess we’re supposed to see the first 10 drugs from negotiation in September, right?

Cohrs: By Sept. 1, yes.

Rovner: By Sept. 1.

Cohrs: Pretty imminently here.

Rovner: Also happening soon. Well, before we stop with the news this week, I do want to talk briefly about drug shortages. This has come up from time to time, both before and during the pandemic, obviously, when we had supply chain issues. But it seems like something new is happening. Some of these shortages seem to be coming because generic makers of some drugs just don’t find them lucrative enough to continue to make them. Now we’re looking at some major shortages of key cancer drugs, literally causing doctors to have to choose who lives and who dies. Are there any proposals on Capitol Hill for addressing this? It’s kind of flying below the radar, but it’s a pretty big deal.

Cohrs: I think we’ve seen Congressman Frank Pallone make this his pet issue in the reauthorization of PAHPA [Pandemic and All-Hazards Preparedness Act], which is the pandemic preparedness bill, which also expires on Sept. 30. So, you know, they have a full plate.

Rovner: Which we will talk about next week because they’re marking it up today.

Cohrs: Exactly. Yes. So but what we have seen is that Democrats in the House Energy and Commerce Committee have made this a top priority to at least have something on drug shortages in PAHPA. And I think my colleague John Wilkerson watched a hearing this week and noted that the chair of the committee, Cathy McMorris Rodgers, seemed more open to adding something than she had been in the past. But again, I think it’s kind of uncertain what we’ll see. And Sen. Bernie Sanders did add a couple of drug shortage policies to his version of PAHPA in the HELP Committee [Senate Committee on Health, Education, Labor and Pensions]. So I think we are seeing some movement on at least some policies to address it. But the problem is that the supply chain is not sexy and Republicans are not crazy about the idea of giving the FDA more authority. I think there is just so much skepticism of these public health agencies. It’s a hard systemic issue to crack. So I think we may see something, but it’s unclear whether any of this would provide any immediate relief.

Rovner: Everybody agrees that there’s a problem and nobody agrees on how to solve it. Welcome to Capitol Hill. OK, that is this week’s news. Now we will play my interview with Medicare chief Meena Seshamani, and then we’ll come back and do our extra credit. I am pleased to welcome to the podcast Meena Seshamani, deputy administrator and director of the Center for Medicare at the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services at the Department of Health and Human Services. That must be a very long business card.

Meena Seshamani: [laughs]

Rovner: Translated, that means she’s basically in charge of the Medicare program for the federal government. She comes to this job with more than the requisite experience. She is a physician, a head and neck surgeon in fact, a PhD health economist, a former hospital executive, and a former top administrator there at HHS. Meena, welcome to “What the Health?” We are so happy to have you.

Seshamani: Thank you so much for having me, Julie.

Rovner: So, our podcast listeners will know, because we talk about it so much, that the biggest Medicare story of 2023 is the launch of a program to negotiate prescription drug prices and hopefully bring down the price of some of those drugs. Can you give us a quick update on how that’s going and when patients can expect to start to see results?

Seshamani: Absolutely. The new prescription drug law, the Inflation Reduction Act, really has made historic changes to the Medicare program. And to your point, people are seeing those results right now. There is now a $35 cap on what someone will pay out-of-pocket for a month’s supply of covered insulin at the pharmacy, which is huge. I’ve met with people all over the country. Sometimes people are spending up to $400 for a month’s supply of this lifesaving medication. Also, vaccines at no cost out-of-pocket. And a lot of this leads to what you’re mentioning with the drug negotiation program, a historic opportunity for Medicare to negotiate drugs. In January, we put out a timeline of the various pieces that we’re putting in place to stand up this negotiation program. Along that timeline, we have released guidance that describes the process that we will undergo to negotiate, what we’ll think about as we’re engaging in negotiation. And the first 10 drugs for negotiation that are selected will be announced on Sept. 1. And that will then lead into the negotiation process.

Rovner: And as we’ve mentioned — I think it was on last week’s podcast — there’s a lot of lawsuits that are trying to stop this. Are you confident that you’re going to be able to overcome this and keep this train on the tracks?

Seshamani: Well, we don’t generally comment on the lawsuits. I will say that we are implementing this law in the most thoughtful manner possible. From the day that the law was enacted, we have been meeting with drug manufacturers, health plans, patient groups, health care providers, you know, experts in the field, to really understand the complexity of the drug space and what we can do with this opportunity to really improve things, improve access and affordability to have innovative therapies for the cures that people need.

Rovner: Well, while we are on that subject, we — not just Medicare, but society at large — is facing down a gigantic conundrum. The good news is that we’re finally starting to see drugs that can treat or possibly cure such devastating ailments as Alzheimer’s disease and obesity. But those drugs are currently so expensive, and the population that could benefit from them is so large, they could basically bankrupt the entire health care system. How is Medicare approaching that? Obviously, in the Alzheimer’s space, that could be a very big deal.

Seshamani: Well, Julie, we are committed to helping ensure that people have timely access to innovative treatments that can lead to improved care and better outcomes. And in doing this, we take into account what the Medicare law enables coverage for and what the evidence shows. So with Alzheimer’s, CMS underwent a national coverage determination. And consistent with that, Medicare is covering the drug when a physician and clinical team participates in the collection of evidence about how these drugs work in the real world, also known as a registry. And this is very important because it will enable us to gather more information on patient outcomes as we continue to see innovations in this space. And you mentioned obesity. In the Medicare law, there is a carve-out for drugs for weight loss.

Rovner: A carve-out meaning you can’t cover them.

Seshamani: Correct. It says that the Medicare Part D prescription drug program will not cover drugs for weight loss. So we are looking at the increasing evidence. And for example, where there is a drug that is used for diabetes, for example, you know, then it can certainly be covered. And this is an area that we are continuing to partner with our colleagues in the FDA on and that we’d like to partner with the broader community to continue to build the evidence base around benefits for the Medicare population as we continue to evaluate where we want to make sure that people have access.

Rovner: But are you thinking sort of generally about what to do about these drugs that cost sometimes tens of thousands of dollars a year, hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, that half the population could benefit from? I mean, that cannot happen, right, financially?

Seshamani: Well, Julie, this is where the new provisions in the new drug law really come into play. Thinking from access for people for the high-cost drugs, I think we all know what a financial strain the high cost of drugs have created for our nation’s seniors, where now, in 2025, there will be a $2,000 out-of-pocket cap, that people will not have to pay out-of-pocket more than $2,000, which enables them to access drugs. And on the other side, as we talked about with drug negotiation, where for drugs that have been in the market for seven years or 11 years, if they are high-cost drugs, they could potentially be selected for negotiation where we can then, you know, as we laid out in the guidance that we put out, look at what is the benefit that this drug provides to a population? What are the therapeutic alternatives? And then also consider things like what’s the cost of producing that drug and distributing it? How much federal support was given for the research and development of that drug? And how much is the total R & D costs? So I think that there are several tools that we’ve been given in the Inflation Reduction Act that demonstrate how we are continuing to think about how we can ensure that Medicare is delivering for people now and in the future.

Rovner: Well, speaking of things that are popular but also expensive, let’s talk briefly about Medicare Advantage. More and more beneficiaries are opting for private plans over traditional, fee-for-service Medicare. But the health plans have figured out lots of ways to game the system to make large profits basically at taxpayers’ expense. Is there a long-term plan for Medicare Advantage or are we just going to continue to play whack-a-mole, trying to plug the loopholes that the plans keep finding?

Seshamani: You know, as now we have 50% of the population in Medicare Advantage, Medicare Advantage plays a critical role in advancing our vision for the Medicare program around advancing health equity, expanding access to care, driving innovation, and enabling us to be good stewards of the Medicare dollar. And that vision that we have is reflected in all of the policies that we have put forward to date. And I might add that those policies really have been informed by engagement with everyone who’s interested in Medicare Advantage. We did a request for comment and got more than 4,000 suggestions from people. This has now come out in recent policies like cracking down on misleading marketing practices so that people can get the plan that best suits their needs; ensuring clear rules of the road for prior authorization and utilization management so we can make sure that people are accessing the medically necessary care that they need; things like improving network adequacy, particularly in behavioral health, so people can access the health care providers in the networks of the plans; and then the work that we’re doing around payment, to make sure that we’re paying accurately, updating the years that we use for data, looking at the coding patterns of Medicare Advantage. And again, this is all work that is important to make sure that the program is really serving the people in the Medicare program.

Rovner: So, as you know, we’ve done big investigative projects here at KFF Health News about both medical debt and nonprofit hospitals not living up to their responsibilities to the community. As the largest single payer of hospitals, what is Medicare doing to try and address requirements for charity care, for example?

Seshamani: Well, the. IRS oversees the requirements for community benefit, which is how hospitals maintain or get a nonprofit status. We have certainly worked with the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau and the Department of Treasury on, for example, issuing a request for information, seeking public comment on, you know, medical credit cards. But even beyond that, I think this is an example of where we need to bring more payment accuracy and transparency in the health care system. So, for example, we have recently just proposed strengthening hospital price transparency so that people can know what is the cost of services, standard charges that hospitals provide. We also are adding quality measures to hospitals, particularly around issues around health equity, making sure that hospitals are screening patients for social needs. And we’re also tying increasingly our payment programs to making sure that those underserved populations are receiving excellent care, so again, really trying to drive transparency, quality, and access through all of the work that we’re doing with hospitals.

Rovner: But can you leverage Medicare’s power? Obviously, you know, that was what created EMTALA [the Emergency Medical Treatment and Labor Act], was leveraging Medicare’s power. Can you leverage it here to try and push some of these hospitals to do things they seem reluctant to do?

Seshamani: Where we have our levers in the Medicare program, we absolutely are working with hospitals around issues of equity, so as I mentioned, you know, really embedding equity not only in our quality requirements but also in hospital operations — for example, that as part of their operations they need to be looking at health equity. You know, where we are looking at how they are providing care and addressing issues of patient safety. So, we continue to look into all of these angles, and where we can support good practices. For example, we just proposed in our inpatient prospective payment system rule that when hospitals are taking care of homeless patients, that can be considered in their payment, because we have found through our analyses that additional resources are being used to make sure that those patients are supported for all of their needs, and we’re encouraging hospitals to code for these social needs so that we can continue to assess with them where resources and supports are needed to provide the kind of care that we all want for our populations.

Rovner: Last question, and I know that this is big, so it’s almost unfair. One of the reasons we know that it’s getting so expensive to manage medical costs is the increasing involvement of private equity in health care. What’s the Biden administration doing to address this growing profit motive?

Seshamani: Yeah, Julie, I’ll come back to, you know, what I alluded to before around transparency. We are really committed to transparency in health care, and we are continuing to focus on gathering data that sheds light on what is happening in the health care market so that we can be good stewards of the taxpayer dollar. So I mentioned our work in hospital price transparency, where we have streamlined the enforcement process; we have proposed to require standard ways that hospitals are reporting their charges and standard locations where they have to put a footer on the hospital’s homepage so that people can find that data easily. In Medicare Advantage, we are requiring more reporting for the medical loss ratio for plans to report spending on supplemental benefits like dental, vision, etc. And we really want to hone in on where else we can gather more data to be able to enable all of us to see what is happening in this dynamic health care market; what’s working? What isn’t? And so we’re very interested in getting ideas.from everyone of where more data can be helpful to enable us to then enact policies that can make sure that the health care industries and the market are really serving people in the most effective way possible.

Rovner: Well, you’ve got a very big job, so I will let you get back to it. Thank you so much, Meena Seshamani.

Seshamani: Thank you for having me.

Rovner: OK, we’re back and it’s time for our extra credit segment. That’s when we each recommend a story we read this week we think you should read too. As always, don’t worry if you miss it. We will post the links on the podcast page at kffhealthnews.org and in our show notes on your phone or other mobile device. Shefali, why don’t you go first this week?

Luthra: Sure. So mine is from KFF Health News by a dream team, Bram Sable-Smith, Daniel Chang, Jazmin Orozco Rodriguez, and Sandy West. The headline is “Medical Exiles: Families Flee States Amid Crackdown on Transgender Care.” And I mean, it’s exactly what it sounds like. It’s this really person-grounded, quite deeply reported story about how restrictions on gender-affirming health care, especially for young people, are forcing families to leave their homes. And this is a really tough thing for people to do, you know, leave somewhere where you’ve lived for 10 years or longer and go somewhere where you don’t have ties. Moving is quite expensive. And I think this is a really important look at something that we anecdotally know is happening, haven’t seen enough really great deep dives on, and is something that potentially will happen more and more as people are forced to leave their homes if they can afford to do so because they don’t feel safe there anymore.

Rovner: Yeah, and this is the issue of doing these social issues state by state by state, just what’s happening now. Alice.

Ollstein: So I chose a piece from The Atlantic called “What Happened When Oregon Decriminalized Hard Drugs,” by Jim Hinch. It was really fascinating. On the one side, they say this is evidence that the policy has failed, that decriminalizing possession of small amounts of cocaine, heroin, all hard drugs, has been a failure because overdoses have actually gone up since then. But other experts quoted in this article say that, look, we tried the punitive war on drugs model for decades and decades and decades before declaring it a failure; how can we evaluate this after just a few years? It just takes more time to make this transition and takes more time to, you know, ramp up treatment and services for people, and because this happened three years ago, it was disrupted by the pandemic and, you know, services were not able to reach people, etc. So a really fascinating look.

Rovner: Yes, it’s quite the social experiment that’s going on in Oregon. Rachel.

Cohrs: So mine is from The New York Times, a group of reporters and a new series called “Operating Profits.” And the headline is “They Lost Their Legs. Doctors and Health Care Giants Profited.” And I think I’m just really excited to see more about this line of reporting about overutilization in health care and how certain payment incentives — I mean, they made a story about payment incentives in hospital outpatient departments and how pay rates change really personal and interesting, and it’s important. So, I mean, all these really dense rules that we’re seeing drop this summer do really have implications for patients. And there are bad actors out there who are kind of capitalizing on that. So I felt it was like really responsible reporting, mostly focused on one physician who, you know, was doing procedures that he shouldn’t have and other doctors ultimately were left to clean up the damage for these patients. And they had amputations that they maybe shouldn’t have had, which is such a serious and devastating consequence. I thought that was very important reporting, and I’m excited to see what’s next.

Rovner: Yeah, I’m looking forward to seeing the rest of the series. Well, my story this week is in the Los Angeles Times from my KFF Health News colleague Noam Levey, who’s been working on a giant project on medical debt. It’s called “Crushing Medical Debt Is Turning Americans Against Their Doctors.” And it points out something I hadn’t really thought about before, that outrageous and unexpected bills are undermining public confidence in medical providers and the medical system writ large. And so far, nobody’s doing very much about it. To quote from Noam’s piece, “Hospitals and doctors blame the government for underpaying them and blame insurers for selling plans with unaffordable deductibles. Insurers blame providers for obscene prices. Everyone blames drug companies.” Well, it’s going to take a lot of time to dig out of this hole, but probably it would help if everybody stopped digging. OK. That is our show for this week. As always, if you enjoy the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left us a review; that helps other people find us too. Special thanks, as always, to our producer, Francis Ying. Also, as always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org. Or you can tweet me. I’m still @jrovner, and I’m on Threads @julie.rovner. Shefali.

Luthra: I’m @shefalil.

Rovner: Alice.

Ollstein: @AliceOllstein.

Rovner: Rachel.

Cohrs: I’m @rachelcohrs.

Rovner: We will be back in your feed next week. Until then, be healthy.

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The idea seems simple enough.

Preserve all the rituals of smoking: Light up a cigarette, inhale the smoke, including the nasty stuff that can kill you, and exhale. But remove most of the nicotine, the chemical that makes tobacco so darn hard to quit, to help smokers smoke less.

The Food and Drug Administration has been contemplating that strategy for at least six years as one way to make it easier for smokers to cut back, if not quit entirely. Less than two years ago, it authorized 22nd Century Group, a publicly traded plant biotech company based in Buffalo, New York, to advertise its proprietary low-nicotine cigarettes as modified-risk tobacco products.

Now, the first authorized cigarettes with 95% less nicotine than traditional smokes are coming to California, Florida, and Texas in early July, after a year of test-marketing in Illinois and Colorado. It’s part of an aggressive rollout by 22nd Century that, by year’s end, could bring its products to 18 states — markets that together account for more than half of U.S. cigarette sales.

But anti-smoking groups oppose greenlighting 22nd Century’s products. Instead, they urge federal regulators to expand on their original plan of setting a low-nicotine standard for all combustible cigarettes to make them minimally or nonaddictive. They expect the FDA to take the next step in that industrywide regulatory process as early as this fall.

“Unless and until there is a categorywide requirement that nicotine goes down to low, nonaddictive levels, this is not going to make a difference,” said Erika Sward, a spokesperson for the American Lung Association.

Major tobacco companies Altria, R.J. Reynolds, and ITG Brands did not respond to requests for comment.

Cigarette smoking is estimated to cause more than 480,000 deaths a year in the U.S., including from secondhand smoke, and contributes to tobacco use being the leading preventable cause of death nationally. In 2018, then-FDA Commissioner Scott Gottlieb wrote that setting a maximum nicotine level “could result in more than 8 million fewer tobacco-caused deaths through the end of the century – an undeniable public health benefit.”

The FDA reasoned that people would collectively smoke fewer cigarettes and have less exposure to the deadly toxins that are still present in low-nicotine cigarettes.

22nd Century says it used a patent-protected process to control nicotine biosynthesis in the tobacco plant, enabling it to create a pack of cigarettes with about as much nicotine as one Marlboro. It says generally that it uses “modern plant breeding technologies, including genetic engineering, gene-editing, and molecular breeding.”

Keeping 5% of the nicotine is enough to prevent smokers from seeking more to satisfy their craving, said John Miller, president of 22nd Century’s smoking division.

“There’s just enough in there that your brain thinks it’s getting it, but it’s not,” Miller said. “That was really one of the reasons we got to these levels of nicotine, is because you don’t have that additional smoking.”

Miller said the low-nicotine cigarettes can help some smokers cut back or quit, perhaps in conjunction with a nicotine patch or gum, when they’ve tried and failed with other stop-smoking programs.

Campaign for Tobacco-Free Kids President Matthew L. Myers supports the development of an industrywide low-nicotine standard, saying the concept would work only if consumers no longer had the alternative of a higher-nicotine cigarette.

“The concern with a product that’s still addictive, but delivers low levels of nicotine, in fact is that consumers will smoke more, because the evidence shows that somebody who’s addicted will smoke enough to satisfy their craving,” Myers said.

Both the FDA and anti-smoking groups cited studies that found lower levels of nicotine don’t prompt smokers to smoke more to reach the same nicotine levels. But those studies assumed smokers wouldn’t have a high-nicotine alternative, anti-smoking groups and researchers said.

Allowing low-nicotine cigarettes while conventional cigarettes remain available may be a public health detriment if they discourage smokers from quitting entirely or encourage others to start smoking because they think there’s a safe way to experiment with cigarettes, the Campaign for Tobacco-Free Kids and several health associations wrote in a letter urging the FDA to reverse its 22nd Century decision.

22nd Century’s cigarettes are still dangerous, and consumers must substantially cut back or quit smoking to get health advantages. But anti-smoking groups fear many smokers won’t understand that.

“If people are looking at this as a magic bullet and are still continuing their tobacco use, they are not doing anything to change their risk,” said Sward, of the lung association.

Anti-smoking groups particularly object to allowing 22nd Century to market menthol cigarettes even as the FDA is considering outlawing such cigarettes nationwide.

FDA spokesperson Abby Capobianco confirmed that 22nd Century has the only FDA-authorized low-nicotine cigarette but did not respond to requests for comment on the FDA’s plans for regulating nicotine in cigarettes.

California already outlaws menthol flavoring, and Miller said the company won’t challenge that state’s ban and won’t sell its menthol cigarettes in California.

But Miller hopes the company will eventually win an exemption from any federal ban, in part, he said, because more than half of menthol smokers are likely to switch to conventional cigarettes.

“That’s not what the FDA wants to happen,” Miller said. “They need an offramp for these menthol smokers and ours is obviously the natural.”

The company is expanding into California, Florida, and Texas because of the nation-leading size of their smoking populations. It previously announced plans to also begin selling its very low-nicotine, or VLN, cigarettes this year in Arizona, New Mexico, and Utah, and it may move into 10 more states.

The company is prioritizing seven states that offer tax incentives for products the FDA has said reduce tobacco risk, believing its cigarettes will have a price advantage over others in Colorado, Connecticut, Kentucky, Michigan, North Carolina, New Mexico, and Utah. Miller said the company may lobby California lawmakers to add similar incentives as part of the state’s extensive efforts to discourage smoking, which still addicts 10% of its residents.

Miller declined to disclose the company’s market share from the two test states but said sales were above expectations.

“If we can get this to the level of, like, a nonalcoholic beer — you know, 3% to 5% of the category — it’s a game changer,” Miller said. “We know that there’s a latent demand in the market for this product.”

This article was produced by KFF Health News, which publishes California Healthline, an editorially independent service of the California Health Care Foundation. 

KFF Health News is a national newsroom that produces in-depth journalism about health issues and is one of the core operating programs at KFF—an independent source of health policy research, polling, and journalism. Learn more about KFF.

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Julie Rovner is chief Washington correspondent and host of KFF Health News’ weekly health policy news podcast, “What the Health?” A noted expert on health policy issues, Julie is the author of the critically praised reference book “Health Care Politics and Policy A to Z,” now in its third edition.

In this special episode of KFF Health News’ “What the Health?” host and chief Washington correspondent Julie Rovner leads a rare conversation with the current and two former secretaries of Health and Human Services. Taped before a live audience at Aspen Ideas: Health, part of the Aspen Ideas Festival, in Aspen, Colorado, Secretary Xavier Becerra and two of his predecessors, Kathleen Sebelius and Alex Azar, talk candidly about what it takes to run a department with more than 80,000 employees and a budget larger than those of many countries.

Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:

• The Department of Health and Human Services is much more than a domestic agency. It also plays a key role in national security, the three HHS secretaries explained, describing the importance of the “soft diplomacy” of building and supporting health systems abroad.
• Each HHS secretary — Sebelius, who served under former President Barack Obama; Azar, who served under former President Donald Trump; and Becerra, the current secretary, under President Joe Biden — offered frank, sobering, and even funny stories about interacting with the White House. “Anything you thought you were going to do during the day often got blown up by the White House,” Sebelius said. Asked what he was unprepared for when he started the job, Azar quipped: “The Trump administration.”
• Identifying their proudest accomplishment as the nation’s top health official, Azar and Becerra both cited their work responding to the covid-19 pandemic, specifically Operation Warp Speed, the interagency effort to develop and disseminate vaccines, and H-CORE, which Becerra described as a quiet successor to Warp Speed. They also each touted their respective administrations’ efforts to regulate tobacco.
• Having weathered recent debates over the separation of public policy and politics at the top health agency, the panel discussed how they’ve approached balancing the two in decision-making. For Becerra, the answer was unequivocal: “We use the facts and the science. We don’t do politics.”

Click to open the transcript

Transcript: Live From Aspen: Three HHS Secretaries on What the Job Is Really Like

KFF Health News’ ‘What the Health?’

Episode Title: Live From Aspen: Three HHS Secretaries on What the Job Is Really Like

Episode Number: 303

Published: June 22, 2023

[Editor’s note: This transcript, generated using transcription software, has been edited for style and clarity.]

Julie Rovner: Hello and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Julie Rovner, coming to you this week from the Aspen Ideas: Health conference in Aspen, Colorado. We have a cool special for you this week. For the first time, the current secretary of Health and Human Services sat down for a joint interview with two of his predecessors. This was taped before a live audience on Wednesday evening, June 21, in Aspen. So, as we like to say, here we go.

Hello. Good evening. Welcome to Aspen Ideas: Health. I’m Julie Rovner. I’m the chief Washington correspondent for KFF Health News and also host of KFF Health News’ health policy podcast, “What the Health?,” which you are now all the audience for, so thank you very much. I’m sure these people with me need no introduction, but I’m going to introduce them anyway because I think that’s required.

Immediately to my left, we are honored to welcome the current U.S. secretary of Health and Human Services, Xavier Becerra. Secretary Becerra is the first Latino to serve in this post. He was previously attorney general of the state of California. And before that, he served in the U.S. House of Representatives for nearly 25 years, where, as a member of the powerful Ways and Means Committee, he helped draft and pass what’s now the Affordable Care Act. Thank you for joining us.

Next to him, we have Kathleen Sebelius, who served as secretary during the Obama administration from 2009 to 2014, where she also helped pass and implement the Affordable Care Act. I first met Secretary Sebelius when she was Kansas’ state insurance commissioner, a post she was elected to twice. She went on to be elected twice as governor of the state, which is no small feat in a very red state for a Democrat. Today, she also consults on health policy and serves on several boards, including — full disclosure — that of my organization, KFF. Thank you so much for being here.

And on the end we have Alex Azar, who served as HHS secretary from 2018 to 2021 and had the decidedly mixed privilege of leading the department through the first two years of the covid pandemic, which I’m sure was not on his to-do list when he took the job. At least Secretary Azar came to the job with plenty of relevant experience. He’d served in the department previously as HHS deputy secretary and as general counsel during the George W. Bush administration and later as a top executive at U.S. drugmaker Eli Lilly. Today, he advises a health investment firm, teaches at the University of Miami Herbert Business School, and sits on several boards, including the Aspen Institute’s. So, thank you.

Former Secretary of Health and Human Services Alex Azar: Thank you.

Rovner: So I know you’re not here to listen to me, so we’re going to jump in with our first question. As I’m sure we will talk about in more detail, HHS is a vast agency that includes, just on the health side, agencies including the Food and Drug Administration, the National Institutes of Health, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, and the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services. The department has more than 80,000 employees around the country and throughout the world and oversees more than one and a half trillion dollars of federal funding each year. I want to ask each of you — I guess we’ll start with you — what is the one thing you wish the public understood about the department that you think they don’t really now?

Secretary of Health and Human Services Xavier Becerra: Given everything you just said, I wish people would understand that the Constitution left health care to the states. And so, as big as we are and as much as we do — Medicare, Medicaid, CHIP [Children’s Health Insurance Program], Obamacare — we still don’t control or drive health care. The only way we get in the game is when we put money into it. And that’s why people do Medicare, because we put money into it. States do Medicaid because we put money into it. And it became very obvious with covid that the federal government doesn’t manage health care. We don’t have a national system of health or public health. We have a nationwide system of public health where 50 different states determine what happens, and so one state may do better than another, and we’re out there trying to make it work evenhandedly for everyone in America. But it’s very tough because we don’t have a national system of public health.

Rovner: Secretary, what’s the thing that you wish people understood about HHS?

Former Secretary of Health and Human Services Kathleen Sebelius: Well, I agree with what Secretary Becerra has said, but it always made me unhappy that people don’t understand fully, I don’t think, the international role that HHS plays, and it is so essential to the safety and security and resilience of the United States. So we have employees across the world. CDC has employees in about 40 other countries, and helping to build health systems in various parts of the world, sharing information about how you stand up a health system, what a great hospital looks like. NIH does experiments and clinical trials all over the globe and is regarded as the gold standard. And we actually, I think, at HHS were able to do what they call soft diplomacy. And a lot of countries aren’t eager to have the State Department involved. They’re certainly not eager to see soldiers. Our trade policies make some people uncomfortable. But they welcome health professionals. They welcome the opportunity to learn from the United States. So it’s really a way often to get into countries and make friendships. And we need to monitor across the globe, as covid showed so well. When an outbreak happens someplace else in the world, we can’t wait for it to arrive on the border of the United States. Safety and security of American citizens really depends on global information exchange, a global surveillance exchange. The CDC has also trained epidemiologists in regions around the world so that they can be faster and share information. And I think too often in Congress, those line items for foreign trips, for offices elsewhere, people say, “Well, we don’t really need that. We should focus all our attention on America.” But I’ve always thought, if folks really understood how integral it is not just to our health security, but really national security, that we have these partnerships — and it’s, as I say, I think the best soft diplomacy and the cheapest soft diplomacy underway is to send health professionals all over the globe and to make those friendships.

Rovner: Do you think people understand that better since covid?

Sebelius: Maybe. You know, but some people reacted, unfortunately, to covid, saying, “Well, we put up bigger walls, and we” — I mean, no disease needs a passport, no wall stops things from coming across our borders. And I’m not sure that still is something that people take to heart.

Rovner: Secretary Azar, you actually have the most — in terms of years — experience at the department. What is it that people don’t know that they should?

Azar: So I probably would have led with what Secretary Becerra said about just how highly decentralized the public health infrastructure and leadership and decision-making is in the United States. I mean, it really — all those calls are made, and it’s not even just the 50 states. It’s actually 62 public health jurisdictions, because we separately fund a whole series of cities. I’ll concur in that. I’d say the other thing that people probably don’t understand, and maybe this is too inside baseball, is the secretary of HHS is, on the one hand, probably the most powerful secretary in the Cabinet and, on the other hand, also quite weak. So literally every authority, almost every authority, in the thousands and thousands of pages of U.S. statute that empower programs at HHS, say, “The secretary shall …” So the FDA, the CDC, CMS, all of these programs really operate purely by delegation of the secretary, because Secretary Becerra allows them to make decisions or to run programs. They are his authorities. And so the media, then, when the secretary acts, will … [unintelligible] … “How dare you,” you know, “how dare you be involved in this issue or that issue?” Well, it is legally and constitutionally Secretary Becerra’s job. And, on the other hand, you are supervising — it’s like a university, because you’re also supervising operating divisions that are global household brands. It is really like being a university president, for all that’s good and evil of that. You have to lead by consensus. You have to lead by bringing people along. You are not a dictator, in spite of what the U.S. statutes say. It’s very, very similar to that — that you, the secretary, is both powerful, but also has to really lead a highly matrixed, consensus-based organization to get things done.

Rovner: You’re actually leading perfectly into my next question, which is, how do you juggle all the moving pieces of this department? Just putting the agency heads in one room could fill a room this size. So tell us what sort of an average day for each of you would look like as secretary, if there’s such a thing as an average day.

Azar: Well, first, not an average administration, so take with a grain of salt my average day. So, interspersed among the two to five phone calls with the president of the United States between 7 a.m. and midnight, you know, other than that, um — I started every day meeting with my — you know, as secretary, you’ve got to have a team around you that’s not just your operating divisions, but I would start every morning — we would have just a huddle with chief of staff, deputy chief of staff, my head of public affairs. Often my general counsel would join that, my legislative leader. Just what’s going to hit us in the face today? Like, what are we trying to do, and what’s going to hit us in the face today? Just a situational awareness, every morning at about 8 a.m., quick huddle on that, and then diving into really the rhythm of the day of — I tried to drive — I use a book that I helped actually do some of the work on called “The 4 Disciplines of Execution,” just a tool of how do you focus and drive change in very complex organizations? So I tried to focus on four key initiatives that I spent as much of my time as secretary on leading and pushing on, and so I tried to make sure as much of my time was doing that. But then it’s reactive. You’re having to go to White House meetings constantly. You have to sign off on every regulation at the department. And so you’re in meetings just getting briefed and deciding approve or disapprove, so that rhythm constantly, and then add travel in, add evening commitments, add speeches. I’d say the biggest challenge you have as a leader in HHS is that first point of, focus, because you could be like a bobber on the water, just going with whatever’s happening, if you don’t have a maniacally focused agenda of, “I’ve got a limited amount of time. I’m going to drive change here. And if I don’t spend time every day pushing the department on this issue, being basically a burr in the saddle to make it happen, it won’t.” And you’ve just got to constantly be on that.

Rovner: Secretary Sebelius, what did your average day look like?

Sebelius: Well, I’m not going to repeat what Alex has just said. A lot of that goes on in the daily routine. First of all, I think all of us would be sent home the night before with a binder of materials — briefings for what you’re going to do the next day. So you may have 10 meetings, but each of those has a 20-page brief behind it. And then what the issues are, what the questions might be. So that’s your homework often that you’re leaving with at 7 or 8 at night. I like to run in the morning, and I would get up, read my schedule, and then go out and run on the [National] Mall because it sort of cleared my head. I’m proud of having — some of the folks may still be here — none of the detail ran before I started running, and my deal with them was, “I’m much older than you are, you know. We’re all going to run.”

Azar: They still —

Sebelius: Oh, here we go.

Azar: They still talk about it.

Sebelius: Well, one of them got to be a great marathon runner, you know. Can’t hurt. One guy started riding a bike, and I was like, “What are you doing?” I mean, if I fall, what are you going to do with the bike? I mean, am I going to carry it, are you going to carry it? I mean, who — anyway, so I started that way. You’d go then into the office. And one of the things that was not mentioned is HHS has an amazing, camera-ready studio, TV studio, that lots of other Cabinet agencies used. It has a setting that looks like “The View.” It has a stool that you can look in cameras, but two or three days a week we would do what they call “Around the Country.” So you would sit in a stool, and I’d be doing updates on the ACA or a pitch to enrollment or something about a disease, and you would literally have a cue card up that would say “Minneapolis, Andrea.” And I would say, “Good morning, Andrea.” And we would do a two-second spot in Minneapolis and they’d have numbers for me and then the camera would switch and it would be Bob in St. Louis. “Hello, Bob. How are you?” So that was a morning start that’s a little bit different. Anything you thought you were going to do during the day often got blown up by the White House: somebody calling, saying, you know, “The president wants this meeting,” “the vice president’s calling this.” So then the day gets kind of rearranged. And I think the description of who the key staff are around, but 12 operating agencies — any one of them could be a much more than full-time job. So just getting to know the NIH or, you know, seeing what CDC in Atlanta does every day, but trying to keep the leadership in touch, in tune, and make sure that — one of the things that, having been a governor and working with Cabinet agencies, that I thought was really important, is everybody has some input on everything. These are the stars, the agency heads. They know much more about health and their agencies than I would ever know. But making sure that I have their input and their lens on every decision that was made. So we had regular meetings where the flatter the organization, the better, as far as I’m concerned. They were all there and they gave input into policy decisions. But it is not a boring job and it’s never done. You just had to say at the end of the day, with this giant book, “OK, that’s enough for today. I’ll start again tomorrow, and there’ll be another giant book and here we go.”

Rovner: And your day, since you’re doing it now?

Becerra: I don’t know if it’s the pleasure or the bane of starting off virtually. Almost everything we did was via Zoom. I didn’t meet many of my team until months into the term because we were in the midst of covid. So we would start the days usually pretty early in the morning with Zooms and it would go one Zoom after the other. Of course, once we started doing more in-person activities, schedulers still thought they could schedule you pretty much one right after the other, and so they pack in as much as they can. I think all of us would say we’re just blessed to have some of the most talented people. I see Commissioner Califf from the FDA over there in the room. I will tell you, it’s just a yes … [applause] … . It’s a blessing to get to serve with these folks. They are the best in their fields. And you’re talking about some pretty critical agencies, FDA, NIH, CDC, CMS. I mean, the breadth, the jurisdiction, of CMS is immense. They do fabulous work. They are so committed. And so it makes it a lot easier. And then, of course, we all — we each have had — I have my group of counselors who are essentially my captains of the different agencies, and they help manage, because without that it would be near-impossible. And these are people who are younger, but my God, they’re the folks that every CEO looks for to sort of help manage an agency, and they’re so committed to the task. And so I feel like a kid in a candy store because I’m doing some of the things that I worked on so long when I was a member of Congress and could never get over the finish line. Now I get to sort of nudge everything over the finish line, and it really is helpful, as Alex said, to remind people that the statute does say, “The secretary shall … ,” not someone else, “the secretary shall … .” And so, at the end of the day, you get to sort of weigh it. And so it’s a pleasure to work with very talented, committed people.

Sebelius: Julie, I want to throw in one more thing, because I think this is back to what people don’t know, but it’s also about our days. There’s an assumption, when administrations change, the whole agency changes, right? Washington all changes. In a department like HHS, 90,000 employees scattered in the country and around the world, there are about 900 total political appointees, and they are split among all the agencies and the secretary’s office there. So you’re really talking about this incredibly talented team of professionals who are running those agencies and have all the health expertise, with the few people across the top that may try to change directions and put — but I think there’s an assumption that sort of the whole group sweeps out and somebody else sweeps in, and that really is not the case.

Rovner: So, as I mentioned, all three of you had relevant government experience before you came to HHS. Secretary Sebelius, you were a governor, so you knew about running a large organization. I want to ask all three of you, did you really understand what you were getting into when you became secretary? And is there some way to grow up to become HHS secretary?

Azar: I mean, yeah, I — yeah, I have no excuse. My first day, right after getting sworn in — the secretary has a private elevator that goes directly up to the sixth floor where the suite is, the deputy secretary’s office to the right, secretary to the left — my first day, I’m up, headed up with my security detail, and I get off and I walk off to the right. “Mr. Secretary, no, no, no. It’s this way.” Literally, it was like — it had been 11 years, but it was like coming home to me. I was literally about to walk into my old office as deputy secretary, and they show me to the secretary’s office. And I think for the first three months, I kept thinking Tommy Thompson or Mike Leavitt was going to walk in and say, “Get the hell out of my office.” And no, so it, and it was the same people, as Secretary Sebelius said. I knew all the top career people. I’d worked with them over the course of — in and out of government — 20 years. So it was very much a “coming home” for me. And it was many of the same issues were still the same issues. Sustainable growth rate — I mean, whatever else, it was all the same things going on again, except the ACA was new. That was a new nice one you gave me to deal with also. So, yeah, thank you.

Sebelius: You’re welcome. We had to have something new.

Rovner: What were you unprepared for when you took on this job?

Azar: Well, for me, the Trump administration.

Rovner: Yeah, that’s fair.

Azar: I, you know, had come out of the Bush administration. You’re at Eli Lilly. I mean, you know, you’re used to certain processes and ways people interact. And, you know, it’s just — it was different.

Sebelius: I had a pretty different experience. The rhythm of being a governor and being a Cabinet secretary is pretty similar. Cabinet agencies, working with the legislative process, the budget. So I kind of had that sense. I had no [Capitol] Hill experience. I had not worked on the Hill or served on the Hill, so that was a whole new entity. You’re not by protocol even allowed in the department until you’re confirmed. So I had never even seen the inside of the office. I mean, Alex talked about being confused about which way to turn. I mean, I had no idea [about] anything on the sixth floor. I hadn’t ever been there. My way of entering the department — I was President [Barack] Obama’s second choice. [Former South Dakota Democratic Senator] Tom Daschle had been nominated to be HHS secretary. And that was fine with me. And I said, “I’m a governor. I’ve got two more years in my term. I’ll join you sometime.” And then when Sen. Daschle withdrew, the president came back to me and said, “OK, how about, would you take this job if you’re able to get it?” And I said, “Yes, that’s an agency that’s interesting and challenging.” So I still was a governor, so I was serving as governor, flying in and out of D.C. to get briefings so I could go through hearings on this department that I didn’t know a lot about and had never really worked with, and then would go back and do my day job in Kansas. And the day that the Senate confirmation hearing began, a call came to our office from the White House. And this staffer said, “This governor? “Yes.” “President Obama has a plane in the air. It’s going to land at Forbes Air Force Base at noon. We want you on the plane.” And I said, you know, “That’s really interesting, but I don’t have a job yet. And I actually have a job here in Kansas. And here’s my plan. You know, my plan is I’m going to wait until I get confirmed and then I’ll resign and then I’ll get on the plane and then I’ll come to D.C.” And they said, “The president has a plane in the air, and it will land. He wants you on the plane.” First boss I’d had in 20 years. And I thought, “Oh, oh, OK. That’s a new thing.” So I literally left. Secretary Azar has heard this story earlier, but I left an index card on my desk in Kansas that said, “In the event I am confirmed, I hereby resign as governor.” And it was notarized and left there because I thought, I’m not giving up this job, not knowing if I will have another job. But halfway across the country I was confirmed and they came back and said — so I land and I said, “Where am I going?” I, literally, where — I mean, I’m all by myself, you know, it’s like, where am I going? “You’re going to the White House. The president’s going to swear you in.” “Great.” Except he couldn’t swear me in. He didn’t have the statutory authority, it turns out, so he could hold the Bible and the Cabinet secretary could swear me in. And then I was taken to the Situation Room, with somebody leading the way because I’d never been to the Situation Room. And the head of the World Health Organization was on the phone, the health minister from Canada, the health minister from Mexico, luckily my friend Janet Napolitano, who was Department of Homeland Security secretary — because we were in the middle of the H1N1 outbreak, swine flu, nobody knew what was going on. It was, you know, an initial pandemic. And everybody met and talked for a couple of hours. And then they all got up and left the room and I thought, woo-hoo, I’m the Cabinet secretary, you know, and they left? And somebody said to me later, well, “Does the White House find you a place to live?” I said, “Absolutely not. Nobody even asked if I had a place to stay.” I mean, it was 11 o’clock at night. They were all like, “Good night,” “goodbye,” “see ya.” So I luckily had friends in D.C. who I called and said, “Are you up? Can I come over? I’d like somebody to say, ‘Yay,’ you know, ‘we’re here.’” So that’s how I began.

Rovner: So you are kind of between these two. You have at least a little more idea of what it entailed. But what were you unprepared for in taking on this job?

Becerra: Probably the magnitude. Having served in Congress, I knew most of the agencies within HHS. I had worked very closely with most of the bigger agencies at HHS. As AG — Alex, I apologize — I sued HHS quite a —

Azar: He sued me a lot.

Becerra: Quite a few times.

Azar: Becerra v. Azar, all over the place.

Becerra: But the magnitude. I thought running the largest department of justice in the land other than the U.S. Department of Justice was a pretty big deal. But then you land and you have this agency that just stretches everywhere. And I agree with everything that Kathleen said earlier about the role that we play internationally. We are some of the best ambassadors for this country in the world because everyone wants you to help them save lives. And so it really helps. So the magnitude — it just struck me. When President Biden came in, we lost the equivalent of about — what, 13 9/11 twin tower deaths one day. Every day we were losing 11 twin tower deaths. And it hits you: You’ve got to come up with the answer yesterday. And so the White House is not a patient place, and they want answers quickly. And so you’re just, you’re on task. And it really is — it’s on you. You really — it smothers you, because you can’t let it go. And whether it was covid at the beginning or monkeypox last year, all of a sudden we see monkeypox, mpox, starting to pop up across the country. And it was, could this become the next covid? And so right away you’ve got to smother it. And the intensity is immediate. Probably the thing that I wasn’t prepared for as well, along with the magnitude, was, as I said, the breadth. Came in doing all these Zooms virtually to try to deal with the pandemic. But probably the thing that I had to really zero in on even more, that the president was expecting us to zero in on more, was migrant kids at the border and how you deal with not having a child sleep on a cement floor with an aluminum blanket and just trying to deal with that. It won’t overwhelm you necessarily, but — and again, thank God you’ve got just people who are so committed to this, because at any hour of the day and night, you’re working on these things — but the immensity of the task, because it’s real. And other departments also have very important responsibilities — clearly, Department of Defense, Department of State. But really it truly is life-and-death at HHS. So the gravity, it hits you, and it’s nonstop.

Rovner: All three of you were secretary at a time when health was actually at the top of the national agenda — which is not true. I’ve been covering HHS since 1986, and there have been plenty of secretaries who sort of were in the back of the administration, if you will, but you all really were front and center in all of these things. I want to go to sort of down the line. What was the hardest decision you had to make as secretary?

Becerra: Um …

Rovner: You’re not finished yet. I should say so far.

Becerra: I mean, there have been a lot of tough decisions, but, you know, when your team essentially prepares them up and you have all this discussion, but by the time it gets to me, it really has been baked really, really well. And now it’s sort of, White House is looking at this, we are seeing some of this, we’ve got to make a call. And again, Dr. Califf could speak to this as well. At the end of the day, the decisions aren’t so much difficult. It’s that they’re just very consequential. Do you prepare for a large surge in omicron and therefore spend a lot of money right now getting ready? Or do you sort of wait and see a little bit longer, preserve some of your money so you can use some of that money to do the longer-term work that needs to be done to prepare for the next generation of the viruses that are coming? Because once you spend the dollar, you don’t have it anymore. So you got to make that call. Those are the things that you’re constantly dealing with. But again, it just really helps to have a great team.

Sebelius: So I would say I was totally fortunate that the pandemic we dealt with was relatively short-lived and luckily far, far milder than what consumed both the secretaries to my left and right, and that was fortunate. A lot of our big decision areas were under the rubric of the Affordable Care Act and both trying to get it passed and threading that needle but then implementation. And I — you know, thinking about that question, Julie, I would say one of the toughest decisions — just because it provided a real clash between me and some of the people in the White House; luckily, at the end of the day, not the president, but — was really about the contraception coverage. Reproductive health had been something I’d worked on as a legislator, as governor. I felt very strongly about it. We’d fought a lot of battles in Kansas around it, and part of the Affordable Care Act was a preventive services benefit around contraceptive care. And that was going to be life-changing for a lot of women. And how broad it should be, how many battles we were willing to take on, how that could be implemented became a clash. And I think there were people in the administration who were hopeful that you could avoid clashes. So just make a compromise, you know, eliminate this group or that group, who may get unhappy about it. And at the end of the day, I was helped not just by people in the department, but mobilized some of my women Cabinet friends and senior White House women friends. And we sort of had a little bit of a facedown. And as I say, the president ended up saying, “OK, we’ll go big. We’ll go as big as we possibly can.” But I look back on that as a — I mean, it was a consequential decision, and it was implementation — not passing the rag in the first place, but implementing it. And it had a big impact. A big impact. It’s not one I regret, but it got a little a little tense inside, but what would be friendly meetings.

Azar: I’d use the divide Secretary Becerra talked about, which is that consequential versus hard decisions, that a lot — I think one could have a Hamlet-like character. I don’t. And so making the call when it comes to you wasn’t a terribly difficult thing, even. These are life-and-death decisions, but still yourself, you know your thought processes, you think it through, it’s been baked very well, you’ve heard all sides. You just have to make that call. So I’d maybe pivot to probably it’s more of a process thing. The hardest aspect for me was just deciding when do you fight and when do you not fight with, say, the White House? What hills do you die on? And where do you say, “Yeah, not what I would do, but I just have to live to fight another day.” Those were probably the toughest ones to really wrestle with.

Rovner: Was there one where you really were ready to die on the hill?

Azar: There were a lot. There were a lot. I mean, I’ll give you one example. I mean, I left a lot of blood on the field of battle just to try to outlaw pharmaceutical rebates, to try to push those through to the point of sale. I probably stayed to the end just to get that dag — because I, the opponents had left the administration and I finally got that daggone rule across the finish line right at the end. And that was something that I felt incredibly strongly that you could never actually change. I’ve lived inside that world. You could never change the dynamic of pharmaceutical drug pricing without passing through rebates to the point of sale. And I had so many opponents to get that done. It was a three-year constant daily battle that felt vindicated then to get it done. But that was a fight.

Rovner: And of course, I can’t help but notice that all of the things that you all are talking about are things that are still being debated today. None of them are completely resolved. Let’s turn this around a little bit. I wanted to ask you what you’re most proud of actually getting accomplished. Was it the rebate rule? That was a big deal.

Azar: For me, it has to be Operation Warp Speed. …[applause] … Yeah. Thank you. That was just — I mean, and I don’t want to take the credit. I mean, it was public-private. Mark Esper, this could not have happened without the partnership of the Defense Department, and it could not have happened without Mark Esper as secretary, because — I guarantee you, I’ve dealt with a lot of SecDefs in my career — and when the secretary of defense says to you, “Alex, you have the complete power and support of the Department of Defense. You just tell me what you need.” I haven’t heard those words before. And he was a partner and his whole team a partner throughout. And when you have the muscle of the U.S. military behind you to get something done, it is miraculous what happens. I mean, we were making hundreds of millions of doses of commercial-scale vaccine in June of 2020, when we were still in phase 2 clinical trials. We were just making it at risk. So we’re pumping this stuff out. And in one of the factories, a pump goes down. The pump is on the other side of the country on a train. The U.S. military shoots out a fighter jet, it gets out there, stops the train, pulls the train over, puts it on a helicopter, gets it on the jet, zips it off to the factory. We have colonels at every single manufacturing facility, and they get this installed. We’re up and running within 24 hours. It would have taken six to nine months under normal process. But the U.S. military got that done. So that for me was like just — the other two quick, one was banning flavored e-cigarettes. We got 25% reduction in youth use of tobacco in 12 months as a result of that. And then one of the great public health victories that this country had and the world had got ignored because it got concluded in June of 2020: We had the 11th Ebola outbreak. It was in the war zone in the eastern Democratic Republic of the Congo. This was the pandemic I was really, really worried about. One-hundred seventy-four warring groups in the war zone in the eastern Congo. Got [WHO Director-General] Tedros [Adhanom Ghebreyesus] and [then-Director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases Anthony] Fauci and [then-CDC Director Robert] Redfield, and we went over and we went on the ground and we got that. And by June of 2020, that one got out, which was a miracle of global public health. I’m with Kathleen on that one; I think global public health is a key instrument of American power projection humanity around the world. Sorry to go so long.

Rovner: It’s OK. Your turn.

Sebelius: I think proudest is the ability to participate in the Affordable Care Act and push that over the finish line. And for me, it was a really personal journey. My father was in Congress and was one of the votes for Medicare and Medicaid to be passed, so that chunk of the puzzle. I was the insurance commissioner in Kansas when the Republican governor asked me to do the implementation of the Children’s Health Insurance Program. So I helped with that piece. I was on President [Bill] Clinton’s patient protection commission and ended up with a lot of that package in the Affordable Care Act. And then finally to work for and support and watch a president who basically said when he announced for president, “This is my priority in my first term: I want to pass a major health care bill.” And a lot of people had made that pledge. But 15 months later, there was a bill on his desk and he signed it, and we got to implement it. So that was thrilling. Yeah. And, I should tell you, then-Congressman Becerra was one of the wingmen in the House who I worked with carefully, who — there was no better vote counter than Nancy Pelosi, but by her side was this guy, part of her delegation, named Xavier Becerra, who was whipping the votes into place. So he played a key role in making sure that crossed the finish line.

Becerra: So I’m still here, so you’re going to have to —

Rovner: You can change your answer later.

Becerra: I need a bit of grace here, because I’m going to start with Warp Speed, because I bet no one here knows there’s no longer a Operation Warp Speed. It’s now called H-CORE. And the reason I’m very proud of that is because you don’t know that it’s now H-CORE. And what makes it such a good thing is that the Department of Defense no longer has any role in the protection of the American people from covid. It’s all done in-house at HHS. Everything used to be done essentially under the auspices of the Department of Defense, because they are just the folks that can get things done in 24 hours. We do that now, and it’s the operations that were begun a while back. Kathleen had them, Alex had them. Our ASPR, that’s our Preparedness and Response team, they’re doing phenomenal work, but you don’t know it, and you don’t know that H-CORE took to flight in the first year of the Biden administration. By December of 2021, Department of Defense had transferred over all those responsibilities to us, and we’ve been doing it since. But if you ask me what am I most proud of, it’s, I mean, there are more Americans today than ever in the history of this country who have the ability to pay for their own health care because they have health insurance, more than 300 million. Part of that is Obamacare; a record number, 16 and a half million Americans, get their insurance through the marketplaces, and we haven’t stopped yet. There are close to 700 million shots of covid vaccine that have gone into the arms of Americans. That’s never been done in the history of this country. Some of you are probably familiar with three digits, 988, at a time when Americans are … [applause] … 9 in 10 Americans would tell you that America is experiencing a mental health crisis, especially with our youth. And Congress got wise and said, instead of having in different parts of the country, based on region, you could call a phone number for a suicide lifeline, if you didn’t know the 10-digit number or what part of the country you were in, you were out of luck — today, all you have to do is dial 988. But as I said before, federal government doesn’t run mental health. It’s all done by the states. But President Biden is very committed to mental health. His budgets have surpassed any type of investments that have been called for by any president in history for mental health. And he was very committed to 988 to make sure it launched right. And so we have, by exponential numbers, put money into 988 to make sure every state was ready to have it launch. And so by July of 2022, we launched 988, and it is working so well that people are actually calling — actually, not just calling. We now have a text feature and a chat feature because surprise, surprise, young people prefer not to call; they actually prefer to text. And we have increased the number of Americans who are reaching out by over 2 million, which is great, but it’s also not great because it shows you how much Americans are hurting. So there’s so many things I can tell you that I feel very good about that we’re doing. We’re not done. We’re moving beyond on tobacco where Alex left. We’re now moving to ban menthol in cigarettes. Menthol cigarettes are the most popular brand of cigarettes in America. They hook you because of the menthol, and we’re moving to extract menthol. We’re moving to ban flavored cigars and cigarillos. And we may be on course to try to see if we can move to extract as much nicotine out of tobacco as possible before it becomes a product on the market for folks to smoke. So we’re doing a whole lot of things there. And obviously on vaping, e-cigarettes as well — and Dr. Califf could mention that. But I’ll say the thing I’m probably most proud of is that, out of all the government agencies in America, federal government agencies, HHS ranks No. 2 as the best place to work. And I will tell you we’re No. 2, because if we had the capacity to tell our workforce, we will fly you to the moon and back the way NASA does, we’d be No. 1. So that’s what I think I’m most proud of, is that people, as hard as we work them, still say, “Come work at HHS.”

Rovner: So all of you have mentioned these things that were really hard to do because of politics. And you’ve all talked about how some of these decisions, when they get to you, have been baked by your staff and, you know, they vetted it with every side. But I think the public feels like politics determine everything. And I think you all would like to think that policy is what helps determine most things. So, what’s the balance? How much does politics determine what gets done, and how much is it just the idea that this would be the right policy for the American public?

Azar: Mike Leavitt, who was the secretary when I was deputy secretary, he had a phrase, and I’ll probably mangle it, but it was essentially, “Facts for science, and politics for policy.” And it’s important to remember this distinction. So, facts are facts. You gather data. We are especially a data-generating agency. But on top of that are policy overlays. And there are choices that are made about how do you use those facts? What do those facts mean? What are the implications? The United States Constitution vests under Article 2 in the president of the United States to make those choices and, as his delegee, the secretary and the other appointed leaders of the department. So there’s often this notion of politicizing science, but it’s, are there facts? Facts are facts. You generate facts. But what are the implications for policymaking? And I don’t think there’s anything illegitimate — I think is completely appropriate, whether a Democratic or Republican president — that you look and you consider all kinds of factors. Because for instance, for me, I’m going to look at things very much from a public health lens as I assess things. The secretary of the treasury, the secretary of commerce, may bring a completely and important different perspective to the table that I don’t bring. And it’s completely legitimate that that gets factored on top of whatever I or other agencies bring in as fact. So I think it takes some nuance and that we often, frankly, in public discourse don’t catch nuance. Interesting. We don’t do nuance well.

Rovner: We don’t do nuance.

Sebelius: Well, I would agree with the description of the facts versus the policy. And policy does often have political flavors. I was fortunate to work for a president who said, meant, and said it over and over and over again that he would follow the science. And he did. And I had interesting political debates with people around him, on his team, about what should be done, “rewrite the guidance on this,” “do that,” “this is going to upset this group of people.” And he was very resilient and very consistent, saying, “What does the science say? What do the scientists say? That’s where we’re going,” on those areas which were really defined as giving advice to the American public on health issues, doing a variety of things. I mean, he was totally focused on listening to the science. The politics came in, as I think Secretary Azar said well, in some decisions that were brought to him, which really involved often battles between Cabinet agencies, and both were very legitimate. Again, we had pretty ferocious battles on food labeling and calorie counts and how much sodium would, should manufacturers be allowed to put in all of our manufactured goods. I’m sure many of you are aware, but, you know, American sodium levels are just skyrocketing. And it doesn’t matter what kind of salt you use at your table; it’s already baked into every loaf of bread, every pat of butter, every can of soup. And a lot of European countries have done a great job just lowering that. So the goods that are manufactured that you pick up in an EU country — Kellogg’s Corn Flakes has a third of the sodium that the Kellogg’s Corn Flakes that you get in Aspen does, just because that was a choice that those governments made. That’s a way to keep people healthy. But we would come at that through a public health perspective and argue strenuously for various kinds of limits. The Department of Agriculture, promoting farm products, supporting goods it exports, you know, not wanting to rile people up, would come in very strongly opposing a lot of those public health measures. And the president would make that call. Now, is that politics? Is it policy? Is it, you know, listening to a different lens? But he made the call and some of those battles we would win and some we would lose. But again, it’s a very legitimate role for the president to make. He’s getting input from leaders who see things through a different lens, and then he’s the ultimate decider and he would make the decision.

Becerra: So um, I’ve done politics and policy much longer than I’ve done the secretary role. And I will tell you that there is a big difference. We do do some policy, but for the most part we execute. The policy has been given to us by Congress, and to some degree the White House will help shape that policy. We have some role in policymaking because we put out guidances, and the guidance may look like it’s political or policy-driven, or we decide how much sodium might be allowed in a particular product and so forth. But for the most part, we’re executing on a policy that’s been dictated to the agencies by Congress. And I love that, because when I became AG in California, it really hit you how important it is to be able to marshal facts. And in HHS, it’s not just facts; it’s scientific facts. It is such a treat, as an attorney, to get to rely on scientific facts to push things like masking policy in the face of some hostility that went throughout the country to the point that our CDC director had to have security detail because she was getting death threats for having policies that would urge society to have masking policies for adults, for children. We do rely principally on science and the facts at HHS. Maybe folks don’t believe it, but I can put those on the table for you to take a look at. And perhaps the best example I can give you, and I don’t know if I’ll have time to connect the dots for you, because it’s a little esoteric: Title 42, which many of you got to hear about all the time in the news. Title 42 was a policy that was put in place under the Trump administration when we were in the height of the covid pandemic. We didn’t know what was causing covid, so we were trying to make sure that we protected ourselves and our borders. And so therefore, for public health reasons, we sort of closed our borders to the degree that we could, except for those who proved that they had gone through steps and so forth to be able to come in. Title 42 was used under the Trump administration, under the Biden administration to stop people from coming through our southern border. And there reached a point where, as things got better, our team said Title 42, which is health-based — it’s to stop the spread of contagion — was no longer the appropriate tool to use at the border, because we were letting people in the northern border, by plane, and all the rest. You just had to go through protocols. And so they were saying for health care reasons you go through protocols. But Title 42 is probably not the blanket way to deal with this issue, because it’s no longer simply a health care issue. We pushed really hard on that within the administration to the point where, finally, the administration said, “We’re pulling down Title 42.” Then the politics and the policy came in, from Congress saying, “Oh, how dare you take down Title 42? How dare you do that and let the flood of people come into this country?” Well, look, if you want to deal with people coming into the country, whatever way, then deal with our country’s borders through our immigration laws, not through our health care laws. Don’t try to make health care experts be the reason why you’re stopping someone from coming into this country. Stop hiding behind their skirt. And that’s where we went. And the administration took that policy as well. They took the policy. We then got sued and a court said, “No, you will not take down Title 42.” Ultimately, we think we were going to prevail in court, but ultimately, because we pulled down the public health emergency, things got better under covid, we no longer needed Title 42. But just again, to be clear, the women and men at HHS, we execute; we use the facts and the science. We don’t do politics.

Rovner: So we’ve been very serious.

Becerra: Not everybody believed me on that one.

Rovner: I know, I know. We’ve been very serious here for 50-some minutes. I want to go down the line. What’s the most fun thing you got to do as secretary or the coolest thing that you got to do as secretary?

Azar: Probably for me, it was the trip to the Congo, you know, being in the DRC, going to Uganda, going to Rwanda, flying on MONUSCO [United Nations Organization Stabilization Mission in the Democratic Republic of the Congo] U.N. peacekeeping forces; there was a Russian gunboat taking Tedros and Fauci and Redfield and me there into this war zone. I mean, it’s a once-in-a-lifetime — it’s sort of crazy — but once-in-a-lifetime thing that had impact.

Rovner: I don’t know that most people would call that fun.

Azar: I mean, it’ll be one of those great memories for life. Yeah. Yeah.

Sebelius: There were certainly some great trips and memorable experiences around health results in various parts of the world. Some martinis on the presidential balcony and looking at the Washington Monument — that’s pretty cool at night. But my, I think, personally kind of fun thing. I raised my children on “Sesame Street,” and they loved “Sesame Street” and the characters, and that was sort of part of the family routine. And so I got to go to “Sesame Street” and make a public service commercial with Elmo. I got to see Oscar’s garbage can. I met Snuffleupagus. But the Elmo commercial was to teach kids how to sneeze because, again, we were trying to spread good health habits. And so the script said — I mean, Elmo is right here and I’m here — and the script said, “OK, Elmo, we need to practice how to sneeze. So put your arm up and bend your elbow and sneeze into your arm.” And the puppet answered, “Elmo has no elbow.” That wasn’t part of the script. It was like, really? “And if Elmo does that, it will go like this: Achoo!” OK, so we flipped the script and Elmo taught me to sneeze. But that was a very memorable day to finally be on “Sesame Street.” It was very cool.

Rovner: OK, beat that.

Becerra: My team has not yet scheduled me to go on “Sesame Street,” so it’s going to be tough.

Sebelius: But just remember, Elmo has no elbows, if you get to go.

Becerra: I think probably what I will think of most is that I had had a chance to be in the White House and meet with the president in the Oval Office and the rest as a of member of Congress and so forth. When I went in, and it was because things were kind of dire with the kids at the border, and I knew I was going to get a whiplash after the meeting — it wasn’t fun at the time, but walking out, you know, it’s the kind of thing you think of, you know, “West Wing” kind of thing. You actually got the — president sat at the table, I was the guy that sat across from him. Everybody else was to the sides. You know, for a kid who was the first in his family to go to college, Dad didn’t get past the sixth grade, Mom didn’t come here till she was 18, when she came from Guadalajara, Jalisco, Mexico. It was pretty cool.

Rovner: So I could go on all night, but I think we’re not supposed to. So I want to ask you all one last question, which is, regardless of party affiliation, what is one piece of advice you would give to a successor as HHS secretary? Why don’t you start?

Becerra: Gosh, don’t start with me because I’m still there, so —

Rovner: All right.

Azar: I’m going to plagiarize and I’m going to give you the advice I wish Donna Shalala had given me before I took the job. But I would give it to any successor, which: She told me, “Do not take the job unless you have authority over personnel. Refuse to take the job unless you have control over who’s working, because people is policy and you have to be able to control the ethics, the tone, the culture of the organization. And people are that, and you need to have that authority.” And ever really since the Reagan administration, the Office of Presidential Personnel has just been this vortex of power that controls all political appointees at Cabinet departments. And I think if the president really wants you, you need to strike a deal that says, at a minimum, I’ve got veto or firing rights.

Sebelius: I think my advice would be the advice you give to a lot of employees who work in the private sector or public sector is, Make sure you’re aligned with the mission of the CEO, so in this case the president. I mean, don’t take the job because it’s cool and you’ll be a Cabinet member, because then it will be miserable. And with HHS, recognize the incredible assets across this agency. It is the most dazzling workforce I’ve ever had an opportunity to be with — the brightest people of all shapes, sizes, backgrounds, who taught me so much every day — and just cherish and relish your opportunity to be there, even for a short period of time. It’s miraculous.

Becerra: So I’d agree with Alex: Assemble your team. And it really is, because Kathleen mentioned it, it’s a very small group that actually you get to bring in, or even the administration gets to bring in, because most of the folks are civil service, so it’s only a fraction of the people that are going to be new. But your inner circle, the team that’s going to sort of be there and guide you and tell you what’s truth, they’ve got to be your team, because someone’s got to have your back. But I’d also say, know your reach, because as Kathleen said, this is not the Azar administration or the Sebelius administration, the Becerra administration. It’s the administration of the guy who got elected. And at the end of the day, the president gets to make the call. So as much as you may want to do something, you’ve got to know your reach.

Rovner: Well, I want to thank you all. I hope the audience had half as much fun as I did doing this. Let’s do it again next year. Thank you, all. OK, that’s our show for this week. As always, if you enjoy the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left a review; that helps other people find us, too. Special thanks, as always, and particularly this week, to our producer, Francis Ying. Also as always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org. Or you can tweet me. I’m @jrovner. We’ll be back in your feed from Washington next week. Until then, be healthy.

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As hot days become more extreme and common, California education researchers are urging that school districts be required to develop heat plans to keep students safe, just as they have policies for severe storms and active shooters.

A policy brief published last month by the UCLA Luskin Center for Innovation offers a series of recommendations on how education and building codes can help schools become more heat-resilient in the face of global warming. State Sen. Caroline Menjivar, a Democrat, introduced legislation this year requiring schools to have heat plans by 2027, and another bill would make it easier for schools to create more shaded spaces.

“Obviously, the California Education Board wasn’t set up to think about climate change. But now that climate change is a reality, virtually every sector is going to have to think about it,” said V. Kelly Turner, an urban planning associate professor and the director of the Luskin Center.

The center’s recommendations include steps such as setting an indoor temperature limit, documenting the air-conditioning and shade infrastructure of each school, and investing in shade and greenery for play areas. The brief also calls out areas needing more research, such as the safest indoor temperature range.

The best way to keep kids cool is perhaps the most obvious: providing shade, which can reduce the heat stress experienced throughout the day by 25% to 35%, according to the Luskin Center.

That requires reconfiguring playgrounds to make them cooler, said Perry Sheffield, a pediatrician and an environmental medicine researcher at Mount Sinai in New York City. In addition to shade, swapping heat-absorbing materials like asphalt and rubber for grass and wood chips helps cool things down.

“The more we can encourage play as well as physical activity, the healthier our kids are going to be, so figuring out a way to do that safely is really key,” said Sheffield.

On a playground in the San Fernando Valley, Turner said, she once measured 145-degree asphalt and 162-degree rubber — hot enough to cause a third-degree burn in seconds.

California already has millions of dollars of grant funding available for greening schoolyards and increasing tree canopy, such as the Urban and Community Forestry grants through Cal Fire that set a goal to shade at least 30% of school campuses.

To help schools make the best use of funding for extra trees, Turner and her graduate student Morgan Rogers are modeling how increasing the tree canopy to 30% can affect heat stress. They will compare different tree configurations, like dispersed or clustered, and hope to issue recommendations this fall.

Legislators in Sacramento are also looking at amending state building codes to make it easier for schools to install shade structures. Currently, the rules require that an additional 20% of the budget be spent on any new construction or renovation to make an accessible path to the completed project. The bill would add an exception for free-standing shade structures.

Schools would still be required to meet accessibility requirements, but installing a shade structure wouldn’t trigger additional construction. “That’s what we are asking, not to be exempted from those requirements, but to not put the burden on the shade structure,” said Mark Hovatter, chief facilities executive of the Los Angeles Unified School District.

Menjivar said she was excited to see the new UCLA research. Her bill would require the state Department of Education to develop a template for schools to follow in creating their own heat plans, which would have to be completed by 2025 for implementation in 2027. The bill recently passed the state Senate and is now being considered in the Assembly.

Schools outside California are also reckoning with the heat. Researchers at Arizona State University partnered with public health experts and school leaders last spring to develop guidelines for “HeatReady Schools.” The 30 recommendations span topics like school policy (e.g., access to a health professional), the environment (shade coverage on at least half the playground), and training (workshops on identifying heat illness).

The program is working with 35 schools and community centers in Phoenix, with plans to expand to all of Maricopa County by 2026.

Preparing for the warming climate is front of mind for Principal Brad Rumble at Esperanza Elementary School in Los Angeles. The school’s heat-resilience efforts started with filling empty tree wells in front of the campus in 2014. Now, the school boasts a shaded courtyard and a native plant garden, and, courtesy of a grant from the district, more trees are on the way.

“We work together to make sure that our students’ needs are addressed on hot days,” Rumble said. “And, certainly, as more shade becomes available on this campus, we will be able to address those needs even better.”

This article was produced by KFF Health News, which publishes California Healthline, an editorially independent service of the California Health Care Foundation. 

KFF Health News is a national newsroom that produces in-depth journalism about health issues and is one of the core operating programs at KFF—an independent source of health policy research, polling, and journalism. Learn more about KFF.

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This story can be republished for free (details).