Ohio Republican Sen. JD Vance and Minnesota Democratic Gov. Tim Walz met in an Oct. 1 vice presidential debate hosted by CBS News that was cordial and heavy on policy discussion — a striking change from the Sept. 10 debate between Vice President Kamala Harris and former President Donald Trump. 

Vance and Walz acknowledged occasional agreement on policy points and respectfully addressed each other throughout the debate. But they were more pointed in their attacks on their rival’s running mate for challenges facing the country, including immigration and inflation.

The moderators, “CBS Evening News” anchor Norah O’Donnell and “Face the Nation” host Margaret Brennan, had said they planned to encourage candidates to fact-check each other, but sometimes clarified statements from the candidates.

After Vance made assertions about Springfield, Ohio, being overrun by “illegal immigrants,” Brennan pointed out that a large number of Haitian immigrants in Springfield, Ohio, are in the country legally. Vance objected and, eventually, CBS exercised the debate ground rule that allowed the network to cut off the candidates’ microphones.

Most points were not fact-checked in real time by the moderators. Vance resurfaced a recent health care theme — that as president, Donald Trump sought to save the Affordable Care Act — and acknowledged that he would support a national abortion ban.

Walz described how health care looked before the ACA compared with today. Vance offered details about Trump’s health care “concepts of a plan” — a reference to comments Trump made during the presidential debate that drew jeers and criticism for the former president, who for years said he had a plan to replace the ACA that never surfaced. Vance pointed to regulatory changes advanced during the Trump administration, used weedy phrases like “reinsurance regulations,” and floated the idea of allowing states “to experiment a little bit on how to cover both the chronically ill but the non-chronically ill.”

Walz responded with a quick quip: “Here’s where being an old guy gives you some history. I was there at the creation of the ACA.” He said that before then insurers had more power to kick people off their plans. Then he detailed Trump’s efforts to undo the ACA as well as why the law’s preexisting condition protections were important.

“What Sen. Vance just explained might be worse than a concept, because what he explained is pre-Obamacare,” Walz said.

The candidates sparred on numerous topics. Our PolitiFact partners fact-checked the debate here and on their live blog.

The health-related excerpts follow.

The Affordable Care Act:

Vance: “Donald Trump could have destroyed the [Affordable Care Act]. Instead, he worked in a bipartisan way to ensure that Americans had access to affordable care.”

False.

As president, Trump worked to undermine and repeal the Affordable Care Act. He cut millions of dollars in federal funding for ACA outreach and navigators who help people sign up for health coverage. He enabled the sale of short-term health plans that don’t comply with the ACA consumer protections and allowed them to be sold for longer durations, which siphoned people away from the health law’s marketplaces.

Trump’s administration also backed state Medicaid waivers that imposed first-ever work requirements, reducing enrollment. He also ended insurance company subsidies that helped offset costs for low-income enrollees. He backed an unsuccessful repeal of the landmark 2010 health law and he backed the demise of a penalty imposed for failing to purchase health insurance.

Affordable Care Act enrollment declined by more than 2 million people during Trump’s presidency, and the number of uninsured Americans rose by 2.3 million, including 726,000 children, from 2016 to 2019, the U.S. Census Bureau reported; that includes three years of Trump’s presidency.  The number of insured Americans rose again during the Biden administration.

Abortion and Reproductive Health:

Vance: “As I read the Minnesota law that [Walz] signed into law … it says that a doctor who presides over an abortion where the baby survives, the doctor is under no obligation to provide lifesaving care to a baby who survives a botched late-term abortion.”

False.

Experts said cases in which a baby is born following an attempted abortion are rare. Less than 1% of abortions nationwide occur in the third trimester. And infanticide, the crime of killing a child within a year of its birth, is illegal in every state.

In May 2023, Walz, as Minnesota governor, signed legislation updating a state law for “infants who are born alive.” It said babies are “fully recognized” as human people and therefore protected under state law. The change did not alter regulations that already required doctors to provide patients with appropriate care.

Previously, state law said, “All reasonable measures consistent with good medical practice, including the compilation of appropriate medical records, shall be taken by the responsible medical personnel to preserve the life and health of the born alive infant.” The law was updated to instead say medical personnel must “care for the infant who is born alive.”

When there are fetal anomalies that make it likely the fetus will die before or soon after birth, some parents decide to terminate the pregnancy by inducing childbirth so that they can hold their dying baby, Democratic Minnesota state Sen. Erin Maye Quade told PolitiFact in September.

This update to the law means infants who are “born alive” receive appropriate medical care dependent on the pregnancy’s circumstances, Maye Quade said.

Vance supported a national abortion ban before becoming Trump’s running mate.

CBS News moderator Margaret Brennan told Vance, “You have supported a federal ban on abortion after 15 weeks. In fact, you said if someone can’t support legislation like that, quote, ‘you are making the United States the most barbaric pro-abortion regime anywhere in the entire world.’ My question is, why have you changed your position?”

Vance said that he “never supported a national ban” and, instead, previously supported setting “some minimum national standard.”

But in a January 2022 podcast interview, Vance said, “I certainly would like abortion to be illegal nationally.” In November, he told reporters that “we can’t give in to the idea that the federal Congress has no role in this matter.”

Since joining the Trump ticket, Vance has aligned his abortion rhetoric to match Trump’s and has said that abortion legislation should be left up to the states.

— Samantha Putterman of PolitiFact, on the live blog

A woman’s 2022 death in Georgia following the state passing its six-week abortion ban was deemed “preventable.”

Walz talked about the death of 28-year-old Amber Thurman, a Georgia woman who died after her care was delayed because of the state’s six-week abortion law. A judge called the law unconstitutional this week.

A Sept. 16 ProPublica report found that Thurman had taken abortion pills and encountered a rare complication. She sought care at Piedmont Henry Hospital in Atlanta to clear excess fetal tissue from her uterus, called a dilation and curettage, or D&C. The procedure is commonly used in abortions, and any doctor who violated Georgia’s law could be prosecuted and face up to a decade in prison.

Doctors waited 20 hours to finally operate, when Thurman’s organs were already failing, ProPublica reported. A panel of health experts tasked with examining pregnancy-related deaths to improve maternal health deemed Thurman’s death “preventable,” according to the report, and said the hospital’s delay in performing the procedure had a “large” impact.

— Samantha Putterman of PolitiFact, on the live blog

What Project 2025 Says About Some Forms of Contraception, Fertility Treatments

Walz said that Project 2025 would “make it more difficult, if not impossible, to get contraception and limit access, if not eliminate access, to fertility treatments.”

Mostly False. The Project 2025 document doesn’t call for restricting standard contraceptive methods, such as birth control pills, but it defines emergency contraceptives as “abortifacients” and says they should be eliminated from the Affordable Care Act’s covered preventive services. Emergency contraception, such as Plan B and ella, are not considered abortifacients, according to medical experts.

PolitiFact did not find any mention of in vitro fertilization throughout the document, or specific recommendations to curtail the practice in the U.S., but it contains language that supports legal rights for fetuses and embryos. Experts say this language can threaten family planning methods, including IVF and some forms of contraception.

— Samantha Putterman of PolitiFact, on the live blog

Walz: “Their Project 2025 is gonna have a registry of pregnancies.”

False. 

Project 2025 recommends that states submit more detailed abortion reporting to the federal government. It calls for more information about how and when abortions took place, as well as other statistics for miscarriages and stillbirths.

The manual does not mention, nor call for, a new federal agency tasked with registering pregnant women.

Fentanyl and Opioids:

Vance: “Kamala Harris let in fentanyl into our communities at record levels.”

Mostly False.

Illicit fentanyl seizures have been rising for years and reached record highs under Biden’s administration. In fiscal year 2015, for example, U.S. Customs and Border Protection seized 70 pounds of fentanyl. As of August 2024, agents have seized more than 19,000 pounds of fentanyl in fiscal year 2024, which ended in September.

But these are fentanyl seizures — not the amount of the narcotic being “let” into the United States. 

Vance made this claim while criticizing Harris’ immigration policies. But fentanyl enters the U.S. through the southern border mainly at official ports of entry. It’s mostly smuggled in by U.S. citizens, according to the U.S. Sentencing Commission. Most illicit fentanyl in the U.S. comes from Mexico made with chemicals from Chinese labs.

Drug policy experts have said that the illicit fentanyl crisis began years before Biden’s administration and that Biden’s border policies are not to blame for overdose deaths. 

Experts have also said Congress plays a role in reducing illicit fentanyl. Congressional funding for more vehicle scanners would help law enforcement seize more of the fentanyl that comes into the U.S. Harris has called for increased enforcement against illicit fentanyl use.

Walz: “And the good news on this is, is the last 12 months saw the largest decrease in opioid deaths in our nation’s history.”

Mostly True.

Overdose deaths involving opioids decreased from an estimated 84,181 in 2022 to 81,083 in 2023, based on the most recent provisional data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. This decrease, which took place in the second half of 2023, followed a 67% increase in opioid-related deaths between 2017 and 2023.

The U.S. had an estimated 107,543 drug overdose deaths in 2023 — a 3% decrease from the 111,029 deaths estimated in 2022. This is the first annual decrease in overall drug overdose deaths since 2018. Nevertheless, the opioid death toll remains much higher than just a few years ago, according to KFF. 

More Health-Related Comments:

Vance Said ‘Hospitals Are Overwhelmed.’ Local Officials Disagree.

We asked health officials ahead of the debate what they thought about Vance’s claims about Springfield’s emergency rooms being overwhelmed.

“This claim is not accurate,” said Chris Cook, health commissioner for Springfield’s Clark County.

Comparison data from the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services tracks how many patients are “left without being seen” as part of its effort to characterize whether ERs are able to handle their patient loads. High percentages usually signal that the facility doesn’t have the staff or resources to provide timely and effective emergency care.

Cook said that the full-service hospital, Mercy Health Springfield Regional Medical Center, reports its emergency department is at or better than industry standard when it comes to this metric.

In July 2024, 3% of Mercy Health’s patients were counted in the “left-without-being-seen” category — the same level as both the state and national average for high-volume hospitals. In July 2019, Mercy Health tallied 2% of patients who “left without being seen.” That year, the state and national averages were 1% and 2%, respectively.  Another CMS 2024 data point shows Mercy Health patients spent less time in the ER per visit on average — 152 minutes — compared with state and national figures: 183 minutes and 211 minutes, respectively. Even so, Springfield Regional Medical Center’s Jennifer Robinson noted that Mercy Health has seen high utilization of women’s health, emergency, and primary care services. 

— Stephanie Armour, Holly Hacker, and Stephanie Stapleton of KFF Health News, on the live blog

Minnesota’s Paid Leave Takes Effect in 2026

Walz signed paid family leave into law in 2023 and it will take effect in 2026.

The law will provide employees up to 12 weeks of paid medical leave and up to 12 weeks of paid family leave, which includes bonding with a child, caring for a family member, supporting survivors of domestic violence or sexual assault, and supporting active-duty deployments. A maximum 20 weeks are available in a benefit year if someone takes both medical and family leave.

Minnesota used a projected budget surplus to jump-start the program; funding will then shift to a payroll tax split between employers and workers. 

— Amy Sherman of PolitiFact, on the live blog

KFF Health News is a national newsroom that produces in-depth journalism about health issues and is one of the core operating programs at KFF—an independent source of health policy research, polling, and journalism. Learn more about KFF.

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The Host

Julie Rovner
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Julie Rovner is chief Washington correspondent and host of KFF Health News’ weekly health policy news podcast, “What the Health?” A noted expert on health policy issues, Julie is the author of the critically praised reference book “Health Care Politics and Policy A to Z,” now in its third edition.

Congress has left Washington for the campaign trail, but after the Nov. 5 general election lawmakers will have to complete work on the annual spending bills for the fiscal year that starts Oct. 1. While the GOP had hoped to push spending decisions into 2025, Democrats forced a short-term spending patch that’s set to expire before Christmas.

Meanwhile, on the campaign trail, abortion continues to be among the hottest issues. Democrats are pressing their advantage with women voters while Republicans struggle — with apparently mixed effects — to neutralize it.

This week’s panelists are Julie Rovner of KFF Health News, Joanne Kenen of Politico and the Johns Hopkins schools of nursing and public health, Alice Miranda Ollstein of Politico, and Lauren Weber of The Washington Post.

Panelists

Joanne Kenen
Johns Hopkins University and Politico

@JoanneKenen

Read Joanne's stories.

Alice Miranda Ollstein
Politico

@AliceOllstein

Read Alice's stories.

Lauren Weber
The Washington Post

@LaurenWeberHP

Read Lauren's stories.

Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:

• When Congress returns after the election, there’s a chance lawmakers could then make progress on government spending and more consensus health priorities, like expanding telehealth access. After all, after the midterm elections in 2022, Congress passed federal patient protections against surprise medical billing.
• As Election Day approaches, Democrats are banging the drum on health care — which polls show is a winning issue for the party with voters. This week, Democrats made a last push to extend Affordable Care Act subsidies expanded during the pandemic — an issue that will likely drag into next year in the face of Republican opposition.
• The outcry over the first reported deaths tied to state abortion bans seems to be resonating on the campaign trail. With some states offering the chance to weigh in on abortion access via ballot measures, advocates are telling voters: These tragedies are examples of what happens when you leave abortion access to the states.
• And Sen. Bernie Sanders of Vermont summoned the chief executive of Novo Nordisk before the health committee he chairs this week to demand accountability for high drug prices. Despite centering on a campaign issue, the hearing — like other examples of pharmaceutical executives being thrust into the congressional hot seat — yielded no concessions.

Plus, for “extra credit” the panelists suggest health policy stories they read this week that they think you should read, too:

Julie Rovner: KFF Health News’ “How North Carolina Made Its Hospitals Do Something About Medical Debt,” by Noam N. Levey and Ames Alexander, The Charlotte Observer.

Lauren Weber: Stat’s “How the Next President Should Reform Medicare,” by Paul Ginsburg and Steve Lieberman. 

Joanne Kenen: The Atlantic’s “The Woo-Woo Caucus Meets,” by Elaine Godfrey. 

Alice Miranda Ollstein: Stat’s “How Special Olympics Kickstarted the Push for Better Disability Data,” by Timmy Broderick.

Also mentioned on this week’s podcast:

• KFF Health News’ “Florida’s New Covid Booster Guidance Is Straight-Up Misinformation,” by Arthur Allen, Daniel Chang, and Sam Whitehead.
• KFF Health News’ “Feds Killed Plan To Curb Medicare Advantage Overbilling After Industry Opposition,” by Fred Schulte.
• KFF Health News’ “Audits — Hidden Until Now — Reveal Millions in Medicare Advantage Overcharges,” by Fred Schulte and Holly K. Hacker.
• KFF Health News’ “ACA Plans Are Being Switched Without Enrollees’ OK,” by Julie Appleby.
• KFF Health News’ “Biden Administration Tightens Broker Access to Healthcare.gov To Thwart Rogue Sign-Ups,” by Julie Appleby.

click to open the transcript

Transcript: Congress Punts to a Looming Lame-Duck Session

[Editor’s note: This transcript was generated using both transcription software and a human’s light touch. It has been edited for style and clarity.] 

Julie Rovner: Hello, and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Julie Rovner, chief Washington correspondent for KFF Health News, and I’m joined by some of the best and smartest health reporters in Washington. We’re taping this week on Thursday, September 26th, at 10 a.m. As always, news happens fast, and things might have changed by the time you hear this. So, here we go. 

Today we are joined via teleconference by Lauren Weber of The Washington Post. 

Lauren Weber: Hello hello. 

Rovner: Alice Ollstein of Politico. 

Alice Miranda Ollstein: Good morning. 

Rovner: And Joanne Kenen of the Johns Hopkins Schools of Public Health and Nursing, and Politico. 

Joanne Kenen: Hi, everybody. 

Rovner: Big props to Emmarie for hosting last week while I was in Ann Arbor at the Michigan Daily reunion. I had a great time, but I brought back an unwelcome souvenir in the form of my first confirmed case of covid. So apologies in advance for the state of my voice. Now, let us get to the news. 

To steal a headline from Politico earlier this week, Congress lined up in punt formation, passing a continuing resolution that will require them to come back after the election for what could be a busy lame-duck session. Somebody remind us who wanted this outcome — the Let’s only do the CR through December — and who wanted it to go into next year? Come on, easy question. 

Ollstein: Well, the kicking it to right before Christmas, which sets up the stage for what we’ve seen so many times before where it just gets jammed through and people who have objections, generally conservatives who want to slash spending and add on a bunch of policy riders, which they tried and failed to do this time, will have a weaker base to operate from, given that everybody wants to go home for the holidays. 

And so once again, we’re seeing people mad at Speaker Mike Johnson, who, again and again, even though he is fully from the hard right of the party, is not catering to their priorities as much as they would like. And so obviously his speakership depends on which party wins control of the House in November. But I think even if Republicans win control, I’m already starting to hear rumblings of throwing him overboard and replacing with someone who they think will cater to them more. 

Rovner: It was so déjà vu all over again, which is, last year, as we approached October 1st and the Republican House could not pass any kind of a continuing resolution with just Republican votes, that eventually Kevin McCarthy had to turn to Democrats, and that’s how he lost his job. 

And yet that’s exactly what happened here, which is the Republicans wanted to go until March, I guess on the theory that they were betting that they would be in full power in March and would have a chance to do a lot more of what they wanted in terms of spending bills than if they just wait and do it in the lame duck. And yet the speaker doesn’t seem to be paying the same price that Kevin McCarthy did. Is that just acknowledgment on the part of the right wing that they can’t do anything with their teeny tiny majority? 

Kenen: I mean, yes, it’s pretty stalemate-y up there right now, and nobody is certain who’s going to control the House, and at this point it is likely to still be a narrow majority, whoever wins it. I mean, they’re six weeks out. Things can change. This has been an insane year. Nobody’s making predictions, but it looks like pretty divided. 

Rovner: Whoever wins isn’t going to win by much. 

Kenen: We have a pretty divided country, and the likelihood is we’re going to have a pretty divided House. So the dynamic will change depending on who’s in charge, but the Republicans are more fractious and divided right now than the Democrats, although that’s really easy to change, and even the Democrats have gone through their rambunctious divided phases, too. 

Everybody just doesn’t know what’s next, because the top of the ticket is going to change things. So the more months you push out, the less money you’re spending. If you control the CR, if you make the CR, the continuing resolution, meaning current spending levels for six months, it’s a win for the Republicans in many ways because they’re keeping — they’re preventing increases. But in terms of policy, both sides get some of the things they want extended. 

I don’t know if you can call it a productive stalemate. That’s sort of a contradiction in terms. But I mean, for the Republicans, longer, it would’ve been better. 

Rovner: So now that we know that Congress has to come back after the election, there’s obviously things that they are able to do other than just the spending bills. And I’m thinking of a lot of unfinished health legislation like the telehealth extensions and the constant, Are we going to do something about pharmacy benefit managers? which has been this bipartisan issue that they never seem to solve. 

I would remind the listeners that in 2022 after the election, that’s when they finally did the surprise-bills legislation. So doing big things in the lame duck is not unheard of. Is there anything any of you are particularly looking toward this time that might actually happen? 

Kenen: It’s something like telehealth because it’s not that controversial. I mean, it’s easiest to get something through in — in lame duck, you want to get some things off the plate that are either overdue and need to be taken care of or that you don’t want hanging over you next year. So telehealth, which is, there are questions about does it save money, et cetera, and what form it should take and how some of it should be regulated, so forth, but the basic idea, telehealth is popular. Something like that, yes. 

PBMs [pharmacy benefit managers] is a lot harder, where there is some agreement on the need to do something but there’s less agreement about what that something should look like. So although I’m not personally covering that day-to-day basis, in any sense, that’s harder. The more consensus there is and the fewer moving parts, the easier it is to do, as a rule. I mean, sometimes they do get something big done in lame duck, but a lot of it gets kicked. 

And also there’s a huge, huge, huge tax fight next year, and it’s going to require a lot of wheeling and dealing no matter what shape it takes, because it’s expiring and things have to be either renewed or allowed to die. So that’s just going to be mega-enormous, and a lot of this stuff become bargaining chips in that larger debate, and that becomes the dominant domestic policy vehicle next year. 

Rovner: Well, even before we get to the lame duck, we have to finish the campaign, which is only a month and a half away. And we are still talking about the Affordable Care Act in an election where it was not going to be a campaign issue, everybody said. 

I know that you talked last week about all the specifics of the ways former President [Donald] Trump actually tried to sabotage rather than save the ACA and all the ways what [Sen.] JD Vance was talking about on “Meet the Press,” dividing up risk pools once again so sicker people would no longer be subsidized by the less sick, would turn the clock back to the individual insurance market as it existed before 2014. 

Now the Democrats in the Senate are taking one last shot at the ACA with a bill — that will fail — to renew the expanded marketplace subsidies, so it will expire unless Congress acts by the end of next year. Might this last effort have some impact in the swing states, or is it just a lot more campaign noise? 

Weber: I think this is a lot of campaign noise, to some extent. I mean, I think Democrats are clear in polling shows that the average American voter does trust Democrats more than Republicans on ACA and health issues and health insurance. So I do think this is a messaging push in part by the Dems to speak to voters. As we all know, this is a turnout election, so I think anything that they feel like voters care about, which often has to do with their pocketbook, I think they’re going to lead the drum on. 

I do think it’s interesting again that JD Vance really is reiterating a talking point that Donald Trump used in the debate, which is that he said he had improved the ACA and many experts would say it was very much the opposite. Again, I think I did this on the last podcast, but let me reread this because I think it’s important as a fact check. Most of the Trump administration’s ACA-related actions included cutting the program. 

So they reduced millions of dollars of funding for marketing and enrollment, and he repeatedly tried to overturn the law. So I think some of the messaging around this is getting convoluted, in part because it’s an election year, to your point. 

Rovner: And because it’s popular. Because Nancy Pelosi was right. When people found out what was in it, it got popular. 

Kenen: I think there are two things. I mean, I agree with what Lauren just said, but the Democrats came out in favor of extending the subsidies yesterday, which not only changed the eligibility criteria — more people, more higher up the middle-income chain could get subsidized — but also everybody in it had extra benefits for it, including people who were already covered. But it’s better for them. 

The idea that Republicans are going to try to take that benefit away from people six weeks before an election — they were probably not. How they handle it next year? I was really surprised by the silence yesterday. The Democrats rolled out their plans for renewing this, and I didn’t see a lot of Republican pushback. So they were really quiet about it. 

The other thing that struck me is that JD Vance went on on this risk pool thing last week on “Meet the Press” and in Raleigh, in North Carolina, and then there was pushback. And on that particular point, there’s been silence for the last week. I don’t think he stuck his neck out on that one again. Who knows what next week will bring, but it didn’t continue, and nor did I hear other Republicans saying, “Yeah, let’s go do that.” 

So if that was a trial balloon, it was somewhat leaden. So I think that we really don’t know how the subsidy fight is going to play —how or when the subsidy fight will play out. It’s really, you know, we’ve all said many times before, once you give people the benefit, it’s really hard to take it away. And— 

Rovner: Although we did that with the Child Tax Credit. We gave everybody the Child Tax Credit and then took it away. 

Kenen: We did, and other things that were temporary during the pandemic, and we’ll just see how many of those temporary things do in fact go away. I mean, does it come back next year? I mean, now SALT [state and local taxes], right? I mean, Trump backed backing what’s called SALT. It’s a limit based on mortgage and state taxes. And now he’s talking about he’s going to rescue that like it wasn’t him who … So it all comes around again. 

Ollstein: Yeah, and I think what you’re seeing is both sides drawing the battle lines for next year and signaling what the core arguments are going to be. And so you had Democrats come out with their bill this year, and you are hearing a lot of Republicans in hearings and speeches sprinkled around talking about claiming that there is a huge amount of fraud in the ACA marketplaces and linking that to the subsidies and saying, Why would we continue to subsidize something where there’s all this fraud? 

I think that is going to be a big argument on that side next year for not extending the subsidies. So I would urge people to keep listening for that. 

Kenen: And that came from a conservative think tank consulting firm in which they blame — I actually happened to read it this week, so it’s fresh in my mind. They’re blaming the fraud actually on brokers rather than individuals. They’re saying that people are— 

Rovner: That was an investigation uncovered by my colleague Julie Appleby here at KFF Health News. 

Kenen: Right. And they ran with that, and they were talking about the low end of the income bracket. And I’m waiting for the sequel in which the people at the upper end of the income bracket, which is the law that’s expiring that we’re talking about, it’s pretty — I’m waiting for the sequel Paragon paper saying, See, it’s even worse at the upper end, and that’s easy to get rid of because it’ll expire. That’s the argument of the day, but there’s so many flavors of anti-ACA arguments that we’ve just scratched the beginning of this round. 

Rovner: Exactly. It’ll come back. All right, well, let us move on to abortion. Vice President [Kamala] Harris said in an interview this week that she would support ending the filibuster in the Senate in order to restore abortion rights with 51 rather than 60 votes, which has apparently cost her the endorsement of retiring West Virginia Democratic senator Joe Manchin. Was Manchin’s endorsement even that valuable to her? It’s not like West Virginia was going to vote Democratic anytime soon. 

Ollstein: The Harris campaign has really leaned into emphasizing endorsements she’s been getting from across the ideological spectrum, from as far right as Dick Cheney to more centrist types and economists and national security people. And so she’s clearly trying to brandish her centrist credentials. So I guess in that sense. But like you said, Democrats are not going to win West Virginia, and so I think also he was getting upset about something, a position she’s been voicing for years now. This is not new, this question of the filibuster. So I doubt it’ll have much of an impact. 

Kenen: It’s a real careful-what-you-wish for, because if the Senate goes Republican, which at the moment looks like it’s going to be a narrow Republican majority. We don’t know until November. There’s always a surprise. There’s always a surprise. 

Rovner: You’re right. It’s more likely that it’ll be 51-49 Republican than it’ll be 51-49 Democrat. 

Kenen: Right. So if the filibuster is going to be abolished, it would be to advance Republican conservative goals. So it’s sort of dangerous territory to walk into right now. The Democrats have played with abolishing the filibuster. They wanted to do it for voting rights issues, and they decided not to go there on legislation. They did modify it a number of years ago on judicial appointments and other Cabinet appointments and so forth. 

But legislative, the filibuster still exists. It’s very, very, very heavily used, much more than historically, by both parties, whoever is in power. So changing it would be a really radical change in how things move or don’t move. So it could have a long tail, that remark. 

Rovner: Meanwhile, Senate Democrats, who don’t have the votes now, as we know, to abolish the filibuster, because Manchin is among their one-vote margin, are continuing to press Republicans on reproductive rights issues that they think work in their favor. Earlier this week, the Senate Finance Committee had a hearing on EMTALA, the Emergency Medical Treatment and Labor Act. 

It’s a federal law that’s supposed to guarantee women access to abortion in medical emergencies. But in practice, it has not. Last week we talked about the ProPublica stories on women whose pregnancy complications actually did lead to their death. Is this something that’s breaking through as a campaign issue? I do feel like we’ve seen so much more on pregnancy complications and the health impacts of those rather than just, straight, women who want to end pregnancies. 

Ollstein: I just got back from Michigan, and I would say it is having a big impact. I was really interested in how Democrats were trying to campaign on abortion in Michigan, even now that the state does have protections. And I heard over and over from voters and candidates that Trump’s leave-it-to-the-states stance, they really are still energized by that. 

They’re not mollified by that, because they are pointing to stories like the ones that just came out in Georgia and saying: See? That’s what happens when you leave it to the states. We may be fine, but we care about more than just ourselves. We’re going to vote based on our concern for women in other states as well. I found that really interesting to be hearing out in the field. 

Rovner: Lauren, you want to add something? 

Weber: Yeah, I just was going to add, I mean, Harris obviously highlighted this effectively in the debate, and I think that has helped bring it to more of a crescendo, but there’s obviously been a lot of reporting for months on this. I mean, the AP has talked about — I think they did a count. It’s over 100 women, at least, have been denied emergency care due to laws like this. 

I’d be curious — and it sounds like Alice has this, for voters that are in swing states, that it’s breaking through to — I’d be curious how much this has siloed to people that are outraged by this, and so we’re hearing it and how much it’s skidding down to those that — the Republican talking points have been that these are rare, they don’t really happen, it’s a liberal push to get against this. I’d be curious how much it’s breaking through to folks of all stripes. 

Rovner: I watched a big chunk of the Finance Committee hearing, and the anti-abortion witnesses were saying this is not how it worked, that ectopic pregnancies, pregnancy complications do not qualify as abortions, and basically just denying that it happened. They’re sitting here. They’re sitting at the witness table with the woman to whom this happened and saying that this does not happen. So it was a little bit difficult, shall we say. Go ahead. 

Ollstein: Well, and the pushback I’ve been hearing from the anti-abortion side is less that it’s not happening and more that it’s not the fault of the laws, it’s the fault of the doctors. They are claiming that doctors are either intentionally withholding care or are wrong in their interpretation of the law and are withholding care for that reason. They’re pointing to the letter of the law and saying, Oh no, it doesn’t say let women bleed out and die, so clearly it’s fine. They’re not really grappling with the chilling effect it’s having. 

Rovner: Although we do know that in Texas when, I think it was Amanda Zurawski, there was — no, it was Kate Cox who actually got a judge to say she should be allowed to have an abortion. Ken Paxton, the Texas attorney general, then threatened the hospital, said, If you do this, I will come after you. On the one hand, they say, Well, that’s not what the law says. On the other hand, there are people saying, Yeah, that’s what the law says. 

Turning to the Republicans, Donald Trump had some more things to say about abortion this week, including that he is women’s protector and that women will, and I quote, “be happy, healthy, confident, and free. You will no longer be thinking about abortion.” 

If that wasn’t enough, in Ohio, Bernie Moreno, who’s the Republican running against Senator Sherrod Brown in the otherwise very red state, said the other night that he doesn’t understand why women over 50 would even care about abortion, since, he suggested, they can no longer get pregnant, which isn’t correct, by the way. But who exactly are the voters that Trump and Moreno are going after here? 

Kenen: Moreno is already lagging in the polls. Sherrod Brown is a pretty liberal Democrat in an increasingly conservative state, and he’s also very popular. And it looks like he’s on a glide path to win, and this probably made it easier for him to win. And there are men who support abortion rights, and there are women who oppose. 

I mean, this country’s divided on abortion, but it’s not age-related. It’s not like if you’re under 50 and female, you care about abortion and nobody else does. I mean, that’s really not the way it works. Fifty-year-old and older women, some of whom had abortions when they were younger, would want that right for younger women, including their daughters. It’s not a quadrant. It’s not like, oh, only this segment cares. 

Ollstein: It’s interesting that it comes amid Democrats really working to broaden who they consider an abortion voter, like I said, trying to encourage people in states where abortion is protected to vote for people in states where abortion is not protected and doing more outreach to men and saying this is a family issue, not just a women’s issue, and this affects everybody. 

So as you see Democrats trying to broaden their outreach and get more people to care, you have Bernie Moreno saying the opposite, saying, I don’t understand why people care when it doesn’t affect their own particular life and situation. 

Rovner: Although I will say, having listened to a bunch of interviews with undecided voters in the last couple of weeks, I do hear more and more voters saying: Well, such and such candidate, and this is on both sides, is not speaking to me. It’s almost like this election is about them individually and not about society writ large. 

And I do hear that on both sides, and it’s kind of a surprise. And I don’t know, is that maybe where Moreno is coming from? Maybe that’s what he’s hearing, too, from his pollsters? It’s only that people are most interested in their own self-interest and not about others? Lauren, you wanted to add to that? 

Weber: I mean, I would just say I think that’s a kind interpretation, Julie. I think that more likely than not, he was just speaking out of turn. And in some prior reporting I did this year on misinformation around birth control and contraception, I spoke to a bunch of women legislators, I believe it was in Idaho, who found that in speaking with their male legislator friends, that a lot of them were uncomfortable talking about abortion, birth control, et cetera, which led to a lot of these misconceptions. And I wonder if we’re seeing that here. 

Ollstein: Just quickly, I think it’s also reflective of a particular conservative mind-set. I mean, it reminds me of when I was covering the Obamacare fight in Congress and you had Republican lawmakers making jokes about, Oh, well, wouldn’t want to lose coverage for my mammograms. And just what we were just talking about, about the separate risk pools and saying, Oh, I’m healthy. Why should I subsidize a sick person? when that’s literally how insurance works. 

But I think just the very individualistic go-it-alone, rugged-individual mind-set is coming out here in different ways. And so it seems like he did not want this particular comment to be scrutinized as it is getting now, but I think we hear versions of this from conservative lawmakers all the time in terms of, Why should I have to care about, pay for, subsidize, et cetera, other people in society? 

Rovner: Yeah, there’s a lot of that. Well, finally this week in reproductive health issues that never seem to go away, a federal judge in North Dakota this week slapped an injunction on the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission’s enforcement of some provisions of the 2022 Pregnant Workers Fairness Act, ruling that Catholic employers, including for-profit Catholic-owned entities, don’t have to provide workers with time off for abortions or fertility treatments that violate the church’s teachings. 

Now, lest you think this only applies to North Dakota, it does not. There’s a long way to go before this ruling is made permanent, but it’s kind of awkward timing for Republicans when they’re trying to convince voters of their strong support of IVF [in vitro fertilization], and yet here we have a large Catholic entity saying, We don’t even want to give our workers time off for IVF. 

Ollstein: Yeah, I think you’ve been hearing a lot of Republicans scoffing at the idea that anyone would oppose IVF, when there are many, many conservatives who do either oppose it in its entirety or oppose certain ways that it is currently commonly practiced. You had the Southern Baptist Convention vote earlier this year in opposition to IVF. You have these Catholic groups who are suing over it. 

And so I think there needs to be a real reckoning with the level of opposition there is on the right, and I think that’s why you’re seeing an interesting response to Trump’s promise for free IVF for all and whether or not that is feasible. I think this shows that it would get a lot of pushback from groups on the right if they were ever to pursue that. 

Rovner: Yeah, I will also note that this was a Trump-appointed judge, which is pretty … The EEOC, when they were doing these final regulations, acknowledged that there will be cases of religious employers and that they will look at those on a case-by-case basis. But this is a pretty sweeping ruling that basically says, we’re back to the Hobby Lobby Supreme Court case: If you don’t believe in something, you don’t have to do it. 

I mean, that’s essentially where we are with this, and we will see as this moves forward. Well, moving on to another big election issue, drug prices, the CEO of Novo Nordisk, makers of the blockbuster obesity and diabetes drugs Ozempic and Wegovy, appeared at the Senate Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee on Tuesday in front of Senator Bernie Sanders, who has been one of their top critics. 

And maybe it’s just my covid-addled brain, but I watched this hearing and I couldn’t make heads or tails of how Lars Jørgensen, the CEO, tried to explain why either the differences between prices in the U.S. and other countries for these drugs weren’t really that big, or how the prices here are actually the fault of PBMs, not his company. Was anybody able to follow this? It was super confusing, I will say, that he tried to … 

First he says that, well, 80% of the people with insurance coverage can get these drugs for $25 a month or less, which I’m pretty sure only applies to people who are using it for diabetes, not for obesity, because I think most insurers aren’t covering it for obesity. And there was much backing and forthing about how much it costs and how much we pay and how much it would cost the country to actually allow people, everybody who’s eligible for these drugs, to use them. And no real response. I mean, this is a big-deal campaign issue, and yet I feel like this hearing was something of a bust. 

Weber: I mean, do we really expect a CEO of a highly profitable drug to promise to reduce it immediately on the spot? I mean, I guess I’m not surprised that the hearing was a back-and-forth. From what I understand of what happened, I mean, most hearings with folks that have highly lucrative drugs, they’re not looking to give away pieces of the lucrative drugs. So I think to some extent we come back to that. 

But I did think what was interesting about the hearing itself was that Sanders did confront him with promises from PBMs that they would be able to offer these drugs and not short the American consumer, which was actually a fascinating tactic on Sanders part. But again, what did we really walk away with? I’m not sure that we know. 

Rovner: Yeah, I mean, even if you were interested in this issue — and I’m interested in this issue and I know this issue better than the average person, as I said —I literally could not follow it. I found it super frustrating. I mean, I know what Sanders was going for here. I just don’t feel like he got what he was hoping to. I don’t know. Maybe he was hoping to get the CEO to say, “We’ve been awful, and so many people need this drug, and we’re going to cut the price tomorrow.” And yes, you point out, Lauren, that did not happen. But we shall see. 

Well, speaking of PBMs, the Federal Trade Commission late last week filed an administrative complaint against the nation’s three largest PBMs, accusing them of inflating insulin prices and steering patients toward higher-cost products so they, the PBMs, can make more money, which is, of course, the big problem with PBMs, which is that they get a piece of the action. So the more expensive the drug, the bigger the piece of the action that they get. 

I was most interested in the fact that the FTC’s three Democratic appointees voted in favor of the legal action. Its two Republican appointees didn’t vote but actually recused themselves. This whole PBM issue is kind of awkward for Republicans who say they want to fight high drug prices, isn’t it? I feel like the whole PBM issue, which, as we said, is something that Congress in theory wants to get to during the lame-duck session, is tricky. 

I mean, it’s less tricky for Democrats who can just demagogue it and a little bit more tricky for Republicans who tend to have more support from both the drug industry and the insurance industry and the PBM industry. How much can they say they want to fight high drug prices without irritating the people with whom they are allied? 

Kenen: And the PBMs themselves are owned by insurers. The pharmaceutical drug pricing, it’s really, really, really confusing, right? 

Rovner: Nobody understands it. 

Kenen: The four of us, none of us cover pharma full time, but the four of us are all pretty sophisticated health care reporters. And if we had to take a final exam on the drug industry, none of us would probably get an A-plus. So I’d be surprised if they figure this out in lame duck. I mean, they could —there’s always the possibility that when they look at the outcome of things, they decide: We do need to cut a deal and get this off the plate. This is the best we’re going to get. We’re going to be in a worse position next month. And they do it. 

But it just seems really sticky and complicated, and it doesn’t feel like it’s totally jelled yet to the point that they can move it. I would expect this to spill into next year. If a deal comes through, if a big budget deal comes through at the end of the year, it does have a lot of trade-offs and moving parts, and this could, in fact, get wrapped into it. 

If I had to guess, I would say it’s more likely to spill into the following year, but maybe they’ve decided they’ve had enough and want to tie the bow on it and move on. And then it’ll go to court and we’ll spend the next year talking about the court fight against the PBM law. So it’s not going to be gone one way or another, and nor are high drug prices going to be gone one way or another. 

Rovner: The issue that keeps on giving. Well, finally this week, a new entry in out This Week in Health Misinformation segment from, surprise, Florida. This is a story from my KFF Health News colleagues Arthur Allen, Daniel Chang, and Sam Whitehead. And the headline kind of says it all: “Florida’s New Covid Booster Guidance Is Straight-Up Misinformation.” 

This is the continuing saga involving the state surgeon general, Joseph Ladapo, who’s been talking down the mRNA covid vaccine for several years now and is recommending that people at high risk from covid not get the latest booster. What surprised me about this story, though, was how reluctant other health leaders in Florida, including the Florida Medical Association, have been to call the surgeon general out on this. 

I guess to avoid angering his boss, Republican governor Ron DeSantis, who’s known to respond to criticism with retribution. Anybody else surprised by the lack of pushback to this there in Florida? Lauren? 

Weber: No, I’m not really surprised. I mean, we’ve seen the same thing over and over and over again. I mean, this is the man who really didn’t make a push to vaccinate against measles when there was an outbreak. He has previously stated that seniors over 65 should not get an mRNA vaccine, with misinformation about DNA fragments. We’ve seen this pattern over and over again. 

He is a bit of a rogue state public health officer in a crew that usually everyone else is on pretty much the same page, whether or not they’re red- or blue-state public health officers. And I think what’s interesting about this story and what continues to be interesting is as we see RFK [Robert F. Kennedy Jr.] gaining influence, obviously, in Trump’s potential health picks, you do wonder if this is a bit of a tryout. Although Ladapo is tied to DeSantis, who Trump obviously has feelings about. So who knows there. But it very clearly is the politicization of public health writ large. 

Kenen: And DeSantis, during the beginning of the pandemic, he disagreed with the CDC [Centers for Disease Control and Prevention] guidelines about who should get vaccinated, but he did push them for older people. And I think that was his cutoff. If you’re 15 up, you should have them. He was quite negative from the start on under. Florida’s vaccination rates for the older population back when they rolled out in late 2020, early 2021, were not — they were fairly high. And there’s been a change of tone. As the political base became more anti-vax, so did the Florida state government. 

Rovner: And obviously, Florida, full of older people who vote. So, I mean, super-important constituency there. Well, we will watch that space. All right, that is this week’s news. Now it is time for our extra credits. That’s when we each recommend a story we read this week we think you should read, too. Don’t worry if you miss the details. We will include links to all these stories in our show notes on your phone or other device. Joanne, why don’t you go first this week? 

Kenen: Elaine Godfrey in the Atlantic has a story called “The Woo-Woo Caucus Meets,” and it’s about a four-hour summit on the Hill with RFK Jr., moderated by Senator Ron Johnson of Wisconsin, who also has some unconventional ideas about vaccination and public health. The writer called it the “crunch-ificiation of conservatism.” 

It was the merging of the anti-vax pharma-skeptic left and the Trump right and RFK Jr. talking about MAHA, Making America Healthy Again, and his priorities for what he expects to be a leading figure in some capacity in a Trump administration fixing our health. It was a really fun — just a little bit of sarcasm in that story, but it was a good read. 

Rovner: Yeah, and I would point out that this goes, I mean, back more than two decades, which is that the anti-vax movement has always been this combination of the far left and the far right. 

Kenen: But it’s changed now. I mean, the medical liberty movement, medical freedom movement and the libertarian streak has changed. It started changing before covid, but it’s not the same as it was a few years ago. It’s much more conservative-dominated, or conservative-slash-libertarian-dominated. 

Rovner: Alice. 

Ollstein: I have an interesting story from Stat. It’s called “How Special Olympics Kickstarted the Push for Better Disability Data.” It’s about how the Special Olympics, which just happened, over the years have helped shine a light on just how many people with developmental and intellectual disabilities just aren’t getting the health care that they need and aren’t even getting recognized as having those disabilities. 

And the data we’re using today comes from the Clinton administration still. It’s way out of date. So there have been improvements because of these programs like Healthy Athletes that have been launched around this, but it’s still nowhere near good enough. And so this was a really fascinating story on that front and on a population that’s really falling through the cracks. 

Rovner: It really was. Lauren. 

Weber: I actually picked an opinion piece in Stat that’s called, quote, “How the Next President Should Reform Medicare,” by Paul Ginsburg and Steve Lieberman. And I want to give a shoutout to my former colleague Fred Schulte, who basically has single-handedly revealed — and now, obviously, there’s been a lot of fall-on coverage — but he was really beating this drum first, how much Medicare Advantage is overbilling the government. 

And Fred, through a lot of FOIAs [Freedom of Information Act requests] — and KFF has sued to get access to these documents — has shown that, through government audits, the government’s being charged billions and billions of dollars more than it should be to pay for Medicare Advantage, which was billed as better than Medicare and a free-market solution and so on. But the reality is … 

Rovner: It was billed as cheaper than Medicare. 

Weber: And billed as cheaper. 

Rovner: Which it’s not. 

Weber: It’s not. And this opinion piece is really fascinating because it says, look, no presidential candidate wants to talk about changing Medicare, because all the folks that want to vote usually have Medicare. But something that you really could do to reduce Medicare costs is getting a handle around these Medicare Advantage astronomical sums. And I just want to shout out Fred, because I really think this kind of opinion piece is possible due to his tireless coverage to really dig into what’s some really wonky stuff that reveals a lot of money. 

Rovner: Yes, I feel like we don’t talk about Medicare Advantage enough, and we will change that at some point in the not-too-distant future. All right, well, my story is from KFF Health News from my colleague Noam Levey, along with Ames Alexander of the Charlotte Observer. It’s called “How North Carolina Made Its Hospitals Do Something About Medical Debt.” 

Those of you who are regular listeners may remember back in August when we talked about the federal government approving North Carolina’s unique new program to have hospitals forgive medical debt in exchange for higher Medicaid payments. It turns out that getting that deal with the state hospitals was a lot harder than it looked, and this piece tells the story in pretty vivid detail about how it all eventually got done. It is quite the tale and well worth your time. 

OK, that is our show for this week. As always, if you enjoy the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcast. We’d appreciate it if you left us a review. That helps other people find us, too. Special thanks as always to our technical guru, Francis Ying, and our editor, Emmarie Huetteman. Also, as always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org, or you can still find me at X. I’m @jrovner. Lauren, where are you? 

Weber: I’m still on X @LaurenWeberHP. 

Rovner: Alice? 

Ollstein: On X at @AliceOllstein. 

Rovner: Joanne? 

Kenen: X @JoanneKenen and Threads @JoanneKenen1. 

Rovner: We will be back in your feed next week. Until then, be healthy. 

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Audio producer

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Editor

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Tim Sheehy “would let politicians like him ban abortion, with no exceptions for rape or to save a woman’s life, and criminalize women.”

A Facebook ad from the campaign of Sen. Jon Tester (D-Mont.), launched on Sept. 6, 2024

In a race that could decide control of the U.S. Senate, Sen. Jon Tester (D-Mont.) is attacking his challenger, Republican Tim Sheehy, for his stance on abortion. 

Montana’s Senate race is one of a half-dozen tight contests around the country in which Democrats are defending seats needed to keep their one-seat majority. If Republicans flip Tester’s seat, they could take over the chamber even if they fail to oust Democrats in any other key races.

In a series of Facebook ads launched in early September, Tester’s campaign said Sheehy supports banning abortion with no exceptions.

An ad launched on Sept. 6 said, “Tim Sheehy wants to take away the freedom to choose what happens with your own body, and give that power to politicians. Sheehy would let politicians like him ban abortion, with no exceptions for rape or to save a woman’s life, and criminalize women. We can’t let Tim Sheehy take our freedom away.”

Sheehy’s Anti-Abortion Stance Allows for Rape, Health Exceptions

Sheehy’s website calls him “proudly pro-life,” and he’s campaigning against abortion. He opposes a measure on Montana’s November ballot that would amend the Montana Constitution to provide the right to “make and carry out decisions about one’s own pregnancy, including the right to abortion.”

In July, we rated False Sheehy’s statement that Tester and other Democrats have voted for “elective abortions up to and including the moment of birth. Healthy, 9-month-year-old baby killed at the moment of birth.”

But contrary to the new ad’s message, Sheehy has voiced support for exceptions.

In a Montana Public Radio interview in May, Sheehy was asked, “Yes or no, do you support a federal ban on abortion?” 

Sheehy said, “I am proudly pro-life and support commonsense protections for when a baby can feel pain, as well as exceptions for rape, incest, and the life of the mother, and I believe any further limits must be left to each state.”

And in a June debate with Tester, Sheehy said, “I’ll always protect the three rights for women: rape, incest, life of the mother.”

The issues section of Sheehy’s campaign website does not say that he has a no-exceptions stance, nor does it say he would “criminalize women” who have abortions.

In a statement, the Sheehy campaign told PolitiFact that the ad mischaracterizes Sheehy’s abortion position. Allowing no exceptions “has never been Tim’s position,” the campaign said.

Our Ruling

The Tester campaign’s ad says Sheehy “would let politicians like him ban abortion, with no exceptions for rape or to save a woman’s life, and criminalize women.” 

Sheehy has said he supports abortion ban exceptions for rape or to save a pregnant woman’s life. We found no instances of him saying he would be OK with states criminalizing women who receive abortions in violation of state laws.

What gives the ad a kernel of truth is that Sheehy has voiced support for letting states decide abortion parameters within their borders. The Tester campaign argues that this means Sheehy would effectively enable legislators to pass abortion restrictions that don’t include exceptions or that criminalize women.

The Tester campaign’s argument relies on hypotheticals and ignores Sheehy’s stated support for exceptions, giving a misleading impression of Sheehy’s position.

We rate it Mostly False.

Our Sources

Jon Tester, Facebook ad, Sept. 6, 2024

Tim Sheehy, campaign issues page, accessed Sept. 12, 2024

KFF, “Policy Tracker: Exceptions to State Abortion Bans and Early Gestational Limits,” last updated July 29, 2024

Montana Public Radio, “Q&A: Tim Sheehy, Republican Candidate for U.S. Senate,” May 15, 2024 

Montana Senate debate (excerpt), June 9, 2024

Last Best Place PAC, “choice” web page, accessed Sept. 12, 2024

Montana Republican Party, 2024 platform, accessed Sept. 12. 2024

Daily Montanan, “Sheehy criticizes ballot measures, including initiative to protect abortion,” Aug. 22, 2024

Sabato’s Crystal Ball, “Where Abortion Rights Will (or Could) Be on the Ballot,” July 9, 2024

Heartland Signal, “Unearthed audio shows Tim Sheehy calling abortion ‘sinful,’ wanting it to ‘end tomorrow,’” Aug. 30, 2024

Montana Independent, “Jon Tester accuses Tim Sheehy of lying about abortion during first Senate campaign debate,” June 11, 2024

Statement to PolitiFact from the Sheehy campaign

Statement to PolitiFact from the Tester campaign

KFF Health News is a national newsroom that produces in-depth journalism about health issues and is one of the core operating programs at KFF—an independent source of health policy research, polling, and journalism. Learn more about KFF.

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SIKESTON, Mo. — In 1942, Mable Cook was a teenager. She was standing on her front porch when she witnessed the lynching of Cleo Wright.

In the aftermath, Cook received advice from her father that was intended to keep her safe.

“He didn’t want us talking about it,” Cook said. “He told us to forget it.”

More than 80 years later, residents of Sikeston still find it difficult to talk about the lynching.

Conversations with Cook, one of the few remaining witnesses of the lynching, launch a discussion of the health consequences of racism and violence in the United States. Host Cara Anthony speaks with historian Eddie R. Cole and racial equity scholar Keisha Bentley-Edwards about the physical, mental, and emotional burdens on Sikeston residents and Black Americans in general.

“Oftentimes, people who experience racial trauma are forced to not acknowledge it,” Bentley-Edwards said. “They’re forced to question whether or not it happened in the first place.”

Host

Cara Anthony
Midwest correspondent, KFF Health News

@CaraRAnthony

Read Cara's stories

Cara is an Edward R. Murrow and National Association of Black Journalists award-winning reporter from East St. Louis, Illinois. Her work has appeared in The New York Times, Time magazine, NPR, and other outlets nationwide. Her reporting trip to the Missouri Bootheel in August 2020 launched the “Silence in Sikeston” project. She is a producer on the documentary and the podcast’s host.

In Conversation With …

Eddie R. Cole
Professor of education and history, UCLA

Keisha Bentley-Edwards
Associate professor of medicine, Division of General Internal Medicine at Duke University

Carol Anderson
Professor of African American studies, Emory University

click to open the transcript

Transcript: Racism Can Make You Sick

“Silence in Sikeston,” Episode 1: “Racism Can Make You Sick” Transcript 

Editor’s note: If you are able, we encourage you to listen to the audio of “Silence in Sikeston,” which includes emotion and emphasis not found in the transcript. This transcript, generated using transcription software, has been edited for style and clarity. Please use the transcript as a tool but check the corresponding audio before quoting the podcast. 

Cara Anthony: Sikeston sits in the Missouri Bootheel. That’s the lower corner of the state, with the Mississippi River on one side, Arkansas on the other. Lots of people say it’s where the South meets the Midwest. 

Picture cotton, soybeans, rice. It’s hot, green, and flat. If you’ve ever heard of Sikeston before, it’s probably because of this: 

Ryan Skinner: Hot rolls! 

Cara Anthony: Lambert’s Café. Home of the “Throwed Rolls.” 

Server: Yeah, they’ll say, uh, “Hot rolls!” And people will hold their hands up and they’ll toss it to you. 

Cara Anthony: The servers walk around with carts and throw these big dinner rolls at diners. 

Ryan Skinner: Oh, it’s fun. You get to nail people in the head and not get in trouble for it. 

Cara Anthony: There’s the rodeo. The cotton carnival. 

But I came to see Rhonda Council. 

Rhonda Council: My name is Rhonda Council. I was born and raised here in Sikeston. 

Cara Anthony: Rhonda is the town’s first Black city clerk. 

She became my guide. I met her when I came here to make a film about the little-known history of racial violence in Sikeston. 

I’m Cara Anthony. I’m a health reporter. I cover the ways racism — including violence — affects health. 

Rhonda grew up in the shadow of that violence — in a part of town where nearly everyone was Black. It’s called Sunset. 

Rhonda Council: Sunset was a happy place. I remember just being, as a kid, we could walk down to the store, we could just go get candy. 

Cara Anthony: There were churches and a school there. 

Rhonda Council: We knew everybody in the community. If we did something wrong, you can best believe your parents was going to find out about it before you got home. 

Cara Anthony: Back in the day, these were dirt roads. 

Cara Anthony: OK, so we’re getting ready to go on a tour of Sunset, which used to be known as the Sunset Addition, right? 

Rhonda Council: Mm-hmm, yes. Mm-hmm. 

Cara Anthony: We got into her car, along with Rhonda’s mother and her grandmother, Mable Cook. 

Rhonda Council: This street was known as The Bottom. Everything Black-owned. They had clubs, they had stores, they even had houses that people stayed in. I think it was shotgun houses back then? 

Mable Cook: Uh-huh. 

Cara Anthony: That’s Rhonda’s grandmother, Ms. Mable, right there. She was a teenager here in the 1940s. Her memory of the place seems to get stronger with each uh-huh and mm-hmm. 

Rhonda Council: And this was just the place where people went on the weekend to, you know, have a good time and party. … And this area was kind of known as “the corner” because they used to have a club here. And they would … they would gamble a lot down here. They would throw dice. Everything down here on the corner. 

Mable Cook: That’s right. Sure did. Mm-hmm. 

Rhonda Council: You remember this street, Grandma? 

Mable Cook: Yeah, I’m trying to see where the store used to be. 

Rhonda Council: OK. 

Mable Cook: I think it was close to Smith Chapel. 

Rhonda Council: OK. 

Cara Anthony: Rhonda’s grandmother, Ms. Mable, was 97 then. 

Rhonda Council: She is a petite lady, to me, thin-framed. I describe her eyes as like a grayish-color eyes. And I don’t know if it’s because of old age, but I think they’re so beautiful. And she just has a pretty smile, and she’s just a fantastic lady. 

Cara Anthony: Ms. Mable was born in Indianola, Mississippi. When she was 14, her father moved to Sikeston looking for work. 

Rhonda Council: And so she came up here to, um, to be with her father. But she said when she came to Sikeston, she said it was an unusual experience because they were not allowed to go to stores. They were not allowed to, basically, be with the white people. And that’s not what she knew down in Mississippi. And in her mind, she couldn’t understand why Missouri, why Sikeston was like that in treating Black people that way. 

And not too long after that, the lynching of Cleo Wright occurred. 

[BEAT]  

Cara Anthony: It was 1942. While the United States was at war marching to stop fascism, a white mob here went unchecked and lynched a man named Cleo Wright. 

The lynching of a Black man in America was not uncommon. And often barely documented. 

But in the case of Cleo Wright — perhaps because the death challenged what the nation said it was fighting for — the killing in this small town made national news. 

The case generated enough attention that the FBI conducted the first federal investigation into a lynching. That investigation ultimately amounted to nothing. 

Meanwhile — here in Sikeston — the response to the brutal death was mostly silence. 

Eight decades later, another Black man was killed in Sikeston. This time by police. 

Local media outlets, like KFVS, covered it as a crime story: 

KFVS report: The Missouri State Highway Patrol says troopers must piece together exactly what led to the shooting death of 22-year-old Denzel Marshall Taylor. 

Cara Anthony: I think the killings of Denzel Taylor and Cleo Wright are a public health story. 

Our film “Silence in Sikeston” is grounded in my reporting about Cleo and Denzel. Part of the record of the community’s trauma and silence is captured in the film. This podcast extends that conversation. 

We’re exploring what it means to live with that stress — of racism, of violence. And we’re going to talk about the toll that it takes on our health as Black Americans, especially as we try to stay safe. 

In each episode, we’ll hear a story from my reporting. Then, a guest and I will talk about it. 

The history … 

Carol Anderson: The power of lynching is to terrorize the Black community, and one of the ways the community deals with that terror is the silence of it. […] And when you don’t deal with the wound, it creates all kinds of damage. 

Cara Anthony: And health … 

Aiesha Lee: It’s almost like every time we’re silent, it’s like a little pinprick. […] And after so long, those little pinpricks turn up as heart disease, as cancer, as all these other ailments. 

Cara Anthony: I’m hoping this journalism, and these stories, will spark a conversation that you’ve been meaning to have. 

This is an invitation. 

From WORLD Channel and KFF Health News and distributed by PRX, this is “Silence in Sikeston,” the podcast.  

Episode 1: “Racism Can Make You Sick” 

[BEAT] 

Cara Anthony: Ms. Mable was a witness to the lynching of Cleo Wright. The 25-year-old was about to become a father. 

Rhonda’s uncle says Cleo was … 

Harry Howard: Young, handsome, an athlete, and very well known in the community. 

Cara Anthony: That’s Harry Howard. He didn’t know Cleo. Harry wasn’t even born yet. But his uncle knew Cleo. 

Harry Howard: They were friends. They would shoot pool together and were known to be at the little corner store, the Scott’s Grocery. 

Cara Anthony: Harry’s family passed down the story of what happened. 

Harry Howard: So everything I’m reporting is the way it was told by people I trust. 

Cara Anthony: Black families mostly talked about it in whispers. 

Eddie R. Cole: And that sounds like this is one of those situations where that community would rather just leave this alone and try to move on with the life that you do have instead of losing more life. 

Cara Anthony: That’s my friend Eddie Cole. He’s a professor of history and education at UCLA. 

We were in college together at Tennessee State and worked on the school newspaper.  

I called up Eddie because I wanted to get his take as a historian. What happens when we keep quiet about a story like Cleo’s? 

Eddie R. Cole: Yeah, I’m Eddie Cole. … So here we go. 

Cara Anthony: Thousands of Black people were lynched before Cleo Wright was. But this was the first time the feds said, “Hey, we should go to Sikeston and investigate lynching as a federal crime.” 

This story though, seriously, like it just disappeared off the face of the map. Like, it’s, it’s scary to me. So many of the witnesses that I interviewed, they’ve passed away, Eddie, since we started this journey. And it’s frightening to me to think that their stories … that these stories can literally just go away. 

[BEAT]  

Eddie R. Cole: Lynching stories disappear but don’t disappear, right? So, the people who committed the crime, they committed it and went on with their day, which is twisted within itself, even to think about that. 

But on the other side, when you think about Black Americans, there was no need to talk a lot about it, right? Because you talk too much about some things and that same sort of militia justice might come to your front door in the middle of the night, right? Stories like this are known but not recorded. 

Cara Anthony: The hush that surrounded Cleo’s story back then was for Black people’s safety. But I’m conflicted. Should Cleo’s story be off the table? Or … could we be missing an opportunity for healing? 

On the phone with Eddie, I could feel this anxiety building up in me. I was almost afraid to bring it up, even though it was the reason why I called. 

[BEAT]  

Cara Anthony: And I will be honest with you, I think of you the same way I think of my brother, my father, like, I’ve almost wanted to protect the Black men in my life from that story because I know how hard it is to hear. 

Cara Anthony: It was January 1942. Cleo was accused of assaulting a white woman. A police officer arrested him; there was a fight. Cleo was beaten and shot. Covered in blood, he was eventually taken to jail. White residents of Sikeston mobbed the jail to get to Cleo. 

Cara Anthony: I do want to play a clip for you, just so you can hear a little bit, if you are up for that, because it’s a lot. How are you feeling about that today? 

Eddie R. Cole: No, I want to hear. I mean, I gotta know more now. You just told me there’s a story that just disappeared, but now you’re bringing it back to life. So let’s play the clip. 

Cara Anthony: All right. Let’s do it. 

Harry Howard: They took him out of the jail and drug him from downtown on Center Street through the Black area of Sunset. 

Obviously, it was a big commotion, and they were saying, “What’s going on?” And the man driving the station wagon told them, “Get out of the street,” and, of course, used the N-word. “There’s a lynching coming.” 

Cara Anthony: Historian Carol Anderson is a professor of African American studies at Emory University. She takes it from there. 

Carol Anderson: They hook him to the bumper of the car and decide to make an example of him in the Black community. 

The mob douses his body with five gallons of gasoline and set it on fire. People are going, “Oh my God, they are burning a Black man. They are burning a Black man. They have lynched a Black man.” 

Cara Anthony: I always need to take a deep breath after hearing that story. So, I check in with Eddie. 

Cara Anthony: OK. How you doing? You OK? 

Eddie R. Cole: Yeah, yeah, um, that was tough. 

Cara Anthony: I’ve grappled a lot with the question of why, like, why now? Why this story? Am I crazy for doing this? 

Eddie R. Cole: Yeah, I mean, this story is really an entry point to talk about society at large. Imagine the people who like the world that we’re in. A world where Black people are oppressed. Right? And so not telling stories like what happens in Sikeston is an easier way to just keep the status quo. And what you’re doing is pushing back on it and saying, ah, we must remember, because the remnants of this period still shape this town today. 

[BEAT]  

Cara Anthony: On the tour of Sikeston with Rhonda, I see that. 

Rhonda Council: We’re going to go in front of the church where Cleo Wright was burned. 

When we get down here to the right, you’ll see Smith Chapel Church. And wasn’t it over here in this way where he got burnt, Grandma? 

Mable Cook: Uh-huh, yep. 

Rhonda Council: OK. From what I hear, it happened right along in this area right here. 

Cara Anthony: It’s a small brick church with a steeple on top. The road is paved now, not gravel as before. It all looks so … normal. 

You’d think that kind of violence, so much hate, would leave a mark on the Earth. But on the day we visited, there was nothing to see. Just the church and the road. 

Ms. Mable is quiet. I wonder what she’s thinking. 

Mable Cook: I just remember them dragging him. They drove him from, uh, the police station out to Sunset Addition. But they took him around all the streets so everybody could see. 

Cara Anthony: Back at Rhonda’s home, we talked more about what Ms. Mable remembered. 

Rhonda Council: Did that affect you in any way when you saw that happening? 

Mable Cook: Yeah, it hurt because I never had seen anything like that. Mm-hmm. And it kind of got me. I was just surprised or something. I don’t know. Mm-hmm. 

Cara Anthony: Remember Ms. Mable had been a child in Mississippi in the ’30s — and it wasn’t until she moved north to Sikeston that she came face to face with a lynching. 

Rhonda Council: Did it stick in your mind after that for a long time? 

Mable Cook: Yeah, it did. It did stick because I just wondered why they wanted to do that to him. You know, they could have just taken him and put him in jail or something and not do all that to him. 

I just never had seen anything like it. I had heard people talking about it, but I had never seen anything like that. 

Cara Anthony: When it happened, a lot of Black families in Sikeston scattered, fled town to places that felt safer. Mable’s family returned to Mississippi for a week. 

But when they got back, she says, Sikeston went on like nothing had ever happened.  

Here’s Rhonda with Ms. Mable again. 

Rhonda Council: After you all saw the lynching that happened, did you and your friends talk about that? 

Mable Cook: No, we didn’t have none … we didn’t talk about it. My daddy told us not to have nothing be said about it, uh-uh. 

Rhonda Council: Oh, because your dad said that. 

Mable Cook: That’s right. He told us not to worry about it, not talk about it. Uh-huh. And he said it’ll go away if you not talk about it, you know, uh-huh. 

Rhonda Council: So over the years, did you ever want to get it out? Did you ever want to talk about it? 

Mable Cook: Yeah, I did want to. Uh-huh. I wanted to. Uh-huh. 

Rhonda Council: But you just couldn’t do it. 

Mable Cook: No. No. Uh-uh. No, he didn’t want us talking about it. He told us to forget it. 

Cara Anthony: Forget it. Don’t talk about it. It’ll go away. 

And, in a way, it did. 

No one was charged. No one went to prison. Cleo’s name faded from the news. 

[BEAT]   

Cara Anthony: But decades later, Ms. Mable, the witness; Rhonda, her granddaughter; and me, the journalist, we talked about it a lot. 

We turned the story over and over, and as I listened to Ms. Mable, there was a distance between the almost matter-of-fact way she described the lynching and what I expected her feelings would be. 

I asked her if she was ever depressed … or if she had sleepless nights, anxiety. As a health reporter, I was on the lookout for symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder. 

But Ms. Mable said no. 

That surprised me. And Rhonda, too. 

Cara Anthony: If we were to roll back the clock, go in a time machine, it’s 1942. All of a sudden, you see Cleo Wright’s body on the back of a car. How do you, can you even imagine that? 

Rhonda Council: I could not imagine. And even when talking to her about it, and she had such a vivid memory of it. And you ask her, did it haunt her, and she said no, she, it didn’t bother her, but I know deep down inside it had to because there’s no way that you could see something like that — someone dragged through the streets, basically naked going over rocks and the body just being dragged. 

I, I don’t know how I could have handled it because that’s just very, you just can’t treat a human being like that. 

Cara Anthony: That’s what’s so hard about these stories. And the research shows that seeing that kind of brutal, racial violence has health effects. But how do we recognize them? And what happens if we don’t? 

Those are some of the questions I asked Keisha Bentley-Edwards. 

Keisha Bentley-Edwards: Oftentimes, people who experience racial trauma are forced to not acknowledge it as such, or they’re forced to question whether or not it happened in the first place. 

Cara Anthony: Keisha is an associate professor in medicine at Duke University. She studies structural racism and chronic health conditions and knows a lot about what happens after a lynching. 

Keisha Bentley-Edwards: It’s difficult to talk about racism. And part of it is that you’re talking about power, who has it, who doesn’t have it. 

It’s not fun to talk about constantly being in a state where someone else can control your life with little recourse. 

Cara Anthony: That’s even more complicated in a place like Sikeston. 

Keisha Bentley-Edwards: When you’re in a smaller city, there is no way to turn away from the people who were the perpetrators of a race-based crime. And that, in and of itself, is a trauma. To know that someone has victimized your family member and you still have to say hello, you still have to say, “Good morning, ma’am.” And you have to just swallow your trauma in order to make the person who committed that trauma comfortable so that you don’t put your own family members at risk. 

Cara Anthony: Keisha says part of the stress comes from being Black and always being aware — alert — that the everyday ways you move through the world can be perceived as a threat to other people. 

Keisha Bentley-Edwards: Your life as a Black person is precarious. And I think that is what’s so hard about lynchings and these types of racist incidents is that so much of it is about, “I turned left when I could have turned right.” 

You know, “If I had just turned right or if I had stayed at home for another 10 minutes, this wouldn’t have happened.” 

Cara Anthony: That’s as true today as it was when Cleo Wright was alive. 

Keisha Bentley-Edwards: So, you don’t have to know the history of lynching to be affected by it. And so if you want to dismantle the legacy of the histories, you actually have to know it. So that you can address it and actually have some type of reconciliation and to move forward. 

Cara Anthony: I don’t know how you move on from something like the lynching of Cleo Wright. But breaking the silence is a step. 

And at 97, Ms. Mable did just that. 

She spoke to me. She trusted me enough to talk about it. Afterward, she said she felt lighter. 

Mable Cook: That’s right. Mm-hmm. So, it makes me feel much better after getting it out. 

[BEAT]  

Cara Anthony: A couple of years after we took the tour of Sikeston together, Ms. Mable died. 

When they lowered her casket into the ground, Ms. Mable’s family played a hymn she loved. 

It was a song she had sung for me … the day she invited me to visit her church. We sat in the pews. It was the middle of the week, but she was in her Sunday best. 

As we talked about Cleo Wright and Ms. Mable’s life in Sikeston, she told me she came back to that hymn over and over. 

Mable Cook: “Glory, Glory.” That’s what it was. [SINGING] Glory, glory, hallelujah. Since I laid my burden down. Glory, glory, hallelujah. Since I laid my burdens down […] 

Cara Anthony: I grew up singing that song. But before that moment, it was just another hymn in church. When Ms. Mable sang, it became something else. It sounded more like … an anthem. A call to acknowledge what we’ve been carrying with us in our bodies and minds. And to know it’s possible to talk about it … and maybe feel lighter. 

Mable Cook: [SINGING] … Every route go high and higher since I laid my burden down. Every route go high and higher since I laid my burden down […] 

Cara Anthony: Racism is heavy and it’s making Black people sick. Hives, high blood pressure, heart disease, inflammation, and struggles with mental health. 

To lay those burdens down, we have to name them first. 

That’s what I want this series to be: a podcast about finding the words to say the things that go unsaid. 

Across four episodes, we’re exploring the silence around violence and racism. And, maybe, we’ll get some redemption, too. 

I’m glad you’re here. There’s a lot more to talk about. 

Next time on “Silence in Sikeston,” the podcast … 

Meet my Aunt B and hear about our family’s hidden history. 

Cara Anthony: I told you what the three R’s of history are, right? 

Aunt B: No, tell me. 

Cara Anthony: So the three R’s of history are, you have to recognize something in order to repair it, in order to have days of redemption. So, Recognize, Repair, Redeem. And that’s what we’re doing. 

Aunt B: Man, how deep is that? 

Cara Anthony: That’s what we’re doing. 

Aunt B: Wow. 

CREDITS 

Cara Anthony: Thanks for listening to “Silence in Sikeston.” 

Next, go watch the documentary — it’s a joint production from Retro Report and KFF Health News, presented in partnership with WORLD. 

Subscribe to WORLD Channel on YouTube. That’s where you can find the film “Silence in Sikeston,” a Local, USA special. 

This podcast is a co-production of WORLD Channel and KFF Health News and distributed by PRX. 

It was produced with support from PRX and made possible in part by a grant from the John S. and James L. Knight Foundation. 

The audio series was reported and hosted by me, Cara Anthony. 

Zach Dyer and Taylor Cook are the producers. 

Editing by Simone Popperl. 

Taunya English is managing editor of the podcast. 

Sound design, mixing, and original music by Lonnie Ro. 

Podcast art design by Colin Mahoney and Tania Castro-Daunais. 

Oona Zenda was the lead on the landing page design. 

Julio Ricardo Varela consulted on the script. 

Sending a shoutout to my vocal coach, Viki Merrick, for helping me tap into my voice. 

Music in this episode is from BlueDot Sessions and Epidemic Sound. 

Additional audio from KFVS News in Sikeston, Missouri. 

Some of the audio you’ll hear across the podcast is also in the film. 

For that, special thanks to Adam Zletz, Matt Gettemeier, Roger Herr, and Philip Geyelin, who worked with us and colleagues from Retro Report. 

Kyra Darnton is executive producer at Retro Report. 

I was a producer on the film. 

Jill Rosenbaum directed the documentary. 

Kytja Weir is national editor at KFF Health News. 

WORLD Channel’s editor-in-chief and executive producer is Chris Hastings. 

If “Silence in Sikeston” has been meaningful to you, help us get the word out! 

Write a review or give us a quick rating on Apple, Spotify, Amazon Music, iHeart, or wherever you listen to this podcast. It shows the powers that be that this is the kind of journalism you want. 

Thank you. It makes a difference. 

Oh yeah … and tell your friends in real life, too! 

Credits

Taunya English
Managing editor

@TaunyaEnglish

Taunya is deputy managing editor for broadcast at KFF Health News, where she leads enterprise audio projects.

Simone Popperl
Line editor

@simoneppprl

Simone is broadcast editor at KFF Health News, where she shapes and edits stories that air on Marketplace and NPR, manages a reporting collaborative with local NPR member stations across the country, and edits the KFF Health News Minute.

Zach Dyer
Senior producer

@zkdyer

Zach is senior producer for audio with KFF Health News, where he supervises all levels of podcast production.

Taylor Cook
Associate producer

@taylormcook7

Taylor is an independent producer who does research, books guests, contributes writing, and fact-checks episodes for several KFF Health News podcasts.

Additional Newsroom Support

Lynne Shallcross, photo editorOona Zenda, illustrator and web producerLydia Zuraw, web producerTarena Lofton, audience engagement producer Hannah Norman, visual producer and visual reporter Chaseedaw Giles, audience engagement editor and digital strategistKytja Weir, national editor Mary Agnes Carey, managing editor Alex Wayne, executive editorDavid Rousseau, publisher Terry Byrne, copy chief Gabe Brison-Trezise, deputy copy chief Tammie Smith, communications officer 

The “Silence in Sikeston” podcast is a production of KFF Health News and WORLD. Distributed by PRX. Subscribe and listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, iHeart, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Watch the accompanying documentary from WORLD, Retro Report, and KFF starting Sept. 16, here.

To hear other KFF Health News podcasts, click here.

KFF Health News is a national newsroom that produces in-depth journalism about health issues and is one of the core operating programs at KFF—an independent source of health policy research, polling, and journalism. Learn more about KFF.

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The Host

Julie Rovner
KFF Health News

@jrovner

Read Julie's stories.

Julie Rovner is chief Washington correspondent and host of KFF Health News’ weekly health policy news podcast, “What the Health?” A noted expert on health policy issues, Julie is the author of the critically praised reference book “Health Care Politics and Policy A to Z,” now in its third edition.

The term “health equity” means different things to different people. It’s about access to medical care — but not only access to medical care. It’s about race, ethnicity, and gender; income, wealth, and class; and even geography — but not only those things. And it’s about how historical and institutional racism, manifested in things like over-policing and contaminated drinking water, can inflict health problems years and even generations later.

In a live taping on Sept. 6 at the Texas Tribune Festival, special guests Carol Alvarado, the Texas state Senate’s Democratic leader, and Ann Barnes, president and CEO of the Episcopal Health Foundation, along with KFF Health News’ Southern bureau chief Sabriya Rice and Midwest correspondent Cara Anthony, joined KFF Health News’ chief Washington correspondent, Julie Rovner, to discuss all that health equity encompasses and how current inequities can most effectively be addressed.

Anthony also previewed “Silence in Sikeston,” a four-part podcast and documentary debuting this month exploring how a history of lynching and racism continues to negatively affect the health of one rural community in Missouri.

Panelists

Carol Alvarado
Texas state senator (D-Houston)

Cara Anthony
Midwest correspondent, KFF Health News

Ann Barnes
President and CEO, Episcopal Health Foundation

Sabriya Rice
Southern bureau chief, KFF Health News

Also mentioned on this week’s podcast, from KFF Health News’ “Systemic Sickness” project:

• “A Teen’s Murder, Mold in the Walls: Unfulfilled Promises Haunt Public Housing,” by Fred Clasen-Kelly and Renuka Rayasam.
• “Med Schools Face a New Obstacle in the Push To Train More Black Doctors,” by Lauren Sausser.
• “‘I Feel Dismissed’: People Experiencing Colorism Say Health System Fails Them,” by Chaseedaw Giles.
• “As Record Heat Sweeps the US, Some People Must Choose Between Food and Energy Bills,” by Melba Newsome.
• “Black Hospitals Vanished in the U.S. Decades Ago. Some Communities Have Paid a Price,” by Lauren Sausser.

click to open the transcript

Transcript: Live from Austin, Examining Health Equity

[Editor’s note: This transcript was generated using both transcription software and a human’s light touch. It has been edited for style and clarity.] 

Julie Rovner: Hello, and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Julie Rovner, chief Washington correspondent for KFF Health News, and usually I’m joined by some of the best and smartest health reporters in Washington. But today we have a special episode for you all about health equity taped before a live audience at the Texas Tribune Festival on Sept. 6, 2024. I hope you enjoy it. We’ll be back with our regular panel and all the news on Sept. 12. So here we go.

I am pleased to be joined on this panel by two of my KFF Health News colleagues, Southern bureau chief Sabriya Rice, who’s right here next to me, and Midwest correspondent Cara Anthony, down at the end. We are also honored to be joined by two guests with a lot of combined expertise on this issue, [Texas] Senate Democratic leader Carol Alvarado, who represents the 6th District of Texas, which includes parts of Houston, and Dr. Ann Barnes, president and CEO of the Episcopal Health Foundation, also based in Houston.

We’re going to talk amongst ourselves for the next, I don’t know, 40 minutes or so. Then we will go to you in the audience for your questions. So go ahead and be thinking. I have to say I am personally really excited about this episode because health equity is something I think about a lot, but I’ve never been able to accurately define, even for myself. I know it’s about race and ethnicity and gender, but it’s not just about race and ethnicity and gender. It’s about income and wealth and class, but it’s not just about income and wealth and class. It’s about geography, but not just about geography. And it’s about medical care, but not just about medical care. So I want to kick off this discussion by asking each of you how you define health equity. And why don’t we just sort of go down the row? So we’ll start with you, Sabriya.

Sabriya Rice: Really great question and it gave me a lot of things to think about. And I want to start with a little anecdote from something that happened yesterday evening. I was having a conversation with a group of visitors from South Africa who work for an investigative news site there called The Daily Maverick, and my colleague, Aneri Pattani, who’s also a KFF Health News reporter. We were explaining some of the things about the U.S. health care system and just some basic stuff like how a lot of people can’t afford to just go for preventive care, how you may or may not have access to care in your neighborhood, and what that means in terms of your health outcomes.

And in the middle, they paused us and were like, “Wait a minute, wait a minute. This doesn’t make any sense. We have these things in South Africa.” It’s something you hear regularly from other people who are visiting here and they’re like, “But you’re like the wealthiest country in the world. How do you not have these things?” And I was thinking about that and thinking of, in terms of your question. So, for me, I think of health equity as just creating the opportunity for everyone to be able to achieve their optimal health no matter their background. And I think that’s something we could really work on in the U.S.

Ann Barnes: Great.When I think about health equity, I share a similar definition where folks have a just and fair opportunity to live their healthiest lives. And this is largely from the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation’s definition of health equity. But coupled with that is the requirement to dismantle barriers to health. And so we have to remember that that is part of the equation, not just dreaming that we all have optimal health, but thinking about how we’re going to eliminate the barriers, especially for populations that are most vulnerable.

Carol Alvarado: I think about accessibility and affordability. And if you don’t have those two things in health care, then you create this environment of the haves and the have-nots, those who can afford to have health insurance and those who can’t. Maybe it’s because of their job, their social economic status. And I also think that we have to take partisanship and politics out of health care. I mean, when did that become such a divisive issue that really reached the height during the Obamacare debate and the many, many times to repeal it? And I know we’re going to dive into this a little bit more, but health care and access should never be political.

Cara Anthony: When I think about health equity, I agree with all of the panelists here today, but I’m also thinking about the future and the next generation. I’m a single mom. I have a 7-year-old daughter, and I think about how is she going to be able to live a longer and healthier life than previous generations. I’m going back home tomorrow and one of the first things that I’m going to do is sign my daughter up for a swim lesson, right? That’s health equity because I’m also signing up for a lesson as well. Why? Because I never learned to swim. It’s about each generation doing better. And why didn’t I learn to swim? Because my parents were born in 1948 in the South and did not have access to swimming pools. So it’s those daily practical applications that I think about when I think about health equity. So yeah.

Rovner: Sen. Alvarado and Dr. Barnes, I want to talk about Texas a little bit since, obviously, we’re sitting here. Texas is, we try not to think about just insurance when we talk about health equity, although it’s a big deal, and in Texas it’s still a big deal as opposed to a lot of other states. What impact does Texas’ failure to, so far at least, expand Medicaid have on health equity in this state?

Barnes: Well, we know that health care and access to health care is critically important to health. It accounts for 20% of a person’s health, and nonmedical drivers account for the other 80%. But 20% is important. We still have the highest rate of uninsured. So that means that there are parts of our community that can’t get the preventive care that they need, that can’t talk to people who might connect them to social services to support their nonmedical needs. And so the larger conversation is about increasing health coverage overall in Texas. And certainly expansion of Medicaid is one piece of that. About 5 million people are uninsured right now in our state, and so we’ve got a lot of ground to cover. Affordable Care Act is one way, Medicaid expansion is another. And so a lot of work to do, for sure.

Alvarado: And I’ll pick up where you left off. Medicaid expansion has been, believe it or not, a hot political hot potato here in Texas. I’ve been filing, along with many of my colleagues, bills every session since 2009, maybe. We can’t get hearings. And no one really gives you a good explanation why. They’ll have things that really don’t make a lot of sense that there are too many strings attached. Well, somehow 40 other states don’t have that problem.

And we’ve seen that the cost that we’re leaving on the table, millions of dollars. I think the last number I saw was 2023, maybe $11 billion just there on the table; other states are utilizing it. And then here in Texas, it’s kind of complicated. I’ll just give you the elevator speech on that. But they kept the Medicaid enrollment going during the pandemic, and then afterwards they did this winding, what they called winding down, and almost 2 million people were left without Medicaid. And a good portion of that are children, and a good portion of those children are Black and brown kids who are already living in environments where they don’t have access to green space or grocery stores, fresh fruits and vegetables. So you pile all of that together and that’s why we are in this place of many uninsured, almost twice the number of the national rate, which is at 8[%]. We’re at 17[%]. Yeah, everything’s bigger in Texas especially the number of uninsured.

Rovner: So, Dr. Barnes, I want you to talk about what it is that your foundation does. I find it fascinating that even though you would think that you’re all about medical care, you’re really not all about medical care, right?

Barnes: No, that’s right. So we are committed to promoting equity by addressing health and not just health care. And so we use our resources in partnership with community members and organizations and change-makers to address factors that occur outside of the clinical setting and the doctor’s office. And representative [Sen.] Alvarado listed so many of them: housing, food security, employment, education. All of these are critically important to health. And so we use our resources to help address those needs because we know that that will set people up for a healthy life and not just a sick life that ends them up in clinical care at the very tail end of their illness. One of the things I wanted to share, I’m a physician by training, in internal medicine and primary care, and my patients taught me so much when I saw them and I prescribed medicines for diabetes or high blood pressure. It was the stories about their lives outside of the clinic that really helped me understand what was impacting their health, which is why I got into this space of health and not just the clinical side.

Rovner: Cara, you’re about to debut a project that you’ve been working on for four years that has to do with exactly this, with sort of the nonmedical implications of other things and the lack of health equity. So why don’t you tell us a little bit about it?

Anthony: Yeah, so coming up next week, we’re going to premiere a new podcast, and also it’s a documentary film, called “Silence in Sikeston.” It focuses on police violence and police killings, but looking at them not as crime stories, but more as a public health threat. Also looking at the lynchings of yesterday as a public health threat. Maybe people didn’t use those terms back then, but certainly we recognize them as such now.

And so I hope everyone checks this out because it really talks about how racism and chronic stress are linked. And so oftentimes it can weigh not only on your mental health — anxiety, depression, you can become suicidal because of these things — but also you can have physical health effects as well, higher rates of high blood pressure, cancer, et cetera. And so I’ve been traveling for the last four years to Sikeston, Missouri. It’s a small community in rural Missouri where there was a man who was lynched there in 1942. His name was Cleo Wright. This is America’s first federally investigated lynching, the first time the FBI decided to look at lynching as a federal crime. They came to Sikeston, Missouri. But the story has never really been told and not in this way, not looking at it as a public health story, because as public health reporters we’re tasked with looking at what makes a community sick, what’s harming a community, and sometimes that can be something like lynching, something like police killings. And so we’re looking at that head-on and talking about the health impacts there.

Rovner: And Sabriya, obviously this is a big project that we’ve been working on, but we’ve been working on a lot of other health equity stories that you’re sort of in charge of. So why don’t you tell us about some of those?

Rice: Yeah, certainly. And it’s a great parallel to the work that Cara’s been doing. I came to KFF in 2022, and my charge was to start up a Southern bureau and look at the health equity disparities that happen across the South. So my team ranges from Texas to Florida up until North Carolina, and we meet weekly and have conversations. And one thing I was constantly hearing from the reporters — I’m not a policy expert and I’m not a statistician, but I’m a people person and I listen to people — and my reporters were saying over and over again, “Yeah, we spoke to this expert about Medicaid expansion, but they were like, ‘Yeah, we could do that, but it’s not going to stop the root of the problem, which is racism.’”

“Yeah, we wrote about maternal mortality or infant mortality, but still at the root of this is racism.” So that term kept coming up. And so we decided this year to take a look at systemic racism in the health care system, and our series is called “Systemic Sickness,” and it looks at some of the things that Cara talked about, including policing, but we also look at redlining or the history of redlining, of public housing challenges. We’re looking modern-day, like attacks on diversity, equity, and inclusion programs in education, specifically the field of medicine. So that’s the nature of our project that we have for this year. And it’s been just a real fascinating experience.

Rovner: I think I’ve heard this come up a couple of times in the panels we’ve had this morning about some of the other issues that really impact this in a bigger way than many people think. And I think housing is definitely one of those. You talked about redlining. A lot of this is historic racism and literal redlining: “You cannot live here. If you live here, you cannot get a mortgage.” There’s been a lot of that. How significant, I assume, the problem is here in Texas?

Barnes: Yeah, it is significant in a lot of those racist structures. We continue to experience the aftereffects of those. Even today, those neighborhoods are still under-resourced, and that includes, like you mentioned, grocery stores, safe spaces to play, green spaces, good transportation options. And so those old and, I suppose, acceptable forms of structural racism that were enacted are still playing out today in the health of people.

Alvarado: It’s very important. And housing doesn’t get a lot of attention. It’s not a very glamorous or sexy issue, but I’m glad to hear presidential candidate Kamala Harris, she talked about housing and what she would like to see to build more affordable housing, or I guess we’re calling it “workforce housing” now. And then our state comptroller, Glenn Hegar, recognizing how many people we have moving to Texas all the time. And to accommodate that, we’d need about 300,000 new units or housing. So people don’t have a place to lie their head that’s comfortable and a place to cook meals. And then if they don’t have those safety nets, then their last concern is probably, “Oh, am I getting my workout in today?” Or “Am I eating enough fruits and vegetables?” when they’re in survival mode.

Rice: And I’ll piggyback on what representative [Sen.] Alvarado said. It’s hard for people to see how this kind of plays out in real time. And two of our reporters on the Southern team just recently looked at a community in Savannah, Georgia, called Yamacraw Village. It’s a public housing community that started around World War II. And historically, at that time, the residents were white. Disinvestment happened within this community over the years and the population of the community changed.

So now it’s a predominantly Black and Latino community, but what you see is a large amount of disinvestment. People can’t get things fixed, so you’re living in very unhealthy housing, when you do have housing. There’s no playgrounds, there’s no green space, there’s an extreme amount of violence. But one man told our reporters, “The walls sweat like working men.” This person moved into this community and got vouchers to be able to live there and immediately developed asthma and has been taking medication even years after he left the community. So when you think about how the system is harming people, these communities are there and they’re not being invested in. Instead, people are given things like Section 8, if they can get the vouchers, and then if you can find affordable living that will take your Section 8 voucher. So it’s a really big problem. And housing is often not talked about as a public health crisis.

Barnes: Absolutely. And not just the place that you lay your head, but high-quality housing, not substandard that actually can impact your health.

Rovner: One of the things we’ve seen, I guess in the last couple of years, are these extraordinarily hot summers. And I know the government has always helped underwrite heating assistance in the winter, but apparently air-conditioning assistance is not considered of the same importance. I just read Phoenix has been 100 degrees every day for the last hundred days. I know that here in Texas you’ve had some pretty extended heat waves. I mean, how big an issue is heat as a public health and equity issue?

Alvarado: It’s a big problem, and especially when we’ve had things like power outages, storms that we had very close to one another. We had the derecho in May and then we had followed by the Hurricane Beryl, and that was tough. I mean, people were out of power anywhere from a couple of days to 10 days, and for some, it’s life or death, especially if they have medical equipment that they have to be hooked up to. We’re going to be tackling some of those issues in this session, but our city does a good job in our county of opening cooling centers so that people have a place to go and retreat and charge their devices. But the weather is getting much more turbulent. The summers are getting hotter, the hurricane season is more active. And until people realize that there’s a reason all this is happening and people don’t want to talk about it or put policy forth that addresses what’s taking place in our environment. So they go hand in hand.

Barnes: One of the other things, as we talk about communities where there isn’t investment, is that there are these heat islands, and typically they are where people are low-income communities of color where simple things like trees being planted that could cool the temperature in the area, these neighborhoods don’t have those amenities. So there are efforts in Texas and in Houston to try to green up some of those communities, but it requires investment and attention and acknowledging that we have these disparities across the community.

Rovner: Yeah, there was a study, I think it was in Baltimore a couple of years ago, where the temperature differential was like 15 degrees. I mean, it would be 85 in the suburbs and it would be 100 in some of these sort of concrete jungles downtown where the buildings hold onto the heat. And, of course, those are places where people live and often can’t afford their utilities, and obviously their utility bills would be higher because it’s going to cost more to cool those places.

Barnes: And as representative [Sen.] Alvarado mentioned, heat, when you have chronic conditions, so the elderly in particular, these are the communities that have the greatest burden of those conditions. And so it’s particularly alarming. That need is there and we really have to pay attention to it.

Rice: One of the things we just looked at in a story was this idea of energy poverty. And one interesting factoid that I learned from that that I was unaware of myself is the idea that many of our federal policies tend to focus on cold weather and that this idea, in federal and state, so for example in North Carolina where the story was centered, there are requirements that apartments and other kind of housing that they mandate that you have heat in the winter. It’s not the same for AC in the summer, and that’s probably something that should be looked at.

Rovner: I want to talk about women. When we talk about health equity differences between men and women, where one of the first places we saw before the Affordable Care Act, insurers were allowed to charge women more simply because they were women and they lived longer and had more health expenses associated with being pregnant and having children. That was eliminated. But, obviously, there are still a lot of inequities between men and women and it’s there. I know that they’re exacerbated by race, but it’s not purely race. I mean, how big an issue is this still? Obviously, reproductive health in general, abortion in specific, is the central health issue in this year’s campaigns. So where does it fall in the pantheon of health equity?

Alvarado: I think if we had more women elected to office, definitely in Texas and in statewide positions, that things like Medicaid would pass, expansion of Medicaid. And it does matter who is at the table, who is making the decisions. And this happened just on one side of the aisle, but just 12-month postpartum for women, so that they can take advantage of Medicaid, and it finally got done. But that’s the only piece that we’ve been able to do. And they were two women, Democrat and Republican, Toni Rose and Sen. Huffman, who led that effort. And I just know if we had more women in the right places, that issues like health care wouldn’t be so partisan and divisive.

Barnes: Yeah, I was going to say the same thing. We finally got 12 months of coverage postpartum, and it’s really unfortunate that we have to piecemeal the care that women need. I think about the fact that we expect good pregnancy outcomes when someone hasn’t had care until they’re pregnant, and up until recently, only eight weeks after they were pregnant. And so yeah, there are a lot of disparities, and for many women being pregnant is their ticket to Medicaid. And so it just perpetuates this fragmented continuum of health, and women are falling out of it regularly.

Alvarado: And especially with women of color, 64% of Latinas and 62% of African American women will at some point be on Medicaid.

Anthony: I just want to chime in here too. You talk about reproductive rights. I considered, Julie, writing a personal essay about, at the time I was 35, I went on … I’m only 37 now, but as a Black woman in the U.S., going on birth control for the first time in my life. Now, I mentioned I’m a single mom, so that wasn’t always my story, but I think we’re in an era of progress and education that is still really, really important. So I just wanted to share that.

Rovner: So I want to talk a little bit about the actual inequities within medical care. One thing, Stat News has a wonderful story that’s part of a series they’re starting this week on algorithms that are embedded into care — when doctors make a diagnosis and then the algorithm comes up and shows all the things you should consider in deciding what kind of treatment. And a lot of these now have: Is the patient Black? And some of them, I think, were originally, I assume most of them, were originally born out of some sort of thought that there’s a differential in risk depending on skin color, but obviously a lot of them … have been completely overturned by science and yet they’re still there. What impact does embedded racism in medicine, in general, have on health equity?

Barnes: Yeah, specific to that, in particular, what it resulted in is individuals who had evidence of risk, because they were Black there was a higher threshold that had to be crossed before they got additional testing or additional treatment, which means that there are populations of people who didn’t get timely care because of those embedded algorithms. One of the other things, there’s not an overriding body — I guess CMS could be that overriding body — but right now no one is standing up saying, “Absolutely you cannot use race-based algorithms.” And so it’s really up to individual health systems. States could implement penalties if you use them, but right now it’s up to an individual institution, and it takes a lot to undo an algorithm and change an electronic medical record. But we are at the threshold, I think, of that beginning to happen.

Anthony: And it’s such a common issue. I spent the last few years looking particularly at kidney disease testing, and if you put a Black person’s kidney on a table and you put a white person’s kidney on the table, you would not be able to tell the difference. People really need to understand that race and biology are not the same, but for years, I mean decades, people have mixed this up and it has delayed care from people who are not getting the treatment that they need.

We wrote a story a couple of years ago about a Black man who needed a kidney, a white woman read the story and decided to donate a kidney to him, but that’s not everybody’s case. I can only write about so many patients that are in that same scenario. And so there’s still a lot of work that needs to be done, but progress is being made. The hospital in particular that we were looking at in St. Louis, they’ve made some policy changes since we published that particular article, but we still have a long way to go. I can’t say that enough. Race and biology are not the same.

Rovner: I mentioned at the top geography, and we talk about people who are grouped together because they have to be, but it’s also about where people decide to live, in rural versus urban. I mean, how can we look population-wide and try to even out, I mean, we talk constantly about the closures of rural hospitals and the difficulty of getting care in far-flung areas, and obviously Texas has a lot of far-flung areas, I know. That is another issue that sort of plays into this whole thing, right?

Alvarado: Oh, absolutely. And one of the arguments, again, this all keeps going back to Medicaid expansion, but you’re talking to my colleagues on the other side of the aisle, I said, your districts, some of your rural districts are suffering the most. Hospitals have shut down. They have to drive to the next big city. It might be Houston or Dallas or San Antonio, but it has, I think, disproportionately hurt rural areas. And until folks want to own that, embrace that, and try to fix it, we’re going to continue to be in this place and probably the gap will widen even more.

Rice: And I’d say we saw this kind of play out in Georgia this week. I live in Atlanta, and there was the unfortunate school shooting incident that happened there. And the community that that school is in had no hospital in that area. So the closest place would’ve been 40 miles away in either direction to Athens, Georgia, which is about 40 miles from the Barrow County and then Atlanta. So even in an incident like that, just coordinating to get people treatment in a major incident is just another example of why we need to do something, right? It’s not just Black communities or Hispanic communities. I think it’s all of us and any given moment may need access to care. And if you think about it, in light of that, 40 miles is no easy feat on Atlanta highways in rush-hour traffic or even being airlifted, it’s still a distance and you have a small window of time to save a life.

Barnes: And there’s been specific conversations in Texas about access to maternal health care in rural communities. And so again, the distance that someone would have to drive is hard for many of us to imagine, especially in a time of crisis.

Rovner: One of the other continuing issues when we talk about health equity is the desire of people to be treated by people who look like them or people who have similar backgrounds to them. That’s obviously been an issue for years that the medical community has been trying to deal with. I want to ask specifically what impact the Supreme Court’s decision banning affirmative action is going to have on the future of the medical workforce and the few strides that have been made to get more people of color, not just into medical school, but into practice.

Rice: I’d say that was pretty immediate, and especially in some of our Southern states, given the history. But I think there were immediate bans on DEI programs or dismantling of those at schools across the South. I can think of Alabama, Mississippi, Texas, even Georgia introduced a bill. It didn’t pass, but I think we saw that happen pretty immediately. And the doctors that at least reporters on my team have spoken to have said, even in their programs, they can’t even say, “We’re trying to increase the number of Black doctors or Hispanic doctors or Native American doctors.” You can’t target those groups to come to special programs, to have access to visitations to schools or that sort of thing. You can’t even say it. So they’re having to kind of circumvent how they reach people to increase the low numbers of doctors of these ethnic groups.

Alvarado: I think we’ve only begun to see the consequences that have taken place because of that. When you mentioned the medical center, we have people that come from all over the world and having physicians that they can relate to or just speaking the language, 48% of people from Houston speak other languages other than English at home. So Houston is known for being very international, very diverse, and it’s only going to continue to grow. So having the language barrier also contributes to many other issues regarding your health. But having that comfort with someone that understands your background, may understand your challenges, that’s important. And I don’t think that the people who were coming up with DEI legislation here in Texas and, those things don’t cross their mind because they’re shortsighted. They’re trying to check a box or get that “A-plus” on their whatever scorecard by whatever group in their party.

Rovner: But people think, well, a doctor is a doctor is a doctor. Why does it matter if that doctor, if you’re able to relate to that doctor, how important is it really to have a medical community that looks like the community it’s serving?

Barnes: Yeah, I would say it’s a huge trust issue. I remember having patients in my practice, African American patients, and there was a wonderful trust that we had with one another. And then I would refer them to a specialist who didn’t look like them, and they would ask me questions, “Do you really think they’re going to do the procedure that they said?” And I was just thinking, “Oh my gosh, I am taking for granted that someone would trust me.” And when we think about how we make recommendations to patients, if the trust isn’t there, why would they listen to what you had to say? And then that will, of course, put you at a disadvantage from a health perspective. And in terms of eliminating affirmative action, I don’t know the medical school data, but a lot of higher education institutions are already reporting lower numbers in their incoming classes. And that certainly is going to be the same in medical schools, nursing schools, PA schools.

Rovner: I did have in my notes that medical schools are freaked out by this.

Anthony: And it’s really …

Barnes: Absolutely.

Anthony: And what you’re talking about, and I’ve written a lot about this topic, and just to name it, we’re talking about “culturally competent care,” and culturally competent care is really, really hard to find because the numbers are low, because there has been a shift. But I think the conversation is also shifting towards culturally humble care or cultural humility in health care. So even if I can’t find a doctor who looks like me, I need someone who’s culturally humble to say, “You know what? I don’t understand everything that you’re going through as a Black woman raising a child in America, but I can admit that, I can say that out loud, and I can maybe direct you towards someone who can be more helpful. Or maybe we could just have a really candid conversation about that.” And so I just want to give people the terminology that I think could be useful if you want to learn more.

Rice: We also just did a story looking at colorism in the U.S. and the impact that that has on people. Interviewed a woman, for example, who had been bleaching her skin for all of these years, had these side effects from that, but clinicians weren’t catching it. They didn’t know to look for specific things. So there were mental health challenges there because of feeling unhappy being in her own body, but there were also manifestations on her physical health because the chemicals that she was introducing were causing harm. So I think that kind of cultural competence, someone that looked like her and could relate to her background might be like, “Wait a minute, is this what’s happening here?” And that’s what happened in the case of that particular patient.

Rovner: So at our session this morning on why does care cost so much? My colleague Noam Levey talked about something he calls a culture of greed in health care, it does seem as if every aspect of the system is or has been monetized. I mean, it really is all about the money. How does that impact health equity? I mean, you could think that if the incentives were in the right place, it might be able to help.

Alvarado: And it drives up the cost of insurance too. I mean, if you’ve ever had a loved one in the hospital, they don’t want you to bring your medications from home. So you have to take what they have there. And it is the same thing, but it’s very expensive. You can buy a bottle of Advil for 5, 6 bucks; each pill is about that much, and then it drives up cost of insurance, and it has an economic impact that trickles down to the consumer.

Barnes: And then it becomes a barrier. So if you are paying out-of-pocket and things are incredibly expensive and you also have to buy food and pay your rent, you may forgo or delay care, which again is going to leave you in a worse situation from a health standpoint and just perpetuate the disparities.

Rovner: Now we have managed-care companies who serve not just most of the Medicare population, but most of the Medicaid population, who get paid for presumably the incentive there was, you’re going to take care of these people and we’re going to pay you, and the more people you can find to take care of, the more we’re going to pay you. And in theory, they have adequate networks where people can actually find care, which is not always the case with Medicaid. It’s hard to find providers who will take Medicaid. I’ve started seeing ads for managed-care companies for people who are eligible for both Medicare and Medicaid, the “dual eligibles.” They don’t call them that, but it’s like, “Wow, I’m looking at TV ads for dual eligibles.” Somebody must be making some amount of money off of these people. Is anything good coming from it?

Alvarado: I mean, the pharmaceutical companies are raking it in pretty good. And in some countries you can’t even have direct promotion for pharmaceuticals from the pharmaceutical company to the consumer.

Rovner: Most other countries.

Alvarado: Yeah, except I mean every commercial. I mean, you pick your drug, what is it, Skyrizi or Cialis, whatever. I mean, it’s out there.

Rovner: Yes, we all know the names of the drugs now.

Alvarado: Something for everybody.

Rovner: I’m going turn it over to questions in a minute, but before I do, I don’t want this to be a complete downer. So I would like each of you to talk about something that you’ve seen in the last year or two that’s made you optimistic about being able to at least address the issue of health equity.

Rice: I mean, the fact that we’re having these conversations more, I think, is something that brings optimism, for me. I don’t remember my family having these conversations as a kid. It was just like, “Well, this is just the way it is. Or “This is how the system is.” And I think it’s positive that we’re having conversations not just about how the system is currently, but about changing it, as Cara mentioned, for the next generation.

Barnes: As a philanthropy, I can talk about some specific investments that we’ve made that have allowed community health workers to work with women throughout their pregnancy period. And so in a small way, for those women, we have increased the opportunity for them to have a healthy outcome. But we’ve also done some policy work. We were part of a large coalition of folks pushing for 12 months of Medicaid coverage postpartum. And those system-level changes affect millions of Texans. And so again, we felt that was really an important way to change the health equity equation.

Alvarado: And thank you for your work on that. Many of us on my side of the aisle have been filing those bills to get it extended to 12 months. But again, everything goes back to politics. They weren’t going to let somebody in the minority party carry it. And at that point, you don’t care who gets the credit, just get it done. Or as we say in Texas, “Git-er-done” and take care of folks. But another thing that we’ve been talking about on our side of the aisle was the tampon tax, the pink tax, and wow, all of a sudden my colleagues on the other side thought, “Oh, that’s a good idea.” And so anyway, we didn’t get to carry it. They passed it, OK, it’s done. So we’ve got to play this game, dance this dance here, and we’ll do it. The most important thing is to make things accessible and affordable to people.

And one of the other things too, we didn’t get to talk about this much, but when you talk about the environment and health impacts, my district has so many concrete batch plants. And so we are seeing more people become aware of particulate matter and the negative impact that these facilities have. And they’re almost all, I’d say 99% all, located in African American and Latino neighborhoods. And Harris County has the largest number of concrete batch plants in any other county in Texas. And a third of those concrete batch plants are walking distance to schools and to day cares. We have more work to do in this area, but at least now the public is holding people accountable and we’re putting more pressure on the agencies that regulate these facilities.

Anthony: We often think about data and there’s negativity associated with that. But one thing that I’ve learned, particularly in the last four years, is that there’s good data too. There’s change that is happening, right? I mentioned early on in our conversation about the swim lesson with my daughter, and that’s progress, right? There’s institutional change happening as well. We talk about the algorithms and the issues there, but we know that there are institutions that have said, “Yes, this is a mistake.” I have concerns, and this is another conversation about what’s going to happen with AI. But I think that there are positive ways to look at that as well. So change is happening, and we have to think about also moving forward, and we want to tell those stories too.

Rovner: All right, well, I’m going to turn it over to the audience now. I see we already have someone waiting to ask a question. Please, before you ask your question, tell us who you are and where you’re from and please make it a question. Go ahead.

Abimisola: Hi, my name is Abimisola. I am from Nigeria, but I live in Austin, Texas. My question is about education. I feel like a big part of access and equity is education. So what are we doing to let people know that there are some services that are available to help them access the care that they need? I imagine that as, I guess, working through the pandemic, health literacy is not really a thing in the public. And so what are we doing to let people know that some of these services exist? And then also on the cultural humility end of things, what are we doing to make sure that providers are aware of this gap and how can they be helpful in their own way to make sure that equitable care does exist when people come in?

Barnes: So I think that we are at a moment of awakening when it comes to recognizing that you need trusted messengers in communities to actually engage in conversations about navigating health care systems or engaging in preventive health measures. Community health workers are really starting to have their day, and there is recent legislation that will actually allow them to be reimbursed for case management services related to their care of pregnant women. And so we are in a moment, that same legislation will also cover doulas and their case management services. But I think to your point, education, health literacy, having someone you trust who can walk you through that process is so critically important and those caregivers are finally getting the recognition that they deserve and being elevated and reimbursed. And so I think that that is a great step.

Linda Jackson: Hello, thank you for the information that you’ve provided. So I’m Linda Jackson and I’m with Huston-Tillotson University, which is a historically Black university a few miles from here. And I want to talk about the speed. One thing that happened again during the coronavirus is that because the university had systems in place, for example, the university was able to move from on-campus, on-ground, to online almost immediately with all of those funds and programs that were available. We’re in that same situation now with what we’re experiencing now, we have an increase in the number of students who want to attend college, an increase in our enrollment. We are a pipeline for the health industry, for some of the issues that we have to deal with, but the issue is that we can move quickly, but to get to all of those entities that are out there that can provide the funding that’s needed.

We have students we turned away who are waiting to get into college, and they’re interested in computer science and they’re interested in the health care industry and they’re interested in all those fields, but it’s the speed. We are here waiting, but the speed for which all of those resources have to come into place. And for example, we had entities who came to us with a doula program, with a doula idea, and we offer a certificate in the doula program to ensure that there are more doulas to provide that culturally sensitive care. And so my question is we’re here. We’re waiting. The resources need to come faster. And so I guess that’s a statement as opposed to a question.

Rovner: But thank you for raising the topic.

Barnes: I will just say, well, first off, my mother and my aunt are both graduates of Huston-Tillotson. So very excited to have you here. I think connecting the industries that need the workforce with the institutions who can provide the training is a key connection that we haven’t figured out how to do well because that’s where your resources would come to be able to support students getting trained to then fill the jobs where we have needs in the health care setting.

Rovner: And this is not just a health equity issue, this is the entire health system writ large.

Barnes: Absolutely.

Rovner: The difficulties with matching workforce needs with patient needs.

Robert Lilly: Good afternoon. Thank you very much for this lively conversation. My name is Robert Lilly. I am a criminal justice participatory defense organizer with Grassroots Leadership, and I’m also justice-impacted, formerly incarcerated, 54 years old with 21 years of my life spent in some institution or another. I want to just comment or not comment, but inquire from the two points that were made about equity. You mentioned that you wanted to, equity was about optimal health, no matter the background of the individual and also to eliminate barriers, especially for populations that are most vulnerable.

Texas has over 110 prisons, 135,000 people currently incarcerated, 600,000 every year exiting the system. Medicaid expansion is a challenge in Texas. My question before you is, in this era of mass incarceration, what options do we have? If policy can’t fix this problem, what other options exist? With the creative minds that you have, the thoughtful insights that you’re gaining from your research and reflection, how can you advise us to move, if our legislature won’t move? Do we depend on them alone to solve these problems, or is there an alternative route that supersedes them? And the last thing I’ll ask is how much of what we’re experiencing today, and we know America’s been historically racist, but how much of what we experiencing is a backlash to George Floyd?

Rovner: Oh, excellent question. Somebody want to take him on?

Anthony: I really think about if policy can’t do it, what can? And that’s where I think about for me, often it’s the institution of the Black family and starting young, what conversations do we need to have with our children as we move forward? That’s one thing that I, in particular, think about because I really think it comes down to literacy, education, being made aware, and also thinking about what can we do as individuals? But it really requires institutional change. I don’t want to act like that’s not at the core of the issue, but really want to talk about our future a lot and think about our future a lot. And so I think it starts at a really young age.

Rice: I wish we could tackle the whole iceberg all at once and just tear the whole thing down and start over. But the reality is we have to chip at it. And I think as we continue to do that, I think it starts to dismantle. And I don’t know that that offers much hope, but I think it’s kind of where we’re at and what we have to do is to keep moving because we wouldn’t have had this progress without that kind of fight.

Rovner: But … go ahead.

Rice: And vote.

Carley Deardorff: Hi, y’all. My name is Carley Deardorff, born and raised in Texas. I have lived in Texas my whole life, except I ran away to Spain for a little bit. Born in Lubbock, been in Austin for about 15 years now. I want to say one, thank you so much for your question previously. My question involves both formerly incarcerated but also aging. So aging parents, aging families. My partner and I were both raised by single moms, and so the outcomes for them, health-wise and also financially in terms of retirement and things like that are very, very slim. And so now in this next phase of life, navigating equity and health outcomes for them, it’s really scary because I don’t know. So before I cry, what do y’all have as opportunities and resources as you help someone age, and what that can look like in the space of life?

Barnes: So, thank you for being so vulnerable in talking about how incredibly challenging navigating the health care system and the systems that address nonmedical factors are for individuals. I don’t have an easy answer. There are organizations, and some that we have funded, that provide navigation services so that folks who know how to walk their way through these complicated systems can be helpful and maybe we can talk offline after we’re done. Again, they rely on trusted messengers in the communities who know what’s going on in the environment and then can actually help with the complicated side of things as well. And I think that’s probably the best bet for traversing something that doesn’t have to be as complicated as it is, but it is what it is at this point.

Meer Jumani: Do we have time for one more?

Barnes: We do.

Jumani: Perfect.

Rovner: Go ahead.

Jumani: So Meer Jumani, I work as a public health policy adviser to Commissioner Adrian Garcia, Harris County, Precinct 2. Sen. Alvarado’s District and Precinct 2 overlap a ton, but Precinct 2 has approximately 1.1 million constituents, of which 65% are Hispanic. We also have some of the most vast health disparities ranging from the highest mortality rate to the lowest home ownership rate. We touched on that amongst others, and despite launching programs ranging from free community-based clinics to lead abatement programs, we see a trend that these are most underutilized by the most vulnerable populations. So my question is, can you speak to what measures can be taken or what folks are not doing to change the mindset of these populations from a curative mindset to a preventative mindset?

Rice: I think it’s, as you mentioned before, trust, right? Those community navigators and making sure they’re out there giving voice to the community and sharing what resources are there. During covid, there was a community in northeast Georgia with a large immigrant population, and they actually ended up having some of the lowest rates of covid for the state because of those community navigators. They really hit the ground and it was kind of amazing what they did, going door to door if they had to, having weekly events and having conversations, making screenings accessible to everyone, and having navigators that spoke various different languages. I think those kind of things continue to help with that kind of outreach.

Anthony: I totally agree. And acknowledging painful history too. I think we have to realize who is tasked to do the fixing, and are we really giving agency and empowering those that need help the most? I’m thinking about particularly in Sikeston, Missouri, where the police chief tried to institute a program where people were to come, particularly Black residents in town. He wanted to have meetings with them and have conversations, but it just didn’t take off. But part of the reason why is because the level of mistrust, but also some acknowledgment of the history of racial violence that had gone on in the past in that community that people were still trying to heal from today. So I think that there’s so much work that has to be done in institutions. One of the first steps that they can take is acknowledging painful history as a way to move forward because we have to acknowledge our pain to have some joy too.

Rovner: I think that’s a wonderful place to leave it. I want to thank our panel so much and thank you to the audience for your great questions.

I hasten to add, if you enjoyed the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d always appreciate it if you left us a review; that helps other people find us, too. Special thanks, as always, to our technical guru back in Washington, D.C., Francis Ying, and our editor, Emmarie Huetteman. And thanks to the kind folks here at TribFest for helping us put this all together. We’ll be back in D.C. with our regular panel and all the news on Sept. 12. Until then, everyone, be healthy.

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Christina Kashiwada was traveling for work during the summer of 2018 when she noticed a small, itchy lump in her left breast.

She thought little of it at first. She did routine self-checks and kept up with medical appointments. But a relative urged her to get a mammogram. She took the advice and learned she had stage 3 breast cancer, a revelation that stunned her.

“I’m 36 years old, right?” said Kashiwada, a civil engineer in Sacramento, California. “No one’s thinking about cancer.”

About 11,000 Asian American and Pacific Islander women were diagnosed with breast cancer in 2021 and about 1,500 died. The latest federal data shows the rate of new breast cancer diagnoses in Asian American and Pacific Islander women — a group that once had relatively low rates of diagnosis — is rising much faster than that of many other racial and ethnic groups. The trend is especially sharp among young women such as Kashiwada.

About 55 of every 100,000 Asian American and Pacific Islander women under 50 were diagnosed with breast cancer in 2021, surpassing the rate for Black and Hispanic women and on par with the rate for white women, according to age-adjusted data from the National Institutes of Health. (Hispanic people can be of any race or combination of races but are grouped separately in this data.)

The rate of new breast cancer cases among Asian American and Pacific Islander women under 50 grew by about 52% from 2000 through 2021. Rates for AAPI women 50 to 64 grew 33% and rates for AAPI women 65 and older grew by 43% during that period. By comparison, the rate for women of all ages, races, and ethnicities grew by 3%.

Researchers have picked up on this trend and are racing to find out why it is occuring within this ethnically diverse group. They suspect the answer is complex, ranging from cultural shifts to pressure-filled lifestyles — yet they concede it remains a mystery and difficult for patients and their families to discuss because of cultural differences.

Helen Chew, director of the Clinical Breast Cancer Program at UC Davis Health, said the Asian American diaspora is so broad and diverse that simple explanations for the increase in breast cancer aren’t obvious.

“It’s a real trend,” Chew said, adding that “it is just difficult to tease out exactly why it is. Is it because we’re seeing an influx of people who have less access to care? Is it because of many things culturally where they may not want to come in if they see something on their breast?”

There’s urgency to solve this mystery because it’s costing lives. While women in most ethnic and racial groups are experiencing sharp declines in breast cancer death rates, about 12 of every 100,000 Asian American and Pacific Islander women of any age died from breast cancer in 2023, essentially the same death rate as in 2000, according to age-adjusted, provisional data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. The breast cancer death rate among all women during that period dropped 30%.

The CDC does not break out breast cancer death rates for many different groups of Asian American women, such as those of Chinese or Korean descent. It has, though, begun distinguishing between Asian American women and Pacific Islander women.

Nearly 9,000 Asian American women died from breast cancer from 2018 through 2023, compared with about 500 Native Hawaiian and Pacific Islander women. However, breast cancer death rates were 116% higher among Native Hawaiian and Pacific Islander women than among Asian American women during that period.

Rates of pancreatic, thyroid, colon, and endometrial cancer, along with non-Hodgkin lymphoma rates, have also recently risen significantly among Asian American and Pacific Islander women under 50, NIH data show. Yet breast cancer is much more common among young AAPI women than any of those other types of cancer — especially concerning because young women are more likely to face more aggressive forms of the disease, with high mortality rates.

“We’re seeing somewhere almost around a 4% per-year increase,” said Scarlett Gomez, a professor and epidemiologist at the University of California-San Francisco’s Helen Diller Family Comprehensive Cancer Center. “We’re seeing even more than the 4% per-year increase in Asian/Pacific Islander women less than age 50.”

Gomez is a lead investigator on a large study exploring the causes of cancer in Asian Americans. She said there is not yet enough research to know what is causing the recent spike in breast cancer. The answer may involve multiple risk factors over a long period of time.

“One of the hypotheses that we're exploring there is the role of stress,” she said. “We're asking all sorts of questions about different sources of stress, different coping styles throughout the lifetime.”

It’s likely not just that there’s more screening. “We looked at trends by stage at diagnosis and we are seeing similar rates of increase across all stages of disease,” Gomez said.

Veronica Setiawan, a professor and epidemiologist at the Keck School of Medicine of the University of Southern California, said the trend may be related to Asian immigrants adopting some lifestyles that put them at higher risk. Setiawan is a breast cancer survivor who was diagnosed a few years ago at the age of 49.

“Asian women, American women, they become more westernized so they have their puberty younger now — having earlier age at [the first menstrual cycle] is associated with increased risk,” said Setiawan, who is working with Gomez on the cancer study. “Maybe giving birth later, we delay childbearing, we don't breastfeed — those are all associated with breast cancer risks.”

Moon Chen, a professor at the University of California-Davis and an expert on cancer health disparities, added that only a tiny fraction of NIH funding is devoted to researching cancer among Asian Americans.

Whatever its cause, the trend has created years of anguish for many patients.

Kashiwada underwent a mastectomy following her breast cancer diagnosis. During surgery, doctors at UC Davis Health discovered the cancer had spread to lymph nodes in her underarm. She underwent eight rounds of chemotherapy and 20 sessions of radiation treatment.

Throughout her treatments, Kashiwada kept her ordeal a secret from her grandmother, who had helped raise her. Her grandmother never knew about the diagnosis. “I didn't want her to worry about me or add stress to her,” Kashiwada said. “She just would probably never sleep if she knew that was happening. It was very important to me to protect her.”

Kashiwada moved in with her parents. Her mom took a leave from work to help take care of her.

Kashiwada’s two young children, who were 3 and 6 at the time, stayed with their dad so she could focus on her recovery.

“The kids would come over after school,” she said. “My dad would pick them up and bring them over to see me almost every day while their dad was at work.”

Kashiwada spent months regaining strength after the radiation treatments. She returned to work but with a doctor’s instruction to avoid lifting heavy objects.

Kashiwada had her final reconstructive surgery a few weeks before covid lockdowns began in 2020. But her treatment was not finished.

Her doctors had told her that estrogen fed her cancer, so they gave her medicine to put her through early menopause. The treatment was not as effective as they had hoped. Her doctor performed surgery in 2021 to remove her ovaries.

More recently, she was diagnosed with osteopenia and will start injections to stop bone loss.

Kashiwada said she has moved past many of the negative emotions she felt about her illness and wants other young women, including Asian American women like her, to be aware of their elevated risk.

“No matter how healthy you think you are, or you're exercising, or whatever you're doing, eating well, which is all the things I was doing — I would say it does not make you invincible or immune,” she said. “Not to say that you should be afraid of everything, but just be very in tune with your body and what your body's telling you.”

Phillip Reese is a data reporting specialist and an associate professor of journalism at California State University-Sacramento.

This article was produced by KFF Health News, which publishes California Healthline, an editorially independent service of the California Health Care Foundation. Supplemental support comes from the Asian American Journalists Association-Los Angeles through The California Endowment.

KFF Health News is a national newsroom that produces in-depth journalism about health issues and is one of the core operating programs at KFF—an independent source of health policy research, polling, and journalism. Learn more about KFF.

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Julie Rovner is chief Washington correspondent and host of KFF Health News’ weekly health policy news podcast, “What the Health?” A noted expert on health policy issues, Julie is the author of the critically praised reference book “Health Care Politics and Policy A to Z,” now in its third edition.

The conventions are over, and the general-election campaign is officially on. While reproductive health is sure to play a key role in the race between Vice President Kamala Harris and former President Donald Trump, it’s less clear what role other health issues will play.

Meanwhile, Medicare recently announced negotiated prices of the first 10 drugs selected under the 2022 Inflation Reduction Act. The announcement is boosting attention to what was already a major pocketbook issue for both Republicans and Democrats.

This week’s panelists are Julie Rovner of KFF Health News, Joanne Kenen of Politico and Johns Hopkins University’s schools of nursing and public health, Shefali Luthra of The 19th, and Alice Miranda Ollstein of Politico.

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Alice Miranda Ollstein
Politico

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Among the takeaways from this week’s episode:

• The Democratic National Convention highlighted reproductive rights issues as never before, with a parade of public officials and private citizens recounting some of their most personal, painful memories of needing abortion care. But abortion rights activists remain concerned that Harris has not promised to push beyond codifying the rights established under Roe v. Wade, which they believe allows too many barriers to care.
• As reproductive rights have taken center stage in her campaign, Harris has been less forthcoming about her other health policy plans so far. In her career, she has embraced fights against anticompetitive behavior by insurers and hospitals and in drug pricing.
• Would former President Donald Trump make Robert Kennedy Jr. his next health secretary? Even many Republicans would consider his elevation a bridge too far. Polls show Trump stands to gain from Kennedy’s departure from the presidential race, but likely only slightly more than Harris.
• In other national health news, abortion access will be on the ballot this fall in Arizona and Montana, and the federal government recently announced the first drug prices secured under Medicare’s new drug-negotiation program.

Also this week, Rovner interviews KFF Health News’ Tony Leys, who reported and wrote the latest KFF Health News-NPR “Bill of the Month” installment about a woman who fought back after being charged for two surgeries despite undergoing only one. Do you have a confusing or outrageous medical bill you want to share? Tell us about it!

Plus, for “extra credit,” the panelists suggest health policy stories they read this week that they think you should read, too: 

Julie Rovner: The New York Times’ “Hot Summer Threatens Efficacy of Mail-Order Medications,” by Emily Baumgaertner.

Joanne Kenen: The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel’s “Who Is Gus Walz and What Is a Non-Verbal Learning Disorder?” by Natalie Eilbert. 

Alice Miranda Ollstein: The Wall Street Journal’s “The Fight Against DEI Programs Shifts to Medical Care,” by Theo Francis and Melanie Evans.  

Shefali Luthra: The Washington Post’s “Weight-Loss Drugs Are a Hot Commodity. But Not in Low-Income Neighborhoods,” by Ariana Eunjung Cha. 

click to open the transcript

Transcript: Let the General Election Commence

KFF Health News’ ‘What the Health?’Episode Title: ‘Let the General Election Commence’Episode Number: 361Published: Aug. 23, 2024

[Editor’s note: This transcript was generated using both transcription software and a human’s light touch. It has been edited for style and clarity.] 

Julie Rovner: Hello, and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Julie Rovner, chief Washington correspondent for KFF Health News, and I’m joined by some of the best and smartest health reporters in Washington. We’re taping this week on Friday, Aug. 23, at 10 a.m. As always, news happens fast and things might’ve changed by the time you hear this. So here we go. Today we are joined via teleconference by Joanne Kenen of the Johns Hopkins schools of public health and nursing and Politico Magazine.

Joanne Kenen: Hi, everybody.

Rovner: Shefali Luthra of The 19th.

Shefali Luthra: Good morning.

Rovner: And Alice Miranda Ollstein of Politico.

Alice Miranda Ollstein: Hello.

Rovner: Later in this episode, we’ll have my interview with KFF Health News’ Tony Leys, who reported and wrote the latest KFF Health News-NPR “Bill of the Month,” about a woman who got two bills for the same surgery and refused to back down. But first, this week’s news. So, now both conventions are over. Labor Day is just over a week away. And I think it’s safe to declare the general election campaign officially on. What did we learn from the just-completed Democratic [National] Convention, other than that Beyoncé didn’t show up?

Luthra: I think the obvious thing we learned is there is a lot of abortion for Democrats to talk about and very little abortion Republicans would like to. I did the fun brain exercise of going back through old Democratic conventions to see how much abortion came up. It might be interesting to note that in 2012, for instance, [the former president of Planned Parenthood] Cecile Richards spoke, never mentioned abortion.

A Planned Parenthood patient came and didn’t talk about abortion, talked about endometriosis care. And I think that really underscores what a shift we have seen in the party from treating abortion as an issue for the base, but not one that got center stage very often. And that shifted a bit in 2016, but is really very different now.

We had abortion every night, and that is just such a marked contrast from the RNC, where Republicans went to great lengths to avoid the topic because Democrats are largely on the winning side of this issue and Republicans are not.

Rovner: I’ve watched every Democratic convention since 1984. I have to say, I’m still trying to wrap my brain around the idea of all of these, and not just women, but men and [Sen.] Tammy Duckworth talking about IVF and women who had various difficulties with pregnancy. Usually, it would be tucked into a section of one night, but every single night we had people getting up and telling their individual stories. I was kind of surprised. Alice, you wanted to add something?

Ollstein: Yeah. We also wrote about how the breadth of the kinds of abortion stories being told has also changed. There’s been frustration on the left for a while that only these medical emergency cases have been lifted up.

Rovner: The good abortions.

Ollstein: Exactly. So there’s a fear that that further stigmatizes people who just had an abortion because they simply didn’t want to be pregnant, which is the majority of cases. These really awful medical emergencies are the minority, even though they are happening, and people do want those stories told. But I think it was notable that the head of Planned Parenthood talked about a case that was simply someone who didn’t want to be pregnant and the lengths she had to go through to get an abortion.

I think we’re still mostly seeing the more politically palatable, sympathetic stories of sexual assault and medical emergencies, but I think you’re starting to see the discourse broaden a little bit more. It’s still not what a lot of activists want, but it’s widening. It’s opening the door a little bit more to those different stories.

Rovner: And certainly having [Kamala] Harris at the top of the ticket rather than Biden, I mean, she’s been the point person of this administration on reproductive health even before Roe v. Wade got overturned.

Ollstein: Right. And I think it’s been interesting to see the policy versus politics side of this, where politically she’s seen as such a stronger ally on abortion rights, and her messaging is much more aggressive than [President Joe] Biden’s, a lot more specific. But when it comes to the policy, she’s exactly where Biden was. She says, “I want to restore Roe v. Wade,” where a lot of activists say that’s not enough. Roe v. Wade left a lot of people out in the cold who couldn’t get an abortion that they wanted later in pregnancy, or they ran into all these restrictions earlier in pregnancy that were allowed under Roe. And so I think we’re going to see that tension going forward of the messaging is more along the lines of what the progressive activists want, but the policy isn’t.

Luthra: And to build on Alice’s point, I mean, a lot of the speakers we had this week are speakers who would’ve been there for a Biden campaign as well. Amanda Zurawski was a very effective Biden surrogate. She is now a Harris surrogate.

And I think what’s really important for us to remember as we look not just to November, but to potentially January and beyond, is that what Harris is campaigning on, what Biden tried to campaign on, although he struggled to say the words, is something that probably isn’t going to happen because they’re talking about signing a law to codify Roe’s protections and they in all likelihood won’t have the votes to do so.

Rovner: Yes. And they either have to get rid of the filibuster in the Senate or they have to have 60 votes, neither of which seems probable. And as I have pointed out many times, the Democrats have never had enough votes to codify Roe v. Wade. There’s never actually been a basically pro-choice Congress. The House has never been pro-choice until Trump was president, when obviously there was nothing they could do.

It’s not that Congress didn’t want to, or the Democrats in Congress didn’t want to or didn’t try, they never had the votes. For years and years and years, I would say, there were a significant number of Republicans who were pro-abortion rights and a significant, even larger number of Democrats who were anti-abortion. It’s only in the last decade that it’s become absolutely partisan, that basically each party has kicked out the ones on the other side. Joanne, you wanted to add something?

Kenen: Remember that the very last snag that almost pulled down the Affordable Care Act at zero hour, or zero minus, after zero hour, was anti-abortion Democrats. And that was massaged out and they cut a deal and they put in language and they got it through. But no, the phenomenon Julie’s talking about was that the dynamics have changed because of the polarization.

I mean, it wasn’t just abortion; there were centrists in both parties, and they’re pretty much gone. The other thing that struck me last night is there was rape victims and victims of traffic and abuse speaking both within the context of abortion. I mean, that was a mesmerizing presentation by a really courageous young woman.

And then there were other episodes about sexual violence against women, a nod to Biden a couple of times, who actually wrote the original Violence Against Women Act in ’94, part of the crime bill, but also in terms of liberal Democrats or progressives who … “prosecutor” isn’t their favorite title. But because they tied these themes together or at least link them or they were there in a basket together of her as a protector of victims of trafficking, rape, and abuse, starting when she was in high school with her friend.

So I thought that that was another thing that we would not have spoken about. You did not have young women talking about being raped by their stepfather and impregnated at age 12.

Rovner: So aside from reproductive rights, which was obviously a headline of this convention, it’s almost impossible to discern what a second Trump administration might mean for health because Trump has been literally all over the place on most health issues. And he may or may not hire back the former staffers who compiled Project 2025.

But we don’t really know what a Harris administration would mean either. There is still no policy section on the official Harris for President website. One thing we do seem to know is that she seems to have backed away from her support for “Medicare for All,” which she kind of ran on in 2019.

Luthra: Sort of.

Rovner: Yeah, kind of, sort of. What else do we know about what she would do on health care other than on reproductive health, where she’s been quite clear?

Ollstein: So the focus on the policies that have been rolled out so far have been cost of living and going after price-gouging. She also has a history, as California attorney general, of using antitrust and those kinds of legal tools to go after monopolistic practices in health care. In California, she did that on the insurance front and the hospital front and the drug pricing front. So there is an expectation that that would be a focus. But again, they have not disclosed to us what the plans are.

Kenen: I mean, one of the immediate things, and I watched a fair amount of the convention and none of us absorbed every word, but I don’t think I heard a single mention of it was the extension of the ACA subsidies, which expire next year. I mean, if they mentioned it, it was in passing by somebody. So you didn’t really hear too much ACA, right? You hear that wonderful line from President [Barack] Obama when he said the Affordable Care Act, and then he said that aside: “Now that it’s popular, they don’t call it Obamacare anymore.”

But you didn’t hear a lot of ACA discussion. You heard a lot of drug price and you heard a lot of some vague Medicare, mostly in the context of drug prices. But there wasn’t a segment of one night devoted to the health policy. So I mean, I think we can assume she’s pretty much going to be Biden-like. I would be surprised if she didn’t fight to preserve the subsidies.

The Medicare drug stuff is in law now and going ahead. I think Julie wants to come back to that, but I don’t think we know what’s different. And I don’t know what, in that to-do list, I don’t think she articulated the priorities, although I would imagine she’ll start talking about the subsidies because the Republicans are probably going to oppose that. But no, it wasn’t a big focus. It was like sprinkles on an ice cream cone instead of serving a sundae.

Rovner: It’s hard to remember that just four years ago in 2020, there was this huge fight about the future of health care. Do we want to go to Medicare for All? What do we want to do about the ACA? Biden was actually the most conservative, I think, of the Democratic candidates when it came to health care.

Kenen: And then he expanded things way more than people expected him to.

Rovner: Yes, that’s true. I was going to say, but the other thing that jumped out at me is how many liberals, [Rep.] Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, talking like a moderate basically, I mean, giving this big speech. It feels like the left wing of the Democratic Party, at least on health care, has figured out that it’s better to be pragmatic and get something done, which apparently the right wing of the Republican Party has not figured out.

Luthra: Well, part of what happened, right, is, I mean, the left lost in 2020. Joe Biden won. He became president. And there’s this real interesting effort that we saw this week to try and recapture the energy of 2008, 2012, the Obama era, and that wasn’t a Medicare-for-All-type time. That was much more vibes and pragmatism, which is what we are seeing now.

Kenen: The other thing is that the progressives, more centrist, more moderate, whatever you call the mainstream bring, they kissed and made up. I mean, [Sen.] Bernie Sanders became an incredible backer of Biden. I mean, they fought on the original Bring [Build] Back Better. That became the watered-down Inflation Reduction [Act]. They had some policy differences and some of which were stark.

But basically, Bernie Sanders became this bulwark for it, helped create party unity, helped move it ahead, supported Biden when he was thinking about staying in the race. So I think that Bernie’s support of Biden, who did do an awful lot of things on the progressive agenda; he did expand health care, although not through single-payer, but through expanded ACA. He did do a lot on climate. He did do a lot of things they cared about, and the party is less divided. We don’t know how long that’ll last. We had, not just unusual, but unprecedented last two months. So these things like Medicare for All versus strengthening the ACA, they’ll bubble up again, but they’re not going to divide the party in the next seven weeks, eight weeks, whatever we’re out: 77 days. Do the math, 10 weeks.

Rovner: Seventy-some days. In other political news, third-party candidate and anti-vax crusader Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is going to drop out of the race later today and perhaps endorse Donald Trump. The rumor is he’s hoping to win a position in a second Trump administration, if there is one, possibly even secretary of Health and Human Services. What would that look like? A lot of odd faces from our panelists here.

Ollstein: I’m always skeptical. There’s also talk about Elon Musk getting a Cabinet job. I’m always skeptical of these incredibly wealthy individuals — who, currently, as private citizens, can basically do whatever they want — I have a hard time imagining them wanting to submit to the constrictures and the oversight of being in the Cabinet. I would be surprised. I think that it sounds good to have that power, but to actually have to do that job, I think, would not be appealing to such people. But I could be surprised.

Rovner: We did have Steve Mnuchin as secretary of the Treasury, and he seemed to have a pretty good time doing it.

Ollstein: I guess so, but I think his background was maybe a little more suited to that. I don’t know.

Kenen: Mnuchin, you’ve also had Democrats who appoint Wall Street types. Rubin being one of several, at least.

Rovner: We tend to have billionaires at the Treasury Department.

Kenen: The idea of Bobby Kennedy running HHS, I think even many Republicans who support Trump would find a bridge too far. And remember they want … if you look at the part of the Republican Party that really equate … their priority is anti-abortion, that’s it for them. There’s some on the right who talked about — I’m pretty sure this is in 2025, but at least it’s out there — change it to the Department of Life.

There’s a faction within the Republican Party who sees HHS as the way of driving an anti-abortion agenda. What’s left of abortion, right? It has oversight over the NIH [National Institutes of Health] and FDA [Food and Drug Administration] and CDC [Centers for Disease Control and Prevention], et cetera. You can’t say that Trump won’t do something because he is a very unpredictable person. So, who knows what Donald Trump would do? I don’t think it’s all that likely that Bobby Kennedy gets HHS.

But I do think that in order to get the endorsement that Trump wants, he’d have to promise him something in the health realm — whether it’s a special adviser for vaccine safety, who knows what it would be? But something that makes him feel like he got something in exchange for the support.

Rovner: I do wonder what the support would mean politically to have prominent anti-vaxxer. If Trump is out trying to capture swing voters, this doesn’t seem necessarily a way to appeal to suburban moms.

Kenen: Remember the vaccine commission to study vaccine safety? And it was Bobby Kennedy who came out of a meeting with Trump and said it was going to happen, that he was going to be the chair of it. The commission didn’t happen, and Bobby Kennedy didn’t chair it. So we already know that this goes back, what, eight years now. So there’s going to be a tit-for-tat. That’s politics. Whether the tat is HHS secretary, I’m skeptical. But again, I’d never say anything isn’t possible in Washington.

Rovner: If nothing else, this year has shown us that …

Kenen: I think it’s extremely unlikely.

Luthra: To your point about who Bobby Kennedy appeals to, the polls tell us that everyone who supports him, by and large, would vote for Trump if he dropped out. So I mean, that’s obviously why this would happen. It’s because it is a net gain for Trump and his calculus is probably that it would outweigh the losses he might get from having someone with a strong anti-vax bent on his side. I think that’s a pretty obvious, to me at least, gain for him rather than loss, especially given how close the race is.

Rovner: While we are on the subject of national politics and abortion, former President Trump this week said in an interview with CBS that he would not enforce the Comstock Act to basically impose a national abortion ban, reiterating that he wants to leave it to the states to decide what they want to do. Alice, it’s fair to say this did not go over very well with the anti-abortion base, right?

Ollstein: That’s right. It’s interesting. I reached out to lots of different folks in the anti-abortion movement to get their take, and I expected at least some of them to say, “Oh, Trump’s just saying that. He doesn’t really mean it. He’ll still do it anyways.” None of them said that. They all completely took him seriously and said that they were extremely upset about this. I mean, it’s also not happening in a vacuum.

They were already upset about the RNC [Republican National Convention] platform having some anti-abortion language being taken out of it. There is still some anti-abortion language in there. Folks should remember him declining to endorse a national abortion ban. Him refusing to say how he plans to vote in Florida’s referendum on abortion coming up. So this is one more thing that they’re upset about. And they told me that they think it could really cost him some votes and enthusiasm from the base.

He’s having trouble winning over these moderate swing voters. If that’s true, then he needs every vote on the more religious right/conservative wing of things. And they’re saying, look, most people are probably going to vote for him anyways because they don’t want Kamala Harris to be president. But will they volunteer? Will they tell a friend? Will they go knock on doors? Begrudgingly voting for someone versus being enthusiastic difference.

Rovner: I think it’s fair to say that it was the anti-abortion right that basically got him over the finish line in 2016 when he put out that list of potential Supreme Court nominees and signed a now-infamous letter that Marjorie Dannenfelser of the SBA [Susan B. Anthony Pro-Life America] list put together. Then the anti-abortion movement put a lot of money into door-knocking and getting out the vote. And obviously, as we all remember, it was just a few thousand votes in a couple of states that made him president.

So I was a little bit surprised that he was that definitive — although as we said 14 times already this morning — he often says one thing and does another, or says one thing and says another thing later, right.

Kenen: In the same day!

Rovner: Or in the same conversation sometimes. I was interested to see Kamala Harris in her speech refer to the Comstock Act without doing it by name. I thought that was artfully done.

Ollstein: Yeah, and several other speakers did talk about it by name, which is interesting because I think earlier this year there was this attitude among Democrats and some abortion rights leaders that there should not be a lot of talk about the Comstock Act because they didn’t want to give the right ideas. But I think now it’s pretty clear that the right doesn’t need to be given ideas. They already had these ideas. And so there’s a lot more open talk about it.

And just this piece of Project 2025, along with all of the focus on Project 2025 in general, just really seemed to resonate with voters in a really unusual way. And no matter how much Trump tries to disavow it or distance himself from it, it doesn’t seem like people are convinced, because these are very close allies of Trump who worked for him, who are likely to work for him in the future, who are the authors of this.

Rovner: And who put together this whole list of people who could work in a second administration. It’s basically the second Trump term all ready to go. It’s hard to imagine where he would then find a list of people to populate his agencies if not turning to the list that was put together by Project 2025.

So Trump says, as we’ve mentioned, that he wants voters in each state to decide how to regulate abortion. And that’s pretty much what he’s getting. Since we last talked, several states have finalized abortion rights ballot questions. But some have come with a couple of twists. Alice, where are we on the state ballot measure checklist?

Ollstein: It’s been a crazy couple of weeks. So we have Arizona and Montana certified for the ballot. Those are two huge states that also have major Senate races. Arizona is a presidential swing state. Montana, arguably not. But these are states that are going to get a blitz of ads and campaign attention. I think there is an expectation that the abortion measures on the ballot will benefit the Democratic candidates.

I would caution people to be skeptical about this. We’ve done analyses of the abortion ballot measures that have been on the ballot in the past couple of years in other states, and they did not always benefit the Democratic candidates who shared the ballot. Of course, this is a presidential year. It could be totally different.

At the same time, the big news this week was that a Arkansas Supreme Court ruling means that their abortion rights ballot measure will almost certainly not be on the ballot in November. And there’s a lot of consternation about that. The dissenting justices accused the majority of making up rules out of whole cloth and treating different ballot measures differently based on the content.

So basically there was a medical marijuana ballot measure and the sponsors of it wrote a brief saying, “Hey, we made the same alleged paperwork error that the abortion rights folks are accused of making, yet ours was certified for the ballot and theirs wasn’t. What gives?” So there are accusations of the conservative officials of Arkansas making these rulings to prevent a vote on abortion rights in that state. So they could try again in 2026. They are weighing their options right now.

Rovner: So abortion issues are not just bubbling among voters and in the elections. We now have a series of lawsuits with patients accusing hospitals that deny them emergency care of violating the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act. Some may remember this was also the subject of a Supreme Court case this term. For those who have forgotten, Shefali, what happened with that Supreme Court case? Where are we with EMTALA?

Luthra: Great question, Julie. We are waiting, as ever, and we will be waiting for a long time because the Supreme Court after taking up that case said, “Actually, never mind. We were wrong to take this case up now. It should go back to the lower courts and continue to progress.” And what that means is uncertainty. It does mean that EMTALA’s protections exist for now in Idaho. They do not exist in Texas, where there is a related corresponding case going through the courts as well.

But regardless, EMTALA’s protections are quite meaningful for providers compared to not having them. But they are still pretty vague and pretty limited in terms of how abortion can come up in pregnancy. And that’s why we are still seeing patients filing these complaints saying, “My rights were violated. I did not get this emergency care I needed until it was very late.” But the problem there is that: A, EMTALA is retroactive.

So these complaints only come up when people know to file them; when they have perhaps already suffered medical consequences such as losing a fallopian tube, as two women in Texas both reported experiencing. You know, serious implications for their future fertility. And the other thing that’s important to note is that complaints are one step, but enforcement is another one.

And we haven’t seen a ton of hospitals being penalized by the federal government for not giving people care in these medical emergencies. And so if you’re a hospital, the dilemma is complicated, but in some ways not. Because if you provide care for someone and you find yourself in violation of state law, that’s a felony, potentially. But if you are going against EMTALA, well, maybe it’ll be reported, maybe it won’t be. Maybe you’ll be fined or penalized by the federal government, but maybe you won’t be. And that creates a real challenge for patients in particular because they are once again caught in a situation where they need emergency medical care, and the incentives are against hospitals providing it.

Ollstein: The Biden administration has not been transparent on how many complaints have been filed, how many hospitals they’ve investigated, what measures they’ve taken to make hospitals correct their behavior, whether they’ve come into compliance or not, whether they are getting these penalties, including losing Medicare status, which is one of the most severe penalties possible.

We just don’t know. And so they say they’re making this big focus on EMTALA enforcement, but we are not really seeing the evidence of that. And the only way we even know anything is happening is when the patients themselves are choosing to disclose it, either to advocacy groups or the media.

Rovner: Or the Democratic National Convention, where we saw several of these stories. It is a continuing theme as we go forward. Well, moving on. While we were celebrating the 50th anniversary of ERISA [Employee Retirement Income Security Act] here on “What the Health?” last week — and if you did not hear that special episode, I highly recommend it — the Biden administration unveiled negotiated prices for the first 10 drugs chosen under the new authority granted by the Inflation Reduction Act.

It’s hard to tell how much better the prices that they got are because so much of the information remains proprietary. But Joanne, what’s the reaction been, both in the drug industry and larger in the political realm?

Kenen: The drug industry obviously doesn’t like it. This is only 10 drugs this year, but it’ll be more in the future. Look, I’m not so sure how well that message has gotten through yet. The Medicare drugs came under what ended up being called the Inflation Reduction Act. There’s several measures in it. There’s protection for everybody in Medicare, how much you spend on drugs in a year, it’s $2,000. That’s it. Which is a big difference from what some of the out-of-pocket vulnerabilities people had in the past.

When you look at the polls or you look at interviews with undecided voters, you wonder who’s paying attention other than us? The Democrats have wanted this for more than 20 years. Twenty years is a conservative estimate. I mean, it was part of the fight over what became the Medicare Modernization Act in 2003.

They fought for it every year. They lost every year. They finally got it through. So the idea of having Medicare negotiating drug prices is a huge victory for the Democrats. Ten drugs, not a big deal for the industry, but they know something changed. They will fight every opportunity for a lawsuit or a lobbying campaign or blocking a new regulation or the next round of negotiations.

This is going to be probably just like these annual fights we have about physician pay. This’ll be an annual fight about how much can PhRMA punch back. That would assume that a Democrat wins and that these policies don’t get rescinded. It’s a big deal. It’s not a big deal for individual pocketbooks yet, but it’s a big, big deal on the balance of power between PhRMA, which is so powerful, and the federal government, which pays for these drugs.

Rovner: I’m reminded of a sentence I wrote about the Medicare Catastrophic Coverage Act, which was passed and repealed much at the behest of the drug industry because it had what would’ve been the first Medicare outpatient drug benefit ever. And I wrote, the drug industry fought this tooth and nail because they were concerned that if Medicare started covering drugs, they would want to have some say in how much they cost. That was, I think, 1989.

Kenen: Right.

Rovner: And here we are, however many years later it is.

Kenen: It’s really hard to take away a benefit, as the Republicans learned when they spent all that energy trying and failing to repeal the ACA. Once people have a benefit, it’s hard to say, “Whoops! No more.” However, that doesn’t mean there’s not fights about technical matters or how the regulations are worded or how deep discounts are or what other things they could get in exchange that make up for the losses on this.

I mean, PhRMA is really a huge lobby, hugely influential, and sympathetic in some ways because they do create a pro … — unlike something like tobacco — they do create products that saves our lives, right? And their argument, innovation, and those arguments resonate with people. But I don’t really see this turning back. I don’t think any of us can predict how PhRMA will regain some of the influence that it did lose in this battle.

It’s certainly not permanent defeat of PhRMA. I mean, PhRMA is powerful. PhRMA has allies in both parties. But this was a huge victory for the Democrats. They got something after 20-plus years.

Rovner: Well, finally this week, earlier this spring we talked at some length about the Biden administration’s Federal Trade Commission proposal to ban noncompete clauses, which in health care often applied to even the lowest-level jobs. It was supposed to take effect Sept. 4, but a federal district court judge in Texas has ruled in favor of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce that the agency lacks the authority to implement such a sweeping rule.

And the appeals court there in the 5th Circuit is notoriously conservative and unlikely to overturn that lower-court decision even if Vice President Harris wins and becomes president. Are we just going to continue to see every agency effort blocked by some Trump-appointed judge in Texas? That seems to be what’s happening now.

Ollstein: I mean, I think especially with the recent Supreme Court rulings on Chevron, I think we’re just … I mean, that plus the makeup of the judiciary means that executive power is just a lot more curtailed than it used to be. Theoretically, that should apply to both parties to whoever is president, but we have seen courts be very politicized and treat different things differently. So I think that it will be a special challenge for a Democratic or progressive administration to push those policies going forward.

Rovner: And of course in Texas, as we have pointed out on many occasions, there are all these single-judge districts, where if you file in certain places you know which judge you’re going to get. I mean, it’s the ultimate in judge shopping.

Luthra: I was just thinking about [U.S. District Judge] Reed O’Connor and [U.S. District Judge] Matthew Kacsmaryk, two names that listeners know well.

Rovner: Yes, that’s right. And this was a third judge, by the way. This was neither Reed O’Connor nor Matthew Kacsmaryk in this case.

Ollstein: But a secret third thing.

Rovner: A secret, a secret third thing.

Kenen: I mean, what Alice just referred to as the Supreme Court reducing the power of the regulators, and they said Congress has to pass the laws. You’re not going to get something this sweeping through Congress. But could you end up getting bits of it written into legislation about hospital personnel or doctors or things like that? I can see nibbles added in certain fields. And also you’re going to see some of it at the state level. I’m pretty sure Maryland has passed some kind of a noncompete.

Rovner: Yeah, there are states that have their own noncompete laws.

Kenen: I think they’ll go at it piecemeal. They may not be able to do anything that huge, all noncompetes, but by profession, or sector by sector, I think they may try to keep nibbling away at it. But the effort that we saw is gone.

Rovner: I mean, just to broaden it out, obviously this was something that the Biden administration has relied on the power of the FTC, the Federal Trade Commission, something that the Biden administration has highlighted. It’s something that I think Vice President Harris is relying on going forward. So this is probably not a good sign for wanting to make policy in this way.

See, nods all around. All right, that is this week’s news. Now we will play my “Bill of the Month” interview with Tony Leys, and then we will come back and do our extra credits.

I am so pleased to welcome to the podcast my KFF Health News colleague Tony Leys, who reported and wrote the latest KFF Health News-NPR “Bill of the Month.” Tony, welcome back to “What the Health?”

Tony Leys: Hi, Julie.

Rovner: So tell us about this month’s patient: who she is, where she’s from, and what kind of medical care she got.

Leys: The patient is Jamie Holmes, who lives in Washington state. In 2019, she went to a surgical center to have her fallopian tubes tied. While she was on her anesthesia, the surgeon noticed early signs of endometriosis, a common condition in which fibrous tissue grows in and around the uterus. The surgeon took care of that secondary issue. Holmes said he later told her the whole operation was done within the allotted time for the original surgery, which was about an hour.

Rovner: As one who’s had and knows a lot of people who’ve had endometriosis, it is extremely painful and very difficult to treat. So medically, at least this story seems to have a happy ending, a doctor who was on his toes spotted an impending problem and took care of it on the spot. But then, as we say, the bill came.

Leys: The bill came. The surgery center billed her for two separate operations, $4,810 each.

Rovner: So even though she only went under anesthesia once and simply had two different things done to her at the time.

Leys: Right. And the surgery center is the place that does the support work for the operation. And there was just one operation.

Rovner: So obviously she figured this must be a mistake and complained. What happened?

Leys: She thought once she explained what really happened, they would go, “Oh,” and they would fix it. But that didn’t work. And after adjustments and the insurance payment for the one operation, they said that she still owed the surgery center $2,605, and she said, “Nope.”

Rovner: This was in 2019. So obviously things have happened since then.

Leys: Right. The bill was turned over to a collections agency, which wound up suing Holmes last year for about $3,800, including interest and fees.

Rovner: Now, to be clear, Jamie says she doesn’t object to paying extra for the extra service that she got. What she does object to is being charged as if it was two separate surgical procedures. So what happened next?

Leys: I mean, she joked that it was as if she went to a fast-food restaurant and ordered a value meal, ended up with one extra order of fries and then got charged for two full meals. The collections agency went to court. They asked for a summary judgment, which could have allowed the collection agency to garnish Holmes’ wages.

But she went to a couple of court hearings and explained her side, and the judge ruled last February that he wasn’t going to grant summary judgment to the collection agency. And if it really wanted to pursue the matter, it would have to go to trial. And she has not heard from them since then.

Rovner: Because presumably it would cost them more to go to trial than it would to collect her … however many couple of thousand dollars they say she still owes, right?

Leys: That could certainly be the explanation. We don’t know.

Rovner: So what’s a takeaway here?

Leys: The takeaway is if you get a bill that’s totally bogus, don’t necessarily pay it. Don’t be afraid to fight it. And if someone sues you, don’t be afraid to go to court and tell your side of it.

Rovner: Yeah, because I mean, that’s mostly what happens is that these collection agencies go to court, nobody shows up on the other side, and they get to start garnishing wages, right?

Leys: Exactly. That’s probably what would’ve happened here.

Rovner: She didn’t even have to hire a lawyer. She just showed up and told her side of the story.

Leys: And her take on it is she could have arranged to pay it. It’s not a huge, huge amount of money. But she just wasn’t going to do it. So she stood her ground.

Rovner: And as we pointed out, she was willing to pay for the extra order of fries. She just wasn’t willing to pay for an entire second meal that she didn’t get.

Leys: Right. I mean, she told me, “I didn’t get the extra burger and drink and a toy.”

Rovner: There we go. So basically fight back if you have a problem, and don’t be afraid to fight back.

Leys: Exactly.

Rovner: Tony Leys, thank you so much.

Leys: Thanks, Julie.

Rovner: OK, we are back. It’s time for our extra credits. That’s when we each recommend a story we read this week we think you should read, too. Don’t worry if you miss the details. We will include links to all of these stories in our show notes on your phone or other device. Alice, you chose first this week. Why don’t you go first?

Ollstein: Sure. So I had an interesting piece from The Wall Street Journal by Theo Francis and Melanie Evans called “The Fight Against DEI Programs Shifts to Medical Care.” So we’ve seen this growing effort from conservative activists to go after so-called DEI [diversity, equity, and inclusion] programs, to go after affirmative action, to go after a lot of various programs in government and in the private sector that take race into account when allocating resources.

And so now this is coming to health care where you have a lot of major players. This story is about a complaint filed against the Cleveland Clinic. But throughout health care, you have efforts to say, OK, certain racial groups and other demographics have higher risk and are less likely to get treatment for various diseases. This one is about strokes, but it applies in many areas of health care. And so they have created these targeted programs to try to help those populations because they are at higher risk and have been historically marginalized and denied care. And now those efforts are coming under attack. And so it’s unclear. So this is a federal complaint, and so the federal government would have to agree with it and take action. I don’t think that’s super likely from the Biden administration to crack down on a minority health care program. But this could be yet another thing people should keep in mind regarding the stakes of the election because a conservative administration could very well take a different approach.

Rovner: Shefali.

Luthra: My story is from The Washington Post. It is by Ariana Eunjung Cha, and the headline is “Weight-Loss Drugs Are a Hot Commodity. But Not in Low-Income Neighborhoods.” I think this is a really smart framing and it gets at something that folks have been worried about for a long time, which is that we have these revolutionary drugs like Ozempic and Wegovy. They show massive improvements for people with diabetes, for people with obesity. And they are so expensive and often not covered by Medicaid. Or if you are uninsured, you cannot get them. And what this story gets at really …

Rovner: If you’re insured, you can’t get them in a lot of cases.

Luthra: It’s true. What I love about this story is it sets us in place. It takes us to Atlanta and helps us see in the different parts of the city, based on income, on access to all sorts of other, to use the jargon, race, social determinants of health, obesity and diabetes are already very unequal diseases. They hit people differently because of access to safe places to exercise, walkable streets, affordable groceries, time to cook, all of that. And then you add on it another layer, which is this drug that can be very helpful is just out of reach for people who are already at higher risk because of systemic inequalities. The story also gets into some of the more social challenges that you might see from a drug like Ozempic. People saying, “Well, I know that rich people get that drug, but how do I know they would be giving the same thing to me? How do I know that the side effects will not be really damaging down the line because these drugs are so new?” And what it speaks to, in a way that I think we’re seeing a lot more journalism do very intelligently, is that there are going to be very real challenges — economic and cultural and social and political — to helping these drugs have the impact that they were touted as potentially able to have.

Rovner: Indeed. Joanne.

Kenen: Well, after that amazing moment with Gus Walz and his dad on the convention floor, I looked up the quick 24-hour coverage of what was going to best explain what a nonverbal learning disorder is and a little bit about who Gus Walz is. And Natalie Eilbert of The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel did a nice piece [“Who Is Gus Walz and What Is a Non-Verbal Learning Disorder?”]

Nothing I read yesterday answered every question I had about this particular processing disorder, but this was a good one and it explained what kind of things kids with these kinds of issues have trouble comprehending, and also what kind of things they’re really good at. This is not a learning disability. You can be really, really smart and still have a learning disability.

There’s actually an acronym, as there always is, which is GTLD: gifted and talented and learning disabled. Much of the country responded really warmly, as we all saw, and some of the country did not. But in terms of just what is this disorder and how does it affect your ability to communicate, which is part of what it is, understanding language cues, Natalie Eilbert did a good job.

Rovner: And no matter what you can be proud of your dad, particularly when he’s just been nominated to run for vice president. All right, my extra credit this week is from The New York Times. It’s called “Hot Summer Threatens Efficacy of Mail-Order Medications.” And it’s something I’ve been thinking about for a while because packages get subjected to major extremes of temperature in both the summer and the winter.

Indeed, now we have studies that show particularly that heat can degrade the efficacy and safety of some medications. One new study that embedded data-logging thermometers in packages found that those packages spent more than two-thirds of their transit time outside the recommended temperature range.

While the FDA has very strict temperature guidelines for shipping and storing medications between manufacturers and wholesalers and pharmacies, once it leaves the pharmacy it’s apparently up to each state to regulate. Just one more unexpected consequence of climate change.

OK, that is our show. As always, if you enjoy the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’d appreciate it if you left us a review; that helps other people find us, too. Special thanks as always to our technical guru, Francis Ying, and our editor, Emmarie Huetteman. Also, as always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org, or you can still find me at X, I’m @jrovner. Shefali, where are you these days?

Luthra: I am on the former Twitter platform @shefalil.

Rovner: Alice?

Ollstein: On X @aliceollstein.

Rovner: Joanne?

Kenen: On X @JoanneKenen and on Threads @JoanneKenen1.

Rovner: Before we go, a quick note about our schedule. We are taking next week off. I’m going to the beach. The week after that, we’ll have a very special show from The Texas Tribune TribFest in Austin. We’ll be back with our regular panel and all the news we might’ve missed on Sept. 12. Until then, be healthy.

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This story can be republished for free (details).

A federal lawsuit in Texas against Planned Parenthood has a web of ties to conservative activist Leonard Leo, whose decades-long effort to steer the U.S. court system to the right overturned Roe v. Wade, yielding the biggest rollback of reproductive health access in half a century.

Brought by an anonymous whistleblower and later joined by Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton, the suit alleges the Planned Parenthood Federation of America and three Planned Parenthood affiliates defrauded the Texas and Louisiana Medicaid programs by collecting $17 million for services provided while it fought state efforts to remove it as an approved provider.

The suit claims violations of the False Claims Act, an obscure but powerful law protecting the government from fraud, and seeks $1.8 billion in penalties from Planned Parenthood, according to a motion that lawyers for the whistleblower filed in federal court in 2023.

The lawsuit builds on efforts over years by the religious right and politicians who oppose abortion to deliver blows to Planned Parenthood — which provides sexual and reproductive health care at nearly 600 sites nationwide — now bolstered by Leo’s work reshaping the American judiciary.

Anti-abortion groups and their allies secured a generational victory in 2022 when the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade, which ended the constitutional right to abortion and paved the way for bans or severe restrictions in 20 states. The court challenge in Texas demonstrates how the forces behind the end of Roe threaten access to other health and family planning services.

The Planned Parenthood clinics being sued do not provide abortions. They are in Texas and Louisiana, which banned nearly all abortions, respectively, in 2021 and 2022.

Leo, an anti-abortion Catholic, is connected to the key players in the Texas lawsuit — the whistleblower plaintiff, an attorney general, and the judge — according to a KFF Health News review of tax records, court documents from multiple lawsuits, statements to lawmakers, and website archives.

Leo provided legal counsel to the anti-abortion group at its center, and he has financial and other connections to Paxton.

They filed the case in federal court in Amarillo, Texas, where Matthew Kacsmaryk is the only judge. He is a longtime member of the Federalist Society, the conservative legal juggernaut for which Leo has worked for over 25 years in various capacities and currently serves as co-chair.

Kacsmaryk’s rulings have curtailed access to reproductive health since the Senate confirmed him in 2019. He suspended the FDA’s approval of mifepristone, a drug used in medication abortion, propelling the issue to the Supreme Court, which ultimately threw out the case. In another case, Kacsmaryk ruled to limit young people’s access to birth control through a federal family planning program.

Leo did not respond to questions for this article and a spokesperson declined to comment. Through a court spokesperson, Kacsmaryk declined to comment for this article.

The anonymous whistleblower in 2021 accused the Planned Parenthood Federation of America and Planned Parenthood affiliates of defrauding the Medicaid programs of Texas and Louisiana. Paxton, who has repeatedly acted to thwart abortion rights and joined the case in 2022, alleges in the lawsuit that clinics received payments they weren’t entitled to from Texas Medicaid from early 2017 to early 2021 as the state was pushing to end Planned Parenthood’s status as a Medicaid provider. Louisiana and the Department of Justice have not joined the complaint.

The lawsuit’s origins go back a decade. The anonymous whistleblower, between 2013 and 2015, “conducted an undercover investigation to determine whether Planned Parenthood’s fetal tissue procurement practices were continuing, and if they were legal and/or ethical,” according to the whistleblower’s complaint filed in 2021.

The explanation mimics how the Center for Medical Progress, a California-based anti-abortion group founded by activist David Daleiden in 2013, has publicly described its work. “The Human Capital project is a 30-month-long investigative journalism study by The Center for Medical Progress, documenting how Planned Parenthood sells the body parts of aborted babies,” the group states on its website.

In a November 2022 court order, Kacsmaryk said the private party initiating the lawsuit is “the president of CMP,” the title Daleiden held at that time, according to a Center for Medical Progress tax filing.

The Center for Medical Progress and Daleiden did not respond to requests for comment.

By law, federal funds can’t pay for abortions unless the pregnancy threatens the life of a woman or is the result of rape or incest, but the program reimburses for other care such as contraception, screenings for sexually transmitted infections, and cancer screenings. Medicaid, which provides health coverage for people with low incomes, is jointly financed by states and the federal government.

According to its 2022-23 annual report, Planned Parenthood affiliate clinics provided 9.13 million health care services to 2.05 million patients nationally in 2022. Testing and treatment for sexually transmitted infections accounted for about half of those services, contraception amounted to a quarter, and abortions constituted 4%.

Planned Parenthood Gulf Coast, which operates clinics in Texas and Louisiana, is among the branches Paxton and the whistleblower are suing. From July 2022 to June 2023, its clinics provided patients more than 86,000 tests for sexually transmitted infections, 44,000 visits for birth control, and nearly 7,000 cancer screening and prevention services, CEO Melaney Linton told KFF Health News.

“All of these services and more are at risk in this politically motivated lawsuit,” Linton said. The lawsuit’s allegations “are false. Planned Parenthood did not commit Medicaid fraud.”

Linton has said the lawsuit’s purpose is clear: “trying to shut Planned Parenthood down.”

Texas terminated Planned Parenthood’s Medicaid participation in March 2021. Until then, affiliates “were entitled to receive reimbursement” for services to Medicaid patients because their provider agreements with Texas’ Medicaid program were valid, attorneys for the Planned Parenthood clinics wrote in a February 2023 court filing in support of their motion for summary judgment.

Louisiana has not removed Planned Parenthood from its Medicaid program.

Leo served as legal counsel to the Center for Medical Progress, according to documents produced as part of a separate lawsuit Planned Parenthood filed in federal court in California against the anti-abortion group. Among those, a July 2018 document lists 25 emails Leo and Daleiden traded in June and July 2015, including in the days before the anti-abortion group released its first video.

Paxton’s ties to Leo can be traced back at least a decade to when the former state senator and rising conservative star was about to begin his first term as attorney general.

In 2014, Leo, then executive vice president of the Federalist Society, was a rare non-Texan named to Paxton’s attorney general transition advisory team. Tax filings show that the Concord Fund, one of several Leo-linked groups that spend money to influence elections and aren’t required to disclose their donors, gave $20.3 million from July 2014 through June 2023 to the Republican Attorneys General Association, the political nonprofit that works to elect Republicans as states’ top law enforcement officers. Known as RAGA, the group funneled more than $1.2 million to Paxton’s campaign over three election cycles from 2014 to 2022, Texas campaign finance records show.

Texas government officials knew the state was reimbursing Planned Parenthood clinics for medical services from 2017 to 2021, which renders the state’s argument that clinics violated the False Claims Act “without merit,” said Jacob Elberg, a professor at Seton Hall Law School and an expert in health care fraud.

The law is intended for situations “where essentially someone submits a claim for payment or keeps money that they’re not entitled to where they have information that the government doesn’t have,” Elberg said. “And they essentially know that if the government knew the truth, the government wouldn’t pay them or would be demanding money back.”

But with Planned Parenthood, “everything involved here happened out in the open,” Elberg said. “They were submitting bills and the government knew what was going on and was paying those bills.”

The plaintiffs’ arguments are a “tortured use” of the False Claims Act, said Sarah Saldaña, a former U.S. attorney for the Northern District of Texas.

“Things like this, which have these obvious political overtones, tend to undermine further the view of the public of the judicial courts system,” Saldaña said.

The office of the attorney general did not respond to requests for comment.

Anti-abortion groups support the Paxton lawsuit even though abortion is essentially outlawed in the Lone Star State. Planned Parenthood “is still a pro-abortion organization,” said John Seago, president of Texas Right to Life. Even though Planned Parenthood provides other care, “all of those services are tainted by their pro-abortion mindset,” he said.

“Planned Parenthood is a danger to Texans. We wish that Planned Parenthood didn’t have a single location within our state,” Seago said. “Whenever the state pays Planned Parenthood to do something, even if it’s a good service, we are building up their brand and giving them more reach into our Texas communities.”

Roughly three dozen Planned Parenthood clinics in Texas continue to provide non-abortion services like birth control and STI screenings. The $1.8 billion the whistleblower is seeking is equivalent to nearly 90% of Planned Parenthood’s annual revenue, according to its most recent annual report.

The Campaign Against Planned Parenthood

The Center for Medical Progress was little known in 2015 when it began releasing videos containing explosive allegations that Planned Parenthood was illegally selling tissue from aborted fetuses, which Planned Parenthood denies.

The group and Daleiden had ties to powerful anti-abortion organizations. They include Live Action, where Daleiden worked before creating the Center for Medical Progress, and Operation Rescue, the Kansas-based group that staged demonstrations against George Tiller’s abortion clinic in that state before a gunman killed the physician in 2009.

“The evidence I am gathering deeply implicates Planned Parenthood affiliates across the country in multiple felonies and can trigger severe legal and financial consequences for PP and their associates, while providing new justifications for state defunding efforts and turning public opinion against Planned Parenthood and abortion,” Daleiden wrote in a May 2013 email produced as part of the litigation Planned Parenthood brought in California. The subject line: “Meeting to Take Down PP.”

Texas tried to remove Planned Parenthood clinics from its Medicaid program following the center’s release of the undercover videos, a move that was part of a larger political firestorm. Roughly a dozen states launched investigations into the reproductive health provider, and Republicans in Congress renewed calls to strip Planned Parenthood of government funding.

Paxton made his feelings clear about abortion as he pursued an investigation of Planned Parenthood in Texas. During a July 29, 2015, legislative hearing, he said “the true abomination in all of this is the institution of abortion.”

“We are rightfully horrified by what we’ve seen on these videos,” Paxton said. “However these videos also serve as a larger reminder that, as a society, we’ve turned a blind eye to the gruesome horrors that occur in abortion clinics across America every single day. They remind us that this industry as a whole has lost the perspective of humanity.”

Planned Parenthood denied selling fetal tissue and other claims in the videos, some of which contained graphic footage. It said the videos were “deceptive” and heavily edited to be misleading. A grand jury in Texas cleared Planned Parenthood of wrongdoing.

Daleiden worked on the center’s “Human Capital Project” for years, receiving advice from Leo and his associates, according to the Center for Medical Progress’ website, and Daleiden’s email correspondence and other documents produced as part of the separate lawsuit in federal court in California.

The July 2018 document filed as part of the litigation in California describes emails between Leo and Daleiden as “providing legal communication with counsel regarding legal planning” and “for counsel to provide legal advice regarding investigative journalism methods and the legality of fetal tissue procurement practices,” among other descriptions. Daleiden sent one email to Leo “regarding legal planning” on July 13, 2015, the day before the Center for Medical Progress released its first video.

A November 2018 letter from the Center for Medical Progress’ lawyers stated “CMP was receiving legal advice” from Leo, as well as other conservative lawyers and organizations. Lawyers representing the center and Daleiden in a December 2018 legal filing said Leo “provided legal advice on how to ensure successful prosecutions of the criminal actors which CMP identified.”

In its defense, Planned Parenthood has said it billed the Texas Medicaid program for reimbursement for “lawfully provided” services from February 2017 to March 2021 as a participating Medicaid provider in the state.

In 2015 and 2017, federal courts in Louisiana and Texas blocked those states from terminating Planned Parenthood’s Medicaid provider agreements. Judge John deGravelles of the U.S. District Court for the Middle District of Louisiana said the state was prohibited “from suspending Medicaid payments to [Planned Parenthood Gulf Coast] for services rendered to Medicaid beneficiaries.”

The 5th Circuit Court of Appeals in November 2020 vacated the Texas and Louisiana injunctions, but the court never weighed in on clawing back Medicaid funds that had been paid to clinics. Texas terminated Planned Parenthood in March 2021, following a state court ruling.

Texas and the whistleblower argue that, once the court injunctions were lifted, Planned Parenthood’s termination from each state’s Medicaid program became effective years earlier — 2015 in Louisiana and 2017 in Texas — due to the dates that state officials gave clinics final notice.

Planned Parenthood has argued that it is under no obligation to return payments received while injunctions were in place. Kacsmaryk disagrees. In a recently unsealed summary judgment order in the case, the judge wrote that Planned Parenthood clinics “had an obligation to repay the government payments they received as a matter of law.”

The order was unsealed after attorneys for the Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press intervened. The committee argued the public has a presumptive and constitutional right to access judicial records, and that Kacsmaryk’s stated concerns — which included the tainting of a potential jury pool or jeopardizing the safety of those involved in the lawsuit — didn’t justify keeping the document secret.

Kacsmaryk’s brief justification for sealing the document, contained in the order itself, “was very thin,” said Katie Townsend, legal director for the Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press.

She said his decision to seal such an important document was “highly unusual” and “very troubling.”

“Those orders are almost always completely public,” she said.

What Paxton Gains

Paxton has publicly toyed with the idea of pursuing federal office, and former President Donald Trump has said he’d consider him for U.S. attorney general should Trump return to the White House.

For Republicans in Texas, there are political benefits to going after Planned Parenthood, said Mark Jones, a political scientist at Rice University in Houston. “Doing anything punitive against Planned Parenthood and anything that would reduce the ability of Planned Parenthood to be active and effective in Texas is going to be greeted with near-universal consensus within the Republican primary electorate,” Jones said. “There’s no downside to it.”

The Republican Attorneys General Association, which can accept unlimited political donations that it distributes to candidates, is a Paxton supporter. Campaign finance records show it gave more than $730,000 to Paxton’s attorney general campaigns in 2014 and 2018.

Tax filings show that the Marble Freedom Trust, a political nonprofit where Leo serves as trustee and chair, gave the Concord Fund $100.9 million from May 2020 through April 2023. During the 2022 election cycle, the Concord Fund gave $6.5 million to RAGA, which then contributed $500,000 to Paxton’s campaign. It was tied as the highest contribution to the Texas attorney general, matched by a $500,000 contribution from a political action committee backed by conservative Texas billionaires, according to Transparency USA, a nonprofit that tracks spending in state politics.

RAGA has praised Leo’s role, calling him its “greatest champion.”

“Leonard Leo has helped shape the trajectory of RAGA and the conservative legal movement more than anyone else. As RAGA’s greatest champion, Leonard Leo reimagined the role of the state attorney general and promoted men and women dedicated to the persistence of the rule of law and the original meaning of the Constitution,” reads a RAGA website post from 2019 that has since been deleted.

“You want access to Leo because Leo gives you access to money,” said Chris Toth, former executive director of the National Association of Attorneys General.

In many conservative states like Texas, Toth said, “the issue is worrying about getting primaried. And that is where playing nice with Leonard Leo and the Concord Fund come in because if you’re on their side, basically, you’re going to have no problem getting reelected.”

The Concord Fund gave $4 million to RAGA between July 1, 2022, and June 30, 2023, four times what it gave the prior fiscal year.

Abortion rights supporters have warned that they anticipate ongoing reproductive health battles in Texas and beyond, with access to contraception, fertility services, and other types of care under threat.

As an example, some point to the Griswold v. Connecticut decision from 1965, in which the Supreme Court legalized the use of contraception among married couples. The high court ruled that a state law violated a constitutional right to privacy, a rationale that was central to Roe v. Wade eight years later.

In a 2017 speech at the Acton Institute, a conservative think tank, Leo criticized Griswold as a decision amounting to “the creation of rights found nowhere in the text or structure of the Constitution.”

The Planned Parenthood lawsuit in Texas is expected to go to trial, potentially this year. The central question is whether Planned Parenthood knowingly withheld money owed to the government.

All the while the public is expressing greater uncertainty about rights once considered constitutionally guaranteed. In a KFF poll conducted in February, 1 in 5 adults said the right to use contraception is threatened and likely to be overturned.

Fewer than half of adults considered it to be secure.

KFF Health News is a national newsroom that produces in-depth journalism about health issues and is one of the core operating programs at KFF—an independent source of health policy research, polling, and journalism. Learn more about KFF.

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Enfrenta los desafíos de ser una estudiante de primer año de secundaria, aunque también está emocionada de reencontrarse con sus amigos y volver a bailar y a jugar voleibol. Incluso podría unirse al equipo de lucha libre para ganarse el respeto en la escuela.

Pero el pasado sigue presente.

En una reunión del 4 de julio, un amigo de la familia llevó auriculares que amortiguan el ruido, por si los fuegos artificiales eran demasiado para ella. A principios del verano, Gabriella tuvo dificultades para ver la colección de armas de un pariente, especialmente las pistolas. Y comenzó a hiperventilar cuando vio la herida en el dedo de un amigo de la familia que se había cortado accidentalmente: la vista de la sangre le recordó a Lisa Lopez-Galván, quien murió por una herida de bala afuera de Union Station, la única fatalidad ese día.

Su madre, Bridget Barton, dijo que Gabriella ha tenido una actitud más dura desde el desfile. “Ha perdido algo de suavidad, algo de dulzura”, observó.

Los niños son particularmente vulnerables al estrés de la violencia con armas de fuego, y 10 de las 24 que sufrieron heridas de bala en el desfile del 14 de febrero tenían menos de 18 años. Muchos más niños como Gabriella experimentaron el trauma de primera mano. Enfrentan miedo, ira, problemas de sueño e hipersensibilidad a las multitudes y los ruidos.

Una adolescente de 15 años que recibió disparos en la mandíbula y el hombro prácticamente dejó la escuela por un tiempo, y los ataques de pánico diarios también le impidieron asistir a la escuela de verano.

Un niño de 11 años que recibió un disparo describió sentirse enojado en la escuela por razones que no podía explicar. Una niña de 5 años que estaba sobre los hombros de su padre cuando le dispararon entra en pánico cada vez que su papá se siente enfermo, temiendo que le hayan disparado de nuevo.

“No es la misma niña. Quiero decir, definitivamente no lo es”, dijo Erika Nelson, madre de Mireya, de 15 años, quien tiene cicatrices en la mandíbula y la cara. “Nunca sabes cuándo va a estallar. Nunca sabes. Podrías decir algo o alguien podría mencionar algo que le recuerde ese día”.

En 2020, las armas superaron a los accidentes automovilísticos como la principal causa de muerte de niños, pero un número mucho mayor sufren heridas de balas y sobreviven. La investigación sugiere que los niños sufren lesiones por armas de fuego no fatales entre dos y cuatro veces más a menudo de lo que son asesinados con armas.

Científicos dicen que los efectos a largo plazo de la violencia armada en los niños se investigan poco y son mal comprendidos. Pero el daño es generalizado. Investigadores de Harvard y del Hospital General de Massachusetts encontraron que durante el primer año después de una lesión por arma de fuego, los sobrevivientes infantiles experimentaron un aumento del 117% en trastornos del dolor, del 68% en afecciones psiquiátricas y del 144% en adicciones. Los efectos en la salud mental se extienden a madres, padres y hermanos.

Para muchos afectados por el tiroteo en Kansas City, Missouri, los desencadenantes comenzaron de inmediato.

“Me enojo fácilmente”

A solo 10 días que Samuel Arellano fuera baleado en el desfile, fue a otro gran evento deportivo.

Samuel fue invitado a un partido de baloncesto masculino de la Universidad de Kansas en el Allen Fieldhouse en Lawrence. Durante un descanso del partido, con una cámara de video apuntando a Samuel y a sus padres, Jalen Wilson, ex estrella de KU, apareció en la pantalla y se dirigió a él directamente.

“Escuché tu historia”, dijo Wilson, que ahora juega en la NBA, desde la pantalla gigante. “Estoy muy agradecido de que estés aquí hoy, y es una bendición que podamos tenerte para brindarte el amor y apoyo que realmente mereces”.

Wilson pidió a los 16,000 fans presentes que se pusieran de pie y aplaudieran a Samuel. Mientras la multitud aplaudía y un locutor exclamaba que era un “joven valiente”, Samuel miró a sus padres, luego al suelo, sonriendo tímidamente.

Pero minutos después, cuando el partido se reanudó, Samuel comenzó a llorar y tuvo que salir del auditorio con su madre, Abigail.

“Cuando se puso bastante ruidoso, fue cuando comenzó a desmoronarse de nuevo”, dijo su padre, Antonio. “Así que ella tuvo que salir con él por un momento. Así que cualquier lugar ruidoso, si es demasiado fuerte, lo afecta”.

Samuel, que cumplió 11 años en marzo, fue baleado a la altura de las costillas en su lado derecho. Ahora, la cicatriz en su espalda es apenas perceptible, pero los efectos persistentes del tiroteo son evidentes. Está viendo a un terapeuta, al igual que su padre, aunque a Abigail le ha resultado difícil encontrar uno que hable español y aún no ha tenido una cita.

En las primeras semanas luego del tiroteo, Samuel tuvo problemas para dormir y a menudo se metía en la cama con su madre y su padre. Solía tener buenas notas, pero eso se volvió más difícil, dijo Abigail. Su personalidad ha cambiado, algo que a veces se ha manifestado en la escuela.

“Me enojo fácilmente”, dijo Samuel. “Nunca he sido así antes, pero si me dicen que me siente, me enojo. No sé por qué”.

Los niños traumatizados a menudo tienen dificultades para expresar emociones y pueden tener arrebatos de ira, según Michelle Johnson-Motoyama, profesora de trabajo social en la Universidad Estatal de Ohio.

“Estoy segura que para ese niño hay una sensación de tremenda injusticia por lo que sucedió”, dijo Johnson-Motoyama.

Especialmente justo después del tiroteo, Samuel tenía ataques de pánico y comenzaba a sudar, contó Antonio. Los terapeutas les dijeron que eso era normal. Pero los padres también lo mantuvieron alejado de su teléfono por un tiempo: había demasiado sobre el tiroteo en las noticias y en internet.

Abigail, que trabaja en un concesionaria de automóviles con Antonio, está ansiosa por ver a su hijo cambiar, por su sufrimiento y tristeza. También está preocupada por sus tres hijas, una de 16 años y gemelas de 13. Su padre, Victor Salas, que estaba con Samuel en el desfile, también estaba devastado después de los hechos.

“Estoy llorando y llorando y llorando por lo que pasó”, dijo Salas en español cuatro días después del desfile. “Porque fue un caos. Eso no significa que las familias no amen a su familia, pero todos huyeron para salvar sus propias vidas. Salvé la vida de mis nietos, pero ¿qué pasa con el resto de la gente? No estamos preparados”.

En el lado positivo, Samuel se sintió muy apoyado por la comunidad en Kansas City, Kansas. Muchas personas de su escuela se acercaron en los primeros días para visitarlo, amigos e incluso un ex conductor de autobús, que estaba llorando. Tiene una “habitación llena de dulces”, dijo Abigail, en su mayoría Skittles, su favorito.

En su cumpleaños, recibió una pelota de fútbol americano autografiada por Patrick Mahomes, mariscal de campo de los Kansas City Chiefs. Lo hizo llorar, algo que ocurre con bastante frecuencia, dijo su padre.

“Hay días buenos y malos, días más normales y fáciles, y luego hay días en los que la familia tiene que estar un poco más atenta y apoyarlo”, dijo Abigail en español. “Siempre ha sido extrovertido y hablador como su madre, pero eso ha cambiado desde el desfile”.

El 4 de julio, disparador de una semana

El 4 de julio fue particularmente angustiante para muchos de los jóvenes sobrevivientes y para sus familias. ¿Deberían comprar fuegos artificiales? ¿Querrían celebrar? ¿Por qué todos los petardos que explotan en el vecindario suenan como disparos?

Este año, Gabriella, de 14 años, necesitó la ayuda de su padrastro, Jason Barton, para encender sus fuegos artificiales, algo que normalmente hace con entusiasmo. En el desfile, como muchas personas, la familia Barton primero confundió el sonido de los disparos con fuegos artificiales.

Y Erika Nelson, madre soltera de Belton, Missouri, temía incluso mencionar la celebración a Mireya, quien siempre ha amado el Día de la Independencia. Eventualmente, Mireya dijo que no quería fuegos artificiales grandes este año y que solo quería que su madre los encendiera.

“Cualquier pequeño desencadenante, quiero decir, podría ser un ligero chasquido, y ella se tensaba”, dijo Erika Nelson.

Patty Davis, gerente de programas para el cuidado informado sobre el trauma en el hospital Children’s Mercy en Kansas City, dijo que incluso clientes suyos que estuvieron en el desfile pero no resultaron heridos todavía se estremecen ante los sonidos de sirenas u otros ruidos fuertes. Es una respuesta poderosa a la violencia armada en general, no solo al desfile.

“No es una respuesta exagerada”, dijo Davis. “De hecho, es muy natural para los jóvenes, y no tan jóvenes, que han experimentado algo similar o han presenciado violencia con armas de fuego”.

“No se trata de un trauma accidental, sino de un trauma perpetrado con fines violentos, que puede provocar un mayor nivel de ansiedad en las personas que lo viven, que se preguntan si volverá a suceder. ¿Y qué tan seguras están?”, agregó.

Reviviendo el instante

Los ruidos extraños, las luces brillantes y las multitudes pueden tomar desprevenidos a los niños y a sus padres.

En junio, Mireya Nelson estaba esperando a su hermana mayor después de un recital, con la esperanza de ver a un muchacho. Su madre quería ir, pero Mireya la hizo callar. “De repente, se escuchó un estruendo muy fuerte”, dijo Erika. “Se agachó y luego se levantó de un salto. Dijo: ‘¡Dios mío, me estaban disparando otra vez!’”. Mireya lo dijo tan fuerte que la gente se quedó mirando, así que fue el turno de Erika de hacerla callar y tratar de calmarla. “Le dije: ‘Mireya, está bien. Estás bien. Se les cayó una mesa. Solo están sacando cosas. Fue un accidente’”, explicó Erika.

Pasaron unos minutos hasta que el shock se disipó y más tarde Mireya se rió de la situación, pero Erika siempre está atenta.

La tristeza inicial de su hija (que veía películas durante horas y lloraba todo el tiempo) se ha transformado en descaro. Medio año después, Mireya bromea sobre el tiroteo, lo que destroza a su madre. Pero tal vez eso sea parte del proceso de sanación, dijo Erika.

Antes del 4 de julio, Mireya fue a Worlds of Fun, un gran parque de diversiones, y la pasó bien. Se sintió bien porque había guardias de seguridad por todas partes. También disfrutó de una visita a la oficina local del FBI con una amiga que estaba con ella el día del tiroteo.

Pero cuando alguien le sugirió ir al ballet, Mireya lo descartó rápidamente: está cerca de Union Station, el lugar del tiroteo. Ya no quiere ir al centro. Erika dijo que ha habido muchas citas médicas y dificultades económicas, y que su mayor frustración como madre es no poder arreglar las cosas para su hija.

“Tienen que seguir su propio camino, su propio proceso de curación. No puedo sacudirla, como diciéndole: ‘Vuelve a ser tú misma’”, dijo Erika. “Podría llevar meses, años. ¿Quién sabe? Podría ser el resto de su vida. Pero espero que pueda superarlo un poco”.

Piel de gallina en medio del calor sofocante

James Lemons notó un cambio en su hija de 5 años, Kensley, que estaba sobre sus hombros cuando le dispararon en el desfile.

Antes del tiroteo, Kensley era extrovertida y comprometida, dijo James, pero ahora está retraída, como si estuviera dentro de una burbuja y se hubiera desconectado de la gente.

A Kensley, las grandes multitudes y los policías le recuerdan al desfile. Ambos estuvieron presentes en una graduación de secundaria a la que asistió la familia este verano, y Kensley solo quería irse. James la llevó a un campo de fútbol vacío, donde, dijo, se le puso la piel de gallina y se quejó de tener frío a pesar del calor sofocante.

La hora de dormir es un problema particular para la familia Lemons. Kensley ha estado durmiendo con sus padres. Otro hijo, Jaxson, de 10 años, ha tenido pesadillas. Una noche, soñó que el tirador se acercaba a su padre y lo hacía tropezar, dijo Brandie Lemons, la madrastra de Jaxson.

Los niños más pequeños como Kensley expuestos a la violencia con armas de fuego tienen más probabilidades de desarrollar un trastorno de estrés postraumático que los niños mayores, según Johnson-Motoyama, de la Universidad Estatal de Ohio.

Davis, del Children’s Mercy en Kansas City, dijo que los niños cuyos cerebros no están completamente desarrollados pueden tener dificultades para dormir y comprender que están seguros en sus hogares por la noche.

James le compró a la familia un nuevo cachorro, un bulldog americano que ya pesa 32 libras, para ayudarlos a sentirse protegidos. “Busqué el pedigrí”, dijo, “Son muy protectores. Muy cariñosos”.

En busca de una salida

Para desahogarse después del tiroteo, Gabriella comenzó a boxear. Su madre, Bridget, dijo que le devolvió algo de la confianza y el control que había bajado después del desfile. “Me gusta golpear a la gente, no de una manera mala, lo juro”, dijo Gabriella en abril mientras moldeaba un protector bucal a sus dientes antes de irse a entrenar.

Sin embargo, desde entonces ha dejado de boxear, por lo que el dinero puede destinarse a un viaje a Puerto Rico con su clase de español. Están pagando $153 al mes durante 21 meses para cubrir el viaje. Las clases de boxeo costaban $60 al mes.

Bridget pensaba que el boxeo era una buena salida para la ira que le quedaba, pero a finales de julio Gabriella no estaba segura de si todavía tenía el impulso para contraatacar de esa manera. “El pasado es el pasado, pero todos vamos a pasar por cosas. ¿Tiene sentido?”, preguntó Gabriella.

“Estás bien en general, pero todavía tienes desencadenantes. ¿Es eso lo que quieres decir?”, preguntó su madre. “Sí”, respondió.

Después del tiroteo, Mireya Nelson probó las clases en línea, que no funcionaron bien. Los primeros días de la escuela de verano, Mireya tenía un ataque de pánico todos los días en el auto y su madre la llevaba de vuelta a casa.

Mireya quiere regresar a la escuela secundaria este otoño, y Erika es cautelosa. “Sabes, si vuelvo a la escuela, existe la posibilidad de que me disparen, porque en la mayoría de las escuelas hoy en día hay tiroteos”, recordó Erika que dijo su hija. “Y yo digo: ‘Bueno, no podemos pensar así. Nunca se sabe lo que va a pasar’”.

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Six months after Gabriella Magers-Darger’s legs were burned by sparks from a ricocheted bullet at the Kansas City Chiefs Super Bowl parade in February, the 14-year-old is ready to leave the past behind.

She is dreading the pitfalls of being a high school freshman, even as she looks forward to being back with friends and at color guard, dance, and volleyball. She might even join the wrestling team to get some respect at school.

But the past remains ever present.

At a July Fourth gathering, a family friend brought noise-canceling headphones in case the fireworks became too much. Earlier in the summer Gabriella had a hard time viewing a relative’s gun collection, the handguns in particular. And she hyperventilated when she saw a family friend’s finger after it was sliced by accident — the sight of blood reminds her of seeing a fatally wounded Lisa Lopez-Galvan minutes after she was shot outside Union Station, the only person killed that day.

Her mom, Bridget Barton, said Gabriella has had a chip on her shoulder since the parade.

“She’s lost some softness to her, some gentleness to her,” Barton said.

Children are particularly vulnerable to the stresses of gun violence, and 10 of 24 people injured by bullets at the Feb. 14 parade were under 18 years old. Countless more children like Gabriella experienced the trauma firsthand. They’ve endured fear, anger, sleep problems, and hypersensitivity to crowds and noises.

A 15-year-old girl who was shot through the jaw and shoulder effectively dropped out of school for a time and daily panic attacks kept her from summer school, too. An 11-year-old boy shot in the side described feeling angry at school for reasons he couldn’t explain. A 5-year-old girl who was on her father’s shoulders when he was hit by gunfire panics each time her dad feels sick, fearing he has been shot again.

“She’s not the same kid. I mean, she’s definitely not,” said Erika Nelson, mother of the 15-year-old, Mireya, who has scars on her jaw and face. “You never know when she’s going to snap. You never know. You might say something or someone might bring up something that reminds her of that day.”

Guns overtook motor vehicle accidents as the leading cause of death for children in 2020, but a far higher number of kids are hit by gunfire and survive. Research suggests that kids sustain nonfatal firearm injuries anywhere from two to four times more often than they are killed by guns.

Scientists say the long-term effects of gun violence on kids are little researched and poorly understood. But the harm is pervasive. Harvard and Massachusetts General Hospital researchers found that during the first year after a firearm injury, child survivors experienced a 117% increase in pain disorders, a 68% increase in psychiatric disorders, and a 144% increase in substance use disorders. The mental health effects spill over — to mothers, fathers, siblings.

For many affected by the shooting in Kansas City, Missouri, the triggers began right away.

‘I Get Mad Easily’

Just 10 days after Samuel Arellano was shot at the parade, he attended another big sporting event.

Samuel was invited to attend a University of Kansas men’s basketball game at Allen Fieldhouse in Lawrence. During a break in the game, with a video camera pointed at Samuel and his parents, former KU star Jalen Wilson appeared on the scoreboard and addressed him directly.

“I heard about your story,” Wilson, who now plays in the NBA, said on the big screen. “I’m so very thankful that you are here today and it is a blessing that we can have you to give you the love and support you truly deserve.”

Wilson asked the 16,000 fans in attendance to stand and give Samuel a round of applause. As the crowd clapped and an announcer bellowed about him being a “brave young man,” Samuel looked at his parents, then down at his feet, smiling shyly.

But minutes later when the game resumed, Samuel started to cry and had to leave the auditorium with his mom, Abigail.

“When it got pretty loud, that’s when he started breaking up again,” his dad, Antonio, said. “So she had to step out with him for a minute. So any loud places, if it’s too loud, it’s affecting him.”

Samuel, who turned 11 in March, was shot in the ribs on his right side. The scar on his back is barely noticeable now, but lingering effects from the parade shooting are obvious. He is seeing a therapist — as is his father, though Abigail has had a tough time finding a Spanish-speaking one and still hasn’t had an appointment.

Samuel had trouble sleeping in the first weeks after the shooting and often crawled in bed with his mom and dad. He used to get good grades, but that became more difficult, Abigail said. His personality has changed, which sometimes has shown up at school.

“I get mad easily,” Samuel said. “I [have] never been like this before but like, if they tell me to sit down, I get mad. I don’t know why.”

Traumatized children often have difficulty expressing emotions and may be given to outbursts of anger, according to Michelle Johnson-Motoyama, a professor of social work at Ohio State University.

“I’m sure for that child there is a sense of tremendous injustice about what happened,” Johnson-Motoyama said.

Especially right after the shooting, Samuel had panic attacks, Antonio said, and he’d break out in a sweat. Therapists told them that was normal. But the parents also kept him off his phone for a while, as there was so much about the shooting on the news and online.

Abigail, who works at a car dealership with Antonio, is anxious about seeing her son change, his suffering and sadness. She is also concerned for her three daughters, a 16-year-old and 13-year-old twins. Her father, Victor Salas, who was with Samuel at the parade, was also reeling in its aftermath.

“I’m crying and crying and crying about what happened,” Salas said in Spanish four days after the parade. “Because it was chaos. It doesn’t mean that families don’t love their family, but everyone took off to save their own lives. I saved my grandchildren’s lives, but what happens to the rest of the people? We’re not prepared.”

On the good side, Samuel felt very supported by the community in Kansas City, Kansas. Many people from his school stopped by in the first few days to visit, including friends and even a former bus driver, who was in tears. He has a “room full of candy,” Abigail said, mostly Skittles, his favorite.

An autographed football from Kansas City Chiefs quarterback Patrick Mahomes arrived on his birthday. It made him cry, his father said, which happens pretty often.

“There are good and bad days, days that are more normal and easier, and then there are days where the family has to be a little bit more aware and supportive,” Abigail said in Spanish. “He’s always been outgoing and talkative like his mom, but that has changed since the parade.”

Fourth of July a Weeklong Trigger

The Fourth of July was particularly harrowing for many of the young survivors and their families. Should they buy fireworks? Will they want to celebrate? And why do all the firecrackers going off in the neighborhood sound like gunshots?

Fourteen-year-old Gabriella needed help from her stepfather, Jason Barton, to light her fireworks this year, something she is ordinarily enthusiastic about doing herself. At the parade, like many people, the Barton family initially mistook the sound of gunfire for fireworks.

And Erika Nelson, a single mom in Belton, Missouri, feared even bringing up the holiday with Mireya, who has always loved Independence Day. Eventually Mireya said she didn’t want any big fireworks this year and wanted only her mom to set theirs off.

“Just any little trigger — I mean, it could be a light crackle — and she just clenched,” Erika Nelson said.

Patty Davis, a program manager for trauma-informed care at Children’s Mercy hospital in Kansas City, said even her clients who were at the parade but were not injured still flinch at the sounds of sirens or other loud noises. It’s a powerful response to gun violence, she said.

“So not just an accidental trauma,” she said, “but a trauma that was perpetrated for violent purposes, which can cause an increased level of anxiety for persons around that to wonder if it’s going to happen again. And how safe are they?”

Reliving Getting Shot

Random sounds, bright lights, and crowds can catch the kids and their parents off guard. In June, Mireya Nelson was waiting for her older sister after a dance recital, hoping to see a boy she knew give a flower to a girl everyone said he had a crush on. Her mom wanted to go, but Mireya shushed her.

“Then all of a sudden, there was a loud boom,” Erika said. “She dropped low to the ground. And then she jumped back up. She goes, ‘Oh my God, I was getting shot again!’”

Mireya said it so loudly people were staring, so it was Erika’s turn to shush her and try to soothe her.

“I was like, ‘Mireya, it’s OK. You’re all right. They dropped a table. They’re just moving stuff out. It was an accident,’” Erika said.

It took a few minutes for the shock to wear off and Mireya later giggled about it, but Erika is always on watch.

Her daughter’s early sadness — she watched movies for hours, crying throughout — has since changed to a cheekiness. Half a year later, Mireya will joke about the shooting, which tears her mother up. But maybe that is part of the healing process, Erika says.

Before the Fourth of July, Mireya went to Worlds of Fun, a large amusement park, and had a good time. She felt OK because there were security guards everywhere. She also enjoyed a visit to the local FBI office with a friend who was with her the day of the shooting. But when someone suggested a trip to the ballet, Mireya squashed it quickly — it’s near Union Station, the site of the shooting. She doesn’t want to go downtown anymore.

Erika said the doctor appointments and financial strains have been a lot to juggle and that her biggest frustration as a parent is that she’s not able to fix things for her daughter.

“They have to go their own way, their own process of healing. I can’t shake her, like, ‘Get back to yourself,’” Erika said. “It could take months, years. Who knows? It could be the rest of her life. But I hope that she can overcome a little bit of it.”

Goose Bumps in the Sweltering Heat

James Lemons noticed a change in his 5-year-old daughter, Kensley, who was on his shoulders when he was shot at the parade. Before the shooting Kensley was outgoing and engaged, James said, but now she is withdrawn, like she has closed off her bubble and disconnected from people.

Large crowds and police officers remind Kensley of the parade. Both were present at a high school graduation the family attended this summer, prompting Kensley to ask repeatedly to leave. James took her to an empty football field, where, he said, she broke out in goose bumps and complained of being cold despite the sweltering heat.

Bedtime is a particular problem for the Lemons family. Kensley has been sleeping with her parents. Another child, 10-year-old Jaxson, has had bad dreams. One night, he dreamt that the shooter was coming near his dad and he tripped him, said Brandie Lemons, Jaxson’s stepmom.

Younger children like Kensley exposed to gun violence are more likely to develop post-traumatic stress disorder than older children, according to Ohio State’s Johnson-Motoyama.

Davis, of Children’s Mercy in Kansas City, said children whose brains are not fully developed can have a hard time sleeping and understanding that they are safe in their homes at night.

James got the family a new puppy — an American bulldog that already weighs 32 pounds — to help them feel protected.

“I looked up the pedigree,” he said, “They’re real protective. They’re real loving.”

Searching for an Outlet to Let Off Steam

Gabriella took up boxing after the shooting. Her mother, Bridget, said it restored some of her confidence and control that dimmed after the parade.

“I like beating people up — not in a mean way, I swear,” Gabriella said in April as she molded a mouthguard to her teeth before leaving for training.

She has since stopped boxing, however, so the money can instead go toward a trip to Puerto Rico with her Spanish class. They’re paying $153 a month for 21 months to cover the trip. Boxing classes were $60 a month.

Bridget thought boxing was a good outlet for leftover anger, but by the end of July Gabriella wasn’t sure if she still had the drive to fight back that way.

“The past is the past but we’re still gonna all, like, go through stuff. Does that make sense?” Gabriella asked.

“You’re mostly OK but you still have triggers. Is that what you mean?” her mother asked.

“Yeah,” she replied.

After the shooting, Mireya Nelson tried online classes, which didn’t work well. The first few days of summer school, Mireya had a panic attack every day in the car and her mother took her home.

Mireya wants to return to high school this fall, and Erika is wary.

“You know, if I do go back to school, there’s a chance at school of being shot, because most schools nowadays get shot up,” Erika recalled her daughter saying. “And I’m like, ‘Well, we can’t think like that. You never know what’s gonna happen.’”

KFF Health News is a national newsroom that produces in-depth journalism about health issues and is one of the core operating programs at KFF—an independent source of health policy research, polling, and journalism. Learn more about KFF.

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